MotoGP electronics

[BarryG]

Many of the riders are saying that electronics are making current 800 GP bikes 'too easy' to ride. Forgetting about what 'easy' is to those blokes compared to what 'easy' is to Joe Average bike rider, they may have a point. Grids are covered by a couple of seconds, someone runs away at the front but behind, the order doesn't seem to be that fluid, people tend to pretty well ride at whatever pace, and outbraking and accelerating earlier are a bit of a thing of the past.
I see that F1, starting now, has a standard ECU which does away with traction control and engine braking, maybe not all but certainly to the extent that it was free for all before. After the first tests, the drivers seem to be saying 'hey, this is fun again, we have more input at the wheel and pedals as to how quickly we go'. In other words, maybe dumbing down the electronics and removing driver aids will result in a better driver being able to overcome a slight setup difference to be able to make better progress on the road than has heretofore been the case (for quite a few years, anyway).
I wonder if MotoGP will be taking notice, and a control ECU and removal of rider aids will become mandated and racing, as we have it now, may improve?
Cheers
Barry

[quattrocchi]

... I wonder if MotoGP will be taking notice, and a control ECU and removal of rider aids will become mandated and racing, as we have it now, may improve?

Quite possibly. The thrill from this side of the bike is to see the rider do something and see the bike squirm or slide and buck, and it seems like something we can all relate to. (if it were me, if I had a moment at one corner I'd be still heart-athumpin' a few miles down the road...). But with these new 800s having electronic launch control and so on we just don't see so much action, and so the races may seem boring. They all arrive at the corner at the same time, etc. But if they were to ban them it'd be tough for Ducati who it seems has come up with a very superior version, by all accounts.

But then as I read on another forum if it was truly a prototype series the rules would read:
1. a rider.
2. Two wheels.
3. a belly pan.

[Sully60]

Good topic BarryG

I think this issue was best highlighted reading the reports from the Wildcards at the USGP. Roger Lee Hayden was commenting on the differences between himself and the regular Kawasaki GP riders. Comparing the telemetry compared to him the regulars take advantage of the traction control and in his words just whack the throttle open mid corner and let the electronics do the rest. He was riding it like a superbike and rolling on as he brought the bike upright.
Another example was Sepang, watching Casey breaking heavily at the end of the two long straights the back tyre would step out 6-8 inches and sit there, smooth and consistantly every lap. I take nothing away from Casey but to be that consistant over that many laps in that heat..we all know backtorque is an area where the electonics have also taken over the finer points of rider control.
I have even seen somewhere (and it wasn't a dream this time) that one of the electronics/engine managment companies if developing front tyre traction control, as opposed to ABS, WTF?

So when does Dorna draw the line, like both of you mentioned it seems everybody brakes and accelerates at the same time the only difference is the start (as long as you're not Dani Pedrosa) Anyway because I'm a luddite I want to see carburetted 500cc two strokes with drone motors again (when was the last time we saw a highside anyway?)

[denill]

But then there is the other side of the coin - the science fiction stuff that is available now will more likely feed down to the bikes we ride if the boffins are given a free hand. It is after all, not a production bike series like WSBK. If MotoGP is to be about prototypes - then anything and everything should be go. ie: The quickest, rider friendly machines possible.

[SimJen]

Interesting....see here http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64022
I'd prefer no rider aids, it makes it more exciting and allows the riders true talent to shine through.

[speed63]

Im with Denill, it is not just about the riders it is also about technology. You dont want to limit the investment in research and development.

[cowpoos]

you guys really think that electronics have made the motoGP bikes easy to ride??

[Toast]

you guys really think that electronics have made the motoGP bikes easy to ride??

I wouldn't say they've become easy...but what about Schumi...5 seconds off the pace on the new Duc....15 seconds off the pace on the one from 2 years ago (supposedly that had a lot less electronic intervention according to the guy in the article that SimJen posted a link to).

Not that the majority of us would experience that kind of improvement with the new electronics...you've still gotta be trained to make the basic decisions required at those extremely high speeds, it's just that the more complex elements of throttle control are seemingly no longer a pre-requisite to going super-fast.

[kiwifruit]

you guys really think that electronics have made the motoGP bikes easy to ride??

Raj seems to ride his one pretty well, or so i hear :dodge:

[Usarka]

you guys really think that electronics have made the motoGP bikes easy to ride??

Easy no. Easier to go fast yes. Its changing the skillsets required to be faster than someone else. mid corner and exit throttle control isn't so important, so braking will become more so.

[cowpoos]

I wouldn't say they've become easy...but what about Schumi...5 seconds off the pace on the new Duc....15 seconds off the pace on the one from 2 years ago (supposedly that had a lot less electronic intervention according to the guy in the article that SimJen posted a link to).

Not that the majority of us would experience that kind of improvement with the new electronics...you've still gotta be trained to make the basic decisions required at those extremely high speeds, it's just that the more complex elements of throttle control are seemingly no longer a pre-requisite to going super-fast.


Easy no. Easier to go fast yes. Its changing the skillsets required to be faster than someone else. mid corner and exit throttle control isn't so important, so braking will become more so.

so wsbk riders would be faster riders or better riders or something along those lines???


Raj seems to ride his one pretty well, or so i hear :dodge:

he's a natural though mate...something we can only aspire too!!

[Usarka]

so wsbk riders would be faster riders or better riders or something along those lines???

if wsbk remove traction control and other gizmos and we give it a few seasons then maybe they will be better riders on non-gizmoed bikes

Might be a good opportunity for wsbk marketting???

[k14]

You just need to compare the amount of crashes now compared to 4 or 5 seasons ago. The amount of crashes are so small now that even some races this year all of the starters finished. Back 5 years ago that was impossible. Also look at how many highsides there have been this year? Only one i can think of is stoner at philip island when he was on a dry track and riding on wets.

[Cleve]

isn't fewer highsides more to do with better tyres and flatter powerbands though?

[imdying]

Rider aids... ha! I like bike racing... the bikes are the best bit. The sooner they biff the riders away and make it a pure bike on bike competition, the better. Then we'll know who builds and sets up the best black horse of steel once and for all :yes:

[Usarka]

isn't fewer highsides more to do with better tyres and flatter powerbands though?

the standard technique for exiting a corner on a gp bike is now to bang open the throttle and let the tc do the work..... a couple of riders like to ride "old school" and tweak the tc accordingly. but my guess is the tc is the biggest factor in the equation....

[k14]

isn't fewer highsides more to do with better tyres and flatter powerbands though?
I understood it to be totally from traction control. Its still not foolproof (ala Pedrosa at malaysia last year) but is damn near close to it. Even in world superbikes there are less and the tyres they use there are way way less in quality compared to the GP guys.

[Cleve]

Its still not foolproof (ala Pedrosa at malaysia last year)

ala Rossi at Valencia?

[DEATH_INC.]

isn't fewer highsides more to do with better tyres and flatter powerbands though?
You know 200+hp and lotsa throttle in a corner = highside....tyres aren't that good yet....
I tend to agree aboot the electronics thing, but then moto gp is aboot development.....definately should ban it from wsb though....

[roogazza]

J. Burgess (the GP tech/guru) .. once said bike racing was 20% bike,
80% rider, as compared to 80% car 20% driver in F1 !

Maybe those percentages are changing ? Gaz.

[codgyoleracer]

There has been a few instances in superbike & GP when the traction control & launch control has got all frazzeld - the result is a biff or near biff. It just shows that the rider does gets to rely on these things being there & when they are suddenly not it is clear to all.
Personally - I can see both sides, the technolgy makes em go round-n-round faster so in theory it must be better. The reality is that its often less exciting to anyone but the true purist.
So if its the specators at track & on pay TV that pay the wages of the entire circus - then putting a little bit of the rider (& rider error) back into the equation makes some sense ?
Glen W

[BarryG]

Quattrochi has it right!
I pine for the old days, when it was all simpler. Nowadays, there's no such thing as 'simple'. If you open it all up to the basics, there's going to be all the whingers saying 'no fair', 'too expensive', 'too many people getting hurt', 'the bikes are too fast', etc etc et-bloody-cetera.
We need a bit of anarchy, such being provided by as few rules as possible. You'd have a lot of hangers on losing their 'jobs', no doubt, but who needs PR flacks, palatial entertainment suites for self-important people, soulless racetracks?
Sorry - off on a rant.

Cheers
Barry

[pritch]

Rossi is apparently on record as saying that the 800cc bikes and the ride by wire throttles etc make the riders more equal.

This could make for interesting racing for the spectators, but there is less scope for a rider to gain an advantage with riding skills.

[gav]

Bollocks, so why aren't the races closer then?
As for Shuey being 5 sec off the lap record, does anyone here actually believe that? :lol: If so, you're way too gullible!
Even Randy Mamola was over 5 seconds slower than the lap record, you think MS was quicker than Mamola? :( Nah, didnt happen.

[Cleve]

I consider myself reasonably intelligent so it may all be put at risk with this question, but would it really be the case that if you whacked open the throttle mid corner on an 800cc GP bike the electronics would take over and you wouldn't high side??!!

[gav]

Casey Stoner is currently sitting out testing after crashing and damaging his collar bone. Do you want him to answer for you?

[gav]

Heres Nicky Hayden's answer for ya!
Q If he did go that fast, do you think part of the reason is that he's been through a lot of traction control. Like your brother, Roger Lee, who said after riding the Kawasaki that it's just difficult to whack that thing wide open and make it work?


A You know, that's hard to answer, because I don't know what system Ducati has. I know our system. I think we can improve a lot. I don't think we're as advanced as the Ducati is. On our bike, I can tell you, you cannot just whack the throttle open. It's not like people think traction control is, on our bike. But I know the Ducati is quite advanced. So maybe on that bike, he can. Supposedly Loris, that's what people—he could never get that, where Casey could. I definitely, the electronics have made things a lot—people say, "Oh, they're easier, they're easier." Yeah, they're easier, but people are just riding them faster now. Just because you've got electronics, drop in there behind Stoner and then tell me how easy it is.

Yeah, it's made the bikes probably easier to ride, but I don't think it's made it any easier to try to break track records, because everybody has it. I think that's something people don't understand. They think traction control is like in a car. You can't just whack the throttle and wheelie this or that. It's a big part of that, and it's a big help, but everybody has it, so it's not really any different than when nobody had it. Yeah, it's made things, tire life as the race goes on, easier, you change your settings, but I can't really - I think it's made it easier for probably 250 riders. Honestly, I liked it without. I think for my style, my dirt-track background, would be to my advantage if nobody had it. But we're not riding around in horse and carriages any more, either, and this is the future. But I think people have a misconception about it, that it makes it a lot easier, and that just whacking the throttle open—well, I know with what we got, that's clearly not the case.

[NZsarge]

Bollocks, so why aren't the races closer then?
As for Shuey being 5 sec off the lap record, does anyone here actually believe that? :lol: If so, you're way too gullible!
Even Randy Mamola was over 5 seconds slower than the lap record, you think MS was quicker than Mamola? :( Nah, didnt happen.

Yes it did, that guy has more talent than he he know what to do with....that's why he paid the big bucks..
Just like ......Rossi!

[gav]

Yes it did, that guy has more talent than he he know what to do with....that's why he paid the big bucks..
Just like ......Rossi!

:blink: No it didnt, proof of that is from the trackside photographers who were taking all the photos of him. Each time they take a photo it has a time, you take another photo it has the new time. Pretty easy to work out the difference and get a good idea on his lap times. All indications are his times were between 1m 47s and 1m 42s. Still pretty good, though.

Heres the times from other journo's who rode the Duc, mind you, they only got 4 laps, not the 58 laps that Shuey got.

Randy Mamola, 1:38.714
Kenny Noyes, Roadracing World, 1:39.604
Wayne Gardner, 1:42.811
Alex Criville, 1:43.245
Steve Atlas, 1:43.378
Michael Neeves, 1:48.138
Didier de Radrigues, 1:48.526
Steve Parrish, 1:48.899
Roland Brown, 1:49.598
Alex Gobert, 1:51.008
Dario Marchetti, 1:51.546
Sir Allan Cathcart, 1:53.686

[Ivan]

Why Is everyone arguing over this those guys to get to this level have massive skill behind them,

They didnt ride a bike in Europe or what not riding on traction control they rode without and rode like demons and they got there because they were the best,

DOnt go arguing about them,

We might sideline and say hey this that and who but, really,

They are fucken legends and letthem do what thwey want:calm:

[NZsarge]

:blink: No it didnt, proof of that is from the trackside photographers who were taking all the photos of him. Each time they take a photo it has a time, you take another photo it has the new time. Pretty easy to work out the difference and get a good idea on his lap times. All indications are his times were between 1m 47s and 1m 42s. Still pretty good, though.

Heres the times from other journo's who rode the Duc, mind you, they only got 4 laps, not the 58 laps that Shuey got.

Randy Mamola, 1:38.714
Kenny Noyes, Roadracing World, 1:39.604
Wayne Gardner, 1:42.811
Alex Criville, 1:43.245
Steve Atlas, 1:43.378
Michael Neeves, 1:48.138
Didier de Radrigues, 1:48.526
Steve Parrish, 1:48.899
Roland Brown, 1:49.598
Alex Gobert, 1:51.008
Dario Marchetti, 1:51.546
Sir Allan Cathcart, 1:53.686

If this is so it puts Shuey between Wayne Gardner and Steve Parish, shit for a guy who does'nt ride bikes, I
i'm sorry but I think bloody impressive!
Don't forget he stepped back into a F1 car for the first time in over a year and swept everyone aside, f*rk him, he should'nt have retired.
But i'd like to say...well done Kimi.