Wet cornering gear selection?

[Toast]

I guess that this applies to cornering in the dry when you're fairly hard on the gas and have a decent lean on too, but sticking with a wet track example:

Going around a corner in the wet with some decent lean angle, rolling the gas on, are you:

- in a hgher gear with moderate revs to keep it smooth and possibly get a bit more traction, but if it does spin, the rear wheel picks up more speed for a given engine speed; or

- in a lower gear with the engine screaming, rear end feeling a little fidgety, but if it does spin, it's more controllable

EDIT: Assumed that the corner speed in both cases is the same.

[jrandom]

- in a lower gear with moderate revs to keep it smooth and possibly get a bit more traction, but if it does spin, the rear wheel picks up more speed for a given engine speed; or

- in a higher gear with the engine screaming, rear end feeling a little fidgety, but if it does spin, it's more controllable

You got the lower/higher around the wrong way there dude.

But, yes, higher gear all the way, particularly on a revvy bike with sensitive throttle and EFI, to minimise the likelihood of a fast loss of traction.

For me, anyway, being the rank newbie that I am. A better rider would probably get more corner pace out of the lower gear.

[Toast]

You got the lower/higher around the wrong way there dude.

But, yes, higher gear all the way, particularly on a revvy bike with sensitive throttle and EFI, to minimise the likelihood of a fast loss of traction.

For me, anyway, being the rank newbie that I am. A better rider would probably get more corner pace out of the lower gear.

Ah, thanks for that, fixed now.

I'm assuming a given corner speed here too, so the only variables really are the gear and the revs in that gear, for that speed

[jrandom]

I'm assuming a given corner speed here too, so the only variables really are the gear and the revs in that gear, for that speed

It would really depend on how well one could finesse the throttle, I suppose.

Then again, I'm still nursing my sore thumb from highsiding at a wet apex after whacking on the throttle in 2nd, so I'm biased.

Fists of ham I have.

[ArcherWC]

I try to square the corner as much as possible, back it in, MX styles

I also tend to trail the rear brake to control wheel spin

[jrandom]

I also tend to trail the rear brake to control wheel spin

Heh, be careful when doing that on a bike that you're not familiar with. I locked up the rear of the MV yesterday coming into a 35k corner :p

The stream of consciousness went something like "skitter skitter sliiiiide, wtf's that, oh fuck I just locked the rear wheel, wow that brake actually works, unlike my bike, oh I suppose I should let go of it and get on the gas now..."

[Krusti]

Smooth, gentle and a good rythm..... works on anything wet :2thumbsup

[Sully60]

Today 14:42
Toast Wet cornering gear selection?

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I - in a lower gear with the engine screaming, rear end feeling a little fidgety, but if it does spin, it's more controllable


Everytime a coconut and like Archer use the rear brake to modulate wheelspin.
Reasons and this is generalising here and not applicable to all situation, bikes, corners etc:

The higher revs usually means most bike are past peak torque and closer to the rev ceiling/limiter an easy form of traction control fitted to all bike since the beginnig of time, if the bike spins up with the revs high it'll hit the rev limiter before the wheel spins too fast and you get to far sideways.

This is going to sound shit but go play MotoGP3 on the Playstation and all the bikes behave this way. you can spin them up mid corner form the midrange but you usually highside, but if you do it form high revs they just hit the limiter and stop sliding.

This style requires you to be ready to upshift on the immediate exit of the corner so you don't bounce off the limiter trying to get your foot to the gear lever. You do have to be a little careful becuse if you exited the corner well you'l probably still be leaned over slighty when the time to make this shift. Also remember your clutch is your best friend when things get slippery, "slur" the gear shifts and don't dump the clutch (in up and downshifts)

I've tried running a gear higher and using the torque but when things let go theres a lot of tscope for things to get really sideways really quickly and in an uncontrolled manner (therefore increase the amplitude of the highslide -ouch- or have you spinning out sliding on your arse down the track before you have time to react)

The rear brake can be used to both smooth out the intial jerk from the closed throttle and retard any spin from there on.

The main thing in the rain is to stay smooth!
Just my experience anyway, hope it helps.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

I try to square the corner as much as possible, back it in, MX styles

I also tend to trail the rear brake to control wheel spin

backing it in in the wet. when traction is at its lowest, you want to break traction on purpose?

trailing rear brake on exit. why not just roll on slower, less distraction?

not being critical, im genuinely interested.
Kyle

[Sully60]

backing it in in the wet. when traction is at its lowest, you want to break traction on purpose?

trailing rear brake on exit. why not just roll on slower, less distraction?

not being critical, im genuinely interested.
Kyle
Backing in done the right way doesn't mean all the traction at the rear is gone, watch the euro guys on Motards and you'll find the rear wheel never stops turning which is why in the dry they can enter the turns sideways with the frame rails on the deck.
I don't know what Archer thinks but the more turning done by the rear before the apex means you have to do less turning with the front. Which end would you rather slide?:shit:
I found once the rear is hanging out you can actually break harder with the front and generally hit your apex's more comfortably with the front loaded up far less that you would if you'd entered the turn wheels in line. Not any faster but a little safer for spoads like me.

[Ivan]

I find on the RS I like the engine revving as they kick in hard into power badn that if i got the engine revving in wet smooth throttle etc the bike is good if I ride in a low rev and the bike cuts into power band whilst cranked over that would be me gone most likely.....

My Opinion

[GSVR]

Trying to think of times I rode in the wet and I'm sure I use the same gear as in the dry but the revs would be a bit lower because I'm going slower.
Twins have very wide torque and are probably easier than anything to ride in the wet.

A peaky twostroke would have to be the worst in all aspects except for the engine brakes. But then maybe engine braking is a good thing as it is extremely consisant more so than your rear brake so four stroke engine brakes may actually help..

[Sketchy_Racer]

Two strokes, white paint lines and slicks with a little bit of water SUCK ARSE! Trust me haha.

But yeah a peaky little 125 is a bit of a handful at times

[roogazza]

Smooth, gentle and a good rythm..... works on anything wet :2thumbsup

you talking bikes or sex ! ? G.

[MSTRS]

you talking bikes or sex ! ? G.

Yes he is...

[puddy]

First gear in corners, wet or dry! Doesn't even matter if it's 25 kph or 95 kph.:scooter:

[codgyoleracer]

Wet riding/racing & Gears,
You will go through some corners quicker by staying in a higher gear & saving yourself the hassle of changing down the extra gear & destabilsing the bike on a slipperish surface ( + of course the saved gear upchange coming out).
Matching revs & gear choice on the down change becomes more important also.
Other matters relating to gearing & the wet in racing conditions is choosing the right gear ratio's to run in the wet that relate to your reduced corner entry/exit speeds.

Obviously there is a bunch of other stuff outside of "gear choice" to consider for confident wet weather racing.
GlenW

[Toast]

Interesting that most of the votes have gone to high gear/ low revs, but the comments don't necessarily reflect that.

The reason I ask this question is because I had a small low-side caused by loss of rear wheel traction while going through turn 3 of a soaked Taupo track last week. I'd had a few spin ups through other corners of the track, usually when in a lower gear with the revs up, and rode those out just by keeping the gas constant. This particular corner I'd been using 3rd gear with moderate revs, about 9k rpm. When the wheel did start to slide I used the aformentioned technique which has saved me many times (never had a high side, nor any crash I can think of that was caused by loss of rear grip), but the wheel was seemingly spinning so fast, so quickly that it wasn't going to come back (maybe cutting the gas slightly would help but it's not a course of action I'm used to).

There were other factors involved, including using a stiffer rear shock spring than I'd ever had in the dry prior to that day, but given other losses of rear wheel traction on other corners that day, I believe that it could've been saved a lot easier by using the higher end of the revs as opposed to the miid range. Free traction control, like Sully says.

[jrandom]

Interesting that most of the votes have gone to high gear/ low revs, but the comments don't necessarily reflect that.

Could be a difference between road and track riding focuses. I'd say that a lower gear and higher revs might make a small slide slightly more likely, but more controllable, whereas a higher gear would give you a lower chance overall of breaking the rear loose, with a greater chance of landing on your arse once it did. Perhaps I'd go for the former for the track, and the latter for the road. I don't really know; haven't been on a track yet...

I guess it'd make a huge difference what sort of bike you were riding, too. I'm spoiling myself by riding a K2 thou at the moment. At 'moderate' road speeds, gear selection and engine revs don't really matter.

:p

[kiwifruit]

Could be a difference between road and track riding focuses.



good call babe

[Toast]

Could be a difference between road and track riding focuses. I'd say that a lower gear and higher revs might make a small slide slightly more likely, but more controllable, whereas a higher gear would give you a lower chance overall of breaking the rear loose, with a greater chance of landing on your arse once it did. Perhaps I'd go for the former for the track, and the latter for the road. I don't really know; haven't been on a track yet...

I guess it'd make a huge difference what sort of bike you were riding, too. I'm spoiling myself by riding a K2 thou at the moment. At 'moderate' road speeds, gear selection and engine revs don't really matter.

:p

I'd hoped that posting this in the racing forum would have kept the focus on track riding, but yeah, I had suspected what you mention.

I don't know why you'd want to have an uncontrollable slide on the ride over having one on the track though. I'd way rather bin it on the track.

[jrandom]

I don't know why you'd want to have an uncontrollable slide on the ride over having one on the track though. I'd way rather bin it on the track.

More like, I wouldn't want any sliding on the road, so I use much lower revs to make sure that it's not likely to happen. A small slide is fine on the track, but on the road there's too much going on, too much chance of unknown variables. So many corners with random crap on the surface, so many cars that cross the centerline. Better not to have to deal with the rear wheel doing anything other than tracking straight and solid, and your best chance of keeping it that way without any 'moments' is to keep the revs down.

[Toast]

More like, I wouldn't want any sliding on the road, so I use much lower revs to make sure that it's not likely to happen. A small slide is fine on the track, but on the road there's too much going on, too much chance of unknown variables. So many corners with random crap on the surface, so many cars that cross the centerline. Better not to have to deal with the rear wheel doing anything other than tracking straight and solid, and your best chance of keeping it that way without any 'moments' is to keep the revs down.

My problem with that is if you hit random crap such as a tar snake or some oil, you will be spinning up in any gear, at any revs if you are rolling the gas on. Since it's going to happen anyway, I'd rather have it be more controllable.

[jrandom]

if you hit random crap such as a tar snake or some oil, you will be spinning up in any gear...

Not necessarily.

The likelihood of the rear spinning up at a given speed on the road is proportional to the torque being exerted through the drivetrain. More twisting force applied to the wheel at the same speed of rotation makes it both less likely to stall, and more likely to lose traction.

Higher revs, geared down, means more twisting force at the axle for the same speed of rotation. 'Torque multiplication' is the applicable phrase, I think.

Therefore, all other things being equal, a loss of traction at a given speed on a given surface is more likely in a lower gear at higher revs.

The physics don't lie, and if you think about it, it matches the average rider's 'seat of the pants' experience, too.

[Toast]

I agree that a loss of traction is more likely in a lower gear, at higher revs, as I stated in the very first post.

My experience is that on a wet tar snake or some oil there is effectively, for a bike with more than 15 degrees lean on, zero traction to be had. So once on such a zero traction surface and with the throttle being rolled on, you're losing grip and the back wheel is accelerating however little 'twisting force' you've got going to the back wheel. And unless your throttle hand is perfectly matched to or below rear wheel speed, then the back wheel is going to go sideways quickly.

But road riding and hitting patches of shit in the wet was not the point of this thread.

[jrandom]

... road riding and hitting patches of shit in the wet was not the point of this thread.

Yes. I know. Sorry, I'll shut up now.

And agreed re. having SFA chance of maintaining traction at any sort of lean if the wheels hit road spooge.

[slowpoke]

I remember reading an article about the 500cc boys using the clutch to modulate wheelspin. Something about better dexterity with your hands, the clutch isn't as on/off etc.

[Sully60]

I remember reading an article about the 500cc boys using the clutch to modulate wheelspin. Something about better dexterity with your hands, the clutch isn't as on/off etc.

Yeah the clutch can be a really usefull way to limit torque and therefore control traction. I never used it on a 500 (cos talking about them is as close as I ever got:blink:) but I have used it in extremely slippery conditions on and off road. In quite a few situations off road the clutch lever is right in and I'm just bicycling through them, these are situations were you cannot use any torque being it under power or throttled off and using the back torque (from 4-stroke enduro and MX bike experiences) Though I did crash my YZ motarding on a wet kart track from not carrying throttle or freewheeling clutch in, got to the apex with a closed throttle and spun around like a top and ended up facing the way I came. Too much back torque, I might as well had jammed the back brake on mid corner from the way it "spun out".

As I said in my earlier diatribe this technique might not apply to all situations and it's probably not as necessary on the race track, but when the shit has totally hit the fan it's an easy way of keeping the bike a bit more balanced front to back so you can concetrate on keeping the thing going were you want it.

If you haven't already got one or have access to one get a dirt bike and go ride in the rain, you will fall off, lots but if you stick at it you gain skills that make riding on wet tarmac seem like a doddle. Practicing is the best way to improve but you don't want to trowel your road/race bike trying stuff like out, do it on the dirt at 1/4 the speed so stuff (like your legs and arms etc) doesn't break.

So as the experienced heads have said earlier in this thread its all about being smooth and applying the torque (forward or back torque) in a smooth and predictable manner.
Another two cents spent on this thread, well spent if you take away one thing that helps you out.

[James Deuce]

Jrandom has hit the nail on the head.

OAB posted a vid of him crashing his GSXR on track. In the dry, but bear with me. OAB was using surprisingly few revs to go very quickly. When the rear lost traction it spun up blindingly fast and as it went through the engine's peak torque output the bike spat him off.

Same thing happens in the wet. If you ride around in the broadest, flattest part of the torque curve it all feels a great deal less twitchy. It means using more revs than you'd think sensible though. Niall McKenzie spoke about the very same technique in a recent issue of TWO magazine, along with pointing out that you need to be reasonably committed in the wet to keep your tyres in contact with the road. You can also brake just as hard in the wet in regard to peak braking force, but you have to be gentle and build up to that peak a little slower than in the dry.