Pre-Election Poll

[NighthawkNZ]

This is a serious poll... At this stage if there was a snap election who would you vote for...

Political Party List
http://www.elections.org.nz/parties/registered_political_parties.html

[jrandom]

The Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party, and my incumbent electorate representative, whoever that may be.

[Finn]

Where's the damn poll? I want to vote.

[NighthawkNZ]

Where's the damn poll? I want to vote.

hadn't finished making it.. the board makes the post and then you have to make the poll

[MotoGirl]

Where's the "I have no idea" option? All political parties are evil so I'd be stumped as to which one to actually vote for!

[NighthawkNZ]

Where's the "I have no idea" option? All political parties are evil so I'd be stumped as to which one to actually vote for!

other I suppose... :scratch:

[Cajun]

Where's the "I have no idea" option? All political parties are evil so I'd be stumped as to which one to actually vote for!

your vote for who you are told to dc:<

[Trudes]

I'm still pissed off there's no McGillicuddy Serious Party anymore.

[NighthawkNZ]

I'm still pissed off there's no McGillicuddy Serious Party anymore.

ha... me too... :D

[Finn]

Who the fuck voted for NZ First? I want your head.

[Trudes]

Who the fuck voted for NZ First? I want your head.

I did, come and get it

[Cajun]

Who the fuck voted for NZ First? I want your head.

its a public poll you should be able to see voted for what

[NighthawkNZ]

I did, come and get it

can yah post it... :baby: :Playnice:

[MotoGirl]

your vote for who you are told to dc:<

Well I wouldn't want to waste a good vote now would I?

[Finn]

Where's the "I have no idea" option?

It's called Labour.

[Finn]

I did, come and get it

Do you sell Amway as well?

[MotoGirl]

It's called Labour.

No can do I'm afraid, I'm the wrong colour.

[Wolf]

I'm voting for Libertarianz as at least they want to make reforms in the self defence laws in this country rather than taking away all our rights to live like Labour and National do.

Only difference between Labour and National is that National wants to nibble on GW's crotch.

[roogazza]

Certainly not that Labour leader that looks like a 'double happy' has gone off in her mouth...... Gaz.

[idleidolidyll]

It's called Labour.

No, that's National as in "Fucked if we know what our policies are, we'll do what they do but with tax cuts (but if they offer tax cuts they're 'bribing' you)"

National's a fucking joke

[idleidolidyll]

Tupperware is made in China not NZ. Where's your patriotism? Mind you, if it was made in NZ it would cost $250 for a lunchbox with a lid that doesn't fit.

you're a capitalist, what the fuck does patriotism have to do with it?

capitalists don't give a rats arse which country they bleed be it theirs or some other unfortunate target

[ManDownUnder]

Tupperware is made in China not NZ. Where's your patriotism? Mind you, if it was made in NZ it would cost $250 for a lunchbox with a lid that doesn't fit.

But at least it wouldn't fit in keeping with the treaty.

[Bren]

Looks like Auntie Helen may be in trouble!

[idleidolidyll]

Looks like Auntie Helen may be in trouble!

that's what they said at the last election when Brash caught up 6 months in advance of the election.

i wouldn't be promenading yet, there's damn near a year to go and Kiwis have short memories (they elected National a number of times)

a 4th consecutive term is a near impossibility if history is to be considered but this is MMP and regardless of the difference between National and Labour, it may again be the minor parties who carry the win.

[Pussy]

Ah, the Green Party.... they reckon they care so much about the planet, and they're hardly ever on it

[eliot-ness]

My vote goes to the Librarians, at least they should know how to balance the books

[Mole_C]

Go greens go

[Brett]

Unfortuanately this pole will not be representative of the national demographic. Most of the people on here own their own business' or are not low income earners hence voting Labour would not be there cup of tea. I WISH it was representative of Kiwiland as I have a great, huge & massive dislike for aunty Helen. Obviously I voted National.

[Skyryder]

you're a capitalist, what the fuck does patriotism have to do with it?

capitalists don't give a rats arse which country they bleed be it theirs or some other unfortunate target

Right on. Nothing more to say.

Skyyrder

[oldrider]

Unfortuanately this pole will not be representative of the national demographic. Most of the people on here own their own business' or are not low income earners hence voting Labour would not be there cup of tea. I WISH it was representative of Kiwiland as I have a great, huge & massive dislike for aunty Helen. Obviously I voted National.

Left wing voters start off voting for what their school teachers brain wash them about.

As they gain real life experience/intelligence they start to think for themselves and they move more to the right!

(The adage: Those that can, do! Those that can't, teach! Springs to mind)

Those that remain loyal to the left are victims of the boiled frog syndrome. :confused:

Those that move to the right are free thinkers! :ride: Cheers, John.

[Sanx]

sure, politics never end

did you really think the lame arguments i've seen convinced me to change my mind?

And I'm sure a pretty large number of people on the other side of the centrist fence are thinking exactly the same thing.

[idleidolidyll]

Left wing voters start off voting for what their school teachers brain wash them about.

As they gain real life experience/intelligence they start to think for themselves and they move more to the right!

(The adage: Those that can, do! Those that can't, teach! Springs to mind)

Those that remain loyal to the left are victims of the boiled frog syndrome. :confused:

Those that move to the right are free thinkers! :ride: Cheers, John.

Ahh, THAT old hackneyed bullshit. It started in the US and goes something like this:

"Voters start out by voting Liberal but as they grow older and wiser they start voting Conservative."

Of course it's just stupid propaganda and bears no resemblance to reality. That much can be seen by the numbers of voters who vote left wing liberal and the number of young pinheads here who support national.

My personal experience is that I started out voting National but soon realised they supported foreign businesses and governments and cared fuck all for ordinary Kiwis beyond the money their mates could fleece us for.
This was all confirmed later when I worked in Asia as a Sales Mgr and competed for World Bank and IMF contracts: It was clear that corruption ruled the roost and that corruption was overwhelmingly right wing fascism.

[NighthawkNZ]

Unfortuanately this pole will not be representative of the national demographic. Most of the people on here own their own business' or are not low income earners hence voting Labour would not be there cup of tea. I WISH it was representative of Kiwiland as I have a great, huge & massive dislike for aunty Helen. Obviously I voted National.

this maybe be true... but it interesting to watch either which way

[devnull]

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of wealth; the inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery"

[Pussy]

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of wealth; the inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery"

Love your work!!

[idleidolidyll]

Quotes?
I got a million of em:

"There seems to be nothing to prevent the transnational corporations taking possession of the planet and subjecting humanity to the dictatorship of capital.... In order to crush any thought of organized resistance to the supporters of the new world order, tremendous police and military forces are being used to establish a doctrine of repression...."

— Christian la Brie
Le Monde Diplomatique
Paris

[idleidolidyll]

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavour to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."


— Abraham Lincoln
1865



"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government of the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1>U.S.</st1></st1:country-region> since the days of Andrew Jackson."



— <st1:city w:st="on">Franklin</st1:city> D.<st1>Roosevelt

</st1><o></o>

"A great industrial Nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the Nation and all our activities are in the hands of a few men.<o></o>
"We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the world — no longer a Government of free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men."


— Woodrow Wilson

[idleidolidyll]

It's because they are kept ignorant of course:

"The owners and managers of the press (capitalists) determine which person, which facts, which version of the facts, and which ideas shall reach the public."
Report by the (US) Commission on Freedom of the Press

"When I was Times bureau chief in Washington, I was a member of the League of Gentlemen ; otherwise I never would have been bureau chief. Time after time, good reporters ... complained about not being able to get stories in the paper. And time after time I said to them, 'You're just not going to get that in the New York Times... it's too reliant on your judgement rather than on official judgement, it's too complex, it contradicts the official record more flagrantly than the conventions of daily journalism allow.'"
— Tom Wicker
New York Times columnist
[I]Guardian (London)

"There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, as an independent press. You know it and I know it.
"There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job.
"If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone.
"The business of the journalist is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell the country for his daily bread.
"You know it and I know it, and what folly is this toasting an independent press.
"We are the tools and vassals of the rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men.
"We are intellectual prostitutes."
— John Swinton
ex New York Times editor
in a speech before the New York Press Club

[SimJen]

you gotta love Labour though, on one hand they're promoting "Buy NZ Made" on the other we side with a Communist power and our Free Trade agreement with China.
Why do we have free trade with a country that has massive human rights abuse????
Why are we still promoting NZ Made when fuck all is these days, and Labours crap tax system is pushing our businesses off shore loosing jobs and shutting down small towns!
Why does Labour not punish some dork for smacking someone else!
Why does Labour only now pull out the Tax Cuts when previously they had adamantly stated they wouldn't be happening! (VOTES).
Why does Helen make trips to Waiheke Island?
Why does Labour do half of the ridiculous shit and get away with it!!!!!!
Because we let the bitch thats why!!!!!
Vote cleverly this election and change it!!!! and don't vote for a tiny party that won't swing the vote.

[SimJen]

To be honest I don't really care!!!! The above post was just to wind a few people up :)
Politics is just a ridiculous bunch of kids dicking around for big money!!!
They should try and do some real fucken work instead of whinging and fighting like pathetic little girls.
Democracy is bullshit!! When was the last time anyone had a say!!!
VIVA LA REVOLUTION :)

[idleidolidyll]

you gotta love Labour though, on one hand they're promoting "Buy NZ Made" on the other we side with a Communist power and our Free Trade agreement with China.

Something the BRT and National applaud and will expand of course. Fascists LIKE dealing with corrupt governments.

Why do we have free trade with a country that has massive human rights abuse????

Yes, why DO we trade with the USA?

Why are we still promoting NZ Made when fuck all is these days, and Labours crap tax system is pushing our businesses off shore loosing jobs and shutting down small towns!

It's a start at least. Undert National we'll be sold down the river to the country most willing to make our politicians richer.

Why does Labour not punish some dork for smacking someone else!

Labour is not a court. Why does National want to kill foreigners?

Why does Labour only now pull out the Tax Cuts when previously they had adamantly stated they wouldn't be happening! (VOTES).

Actually they ALWAYS said there would be tax cuts, they just delayed them. The really funny thing is that National and it's supporters complain that Labour's offer of tax cuts is a bribe but Nationals offer of tax cuts isn't. Go figure; cognitive dissonance anyone? National thinks were all sucker and it seems they are partly right.

Why does Helen make trips to Waiheke Island?

Who gives a fuck?

Why does Labour do half of the ridiculous shit and get away with it!!!!!!

Because that's what ALL politicians do and National is worse. Watch them shift wealth up the chain and let lower income earners suffer.

Because we let the bitch thats why!!!!!

AHA! It's a testosterone thing I see. Why does a female leader upset you so?

Vote cleverly this election and change it!!!! and don't vote for a tiny party that won't swing the vote.

Yes, vote cleverly. Investigate the promises and actions of all parties. Don't buy into propaganda. Ask National what their policies actually are (they're keeping them secret for good reason). Think about the sellout of NZ that's gonna happen again under National. Think about a repeat of the odious Employment Contracts Act that drove real income down. Think about Kiwis dying overseas on behalf of foreign capitalism.

[SimJen]

Originally Posted by SimJen
you gotta love Labour though, on one hand they're promoting "Buy NZ Made" on the other we side with a Communist power and our Free Trade agreement with China.

Something the BRT and National applaud and will expand of course. Fascists LIKE dealing with corrupt governments.

Whatever, so its alright then!

Why do we have free trade with a country that has massive human rights abuse????

Yes, why DO we trade with the USA?

Questionable but I see your point

Why are we still promoting NZ Made when fuck all is these days, and Labours crap tax system is pushing our businesses off shore loosing jobs and shutting down small towns!

It's a start at least. Undert National we'll be sold down the river to the country most willing to make our politicians richer.

Interesting!!!! but Labour started it

Why does Labour not punish some dork for smacking someone else!

Labour is not a court. Why does National want to kill foreigners?

National doesn't want to kill foreigners, how can Labour dictate any form of Law and Order system when they won't follow any laws themselves.
They can't even make the cops go and arrest some maoris blocking access to the odd road (too scared to attract the "Racist" remarks).

Why does Labour only now pull out the Tax Cuts when previously they had adamantly stated they wouldn't be happening! (VOTES).

Actually they ALWAYS said there would be tax cuts, they just delayed them. The really funny thing is that National and it's supporters complain that Labour's offer of tax cuts is a bribe but Nationals offer of tax cuts isn't. Go figure; cognitive dissonance anyone? National thinks were all sucker and it seems they are partly right.

So they've been stealing all our money for the last 8 years or so!!!! Thats nice, I'd love to see some of it back!!!

Why does Helen make trips to Waiheke Island?

Who gives a fuck?

I do, why live a LIE

Why does Labour do half of the ridiculous shit and get away with it!!!!!!

Because that's what ALL politicians do and National is worse. Watch them shift wealth up the chain and let lower income earners suffer.

Lower income earners earn less for a reason!!!! Its called School and if they had listened to their parents etc they wouldn't be in the position they are! We can't be accountable for other peoples fuckups!!! and why should others who did something useful with their lives have to pander to those that didn't. Under labour everyone is equal hmmmm. like communism!!!

Because we let the bitch thats why!!!!!

AHA! It's a testosterone thing I see. Why does a female leader upset you so?

A female leader makes no difference to me!!!!
If Labour had a male leader with the same values then I would have called him a bastard!

Vote cleverly this election and change it!!!! and don't vote for a tiny party that won't swing the vote.

Yes, vote cleverly. Investigate the promises and actions of all parties. Don't buy into propaganda. Ask National what their policies actually are (they're keeping them secret for good reason). Think about the sellout of NZ that's gonna happen again under National. Think about a repeat of the odious Employment Contracts Act that drove real income down. Think about Kiwis dying overseas on behalf of foreign capitalism.

The sellout of NZ has already happened mate! Labour have done it nicely.
They've fucked employers, fucked businesses to the point they have to move overseas. They've fucked the everyday person just trying to get by, sucking too much tax off them for the last 8 years and screwing there education with societies general dumbing down.
Labour have been lucky to have the weak USD support them for these past few years, it had to come to an end though.
And your just fucked off that they will lose the next election!
Bleat on as much as you like, get all the anti capitalism quotes you need.
Whether its a National led government or what I don't care, just as long as Labour is out in the gutter where they belong!

10 characters

[swbarnett]

There is a perception in probably most democratic countries that everybody should vote no matter what. In my mind this just messes up the system. If you actually think one party is better than another then, yes, you should vote. But if you're truly undecided then voting just turns an election into a lottery. Leave the voting to those that actually have an opinion. One of the best run countries I know only get's a 20% to 30% turn out for their general elections.

The actual system of government is the most democratic I've seen. The government (both federal and local) run the day to day affairs on their own but any major decisions (which road barriers to use for instance) would go to a legally binding refarendum (we got about four a month in the mail). You even get to vote on whether you approve next year's budget.

[Finn]

National's a fucking joke

The rest of KiwiBiker doesn't agree with you... but I guess you'd be used to that by now.

Get a job and a haircut and stop being a burden to hardworking NZers.

[Finn]

you're a capitalist, what the fuck does patriotism have to do with it?

Like most uneducated people, you don't seem to understand that one can embrace Capitalism and be patriotic to your home land. However, you do raise a good point in that I am not very patriotic as far as NZ goes. I used to be, but I just don't take the place seriously anymore.

[idleidolidyll]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/bgold/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1280581#post1280581)
Originally Posted by SimJen
you gotta love Labour though, on one hand they're promoting "Buy NZ Made" on the other we side with a Communist power and our Free Trade agreement with China.

idolidleidyll: Something the BRT and National applaud and will expand of course. Fascists LIKE dealing with corrupt governments.

Whatever, so its alright then!

Nope, it's a pile of shit but you decided to slam Labour without noting that National is likely to be even closer because that's where the money is.

Why do we have free trade with a country that has massive human rights abuse????

Yes, why DO we trade with the USA?

Questionable but I see your point

Nope, not questionable at all. The USA has supported fascists and dictators and overthrown democracies in order to steal their resources and economies. In doing so it is responsible for the deaths of many millions of people. This website offers quite specific examples of Amerikan Terrorism: http://www.intellnet.org/resources/american_terrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html

Why are we still promoting NZ Made when fuck all is these days, and Labours crap tax system is pushing our businesses off shore loosing jobs and shutting down small towns!

It's a start at least. Under National we'll be sold down the river to the country most willing to make our politicians richer.

Interesting!!!! but Labour started it

Yes, the most recent abuse started with Roger Douglas who was a traitor as far as many Labour supporters are concerned. He showed his true colours when he went on to start the extreme right wing ACT party. Douglas was always right wing and should never have been allowed to reach such a position in a left wing party. HOWEVER: the fact is that National extended his policies and will extend them even further driving down real income in return for extra wealth for the already wealthy. Looking at TODAY's parties, both National and Labour have a lot to answer for but National is worse and frankly, I don't intend to vote for either of them. The worst thing that could happen is for either of them to gain an absolute majority. Talk about riding roughshod over the people of NZ!

Why does Labour not punish some dork for smacking someone else!

Labour is not a court. Why does National want to kill foreigners?

National doesn't want to kill foreigners, how can Labour dictate any form of Law and Order system when they won't follow any laws themselves.
They can't even make the cops go and arrest some maoris blocking access to the odd road (too scared to attract the "Racist" remarks).

National has long supported Amerika's wars of greed and has stated on many occasions that it would send NZ troops to kill and die for Amerikan imperilaism.

Why does Labour only now pull out the Tax Cuts when previously they had adamantly stated they wouldn't be happening! (VOTES).

Actually they ALWAYS said there would be tax cuts, they just delayed them. The really funny thing is that National and it's supporters complain that Labour's offer of tax cuts is a bribe but Nationals offer of tax cuts isn't. Go figure; cognitive dissonance anyone? National thinks were all sucker and it seems they are partly right.

So they've been stealing all our money for the last 8 years or so!!!! Thats nice, I'd love to see some of it back!!!

Stealing your money? Spare me the hysterics please. National will give with one hand and take with the other. User pays benefits the wealthy at the expense of the poor. Social services are a defence against capitalist greed and must be supported from the tax take. Nationals policies will mean less services, bankrupt social policy, increasing crime due to poverty and increases in imprisonment in a nation that already has one of the highest rates in the developed wold. That imprisonment will be mainly of the poor and less empowered, wealthy capitalists will be protected.
User pays in the USA has resulted in 40 million people without adequate health care. It means that insurance costs skyrocket and if you can afford insurance for health, property etc, you'll pay up to $1500 per month for the privilege.

Why does Helen make trips to Waiheke Island?

Who gives a fuck?

I do, why live a LIE

Why judge a person on their personal life instead of the quality of the work they do? Do you really want more Yank style politics here?

Why does Labour do half of the ridiculous shit and get away with it!!!!!!

Because that's what ALL politicians do and National is worse. Watch them shift wealth up the chain and let lower income earners suffer.

Lower income earners earn less for a reason!!!! Its called School and if they had listened to their parents etc they wouldn't be in the position they are! We can't be accountable for other peoples fuckups!!! and why should others who did something useful with their lives have to pander to those that didn't. Under labour everyone is equal hmmmm. like communism!!!

Yawn, the old communism crap again. Please, do yourself a favour and read Marx and Adam Smith then come back and tell me exactly what is communist about Labour.
As for education, under National, apprenticeships basically died. Their idea is that education will be moved toward privatisation and LESS people will be able to access it. That's important of course; capitalism on the world stage depends on open markets that make low paid workers compete against other low paid workers in other countries in order to drive costs down. NZ is in a race to the bottom; under Labour that's slow but under National it will accelerate. National will sell us out to whatever corporations offer the wealthy the best deal.

Because we let the bitch thats why!!!!!

AHA! It's a testosterone thing I see. Why does a female leader upset you so?

A female leader makes no difference to me!!!!
If Labour had a male leader with the same values then I would have called him a bastard!

So why make it an issue?

Vote cleverly this election and change it!!!! and don't vote for a tiny party that won't swing the vote.

Yes, vote cleverly. Investigate the promises and actions of all parties. Don't buy into propaganda. Ask National what their policies actually are (they're keeping them secret for good reason). Think about the sellout of NZ that's gonna happen again under National. Think about a repeat of the odious Employment Contracts Act that drove real income down. Think about Kiwis dying overseas on behalf of foreign capitalism.

The sellout of NZ has already happened mate!

Yes, it started with Douglas, a right wing infiltrator who corrupted Labour and the left to form his extreme right wing party. It continued with National. It will increase under National or a National ACT alliance.

Labour have done it nicely.
They've fucked employers, fucked businesses to the point they have to move overseas.

Actually business income has increased by about 9% since Labour arrived. You should study the facts not listen to the spin. The move overseas is BECAUSE of free trade. BOTH major parties support that and National even more so. To compete under such an open trade system we must meet the same costs as Asian MANUFACTURERS BUT that would mean driving wages down to Asian levels. Labour has at least hedged that with wage protection in minimum wages but National would move to get rid of those or put a moratorium on increases to make it easier for business to compete with Asian factories by offering low wages.

They've fucked the everyday person just trying to get by, sucking too much tax off them for the last 8 years and screwing there education with societies general dumbing down.

And you think National will be better? ROTFLMFAO!!! National will increse the trend.


Labour have been lucky to have the weak USD support them for these past few years, it had to come to an end though.


International exchange rates are a crock of shit and all they do is allow powerful rich countries and corporations to manipulate the money markets in their favour.


And your just fucked off that they will lose the next election!

Am I? I won't vote Labour and haven't for a very long time.

Bleat on as much as you like, get all the anti capitalism quotes you need.
Whether its a National led government or what I don't care, just as long as Labour is out in the gutter where they belong!

So instead of voting FOR a party with good policy, you're voting AGAINST a party because you don't remeber or were too young to know just how bad the other was: figures.

[idleidolidyll]

The rest of KiwiBiker doesn't agree with you... but I guess you'd be used to that by now.

Get a job and a haircut and stop being a burden to hardworking NZers.

The rest of KB?
You mean the few loudmouths sucked in to Nationals bullshit? The pms and ratings I've received seem to show you're in fantasyland.

[idleidolidyll]

Like most uneducated people, you don't seem to understand that one can embrace Capitalism and be patriotic to your home land. However, you do raise a good point in that I am not very patriotic as far as NZ goes. I used to be, but I just don't take the place seriously anymore.

Actually as the lastest poll on the extra tax take shows, educated people support MORE social spending by a factor of 2.

Less educated people overwhelmingly support tax cuts but even then they are outnumbered by the former 48% to 35%.

Education is not just being sucked in by propaganda finn, it's about having the intelligence to do your own research and to recognise bullshit when you see it. Oh look, there's some in your post.
That said, I have a better education than most Kiwis and I suspect that inclused you.

[Pixie]

Ahh, THAT old hackneyed bullshit. It was clear that corruption ruled the roost and that corruption was overwhelmingly right wing fascism.

Of course,there was never any corruption in the failed and existing socialist republics.
There was some other reason their populations often starved while their leaders wallowed in riches

[idleidolidyll]

Like most uneducated people, you don't seem to understand that one can embrace Capitalism and be patriotic to your home land. However, you do raise a good point in that I am not very patriotic as far as NZ goes. I used to be, but I just don't take the place seriously anymore.

Capitalism is a system where the rich few control the rest of the population. Educated people recognise the bullshit offered and the fascism inherent in the system.
Effectivelly, capitalism is a philosophy of greed and power and it's only real beneficiaries are those who control the game: capitalists. The rest are mere pawns living off scraps and bludgeoned with corporate media bullshit.
Given the opportunity to make extra money, capitalkists will turn on their countries in an instant (look at Fay and Richwhite for instance)

[idleidolidyll]

Of course,there was never any corruption in the failed and existing socialist republics.
There was some other reason their populations often starved while their leaders wallowed in riches

Oh please, tell me more. WHICH socialist republics? You don't mean the Dictatorship communist governments that SAID they were socialist but whose actions showed they were no such thing do you?

Luckily, some people are able to see through propaganda and judge governments and leaders based on their actions rather than their words.

BTW: If I say I'm the King Of NZ will you grovel at my feet? A belief that the USSR under Stalin or China under Mao were 'socialist' is pretty much the same thing.

[Finn]

Capitalism is a system where the rich few control the rest of the population. Educated people recognise the bullshit offered and the fascism inherent in the system.
Effectivelly, capitalism is a philosophy of greed and power and it's only real beneficiaries are those who control the game: capitalists. The rest are mere pawns living off scraps and bludgeoned with corporate media bullshit.
Given the opportunity to make extra money, capitalkists will turn on their countries in an instant (look at Fay and Richwhite for instance)

The only people that dislike Capitalism are mostly people like yourself who haven't achieved much in life and have little money.

You poor, poor person Idle. Here, have a piece of yesterday's bread.

[SimJen]

Why is it then that Labour (socialists) supporters are almost always private Capitalists, with lovely houses and cars!
And the politicians are all happily taking $200,000 a year for doing fuck all and not sharing it with the local homeless!, and taking Tax Payer funded trips to the Rugby world cup etc....
If they were true socialists they would share the wealth....

[idleidolidyll]

Why is it then that Labour (socialists) supporters are almost always private Capitalists, with lovely houses and cars!
And the politicians are all happily taking $200,000 a year for doing fuck all and not sharing it with the local homeless!, and taking Tax Payer funded trips to the Rugby world cup etc....
If they were true socialists they would share the wealth....

Owning property and possessions doesn't make anyone a capitalist.
I've posted the definition of capitalist many times, do I need to do so again?

Are politicians overpaid? Not by international standards. However, ask yourself if the capitalist National party will reduce MP's wages.

[koba]

Surprised so many say national.
Past their tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts, somthings shit so it's the goverments fault they really don't seem to offer alot in real potential.
Im not a huge fan of labour either but they certainly currently seem to offer more.

Shit aint that bad, most of us have jobs and I don't buy into Nationals shitslinging :)

[SimJen]

Surprised so many say national.
Past their tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts, somthings shit so it's the goverments fault they really don't seem to offer alot in real potential.
Im not a huge fan of labour either but they certainly currently seem to offer more.

Shit aint that bad, most of us have jobs and I don't buy into Nationals shitslinging :)

Labour is the king shitslinger, remember them bringing brash's personal life up in parliament!!!! Mallard didn't like it when the tables turned and resorted to his fists! He never even left a mark! what a pussy.
Helen always gets into personal attacks and then cries when someone fires it back!
Whoever these maori "terrorists" were, its a shame they didn't flatten parliament so we could start again! :bash:

[devnull]

Seems like idle is in search of the truth with the intention of placing it under house arrest.

Kiwis, for the first time, now outnumber Brits emigrating to Oz... I wonder why.

This country is way overtaxed - a flat rate tax system would improve things markedly, but every time some form of tax relief discussion comes up, Labour says it'll have to cut cut social services - despite the fact that they now rake in a record high in taxation.

They've turned NZ into a welfare state, where things like pride, patriotism, personal responsibility, have no place. A place where parents are afraid to discipline their kids for fear of state retribution...

We also have state-funded militant separatism - where we, the taxpayer, pick up the tab for radical activists. Doesn't sound like Utopia to me

You only need to look at Sweden to see what happens in a failing socialist bureaucracy. Youth crime out of control, increased regulation as politicians try to band-aid a social cancer created out of failed idealism. And just like here, the blind still don't see that socialism is the problem, not the solution

[idleidolidyll]

Notice the key word "SCHOOL" not "TEACHERS".
I can count how many good teachers I've had on LESS than one hand!
Its up to students to do the work, most teachers teach from books these days with little understanding of what they're actually teaching! Too busy going on tax payer funded courses and strikes to learn anything new!

Dear dear simon; you started off well and spoke on the topic of this thread.
I'm quite happy to continue a discussion with you on that basis but if all you wish to do is offer personal attacks you're only gonna bore me.

So, got anything to offer on the board topic or do you merely wish to play silly games?

[SimJen]

Silly games it is.......anyone else????
Thats all the Internet is isn't it? oh and Porn of course.
:)

[idleidolidyll]

Labour is the king shitslinger, remember them bringing brash's personal life up in parliament!!!! Mallard didn't like it when the tables turned and resorted to his fists! He never even left a mark! what a pussy.
Helen always gets into personal attacks and then cries when someone fires it back!
Whoever these maori "terrorists" were, its a shame they didn't flatten parliament so we could start again! :bash:

Ya think?

Perhaps you should watch Parliment TV sometime.

BTW: If parliment were f'lattened' capitalists would rejoice: real democracy and freedom of speech are abhorrent to them

[idleidolidyll]

Seems like idle is in search of the truth with the intention of placing it under house arrest.

Gosh, how to say nothing in 18 words! Congrats

Kiwis, for the first time, now outnumber Brits emigrating to Oz... I wonder why.

Because successive governments have driven down the real income of Kiwis. National's Employments Contracts Act was the most culpable in that game.

This country is way overtaxed - a flat rate tax system would improve things markedly, but every time some form of tax relief discussion comes up, Labour says it'll have to cut cut social services - despite the fact that they now rake in a record high in taxation.

A flat tax system would place most of the burden on the shoulders of the poor and middle incomed and would push wealth even further toward the already rich.
Of course decreases in tax mean less social services; that's what happened in the USA. Social services were cut and cut and cut and then when it was found that they were needed, they were placed in the hands of corporations (capitalists) who charge MORE than the cost in tax ever was. What's worse, that's pre-tax more.

They've turned NZ into a welfare state, where things like pride, patriotism, personal responsibility, have no place. A place where parents are afraid to discipline their kids for fear of state retribution...

Yawn, jingoisms really don't impress me. That paragraph is pure propaganda trash.
BTW: The anti smacking bill was a Green Party bill not a Labour one.

We also have state-funded militant separatism - where we, the taxpayer, pick up the tab for radical activists. Doesn't sound like Utopia to me

We also have state funded capitalism where far too much influence and power is given to greedy men and women who are more interested in themselves than in the people themselves. Pretty soon, if National gets in, we'll move even closer to Yank style politics where election promises are always bullshit and politicians do the work of the corporates who fund their campaigns.

You only need to look at Sweden to see what happens in a failing socialist bureaucracy. Youth crime out of control, increased regulation as politicians try to band-aid a social cancer created out of failed idealism. And just like here, the blind still don't see that socialism is the problem, not the solution

You only need to look at the USA to see what happens in a failing capitalist bureaucracy. Youth crime out of control, exporting terrorism, slaughtering millions in the name of the almighty dollar, increased regulation as politicians try to siphon more wealth upward to corporates and politicians. And just like here, the blind still don't see that capitalism is the problem, not the solution

[idleidolidyll]

Surprised so many say national.
Past their tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts, somthings shit so it's the goverments fault they really don't seem to offer alot in real potential.
Im not a huge fan of labour either but they certainly currently seem to offer more.

Shit aint that bad, most of us have jobs and I don't buy into Nationals shitslinging :)

I don't actually vote Labour but it's silly to ignore the fact that income has increased both for ordinary people and for businesses under Labour.

National is doing well at the moment but we are nearly a year out from elections and they've offered bugger all concrete policy; just personal attacks and "me tooism"........................kinda like this forum.

[MisterD]

National is doing well at the moment but we are nearly a year out from elections and they've offered bugger all concrete policy;

That's just standard oppposition party behaviour now, ever since one T. Blair first got elected using precisely that tactic.

The hard truth is, opposition parties don't win elections, governments lose them, so when they're in as big a hole as this crowd why not let them keep digging?

[Finn]

I don't actually vote Labour but it's silly to ignore the fact that income has increased both for ordinary people and for businesses under Labour.

What utter bullshit Idle. What the fuck has Labour done to increase income for businesses exactly? If a business succeeds in this shitty market, it's because of good leadership and has NOTHING to do with fucken Helen you dumbarse.

The only reason "ordinary" peoples income has risen marginally (still WAY behind Australia) is because of supply and demand. This is because SO many talented people are leaving this shithole.

What colour is the sky in your little world?

[devnull]

Yep, the US welfare reforms really crashed & burned...



In the USA, when they woke up to how career welfare mothers were blighting the lives of their children in order stay on benefits, the Government changed the system. Their welfare reform programme, signed into law in 1996 by Democratic President Bill Clinton, aimed to ‘abolish welfare as we know it’. The key intent was to get welfare mothers off benefits and into mainstream life. They required sole parent beneficiaries to undertake work, training or community service activities for a minimum of 30 hours a week. In order to create a sense of urgency, they introduced time limits of two years for the continuous receipt of welfare and five years over a lifetime. They also paid the benefit at a set rate irrespective of the number of children, to discourage women from having more children just to make more money.

Essentially these reforms replaced their equivalent of our Domestic Purposes Benefit, which provides open-ended income support, with a programme which gave temporary assistance conditional on work. A life-raft of support services such as child care, transport help, relocation assistance and financial planning advice, were also provided. The single purpose of these benefits was to remove the barriers to employment and ease these beneficiaries into jobs.

The results were remarkable. The welfare caseload fell by 60% from 5 million to 2 million families as welfare mothers found work. The biggest improvement by far was among women who had never been married. Overall, by 2002 the poverty rate amongst black children and sole parents fell to their lowest levels in US history, with 2.6 million fewer adults and 2.8 million fewer children living in poverty than six years earlier.

[idleidolidyll]

That's just standard oppposition party behaviour now, ever since one T. Blair first got elected using precisely that tactic.

The hard truth is, opposition parties don't win elections, governments lose them, so when they're in as big a hole as this crowd why not let them keep digging?

sadly you're right and that's a valid condemnation of the state of political awareness and education in the West

regardless of who the victor might be, they will be elected more through ignorance and belief in spin than on real actions and policies

[rainman]

Left wing voters start off voting for what their school teachers brain wash them about.

As they gain real life experience/intelligence they start to think for themselves and they move more to the right!

Those that remain loyal to the left are victims of the boiled frog syndrome. :confused:

Those that move to the right are free thinkers! :ride: Cheers, John.

Hmmm, not so sure, John. My teachers were pretty right-wing, and I moved right as I got older, but then moved back to the left as I grew up and began to think more about the world, the future my kids will have, and the needs of other people. I like to think this is a standard mental progression - as we get older we're less self-obsessed? Personally I'm disappointed in the attitude of the (libertarian) right in NZ. There's a particularly nasty "survival of the fittest" streak to many (not all) righties that doesn't take much scratching to expose.


The only people that dislike Capitalism are mostly people like yourself who haven't achieved much in life and have little money.

Sorry, no. I dislike capitalism (well, I don't think it's structurally fair, mature, or inherently sustainable) but I have achieved a fair deal, have a high-paying job by NZ standards, and am quite rich enough (well, I could always have more, but I'd only go spend it on motorcycles and other stuff I don't need....)

[Finn]

Sorry, no. I dislike capitalism (well, I don't think it's structurally fair, mature, or inherently sustainable) but I have achieved a fair deal, have a high-paying job by NZ standards, and am quite rich enough (well, I could always have more, but I'd only go spend it on motorcycles and other stuff I don't need....)

Well, you are the rainman after all. Still, you're an excellent driver so you have something to be proud of.

[Usarka]

There's a particularly nasty "survival of the fittest" streak to many (not all) righties that doesn't take much scratching to expose.


as opposed to the survival of the laziest....

[rainman]

Well, you are the rainman after all. Still, you're an excellent driver so you have something to be proud of.

Witty :)

But my nickname is actually unrelated to the movie...

[Skyryder]

Left wing voters start off voting for what their school teachers brain wash them about.

As they gain real life experience/intelligence they start to think for themselves and they move more to the right!

(The adage: Those that can, do! Those that can't, teach! Springs to mind)

Those that remain loyal to the left are victims of the boiled frog syndrome. :confused:

Those that move to the right are free thinkers! :ride: Cheers, John.


1 Same could be said or those that attend private schools. :zzzz:

2 Many that 'can' make terrible teachers. In reality there is no comparisons. :nono:

3 The French are renowned for their cuisine so it's not a bad analogy. :love:

4 Bollocks. They charge for their knowledge. Nothing free about the right. :done:


Skyyrder :first:

[NighthawkNZ]

It doesn't matter who you vote for... A politican gets in :doh:

[MSTRS]

The poll speaks for itself. Most of 'us' are ready to see the back of the bullshit that is currently jerking our (purse)strings....time will tell whether a change will be good for NZ.

[Sanx]

Quotes?
I got a million of em:

"There seems to be nothing to prevent the transnational corporations taking possession of the planet and subjecting humanity to the dictatorship of capital.... In order to crush any thought of organized resistance to the supporters of the new world order, tremendous police and military forces are being used to establish a doctrine of repression...."

— Christian la Brie
Le Monde Diplomatique
Paris

And in other news:

Elvis found alive and well in a chip shop in Whakatane
JFK assassinated by the FBI. We show you the proof!
Inside Diana's last moments. How Prince Philip and MI5 had her silenced.
Neil Armstrong reveals moon landings were a fake.
We reveal the shadowy fingerprint of Mossad behind the 9/11.
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. We exclusively publish the sequel.


These threads are getting to be like conversations with religious fundamentalists. On one side, you have the majority of respondents. On the other, you have III. It goes a bit like this:

Majority: Reasoned argument. Small factoid in support of argument. Quote to re-inforce point.
III: YAAAWWWWN! Right-wing media distort truth. Capitalism evil. Corporations evil. Media evil. Government evil, apart from the form of government and policies that I like, but I'm not going to expound them 'cos then I'd actually have to provide a fact.
Majority: But no. Another statement of fact. More reasoning. More presentation of quotes and facts.
III: ROTFLMFAO!!!!!! Media puppets! Corporate slaves! The truth is out there but you're all blinded by corporate propoganda.

A sure fire way of winning an argument is to state something that is so preposterous that trying to counter becomes an exercise in futility. It's a trick religious fundamentalists have used for years. I'm sure some of them actually believe it but it goes to show how similar, in many respects, religion and politics are. The more fundamental the belief, the less open one becomes to reason, logic, evidence and simple common sense.

So, III, why don't you actually explain what political system you support, what this involves and what policies / governance you'd like to see implemented in your ideal world. And try and do it without resorting to negative comments about existing politicians, parties or governments. I'm sure some of use would really like to see a clearly set-out list of III's policitcal beliefs.

[MSTRS]

I'm sure some of use would really like to see a clearly set-out list of III's policitcal beliefs.

Not really.

[hospitalfood]

fuck....just checked this post and I'm shocked by the amount of votes Nat is getting.
Labour myself, even though I would have more money with Nat I think the country as a whole would be worse off. Poor people poorer ( thats most of the country ) and the usual increase in crime ( about 30% ) that happens when Nat gets in.
Did not realise there are so many right wing voters on this site.
Shocked. thought I was in good company.

[Indiana_Jones]

<img src="http://www.digitallogistics.co.nz/rodney-hide.jpg">

ACT IS BACK!

-Indy

[rainman]

The poll speaks for itself. Most of 'us' are ready to see the back of the bullshit that is currently jerking our (purse)strings....time will tell whether a change will be good for NZ.

Unfortunately as others have pointed out, the poll will be a vote against, not a vote for. Not to say Labour doesn't deserve a (small) kick in the pants, but the decision is more important than the degree of consideration it'll be given, I suspect ("Tax cuts, tax cuts....!!!").

Personally I'd be happy with an outcome where one of the "necessary evil" parties (Labour/National) has their influence strongly moderated in coalition with the smaller parties, but from where I sit it looks like we'll do the silly thing and vote National in with a vengeance, then spend the next few years pissing around unwinding policy on idealogical grounds... then fixing the cock-ups that that causes... then muddling along for a bit more, and being ready to chuck them out in a term or two. Pointless really.

[MSTRS]

... being ready to chuck them out in a term or two. Pointless really.

Come on. 3 terms for parity...

[rainman]

Come on. 3 terms for parity...

Naah, they'll cock things up quicker than that.

[MSTRS]

Naah, they'll cock things up quicker than that.

And the difference is...? Gotta give 'em a chance to get it working 'right' (pun not intended). Isn't that the only reason Labour stayed in for 3 terms? That, and bribery.

[Wolf]

Come on. 3 terms for parity...

Nah, two terms is as much National bullshit anyone can stand and then they remember why they were voted out to begin with.

Round up Labour and National party members, stick 'em in prison where they all belong - as traitors to the people of New Zealand.

[owner]

politics. HA HA. never voted never will. It doesnt make any difference to me who me gets in. work ride work ride work ride

[devnull]

politics. HA HA. never voted never will. It doesnt make any difference to me who me gets in. work ride work ride work ride

:niceone:

Don't vote for them... it only encourages the bastards

[Usarka]

and the usual increase in crime ( about 30% ) that happens when Nat gets in.

The numbers of violent crimes has been increasing since labour got into power. They just say that its because more people are reporting it.

[rainman]

And the difference is...?

Between Labour and National? Not that much, they're both trouble if unrestrained.


Isn't that the only reason Labour stayed in for 3 terms? That, and bribery.

Bribery? They bribed people to vote for them? How come I didn't get any?

[Finn]

fuck....just checked this post and I'm shocked by the amount of votes Nat is getting.
Labour myself, even though I would have more money with Nat I think the country as a whole would be worse off. Poor people poorer ( thats most of the country ) and the usual increase in crime ( about 30% ) that happens when Nat gets in.
Did not realise there are so many right wing voters on this site.
Shocked. thought I was in good company.

You might feel better if you try pulling your head out of that smelly dark place. Next time you post, please try and bring a thought of your very own. Try it.

[MSTRS]

Bribery? They bribed people to vote for them? How come I didn't get any?

I believe the difference in votes can be put down to the students and/or parents of students who got their student loan conditions well eased. Oh, and the LiarCullen hinting that tax cuts would be in the next budget.
Labour Buys Votes.

[Magua]

Labour Buys Votes.

And national doesn't?

What's national's policy on the interest free student loans?

[rainman]

I believe the difference in votes can be put down to the students and/or parents of students who got their student loan conditions well eased. Oh, and the LiarCullen hinting that tax cuts would be in the next budget.
Labour Buys Votes.

Quite unlike "tax cuts" National, of course.

Cullen's a pol - so calling him a liar is redundant - no need to be mean, though. Come on, he's at least witty in the house.

[MSTRS]

Cullen's.... at least witty in the house.

:no: him. witty. not even au

[SPman]

If a business succeeds in this shitty market, it's because of good leadership and has NOTHING to do with fucken Helen you dumbarse.

The only reason "ordinary" peoples income has risen marginally (still WAY behind Australia) is because of supply and demand. This is because SO many talented people are leaving this shithole.

What colour is the sky in your little world?

Isn't that the way it should be - you want to see more businesses with crap leaders supported because of public policy - sounds like a communist policy to me.......

Costs in Oz are higher, so the wages should be higher. After 18 months here I've just matched what I was getting in NZ!



A beautiful clear blue, with the odd wispy cloud......(just answered that one coz the sky is so nice...)

[Wolf]

I'm surprised, given the number of people on this site who go on about the "nanny state" and how we can't defend ourselves from the crims, the amount of support both National and Labour are getting in this poll.

Both of them are die-hard proponents of the Nanny State. National's current policies may be a "secret" but their track record of telling the public what they can and cannot do is well known.

They will legislate to control our personal lives every bit as much as Labour and the Greens combined. They will not improve police numbers, priorities or response times. They will not improve the law so you can legally defend yourself or your family against an attacker - in fact, from the wittering that National Party members have done over the years, they are more likely to make it even less legal.

National's laws are simple: For fraud and other monetary crimes that affect Big Business: Hang, draw and quarter. For violent crimes against people: slap on the hand with a wet bus ticket - and that's if the cops ever catch the perp because they're going to have their work cut out for them chasing every brass groat that some grasping multinational corporation thinks it's being cheated of.

I have seen NZ slide further and further into chaos over the years at the hands of both National and Labour. It is high time we binned both of them and got a government that will act in the interests of NZ people.

New Zealand First is not an option. The party members are all just meat-puppets controlled by Winston Peters who has proven himself a liar when it comes to matters of his own self-interest - he'd happily jump in bed with Chairman Mao if it meant a plum role as a cabinet minister with a decent portfolio. Made the mistake of voting for the lying prick once and he repaid me by doing a 180 on his election platform in under three minutes. Tricksy! False! Peters is lying filth and not worth spitting on.

Greens are a pack of drugged out flakes who'd have us living in caves eating mung beans within months. We would have no electricity or even candles due to the 'carbon footprint" and we won't even be able to smack a dog that's biting our kids' throats out because that'd be cruelty to animals.

In keeping with their "Lesbian with no kids dictates parenting law" tactics, their minister of finance will be worse at book-keeping than I am and their energy minister will be researching this cool dream in which he saw all of New Zealand powered by the harmonious energies of (fortunately for us) common quartz. And Sue Bradford will write all the family laws.

Despite the fact I disagree with a number of the Libertarianz Party's policies, I will be voting for them as I agree with enough of their policies to think they'd make a positive difference to New Zealand.

That way, the next time I hear whining in the threads saying "fucking nanny state" and "why can't a man hit a punk who was beating his son into a pulp" - under National's "benevolent" reign, I suspect - I'll be able to say "well, perhaps if you'd put your money where your mouth was and voted for a party that upholds our sovereign rights to personal dignity and responsibility..."

At least I'll trying to get a government that views us as more than a meal ticket.

But then, it's a lot easier to say "fuck taking responsibility for our actions, let's vote for a party that will tell us what to do" - even if that's just to vote another party out.

[Wolf]

Isn't that the way it should be - you want to see more businesses with crap leaders supported because of public policy - sounds like a communist policy to me.......
Ha ha! Excellent.

Labour: Legislate to support most the people at the expense of all but a few businesses (who actually know what the fuck they're doing).

National: Legislate to support most of the businesses at the expense of all but a privileged few people (who will all get knighthoods for upholding the proud tradition of all knights - grinding the peasants beneath their sabatons).

[SPman]

I used to vote Values. Then Progressive Green, (Greens, with a nod towards the realities of life and business).
After that it was into the wilderness. Libertarianz would seem to have something - freedom from everything and the right to starve to death in ill health and penury as a governmental incentive.

Maori party last time coz I liked Pita Sharples outlook on life.........and a vote for the electorate MP who I thought would be best for the electorate, not the government as a whole.

[koba]

Labour is the king shitslinger, remember them bringing brash's personal life up in parliament!!!! Mallard didn't like it when the tables turned and resorted to his fists! He never even left a mark! what a pussy.
Helen always gets into personal attacks and then cries when someone fires it back!
Whoever these maori "terrorists" were, its a shame they didn't flatten parliament so we could start again! :bash:

Never said labour don't shitsling, you're right, they do.
National however dont have much else.
The media love to stir the pot but when I look at the current situation in New Zealand I don't see the fancy buzzwords I see a wee country ticking along ok as it is.
As smaller change to the current government in the next election is probably the best thing to help maintain the period of stability we have enjoyed over the last few years.

I don't care if helen is ugly, or if the police are allowed to round up firearms offenders its much less important than me having a good job with decent pay and the ability to take my bike out in the weekend. :)

[avgas]

No, that's National as in "Fucked if we know what our policies are, we'll do what they do but with tax cuts (but if they offer tax cuts they're 'bribing' you)"
National's a fucking joke
To be honest i think that is the most honest announcement by a party. Its a whole lot better than Labors-Bullshit-Old-wives-tale. Eg "We'll do it next year.....honest"
I have got less excuses from my misses. And she is good at them

[avgas]

I believe the difference in votes can be put down to the students and/or parents of students who got their student loan conditions well eased. Oh, and the LiarCullen hinting that tax cuts would be in the next budget.
Labour Buys Votes.
I have had $10K sitting in a bank account as a running bet that either party will pull out of that soon. Trust a person as far as you can throw them, Trust a party if you are a throwing savant.

[avgas]

Despite the fact I disagree with a number of the Libertarianz Party's policies, I will be voting for them as I agree with enough of their policies to think they'd make a positive difference to New Zealand.

That way, the next time I hear whining in the threads saying "fucking nanny state" and "why can't a man hit a punk who was beating his son into a pulp" - under National's "benevolent" reign, I suspect - I'll be able to say "well, perhaps if you'd put your money where your mouth was and voted for a party that upholds our sovereign rights to personal dignity and responsibility..."

At least I'll trying to get a government that views us as more than a meal ticket.

But then, it's a lot easier to say "fuck taking responsibility for our actions, let's vote for a party that will tell us what to do" - even if that's just to vote another party out.
I used to believe in that, now i just vote to make my life easier. And have wicked thoughts every Nov 5th.............
As far as im concerned now - the government is not required. But if i must vote (i refused to vote for many years....but that protest is a waste)- voting on minor parties is a waste of my time (like pissing in the ocean here).
Tell you what - if they get 5% this time, i will vote for them next.

[Skyryder]

And national doesn't?

What's National's policy on the interest free student loans?

It'll be much the same as Labour. At present all their policies that they have announced are very much in line with Labour's. If they are not John U Turn Keys changes them so that they are.

I've always said that to fuck off the Greens, Act, etc. is that Labour and the Nats form a coalition. I've actually mooted this on the odd occasion at political do's that I occasionaly attend. No one has taken me seriously, yet when I mention this at parties etc most people that have a smattering of political knowledge can see the merits that this would have for the country. While their are differences between Labour and the Nats their thinking in many areas are much the same.

Skyryder

[swbarnett]

Tell you what - if they get 5% this time, i will vote for them next.
And if everyone that thought like that actually voted with their conscience instead of acting like sheep maybe they'd get over the 5%

[Usarka]

Despite the fact I disagree with a number of the Libertarianz Party's policies, I will be voting for them as I agree with enough of their policies to think they'd make a positive difference to New Zealand.

Well you could vote for them haha but you'd be throwing your vote away. It's a two party system!!

http://www.recessmonkey.com/wp-content/uploads/simpsons_plan.jpg

[NighthawkNZ]

Ah just vote for me... pretty sure I could do a better job... and my policies are...

[MisterD]

[QUOTE=Usarka;1282255]. It's a two party system!!

[QUOTE]

It's not a two party system, it's MMP. Where to govern, one of the two major parties has to pander to the policies of some lunatic fringe mob like the Greens or the Mowrees.

[Usarka]

Not unless the majority vote for one party, thus removing a large amount of time currently wasted in pandering to the minority government.

A lot of National voters might prefer to vote another minor party but are voting National for this reason.

btw - it's was a joke....

[Wolf]

It's interesting to note that so far, this poll is tending Authoritarian Right (National) while my poll on the political orientation of KBers is currently tending towards Libertarian Centre/Left.

I invite all those who have voted here to check out my thread and see where your own political views stand.

I wonder how many people have said they would vote National or labour as "a lesser of two evils" as if they are the only parties in NZ and one has to compromise ones values to vote for an "evil".

How many are only voting for Labour or National "to keep the other one out"?

How many here - aside from those of us who have marked something other than National or Labour - have actually read the policies of the other parties?

How many here are thinking humans and how many are sheeple who vote the way their mummy/daddy did or because they've "gotta keep/get those National/Labour bastards out of office"?

It is said that "we get the government we deserve" - and so long as people in a Mixed Member Proportional voting system still keep thinking in terms of two parties and fearing coalition governments (which under FPP was a Bad Thing - mummy said so) and fearing to vote for anyone but the big two - like most of the retarded sheeple in this country have done for the last few elections (based on the election results and the weeping and moaning about coalitions by the average retard in the street), so long as NZers are unthinking creatures of habit, we will get the useless thieving pack of mongrels in power that we deserve.

I'm beginning to think NZers deserve no better than a Nanny State, for all they moan about it.

The near-universal whinging and bitching suggests people want less government interference in our lives but in reality that would be too scary and it's safer to continue voting for the Authoritarian (in your workplace, in your home, in your bedroom) pack of self-serving proponents of the Nanny State.

That way you've got what is familiar and safe and you can settle down to the familiar pattern of being fucked up the arse by National/Labour and whinging about the "Nanny State" or make plans to fuck off to Australia/Canada/Istanbul.

Gods forbid that we as a country should actually vote for someone else.

[Usarka]

Maybe there are just some Libertarianz policies that don't go down to well:

eg:

American style healthcare, you can't afford - you die.
No welfare for those *genuinely* in need.
Open immigration as long as immigrants dont try to claim welfare. (I guess crime is a good way to get an income)

[Wolf]

Well you could vote for them haha but you'd be throwing your vote away. It's a two party system!!

Baaaa baaaa!

No point trying to change anything, might have to think for ourselves, better to stick with what we know - let Labour tell us how to run our home lives and National tell us how frequently to suck corporate cock.

Attitudes like yours will ensure New Zealand never gets a government that represents the wishes of the people. You and all the other "pointless trying to make a change.

No point really having a VOTING system for the people, really, it'd be a lot simpler and cheaper if Labour and National just took turns or tossed a coin every 4 years.

Why-oh-fucking-why did so many people strive to get out from under Monarchies and Dictatorships, why did so may women crusade to get the vote, why did they waste their time trying to give power to the people?

Do us a favour, Usarka: DON'T VOTE.

[Wolf]

Maybe there are just some Libertarianz policies that don't go down to well:

eg:

American style healthcare, you can't afford - you die.
No welfare for those *genuinely* in need.
Open immigration as long as immigrants dont try to claim welfare. (I guess crime is a good way to get an income)

I did say I don't agree with all their policies.

How about:
less government control of our lives
revamped legal system
the right to self defence
and (though this'll mean people will have to think for themselves rather than waiting for National and Labour to tell them what to do) Responsibility for ones own actions.

So you don't like the Libertarianz, good for you, how about researching the other parties and seeing if they are more to your liking than saying "It's gotta be National or Labour"

[Trudes]

Possibly the main problem in NZ is that politics (in a broad sense) and how the Government is made is not taught in schools and the majority of NZers don't actually know a lot about the whole process and what exactly they are voting for.
Personally, I never knew a lot about it until I had to do a couple of compulsory papers at Uni about politics and policy. Some of it still confuses the crap out of me, but I feel I have a better understanding of what I'm voting for and how my vote will be counted etc. I wonder how many other people out there really have no idea what they're voting for and just vote Labour or National purely on what they see on the news, or "Helen Clarke is an ugly old bat". Is it up to the individual to learn about politics/Government, or should it be something that is taught? Perhaps if it was, people may be more educated about the whole thing and not blindly vote. JMO.

[Pixie]

Baaaa baaaa!

No point trying to change anything, might have to think for ourselves, better to stick with what we know - let Labour tell us how to run our home lives and National tell us how frequently to suck corporate cock.

Attitudes like yours will ensure New Zealand never gets a government that represents the wishes of the people. You and all the other "pointless trying to make a change.

No point really having a VOTING system for the people, really, it'd be a lot simpler and cheaper if Labour and National just took turns or tossed a coin every 4 years.

Why-oh-fucking-why did so many people strive to get out from under Monarchies and Dictatorships, why did so may women crusade to get the vote, why did they waste their time trying to give power to the people?

Do us a favour, Usarka: DON'T VOTE.
This is all pointless.
Recent research indicates that most of the time most humans make any decision on an unconscious level,that is,by the same brain structures that reptiles and slimy little invertibrates use.Then the conscious mind comes along 0.5 to 1 second later and creates a delusion that it was a conscious well thought out descision.

So expecting voters to consider carefully how they vote is pointless.

[Wolf]

Is it up to the individual to learn about politics/Government, or should it be something that is taught? Perhaps if it was, people may be more educated about the whole thing and not blindly vote. JMO.
Ahh. Well, my standard answer has to be that it is the responsibility of the individual to learn and make a considered choice but - as that's never going to happen with the 3 million or so 2-legged sheep in this country - it might be best if political theory were made a compulsory school subject.

It'll never happen though, as the major parties would never make compulsory any subject that would let the average New Zealander come to the realisation that the major parties are full of shit and are deliberately raping the populace.

[Wolf]

This is all pointless.
Recent research indicates that most of the time most humans make any decision on an unconscious level,that is,by the same brain structures that reptiles and slimy little invertibrates use.Then the conscious mind comes along 0.5 to 1 second later and creates a delusion that it was a conscious well thought out descision.

So expecting voters to consider carefully how they vote is pointless.
Most likely right, there, unfortunately.

For myself I would rather vote based on the closest match to my politics in the vain hope that if everyone did that we'd get a government that closer matched the needs of our people.

I don't agree with all the Libertarianz party's policies but there are a lot I do agree with.

If everyone looked at the various parties and did the same as I'm doing we'd probably end up with a mixed-party government that would better reflect the people of NZ and hopefully the parties would temper each other's more extreme policies into something reasonable.

That's a pipe dream, I know, but personally I would rather vote based on my ideals and conscience than waste my vote on a "lesser evil".

[SPman]

It'll be much the same as Labour. At present all their policies that they have announced are very much in line with Labour's. If they are not John U Turn Keys changes them so that they are.

I've always said that to fuck off the Greens, Act, etc. is that Labour and the Nats form a coalition. I've actually mooted this on the odd occasion at political do's that I occasionaly attend. No one has taken me seriously, yet when I mention this at parties etc most people that have a smattering of political knowledge can see the merits that this would have for the country. While their are differences between Labour and the Nats their thinking in many areas are much the same.

Skyryder
The lines are getting more and more blurred. They've just colluded to vote down Keith Lockes amendment to the terrorism (god - I hate that word) suppression bill, which would ensure the bill could not be applied to peaceful protests!
It is difficult to see this as anything other than the two major parties and their authoritarian hangers-on voting to explicitly criminalise political dissent and suppress human rights in this country, yet, according to half the proles on here, the Greens, Maoris, etc, are loony hangers on who shouldn't be tolerated and do nothing!
At least they try and stand up for basic human rights and provide some voice against the main stream mediocrity, that is most peoples pocket based choice!
.

[SPman]

Ahh. Well, my standard answer has to be that it is the responsibility of the individual to learn and make a considered choice but - as that's never going to happen with the 3 million or so 2-legged sheep in this country - it might be best if political theory were made a compulsory school subject.

It'll never happen though, as the major parties would never make compulsory any subject that would let the average New Zealander come to the realisation that the major parties are full of shit and are deliberately raping the populace.
"spread more bling before etc......"

"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion"
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -Thomas Jefferson<o></o>

[idleidolidyll]

These threads are getting to be like conversations with drooling idiots. On one side, you have the few loudmouths with big opinions and fuck all knowledge. On the other, you have III and a few intelligent souls not yet bored with hilarious yokels from the boondocks. It goes a bit like this:

Drooling Idiots: Garbled bullshit. Fuck all in support of argument. Barely any references at all.
III: YAAAWWWWN! Opinions backed with references and quotations from well known authors, presidents and leaders and further supported with references to websites and government inquiries.
Drooling Idiots: More garbled semi literate junk without reference to authoritative sources. Frustration at inability to counter logical arguments presented by III usually results in childish ad hominem.
III: ROTFLMFAO!!!!!! More opinions backed with more references and topped off with a slice of mirth at the inability of opposition to construct coherent arguments or even understand the terminology they throw around with gay abandon.

So, III, given that has already explained what political system he supports, what this involves and what policies / governance he'd like to see implemented in the ideal world; when will these drooling monkeys actually post something intelligent and reality based instead of just regurgitate propaganda? Unlike his opposition though, III doesn't need to do it by resorting to mindless negative comments about existing politicians, parties or governments. I'm sure some of you would like to see some logical debate without the silly propaganda promoted by so many; I know I would

[Finn]

Idle is just upset cause his stupid party is running low in the polls.

[idleidolidyll]

Idle is just upset cause his stupid party is running low in the polls.

Finn's just upset because he has no idea who 'my' party is.

But it's hilarious watching him try to fit his foot in his mouth

[Wolf]

The lines are getting more and more blurred. They've just colluded to vote down Keith Lockes amendment to the terrorism (god - I hate that word) suppression bill, which would ensure the bill could not be applied to peaceful protests!
It is difficult to see this as anything other than the two major parties and their authoritarian hangers-on voting to explicitly criminalise political dissent and suppress human rights in this country, yet, according to half the proles on here, the Greens, Maoris, etc, are loony hangers on who shouldn't be tolerated and do nothing!
At least they try and stand up for basic human rights and provide some voice against the main stream mediocrity, that is most peoples pocket based choice!
.
But but but we're all going to be rescued by a National Government who will abolish speed cameras and ACC-driven ticket quotas, repeal the Anti-smacking Bill, remove the hidden legislation that is responsible for it raining for three days out of every 5 and everyone in New Zealand will be happy an free again - just like Good King Richard the Lionhearted was going to save England from Evil Prince John Lackland...

:devil2:

[Finn]

Finn's just upset because he has no idea who 'my' party is.

But it's hilarious watching him try to fit his foot in his mouth

You voted for the Greens in this poll. I presumed that's who you support.

[Sanx]

Drooling Idiots: Garbled bullshit. Fuck all in support of argument. Barely any references at all.

No, barely any references you choose to accept, as you think there's a global media conspiracy going on somewhere.


III: YAAAWWWWN! Opinions backed with references and quotations from well known authors, presidents and leaders and further supported with references to websites and government inquiries.

A few quotations (with no citations, incidentally) and again, links to certain documents that happen to support your view. Statistics can be manipulated in just about any way and used to support any viewpoint, if you work hard enough. As I'm sure you know. And I've also noticed a remarkable tendency to ignore posts that simply blow your arguments out of the water. You've done it a couple of times to me; ridiculed my response using verifiably incorrect statistics or accusations and then when these are refuted (with references), you simply clam up. No response. No come-back. Just utter silence.


Drooling Idiots: More garbled semi literate junk without reference to authoritative sources. Frustration at inability to counter logical arguments presented by III usually results in childish ad hominem.

Argumenti ad hominem, actually. Ad hominem is an adjective, not a noun. And as your sentence used it in the plural, you'd have to suffix hominem with something else - but my Latin was forgotten a very long time ago. Just pointed out as you seem to take great pleasure in correcting others' use of terminology (now matter how invalid the correction may be). But I suppose I just proved your point.


III: ROTFLMFAO!!!!!! More opinions backed with more references and topped off with a slice of mirth at the inability of opposition to construct coherent arguments or even understand the terminology they throw around with gay abandon.

Again, the "understand the terminology they throw around with gay abandon" bit I really find laughable. Your meaning of particular words seem to be markedly different to other people's, yet apparently you claim to be the authoritative source. When this was pointed out to you, you simply lapsed into your usual catch-all argument (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1251795&postcount=573) - global corporate / media conspiracy - to explain why your version of certain terms was different. Apparently, "various interest groups OWN the organisations doing the defining and the definitions are often slanted toward THEIR opinions". There is just no coherent response to such utter tripe.

As for your claim to include references, you are demonstrably talking out of your arse. Unless that is, that the Mods, SpankMe and KB are also part of the global media / corporate conspiracy and have been carefully deleting them from the majority of your posts as they go along. Sure, you posted some website references about the Dame Magaret Beazley's Report of the Commission of Inquiry into Police Conduct, and a few links to mainly editorial pieces on globalpolicy.org; a rabidly left-wing media outlet but one, obviously, as yet unsullied by the global media conspiracy. You also provided an editorial from the NZ Herald, without caring to mention you'd cut it. Your post here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1280508&postcount=763), original here (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10473758). (The fact that you quoted the NZ Herald is in itself remarkable, as you questioned the veracity of an article I linked to from the Herald saying that media shouldn't be trusted.) You've also provided a couple of uncited quotes. Yes, I can find Google references to them as well, but I'm never sure who to believe, as there's this global media conspiracy. You might have heard of it.

These few aside, what you post is pure opinion. For instance, you state that the "lastest (sic) poll on the extra tax take shows, educated people support MORE social spending by a factor of 2" without actually referring to what poll you're talking about. And why would you believe polls anyway? Aren't they carried out by global media corporations?

I used to be quite interested in these threads, but your presence within them has simply resulted in the thread's rapid deterioration into rabid dribble. I've had more reasoned conversations with Hassidic Jews and born-again Christians.

[avgas]

These threads are getting to be like conversations with drooling idiots. On one side, you have the few loudmouths with big opinions and fuck all knowledge.
Do you actually type this.....or does the bullshit come naturally?

[avgas]

And if everyone that thought like that actually voted with their conscience instead of acting like sheep maybe they'd get over the 5%
Statistically speaking......no.
20% of people didn't vote last time - and that fell on deaf ears.
While i do agree with the concept - making the whole of NZ realize it is like moving sand off a beach.

[Colapop]

United Future - coz no one else had voted for them... :bleh: (it's a sympathy vote)

[Wolf]

United Future - coz no one else had voted for them... :bleh: (it's a sympathy vote)

But, like a sympathy fuck, largely unsatisfying for the giver and seldom truly appreciated by the receiver...

[Colapop]

HAVE SEEN PETER DUNNE???? (Hmmm me too... :sick:)

[Robert Taylor]

Certainly not that Labour leader that looks like a 'double happy' has gone off in her mouth...... Gaz.

Except on the ''misrepresentation'' of election billboards. I will be voting National as the ''lesser of the evils'' but frankly I hanker for a system that isnt a lolly scramble for re-election every 3 years.

- restore the fpp voting system

- a properly defended country with a proper Air Force

- low taxes, no thieving levies

- less mp's

-arrest and reverse local government empire building and agendas subservient to central government dogma

-immigration of skilled people only, skills that we need

- restoration of capital punishment, death penalty for drug trafficking

- rebuild the police so they are purged of corruption and earn respect, actually give them teeth.

- less civil liberty and instil greater personal discipline

-less civil servants and all the taxpayer funded junkets that go with it

-compulsory military training for EVERY school leaver

- less embracement of the free market

-less reliance on foreign bankers

- higher pay rates, enabled in part by lower taxes and more incentive to work

- nuclear power solving at a stroke the usually ugly environmental impact of wind farms and hydro dams

- de-politicise the education system so our young can make their own judgements. Bolster the education system with a return to the core basics and adequate funding

- less political funding of comprehensive failures such as our rugby team and yachting.

- rebuild the health system that Labour has comprehensively turned into a basket case

- a system that favours exports more so than imports, stop parrallell importing

- de-centralise industry to releive pressure on Auckland, already bursting at the seams

- ensure that roading doesnt get upgraded to too high standards, so ensuring healthy aftermarket suspension sales!!!

-a big purge to rid the system of corruption at all ends of the scale

- no separatism, embrace the concept ''we are all New Zealanders''

- self reliance via a system that enables it and allows everyone equality of opportunity. State reliance as a safety net, NOT a lifestyle choice

SELF RELIANCE BUT WITH COMPASSION. ETC ETC...

[Robert Taylor]

Like most uneducated people, you don't seem to understand that one can embrace Capitalism and be patriotic to your home land. However, you do raise a good point in that I am not very patriotic as far as NZ goes. I used to be, but I just don't take the place seriously anymore.

Finn, in all fairness uneducated was a poor choice of word, indoctrinated would have been more appropriate. Combine that with legalisation of smoking mind altering substances via the Greens. Then we can all smoke it and pretend everythings alllllllright...........

[Wolf]

restore the fpp voting system

So you advocate turning it back into a simplistic 2-party system, National vs Labour, no other parties get a look in and no representation for anyone who is not an Authoritarian Right-winger. Because those are the only choices under FPP because all the 'tards think it's gotta be one or t'other.


less civil liberty and instil greater personal discipline

-compulsory military training for EVERY school leaver

- less embracement of the free market

Authoritarian twaddle. CMT and abolishing civil liberties are great if you want to control the masses. As to removing the free market - and I'm sure even Finn would agree - if the business cannot compete and make it's own way against the competition, fuck it, it deserves to go under.


de-politicise the education system so our young can make their own judgements. Bolster the education system with a return to the core basics and adequate funding

- self reliance via a system that enables it and allows everyone equality of opportunity. State reliance as a safety net, NOT a lifestyle choice

Now that seems to contradict your "No civil liberties", "shove everyone into the army", "abolish free trade" crap.

Self-reliance cannot be had when you've removed free trade and mollycoddled businesses, it cannot be had by people blindly toeing the line, it cannot be had without liberty.

Interested to see what "apolitical" education system you propose that will make people "freely" choose your Authoritarian "no civil liberties, get ready to go into the armed forces when you leave here" political system.

Personally, I'd like to see MMP come up with a proper mixed-member parliament with a Libertarian basis and their more extreme policies (read "the ones I personally don't agree with") tempered/blocked by other parties.

[Robert Taylor]

So you advocate turning it back into a simplistic 2-party system, National vs Labour, no other parties get a look in and no representation for anyone who is not an Authoritarian Right-winger. Because those are the only choices under FPP because all the 'tards think it's gotta be one or t'other.



Authoritarian twaddle. CMT and abolishing civil liberties are great if you want to control the masses. As to removing the free market - and I'm sure even Finn would agree - if the business cannot compete and make it's own way against the competition, fuck it, it deserves to go under.



Now that seems to contradict your "No civil liberties", "shove everyone into the army", "abolish free trade" crap.

Self-reliance cannot be had when you've removed free trade and mollycoddled businesses, it cannot be had by people blindly toeing the line, it cannot be had without liberty.

Interested to see what "apolitical" education system you propose that will make people "freely" choose your Authoritarian "no civil liberties, get ready to go into the armed forces when you leave here" political system.

Personally, I'd like to see MMP come up with a proper mixed-member parliament with a Libertarian basis and their more extreme policies (read "the ones I personally don't agree with") tempered/blocked by other parties.

I make no apologies for the seeming contradictions, perhaps its an acknowlegement that there are faults in every type of system.

Totally open free trade demonstrably has its excesses e.g filling up a container with cheap Chinese minibikes with metallurgy akin to the composition of weetbix. Flogging them off and offering no back up. Wrong, wrong, wrong...Note that I DID NOT advocate abolishing free trade, tempering it from the excesses makes sense.

And instilling some much needed discipline and self respect into the populace does not neccessarily( nor should it ) mean control. Such intent has in fact been practiced most by left wing regimes.

As for reinstalling fpp, anything that keeps the Nandor Dopeheads, Sue Bashfords and Keith pacifist Lockes out of Parliament is a good thing.

But it is all a pipe dream because what really needs to be done in this country is in fact an unelectable agenda.

[necrolyte]

I would vote for Mr. Taylor, but i'm for National if only to get Labour out of there!

[Wolf]

And instilling some much needed discipline and self respect into the populace does not neccessarily( nor should it ) mean control. Such intent has in fact been practiced most by left wing regimes.
Miliarism and Authoritarianism are not limited to left or right wing. For exmple, Hitler was centrist and he had "great" education for the kiddies - they even got their own uniforms and special knives with mottoes etched on the blades.

Self respect is not taught by the military, only discipline and obedience to the chain of command...

At the top of which are the retarded politicians themselves.

[idleidolidyll]

No, barely any references you choose to accept, as you think there's a global media conspiracy going on somewhere.

barely a reference at all from you and your kind; it's fucking hilarious actually; you seem to think your opinion is worth more than my quotes from govt sites, political commentary sites, direct quotes from leaders and military types....funny as hell


A few quotations (with no citations, incidentally) and again, links to certain documents that happen to support your view. Statistics can be manipulated in just about any way and used to support any viewpoint, if you work hard enough. As I'm sure you know. And I've also noticed a remarkable tendency to ignore posts that simply blow your arguments out of the water. You've done it a couple of times to me; ridiculed my response using verifiably incorrect statistics or accusations and then when these are refuted (with references), you simply clam up. No response. No come-back. Just utter silence.

actually i've posted way more links than anyone i've debated with here. recently those have been from the NZ Govt, scoop, the Herald, international political sites and more as well as a bunch of referenced quotes from ex presidents and military leaders. In return i've got fuck all from you and yours.
again, you're fucking hilarious
BTW: I don't ignore posts but pray tell, do you really think you count for much in my world? I often get 50 replies in a day and when I come back after 3-5 days, I'm not particularly interested in trolling through to find some you are peeved about because you THINK you've been ignored; you're just not that special.

Argumenti ad hominem, actually. Ad hominem is an adjective, not a noun. And as your sentence used it in the plural, you'd have to suffix hominem with something else - but my Latin was forgotten a very long time ago. Just pointed out as you seem to take great pleasure in correcting others' use of terminology (now matter how invalid the correction may be). But I suppose I just proved your point.

yawn, who gives a rats arse?

Again, the "understand the terminology they throw around with gay abandon" bit I really find laughable. Your meaning of particular words seem to be markedly different to other people's, yet apparently you claim to be the authoritative source. When this was pointed out to you, you simply lapsed into your usual catch-all argument (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1251795&postcount=573) - global corporate / media conspiracy - to explain why your version of certain terms was different. Apparently, "various interest groups OWN the organisations doing the defining and the definitions are often slanted toward THEIR opinions". There is just no coherent response to such utter tripe.

It aint MY meaning sonny, it's definition from sources quoted rather than from ignorance and propaganda. I DON'T claim to BE the authoritative source, I claim to post from authoritative sources; see if you can get your head around THAT English.
BTW: The corporate media is hardly a myth and ig you were to do a bit of reading you might learn something.

As for your claim to include references, you are demonstrably talking out of your arse. Unless that is, that the Mods, SpankMe and KB are also part of the global media / corporate conspiracy and have been carefully deleting them from the majority of your posts as they go along. Sure, you posted some website references about the Dame Magaret Beazley's Report of the Commission of Inquiry into Police Conduct, and a few links to mainly editorial pieces on globalpolicy.org; a rabidly left-wing media outlet but one, obviously, as yet unsullied by the global media conspiracy. You also provided an editorial from the NZ Herald, without caring to mention you'd cut it. Your post here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1280508&postcount=763), original here (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10473758). (The fact that you quoted the NZ Herald is in itself remarkable, as you questioned the veracity of an article I linked to from the Herald saying that media shouldn't be trusted.) You've also provided a couple of uncited quotes. Yes, I can find Google references to them as well, but I'm never sure who to believe, as there's this global media conspiracy. You might have heard of it.

Indeed I DO post references but I don't feel the need to repost them just because you were asleep at the time. Of course I cut extracts from the references I offered, the Beazley report is 500 pages. However, if you ware 'concerned', all you have to do is go to the referenced page supplied. Are you really unable to find a reference in the Herald? Sorry, I'm not interested in helping lazy people.

These few aside, what you post is pure opinion. For instance, you state that the "lastest (sic) poll on the extra tax take shows, educated people support MORE social spending by a factor of 2" without actually referring to what poll you're talking about. And why would you believe polls anyway? Aren't they carried out by global media corporations?

Who gives a rats arse? Opinions abound here and unlike 99% of the members, I offer references and far more than almost anyone here; you included.

I used to be quite interested in these threads, but your presence within them has simply resulted in the thread's rapid deterioration into rabid dribble. I've had more reasoned conversations with Hassidic Jews and born-again Christians.

Yawn, you chose to read and respond and then you try to tell me you're not interested or somehow bored? ROTFLMFAO! Don't you even see how silly that is!
If you're really uninterested instead of just running scared of sound argument, nobody's twisting your arm to read my posts.

[idleidolidyll]

I would vote for Mr. Taylor, but i'm for National if only to get Labour out of there!

Mr Taylor seems to wants to go back to when Maori were fucked over and the government didn't give a shit. He suggested as much when we debated his 'conservatism'.

As for a 'Taylor Government' I'd expect a massive migration out of NZ the instant something as ridiculous as that happened.

[Robert Taylor]

Mr Taylor seems to wants to go back to when Maori were fucked over and the government didn't give a shit. He suggested as much when we debated his 'conservatism'.

As for a 'Taylor Government' I'd expect a massive migration out of NZ the instant something as ridiculous as that happened.

Yep, 2 way traffic. BTW, realism, not racism. You can continue to interpret how you want to and if that makes you happy then great. Just make sure you are consistent by launching into lengthy foul mouthed diatribes vilifying anyone who dares to deviate from your view of the world. Clearly, in your world conservative folk are intellectually vacant. Is that what is preached by communist lecturers littering universities perhaps?

[idleidolidyll]

Yep, 2 way traffic. BTW, realism, not racism. You can continue to interpret how you want to and if that makes you happy then great. Just make sure you are consistent by launching into lengthy foul mouthed diatribes vilifying anyone who dares to deviate from your view of the world. Clearly, in your world conservative folk are intellectually vacant. Is that what is preached by communist lecturers littering universities perhaps?

realism?

hardly, what you seem to have been advocating was going back to a time that suited you regardless of the effect of that on others. You had no intention of going back further when it would have suited Maori. That's conservatism for ya, it aint about 'Us' it's about 'Me'.

I suggested going forward instead of backwards.

BTW: I only get into foul mouthed diatribes when they are first aimed at me; something your supporters are quite happy to do.

As for 'communist lecturers': hilarious! You're so out of touch it takes my breath away. Why don't you challenge your misconceptions and go listen to a lecture or two. It'd do you no end of good.

[limbimtimwim]

If this were a poll on 'who will win the election?', we all know it's going to be a big Labour defeat. All political capital they had is spent, amazing it has taken so long really.

Now, why am I voting Green? To keep National in check. Sounds a bit silly, but I think they would consider a deal. Much to the disgust of many of their supporters.

Though I suspect National will probably be able to govern in their first term without a coalition partner.

Of course MMP leaves me free to vote for the Labour candidate in my electorate next election because she came to our little cheese cutter gathering.

[limbimtimwim]

As for 'communist lecturers': hilarious! You're so out of touch it takes my breath away. Ease off on the superlatives, you come across as an intellectual fairy.

[idleidolidyll]

Ease off on the superlatives, you come across as an intellectual fairy.

superlatives?

I didn't actually use any. Hell, I didn't even use comparatives!

Are you fresh from the swamp?

[limbimtimwim]

Are you fresh from the swamp?That's where Pol Pot came from.

[Robert Taylor]

realism?

hardly, what you seem to have been advocating was going back to a time that suited you regardless of the effect of that on others. You had no intention of going back further when it would have suited Maori. That's conservatism for ya, it aint about 'Us' it's about 'Me'.

I suggested going forward instead of backwards.

BTW: I only get into foul mouthed diatribes when they are first aimed at me; something your supporters are quite happy to do.

As for 'communist lecturers': hilarious! You're so out of touch it takes my breath away. Why don't you challenge your misconceptions and go listen to a lecture or two. It'd do you no end of good.

Such a predictable response including a favourite constantly regurgitated ploy from the left, associating conservatism with maori bashing. Time we all thought as New Zealanders I rather thought. And constant use of expletives for emphasis is not clever, given your command of the English language I thought you could have done better than that. ( And your justification doesnt wash )

With regards to lectures Ive been reading your lecturous demeanour for the last few weeks and definitely do not feel better for it. I well remember a school teacher during my latter secondary years trying to justify communism, but I singularly refused to beat to his drum. Political bias in the education system, you betcha! One of my daughters secondary school teachers thought that I must have been a farmer because a view was expressed by my daughter less than complimentary to Helen Cluck. Etc etc

As I have eluded to previously the thing that really disturbs me most about hard core lefties is that they are just so cocksure that they are right and god help anyone who dares to disagree with them...

Sorry, but I remain proudly conservative, unreformably so and no end of verbose lefty diatribe is going to change that!

[idleidolidyll]

Such a predictable response including a favourite constantly regurgitated ploy from the left, associating conservatism with maori bashing. Time we all thought as New Zealanders I rather thought. And constant use of expletives for emphasis is not clever, given your command of the English language I thought you could have done better than that. ( And your justification doesnt wash )

Nope, that was just the inference from your earlier posts and the fact that you wanted to go back just far enough so your mob would be in charge while others were screwed over.
If we are ALL to think of New Zealanders and consider their cultures and respect their beliefs then the only way is through liberalism because conservatism is a path designed to favour minority groups as it preys on the rest.
As for expletives; i really don't give a damn what you think. I'm not trying to impress you, you don't mean that much to me.

With regards to lectures Ive been reading your lecturous demeanour for the last few weeks and definitely do not feel better for it. I well remember a school teacher during my latter secondary years trying to justify communism, but I singularly refused to beat to his drum. Political bias in the education system, you betcha! One of my daughters secondary school teachers thought that I must have been a farmer because a view was expressed by my daughter less than complimentary to Helen Cluck. Etc etc

My 'lecturous demeanour'? ROTFLMFAO! Hilarious stuff. Do you do stand up too?
So a few tutors support communism; so what? Others support capitalism and others support religious ignorance. Political bias? Rubbish! The spectrum is represented in my experience and that includes fascists, capitalists, fools and fruitcakes.
Who cares about your appeal to authority? Your one of case proves nothing and is irrelevant. One of my tutors in the last few years damned Helen Clark with every breath but that too is irrelevant just as your anecdote is.

As I have eluded to previously the thing that really disturbs me most about hard core lefties is that they are just so cocksure that they are right and god help anyone who dares to disagree with them...

That's just a whine because you lack the evidence and skills to debate the subject. Instead you attack the messenger and frankly; it doesn't impress me a bit. You right wing conservatives are just as cock sure but unlike many of us, you seem always so short on proof and instead rely on innuendo, propaganda and fallacy.

Sorry, but I remain proudly conservative, unreformably so and no end of verbose lefty diatribe is going to change that!

Sure you do, you're so cocksure you're right you'll never listen to reason.
Of course I really don't care in the least.

[Robert Taylor]

Sure you do, you're so cocksure you're right you'll never listen to reason.
Of course I really don't care in the least.


You love that word PROPOGANDA and are certainly a victim of it from left field. I rather think that my views are in fact more accomodating and flexible than yours. Go on, have the last say ( again ) Or lets see if for once you can restrain yourself!

[Sanx]

It aint MY meaning sonny, it's definition from sources quoted rather than from ignorance and propaganda. I DON'T claim to BE the authoritative source, I claim to post from authoritative sources; see if you can get your head around THAT English.
BTW: The corporate media is hardly a myth and ig you were to do a bit of reading you might learn something.


No ... you quote from sources you regard as authoritative, but most others wouldn't. When it comes to meanings of words, I regard dictionaries as being authoritative. The Oxford English Dictionary alone has 500,000 words defined. It traces the etymology and usage of words using 2.5 million quotations taken from a wide range of international sources from classic literature and specialist periodicals to film scripts and cookery books; and the quotations are all cross-referenced, checked, verified, cited and dated.

The full dictionary runs to twenty volumes. Fifty-nine million printed words on 60+ kgs of paper; it'd take one person sixty years to proof-read it, and the same person double that to type it out. How much more authoritative do you want? Considering the vast number of people that edit, proof-read, consult and are required to approve each new entry, do you actually believe they're going to print fake meanings just to join in the global media conspiracy?

You might think they're the tools of corporate media conspiracies but you're in a tiny minority when it comes to that opinion; especially when the particular dictionary I quoted is not actually owned by a global media company (as you incorrectly surmised) but by the colleges of Oxford University. When it comes to meanings of terms and words, dictionaries are the authoritative sources. Just because you choose not to accept their definitions (and, incididentally, you never quoted a single external reference to support your views during that particular argument), does not automatically make you right.

[idleidolidyll]

You love that word PROPOGANDA and are certainly a victim of it from left field. I rather think that my views are in fact more accomodating and flexible than yours. Go on, have the last say ( again ) Or lets see if for once you can restrain yourself!

Yep, we are all victims of propaganda and those who deny it are the most sucked in.
The only thing we can do is to try to understand how propaganda is used and identify it whenever possible.
As for you views being more accommodating; that's unlikely. I'm a liberal which means I support the idea that people should be allowed to live their lives within their own cultures (personal and ethnic/national) as long as they do no harm to others. Conservatives by definition wish to impose their will on others.

For anyone to be informed about YOUR views and suggestions you'd first have to offer them. So far you've merely done a John Key and said bugger all on policy and belief.

How about giving details of your conservatist opinions; what do you want to conserve? You said a while back that you'd like to go back to an earlier time; what time? What specific policies would you introduce and delete?

[idleidolidyll]

No ... you quote from sources you regard as authoritative, but most others wouldn't. What, like you do? When it comes to meanings of words, I regard dictionaries as being authoritative. Really? So why do you argue with my definitions from Collins and Oxford? The Oxford English Dictionary alone has 500,000 words defined. It traces the etymology and usage of words using 2.5 million quotations taken from a wide range of international sources from classic literature and specialist periodicals to film scripts and cookery books; and the quotations are all cross-referenced, checked, verified, cited and dated. What's your point? I USE dictionaries and QUOTE from them here.

You don't think the Collins dictionary is authoritative, the Oxford? I've quoted both on the definitions of political terminology here to expose the mindless pap supplied by others? You don't think government research and inquiries are authoritative? You're making a fool of yourself.
Tell ya what, give me a list of what you consider authoritative sources.........I need a good laugh.

The full dictionary runs to twenty volumes. Fifty-nine million printed words on 60+ kgs of paper; it'd take one person sixty years to proof-read it, and the same person double that to type it out. How much more authoritative do you want? Considering the vast number of people that edit, proof-read, consult and are required to approve each new entry, do you actually believe they're going to print fake meanings just to join in the global media conspiracy?

I've used it myself; stop making fake arguments with yourself, it's embarrassing. However, you really have to know which version you're quoting and if one version gives one definition and another version from the same stable gives a different version; you really should question them.

You might think they're the tools of corporate media conspiracies but you're in a tiny minority when it comes to that opinion; especially when the particular dictionary I quoted is not actually owned by a global media company (as you incorrectly surmised) but by the colleges of Oxford University. When it comes to meanings of terms and words, dictionaries are the authoritative sources. Just because you choose not to accept their definitions (and, incididentally, you never quoted a single external reference to support your views during that particular argument), does not automatically make you right.

Now you're drooling. The CORPORATE MEDIA are tools; the words themselves give the game away. In addition, research by many noted people has exposed the fact that this media is indebted to its advertisers who pay the bills not to the public who pay a pittance in purchase costs. I've actually studied the media formally. I've offered quotes directly from the editors of some of the most famous publications in the world exposing the corporate propaganda and their tactics and yet you offer an unauthorative denial. Pardon me while I chuckle quietly.
As for quotes and references; I poked holes in your silly arguments USING references. Lets see you do the same instead of whining. I never specifically stated that the Oxford was propaganda; that's your delusion. I have used it myself. However, I note that when definitions change over time just to suit current propaganda, we must all be wary.

Please, try to offer some arguments instead of your continued attacks on the messenger; you're boring me shitless.

[Wolf]

You said a while back that you'd like to go back to an earlier time; what time? What specific policies would you introduce and delete?
We could experiment - you could take away his mum's pension and stick his kids up chimneys; I'll shove him in a tent on the beach at Petone with 1500 other families with screaming kids and 4 doctors, no electricity, no running water, no cars...

[Finn]

Now, why am I voting Green? To keep National in check. Sounds a bit silly, but I think they would consider a deal. Much to the disgust of many of their supporters.

Voting for Green IS voting for Labour so don't be a traitor.

While I believe that National won't go far enough (ACT supporter here) there's no other choice. We need National to get in on their own so we can then get rid of MMP, Maori seats and all the hangers on.

[Wolf]

We need National to get in on their own so we can then get rid of MMP, Maori seats and all the hangers on.
And make the sun come out again, cure dandruff, get rid of the nanny state....

Unless the laws inconvenience the Business Round Table, they won't touch them, they'll keep status quo on all nanny state laws restricting personal freedoms and add others to restrict them further in the interests of Big Business.

So I doubt they'd get rid of MMP and the Maori seats unless it could be demonstrated they were impacting on the Round Table doing what it likes.

They are pro-nanny-state authoritarians.

I note from your political orientation on my thread that you test out Authoritarian Right - pretty much where National sits (sat in 2005) on the chart. I respect your decision to vote Nat (although I disagree with it) - at least you're voting your political beliefs rather than playing FPP with the MMP system and voting Nat merely to depose Labour.

[steveb64]

Snip'd

Personally, I'd like to see MMP come up with a proper mixed-member parliament with a Libertarian basis and their more extreme policies (read "the ones I personally don't agree with") tempered/blocked by other parties.

I think that the problem with MMP is that they didn't take it far enough.

I would like to propose a 'dual house' parliament, with the lower house having 100 seats, and the upper house 50 seats.

Lower house is comprised of 'list' MPs, no 5% threshold, 1% of vote gets you 1 seat. 10.5% gets you 10 seats - 45.9% gets you 45 seats. Unfilled seats get filled by a lottery taken from enrolled AND voting citizens. Simply tick the box for your party vote, then on a SEPARATE form fill in your name and contact details if you want to be eligible for 'the lottery' - and a nice MP's salary. And it would be nice to have some MP's who were not professional politicians!

Upper house is comprised of electoral seats, and is the pool from which Cabinet members can be taken. NO Cabinet members allowed from lower house. That way, if they screw up, then their electorate can (hopefully) remove them. Electoral boundaries to be re-shaped only. And only to balance out population distribution imbalances. IF (due to population growth, and inability to evenly distribute voter distribution) - more upper house (electorates) seats are required, then the ratio of upper to lower house seats must be maintained. And the ratio of vote for the lower house must also be maintained, so 1 more electorate means 1 more upper house seat, and 2 more lower house seats, and the lower house threshold increases to 1.02% of party votes per seat.

PM to be selected from party with most MP's - taken from upper and lower houses. BUT - PM must be a member of the upper house.

Move elections out to 4 yearly (helps reduce long term costs), and have an elected 'El Presidente' chosen 2 years after the main elections. (Yes, I know that's what the 'merkins do, but they're allowed to have the occasional 'good idea').

The President would be basically replacing the 'Governor General' - face it - what real relevance does the Queen have to this country these days?

And I KNOW some of you are gonna yell "But there's TOO MANY politicians already!"
And what makes better 'democracy'? More people voting? And more parties? Or less?
Errm - that's "less" as in Stalin, Mao, Hitler, et al...

Oh - and secret ballot voting in parliament - members should be allowed to vote their conscience, not as they're dictated to - either by party higher ups, OR peer pressure (aka bullying).

[Wolf]

Piss off, steveb64, that sounds far too intelligent to ever work :devil2:

That lottery idea would rock, get some intelligent, "real" people in the house not only professional politicians.

[Wolf]

Sorry, but I remain proudly conservative, unreformably so and no end of verbose lefty diatribe is going to change that!


I rather think that my views are in fact more accomodating and flexible than yours.

An accomodating and flexible conservative, folks! And in the next cage, a vegetarian alligator.

[steveb64]

Piss off, steveb64, that sounds far too intelligent to ever work :devil2:

That lottery idea would rock, get some intelligent, "real" people in the house not only professional politicians.

Yeah. SIGH. :rolleyes:

Hmmm. Just had a wee brain flash! Think I'll post this idea onto some political forums... see how much of a splash it can make! :soon: It might get a bit of debate going... :shit: Just need to set up an email account somewhere that's not home first...

[Robert Taylor]

An accomodating and flexible conservative, folks! And in the next cage, a vegetarian alligator.

I steadfastly remain by those convictions even though you and your pseudo communist mate just as steadfastly feel comfortable in not beleiving them. I wonder aloud who are the most blinkered and inflexible ''contributors'' to this thread.

[Wolf]

I steadfastly remain by those convictions even though you and your pseudo communist mate just as steadfastly feel comfortable in not beleiving them. I wonder aloud who are the most blinkered and inflexible ''contributors'' to this thread.
Oh, do you mean me or the "un-named person" who screams "lefty lefty lefty" every time someone says anything counter to his extreme-right authoritarian views?

Hitler was a "lefty" compared with you and you seem to lack the intellect to understand that "right wing" does not mean "right way".

[Robert Taylor]

Oh, do you mean me or the "un-named person" who screams "lefty lefty lefty" every time someone says anything counter to his extreme-right authoritarian views?

Hitler was a "lefty" compared with you and you seem to lack the intellect to understand that "right wing" does not mean "right way".

Is the last guy on this thread and the one who shouts loudest the winner? Is that how it works?

Its very lucky for you that a clone of General Augusto Pinochet didnt run this country for a couple of decades. That would be a definition of right wing, extremely so. Not too dissimiliar to the pin up boy of many extreme left leaning thinkers, ''Uncle Joe Stalin''

I have spent the whole morning replying to business e-mails, to that end I had the intellect to realise that it was going to be more profitable than arguing with unreformable pseudo communists.

Nothing more to say other than wishing you a good day in generating tax for the current ruling politburo

[Wolf]

Nothing more to say other than wishing you a good day in generating tax for the current ruling politburo
As opposed to generating tax for your own Conservative pack of control freaks?

Personally, I'm spending my time trying to work out ways of getting authoritarian extremists - across the whole Left-Centre-Right spectrum - out of power in order to restore our lives.

Personally I'm sick of the whole Labour/Green Nanny-state and I'm sick of National's "I-wanna-Be-Like-George-Bush" mentality and the even nastier nanny-state that would engender should they get in power next term.

If the whole fucking lot of them - National, Greens, Labour and Act - all died tomorrow I'd be drunk for the following week.

[Robert Taylor]

As opposed to generating tax for your own Conservative pack of control freaks?

Personally, I'm spending my time trying to work out ways of getting authoritarian extremists - across the whole Left-Centre-Right spectrum - out of power in order to restore our lives.

Personally I'm sick of the whole Labour/Green Nanny-state and I'm sick of National's "I-wanna-Be-Like-George-Bush" mentality and the even nastier nanny-state that would engender should they get in power next term.

If the whole fucking lot of them - National, Greens, Labour and Act - all died tomorrow I'd be drunk for the following week.

Actually, I concur with some of what you have said. But people in general would also have to have a lot more self discipline so that those running essential services are not in turn control freaks for whatever reason.

[Wolf]

Actually, I concur with some of what you have said. But people in general would also have to have a lot more self discipline so that those running essential services are not in turn control freaks for whatever reason.
Can't fault that actually.

I'm not a total anarchist (in the correct sense of someone who believes we are all inherently good and public-spirited and therefore need no governance), I do believe there are some laws required for the protection of people from the greed and violence of others, but we do not need the level of laws we have now and the existing disparities within them (cruficy a business or individual if some mouth-breather injures themselves through being careless using their product and then let of some bugger who beat a little old lady half to death on the grounds that he's not responsible for his own actions, being from a broken home and all).

We do not need the government in our bedrooms, living rooms and workplaces telling us how to think and behave. We do not need laws that restrict our rights to ridicule or protest against idiotic politicians and policies.

Regrettably I can see the recent laws re not ridiculing the government and the "anti terror" law blossoming under National into our own version of the US "Patriot Act".

I poll towards the left because I believe in state funding of schools, medical services and certain historical/cultural/artistic things (museums, certain galleries etc), not because I support the idea of allowing people to sit on the dole/dpb for their whole lives.

And as to what the government has done to our schools, I believe the NZQA should be merged with OSH so the wastes of oxygen can be driven to suicide by OSH (who can then wipe themselves out in the same way - good riddance to both.)

I want my kids growing up with a quality education, not the NZQA-based shit.

[Robert Taylor]

Can't fault that actually.

I'm not a total anarchist (in the correct sense of someone who believes we are all inherently good and public-spirited and therefore need no governance), I do believe there are some laws required for the protection of people from the greed and violence of others, but we do not need the level of laws we have now and the existing disparities within them (cruficy a business or individual if some mouth-breather injures themselves through being careless using their product and then let of some bugger who beat a little old lady half to death on the grounds that he's not responsible for his own actions, being from a broken home and all).

We do not need the government in our bedrooms, living rooms and workplaces telling us how to think and behave. We do not need laws that restrict our rights to ridicule or protest against idiotic politicians and policies.

Regrettably I can see the recent laws re not ridiculing the government and the "anti terror" law blossoming under National into our own version of the US "Patriot Act".

I poll towards the left because I believe in state funding of schools, medical services and certain historical/cultural/artistic things (museums, certain galleries etc), not because I support the idea of allowing people to sit on the dole/dpb for their whole lives.

And as to what the government has done to our schools, I believe the NZQA should be merged with OSH so the wastes of oxygen can be driven to suicide by OSH (who can then wipe themselves out in the same way - good riddance to both.)

I want my kids growing up with a quality education, not the NZQA-based shit.

Amen to nearly all of that, a decent society. It would be possible to have all of that without a perceived political orientation. So why have we been at each others throats?

[limbimtimwim]

I think that the problem with MMP is that they didn't take it far enough.Mate, what you want is STV. :)
I would like to propose a 'dual house' parliament, with the lower house having 100 seats, and the upper house 50 seats.NZ Ditched the upper and lower houses.. Way back when. Can't remember. The memory got lost betwixt the beer and the wine. The room is still there. Its got a piano in it.
Lower house is comprised of 'list' MPs, no 5% threshold, 1% of vote gets you 1 seat. 10.5% gets you 10 seats - 45.9% gets you 45 seats.The royal commission on changing the voting system did recommend a 2.5% threshold. However by the time the change became law, it has mysteriously mutated into a 5% threshold.
Unfilled seats get filled by a lottery taken from enrolled AND voting citizens. Simply tick the box for your party vote, then on a SEPARATE form fill in your name and contact details if you want to be eligible for 'the lottery' - and a nice MP's salary. And it would be nice to have some MP's who were not professional politicians!Heh, you'd never see that one happening. Too much vested interest in keeping power concentrated within the 'in crowd' :)

PM to be selected from party with most MP's - taken from upper and lower houses. BUT - PM must be a member of the upper house.Why entrench the position of PM in law?
Move elections out to 4 yearly (helps reduce long term costs), and have an elected 'El Presidente' chosen 2 years after the main elections. (Yes, I know that's what the 'merkins do, but they're allowed to have the occasional 'good idea').Actually, the Americans elect the whole of the lower house every two years, and do elections for a 3rd of the Senate seats during those 2 year elections. It's a good system that, as we have seen of late, goes some way to at least question and at best halt a bad executive.
Oh - and secret ballot voting in parliament - members should be allowed to vote their conscience, not as they're dictated to - either by party higher ups, OR peer pressure (aka bullying).Oh hello, that is also an American way of doing things. 'Crossing the floor' as it is called here is not such a drama there.

MMP, which I do agree with mostly, served to entrench the party further in NZ politics. The MP is there because of their colours, not because of a group of people could identify with the personally. It must be crap being an MP in such a position and not realistically being able to cross the floor without fear of loosing their job.

Anyway, just chucking some random info out there.

[oldrider]

As opposed to generating tax for your own Conservative pack of control freaks?

Personally, I'm spending my time trying to work out ways of getting authoritarian extremists - across the whole Left-Centre-Right spectrum - out of power in order to restore our lives.

Personally I'm sick of the whole Labour/Green Nanny-state and I'm sick of National's "I-wanna-Be-Like-George-Bush" mentality and the even nastier nanny-state that would engender should they get in power next term.

If the whole fucking lot of them - National, Greens, Labour and Act - all died tomorrow I'd be drunk for the following week.

"We", would be drunk for the following week! :yes: John.

[Wolf]

Amen to nearly all of that, a decent society. It would be possible to have all of that without a perceived political orientation. So why have we been at each others throats?
Possibly due to a difference in understanding in terms? To me, "Conservative" = akin to the UK Conservative party which is extreme right (practically zero state funding of anything) and well up on the Authoritarian scale which I equate with loads of invasive and restrictive legislation.

Ironically, in England at the moment a shift to the conservative party might well get rid of a lot of the nanny-state stuff they're complaining of as New Labour is currently only very marginally left of the Conservatives but significantly more Authoritarian.

Here, however, a "conservative party" a la UK would be as right wing and a little more Authoritarian than National.

When you use the term "Conservative", that is what I envision. It could well be your definition differs.

National, Destiny and the UK New Labour and Conservatives are occupying positions on the Political Compass that equate to the area occupied by various Republicans. And the USA is so inherently right wing that even their "Democrats" are mostly Centrists, tending to right authoritarian.

Me, I'm "Republican" in that I firmly believe that NZ should become a republic but I hate to use the term due to its association with the modern equivalent of Benito Mussolini: GW Bush and his pack of rabid fascists.

[Bren]

me....i just hate labour, and want to see them out!

[Pussy]

Helen Clark was even unpopular as a child...... her mother used to have to tie a sausage around Helen's neck to make her dog play with her

[MSTRS]

That explains things then....
The dog didn't get the sausage and from the look Herr Heilen has, it's still round her neck and just a little whiffy...

[jim.cox]

This is a serious poll... At this stage if there was a snap election who would you vote for...


McGillicudy Serious :)

[NighthawkNZ]

McGillicudy Serious :)

so would i if they were still going :)