Out of the Blue (Aramoana Massacre movie)

[onearmedbandit]

Just saw most of the movie on TV3, good movie giving us some insight into a national tragedy. I remember in 1990 when news of it broke, the live action we saw on tv was very surreal.

Anyway, the reason I post is one of the last scenes in the movie. Now I don't know how true the movie was to real events, but I only hope the scene I talk of was. David Gray's hold-up is surrounded by AOS, they've peppered it with gunfire and thrown in the tear gas. David bursts out with a gun in his hand, is ordered to drop the weapon, then filled with holes by the AOS. They cuff and bound him as he writhes in pain and anger, then the officers there calmly group together and enjoy a cigarette while he dies.

Cruel, hell yes. But if this child-killing mass murderer, who also shot and killed one of their own, was let go through the courts he would've been either locked up at a cost to us all until he dies, or given a cruisey number in a 'secure' mental health ward.

In my opinion, even if it was a mental illness that caused him to snap, too bad, we don't need you here. Bye bye.

[MVnut]

People like this murderer are surplus to our requirements in this society

[98tls]

When i lived up in Wellington i flatted with the cop that got shot in the foot,steven Vaughn.Scary stuff indeed.Strange it wasnt a part of the movie.

[Skyryder]

Clicked in after the netball. Sorta looked like the movie was shot with a handheld. Found it boring.............not much drama. Not too sure if that was deliberate or just poor movie making skills. But it's a story that needed to be told.

Skyryder

[TLMAN]

I was going to post a thread re this also. What a fantastic movie. The bastard wasnt going to stop until he was killed so the AOS handled it well. Also, did anybody notice that when the police officer was shot they used the actual police comms recording from the moment.

[MyGSXF]

What I wanna know.. is.. WHY the fuck they didn't 'shoot to kill' the fucker in first place!!!!!???? :weird:

Any sad fuck who can kill children at fuckin near point blank range deserves to die with one between his fuckin eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :ar15: :thud:

One wicked movie.. I am still shell shocked by it..... :eek5:

I rode through Aramoana a year after it happened.. was quite surreal... :( saw the spot where his batch was.. gave me goosebumps for hours... :mellow:

[Scouse]

I hear that the minister of Police at the time actualy orderd his execution, J.B. one of the most positive things that he has done for New Zealand

[Ghost_Bullet]

Yeah saw this film some time ago, the Mrs got it out, I was really not keen on seeing a true NZ story, and thought the whole thing was going to be rubbish.
But in fact, if as said, the rendition of events was close to the real time, then the story was truley touching for those that survived, and those that perished, apart from of course the criminal at the centre of it all.

Even if some one had something go wrong up stairs, I feel no remorse for persons when they create the type of suffering endured by the victims, such as in this film.

[Headbanger]

Uh, when the movie was first released the Cops complained about the ending, It seems in the real event that after shooting him they (claim) to have performed CPR on him and tried to save his life.

Though I'm of the opinion that if you shoot someone the least you should expect is to get shot yourself, it just makes so much sense to me.

[98tls]

Uh, when the movie was first released the Cops complained about the ending, It seems in the real event that after shooting him they (claim) to have performed CPR on him and tried to save his life.

Though I'm of the opinion that if you shoot someone the least you should expect is to get shot yourself, it just makes so much sense to me. As long as they did the decent thing and complained then fine,cops are human to which would leave me to assume that the cops that shot him felt the same revulsion of him as any normal human would.

[Trudes]

Rent the DVD and watch the special features, very interesting (well some of it).

[Badcat]

David Gray's hold-up is surrounded by AOS, they've peppered it with gunfire and thrown in the tear gas. David bursts out with a gun in his hand, is ordered to drop the weapon, then filled with holes by the AOS. They cuff and bound him as he writhes in pain and anger, then the officers there calmly group together and enjoy a cigarette while he dies.

Cruel, hell yes. But if this child-killing mass murderer, who also shot and killed one of their own, was let go through the courts he would've been either locked up at a cost to us all until he dies, or given a cruisey number in a 'secure' mental health ward.

In my opinion, even if it was a mental illness that caused him to snap, too bad, we don't need you here. Bye bye.

i thought that scene was excellent.
that maggot deserved no more respect as he coughed.
i enjoyed the movie, and liked the understated "kiwi movie" fashion in which it played out.
it was fucking hard to watch those little kids murdered.
certainly shook me out of complacency for a few minutes and need to check on my sleeping little ones.

[Oakie]

I was glad it dealt with the story in a 'here, this is what happened' manner rather than in a Hollywood dramatic style. You could tell the film-makers were out to tell a story, not win an award.
Very Kiwi.

[tri boy]

A well directed movie. I think the survivors were the ones who had Veto power on the final product. And to the directors credit, it was handled in a mature, honest manner.
I was in Aus during this tragedy, and can only imagine how it affected the southern region.
The AOS did almost exactly what I wish I had the skills to do.(I would hope Gray suffered a bit longer, f**king sack of shit).
The local coppers were portrayed in a manner that I think would be close to the event. (nerves on edge, a bit scared, but doing the best they could).
Respect to the Boys/Girls in Blue.

[NighthawkNZ]

The thing about Davud Grey was that he needed help, well before the shooting (opening scene when he thinks and visualised the cops are at his place when they weren't) It showed the human side of him when he had a tear and realised what he had done and it was real and not one of his haulinations when he saw the collection of the elephants... he compared to he collection of guns. Some thing made him snap...

The special features on the DVD say the ending is pretty close.. (though the cigarette thing I doubt) He did come out shouting kill me, and fought the cops to the very end.

It is recommended to rent the DVD and see the special feature.

There is a good discussion on the IMDB message boards on various threads
http://imdb.com/title/tt0839938/

[ManDownUnder]

I hear that the minister of Police at the time actualy orderd his execution, J.B. one of the most positive things that he has done for New Zealand

I heard they were supposed to do it execution style though, blind folded, stood against a post and a firing squad, one bullet among many blanks so no-one would really know who did it - the whole nine yards.

Amasing stuff!

[peasea]

I loved the bit when the pig got shot, that was great.

[Swoop]

i thought that scene was excellent.
that maggot deserved no more respect as he coughed.
That scene, with the AOS standing around having a smoke, is the only part of the movie the police took exception to.
The gunshot through the eye, which was shown on the movie, matches the scene photographs taken as evidence afterwards.

I think the "firing squad" comments, made earlier, are improbable at least...

The thing about Davud Grey was that he needed help, well before the shooting (opening scene when he thinks and visualised the cops are at his place when they weren't)
The police had been at his crib before it all started. He had appeared on the police radar and could have been dealt with at that stage, but they failed to do anything along those lines to prevent this all happening.

[spudchucka]

What I wanna know.. is.. WHY the fuck they didn't 'shoot to kill' the fucker in first place!!!!!???? :weird:

Because at the time police general instructions in regard to the use of firearms against offenders was that they could not fire their weapons until the offender had been called upon to surrender first, this is what cost Stu Guthrie his life. Following Aramoana the general instructions were amended by placing the words, "unless it is unsafe or impractical to do so" after the called upon to surrender part.

There was a scene in the movie where Guthrie instructs the other cops at the scene not to fire unless they had called on him to surrender first.

[TLMAN]

I loved the bit when the pig got shot, that was great.


Hello - weve found the next david gray......

[MyGSXF]

Because at the time police general instructions in regard to the use of firearms against offenders was that they could not fire their weapons until the offender had been called upon to surrender first, this is what cost Stu Guthrie his life. Following Aramoana the general instructions were amended by placing the words, "unless it is unsafe or impractical to do so" after the called upon to surrender part.

There was a scene in the movie where Guthrie instructs the other cops at the scene not to fire unless they had called on him to surrender first.

Thats all fair enough for the times, for sure.. but I was referrring to the AOS.. they put a few shots in him.. but none were instantly fatal.. (I do reliase that that MAY not have actually been possible..) I am just stating my feelings.. the fucker deserved one between the eyes!!!! :ar15:

[TLMAN]

Then he would have the luxury of dying instantly instead of lying in excrutiating pain riddled with bullets for a time before he died.

[jonbuoy]

I can't understand why they let the nutter rove around at night with people still in their houses like that old granny. Why didn't they evacuate the town with an APC or similar - even a bus kitted out A team style with steel sheets over the windows and a loud hailer.

[spudchucka]

Thats all fair enough for the times, for sure.. but I was referrring to the AOS.. they put a few shots in him.. but none were instantly fatal.. (I do reliase that that MAY not have actually been possible..) I am just stating my feelings.. the fucker deserved one between the eyes!!!! :ar15:

There has been numerous threads previously about this sort of thing. Head shots are seldom justifiable in law enforcement scenarios.

[MyGSXF]

Head shots are seldom justifiable in law enforcement scenarios.

lols.. & murdering innocent little children at virtually point blank range isn't justifiable???!!!! :doh:

[Oakie]

lols.. & murdering innocent little children at virtually point blank range isn't justifiable???!!!! :doh:

I think the point is that you're supposed to shoot at the greatest body mass to get a better chance of a hit and the chest area is a way bigger target than a head. So yeah, 'a shot between the eyes' is way more effective when the target is hit but it is a much harder shot, hence not being justifiable.

[spudchucka]

lols.. & murdering innocent little children at virtually point blank range isn't justifiable???!!!! :doh:

You're comparing the actions of a murderer who has no regard for life or laws with the actions of a law enforcement officer who has to act lawfully in every regard, especially as he squeezes the trigger.

The police are not there to carry out state sanctioned revenge, even if the offender thoroughly deserves it.

[JMemonic]

Did not see the film, moved to Dunedin not too long after the event, or might have actually been living there at the time, meet a chap who sold David Grey ammo and firearms (legitimate dealer) who actually attempted to get the police to seize the firearms and ammo as he was mentally unfit to hold the licence, remember that this happened just after the laws changed and the system lost track of what guns a person had, just gave them permission to buy guns (thats another argument for another time). Not unlike now unfortunately the police did not get to check out the claims/complaint due to numbers and staffing issues, the fact that Grey stated to this guy he was going to use x gun to kill y neighbour was not taken seriously.

Of course this is all hearsay and never came out in any of the enquires as some one in authority went arse covering, hmm reminds me some of the same folks did the Bain investigation and never found out that the father was prostituting the daughter even though it was local knowledge, nuff said.

Sad situation really, some bosses can get away with incompetence while folks get shot including an officer who was trying to save lives.

Bitch all you like about the police but I bet when some nutter is running down your street shooting people, you will be screaming out for them.

[JMemonic]

You're comparing the actions of a murderer who has no regard for life or laws with the actions of a law enforcement officer who has to act lawfully in every regard, especially as he squeezes the trigger.

The police are not there to carry out state sanctioned revenge, even if the offender thoroughly deserves it.

Well said :apint:

[scumdog]

I can't understand why they let the nutter rove around at night with people still in their houses like that old granny. Why didn't they evacuate the town with an APC or similar - even a bus kitted out A team style with steel sheets over the windows and a loud hailer.

They cops didn't know where everybody was, they didn't know where Gray was, they didn't know if there were other shooters etc etc

So no what you suggest would have been possible.

And how long to kit out a bus with armour etc?????

[NighthawkNZ]

Why didn't they evacuate the town with an APC or similar - even a bus kitted out A team style with steel sheets over the windows and a loud hailer.

You are kidding right... You been watching to much tv

[SPman]

I think the documentary that TV did, a year or so after the event, was more chilling than any film could ever be. Brilliantly done, with the original sound, newsreel footage,police recordings, interviews with the survivors and no "scene" music.

It's all right to mouth off in retrospect about what should or should not have been done, but in the situation that was there, I think the police did as well as could be expected.

Life is not an american TV cop show!

[scumdog]

I loved the bit when the pig got shot, that was great.

Sheesh, I wonder if the publishers of the publications you submit articles for visit this site??????

[SVboy]

I was living in Central when this happened, and some of my colleagues lost friends there. I think the actual shooting of Gray was televised on the news? The film is very true to my [fuzzy] recollections. I think it was a time that shocked NZ out of a state of innocence and naivity and seemed to compound the impact of rogernomics at the time. A great, sad movie imho.

[ynot slow]

Saw the start and up to the point where one cop (I think)had a chance to kill,but hessitated,bit different now,then he may have been told why didn't you shoot?,today if he had shot a guy they ask why did you?

Agree it was at the time if you have a firearm it is registered to you,now only the person is registered,authorities have no idea how many arms a person has,and the more they legislate(sp)the harder for legitimate people to get firearms,can remember as a 17yr old sitting my arms code and getting license,proud as.

If the crims want firearms they get them,either use standover tactics to a guy with a license who might owe the gang for drugs,or just steal them,the tighter laws don't work well, maybe for innocent people but not crims.

[NighthawkNZ]

I loved the bit when the pig got shot, that was great.

wot a twat :bash: I don't normally give red reps but you got one out of me...

[scumdog]

I was living in Central when this happened, and some of my colleagues lost friends there. I think the actual shooting of Gray was televised on the news? The film is very true to my [fuzzy] recollections. I think it was a time that shocked NZ out of a state of innocence and naivity and seemed to compound the impact of rogernomics at the time. A great, sad movie imho.

Na, only the sound of the shooting was televised.

As you can imaging, a TV crew would be the last thing the guy on the ground would have wanted hanging aroubd them.

But true about NZ and the innocence and naivity, I guess that's part the reason the whole thing happened - nobody really thought Gray would have done anything like it, hence no action was taken prior to the event.

[NighthawkNZ]

But true about NZ and the innocence and naivity,

And we still are as a country and population as naive as it comes

[jonbuoy]

You are kidding right... You been watching to much tv

Only partly - I couldn't actually believe it happened in the 90's it looked like it was set in the 70's. Why weren't the army involved - surely they had night vision/thermal imaging that could have helped out after dark.

[NighthawkNZ]

Only partly - I couldn't actually believe it happened in the 90's it looked like it was set in the 70's. Why weren't the army involved - surely they had night vision/thermal imaging that could have helped out after dark.

Well I left the navy in 1991... and we were only then getting thermal and night vision gear then... so I very much doubt the police had it...

You also have to remember it was set in a small settlement hour an hour up the road from Dunedin the settlement of Aramona back then had very few people that actually lived out there (comparitively) it was and sitll is mainly cribs and batches. Heck the road out there has only just been sealed in the last 10-15 odd years. It was and still is a sleepy little settlement, No shops, police (nearest is in Port Chalmers), no water (have collect the rain water) Power and phone hadn't long got there... when I lived out there there many locals still had there own generators etc

As for the army being involved... it is not their job, it was and still would be a police matter.

[jonbuoy]

Well I left the navy in 1991... and we were only then getting thermal and night vision gear then... so I very much doubt the police had it...

You also have to remember it was set in a small settlement hour an hour up the road from Dunedin the settlement of Aramona back then had very few people that actually lived out there (comparitively) it was and sitll is mainly cribs and batches. Heck the road out there has only just been sealed in the last 10-15 odd years. It was and still is a sleepy little settlement, No shops, police (nearest is in Port Chalmers), no water (have collect the rain water) Power and phone hadn't long got there... when I lived out there there many locals still had there own generators etc

As for the army being involved... it is not their job, it was and still would be a police matter.

Night vision was commonplace in 1990 - gulf war was 1991. Helicopters & 4x4's and 737's were around too - Isn't that exactly what counter terrorism divisions are for??

[NighthawkNZ]

Night vision was commonplace in 1990 - gulf war was 1991. Helicopters & 4x4's and 737's were around too - Isn't that exactly what counter terrorism divisions are for??

The cops in Auckland might have had them but not in Dunedin... Heck Invercargill is probably only getting them now :lol:

Counter terrorism or SAS teams... no thats not there job, but it is the job the so call S.W.A.T teams it was a civil matter and the took care of it.

[SVboy]

I think the whole point is , up until that point, and excluding that West coast massacre, no-one thought there was any reason for such an event in "Godsown" and therefore the Police were not trained, or prepared.

[Pixie]

The usual movie media crap going for the artsy fartsy effect.

one scene sees a cop hearing a small child saying " Please don't shoot me"
so some wanker of a script writer thinks he should have the cop pop up a point his gun at the kid.

[Pixie]

The special features on the DVD say the ending is pretty close.. (though the cigarette thing I doubt)
Not allowed to smoke in the workplace

[NighthawkNZ]

Not allowed to smoke in the workplace

I could back in 1991 though :mellow:

[Patrick]

I loved the bit when the pig got shot, that was great.

Why did they stop the journalists from going in? You might have been one of them... real poor form....


I can't understand why they let the nutter rove around at night with people still in their houses like that old granny. Why didn't they evacuate the town with an APC or similar - even a bus kitted out A team style with steel sheets over the windows and a loud hailer.

Bwahahahahahahahaha..... Yeah, they are lying around in every back yard.

APC?? Find one working first...

A Team couldn't hit anything. Ever see anyone get shot in that programme?????

[Ixion]

I think the whole point is , up until that point, and excluding that West coast massacre, no-one thought there was any reason for such an event in "Godsown" and therefore the Police were not trained, or prepared.


Mangatapu murders, 1866.

[jonbuoy]

I think the whole point is , up until that point, and excluding that West coast massacre, no-one thought there was any reason for such an event in "Godsown" and therefore the Police were not trained, or prepared.

I think thats closer to the truth.

[spudchucka]

Mangatapu murders, 1866.

Many kiwis are still foolish enough to think that NZ is a utopia where no home grown evil exists.

[JimO]

Many kiwis are still foolish enough to think that NZ is a utopia where no home grown evil exists.

they will be the same people who think Tama Iti and his mates were just having a bit of fun

[Skyryder]

Maori are the first to complain when someone 'pinches' their culture. Saw some on TV tonight dressed like Arabs with the headband thing. What a buch of tosspots and hypocrites.

Skyyrder

[SVboy]

While we are gong off thread, I think it is interesting that the police action, and subsequent dropping of terrorist charges, has provided a smokescreen and wonderful distraction from the seriously concerning activities that were going on. Tama Iti must be laughing!!

[Patrick]

While we are gong off thread, I think it is interesting that the police action, and subsequent dropping of terrorist charges, has provided a smokescreen and wonderful distraction from the seriously concerning activities that were going on. Tama Iti must be laughing!!

There never were any "terrorist charges."

"Seriously concerning" is a massive understatement though..........

[DougieNZ]

Yes,


From my recollections and reading:

This was a tough call for Nick Harvey. But by the time he had the guy lined up he actually wasn't posing a threat to anyone. All his killing had been done by then, so Nick correctly applied the fire orders at the time.

As i recall, an AOS sergeant on arriving at the scene told all staff that they could shoot Gray on sight if he was seen, but this order was contermanded by an Inspector in Dunedin who said that he must be called on to surrender first.

Yes, CPR was performed in an attempt to save his life.

Yes the Gun dealer said "I knew he would do it" after an incident in his shop. He got his 5 minutes of fame, but i really don't think for a moment that anyone could have predicted those events.

One thing that is not mentioned a lot is that there were several angry incidents leading up to the incident between David Gray and various members of the community. Others spoke of him with some fondness. The incidentsw included a rumour/accusation that he was a peeping tom. That's a pretty serious accusatiuon - particularly if you are innocent. I have always wondered if this contributed to tipping him over the edge.

No excuse for what he did though...

[scumdog]

Mangatapu murders, 1866.


Different context - that was a robbery from memory.

[NighthawkNZ]

Different context - that was a robbery from memory.

And in a total different era of our history

[Patrick]

Different context - that was a robbery from memory.

Ahh... so that is where I know you from..... you were there too???