Understanding cornering on a bike.

[2wheeldrifter]

Thought this may help explain cornering on a bike for newb's.

Most riders say cornering is the one aspect of motorcycling that is different than driving a car. This is at the core of what differentiates motorcyclists from four-wheeled motorists. Going around a curve on a motorcycle is unique. As a single-track vehicle, it turns by leaning. A skilled rider on a late model sportbike might tell you that riding through curves on a twisty road is more like banking an airplane than driving a car. It can be great fun and is one of the attractions of motorcycling.

What makes a motorcycle turn?
Newton’s first law of motion states that a body in motion continues to move at a constant speed along a straight line unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. The laws of physics apply to motorcycling and affect cornering. Gyroscopic precession from the spinning wheels keeps the axles of the motorcycle wheels pointing in the same direction.

A motorcycle can be thought of as two gyroscopes rotating in the same direction, providing the stability that keeps it upright and moving straight. To turn a motorcycle you need an offsetting force on the handlebars to counter the stabilizing gyroscopic effect. Beginning motorcyclists first learn to do this by pressing on the handlebar in the direction they want to go, or “countersteering.” Initially, this may seem contradictory, but it’s easily learned. New riders are taught to ride straight ahead and then press forward, or down, on the handgrip in the direction of the turn (press left to go left).

One of the biggest fears of the new motorcyclist is that the motorcycle will fall over if leaned too far. This fear is natural but is overcome by learning to press to lean the motorcycle and then pressing back in the opposite direction to straighten. Centrifugal force and gyroscopic effect keep the motorcycle from falling down. As centrifugal force pushes the motorcycle outward, riders must compensate by leaning their bike into the turn. The amount of lean angle determines the tightness of the turn for a given speed. The capabilities of the rider and the motorcycle combine to determine the limit of cornering performance.

Cornering judgment and technique
One of the most difficult skills to acquire is that of cornering judgment. A proficient rider will learn to look ahead and anticipate the road, read the radius of the curve, if and how much it is banked and how far ahead they can see. They should develop a strategy to maximize sight lines to be able to see as far ahead as possible.

The four basic steps to cornering are slow, look, press and roll. When approaching a curve, the rider should slow to a proper entry speed. What is the proper entry speed? It is not a number and may be different for each rider depending on their skill level, motorcycle capability and road conditions. On the street, a proper entry speed should be the speed at which they can maintain or increase speed through the corner. This is the step that many riders get wrong – they go too hot into a corner and then panic. It is better to go in too slow than too fast! Beginning the corner slowly and maintaining or increasing throttle through the turn will stabilize the motorcycle and build confidence for the new rider.

Look where you want to go
Try to look as far ahead possible. The physical act of turning one’s head cannot be stressed enough. Turn your head and hold it turned, trying to focus on the exit point. Seasoned riders will even look further ahead to the next corner to set up for its entrance. You are more likely to go where you’re looking (but you must still turn the motorcycle). Press on the handgrip to lean the motorcycle. Depending on the motorcycle, it might be necessary to hold that press through the turn or just hold light pressure. Apply more pressure to lean the motorcycle further if the turn tightens. Roll on the throttle slightly to stabilize the motorcycle chassis and maintain or increase speed through the turn.

The standard method of approaching corners is to start on the outside and then move to the inside of the turn at its middle or apex. From that point to the corner’s exit, the rider can drift outward again, effectively straightening the corner. This is the so-called race line and is the shortest way through a curve. When visibility is good and you can see all the way to the exit point, this is the best way around a curve. When obstructions exist, this method may not be optimal.

One technique that experienced riders use to maximize their sightlines is called delayed apex. This means the rider remains on the outside part of the curve through the corner until they can see the exit point. By staying outside, they can get a better view of the road ahead and this provides additional time and space to react to potential hazards.
Maximum lean angle
A motorcycle does have limits and can fall down even at speed if these limits are exceeded. Cornering clearance and tire traction are two such limiting factors. Proper cornering techniques are important and should be practiced regularly.

Riders should learn and master the basics first. Learning proper countersteering to press to initiate lean is the foundation upon which all higher speed cornering is built. Once proficient at basic turning, riders should determine the maximum lean angle that is allowed by their specific motorcycle. If you are constantly touching down your footpegs or floorboards, then your motorcycle has cornering clearance limitations. If you’ve never touched a footpeg to the ground, you might be surprised to learn that there is much more lean angle available for you to use in both routine and emergency maneuvers.

Single vehicle crashes happen more often because of a lack of sufficient lean angle. This is normally caused by the wrong rider reaction to a changing situation such as the tightening of a curve. In most street situations, there normally is more room to lean the motorcycle than the rider realizes. The rider instead may brake in the curve or drift off the road, either of which could cause a crash.

Practice, practice, practice
Regular cornering practice will help you develop the skills you need, help prevent panic in cornering situations and allow you to react properly in an emergency. Once you are proficient you’ll look forward to those twisty roads and tight turns.
Cornering can be both fun and safe if done correctly.

[Cr1MiNaL]

What makes a motorcycle turn?
Newton’s first law of motion states that a body in motion continues to move at a constant speed along a straight line unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.

Newton’s first law of motion states that a body in motion continues to move at a constant speed along a straight line unless acted upon by an 'external' unbalanced force...

[90s]

Unless your name is George Tranos, you might like to link to the source:
http://www.womenridersnow.com/PublicFiles/DepartmentViewer.asp?ArticleID=537

Nice find though - very clear.

[2fst4u]

i still dont quite get this whole counter steering thing. i understand that to lean the bike you push left, go left etc. But when you're actually in the turn, do you push right to go left? surley you dont counter steer the whole turn. and then when you exit, what do you do?

[Grahameeboy]

i still dont quite get this whole counter steering thing. i understand that to lean the bike you push left, go left etc. But when you're actually in the turn, do you push right to go left? surley you dont counter steer the whole turn. and then when you exit, what do you do?

Well yes you have to maintain counter steering thru a turn. As you come out of a turn you reduce counter steering to stand up. In a left turn you can also pull on the tight bar which I find helps to settle things.

[MSTRS]

Apply the initial 'nudge' and the bike will more or less follow that, until you increase the pressure or reverse it....

[2fst4u]

cool cheers guys

[007XX]

Most interesting...very good post, bling sent.

Not sure about that delayed apex though...

And one thing while I'm on the subject: I find that my right hand cornering is always way tighter than my left and I constantly have to adjust while cornering.

Can anyone suggest why that might be? It's a real pain...

[kevfromcoro]

Yes i go around left corners no sweat.but the rights get me a bit off balance
Had a mate who was left handed..and he had the opposite problem
not sure
and old biker told me..when going into a right hander..
pull on yer left bar.
have to try it
KEV

[90s]

Not sure about that delayed apex though...


You might like to search for late apexing.

It is MUCH safer in the real world, and in the hands of a track expert in many cases faster (harder braking - then harder on the power). Some track records are held by "late apex" style riders.

Many times on the wiggly roads I find a car parked / someone over my centreline or something where they shouldn't around a corner that raceline riding would have plowed me into, but late apexing let me see in time.

[riffer]

Most interesting...very good post, bling sent.

Not sure about that delayed apex though...

And one thing while I'm on the subject: I find that my right hand cornering is always way tighter than my left and I constantly have to adjust while cornering.

Can anyone suggest why that might be? It's a real pain...

Most people have a variance in how they corner V. It's mainly in the mind.

I suggest you get your hands on Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist or Twist of the Wrist II. He discusses this much better than I ever could.

[HenryDorsetCase]

i still dont quite get this whole counter steering thing. i understand that to lean the bike you push left, go left etc. But when you're actually in the turn, do you push right to go left? surley you dont counter steer the whole turn. and then when you exit, what do you do?


dont over analyse! if you can ride a pushbike you know how to do what you need to, without having to stress too much about this stuff. the keys to mid corner and exit are positive throttle (a little or a lot) and looking where you want to go.

[HenryDorsetCase]

the thing with the late apex approach is you have to be really good on the brakes because you are trail braking to the apex (easy to tuck the front) and you have to really bang the thing into the turn, so your counter steer and throttle on has to be really good. You need very good skills is my point. When it works its fantastic, plus you will get a knee down. Just dont follow it with the rest of your body and your bike.

[Ocean1]

I find that my right hand cornering is always way tighter than my left and I constantly have to adjust while cornering.

Can anyone suggest why that might be? It's a real pain...

I wonder if it's learned behaviour from your distant dirty past dear. There's a bit of difference in how most people turn each way on a dirt bike, not just because people are R or L handed but because you often use the back brake late going in. Your whole body position is different in a right hander because your leg stays put longer to brake.


You might like to search for late apexing.

It is MUCH safer in the real world, and in the hands of a track expert in many cases faster (harder braking - then harder on the power). Some track records are held by "late apex" style riders.

Many times on the wiggly roads I find a car parked / someone over my centreline or something where they shouldn't around a corner that raceline riding would have plowed me into, but late apexing let me see in time.

Do you find such a tactic ideally uses similar lines both ways? Or does the risk of roadside rubble deeper into a left hander change it?

[TerminalAddict]

Well yes you have to maintain counter steering thru a turn. As you come out of a turn you reduce counter steering to stand up. In a left turn you can also pull on the tight bar which I find helps to settle things.


mmmm that's not what Keith code says.
counter steering is the external unbalanced force that causes the bike to lean over ... the steering head is what causes the bike to go thru an arc, and counter steering to stand the bike back up again/

you should only be counter steering in a curve if you need to adjust your lean angle

[The Stranger]

Most interesting...very good post, bling sent.

Not sure about that delayed apex though...

And one thing while I'm on the subject: I find that my right hand cornering is always way tighter than my left and I constantly have to adjust while cornering.

Can anyone suggest why that might be? It's a real pain...

Both issues are covered at RRRS (http://www.rrrs.org.nz).

[The Stranger]

the thing with the late apex approach is you have to be really good on the brakes because you are trail braking to the apex (easy to tuck the front) and you have to really bang the thing into the turn, so your counter steer and throttle on has to be really good. You need very good skills is my point. When it works its fantastic, plus you will get a knee down. Just dont follow it with the rest of your body and your bike.

Say what?
You can if you desire use a late apex at a snails pace and there is no need to be a demon braker, trail brake, bang the thing in, have exceptional throttle control or get a knee down.

[fergie]

good info, thanks

[007XX]

You might like to search for late apexing.

It is MUCH safer in the real world, and in the hands of a track expert in many cases faster (harder braking - then harder on the power). Some track records are held by "late apex" style riders.

Many times on the wiggly roads I find a car parked / someone over my centreline or something where they shouldn't around a corner that raceline riding would have plowed me into, but late apexing let me see in time.

Will do thanks. And yes, it is a good point: my habit of being close to the center line may be good in a racing environment, but on the road, it could become a problem, and I'm aware of that, so I'd like to fix it.:pinch:



Most people have a variance in how they corner V. It's mainly in the mind.

I suggest you get your hands on Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist or Twist of the Wrist II. He discusses this much better than I ever could.

Cheers, will do. I had heard of htis book, but wasn't sure if it was worth reading. I'll get it now based on your expert recommendation. :niceone:


I wonder if it's learned behaviour from your distant dirty past dear. There's a bit of difference in how most people turn each way on a dirt bike, not just because people are R or L handed but because you often use the back brake late going in. Your whole body position is different in a right hander because your leg stays put longer to brake.



Do you find such a tactic ideally uses similar lines both ways? Or does the risk of roadside rubble deeper into a left hander change it?

:shit: My dirty whaaaaat?!? *have you been talking to my mother? :eek5: :laugh:

More seriously...that is a very good point, thanks. I never thought of it that way. I do use the back brake late going in, and never really thought too much about how it affects my body position. I am doing it less lately
though, as I am using the Vtwin engine braking a lot more.


Both issues are covered at RRRS (http://www.rrrs.org.nz).

Thanks.

[Disco Dan]

Unless your name is George Tranos, you might like to link to the source:
http://www.womenridersnow.com/PublicFiles/DepartmentViewer.asp?ArticleID=537

Nice find though - very clear.

Very good point, for a minute I thought he had just sat and typed it all !

"Women riding now" Interesting site to be reading dude!

[Badjelly]

counter steering is the external unbalanced force that causes the bike to lean over ... the steering head is what causes the bike to go thru an arc, and counter steering to stand the bike back up again/

you should only be counter steering in a curve if you need to adjust your lean angle

This is basically correct, I think, but it does depend on the bike and its setup (particularly tyre profile and pressure) and how much power you apply. Some bikes, once turned in, will track neutrally without further input, some have to be "held down", some have to be "held up". To illustrate, try letting half the air out of your tyres, ride into a corner and then, once you're in the corner, take your hands off the bars.

As somebody else said, countersteering isn't that big a deal, it's something many (most) people do without thinking or knowing. However I think that analysing what you're doing and trying different approaches will make you a better rider.

[MSTRS]

Will do thanks. And yes, it is a good point: my habit of being close to the center line may be good in a racing environment, but on the road, it could become a problem, and I'm aware of that, so I'd like to fix it.:pinch:

You talking about right-handers here? Wheels on your side of the line, but head in the airspace of the opposing lane? Common error and one which I had pointed out to me a while back. Have been working on the late apex approach for the last 6 months or so, and I'm getting better (read, automatic) at it. Safer. And faster. You also avoid the 'slingshot' effect of being thrown towards the outside of the lane after the apex point.
Also, regards brakes...even on your little 250, a combination of throttle and gear selection will be much more useful than your brakes in everyday riding (yes, even commuting I dare say). Have a natter/ride with The Stranger and /or do the RRRS course.

[MyGSXF]

i still dont quite get this whole counter steering thing. i understand that to lean the bike you push left, go left etc. But when you're actually in the turn, do you push right to go left? surley you dont counter steer the whole turn. and then when you exit, what do you do?

The BEST thing you could do, would be to contact Andrew & Lynne at Roadsafe.. :niceone:

http://www.roadsafe.co.nz/

They run beginner rider courses, & have bikes you can use to learn to ride on & then get your licence on with them. Below is a link to a thread I put up last year, after doing one of their advanced rider courses.. you would cover some of the same topics if you went through a beginner course too!!

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=804098&postcount=1

Anyone can spend thousands on flash 'bling' for their bike & fancy clothing.. to make it go faster or to look hotter.. but the most beneficial money spent on motorcycling.. is to upskill the RIDER!!! :first:

I cannot recommend Roadsafe highly enough to ANYone!!! JUST DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :banana:

Jen :rockon:

[007XX]

You talking about right-handers here? Wheels on your side of the line, but head in the airspace of the opposing lane? Common error and one which I had pointed out to me a while back. Have been working on the late apex approach for the last 6 months or so, and I'm getting better (read, automatic) at it. Safer. And faster. You also avoid the 'slingshot' effect of being thrown towards the outside of the lane after the apex point.
Also, regards brakes...even on your little 250, a combination of throttle and gear selection will be much more useful than your brakes in everyday riding (yes, even commuting I dare say).

Definitely talking about right handers...:D

I've been working on lining myself up to be able to see the end of the corner and then already be on the "outside" of the next corner, and it is working well for me in the left handers, but I always seem to over do it in the right handers...

The RRRS course sounds like a brilliant idea... in the meantime, I'll read up some more about it and practice, practice, practice...:done:

[2fst4u]

The BEST thing you could do, would be to contact Andrew & Lynne at Roadsafe.. :niceone:

http://www.roadsafe.co.nz/

They run beginner rider courses, & have bikes you can use to learn to ride on & then get your licence on with them. Below is a link to a thread I put up last year, after doing one of their advanced rider courses.. you would cover some of the same topics if you went through a beginner course too!!

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=804098&postcount=1

Anyone can spend thousands on flash 'bling' for their bike & fancy clothing.. to make it go faster or to look hotter.. but the most beneficial money spent on motorcycling.. is to upskill the RIDER!!! :first:

I cannot recommend Roadsafe highly enough to ANYone!!! JUST DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :banana:

Jen :rockon:

sounds good. i'll go check it out once exams are over. parents dont want to hear another word about motorcycles till i pass them:msn-wink: but definatly sounds like a plan

[discotex]

the thing with the late apex approach is you have to be really good on the brakes because you are trail braking to the apex (easy to tuck the front) and you have to really bang the thing into the turn, so your counter steer and throttle on has to be really good. You need very good skills is my point. When it works its fantastic, plus you will get a knee down. Just dont follow it with the rest of your body and your bike.

Maybe on the track when going for short lap times but that's not the case on the road. You don't have to trail brake nor do you need to get a knee down to apex late.

You're probably right that it requires more skill and confidence but that's why it's so great. By slowly moving your turn in point later and later you build up the confidence in your bike and your steering ability. How far you have to lean is totally determined by entry speed so starting slower is always an option.

The biggest benefit I see is it makes decreasing radius corners much easier to deal with. No longer do they put the shits up me. Much better cornering visibility too which helps you keep the speed up.

Keith Code covers cornering pretty well and the book is cheap as at $31 from fishpond.co.nz. It improved my road riding no end.

http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Books/Sports_Recreation/Motor_Sports/product_info/1327959

[ManDownUnder]

i still dont quite get this whole counter steering thing. i understand that to lean the bike you push left, go left etc. But when you're actually in the turn, do you push right to go left? surley you dont counter steer the whole turn. and then when you exit, what do you do?

Yes - try it.

riding along in 2nd, bike into neutral, REMOVE your righ hand from the bars and simply... gently press the left hand bar. The bike will start to lean to the left, pressing harder will deepen the turn, reducing pressure will straighten it. If you want to straighten faster then pulling on the right handle bar (with your right hand being re-engaged) will do it more quickly,

[Ocean1]

Yes - try it.

riding along in 2nd, bike into neutral, REMOVE your righ hand from the bars and simply... gently press the left hand bar. The bike will start to lean to the left, pressing harder will deepen the turn, reducing pressure will straighten it. If you want to straighten faster then pulling on the right handle bar (with your right hand being re-engaged) will do it more quickly,


??????????

[2wheeldrifter]

Very good point, for a minute I thought he had just sat and typed it all !

"Women riding now" Interesting site to be reading dude!


Typed it.....get real dude.... maybe these woman riders do know a thing or two.... I was lookin for tit's on bikes pic's!..

but hey people a learning something at the end of the day aye, so can't be all bad.:niceone:

[mowgli]

Another book worth reading is "The Police Rider's Handbook to Better Motorcycling" published by TSO, London. It's course reading for the London Metro police riders. In addition to actual riding it includes sections on profiling other motorists and yourself to identify the things you might be doing inadvertently that increase your chances of being in a smash.

While this is essentially teaching cops how to ride safely at speeds above the legal limit the principles apply just the same at sensible speeds. A great read if you can get you hands on a copy.

[DEATH_INC.]

Not sure about that delayed apex though...
On the road, you should always do this. If you are having trouble doing it with braking distances etc, slow down. Late apexing gives a clear view of where ya going before you get there, it's by far the safest road cornering method out there. You don't rocket in and then try to square off the corner, basically stay wide until you can see the corner exit before you drop in....

[Mental Trousers]

This is basically correct, I think, but it does depend on the bike and its setup (particularly tyre profile and pressure) and how much power you apply. Some bikes, once turned in, will track neutrally without further input, some have to be "held down", some have to be "held up". To illustrate, try letting half the air out of your tyres, ride into a corner and then, once you're in the corner, take your hands off the bars.

As somebody else said, countersteering isn't that big a deal, it's something many (most) people do without thinking or knowing. However I think that analysing what you're doing and trying different approaches will make you a better rider.


mmmm that's not what Keith code says.
counter steering is the external unbalanced force that causes the bike to lean over ... the steering head is what causes the bike to go thru an arc, and counter steering to stand the bike back up again/

you should only be counter steering in a curve if you need to adjust your lean angle

Close.

Ideally, you'd counter steer at the turn in point of a corner and after that, you'd do as little as possible (the less you do the more grip is available - see Keith Code's analogy with the money)

The rake, trail and (to a lesser extent) wheelbase dictate how tight a corner a bike can take at a given speed. The steeper the rake and the smaller the trail and wheelbase, the tighter the corner a bike can get around without more steering input (ie counter steering or other).

Road bikes are full on compromises when it comes to geometry because of the nature of roads - there's a huge variety of conditions that the bike has to deal with. Race bikes are much more narrowly focused so they often end up with very steep rake and small amounts of trail. This has the effect that the bike can take a corner faster without having to lean on the inside bar to make it hold it's line.

Counter steering all the way through a corner isn't ideal.

As for late apexing, it's the safest line you can take on the road because it gives you the best field of vision around the corner. Riding safely is all about maximizing time and space - the more time and space you have at your disposal the safer you are.

[discotex]

Close.

Ideally, you'd counter steer at the turn in point of a corner and after that, you'd do as little as possible (the less you do the more grip is available - see Keith Code's analogy with the money)

+1

Once you've countersteered the bike over the only inputs required should be minimal. Moving your weight in or out or weighting a peg etc.



As for late apexing, it's the safest line you can take on the road because it gives you the best field of vision around the corner. Riding safely is all about maximizing time and space - the more time and space you have at your disposal the safer you are.

Absolutely. It also has the effect of minimising the time you are in the spot where a car or bike coming the other way will overshoot into your lane.

And, for the time that you are in that danger zone you are mostly upright and have room to manoeuvre or brake hard.

And, if that corner turns out to be a decreasing radius corner you won't be running wide as you'll have lean angle in reserve.

And, it sets you up nicely if the next corner goes the other way.

I still can't think of a single reason against late apexing either.

[Hoon]

I've read pretty much everything there is to read on the subject but I still struggle to apply it.
One area of my cornering I've been working on is the "quick flick turn in" which is related to late apexing as the quicker you can change direction the later you can turn in.
The problem with late apexing is it doesn't leave much room for error if you are going too fast. The only real option you have is to lean it over further.

Anyway the point I wanted to make is yep you counter steer the bike to lean it over. You can be pretty violent with the handle bars - examples are Puke turn 1-2 (right to left into castrol) and Turn 8-9? (left to right coming over the hill) which pretty much take all my strength.

High speed the bike will lean over then maintain its lean angle (or even slowly stand up) once you stop applying pressure but at lower speeds (say < 100kph at slow turns, hairpins etc) once you get past a certain lean angle (say 45 degrees, depending on your tyre profiles), the bike will continue to keep falling into the lean if you release pressure. Counter steering the opposite direction is one option but another is to catch it with the throttle and crack on the gas. This stops it falling and also accelerates you out of the turn but the more powerful the bike the smoother you need to be.

So in these slow-mid speed turns I actually like to turn in as fast as I can, then complete my lean action not with releasing handle pressure or counter steering the opposite direction, but by applying throttle.

This means that if I do misjudge my late apex turn, I have still maximised my chances of making the turn by turning in as quickly as possible. The only change I need to make is to allow the bike to lean further by cracking on the gas as the later point. This happens naturally during an "ohh shit!!" moment and that slight hesitation is actually exactly what is needed in this situation.

[99TLS]

Yes i go around left corners no sweat.but the rights get me a bit off balance

opposite to me hate downhill lefts ,always have for some reason?

[007XX]

On the road, you should always do this. If you are having trouble doing it with braking distances etc, slow down. Late apexing gives a clear view of where ya going before you get there, it's by far the safest road cornering method out there. You don't rocket in and then try to square off the corner, basically stay wide until you can see the corner exit before you drop in....

Most definitely...I have been consciously forcing myself to do this of late on the road, and I am happy to report it is becoming more and more natural. Also feels way safer.

[yungatart]

opposite to me hate downhill lefts ,always have for some reason?

Survival instinct? If you bin on a downhill left, you will be thrown into the opposing lane (DAMHIK).
Like you, I hate them, nasty little buggers, they is!

[Ocean1]

Counter steering the opposite direction is one option but another is to catch it with the throttle and crack on the gas. This stops it falling and also accelerates you out of the turn but the more powerful the bike the smoother you need to be.

So in these slow-mid speed turns I actually like to turn in as fast as I can, then complete my lean action not with releasing handle pressure or counter steering the opposite direction, but by applying throttle.

This means that if I do misjudge my late apex turn, I have still maximised my chances of making the turn by turning in as quickly as possible. The only change I need to make is to allow the bike to lean further by cracking on the gas as the later point. This happens naturally during an "ohh shit!!" moment and that slight hesitation is actually exactly what is needed in this situation.


I'd struggle to state it so clearly but that makes perfect sense to me. The Buell does like to continue to fall in once turned in, but if I've got the entry speed right I'm on the gas almost imediately after that. That balances the tendency to fall in, and, as you say if it's all a bit hot then delaying the throttle tends to tighten the curve, sort of self-correcting.

Mate Code also makes the point that bikes are designed to stick best under power, so the weight bias is moved backwards from a neutral 50/50 to 40/60. Certainly feels like that's the case, everything feels more stable and stickier when I roll onto the gas right through the turn. I feel I've got a corner "right" when there's zero counter-steering required after the initial turn-in, she just sits up progressively under increasing power right through the turn.

[autos]

this is fascinating, even though ive no idea what you are all talking about late apex, countersteering WTF?? so are the fundamentals all the same for sportsbikes and hogs or is that another can of worms ??

[sinned]

this is fascinating, even though ive no idea what you are all talking about late apex, countersteering WTF?? so are the fundamentals all the same for sportsbikes and hogs or is that another can of worms ??

Fundamentals are "fundamental" to all inline two wheelers including cycles except for the power thing - that is truly special. :yes:

[pritch]

Not sure about that delayed apex though...


Delayed apex has long been advocated for safety reasons:
A) You get a better look
B) A later turn in and apex means you can take a tighter line out thus making it less likely you will end up decorating the grill of a Mack Truck coming the other way.

[discotex]

this is fascinating, even though ive no idea what you are all talking about late apex, countersteering WTF?? so are the fundamentals all the same for sportsbikes and hogs or is that another can of worms ??

Yep for pedal power as well... Just not as noticable.

Quick and concise overview of late apexing (http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3555)

And the best vid that explains countersteering:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxM_GU7W-dE

[autos]

cheers for that, so much easier with pics, im doing late apex corners without knowing it lol

[Iain]

Very entertaining videos. I ended up watching them all

[90s]

And the best vid that explains countersteering:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxM_GU7W-dE

Great! What a good teacher!
Who needs controlled conditions? "I wish I knew where this road went ... oh f..."

Classic

[cbr guy]

Cool article thing, needs a wee edit though, the part about taking lines says to take the shortest path through the corner, when it should be saying the longest path, or whatever, if anybody cares. cheers