Biofuel for bikes?

[carver]

The bike biofuel test

Gull introduced “force ten” to Hamilton about a month ago, this fuel is 10% ethanol 90 % petrol.
While training to be a mechanical engineer, I studied this fuel in detail.
Ill effects can be caused by the alcohol eating the rubber components on the fuel delivery system.
But the ER6’s manual does not include the normal warnings associated with such a fuel, so by my logic, it might be ok!
So, whats the difference?
Well force ten is listed as 98 octane, along with the usual marketing shit.
The six runs a fair bit quieter, and performs better when being thrashed (I have included pics to prove my testing procedures)
But when ridden quietly it tends to feel a bit, well lean, like the throttle is between almost off and off. But that is part of the problem with ethanol, it will cause your engine to run leaner.
The power delivery is somewhat more controlled and smoother when on the go, so only a slight advantage.

Look into whether your fuel system can take ethanol before using it.

Brought to you by the “MORMON FEW-STUNT CREW”

[Pancakes]

Was nearly out of gas when I went out this morning. Was gonna fill up at the Shell in Westgate (my local). I normally use their 95 or BP 98 from Kumeu. Decided I'd run the tank down and get some Force 10 from the Gull in Cuthill (the West end of Constellation Dr). Have to say it feels more sluggish through the whole range and the biek used to have good power to just before11,000 RPM, that was about the best shift point (with the new pipe on, more like 10 K RPM w/ stock pipe). The Force 10 doesn't let the bike rev much at all! The power taipers off till it won't move much past 10,000. I'm gonna go for another blast on Tursday but if it's no better I'll be draining the tank and going back to normal gas before riding the ATNR. I have little power as it is, don't need to lose any more.

[carver]

Was nearly out of gas when I went out this morning. Was gonna fill up at the Shell in Westgate (my local). I normally use their 95 or BP 98 from Kumeu. Decided I'd run the tank down and get some Force 10 from the Gull in Cuthill (the West end of Constellation Dr). Have to say it feels more sluggish through the whole range and the biek used to have good power to just before11,000 RPM, that was about the best shift point (with the new pipe on, more like 10 K RPM w/ stock pipe). The Force 10 doesn't let the bike rev much at all! The power taipers off till it won't move much past 10,000. I'm gonna go for another blast on Tursday but if it's no better I'll be draining the tank and going back to normal gas before riding the ATNR. I have little power as it is, don't need to lose any more.

interesting...

my bike feels unresponsive off the throttle at low rpm's on 91
bear in mind my bike has fuel injection, liquid cooling, and quite a high compression ratio.
a power drop on a hyosung?
thats a worry!

[smoky]

I don’t believe it – a bloody good post from Carver
I even checked outside to see if the moon was blue – but it wasn’t, so I guess hells finally frozen over!

From what I understand; to run on it with no detrimental effects you need to adjust your timing by up to 4 deg to TDC. Re jetting to compensate for leaner mix would help.
But then your stuck running on that stuff – after making all the changes and then you have to put normal petrol in it, it’ll knock and run way to rich.

[Pancakes]

interesting...

my bike feels unresponsive off the throttle at low rpm's on 91
bear in mind my bike has fuel injection, liquid cooling, and quite a high compression ratio.
a power drop on a hyosung?
thats a worry!

Your telling me mate! And a real noticable lack of rev-ablility on a bike with not much in that dept either is a problem. Note for all the Hyo haters, I ring mine past redline by a grand or two multiple times on each ride and it's still going strong. Warm it up, let it cool down (not much throttle for the last K or 2, ok speed but just letting the air cool it) and do the oil and filters/plugs often. Is a little poo'er but just keeps on keepin' on so can't complain.

[carver]

I don’t believe it – a bloody good post from Carver
I even checked outside to see if the moon was blue – but it wasn’t, so I guess hells finally frozen over!

From what I understand; to run on it with no detrimental effects you need to adjust your timing by up to 4 deg to TDC. Re jetting to compensate for leaner mix would help.
But then your stuck running on that stuff – after making all the changes and then you have to put normal petrol in it, it’ll knock and run way to rich.

i hide some common sense in the review threads.
your right about the effects, but in testing it isn't that noticeable.


Your telling me mate! And a real noticable lack of rev-ablility on a bike with not much in that dept either is a problem. Note for all the Hyo haters, I ring mine past redline by a grand or two multiple times on each ride and it's still going strong. Warm it up, let it cool down (not much throttle for the last K or 2, ok speed but just letting the air cool it) and do the oil and filters/plugs often. Is a little poo'er but just keeps on keepin' on so can't complain.

i wonder if part of it is that to get passed emissions hyosung are taking a leaf out of suzuki's book and running ultra lean, hence the lack of power at the top of the rev range.

[smoky]

It has more oxygen in it so it can be more efficient, however it has less energy so it burns slower, so adjusting the timing is important
There’s a lot being said about its propensity to absorb moisture, especially when used for the first time – they say after several fills it actually cleans out you fuel system of excess moisture and runs better?
Doesn’t sound feasible to me.
Here’s a chart that has some bikes on it – that can and can’t run on the stuff.

[carver]

It has more oxygen in it so it can be more efficient, however it has less energy so it burns slower, so adjusting the timing is important
There’s a lot being said about its propensity to absorb moisture, especially when used for the first time – they say after several fills it actually cleans out you fuel system of excess moisture and runs better?
Doesn’t sound feasible to me.
Here’s a chart that has some bikes on it – that can and can’t run on the stuff.

interesting, so in theory mine isn't suitable..
ah well, the owners manual says nothing!
you'd probably notice a difference with high octane stuff in your bandit

thanks for the chart, id bling you, but im all up in infractions

[fergie]

thanks for the chart and good advice, iv'e printed it out to show my customers.

[Grahameeboy]

It has more oxygen in it so it can be more efficient, however it has less energy so it burns slower, so adjusting the timing is important
There’s a lot being said about its propensity to absorb moisture, especially when used for the first time – they say after several fills it actually cleans out you fuel system of excess moisture and runs better?
Doesn’t sound feasible to me.
Here’s a chart that has some bikes on it – that can and can’t run on the stuff.

Well that explains the Hyosung issue then...

[007XX]

The bike biofuel test

Look into whether your fuel system can take ethanol before using it.

Brought to you by the “MORMON FEW-STUNT CREW”

Cool post Carver...thanks for the heads up on this! :niceone:

[James Deuce]

Ethanol eats rubber fuel lines, so get them replaced if you are planning on using this fuel regularly.

[Pancakes]

Yeah, I give it a big "NO" too! Shoulda read the thing first too eh. And stuff adjusting your bike for it so you can't (or shouldn't if it'll knock) run normal gas. Go too many places on my bike to be stuck on this stuff.
I drained the tank today and have a litre in a can incase I don't get to the gasser, back to Shell 95 for me.

[carver]

Cool post Carver...thanks for the heads up on this! :niceone:

yeah, no problem, it looks to be getting bigger, the whole biofuels thing.


Yeah, I give it a big "NO" too! Shoulda read the thing first too eh. And stuff adjusting your bike for it so you can't (or shouldn't if it'll knock) run normal gas. Go too many places on my bike to be stuck on this stuff.
I drained the tank today and have a litre in a can incase I don't get to the gasser, back to Shell 95 for me.

there we go, thats what i call a balanced opinion!
i rode a GT 250 today, i actually like it better than the "R"
i wonder what the fuel lines on this bike are like (i cant remember)

[Pancakes]

yeah, no problem, it looks to be getting bigger, the whole biofuels thing.

Yeah worth keeping an eye on eh.


there we go, thats what i call a balanced opinion!
i rode a GT 250 today, i actually like it better than the "R"
i wonder what the fuel lines on this bike are like (i cant remember)

Yeah lots of people seem to get the R for the looks which I'm not sold on to be honest and I think the Nekkid one suits the engine and geometry better. You stop thinking obout the power so much and enjoy the feeling more. And wind blast at 120 keeps things fun without too much hassles from the man.

The fuel lines look like normal rubber to me, no braiding etc in them.

[carver]

Yeah worth keeping an eye on eh.



Yeah lots of people seem to get the R for the looks which I'm not sold on to be honest and I think the Nekkid one suits the engine and geometry better. You stop thinking obout the power so much and enjoy the feeling more. And wind blast at 120 keeps things fun without too much hassles from the man.

The fuel lines look like normal rubber to me, no braiding etc in them.

oh yeah?
my GS 500 had terrible fuel hoses, they were more like air line
im not sure if that was a frosty addition or standard

[Pancakes]

They look fine, nothing magic that I'd expect to hold up to constant use of gas they weren't made for but better than some cars I've had.

[roadkillnz]

Hello fellow KBer's.. my first post. Just bought my first bike.. KLR250 :)

I use Gulls E10 fuel in my car - I read through all their blurb....

Key points from their blurb...

1. For the very first fill up, fill up from almost empty, and don't only half fill... the reason - The ethanol absorbs water. Water slowly accumulates over time in fuel tanks.

My car has a 60L tank. Lets say 500 mL of water had accumulated over time. If I filled my car up to the brim, then 500 mL out of 60L is fairly insignifigant. If I only put 5 litres in (just to see if it works in my car), then 500mL is 10%.

Subsequent topups don't need to be full ones. As the water would have been absorbed and burnt.

2. Don't go to the Skifields on your first fill up.. althought they don't mention the reason, I suspect it's to do with point 1.. it might freeze your fuel lines because of the water content?

3. Check your fuel filter more often, as it has a tendancy to get the debris from your tank

Reference....
http://www.gull.co.nz/html/force10/tips.htm

Sorry if this has already been mentioned in above posts, I didn't have time to read through all the posts - only a short smoko break.

[motorbyclist]

It has more oxygen in it so it can be more efficient, however it has less energy so it burns slower, so adjusting the timing is important
There’s a lot being said about its propensity to absorb moisture, especially when used for the first time – they say after several fills it actually cleans out you fuel system of excess moisture and runs better?

ok, without reading the thread to see if this has been covered, here's what my research has told me:

ethanol is a powerful solvent, and will dissolve/degrade rubbers and plastics, which is not good for most bikes with carbies, rubber fuel lines, or for dirtbikes, plastic tanks.
if there is any old deposits it will dissolve them, but remember that crap will exit via the combustion chamber, and if a "lump" is dissolved off your fuel system it can block fuel injectors

ethanol is hydrophillic; this means it will draw water from the atmosphere into your tank. obviously less than ideal.

ethanol has an octane rating of 130, which means that engines running pure ethanol can run at very high compression, which makes up for the next property of ethanol..

ethanol has lower energy density than normal petrol - so you need to run very high compression to get equal - or greater - power output

ethanol burns at a different rate than petrol, so your timing (and ideally the shape of the combustion chamber within your engine) should be changed to tune the engine appropriately

and finally: using biomass for ethanol production to replace oil as a fuel source is an economical and environmental disaster. it is already pushing food prices up, has lowered mexico's tequila output as they get more money from fuel than tequila or food, and for the states to eliminate it's dependancy on foreign oil it needs to convert 60% of it's farmland from food to fuel production, creating a dependancy on imported food rather than oil.



so, considering the environmental benefit of ethanol is negated by the extra farmland required to process it, and my bike manuals say not to run it, and by using my bike to commute i'm cleaner than a car/half empty bus anyway, i ain't buying it!


it's a shame really, i used to be a big fan of Gull fuel, now i'm restricted to BP ultimate. but, if either of my bikes were confirmed to run the ethanol mix without damage i would consider buying it

[motorbyclist]

Here’s a chart that has some bikes on it – that can and can’t run on the stuff.

bah it's missing both honda and yamaha! owell, i'll stick to the manufacturer instructions..

[smoky]

..... has lowered mexico's tequila output as they get more money from fuel than tequila or food



well that settles it then - I'm not buying it either