Handling V Power - you chose

[codgyoleracer]

Here's one for ya:
Scenario: Two identical bikes, same brand, same tyres, 600cc supersports but No1 bike only has 100hp but has the handling abilty as good as a top world supersport 600 & more brakes than Jill Clendons shoulder.

No2 bike handles like a bucket of bolts, + has shit brakes but has the benefit of a 130hp engine.

On a track like Manfield with an equal amount of straights & corners which one circulates faster with the same semi-skilled rider on board. (you are not allowed to work on either bike & improve it) :wari:

[marioc]

The good handling bike for sure no question

[quallman1234]

Depends on the rider!

If its the same rider both times then the better handling one will get around faster.

[avgas]

Power for me - i compensate for poor handling. always have.
Its a miracle if you get around corners, but once your next to them leaving the corners the final exit they eat your dust.

[White trash]

Do you ever work Glen?

For the record, I'd choose the ill handling power house because at the moment that's what I've got and I enjoy a challenge but what I'd choose isn't the question.

Which is faster? Most people are intelligent enough I think to pick that the good handler will lap faster hands down over the hot rod. In most instances that is.

[deanohit]

Ahhh, but thats where corner speed comes into it Avgas, I would rather go around a corner at 100 then get up to 150 then through the next corner at 100 rather than 75-170-75 because smoothness (usually) wins.

[White trash]

As an example. If you have someone that is an inexperianced or bad enough rider that they simply dribble aroundcorners anyway, they simply wont lean the bike for example, then probably the powerfull bike will allow them to lap faster. It wont encourage them to become a better rider like a good handler will however.

[skelstar]

Is GP125's lapping around the same kinda of time as some F3 bikes a good example?

Thats heresay info, I could be wrong.

[avgas]

Ahhh, but thats where corner speed comes into it Avgas, I would rather go around a corner at 100 then get up to 150 then through the next corner at 100 rather than 75-170-75 because smoothness (usually) wins.
True - but not always the case, i have met a few people that corner fine with the back wheel out/front wheel up, taking the long way around rather than knee into it trying to make the minimum distance. Kill the throttle and drop the hammer does still give your those cornering speeds if your good enough. Its all about how much you risk.

[ArcherWC]

Handling any day, I allways do suspension work on my bikes (dirt or road) before any power modes

[deanohit]

True - but not always the case, i have met a few people that corner fine with the back wheel out/front wheel up, taking the long way around rather than knee into it trying to make the minimum distance. Kill the throttle and drop the hammer does still give your those cornering speeds if your good enough. Its all about how much you risk.

Yep, thats true,:yes: and I see your point, but I was going on the original question though where it says "semi-skilled rider on board", not a pro.

[avgas]

Yep, thats true,:yes: and I see your point, but I was going on the original question though where it says "semi-skilled rider on board", not a pro.
true that. I would probably still go for the hp over handling, as its not too expensive to do suspension these days. And kudos feels more fun than championship points in my mind. 30% increase in hp is a fair wack - cant be cheap to do that to the other motor if you wanted.
Mind you dont take my advice, i do ride the "king rat" - which says alot about me doesnt it.
In saying that i have only ridden 1 bike that actually handled like a supermarket trolley.

[deanohit]

You should try riding my bike some time then, I'd love both more handling and more power!!

[avgas]

You should try riding my bike some time then, I'd love both more handling and more power!!
Every now and then i take little bikes out. I miss them.
But i must ride big to save my life......no shit - i will kill myself on a little one, im way too reckless.

[limbimtimwim]

Shit brakes is a worry. But otherwise if I wanted to win, I'd take the power.

It's much easier to pass on the straight than around the corner.

If I didn't want to win and have fun; take the handling.

Give it more time on the bike though, I think the picture would change, and the talented ones would end up faster on the scalpel instead of the pickaxe.

[riffer]

I must be a n00b. I'd go for the better handling anytime...

[GSVR]

The less power you have the more important it becomes. eg if you raced mopeds around Manfeild the one with marginally more power (top speed) would be alot quicker.

For a semi skilled rider (someone still on L plates) on a 600 around Manfield. If you halved the power to say 60hp they would find the bike alot easier to ride and probably tell you it handles better than the bike with normal power.

More powerful the bike the more throttle control and precise braking points are required. Something a semi skilled rider doesn't have.

Was Casey Stoner the best rider this year or did he have a better bike? Did he have more power or better handling?

Power can be quantified easily but handling can be very subjective. Also why complicate things by giving the bike with good power crap brakes.

[BIGBOSSMAN]

My vote is for power - Graeme Crosby rode ill handling but wickedly powerful bikes for half a career and won on them against guys on better set up machinery. :rockon:

[roadracingoldfart]

So whats the 600 your giving me to ride then Glen ??????:2thumbsup
Ohh did i read the thread wrong again ? :weep:

[DUCATI*HARD]

ill go with performance,not power:niceone:

[codgyoleracer]

So whats the 600 your giving me to ride then Glen ??????:2thumbsup
Ohh did i read the thread wrong again ? :weep:

Good to see your classing yourself as semi-skilled still Paul

[roogazza]

My vote is for power - Graeme Crosby rode ill handling but wickedly powerful bikes for half a career and won on them against guys on better set up machinery. :rockon:

Exactly, But there are very few Crosby's around, and were his bikes really that bad ? He certainly made them look wild .( now there is a thread start, "who is the Crosby of today," ? I can't think of one ! ) Gaz.

[slowpoke]

Hmmm, hard to compare bikes without specifics. I can't think of something comparable in the mid-range bikes but take say a 996R Ducati with OEM Ohlins and Brembo gear and compare it to a K1 GSXR1000 with it's wooden OEM brake pads, relatively crook front end but awesome motor and the GSXR was always quicker in the track tests I read at the time.

[scumdog]

I ride FXDX what would I know??

Lacking in power AND marshmallow mounted swing-arm........

[avgas]

to be honest a few people here i think are biased in their minds.
everyone is saying handling.....but yet they dont ride buells/rs250's etc.
This is a good question actually, its kinda like asking whether you would ride a scooter or not......very awkward to get a "straight" answer

[GSVR]

to be honest a few people here i think are biased in their minds.
everyone is saying handling.....but yet they dont ride buells/rs250's etc.
This is a good question actually, its kinda like asking whether you would ride a scooter or not......very awkward to get a "straight" answer

Yeah like anyone on a more powerful bike isnt going to admit it easily. They would rather have everyone thinking they where a quicker rider and can get their bike handling better.

Why not just have a bike that has more power and the best handling? Bit like asking a Protwin bike to keep up with a F3 bike thats had thousands spent on the motor and is allowed better forks, brakes, wheels and tyres.

BTW I reacon I go round corners faster on my scooter than the SV and the scooter has no damping and shit tyres. Probably more about not giving a fuck if I fall off the scooter.

[TonyB]

I reckon it'll be bike No1, the bike that handles- and not necesarily because of the handling, but because the 'power' bike No2 has 'shit brakes'. The shit brakes mean that it has to start braking earlier and for longer, and the bad handling means it has to enter the corner at a slower speed as well, so bike No1 will just slide underneath, and pull away through the bend because of the superior handling. Shouldn't be too hard to stay in front after that- 30% more power doesn't mean 30% faster.

If bike No2 had awesome brakes and power but shit handling it'd win...this is what happens when you race against Motards on a road bike, they outbrake you because they're 50kg lighter, baulk you in the corner, then hook up and drive out well. Sure you may start to catch them as the speed climbs, but then you've gotta slow a heavier bike from a higher speed.

[HDTboy]

"who is the Crosby of today" I can't think of one ! ) Gaz.

J

I'd go the handling. Especially if it has more brakes than Jills shoulder. Am I allowed to put padding on the tank?

[Flyno]

i ride a 125, they arent intensely fast but they go well, they go fast because the handling, whitch is the corner speed, making it a good weapon

[twinshock750]

I've been there. Bike one 120hp 160kg average handling. Bike 2 70hp, 105kg, better handling. Difference is over 8 seconds at a supposed HP track....to Bike 2 - the least powerful bike I've raced in recent history.

At most places when you have finally got the evil pig around the corner and and fought it to a point you can get on the gas, the slower bike has buggered off and you may just catch them at the next braking marker. If you are lucky. Meanwhile you're braking they are on the gas still and then after doing some demon braking fire it in on their knee and are gone...

Lap speed when it comes down to it is all about average use of horsepower. 125 vs a crap handling F3 450cc/4?
125 45hp say. on the gas for say 80% of the time at Puke 45hp X 80% = 36.00
F3 say 75 hp. on the gas only 50% of the time while he buggers around on and off the corners, get a slapper down the back (takes her name to come back later!) 75 x 50% = 37.5hp.

pretty sick comparison when you start looking at bike weights also...

[slowpoke]

I've been there. Bike one 120hp 160kg average handling. Bike 2 70hp, 105kg, better handling. Difference is over 8 seconds at a supposed HP track....to Bike 2 - the least powerful bike I've raced in recent history.


The power to weight ratios's are quite similar 0.75hp/kg and 0.68hp/hp so you'd expect the better handling and braking capabilities of the much lighter bike to give it a big advantage.

[twinshock750]

Ignore the power to weight as the rider plays a big effect on the low power low weight bike. Plus The big HP bike honks, believe me....its has 40+km/h on the low power bike as you get into drag issues as well.

ie to double the squeed you need square (ie double x double) of the power...

Which reinforces the aspect of within the bounds of reality, handling over power...

[avgas]

"How can you say that power can corrupt a person....you haven't had enough to know what its like"

Here is a lovely sticker for bike 1 i made.

But just as a ball park here - does bike 2 have more torque, or the same as that makes a big difference to the equation.

[DEATH_INC.]

Power rules.....give my old shitta another 70 hp and see if ya can beat me round minefeild.....

[avgas]

Power rules.....give my old shitta another 70 hp and see if ya can beat me round minefeild.....
I thought ya ZX was pushing 200hp by now?

[roogazza]

Looking at this pole, I was thinking , is this not reflective of a more modern approach and the age of your average Kiwibiker ?????
I'm still in the dark ages where you just rode around stuff, give me the power , I'll figure the rest !!!
Gaz.

[GSVR]

Looking at this pole, I was thinking , is this not reflective of a more modern approach and the age of your average Kiwibiker ?????
I'm still in the dark ages where you just rode around stuff, give me the power , I'll figure the rest !!!
Gaz.

I think I'm actually beginning to understand the concept of going faster on a slower bike.

Ducati 749s are allowed to race in Supersport but they are not competitive because although they have plenty of power they handle like shit and the brakes are no good.

Also Craig Sherriffs 600 can beat Andrew Strouds 1000 around Wangas because it handles heaps better. Strouds a friggin legend just to be able to keep up. What happends at Paeroa?

250GP bikes are not allowed in F3 because their engines don't handle.

[codgyoleracer]

Exactly, But there are very few Crosby's around, and were his bikes really that bad ? He certainly made them look wild .( now there is a thread start, "who is the Crosby of today," ? I can't think of one ! ) Gaz.

The diffference seems to be that sportsbikes bikes nowdays do generally handle very very well indeed "out of the box" compared to the past & the optimisation of available tyre grip is very high (compared to the old days). To get a modern bike as bent in the middle as the great Graeme Crosby used to get his - you would suspect that the modern bike had a fault (because they just dont "bend in the middle" that much anymore).
To put it another way - Graeme had the skill to overide the bike design yet still utilise the avialable tyre grip & still stay on board the thing. Todays bikes utilise the available grip to a much higher level + on top of that bike tyres have a way higher grip level than in Croz's days & so everyone (even an average Joe Blow like me goes faster & in much more control)
Hope thats not to confusing for ya ?:mellow:

[roogazza]

Cheers Codgy,
Modern stuff would probably scare the shit out of me , I'd be going so bloody fast before the bike would start getting busy. The old brain wouldn't keep up.
I sit there like a 'sack of spuds' dragging the rear brake, so they probably wouldn't suit me.
So , anyway , it appears everyone is in favour of good handling over HP which is good. ( I suppose ??) Gaz.

[Drew]

I think I'm actually beginning to understand the concept of going faster on a slower bike.

Ducati 749s are allowed to race in Supersport but they are not competitive because although they have plenty of power they handle like shit and the brakes are no good.

Also Craig Sherriffs 600 can beat Andrew Strouds 1000 around Wangas because it handles heaps better. Strouds a friggin legend just to be able to keep up. What happends at Paeroa?

250GP bikes are not allowed in F3 because their engines don't handle.

Are you on something less than legal Garry? That's backwards bro. The 749s makes even less power than the R's we have, but make some ground back up on 600's in handling. They have full ohlins, and have adjustable steering head and other goodies. The s is infact a 748cc engine. The brakes are very good on them too.

Wanganui is a useless comparison for the purpose of this thread, as it is not a track, or even a decent twisty road, it's a series of friggin intersections in the middle of a city.