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Quasievil
24th October 2007, 16:39
Hi Everyone.

This is a explaination as to where we are at with the Campaign for the removal or modification of the Wire Barrier lane dividers known as Cheescutters.

Firstly some of the people that are involved with getting this underway (so you know who to contact) are

Spankme
Draco
Ixion
Zapf
Death
Quasievil

to date we (the above) have had a meeting to get things started. It needs to be said that we would like EVERYONE thats YOU to get right behind this campaign for the improvement of our safety on our roads.

We are doing the following.

1/ Organising a Protest ride (Saturday 3rd November)

Please look up the related threads and get involved.
This will involve the media such as TV3, and the Herald.
We need regional protests also, if anyone in Wellington and Christchurch is willing that would help alot to get the message through.

2/ Creating a specific website for a online petition and wording the petition
(thanks Hitcher)

This will be up shortly

3/ Directly contacting those with some clout, such as the Police, the Roading authorities, Local MP's, Local Councils and other Motorcycle clubs and organisations.

If you can help in this please do so, contact everyone and anyone in your community to tell them about the event, the petition and even invite them to the protest ride.

We will advise you as things develop but for now PLEASE PLEASE HELP us make the CHEESECUTTER PROTEST RIDE HUGE !!
this will work only if we have Numbers, thats bums on bikes in cars in trucks (whatever) we want people to get to this event to make a BIG statement !!

Please do everything possible to enable this to work, we have the Media already we must now have you.

if you have any ideas, or wish to contribute please contact anyone of the people above or discuss it below

Thanks

Mom
24th October 2007, 16:45
I am 200% behind any attempt to get these lethal things made safe or removed ASAP. A couple of thoughts I have had, there are a number of threads on here at the moment, some useful links to the protest ride thread on them would be good as I see some posting on other threads they will come, but have not registered. I will change my signature and include a link to the protest ride thread, maybe others can do the same?

A handy list of suitable people to e-mail/write to/phone would also be helpful.

Colapop
24th October 2007, 16:50
I agree. This is an issue that needs huge support. Can anyone help with a Wellington ride?
I'm a little reluctant to just go off half cocked and offer to organise a ride as I'd hate to stuff it up or have it only half done. I can contact some people (clubs shops etc) this week to gauge support or help... Anyone want to tell me what to say etc..?

Mom
24th October 2007, 16:53
I agree. This is an issue that needs huge support. Can anyone help with a Wellington ride?
I'm a little reluctant to just go off half cocked and offer to organise a ride as I'd hate to stuff it up or have it only half done. I can contact some people (clubs shops etc) this week to gauge support or help... Anyone want to tell me what to say etc..?

You know the issue big fella of cake baking prowess.......you know the Welly area. Find a starting point a bit out of town to gather, and choose a finishing point.......shit no, I will choose that......Beehive front lawn!

Peaceful, respectful ride of bikes making a point. As for what to say....point them here. Go on Col you know you can!

Romeo
24th October 2007, 17:11
Is there going to be any action in Christchurch?

MSTRS
24th October 2007, 17:23
I'm trying (yes yes I know) http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=59532

Ozzie
24th October 2007, 17:32
An idea on what we can do, so it is a unified well timed front is http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=59344.

As for contacts, the stuff I did at the time of the safe as stuff gave me a few contacts, Ixion has most of them as well, but will dig them up, just let who to PM them to (seriously busy with upgrades at work for the next couple of days, so can't do it myself).

I have my kids that weekend, but will endeavour to get a sitter and come on my bike, otherwise, I have a toyota twin cab ute, which might go well as TEC with a big fuck off sign on the back of it.

Thoughts?

Mom
24th October 2007, 17:35
I have a toyota twin cab ute, which might go well as TEC with a big fuck off sign on the back of it.

Thoughts?

Sounds mighty fine to me! I was talking about signs today, all of the riders wearing a netball type bib, with the recognised red circle with bar through a cheesecutter on it.....anyone else think that is a good idea?

Ozzie
24th October 2007, 18:11
Sounds mighty fine to me! I was talking about signs today, all of the riders wearing a netball type bib, with the recognised red circle with bar through a cheesecutter on it.....anyone else think that is a good idea?

For the Ute, there are possibly positions for 2, top one over the cab "WARNING - Cheese Ahead!" bottom, over the tail gate "R.I.P up the Cheese Cutters, not Motorcyclists"

xgnr
24th October 2007, 18:20
The BRONZ "ride to work" poster has been great... emailed to a number of folk and they print it out and it ends up on the work notice board.

I have the graphic design skills of my cat so ....

Happy to help out in any other way.

cheers

Stu

R6_kid
24th October 2007, 18:20
Why not add celebrities (sp) to the mix? Tawera Nikau, Ewan Gilmore... i'm sure there are more out there that ride as well.

Colapop
24th October 2007, 18:22
The Wellington ride may be a week later than the Auckland one.. I dunno.. I think that having as great a number of motorcyclists there as possible is the idea and I'd have to liaise with other rider organisations to get the word out there - Especially to end at Parliament. Does this mean that there has to be permits and stuff?

yungatart
24th October 2007, 18:29
I suggest that every group has a cage as TEC for these rides for safety's sake.

Cover it with signage, go to your local signwriter and ask for some corflute, which you can paint up with an appropriate message.

Remember that we need people on our side, we don't want to piss them off.

SM, Mstrs is happy to be the organiser for a HB protest, and has started a thread for this purpose. Local media also contacted.

sunhuntin
24th October 2007, 18:46
ill join either welly or hb, doesnt matter which. if they are held on different days, ill do both. duration depending, will need a bed somewhere for the night.

also willing to have a sign tied on the back providing it doesnt block or cover the essentials.

yungatart
24th October 2007, 18:49
ill join either welly or hb, doesnt matter which. if they are held on different days, ill do both. duration depending, will need a bed somewhere for the night.

also willing to have a sign tied on the back providing it doesnt block or cover the essentials.

Bed available (and booked) here, sunhuntin.

sunhuntin
24th October 2007, 18:53
cheers, yt! let me know the details when things are set in concrete.

paturoa
24th October 2007, 19:06
The BRONZ "ride to work" poster has been great
Stu

Yes please for a flyer / poster, I'll print a bunch and take them around the local bike shops, and post them up all over the place.

Edit: suggest 2 - one for the ride and a general one to convey the message.

Quasievil
24th October 2007, 19:17
All great stuff people, just a couple of things we want

Maximum numbers, especially in Auckland, this is a media game, we have to show them NUMBERS, so the more we can get into Auckland the better, so regional is good but not to regional ie if youre in Hamilton TGA , go to Auckland etc.

We need to also indicate firmly that we are not Hoons, we are people, mums Dads Sons Daughters and grandparents................. we are New Zealanders and we do not deserve to be cut into bits if we or someone else makes a mistake on the road.

Great stuff, lets get the thing working and lets show we are a force to be respected:Punk:

illusivemenace
24th October 2007, 19:49
ill join either welly or hb, doesnt matter which. if they are held on different days, ill do both. duration depending, will need a bed somewhere for the night.

also willing to have a sign tied on the back providing it doesnt block or cover the essentials.

im keen as to m8 and im sure i could drum up a few more wangus riders to

limbimtimwim
24th October 2007, 19:54
Sorry to fragment things; but a weekday would be better for impact down here. Parliament sits on the 6,7 and 8th of November.

But I also understand it will be harder to attract people on a weekday.

I suggest the 7th of November. I suggest the courtyard in front of the museum at 12:15. Leave 12:30, make our way to Courtnay Place, up Dixon St, onto Willis, down Lampton Quay and into Parliament. *Thousands* would see us then. Parliament begins session at 2pm. This way many can fit it into their lunch break so they have the least excuses for not coming.

I don't want to annoy anyone, but few are going to see us if we do it on a Saturday. And no politicians will have to see us.

I think someone has to approach the office of the Speaker to get permission to do stuff on Parliament grounds like this. Otherwise we risk being chucked out. I am happy to do this.

EDIT:I don't think this is a good idea any more. I now think that a weekend tour of the regions worst installations of cheese cutters would be a better idea. A unified nationwide protest will get more media attention.

I think save the ride to parliament for the delivery of the petition.

sunhuntin
24th October 2007, 19:56
im keen as to m8 and im sure i could drum up a few more wangus riders to

im gonna try and get the local trumpy club in behind as well... i think they are having their monthly ride this sunday, so might stop there before heading to levin, see if i can drum em up somewhat.

id like posters as well, i can print as many as needed, and then leave them with the triumph club to hand out during their ride. could also maybe hand them out at work to bikes who stop in that arent local as well.

illusive... come into the bp over springvale tomorrow between 3 and 7pm. would like to put a face to the name [im the chick that gets mistaken for a guy most of the time, lol.]

limbim... for the welly one, is the museum you mention te papa?

limbimtimwim
24th October 2007, 20:01
ilimbim... for the welly one, is the museum you mention te papa?Yes, space for hundreds out front.

sunhuntin
24th October 2007, 20:05
Yes, space for hundreds out front.

cheers... te papa, i can find without getting too badly lost, lmfao.

chanceyy
24th October 2007, 20:16
3rd nov suits for a welly run .. week later will be on the gissy ride ..

mid week is not do-able however for maximum impact at beehive it would be better to be a weekday .. however national coverage on a weekend will still get exposure

discotex
24th October 2007, 20:37
Yes please for a flyer / poster, I'll print a bunch and take them around the local bike shops, and post them up all over the place.

Edit: suggest 2 - one for the ride and a general one to convey the message.

+1 for a poster and/or flyer. There must be at least 20 bikes/scooters that park at work who may or may not be KB members but could be keen if they knew about it.

I'd be keen to place flyers on their bikes and on noticeboards around the place (if someone doesn't beat me to it).

Hitcher
24th October 2007, 21:26
These rallies are potentially going to be a major media events. It may pay to have a spokesperson/people prepped with soundbites and a few key messages about the campaign. Media will not only be interested in pictures of bikers en masse, they will also be after comments and personal experiences. It would be useful to make the media's jobs easier by having these lined up in advance, rather than having them wander round searching for useful comments.

Just some thoughts...

bugjuice
24th October 2007, 22:59
in, on, and with it any way shape or form i can

Ozzie
25th October 2007, 10:15
Do we have a confirmed start place yet?

There are a number of bikes parked at work, will do a quik note to leave on each bike to advise them of the plan, where / when, and refer to here for more detail.

Ozzie
25th October 2007, 12:26
diversion has started

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10471874

GIXser
25th October 2007, 14:31
Guys /girls, as much as i belive in this cause , and i want to play my part, i believe we are pushing shit uphill, a simple bike ride in protest aint gonna do it folks, it will all be forgotten about in a few days/weeks, whomever the organisers (spank,quasi ,Draco etc )you will have to come up with a long drawn out contigency plan to make people notice and to finnaly have some action taken by "the powers to be"
Like you i believe they need to be removed/replaced/modified etc, but it aint gonna happen with a "ride"!!

sorry" my two cents" and happy to play my part in further planning!!

Colapop
25th October 2007, 15:33
The UK Motorcycle Action Group have been instrumental in changing and challenging laws in the UK. Perhaps if no-one said anything then nothing would be done.

http://www.mag-uk.org/index2.html

Ozzie
25th October 2007, 15:50
What about using the ride to raise money for something like either WP rescue, or even an independent enquiry into fixes or something.

Might add to the profile of the ride, and get people to see we are serious

Sanx
25th October 2007, 21:34
What about using the ride to raise money for something like either WP rescue, or even an independent enquiry into fixes or something.

Might add to the profile of the ride, and get people to see we are serious

Raising money for the Westpac Trust Helicopter (or local equivalent in Wgn or Chch) would be a great idea. Not only are us 'dirty anti-social' bikers trying to get something changed but helping a damn good cause into the bargain.

swbarnett
25th October 2007, 22:47
What about using the ride to raise money for something like either WP rescue, or even an independent enquiry into fixes or something.

Might add to the profile of the ride, and get people to see we are serious
Not a good idea. Let's not give people something to take their attention away from our core message.

Colapop
26th October 2007, 07:51
More from M.A.G.
Campaign material - here (http://campaign.publicaffairsbriefing.co.uk/home.aspx?cid=8de9ecd3-d68c-4358-846f-182cd8db567d)
These barriers have not been banned in the UK but they are being lobbied hard to be removed and banned.

Indiana_Jones
26th October 2007, 11:54
Just keep doing protest/rides until they fix the problem

-Indy

MSTRS
26th October 2007, 13:58
Another way of trying to get the message across is to enlist the aid of each newspaper's editor....this was my attempt.

Dear Sir

I spoke the other day with Roger Moroney in his capacity as both motoring reporter and motorcyclist. I hope he has realised the depth of concern that most motorcyclists have over (so-called) safety barriers, in particular Armco and especially the WRB (cheesecutter) type. A young man (Daniel Evans) was killed over Labour W/e after hitting one of these and it has sparked a huge outcry by motorcyclists.

The problem with these two types is mostly the posts that support them. The W-section metal of the Armco allows a body to slip under and hit the support posts, and the wires of the WRB type only increase the gaps for bodies to be sliced'n'diced.

For 20+ years BRONZ (Bike Riders Of NZ) have been lobbying Transit to install barriers that do not increase the risk of injury to motorcyclists (or anyone not inside a vehicle). To date, there has been no success in this campaign, despite all the warnings of un-necessary injury or death. In recent years, the WRB type have been increasingly utilised in many areas around the country, although thankfully not in HB. These barriers are an almost guaranteed death sentence for any body that strikes one, even at speeds of as little as 70kph. Many other countries have banned their use, or have fitted 'skirts' of some sort to cover the posts and wires.

The WRB type should also be of great concern to car drivers, because they are designed to keep a vehicle from crossing into the path of oncoming traffic yet will flex 3 metres or more out of line, which renders them useless when installed directly down the centre of an ordinary 2-way road.

I wonder if you would be interested in featuring this subject in your paper, or perhaps doing an editorial?

If you wish to check out these links, you will find ample evidence of arguments against and ways to 'fix' the problem.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=59344

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=56622

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=59348

www.network.mag-uk.org/barriers/barrierspeakdistrict.html

Please don't hesitate to ring me if you need to know anything else, and I hope that you will give this situation as much publicity as possible.

Regards

RiderInBlack
26th October 2007, 14:29
Anyone got some good Slogans for "Bumper Stickers"?
Something like:

Our lives are important too, make road barriers safer for all.

Bike-aholic
26th October 2007, 16:17
Mobil Mercer or Bp and Caltex Bombay would be a good stating point.

Any thoughts on contacting the new Mayors for their support.

If it is a fine day an end point where they finish the round the bays it's a big open feild.

Just my 2 cents ;)

WelshWizard
26th October 2007, 23:25
Kat and I will be on the Auckland one

The thing is to remember that you aren't allowed to play Union or League Rugby without the goalposts being wrapped up to protect the players from injury, we as riders are travelling faster than players can run, even if we are travelling at 50KPH, if we have been unseated from the bike for some reason if we come into cotact with these Cheese Cutters will cause major injuries, the wires used because of the way they are made are no more than a saw, so even slow speeds will cause major injury.

To be most affective the rides need to be timed to occur at the same time on the same day, My personal reaction to the run is that in later November is better as it will allow more time to organise and coordinate to gain the most affect.


THIS PROTEST MUST MAKE PEOPLE THINK THEN REACT AGAINST THE CHEESE CUTTERS AND NOT BLINDLY BELIEVE WHAT THEY ARE TOLD AS PER THE STATEMENT BY LTNZ AFTER THE TV3 NEWS UPDATE, ONLY TO HAVE A TRUCK GO STRAIGHT THOSE A CHEESE CUTTER RESULTING IN TWO DEATH, (IN TOTAL CONTRADICTION TO WHAT THEY STATED ON TV3)


THESE THINGS ARE KNOWN TO KILL AND MAIM, AND KNOWING THIS ONLY PUTS YOU IN THE SAME CLASS AS A MURDERER IF IT'S IN YOUR POWER TO DO SOME THING ABOUT THEM.


Also has anyone approached any Motorcycle Cop to find out if they will ride when off duty, they are as much at risk as every other biker, and if questioned must have the same fear of these Cheese Cutters as us.

Media coverage is going to be there, it must not be a damp squid, only by getting the largest possible amount of bikers to ride will we have any chance of getting our message across so those that don't ride but are feeling safe in their cars will take notice,

Is there any way we could get some posters made up that show graphic scene of the affects of these Cheese cutters out there to mark the route being used, it's time to shock the general public into realising these things are killing us, not just bikers but car and truck drivers to, once the car drivers realise they are also at risk then a petition will gain strength.


Sorry I am rambling so will end, even though I have much I would like to say.

Mountlocal1
27th October 2007, 06:18
I agree. As much planning as possible needs to go into this. And a route that is as public as possible without causing danger to the riders involved. Someone in Auckland on Thursday made a comment that there should be one ride. I myself would ride to Wellington or Auckland. Wherever our voices are going to be heard. I think some local Auckland riders need to sit down and nut this one out..

candor
27th October 2007, 11:15
For newspapers you need pics.

I don't know Auckland but I reckon that if someone (news photographer or KBer got a shot of bikes going by the Haywards cutters that could be just the ticket. Might need transits permission or co-operation on that one just to stop somewhere and get positioned for snapping the grater / bikers shot?! :argue:

Lil_Byte
27th October 2007, 11:53
Just to ask a question here. The reading I have done indicates that the damage is most likely to occurer when you hit the supporting posts in the "cheese cutter" barrier.

So you get hurt when you hit something solid.

The question I have is, how is it different hitting a concrete centre barrier at 100kph+ as opposed to the cheese grater post.

My gut feeling is I would rather chance hitting a post on these barriers that the concrete ones, as there is no gaps in the concrete.

Is this problem a perceptial one rather than a real one?

Ozzie
27th October 2007, 12:27
Just to ask a question here. The reading I have done indicates that the damage is most likely to occurer when you hit the supporting posts in the "cheese cutter" barrier.

So you get hurt when you hit something solid.

The question I have is, how is it different hitting a concrete centre barrier at 100kph+ as opposed to the cheese grater post.

My gut feeling is I would rather chance hitting a post on these barriers that the concrete ones, as there is no gaps in the concrete.

Is this problem a perceptial one rather than a real one?

My understanding is......

It comes down to speed and angle.

If you hit a concrete barrier on a slight angle, you will slide along it, similar to hitting the road.

Hit the cheese cutters, and posts under armco for that matter, you will hit one or more, they will grab, and rip.

Hit the wire, it will cut.

MSTRS
27th October 2007, 12:48
My understanding is......

It comes down to speed and angle.

If you hit a concrete barrier on a slight angle, you will slide along it, similar to hitting the road.

Hit the cheese cutters, and posts under armco for that matter, you will hit one or more, they will grab, and rip.

Hit the wire, it will cut.

That is correct. The angle of impact makes a big difference, but in normal (so to speak) circumstances 'you' will hit at a shallow angle and slide along a smooth, unbroken surface.

Bike-aholic
27th October 2007, 13:04
A mate of mine his friend came off his bike on the southern motorway at 160kph and lived, suffered a broken collar bone, broken hip with pins, broke wrist and ankle. The injuries were from the concrete barrier impact and slid down the road if it had been the cheese cutter barrier he wouldnt be here today. He was not intending to speed the throttle jammed wide opened and wasn't the most experienced rider and didnt think quick enough to hit the kill switch or pull the clutch in. The bike ended up miles further on in a blown up heap.

WelshWizard
27th October 2007, 13:20
The wire ropes used are course braided steal wire, sliding along them allows it to act as a saw, even if it was fine braided wire it will cut, it has the same effect as the wire used on a cheese board.

You can buy a saw blade that is similar to the way these wires are strung but on a smaller scale.


the wire will also help guide you into the post, most are set high enough for part of your body to go under and over them so you will hit the post. even the corrugated barriers have the same problem of guiding the rider into the post.

On a motorway you are most likely to hit any barrier at a glancing angle rather than straight into on, if a car has hit you side ways into a barrier so that you impact straight on, no one in their right mind is going to expect to survive, design wise both wire and corrugated look at impact from car or lorry and have not taken into account motorcyclist, we ride on two wheels we are not inside a metal cage, when we go down with our bikes, to avoid hitting the bike which may be spinning or tumbling we try to roll away from it, we have a choice roll into other traffic and risk being run over or rolling to where it should be safe to do so, the human body when lying down is not the height and size of a car, and is therefore put at risk when impacting a wire or corrugated barrier, design wise the wire ropes could have the design altered to prevent any contact with a post and also stop you gaining the affect of the sawing action of the wire ropes, while still maintaining the same amount of protection it offers cars (it would not reduce the effect on cars, they are still at the same risk, but motorcyclist could be given more chance of survival by proper design to allow for all road users safety)





The question I have is, how is it different hitting a concrete centre barrier at 100kph+ as opposed to the cheese grater post.

If you are sliding at the post from any angle you are going to hit it at 90 degrees due to it's small diameter, if its a wall you are sliding at, the wall the angle can reduce from 90 degrees but never stay at 90 degrees

Hitting anything at 90 degrees is the same as head on with it.

Bike-aholic
27th October 2007, 13:22
This is what happens when you hit a pole.

Edit: Sorry can't see where to delete post so removed link, my bad :spanking:

RiderInBlack
27th October 2007, 17:01
Like WelshWizard, I too feel that we are organising this ride too soon. I will still be coming to it and keenly support it, BUT:
Have we had time enough to get more than KB and SB riders behind this? We barley have the route organised and need the get the word out to non-Internet riders. We need more than Bikers behind us as well. The general population is still fixated on the speed and need to be re-educated. Those dealing with the media have been doing well, but it has not been getting across to those I have talked to (non-riders mainly). Even one of the local bike shops have not come along-side yet, and still put the blame on the speed. We need to get more on-board, especially the bikes and other bike club clubs to really get the message across. This is going to take time to get these people rev'ed up the join this ride.
Anyway this is just the gut feeling I have. I really want this ride to work so that some positive action comes of it (eg: road barriers made safer for all).

xgnr
27th October 2007, 17:21
We can have more of these protests. This will be a long fight I am sure.

Well, I have printed a bunch of the flyers out and stuck on me bike and letter box. Will hand out at the Ulysses run in the morning and try to convince as many people as I can to get the message out.

First convert today, my neighbour, an old fella, came up and asked me what it was about and we had a chat about the barriers etc.

Like a lot of people, he hadn't thought about them but once it we has discussed it he said yes indeed they would be lethal and should be changed. (old biker...)

Gotta give it a go... change will not happen overnight but will take a concerted effort over a long period.

Cheers

Stu

bmz2
27th October 2007, 21:10
Like WelshWizard, I too feel that we are organising this ride too soon. I will still be coming to it and keenly support it, BUT:
Have we had time enough to get more than KB and SB riders behind this? We barley have the route organised and need the get the word out to non-Internet riders. We need more than Bikers behind us as well. The general population is still fixated on the speed and need to be re-educated. Those dealing with the media have been doing well, but it has not been getting across to those I have talked to (non-riders mainly). Even one of the local bike shops have not come along-side yet, and still put the blame on the speed. We need to get more on-board, especially the bikes and other bike club clubs to really get the message across. This is going to take time to get these people rev'ed up the join this ride.
Anyway this is just the gut feeling I have. I really want this ride to work so that some positive action comes of it (eg: road barriers made safer for all).


i agree , you need to be aware that transit nz will come back in the media using the speed and type of bike and age , please do not think i am on their side, the people who are going to deal with the media need to have some facts and figure to back up the reason to remove this type of barrier , and as i saw on tv the other nite , you can not just stand and quote that other countries have removed these barriers , you are dealing with new zealand sheep , and if you are going to use the death of the young man that was killed , be awre that transit will use the police reports right or wrong , and this ride could be all for nothing , i support the ride and the removel of the barriers, , just another note as i said in other thread , we need to watch what we place on the forum about what we do and don't do on bikes, transit nz will use every bit of information that they can get and as we know bikers are not the most liked breed, and a great man once told me never fire all your bullets at once , just what you have to and hold some back , let the other side use all theirs first,then fire the big guns and sink them

delusionz
28th October 2007, 10:34
Excuse the dumb question, But cheese cutters opposed to what? Metal barriers? Concrete barriers? What do you guys propose they replace them with and how would we benefit from replacing the cheese cutters with ____________?

swbarnett
28th October 2007, 16:02
Excuse the dumb question, But cheese cutters opposed to what? Metal barriers? Concrete barriers? What do you guys propose they replace them with and how would we benefit from replacing the cheese cutters with ____________?
Concrete barriers would be ideal. Either that or Armco with an extra rail at the bottom. Basically anything that when we hit them at a glancing angle we just slide along instead of smashing into the posts or running along a saw blade (the wires).

In some places I don't believe a barrier is required at all. Particularly on the left side of the road where there is plenty of run-off room.

discotex
28th October 2007, 21:46
Either that or Armco with an extra rail at the bottom. Basically anything that when we hit them at a glancing angle we just slide along instead of smashing into the posts or running along a saw blade (the wires).

Adding a rubber/plastic strip along the bottom of armcos seems to be quite a good idea to me. Looks cheaper and easier than adding another W rail.

Since all this discussion has started again I'm far more aware of armcos and the wire rope barriers.

The Greenhithe bridge has armco's with the thinish steel uprights. They look like the worst of all and they look like they wouldn't stop a biker from sliding off the bridge.

T.I.E
28th October 2007, 22:05
how is the organising going?

and if someone could make up a flyer for the protest, im sure the ones with printers could print a few off, if we all did some each then spread them around that would cover the printing issues and distribution. country wide in one swoop.
also by giving us more time im sure kiwi rider mag, and motorcycle trader etc would be kind enough to put in a free page of the flyer, (being really cheeky).
police escort would be cool for traffic issues.

Quasievil
29th October 2007, 10:23
Hi all, great to see everyone supports it all. I just wanted to comment in relation to those who think its being organised to quick, I understand what you say and mostly agree however the issue is this.

The media are at this stage still interested in this as a follow up story from the tragic accident recently, it is important that we do it as quick as possible, the main reason is that our sympathetic TV3 reporter will then have a easier job selling the story to her news chief for a spot on the competitive news (we dont want to get bumped) if the story is still in the spotlight and within the general publics recent interest, we stand the best chance of getting it on air, and to the general public in MASS.

The campaign will be long and slow, but this urgent organisation gives us the best chance of a TV spot, Im not sure we would get the same attention any further down the track.

It doesnt stop here this is a Media show, and we need to play the game

See you Saturday TELL EVERYONE YOU CAN

Cheers

WelshWizard
29th October 2007, 12:28
Hi all, great to see everyone supports it all. I just wanted to comment in relation to those who think its being organised to quick, I understand what you say and mostly agree however the issue is this.

The media are at this stage still interested in this as a follow up story from the tragic accident recently, it is important that we do it as quick as possible, the main reason is that our sympathetic TV3 reporter will then have a easier job selling the story to her news chief for a spot on the competitive news (we dont want to get bumped) if the story is still in the spotlight and within the general publics recent interest, we stand the best chance of getting it on air, and to the general public in MASS.

The campaign will be long and slow, but this urgent organisation gives us the best chance of a TV spot, Im not sure we would get the same attention any further down the track.

It doesnt stop here this is a Media show, and we need to play the game

See you Saturday TELL EVERYONE YOU CAN

Cheers


I realise where you are coming from, you have Daniel as a focus point,

But let's not forget, it's about all of us who are at risk, not just Daniels death.

If enough people protest , which I hope they will, it will make me happy to see Daniels death side lined because of the real issue has come to the fore,

the cheese cutters, "there removal or modification to make them safe to all road users"

Ixion
29th October 2007, 19:39
The issue of wire rope barriers was considered at the BRONZ National meeting on Saturday. The resulting resolution was :

BRONZ has concerns about road barriers and in particular 'Brifen' wire rope barriers. BRONZ intends to take the opportunity to meet with Transit to discuss these concerns.

We would like to see:

- A review of the deployment of barriers and wire rope barriers in particular
- No further deployment of wire rope barriers until that review is complete.
- An immediate action plan by Transit to make existing barriers safer for motorcyclists.

Kittyhawk
29th October 2007, 19:59
Let me know if theres anything I can do...not working now and just doin study:no:

If you want petitions signed, I can wonder the streets and get those done round here.

discotex
29th October 2007, 21:27
I've been talking to a lot of non-bikers this last week and it's been very encouraging seeing how many agree that the barriers shoud be modified to make them safer. Most of the people I've spoken to were shocked when I explained how dangerous they are for us.

I think just talking to as many people as you can about it will help get the public on board.

MadDuck
30th October 2007, 07:31
I've been talking to a lot of non-bikers this last week and it's been very encouraging seeing how many agree that the barriers shoud be modified to make them safer. Most of the people I've spoken to were shocked when I explained how dangerous they are for us.

I think just talking to as many people as you can about it will help get the public on board.

Agreed. I put a flier up at work with the pictures on and non bikers have commented on how dangerous they look. One even asked if the protest was just for bikes.....

WelshWizard
30th October 2007, 11:05
Just some links to some Ozz sites re barriers,
http://www.ingalcivil.com.au/products.php?id=10&leaf=y

not how these have more than one run of steel

http://www.ingalcivil.com.au/products.php?id=11&leaf=y
not attempt to make cheese cutters safe, if you look at the wires, sorry what they have done is a waste of money, it will not stop the damage to a rider who hits the wires in my opion
A better engineered solution is require to stop motorcyclist being killed or crippled

xgnr
30th October 2007, 17:52
FYI

I have sent an email to Ulysses(Akl branch) so don't bug them again lol and this was the response which is great. Thanks Howard !!

Hi Stu

I've sent your mail on to my member's email group of about 450 names.
Wording below.

Howard Mansell
Secretary, Auckland Branch,
Ulysses Club of New Zealand
Ulysses #5281


Hi Folks

This came in so I'm passing it on.

This is the protest ride against the Cheese-cutter median barriers and the
death of a younger biker recently at Papakura caused by the budget "safety"
system.

I am passing it on solely as information, this does not mean that the
Auckland Branch Committee support or wish to promote the ride.

This email has been posted to all Auckland Branch Members with Email

Howard Mansell
Secretary, Auckland Branch,
Ulysses Club of New Zealand
Ulysses #5281

-----Original Message-----
From: Stu [mailto:xgnr@xtra.co.nz]
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 7:30 PM
To: secretary@ulyssesauckland.org.nz
Subject: Ulysses New Zealand Auckland Branc: Protest Ride- Cheese Cutters
Saturday

This is an enquiry e-mail via http://www.ulyssesauckland.org.nz from:
Stu <xgnr@xtra.co.nz>

Hi there

Wondered if you would put up as an event the Protest ride planned in
Auckland THIS SATURDAY 3rd November from Ramarama (off ramp turn to the
left) to Auckland Domain assemble 12.00 midday depart 1.00pm.

Please wear a red armband

More details available at the kiwibiker website

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz

thanks and regards

Stu

Ixion
2nd November 2007, 20:08
The word from the Undercover Mole Squadron, currently acting behind enemy lines, is that there will be some very positive news to announce tomorrow.

Be there to hear it.

Stuart SS
4th November 2007, 22:42
I believe that Western Australia banned these demonic devices years ago ~
But not Queensland ~ where I live now !

I feel it is about building so called safety devices as economical as possible at any cost ~ even if that is lives..

My best support from over the deep blue !!

DEATH_INC.
4th November 2007, 22:43
I believe that Western Australia banned these demonic devices years ago ~
But not Queensland ~ where I live now !

I feel it is about building so called safety devices as economical as possible at any cost ~ even if that is lives..

My best support from over the deep blue !!
Cheers, thanks for the support :niceone:

WelshWizard
5th November 2007, 04:59
Cheers
StuartSS'
Get all the other Classic guys and Gals to register and add their comments these wire barriers are affecting all riders world wide, when the powers that be just want to save money.

Now let spread the word to every forum we know, may even be able get a protest run orginised to run on the same day world wide.

Cheers
WW

WelshWizard
6th November 2007, 16:40
This link may be of help

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/concern-over-wire-rope-crash-barriers-sparks-eu-review-1138376.html

in the artical its states these barriers are ban in Britain, so why are they still installing them there, NZ could easaly do the same, say one thing and do another. :(

Sanx
8th November 2007, 13:35
This link may be of help

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/concern-over-wire-rope-crash-barriers-sparks-eu-review-1138376.html

in the artical its states these barriers are ban in Britain, so why are they still installing them there, NZ could easaly do the same, say one thing and do another. :(

Unfortunately, the barriers are not banned in the UK. The Fine Gael MP quoted got it wrong. However, they are banned in Holland, Belgium and Finland.

Ixion
8th November 2007, 14:19
But they ARE safety fitting them



In 2004 the Highways Agency in the United Kingdom implemented a proposed scheme for provision of a motorcycle friendly barrier system to supplement an existing safety barrier, after several accidents which included fatalities, at the A2070 Cloverleaf Junction in Ashford, Kent.

Number One
11th November 2007, 07:53
Sully60 and I have only one bike and no babysitter today....all good for a fair weather cage driver to show up and show support for the cause too?! Any one got any idea when you're all planning to make it to the beehive?

Colapop
11th November 2007, 07:57
Yes you are more than welcome! You can even have a banner or two on your car if you wanted to follow the ride into town. The rides leave (both locations) just after 11. Due to arrive at parliament at approximately 11:30ish...

Number One
11th November 2007, 08:05
Thanks Colapop....might tag along behind the bikes. Won't feel like such a half arser if we participate in the procession...have some butcher paper too so might see if I can decorate the cage a bit to attract some attention along the way....

Nasty
11th November 2007, 08:08
Thanks Colapop....might tag along behind the bikes. Won't feel like such a half arser if we participate in the procession...have some butcher paper too so might see if I can decorate the cage a bit to attract some attention along the way....

we will send a sign over to TSS if you want to put on your car. See Grub.

Nasty
11th November 2007, 08:11
Thanks Colapop....might tag along behind the bikes. Won't feel like such a half arser if we participate in the procession...have some butcher paper too so might see if I can decorate the cage a bit to attract some attention along the way....

or in plimmerton see Sunhuntin!

Number One
11th November 2007, 12:25
Interesting experience to holding up traffic on the motorway - not one I'm used to and crikey people come up close behind before they get out of your lane! Hazard lights a requirement!

Anyone been passed by that many cars before?

Sorry for the initial close calls Nasty, 3 year old with large basketball in front seat and that was my first political rally and all.

Bringing up the rear of slow moving processions is something I've not practised.

Great turn out and looked to be good safe riding by all - Very good No Unassseptable behaviour (as Supernanny would say!!!). :clap:

Looked an impressive display on the motorway (even from the rear :msn-wink: ) I'm sure it got peoples attention...and some very lovely machines to perve at too that, Lets face it people may never previously have had a chance to perve at and there you all were moving so slowly...:yes:

Will spread the word amongst my biker colleagues...Go the Public Service! There seem to be quite a large number of them and yet I didn't recognise any of them there today. How do we arrange/co-ordinate petition forms again?

Anyway - thanks for the arranging the ride/drive and for letting a sympathetic 'currently cage driver' tag along.

Keep the message alive - NO New Zealander on the road is safe with these barriers installed in their current state - especially not bikers. :weep:

Expert
11th November 2007, 13:22
This is worthwhile campaign, not a pleasant way to go getting seperated from your legs i would imagine. Another unpleasant way to go would be getting run over by the back wheels of a truck when you have just slid into that gap behind the front wheels but in front of the back wheels.
In most of europe and other places they have nerf bars or some other bars to stop that happening. Apparently a high percentage of motorcycle versus truck collisions end with the rider going in that gap, happens to cars too but the driver is in a metal safety box so doesn't suffer so badly.
When you get those wire ropes removed this might be a worthwhile campaign to get going, get those bars fitted on trucks.

Mom
13th November 2007, 17:51
I was talking to someone at work today, who resides in Wellywood and is not a biker. For some reason the conversation turned to the weather (go figure). I made mention of the weather on Sunday that I saw in the pics posted on from the protest ride.......This bloke knew all about the protest! So well done Wellington. He made a really interesting observation too that I want to share.

With apologies to Dans family and friends, the suggestion was to write to the coroner. His recommendation was Gary Evans, from all accounts not afraid to say what is what and how it is!

I think it is a great idea! Will hunt down some info on contact details, and pot them up.

Hitcher
13th November 2007, 19:11
An essential part of the Stage 2 strategy is to seek out friends and allies, particularly in the non-biker world. Cheesecutter is pretty ineffective/dangerous for larger vehicles. We need to find ways of demonstrating that the stuff is cheap and nasty and not just a problem for bikers. Gary Evans is a great idea. I also have a feeling that Ministers Annette King and Harry Duynhoven are capable of being "turned".

WelshWizard
13th November 2007, 21:35
I put the petition up at work not much responce, then added the picture of the Falcon that had been cut up by the wires, ( posted picture at Cheesecutters website, with in half an hour the first two pages were full.

As soon as they think it will effect them in a car they soon sign up.

MSTRS
14th November 2007, 08:35
I put the petition up at work not much responce, then added the picture of the Falcon that had been cut up by the wires, ( posted picture at Cheesecutters website, with in half an hour the first two pages were full.

As soon as they think it will effect them in a car they soon sign up.

Yes, same here. Make the issue real for cagers and they 'get it'

Fub@r
14th November 2007, 11:44
An essential part of the Stage 2 strategy is to seek out friends and allies, particularly in the non-biker world. Cheesecutter is pretty ineffective/dangerous for larger vehicles. We need to find ways of demonstrating that the stuff is cheap and nasty and not just a problem for bikers. Gary Evans is a great idea. I also have a feeling that Ministers Annette King and Harry Duynhoven are capable of being "turned".

Need someone to approach these guys in Wellington as a potential ally, are you able to Hitcher?
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=60839

If noone does I will make contact with them by email

Hitcher
14th November 2007, 17:55
If noone does I will make contact with them by email

By all means email and otherwise jostle elected leaders. It's important that they think there is some kind of groundswell happening. But a cunning plan will take this campaign further than unbridled enthusiasm.

WelshWizard
14th November 2007, 20:37
Does any one think its worth while contacting other groups in other countries effected by these cheese cutter barriers with a view to getting a world wide protest ride on the same day, that way the media would have to take notice.

MSTRS
3rd December 2007, 10:38
After Taupo's ride tomorrow, what is the next step? Yes, we have the petition with the associated attempt to get the public on our side, but I get the distinct impression that apathy will kill this campaign.
I am seeing our local MP face to face this Friday, but lone calls in the wilderness aren't going to make a lot of impact.
Is there a mood that might take this to the next level? Like deliberate congesting of major roads at inconvenient times? The French farmers and transport industry sure get their concerns 'aired' publicly.
It is my feeling that with the rate these fkn things are being installed, we have made no headway at all.

Nasty
3rd December 2007, 10:42
There is a meeting that has been set up with Transit New Zealand that is happening shortly.

MSTRS
3rd December 2007, 11:04
There is a meeting that has been set up with Transit New Zealand that is happening shortly.

Then why haven't we been informed of this before? Info like this is critical if collectively or individually we are to be of help. I have sent the latest press release to the NZ Transport Industry email address, asking that they consider supporting our campaign. I feel really strongly about these deathtraps, and thought that I was involved at the Action Committee level, but see no point in doing anything if I for one am kept out of the loop.

Nasty
3rd December 2007, 11:40
Then why haven't we been informed of this before? Info like this is critical if collectively or individually we are to be of help. I have sent the latest press release to the NZ Transport Industry email address, asking that they consider supporting our campaign. I feel really strongly about these deathtraps, and thought that I was involved at the Action Committee level, but see no point in doing anything if I for one am kept out of the loop.

I have only just heard about this myself. I will speak to those involved and request an update for the site.
Cheers

MSTRS
3rd December 2007, 11:48
Thanks Kari - and at the same time, I ask that any one with an idea or update on their activities should post it here. I mean - this is not a secret campaign is it?

Nasty
3rd December 2007, 12:10
Thanks Kari - and at the same time, I ask that any one with an idea or update on their activities should post it here. I mean - this is not a secret campaign is it?

It most definately should not be a secret campaign ... All should be posted as soon as ideas come to a head.

RiderInBlack
4th December 2007, 05:57
Am wondering why I've not seen any articles on this in the NZ Bike mags yet. I would have thought 2 have at less read something in the BRONZ section of the Kiwi Rider by now.
Has anyone approached the Mags?

Quasievil
4th December 2007, 06:52
Am wondering why I've not seen any articles on this in the NZ Bike mags yet. I would have thought 2 have at less read something in the BRONZ section of the Kiwi Rider by now.
Has anyone approached the Mags?

Read the editorial of BRM mag, I got that in, also another article with pics in the next issue

RiderInBlack
4th December 2007, 07:02
Read the editorial of BRM mag, I got that in, also another article with pics in the next issueSweet (too bad I don't read that one:whistle:). Good on ya:2thumbsup

Big Dave
4th December 2007, 08:56
Jaqui Madeline puts the BRONZ page together on instruction from BRONZ.

Individual contributions are welcome as always.
editor@kiwirider.co.nz.

Ixion
4th December 2007, 09:08
Thing with mags is the leadtime between when an article has to be written by and when it appears. It can be up to 3 months. So it's hard to be topical, unless the writer has a crystal ball. Look for cheescutter commentary in the KR BRONZ column in upcoming months.

Gixxer 4 ever
5th December 2007, 16:19
So a few of us were siting around having a beer and debrief from yesterdays ride to Taupo. So far we have been non confrontational. We have obeyed the letter of the law and been respectful to the LTSA reps that spoke to us yesterday. We have had some media coverage but not a lot. May thanks to the people that have covered our protest rides.

Well the beer and port are well gone from my blood now and I have had plenty of time at work today to think about things. Maybe it is time to stop being so nice. Look at it this way. We are nice and sit around drinking tea while miles of these barriers go up. So it is going to kill. We sit around and people are being lined up to die. So it's time to get a bit more aggressive.

Maybe we need to ride to Parliament and bang on some desks. Bash some heads on the walls and generally make our point that we are not going to let the killing fields continue to be developed. We stand back and they just send out muppets that think they are smart and will talk us away. Time to take some civil disobedient action. Maybe even personal attacks on the people that insist on putting these things up? Maybe some property damage and some assaults are what is needed. Aye if you can have gorilla training camps in NZ and get away with it maybe we need to take action. Time to stir the pot and get some heat in the fire. I am sure if a few politicians went down in a screaming heap the media would start to look. Why should they be able to kill us on the roads and expect us to stand by and do nothing? Maybe some politicians should be delivered to the wire rope barriers at 100 kmh from the back of a ute so they can see what we have to face. How far do we need to go?

Come on what are we doing next? This is not a war with the police or the public but with the greater minds that put money before lives. ACC would rather you die cos it is cheaper for them to have you buried than rebuild you. Wire rope do that well. The Prime minister and the ministers of the state that have the power are the only ones that can change this over night. So maybe they are the ones that need singling out for attention.

Well that's how I feel. Enough of the nandy pandy shit arss kissing awareness rides. time to kick single serious butt.

Well maybe not that much but we need to start looking at WHAT NEXT?

yungatart
5th December 2007, 16:40
100% agreed...TBH I was getting pretty shitty with the guy yesterday but didn't want to upset those who had organised the meeting.
However...if things are to take a slightly different tact,I'm there 100%

I highly doubt that we will continue to use tact and diplomacy as our weapons of choice....

Hitcher
5th December 2007, 18:55
I highly doubt that we will continue to use tact and diplomacy as our weapons of choice....

There are ways and means. Tact and diplomacy will have their place as long as the key opinion formers are traffic planners and policy officials. Don't forget that the "target audience" is less than 20 people.

MSTRS
5th December 2007, 19:32
There are ways and means. Tact and diplomacy will have their place as long as the key opinion formers are traffic planners and policy officials. Don't forget that the "target audience" is less than 20 people.

True. But can they ignore 4,000,000 voices? Coupled with a determination to succeed? Whatever form that may take?

Grub
5th December 2007, 19:44
I'm going to step in here and perhaps be a little unpopular with the "The LTSA guy was a prat" faction.

Two things stood out for me and meant that I believe the populist view above may be misguided.
1) Two guys, walked out across the front lawn of the motel, across the road and met us on our turf. They didn't have to do that, that was gutsy. People who have something to hide or are covering stuff up don't front up like that. I have never ever seen anyone front a protest group like that - ever.

2) The guy (I wish someone would please furnish his name and position) listened to us with respect and talked to us with respect. More importantly he talked WITH us, not AT us. I also think he listened to what we had to say and the way we had to say it. I also noted that he didn't try and tell us that these barriers were alright. He said they do save live - and they do.

Consider this. What if these guys really hadn't thought this through when they started putting these things in ... and what if they're now coming to realise what they really mean? The response we saw from him/them is exactly what I would expect if that's the case.

I believe that our campaign is sending them back to the researchers and sending them seeking answers to the questions we have posed. For them to change their barrier policy to a potentially more expensive one, they have to justify it. To justify it they need the background, they tell us they are now doing that research. What I was hearing was that they may be realising they've screwed up and are now doing what they should have done in the first place - do the in-depth research.

I've spent enough time in the media and the beauracracies of Wellington to believe wholeheartedly that a monumental fuckup like this is not only possible but inevitable. I also believe the campaign is working and more of the same will get results.

What I am sure will destroy our cause is if we get bolshie and reactionary. Nothing builds barriers in the halls of power than peoplebeing backing into walls.

There are other people we need to speak to in the same way we have to Transit. ACC is one and that's why I targetted them and not Transit in my DominionPost article that kicked this all off. It's also why I bought up the long-term cost benefits study in the UK of wire vs concrete. That's giving them ways out and strategies with which they can argue against wire to their masters and in alanguage that they understand.

Think strategicly, be focussed and speak with authority, committment and conviction - it does work. Oh ... and get petition signatures!

Peace
Brett

Holy Roller
5th December 2007, 19:52
Well said Grub
I have been listening to the video of the meeting with the Chief Traffic and Safety Manager. I found the exchange encouraging with a positive response being given. What I got from the dialogue was that Transit are having to Rethink their position on WRB. Now to continue to lobby gubmint to have it enforced into action.

From what I have read on other countries journey to having these banned is that some years were needed to see this happen, it did not happen overnight.

yungatart
5th December 2007, 20:06
I hear what you are saying, Grub and HR!

I felt (and I am only speaking for me) that Stuart (Road safety and Policy Manager (I think- its on the video) was "flannelling" me/us.

He got decidedly uncomfortable and would not look me in the eye several times when I was speaking. I also felt that he would not look me in the eye several times when he was speaking.

I am glad that they sent 2 guys out to meet us, but I am sure they were handpicked for their ability to 'tow the party line' and give us enough information to send us away happy, thinking our job is done, so they can get back to the business of installing these things at a huge rate of knots right throughout the country.

By nature, I am a trusting person, I take people as I find them and believe (in) them until proven otherwise, I take them at face value, often to my detriment. I have not got more cynical as I have aged....but I don't believe what I was told yesterday, and I wouldn't trust those two as far as I could kick them.

Holy Roller
5th December 2007, 20:11
That is why government intervention is needed to set the boundries for these guys to adhere to

Hitcher
5th December 2007, 20:13
True. But can they ignore 4,000,000 voices? Coupled with a determination to succeed? Whatever form that may take?

The ends justifies the means? I hope not.

While I understand people's frustration at this war being fought out amongst the largely invisible Wellington bureaucracy, that is where it will be won. Protest rides and other conspicuous activities largely only serve to keep our supporters geed up and committed to supporting the campaign. Preaching to the converted, if you will. Our adversaries in officialdom will pay little heed to this, as too will politicians -- unless they think that there are votes in this, which there aren't at the moment.

Some folks may be interested in "winning" battles. I am interested in winning this "war".

MSTRS
5th December 2007, 20:16
To justify it they need the background, they tell us they are now doing that research. What I was hearing was that they may be realising they've screwed up and are now doing what they should have done in the first place - do the in-depth research.


I'm sorry to rain on this otherwise sensible parade, but the research is out there all over the world. NZ is not unique and the rest of the world understands what works or has done away with because it doesn't. Transit DO NOT need to go over old ground.

Hitcher
5th December 2007, 20:23
Transit DO NOT need to go over old ground.

There are some issues of "face saving" here. They won't want to admit or be forced to admit that they were wrong or doing things counter to manufacturers' recommendations. There are issues of liability and criminal negligence that they and their political masters will be keen to avoid or mitigate.

Telling them that they're wrong is one thing. Providing mutually-beneficial solutions quite another. Doing the latter will build strong and enduring relationships with these dudes that we can turn to our advantage for other safety matters of importance to motorcyclists.

Grub
5th December 2007, 20:41
I'm sorry to rain on this otherwise sensible parade, but the research is out there all over the world. NZ is not unique and the rest of the world understands what works or has done away with because it doesn't. Transit DO NOT need to go over old ground.

No of course they don't, but I truely believe that when they went down this route they didn't do any research. They didn't know they had to.

They were probably approached by a contractor or an vendor with this amazing new system. The vendor could show how it was being installed all over the world and tell them how much cheaper they are than any other system. Ask anyone who has worked in one of Wellington's beauracacies and they will nod as I do and see how the discussion would have gone and how easily it would have been adopted without due consideration.

I guess I'm saying that it's just possible they are only now hearing about all the negatives and only now hearing (because they are looking) at all this other research. For the first tiem, standing there in the sun of Taupo, I heard them acknowledge the bans and partial bans in many countries.

MSTRS
5th December 2007, 20:48
P'raps youse fulllas is rite. Wot wood I no?

Gixxer 4 ever
5th December 2007, 21:11
There are some issues of "face saving" here. They won't want to admit or be forced to admit that they were wrong or doing things counter to manufacturers' recommendations. There are issues of liability and criminal negligence that they and their political masters will be keen to avoid or mitigate.

Telling them that they're wrong is one thing. Providing mutually-beneficial solutions quite another. Doing the latter will build strong and enduring relationships with these dudes that we can turn to our advantage for other safety matters of importance to motorcyclists.

How many need to die while we build the relationships?

I am old enough to know what you are saying Hitcher but Dead is Dead.

If you think we took the day off work to humour ourselves and preach to our converted you are wrong. We need to get people to think about this issue. Most people just don't get it. So what is next if you don't want us out in public? Will the petition do it? Remember this government just made retrospective law to make their sins legal. They will pass a law to gag people from speaking out tonight.

However I respect your opinions Hitcher so best you take the lead and keep up the dialog with them. I will take the guns home and watch the news to see how many will die while we give room for them to save face and revisit the issue and blame someone else.

Sometimes you gota smack the kids to save them from themselves in the future. Yep I am a bad parent as well. Lucky my kids were big enough to survive it and become good citizens.


Emotive? Yep. Get talking to them. What do we do in the mean time? Maybe list how many KM go in each week?

Thanks to all the people that have tried to make a difference. Everyone of you are trying to save lives. We all do it in different ways but we seem to be so devided that we may acheive litle. Devided we fall. Look at KB. How many different threads? I can't spend enough time to read them all.

Best I just go to work and forget them. After all we don't have them in the Hawkes Bay .. yet.......

Gixxer 4 ever
5th December 2007, 21:21
I don't get this. Wellington is littered with these things. So is Auckland. And a few other places and we only get 45 bikes to the rally to address the very people that make the decisions. Maybe 45 of us are misguided and wrong. Beats me. Maybe we should all slow down and ride at a safe 25 KMh so if we strike oil or ice or melted tar we can save ourselves. FFS

MSTRS
5th December 2007, 21:24
Best I just go to work and forget them. After all we don't have them in the Hawkes Bay .. yet.......

And nor will there be!

Stickchick
5th December 2007, 21:28
And nor will there be!

I was actually talking to a few Fulton Hogan guys from here and they are in the same mind as everyone else....They do not want these barriers in the HB. Maybe another avenue of people to approach or even have on side?

Grub
5th December 2007, 21:30
P'raps youse fulllas is rite. Wot wood I no?

I tell ya wot I no.

You 'n' Yungatart wrote one of the best statements I've ever heard. It was balanced, strong, non-combative but man it had teeth!! I loved hearing it again.

I don't blame the Transit Road Safety and Policy Manager for having trouble looking you in the eye. When did a naughty schoolboy or girl last look at the teacher that was telling them off? LOL

Great stuff you two

MSTRS
5th December 2007, 21:30
I was actually talking to a few Fulton Hogan guys from here and they are in the same mind as everyone else....They do not want these barriers in the HB. Maybe another avenue of people to approach or even have on side?

In deed! Can you find out if they are involved in the installation of these elsewhere?

MSTRS
5th December 2007, 21:32
I tell ya wot I no.

You 'n' Yungatart wrote one of the best statements I've ever heard. It was balanced, strong, non-combative but man it had teeth!! I loved hearing it again.

I don't blame the Transit Road Safety and Policy Manager for having trouble looking you in the eye. When did a naughty schoolboy or girl last look at the teacher that was telling them off? LOL

Great stuff you two

Awww....shucks.....we does our bests...Thanks for saying so!

Stickchick
5th December 2007, 21:42
In deed! Can you find out if they are involved in the installation of these elsewhere?

Sure, I should be able to make a few calls....Will let you know tomorrow night at some stage.

Will also talk to them about signing the petition too

RiderInBlack
6th December 2007, 07:55
We do need ta keep the general awareness of these barriers high and make sure more than just bikers understand our issue with them, BUT it would do us no good at all to loose the plot and and get too radical. That would only put the general population against us (even other bikers).

We need to step-up our adverting/public awareness more yet. Good articles and advising in National Media (papers, mags, radio). Has anything been on (God forbid) "Talk Back Radio" concerning this campaign? Looking forward ta seeing something in the Bike Mags with a link for the petition in it. How are we going on those fronts?

Don't think Hawkes Bay is safe from having those barriers when I see them on this sides of the road around Walkworth and Wellsford.

MSTRS
7th December 2007, 17:40
Had a nice chat with our local MP, Chris Tremain today. He knew nothing about the whole issue, but now understands where we are coming from and seems supportive. He said that we are doing the right things so far, and we need to keep it up as far as getting out there in public etc. He also says that face-to-face with people in the right positions will go even further in getting a result, but don't expect an overnight solution (we knew that).

He got on his blackberry while I was there and instructed (his parliamentary secretary?) to have some questions put to the Min.of Transport in the House...
1. How many kms of this stuff currently exist on Transit's network?
2. What is Transit's policy for determining installation?
3. Does Transit have the intention of reviewing it's use?
Answers to be expected when Parliament resumes after Xmas.

Chris said that it would be most useful for (one of?) us to have a meeting with David Bennett, National's associate spokesman for Transport. Could you Welly people get together with Hitcher and organise this?

On Tuesday I am meeting with a journo here who fronts our equivalent of the Hutt News.

Gixxer 4 ever
7th December 2007, 17:52
Well done John.
Green bling but You know the story.......... Spread it around........

MSTRS
7th December 2007, 18:11
Oh, I'm not doing this for the bling (although it's usually:shit: nice to get some). Somehow this issue has taken a hold on me and I can't just do nothing.

Pixie
19th December 2007, 12:53
I was actually talking to a few Fulton Hogan guys from here and they are in the same mind as everyone else....They do not want these barriers in the HB. Maybe another avenue of people to approach or even have on side?

I'm not disparaging Fulton hogan.They maybe good allies to us as they have
Concrete casting divisions within the FH group.

MSTRS
19th December 2007, 12:59
I was actually talking to a few Fulton Hogan guys from here and they are in the same mind as everyone else....They do not want these barriers in the HB. Maybe another avenue of people to approach or even have on side?


In deed! Can you find out if they are involved in the installation of these elsewhere?


Sure, I should be able to make a few calls....Will let you know tomorrow night at some stage.

Will also talk to them about signing the petition too

Forgot about this exchange....did anything eventuate?

sunhuntin
19th December 2007, 13:03
that will be interesting to find out exactly how many k of wire exists across new zealand? give that the average length appears to be about 300mt

ive got skunks sticker stuck the 500 windsheild, and still have the red tape on my jacket.

fulton hogan would be a good one to target... they are the ones paid to put barriers up are they?

dont think the hawkes bay is safe... if they can find reason to put 4 seperate stretches between invers and bluff [22k] they will find reason to wire the bay as well.

MSTRS
19th December 2007, 13:07
dont think the hawkes bay is safe... if they can find reason to put 4 seperate stretches between invers and bluff [22k] they will find reason to wire the bay as well.

I know we're not safe (yet). I think different areas are 'managed' locally and it depends on whether the individual managers are puppets or can think for themselves...

Gixxer 4 ever
19th December 2007, 15:16
I still think the answers are in the PDF file. There are ways to make them safe. Move them 3 meters and cover them with the plastic skins. Page 19 of this PDF file. Look at all the other things that are being done around the world.

I suppose we have done or time on this matter. Guess it is time for BRONZ to take the lead and do the talking or are we going to mobilise again and do something else? If we do we need more than 100 bikes. We need a thousand or more bikes. I guess the bike riders of NZ are just too busy to be bothered to protest. I went to Hamilton from Napier on Sunday and didn't see one rope killer on the road. But in Wellington and Auckland I see shit loads. So the big population in those cities must be happy with the things or they would be up in arms.

So it is in NZ. A law to stop us speaking out about the Government and we do nothing. They will take us away one at a time and shoot us and we will say nothing. They will close down all churches and religious groups and we will say nothing. They will kill all old people and we will realise how stupid we have been but will say nothing. When it is your turn you will realise how stupid we are. You will shout from the roof tops as you are lead away but no one will listen to you. Alone you die, united you have a chance. Don't be sheep. Shout while you have a voice.

RiderInBlack
19th December 2007, 16:18
I suppose we have done or time on this matter. Guess it is time for BRONZ to take the lead and do the talking or are we going to mobilise again and do something else? If we do we need more than 100 bikes. We need a thousand or more bikes. I guess the bike riders of NZ are just too busy to be bothered to protest.The main problem I see with the protest rides as far as numbers were concerned is the movement is still too new. A lot of riders (especially non-Internet ones) are only just catching up with this. The weekend AK one went well seeing it was only put together in two weeks. Week day ones are hard because it's hard ta get the riders there that can take the time off. Taupo for that reason was out of the question. I could have lost up to 3 days of work (I'm broke and can't afford ta loose that much money).

IMHO we still have a MAJOR PR job ahead of us before we get the number of riders behind us. Every Bike publication in NZ needs ta be encourage ta run articles on it (was for the ACC ride). All major MC Clubs need ta be approached and a ride date and place made that works well for as many riders as we can. THIS WILL NEED TO BE A LONG TERM CAMPAIGN. Make it "popular" ta be seen on these rides. Yes there is some major organising ta do here. I just grateful of the work that has been put in so far, but they need more help yet.

sunhuntin
19th December 2007, 19:19
if a protest ride is arranged, providing i have at least 3 days notice, i will attend, no matter where it is.

a lot of riders and bike associated people i have spoken to have no idea that we are fighting the barriers, and not many even realise the actual danger they pose.

we need to start getting adverts out there... newspapers, magazines, radio. etc. something to get the message out. feature the car turned into a convertable, and maybe a bike that has been shredded [not featuring any actual bodies, just the vehicle involved]

Gixxer 4 ever
20th December 2007, 05:31
Ok lets all have a safe and happy Christmas. I hope we can find an opportunity to put our case in front of the public in the new year. It is true that a lot of people I talk to have no idea what we are on about. It doesn't take long to explain it. A big protest ride that made the media and TVNZ News would make people aware of what was going on. And to all the people that have organised the three runs to date, well done but I recon a big turn out of bikes in Wellington going at 50 kmh in all lanes in peak traffic would make people think. I was a big advocate of "none confrontational" in Taupo. In fact I promised it would be so when I delivered the invitation to the delegates, but when you see how little notice is taken you gota think of other ways. The tractors in Parliament grounds made a difference and the Fart tax was disposed of quick smart. I rest my case.


But what and where? But we need a lot more bikes. How has BRONZ got on with the submission via the political system? Guess that's dead in the water for the next 3 months with holidays and shit laws to gag us are debated in the new year. What else has happened?

Disco Dan
30th December 2007, 07:38
Not just us that is worried:

http://www.irishbikerforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=65827&pid=152969&st=0&#entry152969

VTRRR
1st January 2008, 18:46
i havnt heard of this before, but i think they look evil. i would show up to protest in chch.

sunhuntin
1st January 2008, 19:22
i got my head shaved yesterday, and the young man that did it asked about the red tape on my jacket [left it on from taupo] once i did a quick explanation, his face lit up. both him and a friend had a close encounter with one... he very nearly connected with it, and knows he is lucky to be alive. i meant to tell him the website, but forgot.

so any new plymouth-ers that go to just cuts in the mall [by farmers] tell the good looking young man with the brown hair the website. tell him the #2 girl sent ya.

WelshWizard
2nd January 2008, 13:07
http://safence.com/Standarde.htm

When you read the artical at the above site you will see what you have to overcome, the standards are flawed as they do not take motorcycles into consideration.

RiderInBlack
3rd January 2008, 14:35
Noticed WRB/Cheesecutters on the side of the road in the Oakliegh area just South of Whangarei. There ta stop us from going in ta the Mangrove Swamps:bleh: Why had I not noticed them sooner:doh:

Meekey_Mouse
3rd January 2008, 20:22
Noticed WRB/Cheesecutters on the side of the road in the Oakliegh area just South of Whangarei. There ta stop us from going in ta the Mangrove Swamps:bleh: Why had I not noticed them sooner:doh:

But what if we wanted to go for a swim in the swamp?! I'd much prefer the swamp lol

Sooo... It's '08... What are we doin this year as far as the WRB campaign goes?

robertydog
4th January 2008, 09:09
But what if we wanted to go for a swim in the swamp?! I'd much prefer the swamp lol

Sooo... It's '08... What are we doin this year as far as the WRB campaign goes?

Ive noticed how this is going very quiet.

yungatart
6th January 2008, 09:34
But what if we wanted to go for a swim in the swamp?! I'd much prefer the swamp lol

Sooo... It's '08... What are we doin this year as far as the WRB campaign goes?

Nothing planned that I am aware of, but keep getting those petition forms filled out. They will make a difference!

TOTO
6th January 2008, 10:43
Nothing planned that I am aware of, but keep getting those petition forms filled out. They will make a difference!

Forgive my request, but do you have a link for those petition things/forms etc coz I gotta work and cant read the forum whole day to find it. I'll be glad to join the whole compaign and all. Strong support and credit:mega:

TOTO
6th January 2008, 11:04
dont worry I found it and have signed up. Thanks.

MSTRS
9th January 2008, 11:27
On 7.12.07 I met with Chris Tremain, Napier National MP. He asked 3 questions in parliament about CC etc...
.
1/. What is TNZ policy regarding the establishment of new Brifen safety barriers on NZ's road network?
.
2/. Does TNZ have any plans to replace any existing Brifen safety barriers on NZs road network?
.
3/. How many kms, if any, of Brifen safety barriers are currently in place on NZs road network?
.


The answers came back from Harry Duynhoven...
1.TNZs policy for the installation of a wire rope barrier system is the same as for all road safety barrier systems. That policy is that a barrier treatment is a recourse only when the risk of leaving the road cannot be managed the the removal, relocation or re-engineering of the hazard. A compliance tested barrier system is then selected that is appropriate to the nature of the hazard being avoided, the type of road traffic, and the road.
.
2. TNZ advises me it has reviewed the use of wire rope safety barrier on state highways, and has no plans to replace any existing installations at this time. TNZs review of the performance of these barriers has determined that they have prevented a number of potentially serious crashes over the years.
.
3. Brifen is a proprietary name for a wire rope barrier system used on state highways. There are a number of other systems in use including Safefence, and public domain systems. TNZ advise me that there is at present 127kms of Brifen brand wire rope barriers installed on NZs state highway network.

So, what did we learn?
The question(s) asked will be answered, but the answer given will be to the letter of the question. Brifen is only one type used and the answer is about this type only. I will guarantee that Harry Dickhead knows exactly what was required in answer but chooses to play the literal card.
Transit are not yet treating us seriously.
Transit will also play games over semantics.
Transit will make their policy fit their action?

Hitcher
9th January 2008, 11:32
Parliamentarians never ask the "hard" questions first up. Having received these answers to these questions (if Chris Tremain wishes to pursue this matter) there are now more pointed questions that can be asked, particularly around the veracity of the safety claims made by TNZ regarding WRB.

MSTRS
9th January 2008, 11:39
So would you like to formulate some really searching questions that I can take back to Chris? Or would you like to ask those questions of your local MP?

DEATH_INC.
9th January 2008, 11:40
TNZ advise me that there is at present 127kms of Brifen brand wire rope barriers installed on NZs state highway network.
RRRIIIIIGGGGGHHHHTTTT!!!!
There's more than that between here and Hamilhole....

MSTRS
9th January 2008, 11:44
RRRIIIIIGGGGGHHHHTTTT!!!!
There's more than that between here and Hamilhole....

Yes we know. He answered as to the Brifen brand only

Ixion
9th January 2008, 11:48
The actual answers are not important. No policritter will ever answer a question truthfully or directly.

What is important is that it puts Mr D on notice that the issue is still there. It hasn't quietly faded away, and it's still gaining traction. So it's stilla problem to him.

Accordingly , he will make sure that Transit do not do anything to attract more attention to the issue.

Dripping water wears down hard stone. Constant nagging can wear down even the Grey Sheeple.

Hitcher
9th January 2008, 11:58
So would you like to formulate some really searching questions that I can take back to Chris? Or would you like to ask those questions of your local MP?

Here's four for starters to help dig a slightly deeper hole for the Minister:

1. What is the basis of "compliance testing" on road barriers of all types erected in New Zealand? Does this include testing barriers once erected to ensure compliance with manufacturers' standards and, if so, what does this involve?

2. Is the Minister aware of moves by European countries to ban and remove WRB systems -- for safety reasons? How does he reconcile this with the "compliance testing" allegedly conducted by TNZ? (Seek leave to table before the House the relevant supporting documents)

3. What length of WRB is currently erected on New Zealand roads administered by TNZ? What plans are in place to erect more WRB and what lengths/distances are involved?

4. In answer to PQ# the Minister claimed that TNZ's review of the performance of WRB systems stated that these barriers had prevented a number of potentially serious crashes over years. Could the Minister please reveal how many crashes, the vehicle types involved, the location and type of WRB system erected, and TNZ's basis for determining "seriousness"?

I hope the Honorable Minister is as cute in answering these as he was with his first lot. "Cute" is a game two can play...

James Deuce
9th January 2008, 12:01
Oi've been thinking.

Motorcyclists seem to focus on visibility as an issue, when in fact visibility, not visibilty is the issue.

Have I gone mad? Not quite.

The orange safety vest isn't the answer.

Getting people to acknowledge that us motorcyclists are the same as those there non-motorcyclists is. Greater visibility as human beings and contributing members of society, not crazed, speed (both kinds) addicted criminals.

So the idea is, Sunday paper magazine section profiles on Motorcyclists who are as far from the common perceptions of motorcylists as is possible.

Problem is we'll need "interesting" people who are happy to reveal stuff about themselves, stuff that over shadows the motorcyclist tag to a large degree.

Interesting would mean that people with tattoos, baldness, facial hair, racers, and specifically those who work in IT would be excluded from being profiled. Those things are all motorcyling norms and also by definition uninteresting.

Questions on personal safety can be woven into these articles, and they can revolve around things like road side barriers, nudge, nudge.

Two things.

1. Who is volunteering to be profiled, or can be volunteered?
2. Who will help me write and present them in a format suitable for publication in a general media interest section?

Ixion
9th January 2008, 12:04
l
4. In answer to PQ# the Minister claimed that TNZ's review of the performance of WRB systems stated that these barriers had prevented a number of potentially serious crashes over years. Could the Minister please reveal how many crashes, the vehicle types involved, the location and type of WRB system erected, and TNZ's basis for determining "seriousness"?

..

And the basis used by TNZ to determine that the crashes were potentially serious. TNZ are claiming that every time a vehicle hits a WRB a 'potentially serious' crash has been averted (in some cases even 'a fatal crash'). But in reality, without the barrier, a lot of the incidents would have come to nothing. Simply because there wasn't a vehicle in the wrong place on the other side of the road, or the drivers took successful evasive action.

5. Is the Minister aware of initiatives in several European countries to retrofit WRB systems to make them safer for vulnerable road users ? Will the Minister advise the House what steps TNZ have taken to evaluate such retro-fitment for WRB installations in NZ , and the results of such studies (if any) (leave to table etc)

Hitcher
9th January 2008, 12:12
Good comments, Ixion! For political purposes it's always better to take Ministers on a bit of a journey, rather than straight to the destination. It's also advantageous to make a bit of work for their officials in drafting the responses...

You know you've won with this technique when a Minister decides to cut to the chase, rather than to continue/prolong the dance.

yungatart
9th January 2008, 12:15
Pardon my ignorance...
what is "leave to table"?

Hitcher
9th January 2008, 12:18
Pardon my ignorance...
what is "leave to table"?

Parliamentary lingo. The questioner seeks the House's permission (through the Speaker) to officially make a document a matter of public record.

MSTRS
9th January 2008, 12:20
I like the idea of 'officials running around madly...'
What say.... Q1 is asked by Hitcher through Mark Burton, Q2 by Ixion through Marion Hobbs, Q3 by Jim2 through Simon Power....etc.

Ixion
9th January 2008, 12:22
Derived from the fact that once (and perhaps still FAIK) , the documents were physically placed on a table in front of the Speaker, where any MP was at liberty to peruse them.

Mom
9th January 2008, 12:24
Oi've been thinking.



I like how you think!

Hitcher
9th January 2008, 12:25
I like the idea of 'officials running around madly...'
What say.... Q1 is asked by Hitcher through Mark Burton, Q2 by Ixion through Marion Hobbs, Q3 by Jim2 through Simon Power....etc.

That has merit. Discuss this first with Chris Tremain, seeing as he fired the first salvo, to see if he has the appetite to become a bit of a political champion for this cause or any other ideas he has about how the Nats may like to play with this.

MSTRS
9th January 2008, 12:26
Roger wilco!

MSTRS
9th January 2008, 15:54
Email sent....
Hi Chris

Thank you for the prompt response and answers. Those answers do nothing to indicate that Transit are taking our concerns seriously (yet) and I have been asked to sound you out on whether you would be interested in becoming 'our political champion' in this matter. There are a number of further questions we are keen to put to the Min.of Transport. Some of us think that we may be better to put one question through each of several different MPs, but my position is that co-ordinating with one MP who is 'on our side' would yield a better result.
I look forward to your reply.

Regards
mstrs

Hitcher
9th January 2008, 15:57
Nice work.

A little biker waits...

sunhuntin
9th January 2008, 17:44
Nice work.

A little biker waits...

*sits with hitch* now a not so little biker waits.

nice work mstrs. 127k? thats bull dust. maybe the different styles of wire rope indicate different brands? ie, the straight through triple rope is one, and the twisted double rope is another.

yungatart
9th January 2008, 17:56
*sits with hitch* now a not so little biker waits.

nice work mstrs. 127k? thats bull dust. maybe the different styles of wire rope indicate different brands? ie, the straight through triple rope is one, and the twisted double rope is another.

Correct. The question will be re-asked as to all types...

WelshWizard
9th January 2008, 18:02
Here's four for starters to help dig a slightly deeper hole for the Minister:

1. What is the basis of "compliance testing" on road barriers of all types erected in New Zealand? Does this include testing barriers once erected to ensure compliance with manufacturers' standards and, if so, what does this involve?

2. Is the Minister aware of moves by European countries to ban and remove WRB systems -- for safety reasons? How does he reconcile this with the "compliance testing" allegedly conducted by TNZ? (Seek leave to table before the House the relevant supporting documents)

3. What length of WRB is currently erected on New Zealand roads administered by TNZ? What plans are in place to erect more WRB and what lengths/distances are involved?

4. In answer to PQ# the Minister claimed that TNZ's review of the performance of WRB systems stated that these barriers had prevented a number of potentially serious crashes over years. Could the Minister please reveal how many crashes, the vehicle types involved, the location and type of WRB system erected, and TNZ's basis for determining "seriousness"?

I hope the Honorable Minister is as cute in answering these as he was with his first lot. "Cute" is a game two can play...

Maybe question 5 should be
5. How many people have actually been injured when colliding with WRB's, and how many have died.?

6. What steps are you takeing to reduce these deaths and mainings?

Hitcher
10th January 2008, 08:27
Maybe question 5 should be
5. How many people have actually been injured when colliding with WRB's, and how many have died.?

6. What steps are you takeing to reduce these deaths and mainings?

Let's save these for "Round 3".

Ocean1
10th January 2008, 09:02
The answers came back from Harry Duynhoven...
1.TNZs policy for the installation of a wire rope barrier system is the same as for all road safety barrier systems. That policy is that a barrier treatment is a recourse only when the risk of leaving the road cannot be managed the the removal, relocation or re-engineering of the hazard. A compliance tested barrier system is then selected that is appropriate to the nature of the hazard being avoided, the type of road traffic, and the road.


That's a good indication of the thinking behind WRB installations on the left side of some stretches. There's obviously no consideration of the disparity between what's safe for "standard" cages and everything else, including bikes.

Doesn't ecxplain some LH installations though, I've seen WRB "protecting" us from perfectly negotiable grass verge...


Maybe question 5 should be
5. How many people have actually been injured when colliding with WRB's, and how many have died.?

6. What steps are you takeing to reduce these deaths and mainings?

I'd be very carefull there, even trimmed of doublespeak the answers may not serve us well. Unlike some I have no doubt WRBs do actually represent a viable safety option, for family saloons in some instances. I expect genuine historic data will support that, it's just that they're a serious liability for anything else.

The problem with the numbers is that, given that the majority of road users are (arguably) advantaged by these things any supporting stat's will always look like a reasonable cost/benefit decision has been made. Perhaps a better aproach is to force comparisons with barrier systems which perform better for all forms of transport. That, and continue to stress how dangerous WRBs are to bikers in particular.

WelshWizard
13th January 2008, 08:38
I just heard that Dan ( Back __fire ) was not the first biker to be killed in NZ by these things, it would seem some one was killed a few years ago by them, Still trying to get more info from the person who told me about it, unless some one on KB knows about or has a link.

MSTRS
13th January 2008, 09:05
Someone was killed in Welly, after striking Armco posts. In 2000, if I remember right. They were decapitated.

MSTRS
15th January 2008, 17:17
Have heard last night that indeed a biker was killed some few years ago, by striking cheesecutter. Was the brother of my step-son's boss. The boss rides too, and we are working on getting hold of him with a view to him joining our ranks...
In the meantime, here is an article I wrote for the local free weekly, the NapierMail. Hope it is readable, as they don't have the page online.

sAsLEX
15th January 2008, 17:34
hmmm I see little point in some of the new barriers and there location!

On the way in to Picton you go through miles of road all similar in construction and roadside hazards...... until you get to a new passing lane...... which has the same roadside hazards but for some reason this passing lane needs a barrier on the left in order to stop? Couldn't for the life of me figure it out, why the barrier was installed when road exactly the same on the other side of the road is un-barriered, and then the barrier stops but the road doesn't change.

Do people randomly suddenly swing left when faced with passing lanes?

sunhuntin
15th January 2008, 19:24
i left the red tape on my jacket after the taupo meet, and have been asked several times by members of the public its meaning. i explain things basically, always emphasising the photo of the car that got turned into a convertible. ive left the website addy a few times.

WelshWizard
16th January 2008, 21:34
We seem to be prattling on but, the Cheese cutters are still there, and LTNZ are giving the impression that things will be forgotten,

As people forget about those who were killed by the WRB

first in 2005 Rider decapitated

then 2007 Rider cut in half ( nearly into three)

All they did was churn out their stock answers in the hope that the problem would go away, as the media soon forgets.


SO

Now what are we going to do to move this on so they know we are not going away this time.
And bring it into the media again,
We need to put in in their faces as much as possible

DEATH_INC.
16th January 2008, 21:41
The petitions are still out there, that's still really the next step. It won't be too long before they're collected up so we still need to drive people to sign up. You may be surprised who's on our side, I've had some very unlikely people sign the one at work.....:niceone:

WelshWizard
16th January 2008, 21:45
And what happened to the petition that was started after the rider was decapitated in 2005, LTNZ just ignore it or was it never submitted?

DEATH_INC.
16th January 2008, 21:48
I really don't know, I'd not heard of it.
If we get the numbers they cannot ignore it.

WelshWizard
16th January 2008, 21:50
If the other one was submitted then they have coosen to ignore it, makes a mockery of the TV statement that LTNZ made that they were not aware of any issue regarding the cheese cutters

sunhuntin
16th January 2008, 21:57
i dont recall hearing about a petition in 05 either... i dont think i was yet a member. had i known about it, i would have signed.

WelshWizard
16th January 2008, 22:15
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=59539&page=11


Someone was killed in Welly, after striking Armco posts. In 2000, if I remember right. They were decapitated.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82671&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1200374222

if you goto the picture im MSTRS post and read it you will see the paper published in Jan 2006 states that a patition was orginised and Cheesecutter.co.nz set up as a responce to the decapitation of the Auckland Rider, I belive the rider lived only 5 Ks from where I live, so so far two lads have been murdered by these wire barriers, both lived within 5 Ks of each other.

RiderInBlack
17th January 2008, 06:18
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=59539&page=11



http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82671&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1200374222

if you goto the picture im MSTRS post and read it you will see the paper published in Jan 2006 states that a patition was orginised and Cheesecutter.co.nz set up as a responce to the decapitation of the Auckland Rider, I belive the rider lived only 5 Ks from where I live, so so far two lads have been murdered by these wire barriers, both lived within 5 Ks of each other.Sorry WW, but blew that pic up and I get that the date on the paper is Wednesday, January 16 2008. That makes it an article relating to ya son's death and the present Cheesecutter campaign.
Yes we do need ta organise another ride (IMHO). We also need to spend more time making all bikers aware that a protest ride is on. Bike Mags need to get involved.

DEATH_INC.
17th January 2008, 06:25
Sorry WW, but blew that pic up and I get that the date on the paper is Wednesday, January 16 2008. That makes it an article relating to ya son's death and the present Cheesecutter campaign.
Yes we do need ta organise another ride (IMHO). We also need to spend more time making all bikers aware that a protest ride is on. Bike Mags need to get involved.
There will be a ride to deliver the petition, prolly be a good idea to get publicity rolling asap.

RiderInBlack
17th January 2008, 06:54
There will be a ride to deliver the petition.Is there a date for that yet?

Is there anyway we can set something up (like a banner and petition signing stall) for Paeroa Battle of The Streets?

MSTRS
17th January 2008, 07:54
Is there a date for that yet?

Is there anyway we can set something up (like a banner and petition signing stall) for Paeroa Battle of The Streets?

Great idea. I am planning to be there, and can bring two flags, which can be draped off a table. Would be willing to man it for a time as well.
And WW, Death-Inc is right...the article was just printed and referred to your lad's misfortune.

cold comfort
17th January 2008, 11:13
This is part of an email response form a local BRONZ repersentative. A hard working advocate for local bikers but when a person such as this believes WRB are a fait accompli it does nto bode well for organised resistence. If Harry Dynhoven is merely going to continue to dismiss overseas evidence i can undestand the lack of will demonstrated here. "But - the reality is wire rope barriers are no better or worse than other barriers.
The wire rope barriers do save lives and that is clear from the results of the Kapiti Coast Highway north of Wgtn - they are designed to stop cars and they do that well despite what we all think as motorcyclists."

James Deuce
17th January 2008, 12:39
The wire rope barriers do save lives and that is clear from the results of the Kapiti Coast Highway north of Wgtn - they are designed to stop cars and they do that well despite what we all think as motorcyclists."

No they don't and they can turn even a large car into a convertible. It happens more often than you'd think and the motorcycling issue isn't the sole reason why they are being, banned, clad, and removed in some European countries. The WRBs require an oblique strike to be effective. Hit them dead on and you are in all sorts of trouble even in a car.

I've been with a concrete barrier at speed with no injuries other than a broken wrist and that was from landing on my outstretched arm. An oblique strike on a concrete barrier is eminently survivable. An oblique strike on a WRB for a tumbling body is a proper problem.

WelshWizard
17th January 2008, 15:40
I will be at the Pukekohe Classics Friday Saturday and Sunday, must print of as many as possible to try and get some more sigs, any one want to help, I should be able to get some of the riders from the pits, will try and get a place for a table,

As for the paper, sorry but I was ubder the impression it was about the other rider, Rudi told me about him, he came from Titirangi, and was killed by decapitation in 2005. Still trying to find a link the the actual accident.

Genestho
17th January 2008, 18:27
Keep bangin away, never give up, educate the public. Goodluck on your mission jim's

kb_SF1
17th January 2008, 18:55
There has to be an election before the end of the year, if harry (a yes man on minor issues) and the rest who feed at the trough are suseptible to sustained publicity and pressure. The presentation of a petition at parliment supported by a large group of bike riders with national media coverage will apply pressure.

There is no logical reason for barriers on the left, the escape route or to continue with the cheap and nasty option.

I'll be at pukekohe and paeroa and will help where I can.

kb

Genestho
17th January 2008, 19:01
Exactly - the key words :election year.

Go Hard and Go Loud

James Deuce
17th January 2008, 21:57
Exactly - the key words :election year.

Go Hard and Go Loud
Be prepared to go to court if you do go hard and loud.

Labour have made it illegal to campaign on anything during an election year if you aren't a political party or have an "interest" (it's free to register).

WelshWizard
17th January 2008, 22:33
Well we will need some help with stuff to put up, has any one got any posters about the WRB yet, maybe Zapf or Draco might have some.
I ned to get in contact with the mob who run it to see what has to be done to get a table for the protest forms

cold comfort
17th January 2008, 23:10
I too am irritated and surprised as to the soft and accommodating position BRONZ appear to be taking, hence my last post witht the email comments of an official. Could someone please email me an image of the "convertible car". They are going to go all compliant with the radar detector ban too by the sound of it, despite (a) there being no evidence world wide they impinge on road safety and (b) they are an asset with regard to the Safety Warning System used in Aussie:angry2:

James Deuce
18th January 2008, 00:39
People are only pissy about radar detectors because they spent a not insignificant sum of money on them.

I don't understand what the hell ANYONE needs them for.

cold comfort
18th January 2008, 07:58
People are only pissy about radar detectors because they spent a not insignificant sum of money on them.

I don't understand what the hell ANYONE needs them for.

Then sir, you must be one of those ideal citizens the govt would all like us to be, never exceeding the speed limit even in a passing manoeuvre! The rest of us mere mortals can only aspire to such perfection. Obviously there is some investment but the issue here is THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO WARRANT THEIR BANNING. There is also no evidence that people with them habitually speed btw
If someone was randomly going to remove my in car sound system or GPS (cos it may be distracting) i would be equally pissed for the same reasons

MSTRS
18th January 2008, 08:11
Could someone please email me an image of the "convertible car". They are going to go all compliant with the radar detector ban too by the sound of it, despite

The image is on the Cheesecutter resource thread...

People are only pissy about radar detectors because they spent a not insignificant sum of money on them.

I don't understand what the hell ANYONE needs them for.
Partly true

Then sir, you must be one of those ideal citizens the govt would all like us to be, never exceeding the speed limit even in a passing manoeuvre!
Eh, wrong!!
The govt wants us to get caught and therefore pay fines

Genestho
18th January 2008, 09:28
Be prepared to go to court if you do go hard and loud.

Labour have made it illegal to campaign on anything during an election year if you aren't a political party or have an "interest" (it's free to register).

Its all in how you do it...think it through and do it properly, cross your t's dot your i's. Legal consultation helps to keep you on the right track...
Some people say any publicity is good publicity.

sAsLEX
18th January 2008, 11:31
I don't understand what the hell ANYONE needs them for.


Then sir, you must be one of those ideal citizens the govt would all like us to be, never exceeding the speed limit even in a passing manoeuvre!

Umm maybe he uses his brain and its associated sensors, the eyes, to examine the road ahead. Radar can only travel in sight lines anyways*, and chooses to speed in areas where it is appropriate and the likely hood of :Police: saying hello is low?

James Deuce
18th January 2008, 13:01
I had a radar detector once and my wife got a ticket.

Threw the bloody thing away and never had another one.

Time & place. SH1, SH2, SH5, SH27. Expect the rozzas. Drive to the conditions. Treat the dreaded radar/laser and operator as a weather condition and all will be revealed.

cold comfort
18th January 2008, 18:16
Umm maybe he uses his brain and its associated sensors, the eyes, to examine the road ahead. Radar can only travel in sight lines anyways*, and chooses to speed in areas where it is appropriate and the likely hood of :Police: saying hello is low?

As i friend said "i resemble that" ,rather pious response.I have only recently acquired a RD, and have not, to date, used it on my bike. I have also not incurred the wrath of the constabulary for many years by using the methods described above. No tickets in other words. I would tend to concur that RD's are not much use anyway. Its more the principle of being told i can't have something for no good reason.

DEATH_INC.
18th January 2008, 18:24
you guys are wandering a bit off topic eh.....back to the cutters....

SixPackBack
18th January 2008, 18:51
Just a thought! With the new motorway extension between Albany and Puhoi it maybe a great opportunity to push hard for a cheesecutter free zone. The time-line is long enough to exert some real pressure and perhaps local picketing or some sort of ride by might help keep the subject in the public's mind. With an election not to far off our local MP Lockwood Smith could be pressured into action, the positive spin could help his campaign.

sAsLEX
18th January 2008, 19:41
Just a thought! With the new motorway extension between Albany and Puhoi it maybe a great opportunity to push hard for a cheesecutter free zone. The time-line is long enough to exert some real pressure and perhaps local picketing or some sort of ride by might help keep the subject in the public's mind. With an election not to far off our local MP Lockwood Smith could be pressured into action, the positive spin could help his campaign.

Especially since the new busway got fancy new concrete barriers only a few klicks south of that.

MSTRS
18th January 2008, 19:49
Just a thought! With the new motorway extension between Albany and Puhoi it maybe a great opportunity to push hard for a cheesecutter free zone.

Give that man a beer!!
But I thought that particular stretch of new road is to be tolled? In which case, very few if any bikes will use it??

swbarnett
18th January 2008, 19:52
Give that man a beer!!
But I thought that particular stretch of new road is to be tolled? In which case, very few if any bikes will use it??
It won't be tolled forever (I hope). Best to get in now before the barriers go in.

Does anyone what type of barrier is planned for this road? No point protesting if they're already intending to use concrete.

sAsLEX
18th January 2008, 19:57
Give that man a beer!!
But I thought that particular stretch of new road is to be tolled? In which case, very few if any bikes will use it??

And it will be lacking "Corners", and the old road with bends will be less congested....... what new road?

James Deuce
19th January 2008, 14:39
And it will be lacking "Corners", and the old road with bends will be less congested....... what new road?
Remember Alan Wilkinson? He just didn't understand our point of view, did he? :)

Bikernereid
19th January 2008, 16:01
Have spread the word round this neck of the woods so hopefully more people will add signatures to help your campaign. It is just such a shame that your government can't learn from our mistakes, stop being so bloody fiscally driven and be humanitarian for a change!!


Have heard last night that indeed a biker was killed some few years ago, by striking cheesecutter. Was the brother of my step-son's boss. The boss rides too, and we are working on getting hold of him with a view to him joining our ranks...
In the meantime, here is an article I wrote for the local free weekly, the NapierMail. Hope it is readable, as they don't have the page online.

El Dopa
20th January 2008, 17:42
Have spread the word round this neck of the woods so hopefully more people will add signatures to help your campaign. It is just such a shame that your government can't learn from our mistakes, stop being so bloody fiscally driven and be humanitarian for a change!!

I think I am correct in saying that UK names on an NZ petition is at best useless and at worst actively damaging. So please don't point UK people towards the NZ on-line petition.

I say this because this is a proper, formal petition, formatted in the correct style for proper submission to government (i.e. it isn't a 'save the gay whales' highstreet job).

Because only NZ citizens/residents are entitled to a say in the NZ legal/democratic/governmental processes, only NZ names wil be counted. A whole bunch of overseas names will at best be discounted, and at worst will 'corrupt' the petition and cause the whole thing to be invalid.

This is my understanding of how these things work. Someone please correct me if this is wrong.

Bikernereid
20th January 2008, 21:51
I have noticed that there are non NZ racers who have signed the petition and there is quite strong feeling in some biker circles in the UK regarding this issue. People here want to offer thier support but if it will definitely be detrimental to the cause please let me know.

I would have thought that it is important to raise awareness of this issue outside NZ as it affects the safety of visitors too. I have just spent over 2 weeks on the back of bikes going round the North island and believe me I was very aware of the cheesecutters and the potential damage they can cause. I was only aware of this because of knowing a Kiwi who was living in the UK when the last fatality occured.


I think I am correct in saying that UK names on an NZ petition is at best useless and at worst actively damaging. So please don't point UK people towards the NZ on-line petition.

I say this because this is a proper, formal petition, formatted in the correct style for proper submission to government (i.e. it isn't a 'save the gay whales' highstreet job).

Because only NZ citizens/residents are entitled to a say in the NZ legal/democratic/governmental processes, only NZ names wil be counted. A whole bunch of overseas names will at best be discounted, and at worst will 'corrupt' the petition and cause the whole thing to be invalid.

This is my understanding of how these things work. Someone please correct me if this is wrong.

Gixxer 4 ever
22nd January 2008, 10:14
People are only pissy about radar detectors because they spent a not insignificant sum of money on them.

I don't understand what the hell ANYONE needs them for.

Because I speed all the time and the R/D makes it an even playing field. What don't you understand.FFS. I will still have one when they are illegal. You can get stealth ones now and build them in to the bikes. So the game goes on. I hate the PC shit that so many adhere to. What happened to being an individual with drive and passion to live life to the full.

Gixxer 4 ever
22nd January 2008, 10:21
Ok, here we go in the new year. I see little happening. So who would be in for a disruptive ride in Auckland and or Wellington? I am talking about riding in all the lanes on the motorway at slow speeds at peak time. Wheelies and stunt riding all over the place with guns and weapons drawn. No number plates and an attack on all police cars that turn up. We are happy to die on the roads so lets go out fighting. Who would support a ride like this? To what extent should we take this action? This is a Government that is very thick skinned and needs a big stick to make it hurt. We have a public that is so burdened with rules and regulations that they can not think. BRONZ is trying but it is prepared to wait for years. So PC. I know about PC and how you have to work in the rules but it is not working so is it time go out side the rules. I will sit on the side and see what sort of reaction this has and decided if it is worth persisting with this or just letting it go and start conforming.

James Deuce
22nd January 2008, 11:26
Because I speed all the time and the R/D makes it an even playing field. What don't you understand.FFS. I will still have one when they are illegal. You can get stealth ones now and build them in to the bikes. So the game goes on. I hate the PC shit that so many adhere to. What happened to being an individual with drive and passion to live life to the full.

I'm not being PC. I've never had one, and never seen the need, and I'm no angel. I've never had a ticket.

There's no need to be "angry" because I don't subscribe to your world view, or am I not allowed to say, " I don't understand what the hell ANYONE needs them for"?

What happened to common sense, discipline, and control? They're all good non-PC values too. There's plenty of places to go hog wild where no one will see you, especially up your way.

Gixxer 4 ever
22nd January 2008, 16:38
There's no need to be "angry" because I don't subscribe to your world view, or am I not allowed to say, " I don't understand what the hell ANYONE needs them for"?.

Yes you can say that. And thats all I did. I explained why I have one. People talk about the use of R/D for safety. The only time they work in that field are when Mr Plod leaves his radar on when at an accident. Thats good cos we know to slow down. But we have them to stop the tax take being to high. And why shouldn't we?




What happened to common sense, discipline, and control? They're all good non-PC values too. There's plenty of places to go hog wild where no one will see you, especially up your way.



\Yes I have common sense, discipline, and control. If not I would have had more than one ticket in the last 4 years. None since I have had the R/D. How can we have a system that pushes "speed kills" and then puts up CC to kill us? We don't have the death penalty in NZ for murder but we do for bike riders that make a mistake. Angry?............ you bet......... Why are so many people just sitting on their hands and not doing anything about the CC????
Rather than attack the R/D stay on topic.

Part of the problem here is we have so many threads about this and they have good stuff in them but so many are full of off topic shit and it is impossible to find a thread that is of any use to organise or do anything with. Just what the wankers want. Stay divided and we will achieve nothing. It is my opinion that we are not going to achieve anything with the representation from BRONZ. Some really good stuff is being done here by MSTRS and TART and others but nothing from the masses in Auckland and Wellington. Arr stuff it why bother...........

yungatart
22nd January 2008, 16:45
You bother, Steve, because you care!
Same as us!
It will be a long road to get these things done away with.
BRONZ will do the "softly, softly, catchee monkey" stuff, whilst KBers (and others) will do the "I'm in your face, and I ain't going away!" stuff.

Don't lose heart, mate. We need you on board doing all the good stuff you do.

The Cheesecutter Resource thread has heaps of valuable "things to do" stuff in it.

James Deuce
22nd January 2008, 17:03
Right. I'll fuck off then.

Go to hell.

MSTRS
22nd January 2008, 17:13
You get caught by a whoopee cushion at work, Jim?
We are all on the same side here.
You don't like the fkn cheesecutters any more than we do, and you have to ride by them everyday.
RD's are another issue, and one of personal choice (at least whilst they are legal) so let's agree that some like 'em and some don't see the point.
Having, or not, a RD will not kill you, will it? Or chop off limbs.

RiderInBlack
22nd January 2008, 19:25
Would like ta see some anti-CC protest banners tied ta the WRB's, well before I'd ever have anything to do with a "Hoons'" Disruptive ride. IMHO it would be the last thing we need. Would cause Joe Public ta side with LT (and that would definitely be no good).
I would though, be right behind another protest ride organise like the first one.

I am still disappointed in the weak effort Bike Mags have taken to report the protest ride (like none). There should be at least an ad for the Petition and where people can sign it. Feb Kiwi Rider BRONZ page has a bit about what they are doing about WRB, but not once did they make mention on the Petition. Would have been good if they had encouraged people ta get behind it and sign it.

sunhuntin
22nd January 2008, 19:33
is overseas support really detrimental to the cause? theres a mag i buy religiously called old bike australasia [tis the only one i buy instead of waiting to get free from work, lol] and i think they would be keen to publish a letter reguarding this, and maybe do an article if talked to nicely. lol. its aussie based, but a damn good mag.

MSTRS
22nd January 2008, 19:39
is overseas support really detrimental to the cause? theres a mag i buy religiously called old bike australasia [tis the only one i buy instead of waiting to get free from work, lol] and i think they would be keen to publish a letter reguarding this, and maybe do an article if talked to nicely. lol. its aussie based, but a damn good mag.

That mag obviously has merit since it at least gives the nod to including NZ. So, put an article together using the resource thread, get Hitcher to OK it and submit for publication.

Meekey_Mouse
22nd January 2008, 19:39
After the Parachute festival I'd be happy to get behind another protest ride. Tbh, I think the gov. will do what they won't and unless we get at least a thousand bikers/car drivers behind us.

Maybe we need to focus on getting cagers behind this? Many of them don't realize the risk that these pose to cars. So far every time I've shown a cager that photo of the red car that's been ripped open they have been mortified and signed the petition. What if we planned another "ride/drive" and advertised it in car forums/magazines? We would need a bit more planning (esp. on route) as cars take up more space then bikes... but we could advertise a lot more on the cars with bigger flags etc... Thoughts?

sunhuntin
22nd January 2008, 20:01
That mag obviously has merit since it at least gives the nod to including NZ. So, put an article together using the resource thread, get Hitcher to OK it and submit for publication.

i will write a letter and send it to them, and take it from there. i will include the photo of the car in hope they print that with the letter.

RiderInBlack
22nd January 2008, 20:16
is overseas support really detrimental to the cause? theres a mag i buy religiously called old bike australasia [tis the only one i buy instead of waiting to get free from work, lol] and i think they would be keen to publish a letter reguarding this, and maybe do an article if talked to nicely. lol. its aussie based, but a damn good mag.This good, but how many NZers read it? Should not Kiwi Mags be also targeted with an article. Sorry ta harp on, but I feel more NZ'ers should be made aware of this, and feel that the first stop should be main steam Kiwi Bike Mags.

MSTRS
22nd January 2008, 20:31
This good, but how many NZers read it? Should not Kiwi Mags be also targeted with an article. Sorry ta harp on, but I feel more NZ'ers should be made aware of this, and feel that the first stop should be main steam Kiwi Bike Mags.

You are sort of right. The fact that NZ closely follows Oz in matters concerning roads could work by getting a foot in the front door, so to speak. If we get Oz bikers etc going on the subject, and work in conjunction with them, it could hold a great deal of sway in high places,

sunhuntin
22nd January 2008, 20:40
This good, but how many NZers read it? Should not Kiwi Mags be also targeted with an article. Sorry ta harp on, but I feel more NZ'ers should be made aware of this, and feel that the first stop should be main steam Kiwi Bike Mags.

im not sure how many read it... and from what ive read the last couple of pages here, the kiwi mags could care less. [it seems]

im starting with a base letter, which i will write tomorrow when im more awake and can have a hunt through the resources thread.

Gixxer 4 ever
22nd January 2008, 20:47
Right. I'll fuck off then.

Go to hell.

PM sent. This is not what I wanted. Sorry Jim2. It appears I have over stepped the mark here. Please read the PM.

Gixxer 4 ever
22nd January 2008, 20:52
After the Parachute festival I'd be happy to get behind another protest ride. Tbh, I think the gov. will do what they won't and unless we get at least a thousand bikers/car drivers behind us.

Maybe we need to focus on getting cagers behind this? Many of them don't realize the risk that these pose to cars. So far every time I've shown a cager that photo of the red car that's been ripped open they have been mortified and signed the petition. What if we planned another "ride/drive" and advertised it in car forums/magazines? We would need a bit more planning (esp. on route) as cars take up more space then bikes... but we could advertise a lot more on the cars with bigger flags etc... Thoughts?

I am with Meekey on this. Lets see what we can sort out when you come back from Hamilton. We need to be out on the road again. And no I don't expect you to get arrested. But a lota bikes is what we need. Maybe plan this for 3 months time and try and get people to take a day off to join the ride. Make this a big one for the cause.

DEATH_INC.
22nd January 2008, 20:54
Maybe we need to focus on getting cagers behind this? Many of them don't realize the risk that these pose to cars. So far every time I've shown a cager that photo of the red car that's been ripped open they have been mortified and signed the petition. What if we planned another "ride/drive" and advertised it in car forums/magazines? We would need a bit more planning (esp. on route) as cars take up more space then bikes... but we could advertise a lot more on the cars with bigger flags etc... Thoughts?
Early in the piece I e-mailed the nzhra thinking they'd be fairly concerned for the safety of t-bucket and other open car drivers, but I guess not as I never heard anything from them....
Interesting though, working in a car tyre shop, I've had heaps of them sign the petition, most without even bringing it to their attention. The pic of the falcon does the trick...

WelshWizard
22nd January 2008, 20:56
is overseas support really detrimental to the cause? theres a mag i buy religiously called old bike australasia [tis the only one i buy instead of waiting to get free from work, lol] and i think they would be keen to publish a letter reguarding this, and maybe do an article if talked to nicely. lol. its aussie based, but a damn good mag.

Its has a small dist, as it been only going a couple of years and target Classic Bikers and every bit helps if they back any petition to remove the WRBs




This good, but how many NZers read it? Should not Kiwi Mags be also targeted with an article. Sorry ta harp on, but I feel more NZ'ers should be made aware of this, and feel that the first stop should be main steam Kiwi Bike Mags.

From what I can gather a few thousand in New Zealand buy it, so there will be more who read it.


You are sort of right. The fact that NZ closely follows Oz in matters concerning roads could work by getting a foot in the front door, so to speak. If we get Oz bikers etc going on the subject, and work in conjunction with them, it could hold a great deal of sway in high places,


The WRBs effect the Oz riders as well, the more they get uptight about WRBs the better, any overspill from them will help the NZ campaign.
In fact the more countries that start protesting about the WRBs the better, aim for a world wide ban on them and NZ may start to take us seriously. and as for overseas people signing the petition , maybe we need one just for overseas people so we could send the oversea on to the Tourist Board, after all they won't like a bad image for NZ and possible lose of tourist trade because tourist don't want to drive on our roads because they have to put up with WRBs here when they have been made illegal in their country

RiderInBlack
22nd January 2008, 20:57
Think what ya are planning ta doing is awesome Sunhuntin.
Have the Kiwi Bike Mags been contacted? We need ta sell they on caring about this issue. If we can't get them on baord, how are we going ta fair with the rest of NZ?
Just my gut feeling on this.

WelshWizard
22nd January 2008, 22:20
Just had some good news from Irish Biker Forum

http://www.irishbikerforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=66103
Seems they have started removing some of the WRBs

Pixie
23rd January 2008, 01:00
Early in the piece I e-mailed the nzhra thinking they'd be fairly concerned for the safety of t-bucket and other open car drivers, but I guess not as I never heard anything from them....
Interesting though, working in a car tyre shop, I've had heaps of them sign the petition, most without even bringing it to their attention. The pic of the falcon does the trick...

Try the MX5 club,Porsche,MG etc.-sports cars are particularly vulnerable to WRB's

Gixxer 4 ever
23rd January 2008, 05:08
Thanks for the red bling Bell. Hope you are out doing somthin to stop them. Did I meet you in Wellington or was it in Taupo on the protest ride?








It would be better to bring your comments here so it can stimulate discussion. That's what the post was about. But you don't know me so I guess you missed the point.

El Dopa
23rd January 2008, 17:36
I have noticed that there are non NZ racers who have signed the petition and there is quite strong feeling in some biker circles in the UK regarding this issue. People here want to offer thier support but if it will definitely be detrimental to the cause please let me know.

I would have thought that it is important to raise awareness of this issue outside NZ as it affects the safety of visitors too. I have just spent over 2 weeks on the back of bikes going round the North island and believe me I was very aware of the cheesecutters and the potential damage they can cause. I was only aware of this because of knowing a Kiwi who was living in the UK when the last fatality occured.

Just had a thought. If anyone in the UK or elsewhere wants to help out, they could possibly write to NZ MP's:

"I visited your wonderful country, it was great, best holiday ever blah blah blah, but I ws very concerned to see lots of WRB's everywhere. They are banned in my home country because they are rilly, rilly dangerous and I hope you ban them soon otherwise I won't come back and therefore you won't get your mitts on my lovely foreign currency. Yours sincerely, tourist".

WelshWizard
23rd January 2008, 21:23
Just came across this letter on the web


To The Editor Motor Cycle News

DEADLY WIRE ROPE BARRIERS FOR UK ROADS – MCN DECEMBER 12th

I can assure your readers that the IAM Motoring Trust is not campaigning for wire rope crash barriers on UK roads. In a study we commissioned at the beginning of the year, reported in MCN on the 18th April, we identified both wire rope and armco type barriers as being potentially lethal to riders, and particularly their supporting metal posts.

Following that initial scoping study, the IAM Trust is sponsoring a major international research study of the potential risks of crash barriers to riders, and how designs can be changed to make to make them "rider friendly". Experts from road authorities, motoring / rider clubs and rider interest groups are working together on the project steering group to find the answers. The report of the IAM Trust sponsored study will be published towards the end of next year.


The EuroRAP star rating system rates a road on how well it prevents head on collisions, side impacts at junctions and run-off accidents. Steve Farrell’s article highlights one possible way of doing this but The IAM Trust would not support any system that increased the risk for motorcyclists. In general upgrading our roads to 4 star would benefit motorcyclists as much as any other road user.



Neil

Neil Greig

Director

IAM Motoring Trust

after seeing a post about how the IAM was suposed to be supporting the installation of WRBs in Britain I thought it only fair to post their responce

http://www.iam.org.uk/pressroom/drivingtips/Wire+rope+roads+-+a+letter+to+MCN+from+the+IAM+Motoring+Trust.htm

sunhuntin
24th January 2008, 06:47
The WRBs effect the Oz riders as well, the more they get uptight about WRBs the better, any overspill from them will help the NZ campaign.
In fact the more countries that start protesting about the WRBs the better, aim for a world wide ban on them and NZ may start to take us seriously. and as for overseas people signing the petition , maybe we need one just for overseas people so we could send the oversea on to the Tourist Board, after all they won't like a bad image for NZ and possible lose of tourist trade because tourist don't want to drive on our roads because they have to put up with WRBs here when they have been made illegal in their country

that intl only petition is a damn good idea! im on several american boards, as im sure many other members here are. plus american boards often have members from other countries as well.

yes, OBA has only been going some 18 months, but from what i gather from the letters page, it seems popular there if not here, as they are printing updates and additional info relating to previous articles almost every issue.

Nikolai_V
24th January 2008, 11:34
Hi, i`m new here, (post No.2) and in teh great NZ tradition i`d like to have my 2c worth on this topic, seeing as its something i both know a bit about, (being a roading engineer) and have an interest in, being a motorcyclist.

First though a statement from the notes of the last Road Safety Engineering Workshop... "In general crash barriers, (armco, thrie-beam, new jersey concrete or brifen wire rope) should only be used where the consequences of hitting the hazard it protects / going off the cliff behind it are worse than the likely effects of hitting the barrier" paraphrased but fundamentally the same.

Like it or not, engineering is all about a utilitarian good, the best outcome for the greatest number of people. Barriers cost money, concrete barriers cost more than armco, which costs more than brifen. More barriers equal less head on collisions (which incidentally result in casualty accidents in motorcyclists at a rate four times higher than car drivers), which equals less casualties.

We dont want to kill any particular road user group, to most of us in the industry we`re here because we actually want to make things better... Nothing depresses me more than getting the months crash reports on my desk and seeing the same old crap each month, no matter what we do. As long as everyone is either micheal shumacher or valentino rossi, people will die in their hundreds in NZ. You cant put barriers in peoples heads to make them not speed inappropriatley, overtake dangerously, ignore the warning signs of fatigue, drive drunk/drugged etc. We just put a band-aid on the problem, and try to strike the best balance between competing priorities.
I don`t mean in anyway to diminish the sense of loss and suffering felt by the families and victims of road crashes, but a healthy sense of perspective is needed here. How many fatalities have been directly attributed to the WRSB/brifen barriers? One highly publicised case. How many lives have been saved because of them? well that doesnt get mentioned as often.

We have a limited road safety budget to allocate, placing concrete barriers everywhere is not an option, nor even the best option. Dissipating your kinetic energy as you impact into anything is going to be risky regardless of what you hit. Barrier systems are rated and designed to prevent gating (penetration) and be redirective, however what is effective for a 2.5t pickup will not be for motorcycles. 0.4% of all road travel in New Zealand is via motorcycle, with motorcyclists and pillions making up 6.5% of road deaths and hospitalisations. Motorcycle accidents are primarily urban phenomena (which concurs with what most of us know, that inattentive car drivers are at fault a good chunk of the time) not many vehicles pulling out in the boondocks.

All these statistics - get to the point. The point is this. Data from before the introduction of brifen in NZ showed that 3/4 of single vehicle motorcycle accidents resulted in fatalities or hospitalisation. before Brifen. In other words we are killing ourselves on the roads, through inattention, overestimating our skills and abilities, misjudging the carriageway and (the kicker) hitting fences.

Thats it, fences and ditches are what we`re flying into - fully 6 times more often than barriers. In NZ we were hitting more animals than guard rails. Even better, Australian stats showed that only 5% of casualty accidents involved striking a roadside object. as opposed to 4.6% from head on accidents. So lets see, of that 5% of crashes we were injured more often by (in order) fences, ditches, other, parked cars, cliffs/banks, animals than guard rails. puts it in perspective.

It is accepted within the industry that the posts on barrier systems result in the vast majority of injuries, armco barriers, unless bridge rail (i.e. down to the carriageway) also have posts which are particularly unpleasant to slide into.

The point has been raised that if we magically turned all the brifen barriers into concrete, motorcyclists would be safe, beer would be free, speed limits would raise etc.

Unfortunatly, brifen has a very small footprint, and is suitable for situations where barriers were needed (for safety reasons) but could`nt be installed using traditional barriers. We couldnt replace all the brifen with concrete (Note i`m not talking about the median brifen in large grass medians - thats there as a means of slowing cars and preventing head ons, while still being able to be taken down to allow emergency vehicle access)

Rant over. My 2c worth - i ride, and i`m happy to take the risk with them, at least i can control whether or not i run off the road into a barrier (or just off the road in general), as opposed to someone asleep at the wheel who runs head on into my lane.

Just a thought, how many of you would fly domestically, if you knew that two 737`s would crash each year killing all aboard?? - same as the road toll.

Waiting for the angry flames, Nick

MSTRS
24th January 2008, 11:50
.... How many fatalities have been directly attributed to the WRSB/brifen barriers? One highly publicised case. How many lives have been saved because of them? well that doesnt get mentioned as often.

....

We understand there to have been two. But hey, they were only motorcyclists, right?
FFS, it's not rocket science...for a safety system to be be utilised, it must be safe. What does it matter why a motorcyclist hits one of these things - if s/he is killed by it, then the 'safety' aspect is a joke. A very poor one at that.

Ixion
24th January 2008, 12:01
Those are , perhaps, valid points in the abstract (though all, of them resolve down to "we use WRB cos it's cheap"). But I'm not worried about being cut in half in the abstract. Its's being cut in half in the personal I'm worried about.

The essence of your argument is that it is acceptable to knowingly kill motorcyclists, if a greater number of cagers will not be killed. And killing motorcyclists is cheaper than implementing systems that kill neither motorcyclists nor cagers.

I am a motorcyclist. I am opposed to things designed to kill me (and that is precisely what WRBs are designed to do, you couldn't design a better killing device if you tried). I don't give a stuff how many cagers they save. Motorcyclists' lives are not a negotiable currency.

As to the "but they save motorcyclists from head ons" argument: In over 40 years on the road I have only twice encountered a potential head-on.Both times it was not difficult to take the necessary evasive action. Cars do cross the centre line, but the likelihood of one doing so in a place where I am and cannot avoid it is microscopic. The cheescutters are ALWAYS there. They cannot be avoided.

As to the "we only put them where the risk of hitting whatever is behind them is worse": come up to Auckland and I will show you miles of the stuff on the Waikato expressway, protecting nothing but scrubby fields.

MSTRS
24th January 2008, 12:09
a potential head-on.Both times it was not difficult to take the necessary evasive action. Cars do cross the centre line, but the likelihood of one doing so in a place where I am and cannot avoid it is microscopic. The cheescutters are ALWAYS there. They cannot be avoided.


And with the flex involved, you will still need to take evasive action, probably to the left...straight into the cunting stuff on the road edge!!!

sunhuntin
24th January 2008, 12:10
i disagree 100% with everything you said, nikoli

one death caused by a wire rope barrier is too many. one death is enough to tear a family and a community to shreds, especially when a concrete barrier would have not caused that death. danials death was not a result of what you list as the main causes [fatigue, drink and drug] from what i understand, frame failure is what started the incident. coming into contact with the wire ropes is what ended his life. had he hit concrete, he would likely have been very sore, but alive.

brifen has a small footprint yes... but so do i. doesnt change the fact that im wider than my feet, and therefore i take up more space than they do. wire rope barriers distort when hit, and becomes a lot wider than its footprint. studies show they need at minimum 6 meter allowance for that distortion.

yes... concrete is expensive to install. say, you pay $100 for a 200meter stretch of concrete that will last 10 years, taking multiple hits from all manner of vehicles. you pay, what? $25 for the same length of barrier that will last maybe 10 months, and cost the same for every single collision due to posts needing to be replaced and wires re tensioned. whats more costly over a 10 year period?

you say concrete is not good for dissipating kinetic energy... how then do professional motorbike racers manage to walk away after striking one at upwards of 200k? id hate to the carnage of a pro racer hitting a barrier at the same speed, on the same track.

while i was riding down south, i rode upon a cheese cutter being erected on the edge of lake whataroa.
in the chance of an accident, the options were: aim like heck for the cliff on the opposing lanes that was also a blind corner, and hope like a hell a truck didnt come along, or aim for the lake and pray to god you some how avoided the ropes and posts and went for a swim.
personally, i would much rather lose my bike to the water and walk away drenched, than lose my limbs or life to a barrier.
there is no reason for that wire barrier to be where it is. the lake was shallow on the edge, and only if a car ended quite a ways out would it be in any major trouble.

as far as your listing fences, ditches and wandering animals as more dangerous... bollocks. ditches are generally forgiving and most would walk away virtually unscathed. fences are usually a little ways away from the road, and the grass verge serves to scrub off speed as well. wandering animals? well, they tend to move out of the way, or can be avoided.

as for using the percentage of motorcyclists vs cars, that doesnt prove jack. we pay more for acc in our registration than car drivers, because we [I]are more at risk. that doesnt mean we can be brushed off as being less worthy of listening to and protecting from things that can be changed.
we are NOT second class citizens. id say 99% of the members here work and pay taxes every day, many have children and more are a part of a family, with parents and siblings. why are we not worthy of protecting from killer barriers.

they say the higher the speed, the bigger the mess. well, no matter what speed you hit a cheesecutter at, theres going to be a hell of a mess to clean up. 70k will pretty well ensure you walk away with an amputated limb. anything above that basically guarantees a fatality.

Nikolai_V
24th January 2008, 12:35
[QUOTE=Ixion;1395160]Those are , perhaps, valid points in the abstract (though all, of them resolve down to "we use WRB cos it's cheap"). But I'm not worried about being cut in half in the abstract. Its's being cut in half in the personal I'm worried about.

The essence of your argument is that it is acceptable to knowingly kill motorcyclists, if a greater number of cagers will not be killed. And killing motorcyclists is cheaper than implementing systems that kill neither motorcyclists nor cagers.

I am a motorcyclist. I am opposed to things designed to kill me (and that is precisely what WRBs are designed to do, you couldn't design a better killing device if you tried). I don't give a stuff how many cagers they save. Motorcyclists' lives are not a negotiable currency.

QUOTE]

But car drivers are? the value of a life is identical when it comes to justifying safety treatments. I am also a motorcyclist. I also dislike things that hurt me. I am also a car / truck driver at times. At the end of the day society (that is everyone, not just motorcyclists or car drivers but the whole shooting match) benefits by the barriers.

I`ll make a provocative statement. The big problem with barriers is that it gives motorcyclists something to blame for our appalling safety record... rather than ourselves. Yes any deaths are bad , we`re adults, we go out the door knowing we could not walk back in. Even better we`re motorcyclists - so more likely to die in the first place. better to blame the barriers that we hit after something goes wrong (which is never our fault) than our piss poor riding or changing road conditions.

Remember you need to have lost control or be sliding down the road for these things to be a problem. I cant really comment on the north island experience with them as down here is different (and it varies from region to region).

Bottom line. The barriers actually save lives - I dont hold any particular groups life in higher regard than anyone elses (excepth my own).

New installations of WRB will be checked to see that they are the most appropriate treatment, but remember for the greater good? if the choice is no barrier, endangering the 99.6% of road users who arent motorcyclists or installing one, most engineers would run that risk. I would. Even better i`d ride the damn road, and you know what, i`d accept it, as part of the risk of riding a motorcycle. A bit of personal responsibilty goes a long way.

Ixion
24th January 2008, 12:41
That *might* be valid *if* "most appropriate" did not really mean "cheapest". By your own statements.

(I realise they're not actually cheaper in the long run - but they are initially, which is all Transit look at).

I guess that you're going to have a hard time getting traction on a motorcycle forum for a message that says "we can save cagers lives by killing a few motorcyclists, AND save money. Sucks to be a motorcyclist"



At the end of the day society (that is everyone, not just motorcyclists or car drivers but the whole shooting match) benefits by the barriers.


Obviously, that is ONLY true if you are arguing that motorcyclists are not a part of society. There is no way on earth that any sane person can claim that WRBs benefit motorcyclists.

Even you are reduced to arguing that , yes, it is a lethal hazard , but so what, just ride to avoid it. Hard to see the benefit there.

sunhuntin
24th January 2008, 12:42
as mstrs said in another post... whatevers good for motorbikes, is even better for car drivers.

personal responsibility goes far, yes, but there are things that personal responsibility cannot prevent. such as: the diesel or loose unmarked gravel on a corner or being rear ended by a car driver who hasnt watched their following distance.
what do you suggest we do there? blame ourselves for the truckie that spilled diesel and gravel, and blame our selves for inattentive cager?

if the value of life is identical, then why is it ok to install barriers that say clearly bikers arent worth shit? that my life is worth less than that inattentive cage drivers?

swbarnett
24th January 2008, 12:44
Welcome aboard. It's good to see someone from the industry join the fray.

There are, however a couple of points you make I believe to be factually incorrect:


Unfortunatly, brifen has a very small footprint, and is suitable for situations where barriers were needed (for safety reasons) but could`nt be installed using traditional barriers.
I'm no engineer but I take issue with the assertion that concrete takes more space than WRBs. According to the manufacturers instructions a buffer of 3m on either side is required to account for the distortion of the WRB when hit. As far as I am aware there is no such requirement for concrete. Concrete takes LESS room than WRBs.


Just a thought, how many of you would fly domestically, if you knew that two 737`s would crash each year killing all aboard?? - same as the road toll.
Sorry, but this is not the same as the road toll. It may be the same number of deaths but an absolute death figure is meaningless when taken out of the context of population size. If the US had our road toll they'd be away laughing. Considering the number of kms done every year in NZ I don't believe that our road toll is anything to be worried about anyway. Especially when you consider the social cost of reducing it.

MSTRS
24th January 2008, 12:49
A bit of personal responsibilty goes a long way.

And so does social responsibility. A barrier (or any safety system) that saves lives is generally to be commended. But one that has the potential to take lives should be rejected immediately.
Nikolai_V = Russian Roulette?? Play it with your own life, by all means, but not with the lives of those who have no choice.

swbarnett
24th January 2008, 13:09
Bottom line. The barriers actually save lives - I dont hold any particular groups life in higher regard than anyone elses (excepth my own).
Sorry, but you hold motorcyclist's lives in lower regard by not using an appropriate barrier for all motorists.


New installations of WRB will be checked to see that they are the most appropriate treatment, but remember for the greater good? if the choice is no barrier, endangering the 99.6% of road users who arent motorcyclists or installing one, most engineers would run that risk.
Pity road engineers don't swear by the hippocratic oath - "First do NO harm".

Nikolai_V
24th January 2008, 13:13
Welcome aboard. It's good to see someone from the industry join the fray.

There are, however a couple of points you make I believe to be factually incorrect:


I'm no engineer but I take issue with the assertion that concrete takes more space than WRBs. According to the manufacturers instructions a buffer of 3m on either side is required to account for the distortion of the WRB when hit. As far as I am aware there is no such requirement for concrete. Concrete takes LESS room than WRBs.

Okay, here goes. WRB, say a CSP Pacific Armour wire at Test Level 3 (2000kg vehicle @ 25 degrees, 100kph) will deflect the wire 1.7m at 2m post spacing. Posts can be spaced closer together than this depending on application. State Highway lane widths are 3.5m plus a shoulder, a motorbike is how wide? most cars around about 2m wide also - plenty of room, also fatcor in the reduced impact speed due to deceleration because of the barrier (which concrete and armco do not achieve - they are re-directive only).

Again I make a point which doesnt matter to motorcyclists but is very important to teh majority of road users (i.e. cars,trucks) Concrete barriers are rigid. They do not dissipate energy, as they are in effect a concrete wall to be struck. if struck at an acute angle they are very damaging to vehicle occupants (as well as motorcyclists).

Internationally, its not the wire which is the issue, its the posts which do the damage.


Sorry, but this is not the same as the road toll. It may be the same number of deaths but an absolute death figure is meaningless when taken out of the context of population size. If the US had our road toll they'd be away laughing. Considering the number of kms done every year in NZ I don't believe that our road toll is anything to be worried about anyway. Especially when you consider the social cost of reducing it.

How is it different. both are transport modes - both scenarios around about the 400 dead per annum mark.

well if "our road toll is nothing to be worried about" whats, say worst case scenario another 2 or 3 dead motorcyclists then? christ, and you lot think engineers are callous.

Stuff thesocial cost of reducing it, how about the very real cost to society of all these dead citizens.

Any barrier is a hazard - it just depends on the circumstances. Anything in the road corriror hit at speed is a BAD THING, be it your nice cuddly concrete barriers (which roll cars on their roofs, bounce errant cars back into live lanes to cause more chaos, and still kill motorcyclists), armco (with nice posts to maim and lacerate sliding motorcyclists and barrier terminals which will kill you on impact (if on a bike), which trucks can punch through on occasion) or WRB which will give you a nasty fright as it shreds you on teh closely spaced posts). Shit with all this the road is a scary places - but get this, how about 2t blocks of metal at speeds of up to 120km/h, moving erraticly along the road in your way???

How do we cope??? not to mention fences (which someone dismissed before - those stats were for hospitalisations so someone is obviously getting hurt), pedestrians, cyclists, power poles, trucks, effluent from trucks, diesel, rain, darkness etc....

answers to the usual address....

Nikolai_V
24th January 2008, 13:20
Sorry, but you hold motorcyclist's lives in lower regard by not using an appropriate barrier for all motorists.

Crap, as i`ve said, a number is anumber. Save four lives by killing one, unfortunate but still a win. people insist on killing themselves on the road, all we can do is try and stop them

Pity road engineers don't swear by the hippocratic oath - "First do NO harm".

Easy mate, we`ll just take all the vehicles off - no harm then. Ha, or even better ban bikes, because they`re so dangerous (tongue in cheek)
While humans are on the network, accidents /crashes will occur.

most benefit to the most people most of the time. even doctors work on that theory. from what i`ve read the majority of people on here (and i mean no offense by my sweeping generalisation) routinely disregard traffic regulations because they`re (above teh law/ great riders / special because their mums said so. So teh mesures that would be nessecary to achieve that would be pretty unpalatable to you (just a hunch)

and we can do it now but society isnt ready for it. Intelligent cruise controls, gps tracking of speed and automated driver systems exist.

If we persist in killing ourselves in large numbers eventually they`ll be slapped on us by the moral majority - i dont want that to happen. I`ll take my freedom, even if that has to include the freedom to risk the unforgiving road environment.

MSTRS
24th January 2008, 13:53
Concrete barriers are rigid. They do not dissipate energy, as they are in effect a concrete wall to be struck. if struck at an acute angle they are very damaging to vehicle occupants (as well as motorcyclists).



"Acute" means sharp, does it not? You mean at 'obtuse' (closer to 90degrees).
You conveniently forget about all the built-in features in today's cars...crumple zones, airbags (not all cars, sure, but getting there), seatbelts. We don't have all those luxuries.
Rare would be the case when any vehicle hits any barrier at close to square-on, except perhaps those on the outside of right-hand bends. But surely you have seen the Falcon result ??? Car drivers shudder when they see that and they suddenly understand our abhorrence of the cheesecutters, which are designed to be 'most effective?" when struck a glancing blow. And you also claim that trucks are stopped...oh, yeah? Think again.
We also are well aware that any barrier (or obstacle) can and will hurt, and we will do whatever we can to avoid hitting such a thing.
But making it almost impossible to avoid, coupled with an almost-guarantee of death, is not acceptable to us.

swbarnett
24th January 2008, 15:06
This is good. Someone with some technical knowledge to debate with.


Okay, here goes. WRB, say a CSP Pacific Armour wire at Test Level 3 (2000kg vehicle @ 25 degrees, 100kph) will deflect the wire 1.7m at 2m post spacing.
What happens when the posts are ripped from the ground?


How is it different. both are transport modes - both scenarios around about the 400 dead per annum mark.
400 per annum yes, but how many per vehicle or per km travelled?


well if "our road toll is nothing to be worried about" whats, say worst case scenario another 2 or 3 dead motorcyclists then? christ, and you lot think engineers are callous.
I'll paraphrase what I've said elsewhere (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=63658) - our road toll is damn near or below the minimum that can be expected from a fallible human population when the number of vehicles and kms travelled is taken into account.


Stuff thesocial cost of reducing it, how about the very real cost to society of all these dead citizens.
By "Social Cost" I'm talking about the eventual removal of all freedoms in pursuit of an unrealistic goal. I'd rather spend one day free than a lifetime as a slave.


Any barrier is a hazard
Agreed, but some are more of a hazard than others.

swbarnett
24th January 2008, 15:28
I know you're new to this forum but please be careful how you quote. I don't appreciate being misquoted. Use the "Preview Post" button to check the result before submittig the reply.


Crap, as i`ve said, a number is anumber. Save four lives by killing one, unfortunate but still a win.
This is never a win. This is just another way of saying that the end justifies the means.


Easy mate, we`ll just take all the vehicles off - no harm then. Ha, or even better ban bikes, because they`re so dangerous (tongue in cheek)
While humans are on the network, accidents /crashes will occur.
Bang on. This is the crux of my contention that the road toll isn't as bad as it's made out to be. At the same time we shouldn't be trying to make the road more dangerous than it already is.


most benefit to the most people most of the time.
This is called prejudice. It's been used as an excuse to squash minorities for millennia. Motorcyclists are such a minority. What would happen if these barriers killed say Maori people more than Europeans. I don't think they'd last long.


even doctors work on that theory.
They don't knowingly kill anybody for the sake of one treatment being cheaper than another. They help those they can and go mad from stress over those they can't (from what I hear, I have no direct experience of this).


If we persist in killing ourselves in large numbers eventually they`ll be slapped on us by the moral majority - i dont want that to happen. I`ll take my freedom, even if that has to include the freedom to risk the unforgiving road environment.
The problem here is the relative nature of the term "large numbers". The numbers aren't that big. The only way to stop the moral majority is to convince them that things aren't as bad as they think they are. The extreme of society will always be seen as hoons no matter how safe they really are.

Ixion
24th January 2008, 16:42
Okay, here goes. WRB, say a CSP Pacific Armour wire at Test Level 3 (2000kg vehicle @ 25 degrees, 100kph) will deflect the wire 1.7m at 2m post spacing. Posts can be spaced closer together than this depending on application. State Highway lane widths are 3.5m plus a shoulder, a motorbike is how wide? most cars around about 2m wide also - plenty of room, also fatcor in the reduced impact speed due to deceleration because of the barrier (which concrete and armco do not achieve - they are re-directive only).

,,,

How the devil do you figure 'plenty of room' on those figures? By your own numbers , even if a car was hugging the extreme left of the lane (shoulder is irrelevant, it's several lanes over), it's still going to hit (1.7 + 2 > 3.5). In reality, the car won't be on the extreme left , and the driver, seeing the oncoming heading at him will not calmly do such a mathematical exercise. He'll panic and swerve left and collide with the traffic in that lane.

And even if the cheescutter slows down the on coming , the other vehicle is still going to T bone it at 100kph !

Nor do any of your arguments serve to justify the left hand cheescutters, protecting the scrubby fields.

WelshWizard
24th January 2008, 16:52
Hi, i`m new here, (post No.2) and in teh great NZ tradition i`d like to have my 2c worth on this topic, seeing as its something i both know a bit about, (being a roading engineer) and have an interest in, being a motorcyclist.

Like it or not, engineering is all about a utilitarian good, the best outcome for the greatest number of people. Barriers cost money, concrete barriers cost more than armco, which costs more than brifen. More barriers equal less head on collisions (which incidentally result in casualty accidents in motorcyclists at a rate four times higher than car drivers), which equals less casualties.



Engineers design items by takeing into account all possible flaws, only a porr quality engineer fails to take into account all possible flaws in the system they design, thats why many countries are makeing these WRB illegal, and removing them because the design was found to be flawed.

Gixxer 4 ever
24th January 2008, 17:33
Welcome aboard Nikolai_V Nice to have your input.

As I read all the teck stuff here I realise you are all way smarter than me. I can understand what you say but I only see it from a basic level.
If you have read my input here you will realise I am a reactive emotive person that finds it hard to put in to written word what I am thinking. So here we go in short.

I would rather have less road barriers if it means the ones that are installed are going to be safer for all road users.

Tell me this. Is it ok to kill one person to save another? The difference being one rides a motorbike and one drives a car. Or is it better to install life saving barriers for all but fewer of them?

I have dropped a bike in years gone by and it was my fault. Should I face the death penalty for making a mistake? The guy that shot my father only got life (10) years, but you want me to die?

I just don't get it ...................

sunhuntin
24th January 2008, 18:41
Welcome aboard Nikolai_V Nice to have your input.

As I read all the teck stuff here I realise you are all way smarter than me. I can understand what you say but I only see it from a basic level.
If you have read my input here you will realise I am a reactive emotive person that finds it hard to put in to written word what I am thinking. So here we go in short.

I would rather have less road barriers if it means the ones that are installed are going to be safer for all road users.

Tell me this. Is it ok to kill one person to save another? The difference being one rides a motorbike and one drives a car. Or is it better to install life saving barriers for all but fewer of them?

I have dropped a bike in years gone by and it was my fault. Should I face the death penalty for making a mistake? The guy that shot my father only got life (10) years, but you want me to die?

I just don't get it ...................

sounds like saving private ryan to me... risk x amount of lives for one.

and as for nikoli's comment about concrete being dangerous even for bikers, i repeat my comment about pro racers hitting them at upwards of 200k and walking away. how do they do this if concrete is bad for bikers?