When is a BMW not a BMW?

[marks]

"For this reason, we have decided to procure the single-cylinder engine for the G 650 Xcountry from a Chinese supplier"

see here (http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=571240) for more

Chinese quality with bmw prices - could you ask for anything more?

[James Deuce]

Well that just torpedoed that range.

Marketing Suicide.

[xgnr]

Hmmm....

Will stick with me 'K' I think

[marks]

a pipe
some slippers
and a bowl of rice

[James Deuce]

The pipe will explode with the first use, the slippers will drop their soles on the third step, and the rice will be a plastic replica of a bowl of rice.

[Frodo]

The frame of my F650 was built by Aprilia and the motor by Rotax. But both are world class brands.
The motor of my current Aprilia is built by Minarelli (an Italian Yamaha subsidiary). I'm happy with that.
But a Beemer built in China?

[Goblin]

:laugh: :clap: Good find there marks!
Bling!

[windboy]

Chinese quality with bmw prices - could you ask for anything more?

Not sticking my hand in the fire for the BMWs fellas but from experience (moving production to china) I can tell you that chinese quality control can be as good as a manufacturer set it to be. The quality control of chinese manufacturing line depends strictly on how meticulous management was when setting it all up... if it was good then they would catch all te rejects early... clockwork orange style

Now, the cost should seriously drop ....! :chase:

[marks]

Now, the cost should seriously drop ....! :chase:

I'll believe that when I see it.

even if all quality issues are solved. Its a perception thing
BMW is perceived as a quality product engineered and built in Germany
Quality Chinese manufacturing is perceived as an oxymoron

[Zukin]

I guess its a bit like all those Holden Commodore lovers

Some of them are made in Korea, I always thought they were crap, but this reinforces that :laugh:

In reality I don't care too much as most of the parts for most mechanical things are made there now and have been for a number of years, I remember when my day said "Don't touch those bloody Japanese cars, they are crap" :laugh:
Now look how far they have come :)

[tri boy]

Snigger snigger snigger, at least in a year or two, it will be a level manufacturing playing field.
Those Zongshens will stand proud next to Beemers, Honda's, Triumphs.
Can't wait until Ducati finally make a similar press release, Bwahaahhaaaaa:2thumbsup:laugh:

[deanohit]

I can tell you that chinese quality control can be as good as a manufacturer set it to be. The quality control of chinese manufacturing line depends strictly on how meticulous management was when setting it all up... if it was good then they would catch all the rejects early...

Yep, I think you'll be right there, even the japs would make shit if they didn't have the quality control in place, I reckon BMW will be onto it enough to not accept any duds, after all, the chinese have been making small bikes for the big 4 for a few years now, although we don't get them besides the GN250, so can't really comment on the quality.

You'll be lucky to see BMW drop there prices though!

[James Deuce]

I guess its a bit like all those Holden Commodore lovers

Some of them are made in Korea, I always thought they were crap, but this reinforces that :laugh:

In reality I don't care too much as most of the parts for most mechanical things are made there now and have been for a number of years, I remember when my day said "Don't touch those bloody Japanese cars, they are crap" :laugh:
Now look how far they have come :)

Korea is a bad analogy. Daewoo and Hyundai build ships. Making cars is an afterthought.

The Japanese entered the world market fully intending to improve product and service.

The Chinese literally don't care what we think of them or their product once they have the cash. The Japanese don't really either, but they ARE committed to superior product and always have been. Look at what Datsun did with the BMC A, M, and O series engines.

Chinese quality control IS an issue. There are no laws to compel them to meet any sort of International standards within China or for their export customers, hence they can cut corners once the design principle signs off on the production "Standard". BMW's own quality control has been slipping, especially with the latest GS1200 - breaking gearboxes, stripping drive splines, and electronics that mysteriously go on the blink are not a good look for German Manufacturing.

BMW are trying to break into a younger market with the new 650 series. All it takes is one batch of engines to get through the system with pig-iron cams instead hardened steel and BMW's youth gamble is over.

[James Deuce]

although we don't get them besides the GN250, so can't really comment on the quality.



There's your answer right there. I haven't seen a Chinese GN over 12 months old (except Buckbuck's) that hasn't shown signs of serious corrosion on anything that is chromed or plated. Wally Simmond's Japanese GN was 21 years old and had a bit of fur on the alloy that had discoloured it a little. It had enough marks and dings to have rendered a Chinese GN and unrecognisable pile of rusty rubble. The rims had no corrosion. I've seen 2005 GN alloys that look like they've been chewed by a small mammal with big teeth.

[cooneyr]

Not that I know anything about these things other than the Marshin Cheeter 200 with a blown gearbox in the garage (1400kms from new), with the full quote from the press release.....


For this reason, we have decided to procure the single-cylinder engine for the G 650 Xcountry from a Chinese supplier who will manufacture the engine according to our BMW specifications and quality standards. And the 450 cc engine for our new, innovative BMW sports enduro will be made by Kymco in Taiwan in a production facility equipped according to BMW specifications.

..... and what Windboy said.......


Not sticking my hand in the fire for the BMWs fellas but from experience (moving production to china) I can tell you that chinese quality control can be as good as a manufacturer set it to be. The quality control of chinese manufacturing line depends strictly on how meticulous management was when setting it all up... if it was good then they would catch all te rejects early... clockwork orange style

Now, the cost should seriously drop ....! :chase:
.......we can only hope that quality is retained or improved (I wont become a guniee pig though).

As for the price issue this don't look good!


Our next step is to increase our purchasing and cooperation activities in the Asian markets. Purchasing parts and components in the Asian region is an important means of reducing the currency disadvantages of the euro – in particular as compared to the yen. This is the only way we can create some leeway within cost structures so as to enable us to continue to offer our customers innovations and technical highlights in the medium category.


Cheers R

[clint640]

Well that just torpedoed that range.


The G650X is going to be a dead duck to all but the most one eyed BMW enthusiast come next April anyway. When the 690 Enduro KTM arrives with more hp, less weight, more fuel range, & based on rumours of US pricing, a price tag up to $5k less than the BMW, why the hell would you buy one?

It's hard to see why you'd buy one now actually when you can get a new TE610 Husky for $12k, but a lot of people are wary of Husky's reliability & support I spose.

Cheers
Clint

[warewolf]

The G650X is going to be a dead duck to all but the most one eyed BMW enthusiastNot sure that the G series is targetting only the people who shit blue & white. Part of the raison d'être of the G bikes is to target a wider audience, which would include poeple who's values don't align with the aforementioned.

Shifting manufacturing to mainland Asia is the way of the world these days; Triumph have done it with some of the Bonnie range.

However China is still a difficult place to do business; anecdotally it is very common for quality to drop off significantly after the initial deal is done and early production approved.

But yes, I get your point vis-à-vis the 2008 KTM 690 Enduro (http://www.ktm-parts.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=K&Product_Code=08690END&Category_Code=NEWPROD):
<img src=http://www.ktm-parts.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/08690ENDURO_big.jpg>
:drool:

[clint640]

Not sure that the G series is targetting only the people who shit blue & white. Part of the raison d'être of the G bikes is to target a wider audience, which would include poeple who's values don't align with the aforementioned.


True indeed. I really like the G-X's, they're well thought out & nicely put together. But at $17k they are priced so far into the stratosphere compared with the $9-$12k competition that you'd need a serious roundel fetish to consider one. Any real or perceived drop in quality from chinese manufacture would quickly rule out that set & spell the end for the G-X series.

Cheers
Clint

[cooneyr]

$8,898 us = $11,700 NZ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (at current rates)

Wasnt the 625 SXC/640 LC4 retailing for $13k?

Whats the self supporting rear tank? Is there a rear subframe or does the tank replace it?

Cheers R

[clint640]

$8,898 us = $11,700 NZ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (at current rates)

Wasnt the 625 SXC/640 LC4 retailing for $13k?

Whats the self supporting rear tank? Is there a rear subframe or does the tank replace it?

Cheers R

Yep, with the 2 obvious competitors for the 690E $5k apart in pricing (TE610 & G650X-Ch) It'll be interesting what they come in at. I reckon if they really want to sell a heap the $12k mark would do it, then everybody buying DR650/XT600 type stuff would be very tempted to just shell out a little extra... much more $$ & they'll only sell as quickly as the old 640, ie. not very. Gunna be at the local dealer who have one on order 2mrw so I'll ask.

The 625/640E have been priced at $14-$16k retail over the last few years, but they've been pretty slow moving so most of em have gone out as runout stock from $11-13k

It is a self supporting rear tank, no subframe. I reckon I could build some pannier racks to go on it pretty quick though.

Cheers
Clint

[The Stranger]

I guess its a bit like all those Holden Commodore lovers

Some of them are made in Korea, I always thought they were crap, but this reinforces that :laugh:



So koreans are too thick to assemble cars?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Not sure that the G series is targetting only the people who shit blue & white. Part of the raison d'être of the G bikes is to target a wider audience, which would include poeple who's values don't align with the aforementioned.

Shifting manufacturing to mainland Asia is the way of the world these days; Triumph have done it with some of the Bonnie range.

However China is still a difficult place to do business; anecdotally it is very common for quality to drop off significantly after the initial deal is done and early production approved.

But yes, I get your point vis-à-vis the 2008 KTM 690 Enduro (http://www.ktm-parts.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=K&Product_Code=08690END&Category_Code=NEWPROD):
<img src=http://www.ktm-parts.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/08690ENDURO_big.jpg>
:drool:

I would love to have a KTM 690 Duke in my garage...... same motor but full roadbike.

If it was cheap enough.......................

[avgas]

I remember years ago some bloody Korean company, building suzuki bikes, shippin them off to japan, then sending them to us under the Suzuki brand.
Most people were none the wiser.
I hear they have their own brand now days - something starting with H....

[PeteJ]

Yep, I think you'll be right there, even the japs would make shit if they didn't have the quality control in place, I reckon BMW will be onto it enough to not accept any duds, after all, the chinese have been making small bikes for the big 4 for a few years now, although we don't get them besides the GN250, so can't really comment on the quality.

You'll be lucky to see BMW drop there prices though!

Suzuki AX100s sold new in NZ have been made in China for years, DH.

Come to that, plenty of US badged machines' componentry is made in eastern Asia, too.

Going on comments on various overseas adventure riding forums, my own experience of declining BMW quality since my first BM (in the early 1970s) through to recent times has plenty of parallels. I would not be very surprised to see BMW reputation for quality start to improve again with Asian-made product.

Some would say that quality to match the present pricing would be a good thing to see.

PS I have personal experience that a well-known designer known personally to me was contracted a couple of years ago to design a motorcycle engine range for one of the Chinese manufacturers. They are prepared to spend money, and to look internationally, to do things properly.

[SPman]

I guess its a bit like all those Holden Commodore lovers

Some of them are made in Korea, I always thought they were crap, but this reinforces that :laugh:

No Commodores are made in Korea - do you mean the current Barina, which is.
Which is why we didn't buy one!
Got a Hyundai Getz 1.6 Hatch instead - 25,000k in the last 9 months and its great.

[avgas]

"Don't touch those bloody Japanese cars, they are crap"
They never were, look how many ratty shitbox corollas/civics still exist.....compare the maintenace of them to the equivelent mini, holden, ford, austin, jag, chev.....
Ideas change, people change - but some stuff is the same over a long period of time.
As for the new holdens built by Daewoo.
I reluctanly got one as a work car - and i can say they are fantastic, and feel alot better than most of the Japanese/Euro cars i have owned. Holden do quite alot of work on them so they suit NZ/Aus conditions.
When i did some research i found that there was nothing wrong with Daewoo - just an image that Korean cars were crap.
As you probably know now....that is not the case.

[PeteJ]

They never were, look how many ratty shitbox corollas/civics still exist.....compare the maintenace of them to the equivelent mini, holden, ford, austin, jag, chev.....
Ideas change, people change - but some stuff is the same over a long period of time.
As for the new holdens built by Daewoo.
I reluctanly got one as a work car - and i can say they are fantastic, and feel alot better than most of the Japanese/Euro cars i have owned. Holden do quite alot of work on them so they suit NZ/Aus conditions.
When i did some research i found that there was nothing wrong with Daewoo - just an image that Korean cars were crap.
As you probably know now....that is not the case.

Yeah, it's a continuum of development, all right.

The ratty shitbox Corollas/Civics keep on going after abuse that the equivalent Mini and Jaguar could never have taken (personal experience in each of these cases - and I still have Triumphs and a Jaguar, because I just like 'em, not because they are in any way better than Japanese alternatives).

Though I have no personal experience, I would not be at all surprised if the Korean cars turn out to be even more durable. There are certainly rustpile Jappers around, just as there are British and - to return to topic - BMW models that are notorious for rust.

[Motu]

They never were, look how many ratty shitbox corollas/civics still exist.....compare the maintenace of them to the equivelent mini, holden, ford, austin, jag, chev.....

As for the new holdens built by Daewoo.
.

You obviously weren't there at the beginning - early Jap cars were a joke,but they got better....so will Chinese stuff.I remember one of our customers sold his nice PA Vauxhall and got a Hino Contessa,it just about sent the poor old bugger broke.He just had to keep fixing it as it was a total orphan that no one wanted.My boss really hated having to tell the guy it was going to cost a shit load more to fix this time,and time and time again.I once worked on one of the first Toyota's in the country - a Toyopet.It was an aircooled flat twin of zero horsepower,with an auto trans that sapped it into the negatives.What a piece of crap that thing was.

Daewoo have been making cars for GM for a long time - the Pontiac Le Mans was a Daewoo,and they were made in the mid '80's.