Bikers collide with Police car in Buller Gorge (1 December)

[Grub]

NZPA | Saturday, 01 December 2007

A police traffic patrol car and a motorbike ridden by two people have collided in the Upper Buller Gorge.

Inspector Stuart Leighton of southern police communications said in a statement one of the pair on the motorbike was flown to Nelson Hospital and the other was taken to Murchison Hospital by ambulance.

Mr Leighton said the road was closed and detours were in place.

The police serious crash unit was at the scene to determine the cause of the accident.

Details of the crash were not immediately available.

[McDuck]

I bet the cop went to pull them over and got wayyyyy to close and nocked them over.

[unrealone]

Wonder what story they're concocking right now, while they "release" the details of the crash.

[Skyryder]

Wonder what story they're concocking right now, while they "release" the details of the crash.

The usual. I did not see you.:buggerd:


Just hope the two bikers are OK Don't like the sound of it when the serious crash unit are invloved.

Skyryder

[skelstar]

I bet the cop...


Wonder what...

You guys are idiots.

[McDuck]

You guys are idiots.

Lets see you come up with a theory then.

[SwanTiger]

The motorcyclist was probably at fault.

Who knows? Who cares? They're both still alive.

[James Deuce]

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html

[Nasty]

Heres the article ... sounds pretty bad at the moment. http://www.stuff.co.nz/4303271a11.html

Police car was going to follow a speeding motorbike and u-turned into an on-coming bike in the Upper Buller Gorge. Seems famililar somehow. :(

[Dafe]

How do you know that thats what happened? Not a good look for the cops!

[bane]

How do you know that thats what happened?

that is what is being reported on ZB this morning.


Lets hope and pray they pull through.

[Oakie]

News report at 8am indicated that the cop was chasing 1 bike, abandoned the chase and did a U turn and a bike coming up behind went into the side of the car.

[NUTBAR]

bummer....hope the cops ok.

[skelstar]

Lets see you come up with a theory then.
Why on earth would I want to unless I had a cause?

[cruza]

not good. Tis a great road for bikes lovely scenery and all lots of twisties.Not the best place to do u-turns in some of the bits .But then there is the days quota to fill.:whistle:

[davereid]

Just in - two bikers are being airlifted to hospital after a police car did a U turn in front of them. Police car was doing a u-turn to chase another biker.

Hope the outcome is not to serious for the bikers.

Edit - oops.. already posted by nasty...

[Blue Thunder]

Heard on the radio this morning that another biker was knocked off their ride!
This time it would appear that a Police Officer:Police: while doing a U turn to pursue an alleged speeding bike, had a bike hit him.
Both riders are reported as being in serious condition.:doctor:
No report to who was at fault!:doh:

Hope the two in hospital recover soon!

[JimO]

i would say motorist doing u turn is at fault

[Unit]

I heard this on the radio too it happened in the Buller George, top South Island. Needless to say Im appalled to hear of such an incident by so called highly trained professionals (the cop doing the u-turn). This should just not happen. Thoughts to the riders and their speedy recovery

[Pixie]

I heard this on the radio too it happened in the Buller George, top South Island. Needless to say Im appalled to hear of such an incident by so called highly trained professionals (the cop doing the u-turn). This should just not happen. Thoughts to the riders and their speedy recovery

You're having a laugh, aren't you?

[RC1]

never nice to hear , hope for a speedy recovery by those involved

[crashe]

This police comms email came in Saturday evening.....


NZ Police CommCens Alert 14:45 1-12-2007 Tasman

Location of incident: Buller Gorge

Incident Type: Serious crash

Emergency services were called to the scene of a vehicle crash in the Upper Buller Gorge. The crash was between a police patrol car and 2 motorcyclist's riding on one bike.
The Two motorcyclists required medical treatment. One was flown to Nelson Hospital by helicoptor and another was taken to Murchison by road ambulance.

The road is still closed and detours are in place.
Police Serious crash unit is in attendance and will ascertain the causes of this crash.
Nelson police will make any further media releases
Issued By: Inspector Stuart Leighton

[McDuck]

Why on earth would I want to unless I had a cause?

Then why on earth are you here?

I said that because all the times i have been pulled over the cop has gotten real real close to my back, to within a few meters. If a cop was to tap a bike into a ditch or power pole it could easily do major damage.


Oh and i was wrong, oh well.

[Blue Thunder]

try this. Todays NZ Herald
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10479616

[McDuck]

I wounder how fast the bike was going?

[oldrider]

I wounder how fast the bike was going?

Obviously too fast to stop in half the clear distance ahead of him, unless the police car cut recklessly in front of him!

These are the questions that will need to be answered. :shutup: Truthfully! :shit:

I hope everyone is OK. :doctor: John.

[Daffyd]

"Yesterday afternoon two men travelling on a motorbike slammed into a U-turning police patrol car in the Upper Buller Gorge. They are both in hospital seriously injured, one of them in a critical condition."

I copied this from a news item on my home page, 'NZ City'. As soon as I saw it I sent off an email expressing my disgust at the bias of the report. I suggested that the item should have read, "Police car U-turns into path of motorcycle carrying two passengers".
I am waiting for a reply.

[dipshit]

Obviously too fast to stop in half the clear distance ahead of him, unless the police car cut recklessly in front of him!


It is being able to stop in the total distance of visible road ahead.
Half the distance if you are on a narrow single lane road.

Just seen the news and it was on a large fastish corner lined with trees. The cop said there were no other vehicles visible when he started to pull out onto the road.

One of the bikes was a late model Ducati.

[MSTRS]

Just seen the news and it was on a large fastish corner lined with trees. The cop said there were no other vehicles visible when he started to pull out onto the road.

One of the bikes was a late model Ducati.

If anyone other than a cop did a u-turn there, they would be automatically done for careless causing injury. Yes, it was a long sweeping tree-lined corner, but the location shouldn't make any difference. The onus is on the turning vehicle to ensure the way is clear. And it was two sprotbikes that hit the car, not a single with pillion.
'Police are considering charges' says OneNews...I wonder who will 'get it'?

[Grahameeboy]

It is being able to stop in the total distance of visible road ahead.
Half the distance if you are on a narrow single lane road.

Just seen the news and it was on a large fastish corner lined with trees. The cop said there were no other vehicles visible when he started to pull out onto the road.

One of the bikes was a late model Ducati.

Hate u-turns....one of the most hazardous maneovres in my book. So easy to miss somthing......if it is done in the wrong place a vehicle is a some point blocking the one side of carriageway giving limited evasive choices.

Sounds like this was on a bend so bloody iffy......all well saying stop in half distance you can see etc but then I guess you would not expect a vehicle doing a u-turn on a bend.........I know you are suppose to expect the unexpected, however, if the cop did do a u-turn on a bend then who is the more culpable...............I mean when you do a manouevre like that there is an onus on you to expect something to appear etc etc.......

[Katman]

I know you are suppose to expect the unexpected, however, if the cop did do a u-turn on a bend then who is the more culpable

That is the crux of it. "Expect the unexpected". What use is it lying in a hospital on your deathbed saying "but it wasn't my place to give way"?

[dangerous]

If anyone other than a cop did a u-turn there, they would be automatically done for careless causing injury. Yes, it was a long sweeping tree-lined corner, but the location shouldn't make any difference. The onus is on the turning vehicle to ensure the way is clear. And it was two sprotbikes that hit the car, not a single with pillion.
'Police are considering charges' says OneNews...I wonder who will 'get it'?

The cop needs a farking bolicking just like me or you would.
If I or you were to do a u turn where that cop did the police would have our balls for bookings... I wonder if this cop will end up in the shit? all he wanted was to add to his quota and take chase... no farking brains were involved in his case, I know the road well in fact did it last weekend... it was a stupid place for a U turn just like most of the west coast.



Wonder what story...

I bet the cop...

You guys are idiots.
well then that might just make 3 of ya's
Just you wait and see, you cant trust the NZ police... they will come out squeaky clean, and I bet the cop did fuck up.

[dipshit]

Hate u-turns....one of the most hazardous maneovres in my book. So easy to miss somthing......if it is done in the wrong place a vehicle is a some point blocking the one side of carriageway giving limited evasive choices.

I totally agree. However anything could be halfway around that next corner. A fallen branch, a cow, a rolled car... etc etc. From the cop's point of view there may have been enough visibility for a car travelling at 100kph to slowdown. A bike coming around at 200kph at full lean say, is just bad luck.

We all know the hazards involved when going for it. It is a role of the dice.

Of course if the bikes were nearly on top of him, and he simply didn't see them as he pulled out, then that's a different story.

[dangerous]

A bike coming around at 200kph at full lean say, You cant do 200k on them roads, to narrow too tight too bushy and over growen... its the west coast man.

[James Deuce]

well then that might just make 3 of ya's
Just you wait and see, you cant trust the NZ police... they will come out squeaky clean, and I bet the cop did fuck up.

How does it make Skel* an idiot? He was commenting on people leaping to conclusions without any facts to hand. At the time he said it it was on the money. That doesn't make it less true right now.

[dipshit]

You cant do 200k on them roads, to narrow too tight too bushy and over growen... its the west coast man.

Regardless, we need to stop automatically blaming everybody else. Fucking cages... fucking cops, blah blah blah... And yet the carnage continues. Our energy would be better spent taking a long hard look and some responsibility for our own actions rather than worrying about everybody else.

Half of motorcycle accidents are the fault of the motorcyclist. We are just as bad as the car drivers at injuring ourselves.

[dangerous]

How does it make Skel* an idiot? He was commenting on people leaping to conclusions without any facts to hand. At the time he said it it was on the money. That doesn't make it less true right now.
Ohh I know that Jim, look at those guys that posted, they are young what do you expect... either way Skel is is comenting with out knowing the full facts aswell.. just like me.
What I saw on TV3 news is that the cop did a 3 point turn and did not see any traffic comming when he started the U turn... what does that tell you? the road is narrow and dangerous and you cant do a 3 point turn in the time it takes a bike to come around the corner.
The media has covered both accos and no two reports have been the same on either acco... what happened, wait n see.


Regardless, we need to stop automatically blaming everybody else. Fucking cages... fucking cops, blah blah blah... And yet the carnage continues. Our energy would be better spent taking a long hard look and some responsibility for our own actions rather than worrying about everybody else.

Half of motorcycle accidents are the fault of the motorcyclist. We are just as bad as the car drivers at injuring ourselves.

I agree... and we cant let this countrys "do gooders" protect the guilty either

[dipshit]

What I saw on TV3 news is that the cop did a 3 point turn and did not see any traffic comming when he started the U turn... what does that tell you? the road is narrow and dangerous and you cant do a 3 point turn in the time it takes a bike to come around the corner.


Funny, the same coverage I saw showed a large shoulder that they said he pulled over onto, and after looking that no vehicles were coming, was starting to move back out onto the road when the bikes hit.

It's 50/50 as to who could be at fault. Time and investigation will tell. No point in jumping to any conclusions.

[dangerous]

Funny, the same coverage I saw showed a large shoulder that they said he pulled over onto, and after looking that no vehicles were coming, was starting to move back out onto the road when the bikes hit.

Mate... if its been wet and thers every chance of it on the coast... you dont drive on the grass that was showen. and I bet were the camera man was standing wasent the actualy spot, it will still be cordened of and a copper on points.

[R6_kid]

Looked like one bike was Ducati 999/749 and the other was a similar large capacity V-twin.

[orangeback]

Looked like one bike was Ducati 999/749 and the other was a similar large capacity V-twin.

hope the coppers have got a wof and reg as the isurance wont pay for that 999 and rsv they just toasted
(may cost the coppers 50k):lol::lol::girlfight::wari::lol:that bit of road 160 km would be pushing it to stay on in places , (great bit of tarmack to ride as long as its not wet )

[inlinefour]

Heard on the radio news a fellow rider stating that the main way of making it safer for motorcyclists on the roads is for everyone to take more care when looking to see if the coast is clear. He also commented on the lack of ability of many cage operators to do so. Pretty much summed my thoughts about it nicely. A couple of my offs could have been avoided if that was the case.
Don't see the point in laying blame as its not going to help in avoiding it in future. Best thing to do is learn from it and act accordingly. I also heard that a campervan took out another bike with two on it. Sucks.

[The Pastor]

I bet the driver of the cage is sweating like a cop right about now.

Where were the police in this situation? Giving out (on the way to) tickets.

Makes me sick.

[Katman]

Half of motorcycle accidents are the fault of the motorcyclist.

Well that's the first statement you've made that I would say is crap. I would say 90% of motorcycle accidents are the fault of the motorcyclist or there were at least steps that the motorcyclist could have taken to avoid the accident. I am sick to fucking death of hearing motorcyclists spouting "fucking cagers this, fucking cagers that"!

[JKWNZ]

Some interesting stats: "41 per cent of injury motorcycle crashes occurred in situations where drivers did not see the motorcycle" - ACC

"In 75 per cent of the accidents the motorcyclists were not at fault" -ACC

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10445028

[McDuck]

How does it make Skel* an idiot? He was commenting on people leaping to conclusions without any facts to hand. At the time he said it it was on the money. That doesn't make it less true right now.

Why am i an idiot? I just said my opinion of what would be most likely to go wrong in a police maneuver to pull somebody over? Sure i now know that it was the cop doing a uturn when should not have been but being wrong in this case dose not make me an idiot, it makes me wrong in this case.

So what would have been your GUESS if you got asked what could have happened? Hell ask renegade master about how long we spent held up at that bike crash on the coro loop guessing about what happened. We could not see the wrecks in enough detail to jack shit but that did not stop us.

[dipshit]

Some interesting stats: "41 per cent of injury motorcycle crashes occurred in situations where drivers did not see the motorcycle" - ACC

"In 75 per cent of the accidents the motorcyclists were not at fault" -ACC

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10445028

That was only analysing accidents from a handful of city streets...

"Auckland City police roading manager Inspector Heather Wells said most of the district's motorcycle accidents occurred on five major roads in the city - Great North Rd, Great South Rd, Karangahape Rd, Newton Rd and Ponsonby Rd.

The 43 accidents that have occurred on those five roads between 2001 and 2005 have cost nearly $1 million."

[dipshit]

Well that's the first statement you've made that I would say is crap. I would say 90% of motorcycle accidents are the fault of the motorcyclist or there were at least steps that the motorcyclist could have taken to avoid the accident.

Hey, then I haven't been doing too badly then.

I agree that we could be doing a lot better at riding defensively and safely in the first place to be avoiding a big chunk of that other 50%


From... http://www.transport.govt.nz/motorcycles/

[puddytat]

Right....I was at the scene of the accident today (Sunday) & I can tell you the Cop is in the wrong....what the fuck was he thinking!! I ride this road every other weekend & to pull over to do a U turn there is just plain stupid!! The section is narrow & winding but with no speed advisory signs so you travel @ the speed limit....as you approach the corner it crests slightly & you start to tip in, & then right in front of you with little warning, is the spray paint accident marks. The Folk on the bikes wouldnt have had time to even hit the picks. IMO he has unfortunately made a very bad call to attempt to turn in a VERY dodgey spot on a day where the region was full of bikes doing a toy run...
According to their mate who I coincidentally had a chat with @ the gas station in Murch,not far up the road from the scene.He was on his way to Nelson to see his friends in Hospital....They'd been on their way to meet up with him @ the Glaciers on Saturday & failed to show up....both of them are in bad shape with multiple injuries. Their mate was gutted & he summed it up quite nicely by saying that "for the sake of a fucking ticket the cop nearly killed my friends"
Theres lots of pissed off people talkin' bout this round Murhison @ the mo ,as it seems that we have a veritable plague of roaming marked & unmarked cars gangbanging everyone they can round here.Say what you like bout speed & safety but we're all feelin' like theyre trying to intimidate as well as generate revenue...probably cause theres bugger all crime but lots of tourists & Joe Average Kiwis on holiday (or not) who are getting pinged @ every opportunity,& even if youre not doing anything wrong they'll use the warrant/rego thing to pull you up when doing 37 in a 50 zone....:nono:
So we'll have to see what happens.....a moment of bloody mindedness has seriously affected not only the two riders but I reckon the Policeman will be feelin pretty guilty too...:nono:
Hope the two fellas pull thru, the Murch Boys thoughts are with you ....

[doon12]

My heart goes out to our brothers involved in this life changing accident.

The next game is who to blame.

The cop involved and his masters are working on a strategy to blame these bikers for this incident, admit to nothing is a fundamental principal for the cops.

On regaining their health I think these guys will feel the full weight of police might.

[James Deuce]

Why am i an idiot? I just said my opinion of what would be most likely to go wrong in a police maneuver to pull somebody over? Sure i now know that it was the cop doing a uturn when should not have been but being wrong in this case dose not make me an idiot, it makes me wrong in this case.

So what would have been your GUESS if you got asked what could have happened? Hell ask renegade master about how long we spent held up at that bike crash on the coro loop guessing about what happened. We could not see the wrecks in enough detail to jack shit but that did not stop us.

My guess would be a couple of invincible sprotsbike riders traveling at warp speed smacked into a Police car performing an illegal U-Turn. But I'd probably be very wrong.

A big chunk of KB has popped in and done the normal automatic defense of the motorcyclists/pillory the Policeman routine.

It's old.

It's tired.

It ignored available facts as usual.

Leaping to conclusions about an event you weren't present at and involving dead or hurt people was shown up for the hurtful, nasty waste of time it is, exactly one year ago.

Speculating about how people died without facts to hand is stupid. You do not know who might be reading this thread. There are no names published yet.

Hell the cop might even be a motorcyclist.

[McDuck]

what the fuck was he thinking???

Bacon and egg pie.

[doon12]

My guess would be a couple of invincible sprotsbike riders traveling at warp speed smacked into a Police car performing an illegal U-Turn.

A big chunk of KB has popped in and done the normal automatic defense of the motorcyclists/pillory the Policeman routine.

It's old.

It's tired.

It ignored available facts as usual.

Leaping to conclusions about an event you weren't present at and involving dead people was shown up for the hurtful, nasty waste of time it is, exactly one year ago.

Speculating about how people died without facts to hand is stupid. You do not know who might be reading this thread. There are no names published yet.

Hell the cop might even be a motorcyclist.

The fact is a cop U turned and two bikes hit him, is this not a risky manouvere anywhere!

[VasalineWarrior]

Condolences to the riders. Its a year to the day that we lost three of our own on this very weekend very sad to hear it almost reapeated at another end of the country

[James Deuce]

The fact is a cop U turned and two bikes hit him, is this not a risky manouvere anywhere!

If you're going to quote a post at least quote it properly and don't leave bits out.

I've been dealt to by a U-Turning school mum, but no one gave a fuck because she wasn't a cop. Or am I reading what you guys are saying wrong?

You guys and your kangaroo court are one of the reasons why I wonder why the hell I keep coming back here and picking at this scab. Stick your hand up if you've wandered about an accident scene collecting "personal effects" while they load bits of a mate's body into an ambulance. The last thing you care about is vengeance.

One cop fucks up (and I'm not defending the U-Turn) and you've already got him, the NZ Police force, The Minister of Police and any judge who sits the case tried and convicted of corruption.

[puddytat]

According to the "mate" I spoke with there were two bikes involved,the first one hitting the car which spun it round & then the other bike TBoned into the other side of the car....

[McDuck]

My guess would be a couple of invincible sprotsbike riders traveling at warp speed smacked into a Police car performing an illegal U-Turn. But I'd probably be very wrong.

A big chunk of KB has popped in and done the normal automatic defense of the motorcyclists/pillory the Policeman routine.

It's old.

It's tired.

It ignored available facts as usual.

Leaping to conclusions about an event you weren't present at and involving dead or hurt people was shown up for the hurtful, nasty waste of time it is, exactly one year ago.

Speculating about how people died without facts to hand is stupid. You do not know who might be reading this thread. There are no names published yet.

Hell the cop might even be a motorcyclist.

These are fair points. I would like to make a few small points.
The guy is alive.
I was not saying anything hurtful or blaming the injured person, to do that i would need some proper proof. I just ran through in my mind where the action of pulling somebody over was most likely to go wrong. The fact that i was wrong and did not take into account the U-turn factor is now irrelevant. Note that i used the words 'i bet' which in my book mean the same as 'i think' which means ;i am guessing that this is what happened'.


Could i ask you a question, if somebody rings you up saying the bike will not go. The lights come on but the starter will not go. What are you going to tell them to check? I would go with the kill switch because it is the MOST LIKELY to be stopping the bike form starting.

[Ixion]

My guess would be a couple of invincible sprotsbike riders traveling at warp speed smacked into a Police car performing an illegal U-Turn. But I'd probably be very wrong.

A big chunk of KB has popped in and done the normal automatic defense of the motorcyclists/pillory the Policeman routine.

It's old.

It's tired.

It ignored available facts as usual.

Leaping to conclusions about an event you weren't present at and involving dead or hurt people was shown up for the hurtful, nasty waste of time it is, exactly one year ago.

Speculating about how people died without facts to hand is stupid. You do not know who might be reading this thread. There are no names published yet.

Hell the cop might even be a motorcyclist.

And a smaller, but more elite chunk has popped in and done the normal automatic defense of the police, who can do no wrong, and it's those crazy speeding bikers who are to blame.

As to the rest, so what you are saying is that two bikers are badly smashed up, but because we do not know what colour jocks the cop was wearing, we must needs just shrug and ignore it ?

Ah, yes, of course, apathy, the good old Kiwi way.

(You'll note that I've quoted you in full, nothing left out)

[MaxB]

Thanks for the post. It clears a lot up but I'm a bit confused. Nothing new there. Was it north or south of the swing bridge? Either way it is pretty tight round there.

When the riders come right they will be able to tell their side of the story. Hope they will make a full recovery.


Right....I was at the scene of the accident today (Sunday) & I can tell you the Cop is in the wrong....what the fuck was he thinking!! I ride this road every other weekend & to pull over to do a U turn there is just plain stupid!! The section is narrow & winding but with no speed advisory signs so you travel @ the speed limit....as you approach the corner it crests slightly & you start to tip in, & then right in front of you with little warning, is the spray paint accident marks. The Folk on the bikes wouldnt have had time to even hit the picks. IMO he has unfortunately made a very bad call to attempt to turn in a VERY dodgey spot on a day where the region was full of bikes doing a toy run...
According to their mate who I coincidentally had a chat with @ the gas station in Murch,not far up the road from the scene.He was on his way to Nelson to see his friends in Hospital....They'd been on their way to meet up with him @ the Glaciers on Saturday & failed to show up....both of them are in bad shape with multiple injuries. Their mate was gutted & he summed it up quite nicely by saying that "for the sake of a fucking ticket the cop nearly killed my friends"
Theres lots of pissed off people talkin' bout this round Murhison @ the mo ,as it seems that we have a veritable plague of roaming marked & unmarked cars gangbanging everyone they can round here.Say what you like bout speed & safety but we're all feelin' like theyre trying to intimidate as well as generate revenue...probably cause theres bugger all crime but lots of tourists & Joe Average Kiwis on holiday (or not) who are getting pinged @ every opportunity,& even if youre not doing anything wrong they'll use the warrant/rego thing to pull you up when doing 37 in a 50 zone....:nono:
So we'll have to see what happens.....a moment of bloody mindedness has seriously affected not only the two riders but I reckon the Policeman will be feelin pretty guilty too...:nono:
Hope the two fellas pull thru, the Murch Boys thoughts are with you ....

[dangerous]

One cop fucks up
Thats were ya wrong, looking at the big picture take into account all the filthy cops and stich ups there has and is in this country.
OK, this cop no doubt fucked up and is seriously regeting it.. hell any of us could have made that bad call, maybe hes acreation of his bosses and was brain washed into nicking the speeding bike... either way a copper should know better than to make a dumb arse desision like he did.
And FWIW, some of my beter mates are coppers so I aint taring them all.


My guess would be a couple of invincible sprotsbike riders traveling at warp speed smacked into a Police car performing an illegal U-Turn. But I'd probably be very wrong.

A big chunk of KB has popped in and done the normal automatic defense of the motorcyclists/pillory the Policeman routine.

It's old.

It's tired.

It ignored available facts as usual.

Leaping to conclusions about an event you weren't present at and involving dead or hurt people was shown up for the hurtful, nasty waste of time it is, exactly one year ago.

Speculating about how people died without facts to hand is stupid. You do not know who might be reading this thread. There are no names published yet.

Hell the cop might even be a motorcyclist.you know Jim... maybe the sports bike riders were well awear of there mortality, maybe they were riding at a lesser speed than required?
Its KB of course people are going to pop up and say there one eyed pieces, its the net you should be used to it.
This event has nothing to do with the events of a year ago, why people have to keep brining that up I dont know.
Yeah the cop might be a biker... so what.
Ohh and on ya for saying your piece. ;)

[idb]

And a smaller, but more elite chunk has popped in and done the normal automatic defense of the police, who can do no wrong, and it's those crazy speeding bikers who are to blame.

As to the rest, so what you are saying is that two bikers are badly smashed up, but because we do not know what colour jocks the cop was wearing, we must needs just shrug and ignore it ?

Ah, yes, of course, apathy, the good old Kiwi way.

(You'll note that I've quoted you in full, nothing left out)

Sometimes I open these threads and allow myself to get outraged at the cop/motorcyclist/road builders/God.
Sometimes I think that it is only right that we wait to hear the facts.....................and sometimes I just sigh.

[Shazz]

Wishes of recovery to all riders involved in the South Island accidents this weekend gone. No matter what...it was an accident, its happened, who to blame is not ours to fault...blame will be sorted by those who deal with it.
Take care of yourselves, as we only can. :love:
Stay upright, alert and alive is all I can pass on.

[unrealone]

Edit: Removed my comment.

Don't wish to enter into this conversation anymore :)

/hugs edit button

[James Deuce]

I'm not defending the cop or the motorcyclists.

My comment about the events of last year is relevant.

Once again there is a shitty weekend in relation to motorcycle deaths and injuries.

Once again every Tom, Dick, and Harry thinks they can recreate the scenario in their head and accurately apportion blame, and expound at length on a predetermined outcome that exists only in their own head.

katman is dead right too. There is always something a motorcyclist can do to avoid an accident, even if it comes down to accepting you're not in the right head space to go for a ride.

[Katman]

katman is dead right too.

Thank you Jim. I was about to reply to unrealone until I realised that I just couldn't be arsed.

(Don't know about your choice of words though).:msn-wink:

[Fatjim]

The three deaths this weekend last year involved bikes on the wrong side of the road.

The three deaths this weekend involved cages on the wrong side of the road.

Not really a trend there.

BTW, I rode from Auckland to Welly on Sunday, via the Taupo track day for D and B. I didn't have any moments, nor saw any real daft shit except on the Auckland Motorway. Quite a safe ride in the North Island.

[Katman]

I rode from Taupo to Wanganui and back on the weekend and was impressed by the number of cars that moved over to allow more room for me to pass. Each one got a wave of thanks.

(I'm almost tempted to suggest organising a protest ride against the attitude of a depressingly large number of motorcyclists. You know the one - "I'll ride however the fuck I want, and if you don't like it, go fuck yourself".):msn-wink:

[MSTRS]

No matter what...it was an accident...

No it wasn't. It was a crash. I'm sick of events like this being called 'accidents'. Accidents are extremely rare events, whereas crashes are all too common.
I make no claims as to what input the bikers had, but the situation would never have arisen if the cop hadn't performed such an ill-advised and dodgy manouevre. It was the place he performed it that makes it ill-advised/dodgy. However, as an HP charged with promoting safety on our roads, and with his training, he should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us, and he deserves our contempt and any pillorying that goes on here.

[Fub@r]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10479720

Hasn't been a good weekend for riders :(

[dmouse]

this happend on saturday we do not really need reminding its been a bad weekend for bikers and others involved

RIP to the fallen

[Flinders]

This is really serious. This Police Officer was so anxious to catch a motorcyclist (allegedly) speeding that he almost killed two other people. The thrill of the chase got the better of him perhaps ?? insufficient training ??? bad Police practice ??

[enigma51]

Cant say I did not see this coming We had a few weekends ago a cop almost taking out a few of us in a similiar situation.



I dont think its poor training but rather presure on the cops to get there "numbers"

[jimbo600]

Nearly happened to me too. Missus was driving us (I was pissed) back to paraparaumu, and just into Mana a chap coming the other way passed going roughly 60-65 kmh. The HP car in front of us veered left then a hard right U-turn without indicating or strobes going and we damn nearly t-boned him. I was right pissed off and tried to get the Doris to turn around so I could give him a serve, but being sober she declined and we tootled off home.

In his overzealous fervour to issue some poor sod a ticket he very nearly caused an accident himself.

I also know of another incident where a HP was across the double yellow center line heading up Kaitoke way and nearly hit a mate and his missus on her bike. My mate stopped behind the cop, who was issuing a ticket to a car for 120 in 100 and declared his annoyance at nearly being hit on his side of the road. The cop took umbrage at this and gave him a ticket for a dirty reg plate (guy had a scottoiler).

However I have also seen a cop with strobes lit wait at the side of the road until he could safely turn around, after a while waiting he gave up, so again its only a few idiots who get all giddy with the chase.

[NighthawkNZ]

You should be reporting these incidents... goes too show that its just not a one off thing that has happened, and there has been many near misses...

As for the dirty number plate and double yellow... againg report it and dispute it, point out it was a near miss and you could have been killed for a messily fine...

[enigma51]

You should be reporting these incidents... goes too show that its just not a one off thing that has happened, and there has been many near misses...

As for the dirty number plate and double yellow... againg report it and dispute it, point out it was a near miss and you could have been killed...

Sorry to say but it goes nowhere
In a sad unspeakable truth what happend this weekend might help. Something serious has to happen before action is taken.... at least thats what I found.

[NighthawkNZ]

Sorry to say but it goes nowhere

If they get enough bloody complaints it does go somewhere... The thing with Kiwis is we don't complain enough we are too laid back

[Mikkel]

It's a very sad thing!
I'm sure, as someone has pointed out elsewhere, that the cop driving the car is in a shitty place as well.


If they get enough bloody complaints it does go somewhere... The thing with Kiwis is we don't complain enough we are too laid back

You'd hope so.

I very much doubt that most cops are going to bother indicating if they're doing a U-turn to pursue a speeding vehicle.
You have to indicate right for 3 seconds and make sure the way is clear if you're doing a U-turn. Can't remember if you're required to stop and pull over to the left before making the U-turn though.

[jimbo600]

You should be reporting these incidents... goes too show that its just not a one off thing that has happened, and there has been many near misses...

As for the dirty number plate and double yellow... againg report it and dispute it, point out it was a near miss and you could have been killed for a messily fine...

Didn't to the first, and in hindsight should have, and in the second example I'm pretty sure he did report it, but was worried about being targeted.

[NighthawkNZ]

Didn't to the first, and in hindsight should have, and in the second example I'm pretty sure he did report it, but was worried about being targeted.

With this latest incident you should re-report... what is it going to take... an injury, a death or how many deaths will it take two, three, yours...

Now I have nothing against cops doing a chase to a certain degree chases can be done safely by the cop, the person running is the one not being safe then... but when it doings others in danger... I think that goes a little far don't you... Generally speaking the Police and HP are doing a tough job, and in my point of view do ok, but they should be just as accountable for there actions on the roads as much as well are...

"To serve and protect..." hmmmm

[Patrick]

Shit driving deserves reporting, doesn't matter if it is a boy racer or a marked patrol car.... I guarantee you something is done about it!!!! Seen colleagues get tickets for failing to indicate at roundabouts, not stopping at stop signs, careless use for U turns in front of following traffic, just to name a few.... locally, and in Auckland in this new age of Policing. It happens!

[puddytat]

Thanks for the post. It clears a lot up but I'm a bit confused. Nothing new there. Was it north or south of the swing bridge? Either way it is pretty tight round there.

When the riders come right they will be able to tell their side of the story. Hope they will make a full recovery.

It was south of the Swingbridge,bout 1-2 ks past the old Newton Livery...

[Katman]

So Patrick, was the end result worth the attempted pursuit?

If you're answer is "no", if the cop had managed to catch the speeding motorcyclist but left two wrecked bikes and bodies in his wake would it then have been worthwhile?

[HenryDorsetCase]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4310163a11.html

note that the bikes hit the passenger side of the cop car, which implies they were FOLLOWING the lead bike.

Anyone who has driven through there will know why it isnt a good road to be doing a U turn on.

Nice bikes too :(

I hope the riders recover. Look at the dent in the tank on the Duc. If that guys child fathering days werent over before this, I suspect they are now.

[Ixion]

This (http://www.stuff.co.nz/thepress/4310146a24035.html)has a piccy from another angle.

No way a Commodore would make a U turn on that road, he was doing a three pointer. Which fits with him being square on across the road with his front in the far side verge.

And the site looks to be mid way through an S bend!

Also note the small amount of damage to the car. Either they're making Commodores out of damn strong steel, or those bikes weren't going that fast (which would fit with the road). The report also says there is no reason to suppose the two that hit were connected with the first one.

[Swoop]

Also note the small amount of damage to the car. Either they're making Commodores out of damn strong steel, or those bikes weren't going that fast (which would fit with the road).
Or both! Commodes have decent panel steel compared with jappa imports.
Perhaps the bikers were riding to the conditions? One wouldn't expect to find a cop car blocking the road in a tight section of turns.
I wonder who paid for the mag wheels on the car?

[Goblin]

You should be reporting these incidents... goes too show that its just not a one off thing that has happened, and there has been many near misses...

Nearly happened to a mate of mine too. Cop was parked up on the opposite side, standing outside his car pointing at me. I only just caught him out the corner of my eye cos of sunstrike. I immediately indicated to pull over. I couldnt stop right there as the road was narrow and drivers going in the same direction would have sun in their eyes too, so I pulled into the rest area about 50 meters away. Meanwhile the cop jumped into his car and U-turned right in front of my mate who was following me. He had to brake hard to avoid T-boning him. The cops left side front fender was covered in grass and dirt, he'd plowed up the grass verge in his panicked CHASE! I was told I was doing 90 in a 70 zone and because my speedo cable was broken I had to take his word for it. I asked to see his gadget to prove my speed and it said 90kph so I asked how can I be sure that was my speed and not the last person he pinged. He says "Oh you can trust me!"
A couple of days later we did a speedo test with both bikes and I was doing 5k in fourth gear which is 80km/h. I knew it was a 70 zone so was just bumbling along slowly. If I was speeding I wouldn't have bloody well stopped!

[avgas]

in my mind there are too many things wrong here to point finger. basically everyone sounds like they fucked up here. the cop, the riders.....everyone.

[riffer]

Until the truth comes out you're all speculating.

I would suggest it would be best to wait until this happens. There's definitely a story behind this one.

[spudchucka]

No way a Commodore would make a U turn on that road, he was doing a three pointer.

Perhaps they need to reinstate the hand-brakie as a legitimate 180 degree turn option?

[scumdog]

Can't remember if you're required to stop and pull over to the left before making the U-turn though.

If you drive a new model Commode you do - they have the crappiest turning circle of any rear-wheel drive I've driven yet barring my '66 Thunderbird.

And they have massive blind-spots due to air-bags in the front pillars and the shape of the rear ones.

And stability/traction control makes doing a 'fancy' U-turn tough going.

So all-in-all I don't like doing U-turns on anything other than SH1 unless I can find a side-road or gate-way etc.

[Maha]

in my mind there are too many things wrong here to point finger. basically everyone sounds like they fucked up here. the cop, the riders.....everyone.


Right on the money avgas....the sequence of events leading up to what happened, has a big part to play. I haven't read the everyone views on the accident but 1...if that other twat biker heading the other way had been riding at a relatively legal speed then it would not have happened, the cop should have been awear of the other bikes behind him, the bikes that hit him? did they not see this happening? perhaps they thought the cop knew they were there and he would wait for them to go past?...who knows?...thats why you are on the money mate!

[Crasherfromwayback]

I know at least one of the guys involved well...and while that group ride quite quickly at times...they're very safe hugely experienced riders. Speedy recovery guys!

Pete

[White trash]

This (http://www.stuff.co.nz/thepress/4310146a24035.html)has a piccy from another angle.

No way a Commodore would make a U turn on that road, he was doing a three pointer. Which fits with him being square on across the road with his front in the far side verge.

And the site looks to be mid way through an S bend!

Also note the small amount of damage to the car. Either they're making Commodores out of damn strong steel, or those bikes weren't going that fast (which would fit with the road). The report also says there is no reason to suppose the two that hit were connected with the first one.
I love the way the poor old Police always think their quotes through carefully.

"We had two bikes that hit a vehicle, but because it involved a police vehicle, and because of the likely public scrutiny, we have to ensure everything is done properly."

What? When a cop's not involved you don't do things properly? God I'm a shit stirer......

[cruza]

Used to travel this road a lot in trucks, any lame person knows its not 100% safe to do 3 points turns on the narrow sweeping corners thru this area.You have to be careful even overtaking cyclists on the sweepers .These were older riders, and looking at the impact/photos ,they had fark all time to do anything. pretty clear the Cause of crash

[doon12]

So what are we going to do and make our voice heard in this instance and keep the cops honest. My thoughts were contact my local mp or lobby the police, let them know we are intensely interested in the outcome of this happening.

[Sparky Bills]

I know both riders.
The cop car wasnt turning to chase a bike, it was turning to chase another car!
Then tried to arrest to TVNZ photographer taking the pics, THEN tried to move his car away from the scene!
Both of the guys involved know what they are doing on a bike theres no doubt about it. And are both VERY nice guys aswell.
Heres hoping they both pull through.

[jimbo600]

I know both riders.
The cop car wasnt turning to chase a bike, it was turning to chase another car!
Then tried to arrest to TVNZ photographer taking the pics, THEN tried to move his car away from the scene!
Both of the guys involved know what they are doing on a bike theres no doubt about it. And are both VERY nice guys aswell.
Heres hoping they both pull through.

Holy shit is that right! in that case there's a serious case to answer to. especially as the police have ratified a new police act. The media have some serious issues to answer to as to the individual officer involved if what you say is correct.

Tried to arrest the photographer? On what grounds? And the police press release states that he was traumatised.

Jeez mate you've opened a can 'o' worms here

[ajturbo]

2 weeks ago BuellBabe, Rashika, Dangerouse and I were on that bit of road..........................

funny thing, we had stopped, a guy come up to us and said

" watchout for the cops".... we thought he ment,
# keep and eye on our speeds#........

hope these 2 guys get well soon and the insurance company pays out !!!

[What?]

Well, this story has a familiar ring (http://http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=2082)to it...

[doon12]

Nothing but chatter and I'm gunna. my last post in a brief history. Support your brothers and fuck the cops.

Regards
Brendon

[Wasp]

I wish the riders involved a good recovery

Anyone checking the stuff website lately will notice the image has been removed

heres a copy

[Nasty]

If people are serioud about challenging the investigation you need to contact the independant police conduct authority. the details are: http://newzealand.govt.nz/record?recordid=3337

there are some good arguments on here that need to be raised in the right forum, this is not it, the Conduct Authority is.

[spudchucka]

Holy shit is that right! i

You read it here so it has to be true!

[doc]

You read it here so it has to be true!

If we believed everything you said on this site the system never got it wrong. We all make mistakes, sometimes you have to take it on the chin. The feminine way is to blame everyone else. Sometimes not commenting is a better example from your arena. Let everyone vent off, cool down, then present the facts when everybody is listening. You not done grief 101 yet ?

[puddytat]

2 weeks ago BuellBabe, Rashika, Dangerouse and I were on that bit of road..........................

funny thing, we had stopped, a guy come up to us and said

" watchout for the cops".... we thought he ment,
# keep and eye on our speeds#........

hope these 2 guys get well soon and the insurance company pays out !!!

Twas I,...you often see 3-4 mufti & a HP car or 2 on your average ride round here & weve had our moments with dodgey driving by the HP,one real close shave on the Coast road from Westport to Greyhole,when the "Wally" Uturned in front off us in a similar situation....
The Buller Gorge is an awesome ride but really rather dogey in places, i personally know of three seperate incidents where people either tried a U-e or pulled over for a break & once on the grass proceeded to slip over the edge...there is just no room to pull safely over along most of its length.Considering the traffic using it it lacks barriers & some of the famous cnrs like Helicopter cnr have had several cars either go over or come close to it. Also those farking one lane bridges are so dangerous!! There would be atleast 5 accidents a year between them, often tourists who struggle with a winding road & staying in the correct lane,let alone getting thier heads around one lane bridge protocol or seeing the pathetic signs showing who gives way....sorry, I digress...

[skidMark]

from the police chief of that unit ( i think) in the stuff article..

"At this stage, it's an accident that has some unusual aspects. We had two bikes that hit a vehicle, but because it involved a police vehicle, and because of the likely public scrutiny, we have to ensure everything is done properly."


so what since it's a police car they ensure it's done properly...

does this mean they do not normally?

oh this other crash doesnt involve police so fuckit well do a halfarse job so we can get back to dishing out tickets...and have lunch?

dickheads:angry:

[kr250]

Try a u turn in front of a police bike and see where you stand, double standards?

[spudchucka]

You not done grief 101 yet ?

I've just graduated "not giving a stuff 2007".

[MaxB]

On my way back to work this morning I was travelling north along Roscommon Road when a cop pulled out on me from a free turn, no signal, no give way nothing. This is not unusual for up here. The road was packed and everyone was well under the speed limit. I could only move to the right hand lane to avoid it. I was pretty angry but stopped myself from mouthing off, after all I had seen his bullshit move coming a mile off.
When I looked into the car he had what looked like er frequent customers of his in the back seat and they were all talking/shouting at once. He was coming from the direction of ther new womens prison so maybe there was a clue there. He looked pretty stressed.
In any case he allowed himself to get distracted and almost caused an acciedent. I reckon as the cops become more and more stretched they are going to make even more mistakes.

[spudchucka]

In any case he allowed himself to get distracted and almost caused an acciedent. I reckon as the cops become more and more stretched they are going to make even more mistakes.

A fair comment is a rare thing around here.

[Patch]

Bugger being the poor lads coming round the corner and seeing no where to go. Whats the bet, the chap in ICU hit the rear wheel - worse possible place to hit a car (over the wheels), aim for the doors if you have too.


People do dumb things, doesn't matter what uniform they wear, gotta feel for the cop, betcha he's hating that decision to u-turn where he did about now.


Here's hoping the three chap's pull through ok, mentally and physically.

[mdooher]

The strange thing about the cop doing the threee point turn on a bend was the backing he was getting from his boss. He seemed a pains to indicate that it would be someone elses fault.
Very strange because in my experience Police management usually hang their staff out to dry.

Thinking of U turns reminds me that when the southern motorway went in in Dunedin a few years ago the paper interviewd a cop that wanted breaks in the cheese cutter so he could do U turns and chase speeding drivers.

If this is the kind of thinking of the modern police driver I think they need a serious slapping.

[Paul in NZ]

Terrible situation for everyone - sympathy to the poor guys injured as it must have been a real buttock clencher and I would have hated to have to deal with that on the road.

As a casual observation, there is too much misplaced anger here...

Some bikers always trot out the line 'we must support them as they are brother bikers' but are amazed that the Police have a natural tendency to support their brother officers? I'm fairly sure some kind of justice will be done but it will take a bit of time for everything to fall out.

In the short term - to those that know the 2 gents concerned, the real question is, 'is anything we 'brother bikers' can do to assist them or their families while they are injured?'

[terbang]

Anyone doing a youey, for whatever reason, on a bend and taking out a couple of bikers is a dick and needs a severe shafting with the law. Cop, Joe bloggs or whoever, it shouldn't change things, he's still a dick.. Christ, over here they'd cut he's head off for it, kinda makes people a bit more careful.
Such a shame people who were enjoying a ride lost their lives because of stupidity. RIP bikers.

[Paul in NZ]

Anyone doing a youey, for whatever reason, on a bend and taking out a couple of bikers is a dick and needs a severe shafting with the law. Cop, Joe bloggs or whoever, it shouldn't change things, he's still a dick..

And I'm sure he feels a real dick as well but how about doing something to help your brothers rather than wasting energy getting angry at a guy that made a mistake he will undoubtedly pay for...

Remember that It is not the situation that makes the man, but the man who makes the situation. You can't change whats happened and you can't help your 'brothers' by spouting venom here but maybe you could do something constructive to help?

[slimjim]

my only problem is when thy showed the police car on the new's there was no side damage to the cop car all the damage was frontal - damage on the car ?

[Katman]

after all I had seen his bullshit move coming a mile off.........


..........and almost caused an accident.

Sorry, if you saw his move a mile off why was there almost an accident?

[terbang]

And I'm sure he feels a real dick as well but how about doing something to help your brothers rather than wasting energy getting angry at a guy that made a mistake he will undoubtedly pay for...

Remember that It is not the situation that makes the man, but the man who makes the situation. You can't change whats happened and you can't help your 'brothers' by spouting venom here but maybe you could do something constructive to help?

So pointing out stupidity, instead of cops, costing a life on a public forum wont provoke thought huh... Have a wee think about the spouting venom words there mate..

[Paul in NZ]

So pointing out stupidity, instead of cops, costing a life on a public forum wont provoke thought huh... Have a wee think about the spouting venom words there mate..

Good grief.... I give up....

[oldrider]

Without any intention cop bashing, my wife and I have witnessed too many of these dangerous U-turn maneuvers by Police cars, over the last few years.

On at least one occasion, we very nearly got the same treatment as the victims of the above incident!

Police car we were following (without warning) pulled quickly hard left swung back out into the road and completed a fast U-turn.

I began to veer right to clear his fast left, then had to get round the back of him as he swung across in front of us! (Oh so close)

Our combined 90 years of motorcycling experience went into overdrive and just got us through that one by a whisker!

We were not happy motorcyclists for quite a while after that on that trip.(Shaken and very very stirred)

I tend to stay well back when following Police cars now because of that incident! :calm: John.

[Joni]

Good grief.... I give up....Indeed... I think you should too....

People want to bitch and persecute at the moment... talking sense does not come into it at this stage.

[Nasty]

The strange thing about the cop doing the threee point turn on a bend was the backing he was getting from his boss. He seemed a pains to indicate that it would be someone elses fault.
Very strange because in my experience Police management usually hang their staff out to dry.

Thinking of U turns reminds me that when the southern motorway went in in Dunedin a few years ago the paper interviewd a cop that wanted breaks in the cheese cutter so he could do U turns and chase speeding drivers.

If this is the kind of thinking of the modern police driver I think they need a serious slapping.


Sorry guys .. but no matter what if I screw up at work I expect to have at least some backing from my boss - not be left to be screwed over in public by the grilling that people who were not there are doing. This guy is suffering .. don't think that he isn't ... he made a huge mistake ... behind the scenes he is getting caned about that ... so we need a public flogging to assage the anger .. if so bring on the 1800's.

[skelstar]

Good grief.... I give up....
Agreed +1 ... no sense in talking sense sometimes.

[Finn]

RIP bikers.

I don't think they died did they?

[terbang]

Oh I dunno might have my accidents mixed up, just in case they did..

[terbang]

Indeed... I think you should too....

People want to bitch and persecute at the moment... talking sense does not come into it at this stage.

Remember some of our kind got knocked down recently and one of them at least due to an irresponsible act by another mororist. Well Joni what do you reckon? A slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket and sweep it all under the mat only to come back and bite one of us in the arse again? Or, make some noise to get to the bottom of it and set an example to prevent it happening again.? Seems you would rather redicule motorcyclists who actually do care about the laxity of some of our road users (and enforcers as it appears). This is a motorcycle forum, not a chamomile tea drinking forum OK..

[et al]

Leaving aside all the gossip, rumour and comment surrounding the circumstances of the accident - I just want to pass on my best wishes for the recovery of the injured riders. My thoughts are also with their friends and family.

[Kickaha]

Remember some of our kind got knocked down recently and one of them at least due to an irresponsible act by another mororist. Well Joni what do you reckon? A slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket and sweep it all under the mat only to come back and bite one of us in the arse again? Or, make some noise to get to the bottom of it and set an example to prevent it happening again.?

So why isn't that applied to the single biker crashes then? instead of all the sympathy that generally gets heaped upon them, it seems every other road user is fair game but motorcyclists protect their own even if they do fuck up

[lemure]

Without any intention cop bashing, my wife and I have witnessed too many of these dangerous U-turn maneuvers by Police cars, over the last few years.


Police car we were following (without warning) pulled quickly hard left swung back out into the road and completed a fast U-turn.

I began to veer right to clear his fast left, then had to get round the back of him as he swung across in front of us! (Oh so close)

John.

Same thing happened to us last weekend - no indication either. Four-laned road, Police car did exactly as you described. I was following him in a car about three car lengths behind, so just braked hard and he crossed about three metres in front of us. Another car had passed us in the opposite direction immediately prior, so was partially expecting something. But it gave us a real fright - had a funny taste in mouth afterward: know what that was - fear! This manoeuver must be standard training for them.

[NighthawkNZ]

Someone in BRONZ needs to approach the the complaints authority, as well as AA and other groups and assiotions, clubs etc if they all start say enough is enough then something will start rolling... because if nothing happens about it another tragedy will and the next one there may not be any survivers... what wll it take ?

Near misses like this should not happen, and all involved need to be accountable for there actions...

But again I know the police and even the HP do have a hard job, and overal are doing a pretty good job, but...

[terbang]

So why isn't that applied to the single biker crashes then? instead of all the sympathy that generally gets heaped upon them, it seems every other road user is fair game but motorcyclists protect their own even if they do fuck up

Well I would like to think that it is. It is normal to empathise with your own kind when they get hurt or killed and try to find out why to stop it happening again. Right? In this case someone was hurt (I wrongly thought killed) because of someone elses dumb mistake, so lets try to prevent it happening again. Right? So lets get out of the touchey feely ACC mentality and get real. A lot of accidents can be prevented and one of the best ways to do this is by using the ones that do happen as a tough lesson. Sometimes this means direct talk and correction for those individuals who acted in an irresponsible fashion. In other words, leave them and all of us with no doubt as to our responsibilities as road users (let alone enforcers) and take heed. In that way the loss of life and limb will not have been in vain.

[Joni]

So how do you propose we do that? What is the solutions in your mind? You say "Time to get real"... ok, fair enough.... how?

My issue is not about finding a solution in the least. Anything that can can be done, should be done, I agree! My issue is people sitting on KB flopping around bitching about what happened... that is not a solution, that is a little bit of fart wind that maybe makes the poster feel better about it/themselves.

Nighthawk, your suggestion is great. Why not PM Ixion? Although Im sure he will see the post at some stage...

[terbang]

So how do you propose we do that? What is the solutions in your mind? You say "Time to get real"... ok, fair enough.... how?

My issue is not about finding a solution in the least. Anything that can can be done, should be done, I agree! My issue is people sitting on KB flopping around bitching about what happened... that is not a solution, that is a little bit of fart wind that maybe makes the poster feel better about it/themselves.

Nighthawk, you suggestion is great. Why not PM Ixion? Although Im sure he will see the post at some stage...
Start by twriting to the police, your MP and even to Helen herself. The squeaky wheel will get oiled, if it squeaks loud and long enough.
Any action, especially a collective one, starts with some discussion and this is a board for motorcyclists to discuss things motorcycle right? And need I point out the public nature of this forum as I am sure Ixion and similar will read this. I think Joni that we are marching to a similar tune, but your problem is with the language which is obviously different to yours. But people are different as you should know only too well. Whilst accusing people of only flopping around and bitching on KB, you might also expand your scope of thought that some of those floppers are also possibly doing the same to appropriate authoritys. You are a moderator, not a judge OK..

[Joni]

You are a moderator, not a judge OK..Actually I am neither...

But yes I get your point about us being on the same lines of thought...

[Pixie]

I've seen some of our "highly trained professionals" do some astoundingly stupid manoeuvres on the road.
A recent one was a U-turn across three lanes of traffic ( including a passing lane ) on the Raukaka straight in heavy evening traffic,which had cars on both sides hitting the brakes heavily.
This was to stop a truck.Maybe they get extra quota points for trucks.
I wonder if it was the same Whangarei "highly trained professional" that put his car in the mangroves near Onerahi.

[Pixie]

Or both! Commodes have decent panel steel compared with jappa imports.


Bullshit.all manufacturers use the same guage high strength low alloy steel and the Japanese brands regularly score higher in aussies own crash test regime.

[Katman]

So why isn't that applied to the single biker crashes then? instead of all the sympathy that generally gets heaped upon them, it seems every other road user is fair game but motorcyclists protect their own even if they do fuck up

At last, some of you are starting to echo what I've been saying all along about the 'Biker Down' threads.

(Can I have my privileges back now please).:msn-wink:

[MD]

Thank you to those well wishers. I've just got home from the ferry.

These are my friends and I was riding down with them in the morning of the crash.
I can't say too much for obvious reasons as I am the supposed/alleged speeding motorcyclist in question and subject to the enquiry.

My friends are in terrible shape with injuries I can't list. The one airlifted to Wgtn is very serious. He would not have survived the golden hour if an off duty Doctor and paramedic hadn't been coming through the gorge. They apparently worked frantically to keep them alive. We can't thank them enough.

I guess I can clarify a few points which I noticed the media got wrong.
1. There were two riders hurt. One on a 999 and the other on his new pride and joy, a Benelli 900Tre.
2. They are Wgtn riders, not from Nelson
2. the Cop was heading east and stopped to do a u-turn to chase a single bike heading west.
I can't say anymore on that. I did not find out about the crash until that night when I reached Fox Glacier- I travelled on my own as I wanted to visit Relatives down the Coast. The remainder of the group went to Karamea from the accident scene.
The next morning (Sun 2nd) I went back to comfort my friends, visited the scene and meet the others at Murchison. Then we went to Nelson Hospital.

On Monday I realised the Police were looking for this alleged speeding Rider.

I went to a local police station to make a statement. That was a weird feeling. As I approached a policeman he said, you aren't this guy are you as he pulled out a piece of paper with my name on it. He said there was a Police notice out to stations to locate me. Spooky.
I can say that the Policemen that interviewed me were compassionate, understanding and in no way biased towards either party. The head of the PCA enquiry was called at the time.
I know what the Cop checked this riders speed at. Don't be mislead by the dramatic 'speeding' word used by the police/media, minor infringement comes to my mind. Certainly not worth the risk taken to issue a ticket.

I challenge anyone to attempt a U-turn at that spot in a Mini, let alone a large car with a poor turning circle. I photographed the area. I stood where the riders would have first appeared, I stood where the car pulled over. I know what I saw.

As I said, I can't comment on much until the enquiry is over apart from what's been in the News.
Get well Guys

[Skyryder]

It's 50/50 as to who could be at fault. Time and investigation will tell. No point in jumping to any conclusions.

Not as I understand the law. It is 100% driver responsibility to 'safely pull out from the kerb. Don't need to be a rocket scientist to 'know' the cop did a u turn in an unsafe place. He took a chance and two bikers paid for it. The only doubt I have is what 'bike' the cops will say is at fault. The one the cop says was speeding and did the u turn to chase or the bikes that hit the car.

The cop fucked up............ period.

Skyryder

[ajturbo]

Perhaps they need to reinstate the hand-brakie as a legitimate 180 degree turn option?

welllllll we got away with that ..infront of a cop!!!!... said the brakes were sticking and had ajusted them.... a bit too much.. hahahahahahaha ( back in 1984)

[Katman]

MD, one question - is the photo in your avatar of you? (Yes, I realise the photo is taken at a race track but if it is you, it speaks volumes).

[skelstar]

Shit MD, thats no good dude. Hope yer alright.

[cruza]

Nice to hear MD ,You know how most people feel here, thanks for the comments, Photos of scene do kinda sum it up.

[Paul in NZ]

MD - Sad news mate.... Thanks for the information.

Going back (in time) - is there anything I can do to help these 2 guys?

Cheers

[et al]

Thanks for the update MD, it should put to rest a lot of the mis-information and speculation that has been around. Here's hoping for the best possible outcome for the injured riders. Will be a difficult time for you as well, please stay strong and look after yourself.

[Sanx]

Shit driving deserves reporting, doesn't matter if it is a boy racer or a marked patrol car.... I guarantee you something is done about it!!!! Seen colleagues get tickets for failing to indicate at roundabouts, not stopping at stop signs, careless use for U turns in front of following traffic, just to name a few.... locally, and in Auckland in this new age of Policing. It happens!

Sorry dude, but that's simply not true. I've personally reported a few cops for doing fucking stupid things, by phone (*555) and on two occasions gone down to a cop shop to report it in writing. Every single time, there was absolutely sod all done. I've had a sergeant call me and tell me that the cop in an unmarked black Commodore screaming up and down my residential street (I watched him for about 45 minutes) at speeds of well over 100kph and crossing a yellow line on an S-bend, all on a sunny weekday afternoon about school closing time, was perfectly correct in doing so so he could give drivers tickets for doing 65kph, although he grudginly admitted using a camera van might have been a better idea. I made several phone calls to a Sergeant John Sharpe of the Strategic Traffic Unit to find out what was happening about one of his officers (whose name and number I provided to the Sergeant) who I saw commit criminal damage. Never a returned phone call or a letter; nothing.

My personal experiences with the cops in Auckland have left me with nothing but the utmost contempt for all those involved in traffic policing. They do fuck all to help road safety (in some cases, they actively make the roads more dangerous), they don't go after dangerous drivers and at times certain officers seem to deliberately go out of the way to act in a manner that's almost guaranteed to piss most reasonable people off (which leads to a general dislike of the Police, whatever role an officer performs).

I'm not the sort of person to label all cops as rapists just because a couple of animals happened to wear the uniform (in fact, I've backed you up on this in another thread a long time ago). I'd like to think I can differentiate between circumstances and situations. I understand that the majority of cops do a very hard job under extremely difficult conditions for little recognition. However, cops will almost always stand by their own; at least publically. The inspector who made the report on this case - if quoted correctly - was guilty of using deliberately inflammatory statements which were designed to immediately minimise the blame attached to his officer. He pretty much blamed the accident on another speeding motorcyclist. And yes, this was before the SCU had been to investigate the accident, so he didn't have the full picture either. I sincerely hope the full story will be made public, but I suspect it will be downplayed as usual and any resulting prosecution trivialised.

[jimbo600]

From the stuff web site

]"The police officer came over and asked me if I was OK, and I asked him what the hell he was doing parked in the middle of the road," said Russell.

"His response to me was that we were speeding."

Russell had not had an apology from the police, who took a statement from him on Saturday when he was in intensive care.

A self-employed builder-electrician without income insurance, Russell would like to discuss financial compensation with the police to help support his family over the next six months while he recovered.


What a cunt. So you can just block off the road in order to catch speedsters now then?

And taking a statement while being in intensive care?? WTF I know its important to get statements asap but for fucks sake wait till the mans lucid at least.

I hope this fucker is hung out to dry. He's bad for bikes, for road safety, and indeed with actions and comments like the above bad for the police.

[scumdog]

From the stuff web site

]"The police officer came over and asked me if I was OK, and I asked him what the hell he was doing parked in the middle of the road," said Russell.

"His response to me was that we were speeding."

Russell had not had an apology from the police, who took a statement from him on Saturday when he was in intensive care.

A self-employed builder-electrician without income insurance, Russell would like to discuss financial compensation with the police to help support his family over the next six months while he recovered.


What a cunt. So you can just block off the road in order to catch speedsters now then?

And taking a statement while being in intensive care?? WTF I know its important to get statements asap but for fucks sake wait till the mans lucid at least.

I hope this fucker is hung out to dry. He's bad for bikes, for road safety, and indeed with actions and comments like the above bad for the police.

The 'stuff' stuff is all fact?? Wow!

[Ixion]

Link to the article here (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4312248a10.html)

Do you know a different version of the events Mr Scumdog ? The paper quotes the person directly involved.

[RantyDave]

The 'stuff' stuff is all fact?? Wow!
Dude, there's a picture of a police car on the wrong side of the road, mid corner, completely side on with two bikes buried in the side of it. There's a guy in hospital lucky to be alive and another missing a chunk of his thumb. None of these things are even remotely debatable.

The cop caused the crash. C'mon, admit it. The cop caused the crash. A cop very nearly killed one biker and had a solid go at another. It's completely black and white and I, for one, am fucking furious.

Tell me again, what was the thing about better work stories?

Dave

[slimjim]

MD, Well Done, Col

[Paul in NZ]

Nothing is ever totally black and white apart from magpies and even they have strange coloured bits.

Like most people I was pretty ticked off when I read that article as well. It seemed pretty obvious the police car driver screwed up big time and made a nearly fatal mistake yet I'm also cynical enough to realise that ALL of us;

1. Will project our own actions in a relatively favourable light.
2. In a state of shock - say daft things.
3. Behave stupidly at times.

The job of the courts is to see through all this, determine the facts and determine responsibility.

In my own life - I have made many stupid decisions, often while I'm working. For example, I used to do a LOT of live power connections. Not poofy household power but great big juicy power cables with a LOT of 'splat' factor behind them. These are usually safe as houses but lets just say - there have been times when things didn't exactly go to plan.... I musta done hundreds and hundreds of these joints and yet a couple of times I was not as careful as I could have been.... People could have been hurt.... I was lucky.

I'll bet that officer could have been faced with the decision to turn and pursue 1000 times and 999 times he may have made a different decision but this time - he didn't - bad things happened - the court will decide if he needs to face the consequences.

That means the man potentially screwed up - Go to any wrecking yard in this country - visit the back of any bike shop - talk to panelbeaters or insurance brokers - people screw up EVERY day - often with worse consequences. It happens - we are human...

If you want to show you care - do something positive to help these people or is the only pleasure we get from anger and violence?

[Marmoot]

The only reason why this becomes an issue is that IF it was an average joe doing the u-turn he would have been prosecuted in less than a few days. But since it was a cop, they have investigations, time delays, political washouts, etc.

Meanwhile the situation is the same: someone did a u-turn while failing to ascertain clear situation (e.g., 200m visible road, etc? whatever the rule says)

Talking about a law for everyone...
Or are law-enforcers above the law?

I would've expected those responsible for upholding the law to be better than their subject at following the law itself.

[owner]

cops fault bad driving

[Marmoot]

cops fault bad driving

cop's bad driving? or motorcyclists' bad driving?

[terbang]

Its all about personal responsibility and professionalism. In my job, if I screw up, then I most likely die along with a lot of others in a very publiuc fashion. That tends to make me and my kind rather cautious and responsible in our jobs, no matter what the desire or heat of the moment tells us.. So we naturally tend to put the word SAFETY very high (at the top) of all decisions. A good incentive I reckon...
Do the words "orchestrated lytinay of lies" jolt any memories? Organizations try to wriggle out of their responsibilities, pay good money for spin and to divert the blame onto some poor minion at the bottom of the pile. My guess is the poor cop (stupid, but possibly inadequatly trained, cop) will get shafted and the speeding bikers will also get shafted. We'll hear no more while the latent failures, possibly being police chase policies or a novel quota system, behind this accident remain intact.

[jimbo600]

The 'stuff' stuff is all fact?? Wow!

Well it was in colour and everything. Must be true.

[orange dog]

MD, All the best to you and your mates, I feel sick everytime I think about it.

[orange dog]

As Bikers often ride in groups I would have thought Police driver training would include 'checking to make sure the lead motorcycle was not a part of a larger following group' let alone using common sense when doing a u-turn on a relatively narrow and turning country road.
Still... I bet the cop is feeling pretty sick too. I just hope this hard learnt lesson saves others in the future.

[White trash]

MD, good on ya for the post mate, it sheds a little light on a simply horrible event. I bet you're feeling pretty shitty right now.

Please pass on my regards to B when you see him.

[Skyryder]

cop's bad driving? or motorcyclists' bad driving?

I'll try and answer the question.

The injured rider claimed immediately after the accident, that the officer said he was speeding. This needs to be addressed as it now appears that the cop is going to try and blame the bikers that crashed into the car.
It has been reported that the officer was in pursuit of another biker and called off the chase. It is not public knowledge if the chase was called off and the cop reset his radar only to have it go off on another biker heading towards him or he called off the chase in respect of the oncoming biker allegedly speeding. There is only two possibility for a radar speed record. Either it was still preset on the original chase or the cop had turned it off and had recorded the oncoming biker.

Either way at the point of the u turn the cop is on record as saying there was nothing coming (from behind) so he commenced the turn. On this basis the radar would not have been able to record the speed of the first victims bike. The injured rider has claimed that he was cruising in between 90 to 95k’s. So the cop would have had to get a visual speed reading all while commencing a three point turn which is different as originally reported: a u-turn as in one single maneuver. Now I am an experienced road user. I don’t know if I have more experience that the cop in question but one thing I do know is that it is impossible to estimate the accurate speed of oncoming vehicles. Yes you can make judgment calls in respect of estimated time for you to get clear of say an intersection with oncoming traffic but there is no way that you can get an accurate fix visually so as to be able to judge speed accurately. There are physically optical reasons why this is so. SO HOW DID THE COP KNOW THAT THE ONCOMING CRASHED BIKER WAS SPEEDING?

The cop fucked up and his first response was to protect himself. That I can understand. What I find difficult to understand is when that support is based only as a colleague. I have a great deal of respect for many officers but when their support is only based on being a collegue they need to seriously question their ethics.
Skyryder

[bell]

Policeman in Buller crash back on patrol
The Nelson Mail | Wednesday, 05 December 2007 (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4313243a6007.html?source=RSSnelsonmail/headlines_20071205)

The Blenheim police officer at the centre of a serious crash with two motorcyclists was back on full duty on Wednesday, while one of the riders remained in a critical condition in hospital.

Senior Sergeant Tony Bernards of Nelson police said Sergeant Tony Bridgman returned to work with the Marlborough highway patrol on Wednesday after he was placed on sick leave immediately after Saturday's Buller Gorge accident.

An investigation, which would look at the scene, the crash, and the actions of Mr Bridgman and the Wellington motorcyclists, was continuing and was being overseen by the Independent Police Conduct Authority.

Mr Bernards hoped to have some findings in about three weeks.

Police had spoken to one of the motorcyclists, Brent Russell, who was Wednesday morning in a stable and comfortable condition in Nelson Hospital.

They had not spoken to the other rider, Marty Collins, who was in a critical condition in Wellington Hospital's intensive care unit.

Mr Russell said from his Nelson Hospital bed on Tuesday that he saw the police patrol car in his path as he straightened his motorbike out of the Buller Gorge corner, near where the crash happened.

"I can remember thinking, `What the hell do I do here?'," he said.

Unable to brake, Mr Russell's $32,000 Italian bike hit the patrol car's front wheel, catapulting him over the bonnet and 10m down the road. He landed on a grass verge, breaking his pelvis, smashing his right arm and ripping the end off his right thumb.

Police said the accident happened when a patrol car was turning to pursue a speeding motorcyclist.

Mr Russell, 57, said police needed to address the safety aspects of their pursuit policy.

He questioned the logic of an officer doing a three-point turn on the narrow road to pursue a vehicle for the sake of a possible $300 speeding fine.

Besides their serious injuries, the crash wrote off his 2007 Benelli 900 motorcycle and Mr Collins' 2005 Ducati 999, as well as the new highway patrol vehicle.

Mr Russell and Mr Collins were with a group of motorcyclists who had been heading for the West Coast, stopping at Murchison before travelling through the Buller Gorge.

Mr Russell said the group was not bunched, and he and Mr Collins were cruising between 90kmh and 95kmh.

However, the trip came to a crashing end, about 8km down the gorge.

When his body finally tumbled to a stop, Mr Russell checked himself before taking off his helmet and gloves, without noticing the end of his right thumb was missing.

"The police officer came over and asked me if I was okay, and I asked him what the hell he was doing parked in the middle of the road," said Mr Russell.

"His response to me was that we were speeding."

Mr Russell said he had not had an apology from the police, who took a statement from him on Saturday when he was in intensive care.

A self-employed builder-electrician, who does not have income insurance, Mr Russell would also like to discuss some form of financial compensation with the police to help support his family over the next six months while he recovers.

Mr Bernards said a North Island motorcyclist had given a statement to Picton police on Tuesday in relation to the accident.

"We believe he may have been the motorcyclist clocked by the officer involved (in the crash)," said Mr Bernards.

[scumdog]

The only reason why this becomes an issue is that IF it was an average joe doing the u-turn he would have been prosecuted in less than a few days. But since it was a cop, they have investigations, time delays, political washouts, etc.

Meanwhile the situation is the same: someone did a u-turn while failing to ascertain clear situation (e.g., 200m visible road, etc? whatever the rule says)

Talking about a law for everyone...
Or are law-enforcers above the law?

I would've expected those responsible for upholding the law to be better than their subject at following the law itself.


Bollocks

Bollocks

and More Bollocks

Already you've made your mind up on part of the story and mentioned a shitload of semi truths/ myths. - fuckin hope I NEVER see YOU in a jury.

Nice frkn troll.

[SPman]

Its all about personal responsibility and professionalism. In my job, i........................................... intact.

It would be good if we could apply aviation standards of investigation and follow up, to traffic accidents,instead of immediately looking for someone to blame, to shift all responsibility, with everyone trying to cover their own arse.

The way it seems to be currently handled, situation scenarios and the reasons behind the causes of accidents like this are overlooked in the general shit slinging, blame laying, bun fight, that invariably happens. A little bit more of the "why did this happen and what can be done in future to prevent incidents like this, particularly in the actions of a professional driver", without immediately laying or trying to avoid blame, would surely help.
Look at the cold, hard facts, analyse how and why and work out responses to try to avoid the same thing happening again, in the real world.
When you start blaming people for actions which may or may not be avoidable under the circumstances, all you do is alienate everyone and leave more resentment and bad feeling, which works counter to the effect you are trying to achieve.

Remember the Polices handling of the Palmerston North air crash! The plane crashed - charge the pilot with several counts of manslaughter! An action which helped nobody and almost had a pilots revolt in NZ!

MD - thanks for the background - hope your mates are on the mend - it's not nice to come over a hill or around a corner and find the road full of turning car - god knows, it happens often enough, you'd think drivers would actually think, before they actioned!

[scumdog]

cop's bad driving? or motorcyclists' bad driving?

PROBABLY bad driving by the cop I suspect.

But hey, let's just say that anyway, why wait for the full story.....

[mickeyboy]

STUFF TODAY (When his tumbling body finally came to a stop, Russell checked himself before taking off his helmet and gloves, not noticing the end of his right thumb was missing.
"The police officer came over and asked me if I was OK, and I asked him what the hell he was doing parked in the middle of the road," said Russell.
"His response to me was that we were speeding."
Russell had not had an apology from the police, who took a statement from him on Saturday when he was in intensive care.
A self-employed builder-electrician without income insurance, Russell would like to discuss financial compensation with the police to help support his family over the next six months while he recovered.)

How ? Why ? who he was chasing etc etc is irrelevant. The issue is the cop blocked the road on a corner and was hit by 2 following vehicles that happened to be motorcycles, could have been a sheep truck, campervan or family sedan. Here's a test go and park a car across that same piece where the cop was hit and see how long it takes before another vehicle plows into the side of it, I would guess by looking at the photo of the scene on Stuff.co.nz it would be carnage in a very short time. The police officer was wrong , full stop. The road is twisty and narrow and enjoyable on a bike, the bike riders have done the trip 14 times , they deserved to be able to travel from Wellington and enjoy their trip with mates and not have to factor in that some glorified commision salesman in pursuit of his next sale would put their lives at risk in pursuit of issuing another invoice to some unsuspecting punter. It's ironic that in the so called pursuit of "road safety" the authorities by their actions have done exactly the opposite. Nice the officer or his superiors have called into see or phoned the riders and wish them well in their recovery, not a thing ! The officer is on sick leave ? what for ? The riders are are the ones sick !!!!!!!!! Very sick indeed , lucky not be dead !!!!!!!

[NighthawkNZ]

PROBABLY bad driving by the cop I suspect.

But hey, let's just say that anyway, why wait for the full story.....

Theres a full story... you are kidding right... nah but its much more fun speculating and making up theories and playing CSI and ... :lol:

[breakaway]

"His response to me was that we were speeding."

What a fucking tool.

[Marmoot]

Bollocks

Bollocks

and More Bollocks

Already you've made your mind up on part of the story and mentioned a shitload of semi truths/ myths. - fuckin hope I NEVER see YOU in a jury.

Nice frkn troll.

Strange to see you posting with such vigor instead of your calmer usual tone. Is that the defend-the-corpse instinct?

And, regarding the 1st "bollocks", one of my relatives recently got charged for careless driving as the police made up their mind very shortly following an incident where a vehicle banged onto his car as he pulled out of a street, and the letter said that it is the normal policy to charge careless driving in any accident involving injuries. Meanwhile, in this situation it is already been made clear no decision will be made for at least two weeks (implying a much slower process and a PROBABILITY that no charges will be laid despite injuries involved). Different law for one and the other?

The 2nd "Bollocks" talked about one law for everyone. You say this is bollocks?

The 3rd "Bollocks" talked about the responsibility for law enforcers (a.k.a. Police) to be better than their subject at following the law IF not AT LEAST follow the law. You say this is bollocks too?

You know what Mr. Scumdog? Actually i am starting to agree with you here...



Tell me, where are the myths in what I said, apart from my assumption that the Police would have to at least follow the law too?


P.S.

fuckin hope I NEVER see YOU in a jury.
Is that a threat, Mr. Scumdog? If so, is this a reflection of the attitude of NZ Police?

[Ixion]

PROBABLY bad driving by the cop I suspect.

But hey, let's just say that anyway, why wait for the full story.....

Why do you think the "full story" will ever be revealed? Assuming that there IS any story beyond what is already quite clear .

The smash is being investigated by the local police (whose position is already encapsulated by the response of Sgt Bridgman "You were speeding"): the Serious Crash Unit , more police, who are scarely likely to come to any conclusion that puts their mates and collegues in the pooh : and the Police Whitewash Authority. No need to say more about that last one, more police investigating police.

A cop stuffed up. It happens, to cops as well as other mortals.FWIW, I personally don't think the cop should be pinged any harder than any other driver who made such a stuff up. But, no less either. And that is what is rankling with people, the fact that there is already every sign of yet another cover up and blame shifting exercise.

[98tls]

PROBABLY bad driving by the cop I suspect.

But hey, let's just say that anyway, why wait for the full story..... Xactly......when the powers that be arrest someone with as they see it dubious evidence the tree huggers come out calling fair play yada yada but as soon as a cop looks like he may have made a fuckup its hang him on the spot.

[Marmoot]

A cop stuffed up. It happens, to cops as well as other mortals.FWIW, I personally don't think the cop should be pinged any harder than any other driver who made such a stuff up. But, no less either. And that is what is rankling with people, the fact that there is already every sign of yet another cover up and blame shifting exercise.

exactly my point. Thank's Mr. Ixion.

No more, BUT no less!

[Mom]

The driver of the car that executed a three point turn, in a place where it may or may not have been safe to do so, made an error of judgement causing serious injuries to 2 other road users.

That investigations need to be done is sensible and proper, no doubt, the driver will face charges if found to be at fault, or will he?

If that driver had been me, and not a police officer, I have no doubt that by now I would be facing some quite serious driving charges, that I could either accept, or defend in court.

Hope this wraps up soon, the longer it hangs around the more balanced minds will tilt to bagging the cops for protecting their own and showing 2 rules apply depending on what you do for a living.

[Paul in NZ]

The road is twisty and narrow and enjoyable on a bike, the bike riders have done the trip 14 times , they deserved to be able to travel from Wellington and enjoy their trip with mates and not have to factor in that some glorified commision salesman in pursuit of his next sale would put their lives at risk in pursuit of issuing another invoice to some unsuspecting punter. It's ironic that in the so called pursuit of "road safety" the authorities by their actions have done exactly the opposite. Nice the officer or his superiors have called into see or phoned the riders and wish them well in their recovery, not a thing ! The officer is on sick leave ? what for ? The riders are are the ones sick !!!!!!!!! Very sick indeed , lucky not be dead !!!!!!!

jeepers calm down

police accident are investigated differently because they are the police and it needs to be carefully and properly done as they do have different rights and obligations when on duty.

yeah - he was across the road, he did a stupid thing- but - the road is through the bush - it could have been a dead tree or a landslide, a 1000 things and they could have been going too fast - we don't know - let the court sort it out, it's what they do... If you want to do something - help these guys out by setting up a fund or something.

If you want to burn someone go burn the tourists the KILLED 4 bikers with their piece of shit campervan

[jimbo600]

Bollocks

Bollocks

and More Bollocks

Already you've made your mind up on part of the story and mentioned a shitload of semi truths/ myths. - fuckin hope I NEVER see YOU in a jury.

Nice frkn troll.

I'd have to +1 on Scummy here. If anything cops are subject to more scrutiny than the rest of us joe public. They certainly do not look after their own. Operation insight anyone?

[Scouse]

Hi MD
I hope all goes well for you I am particularly respectfull of the way you took yourself to the Police that gives me the feeling that you are a man of great integrety and also someone who's freinds mean a whole lot to you, fantastic.

[Daffyd]

If you want to burn someone go burn the tourists the KILLED 4 bikers with their piece of shit campervan

TV1 News tonight said that, "An Austrian Tourist has been charged with, 'Careless use of a motor vehicle causing death'.

[Paul in NZ]

TV1 News tonight said that, "An Austrian Tourist has been charged with, 'Careless use of a motor vehicle causing death'.

Exactly - 4 people killed and only just charged.....

[scumdog]

Exactly - 4 people killed and only just charged.....

Yeah well ya see thats 4 less people to interview - but those who ranted about the other crash (Marmoot?) want the cop charged before all involved have been interviewed......

OH, and Marnoot, you weren't the only one to think like that, not picking on you alone....
And the 'jury' comment? - it was with regard to forming a conclusion without waiting to find out all the available facts - it was NOT a threat.

[Marmoot]

... it was with regard to forming a conclusion without waiting to find out all the available facts ...

makes me wonder how can a crash where 4 people died can get the facts found out faster than a crash where everyone in there lives.

Is it "waiting to find out all the available facts" or "waiting for the facts to be filtered as usual" when it involves the government apparatus?

Is it easier to get the facts out of non-police than from police? If so, would that mean 'different treatments'?

So much for 'everyone is equal in the eyes of law'...

[scumdog]

makes me wonder how can a crash where 4 people died can get the facts found out faster than a crash where everyone in there lives.

Is it "waiting to find out all the available facts" or "waiting for the facts to be filtered as usual" when it involves the government apparatus?

Is it easier to get the facts out of non-police than from police? If so, would that mean 'different treatments'?

So much for 'everyone is equal in the eyes of law'...

Yeah well you have a point there - 'course it's a tad awkward to obtain a blokes statement when he's in a coma....<_<:whistle:

Whereas 4 dead bikers and two relatively unharmed camper-van occupants are a little easier to get statements from.:innocent:

[98tls]

makes me wonder how can a crash where 4 people died can get the facts found out faster than a crash where everyone in there lives.

Is it "waiting to find out all the available facts" or "waiting for the facts to be filtered as usual" when it involves the government apparatus?

Is it easier to get the facts out of non-police than from police? If so, would that mean 'different treatments'?

So much for 'everyone is equal in the eyes of law'... WTF.....be careful as you jack off as chances are there is a camera or 2 in your house already.

[Skyryder]

Xactly......when the powers that be arrest someone with as they see it dubious evidence the tree huggers come out calling fair play yada yada but as soon as a cop looks like he may have made a fuckup its hang him on the spot.

Not when there is a motorcyclist that has been injured. We get a bit gung ho on this: it could have been one of us. There's some phsycology going on here. KB is a community of like minded souls and when a biker gets taken out we rally in support of said biker. In this case the biker cops on here have not done this. They appear to be in support of their collegue. Some here appear to be a bit pissed off about that.

Skyryder

[98tls]

Not when there is a motorcyclist that has been injured. We get a bit gung ho on this: it could have been one of us. There's some phsycology going on here. KB is a community of like minded souls and when a biker gets taken out we rally in support of said biker. In this case the biker cops on here have not done this. They appear to be in support of their collegue. Some here appear to be a bit pissed off about that.

Skyryder Utter bullshit........have been riding for 30 odd years and have owned more than that bikes wise so consider myself a motorcyclist.KB is a website....simple.i am not supporting anyone and if you read my previous posts that will be obvious.Facts are its a shitty suituation for all concerned but as usual on here it brings out all the crystal ball owners.The cops a human being just as the rest of us are and if he fucked up he has done so as a human being.Not that hard really i wouldnt have thought.Amazing what people come out with from the sanctuary of there lounge.

[bell]

makes me wonder how can a crash where 4 people died can get the facts found out faster than a crash where everyone in there lives.

Is it "waiting to find out all the available facts" or "waiting for the facts to be filtered as usual" when it involves the government apparatus?

Is it easier to get the facts out of non-police than from police? If so, would that mean 'different treatments'?

So much for 'everyone is equal in the eyes of law'...

Your cynicism would appear to prevent you from viewing this objectively.

I challenge you to try.

[Pex Adams]

Yeah well you have a point there - 'course it's a tad awkward to obtain a blokes statement when he's in a coma....<_<:whistle:

Whereas 4 dead bikers and two relatively unharmed camper-van occupants are a little easier to get statements from.:innocent:

You also forgot to mention the 20 or so other witnesses, who watched a campervan doing cartwheels over a couple of bikes, on the wrong side of the road.

Nonetheless, to the guys in hospital, I hope the boys in blue pick up the tab for everything (including the cost to get you back on the road, with a couple of expensive italian stallions). You guys deserve a golden handshake! I wish you all the best in a fast and speedie recovery.

[Skyryder]

Utter bullshit........have been riding for 30 odd years and have owned more than that bikes wise so consider myself a motorcyclist.KB is a website....simple.i am not supporting anyone and if you read my previous posts that will be obvious.Facts are its a shitty suituation for all concerned but as usual on here it brings out all the crystal ball owners.The cops a human being just as the rest of us are and if he fucked up he has done so as a human being.Not that hard really i wouldnt have thought.Amazing what people come out with from the sanctuary of there lounge.

30 years you are beginner compared to myself. Not that that is an issue but you raised it.


Well if I am so wrong why all the agro. Bottom line it has been reported that cop has claimed the biker was speeding. So shortly after the accident the cop blamed the biker. I've written lengthy piece on this. Perhaps you would like to read it and comment.

Skyryder

[98tls]

30 years you are beginner compared to myself. Not that that is an issue but you raised it.


Well if I am so wrong why all the agro. Bottom line it has been reported that cop has claimed the biker was speeding. So shortly after the accident the cop blamed the biker. I've written lengthy piece on this. Perhaps you would like to read it and comment.

Skyryder No agro at all,will do and will do.

[Fatjim]

fuckin hope I NEVER see YOU in a jury.


Thats precious, coming from the font of impartiality that is Scumdog.

Sorry to hear about your mates Mark, pass on our best wishes.

Thats was a nice Binelli too.

[98tls]

Thats precious, coming from the font of impartiality that is Scumdog.
Verging on pathetic........the guys a cop so that makes him impartial? Knowing the guy i can honestly say a more even keeled guy would be harder to find.

[mstriumph]

ten characters

[mstriumph]

..............., it seems every other road user is fair game but motorcyclists protect their own even if they do fuck up

erm ......... like a large proportion of the police force, you mean?:corn:

[98tls]

erm ......... like a large proportion of the police force, you mean?:corn: Do tell..........

[candor]

makes me wonder how can a crash where 4 people died can get the facts found out faster than a crash where everyone in there lives.....

So much for 'everyone is equal in the eyes of law'...

I don't think the FACTS are out faster - maybe never. It appears the driver may not have been breathalysed ??? given they weren't interviewed til an extended time after the crash. Perhaps not equal treatment for tourist who was not paying attention so strayed left... then apparently overcorrected.

Too many crashes associated with quota fixation (& increases) lately imo. Feel sorry for all involved. Except Treasury staff; should burn in hell.

[terbang]

WTF.....be careful as you jack off as chances are there is a camera or 2 in your house already.

If you lack the ability to add anything constructive to either side of the debate. Then don't.

[spudchucka]

In this case the biker cops on here have not done this. They appear to be in support of their collegue.

By my count I've made four posts in this thread, (this is the fifth).

I have not openly supported either the bikers involved, the cop involved or the police as an organisation.

You looneys get so fired up and start beating your cyber chests whenever there is a story in which a cop may have screwed up you all get tunnel vision and are blind to the fact that the known facts are minimal at this stage.

You know how it goes Skyrider, sort how in murder cases where the bodies are never discovered but there's a local scum bag that might fit the profile quite nicely the police can be accused of having tunnel vision, deciding he's the guilty party and then building a case to support their assumption that he did it????

On the face of the little I know about it it does appear to me that the main likely causative factor will be a miss-judgement or poor decision making on the part of the cop. However the bikes could also have been doing warp factor nine and not in the cops field of view when he began the U-turn.

I do find it interesting that two bikes collected him. Were they riding two abreast? Seems a little odd to me considering it was a fairly narrow and winding section of road, (its a gorge isn't it?).

Most bikers I've ever ridden with ride single file through gorge type roads, they tend to want to enjoy the corners and use the whole width of available lane to flick the bike around the twisties. Which is something they can't do that well two abreast.

If they were riding single file and not doing warp factor nine then at least the second rider should have had a better chance of avoiding collision, having just seen his mates fate?

Speculation, granted but having been to my fair share of crashes these are the questions that run through my mind, not how high can we hang this poorly trained, quota lusting, revenue gathering highway patrolling piece of crap.

I know the extent that the serious crash teams go to and have seen the reports that they produce. They will investigate the crash completely and totally honestly. The factors involved will be known, in time.

If its totally the cops fault then go ahead and bay for his blood but at the moment you're just engaging in a virtual vigilante, get the posse together, ride out and hang the bastard from a tree crusade.

We're all pissed off whenever bikers get hurt regardless of the circumstances but it wouldn't hurt people to just shut their mouths and wait for the facts.

[Kendog]

You looneys get so fired up and start beating your cyber chests whenever there is a story in which a cop may have screwed up you all get tunnel vision and are blind to the fact that the known facts are minimal at this stage.

Totally agree with your entire post and you have described the KB world to a t.

[NighthawkNZ]

If they were riding single file and not doing warp factor nine then at least the second rider should have had a better chance of avoiding collision, having just seen his mates fate?


If riding single file and at the same speed (what ever that may be) the first bike hits... there is no reason why the second wouldn't hit as well... on a tightish corner, the second rider is in the same situation as the first... "Oh fuck, whats a cop car parked on a corner like that for...that my mate has already hit"

The possibility is now the second bike also has to content with the wreck of the first bike as well... the the road block there long enough with no warnings up the road and a third or fourth vehicle could have been involved.

To me sounds like a bad judgement call on the spot the cop tried to do a 3 point turn. But I am not going to judging anyone of anything like a few here... I don't know all the facts of the case.

[idb]

My thoughts;
The cops, as enforcers of the law, should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us.
You should never travel so fast that you can't stop in the visible clear road ahead of you.
You risk perpetrating an injustice, or at least making an arse of yourself, if you take a position before being in possession of all of the facts.

[NighthawkNZ]

My thoughts;
The cops, as enforcers of the law, should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us.
You should never travel so fast that you can't stop in the visible clear road ahead of you.
You risk perpetrating an injustice, or at least making an arse of yourself, if you take a position before being in possession of all of the facts.

That too... :stupid:

[scumdog]

Thats precious, coming from the font of impartiality that is Scumdog.

Before you get onto the 'KB cop-bashing wagon' just think about my comment.

I made it in reference to people jumping to half-assed assumptions of 'guilt' before being in possession of all the relevant facts.

Would YOU want to face a jury that is armed with only half-assed info to make a judgement on your fate??


(Sorry about the 'asses' Mr H.)

[Usarka]

Would YOU want to face a jury that is armed with only half-assed info to make a judgement on your fate??


Their full of half-arsed people anyway. you've got to be pretty stupid to not get off jury service......

[spudchucka]

Their full of half-arsed people anyway. you've got to be pretty stupid to not get off jury service......

At least as stupid as the fools who end up going up in front of the jury, which is indicative of the "tried by a jury of your peers" mantra.

[idb]

Their full of half-arsed people anyway. you've got to be pretty stupid to not get off jury service......

I consider it my duty for the privilege if living in a free and democratic society.

[Squiggles]

We're all pissed off whenever bikers get hurt regardless of the circumstances but it wouldn't hurt people to just shut their mouths and wait for the facts.

Everyone covers their asses so for the full story we'll just have to wait for the crash report like you've said

It's a tragedy that an accident even occured at all, that said, i hope those involved are well and make a speedy recovery. :)

[NighthawkNZ]

Their full of half-arsed people anyway. you've got to be pretty stupid to not get off jury service......

I didn't mind doing jury... I more peed off that I didn't get on a murder case, but just a fraud case... oh well next time...

[Katman]

Whereas 4 dead bikers and two relatively unharmed camper-van occupants are a little easier to get statements from.:innocent:

Fuck me, I get flamed for my comments in Biker Down threads and you get away a flippant comment like that???

[MD]

I probably should stay off here. I visited the rider in Wgtn yesterday. What can I say besides I was in tears. It was hard to recognise him. Thanks again to the kind words everybody.

Bike mishaps always trigger soul searching about how we ride. That's a natural reaction.

I want to say thanks to my sweet Wife who forever supports my love of bikes and would never ask me to give up something I enjoy so much. The injured riders Wives have displayed the same attitude. As you can guess some of my friends and family are on the "it is time to grow up and quit those damn dangerous bikes" wagon.

I have no love for the Cops that have given me tickets over the years, but I always accept it's their job and I asked for it.

If it was me in question on Saturday, if he had come after me, then so be it, I would have pulled over at first sight of red & blues and politely as always taken the ticket on the chin. It was not a major licence losing event.

Lets remember this Cop did not wake up that morning and think, Today to be different I'm going to go out and inflict pain and suffering on some motorists and stuff up their lives. His intention like other days would have been to patrol the roads as usual.

However, whenever I hear of cops going to extremes and taking risks on behalf of their employer to issue a simple 'exceeding the posted limit ticket' my blood boils. I believe the blame lies with the employer and the Govt that seem to be driving, forcing I suspect, the mentality down to the rank and file cops - must issue tickets, must issue tickets..must issue tickets...
How many more incidences like this before the pressure is taken off the Police? Drunk Mum doing 146km in a 50 zone with 3 unrestrained kids- now that was a case where extreme action to intervene was warranted and paid off.

Let the officers have the discretion to make the choice not to pursue every minor ticket.
I doubt we will hear any decision from the PCA until they get to speak with the Rider in a coma, which could be some time.

[Marmoot]

Your cynicism would appear to prevent you from viewing this objectively.

I challenge you to try.

Sorry I'm kind of lost there. "Try" what?

P.S.
FYI i wasn't even being cynical :eek:

[MSTRS]

If its totally the cops fault then go ahead and bay for his blood but at the moment you're just engaging in a virtual vigilante, get the posse together, ride out and hang the bastard from a tree crusade.

We're all pissed off whenever bikers get hurt regardless of the circumstances but it wouldn't hurt people to just shut their mouths and wait for the facts.

I agree with 'waiting for facts'...but by the time those facts have been filtered :devil2: through the system and are released to us plebs, 100 more shocking things have occurred and taken our attention.
The facts are in this thread already... One bike travelling a little over the limit, followed at a distance by two others travelling at 95ish. Cop travelling in the opposite direction pings the speeder, decides to give chase and immediately performs a 3 point turn in an area of very limited visibility. He straddles both lanes and the 2 other bikes enter the curve and have nowhere to go. BANG and BANG!!!
It's that simple.
If the cop involved is back on duty as stated in here earlier, then shame shame shame.
When any cop is involved in a serious matter, isn't it standard practice for that cop to be put on full pay suspension until the 'facts' are sorted??

[Sanx]

However, whenever I hear of cops going to extremes and taking risks on behalf of their employer to issue a simple 'exceeding the posted limit ticket' my blood boils. I believe the blame lies with the employer and the Govt that seem to be driving, forcing I suspect, the mentality down to the rank and file cops - must issue tickets, must issue tickets..must issue tickets...
How many more incidences like this before the pressure is taken off the Police? Drunk Mum doing 146km in a 50 zone with 3 unrestrained kids- now that was a case where extreme action to intervene was warranted and paid off.
Let the officers have the discretion to make the choice not to pursue every minor ticket.

What really needs to happen is a return to the whole point of road policing; making the roads safer for all road users. This current government have become fixated on speed. The only research they deem worthy of not is that that supports their fixation (namely, anything that comes out of Monash). The Police need to be freed from political interference and pressure and simply go back to ensuring that the actions of driver do not present a risk to the public. 112kph on an empty motorway does not. 49kph in the pouring rain with limited visibility on a residential street may very well present a danger, despite it being under the posted limit.

Unfortunately, Labour is a party who are slowly working towards their utopian goal of a fascist state where every last vestige of free will has been signed over to the government, supposedly for the good of the country as a whole. Until Labour realise that people are capable of doing the right thing most of the time and, by virtue of actually being there, are much better at assessing things like a safe and reasonable speed on a particular road at a particular time than any ivory-towered bureaucrat.

In this case, the evidence tends to indicate that the cop concerned made an error of judgment, and that error of judgment had some pretty severe consequences. However, this particular officer's screw up and the government's speed-nazi attitude are not really related. The current counter-productive fanatical fixation on speeding, although enforced by the Police, is the result of the government's political aims.

[Nasty]

You have to admit it is amazing how quickly the bikes no longer parked on the path and found other places to go .... quite stunning really.

[Usarka]

I made it in reference to people jumping to half-assed assumptions of 'guilt' before being in possession of all the relevant facts.

Would YOU want to face a jury that is armed with only half-assed info to make a judgement on your fate??


I'd be surprised if most cops weren't pissing themselves lauging and high fiving down at the station after hearing that (unconvicted) Kahui got run out of town in northland while on bail granted by the courts......

:Offtopic:
:stupid:

[vifferman]

What really needs to happen is a return to the whole point of road policing; making the roads safer for all road users.
Yeah, the "reduce the road toll campaign" has lost the plot somewhere along the way.

[spudchucka]

If riding single file and at the same speed (what ever that may be) the first bike hits... there is no reason why the second wouldn't hit as well...

Oh sure, that's a given....... assuming of course the rider of bike two was either asleep or stuck up bike ones exhaust pipe.

[terbang]

Firstly MD, good thing you did there by facing up to the police and your involvement. You are part of the analysis of this incident and if all others involved were as honest as you, then we will see an honest outcome and perhaps some preventative measure. Sadly, human nature means that not all will face up to their responsibilities and some will remain in 'Arse covering" mode. The truth will become clouded.



Lets remember this Cop did not wake up that morning and think, Today to be different I'm going to go out and inflict pain and suffering on some motorists and stuff up their lives.

Your comment above is correct and only a murderer would think otherwise. However, how many of these guys, professional road users I hope, actually think, 'today my intention is to conduct my affairs with safety to others first.'? Clearly this guy didn't as he committed a basic and very lethal act, something that even a biginner is taught not to do, just so that he could get on the chase..!
Joe bloggs car driver seems to be pretty thick now days judging by the myriad of comments we see here (KB)and perhaps we need to up skill NZ drivers. But I see professional drvers (cops included) in a different light. They get paid to be on the road, they make their livings there, so one would expect a higher standard of performance. Right? No-one is perfect and mistakes get made, thats human and we all know that, but doing a youey in the middle of a bend, especially by a so called professional, is unacceptable. Lets hope they (NZ Police) face up to that and put measures in place to stop a re-occurance.

[NighthawkNZ]

Oh sure, that's a given....... assuming of course the rider of bike two was either asleep or stuck up bike ones exhaust pipe.

Just because its the second bike doesn't give it any more time to react...

[MSTRS]

Just because its the second bike doesn't give it any more time to react...

He did react, otherwise the first bike would have got an exhaust raping. Second guy tried to go around?? Still nowhere to go.

[spudchucka]

Just because its the second bike doesn't give it any more time to react...

Assuming bike one applied the brakes its a safe assumption that bike two would have had more warning, at least two seconds more if they were following the Peter Brock rule.

[NighthawkNZ]

Assuming this and assuming that... how about waiting for the full story to come out and let the SCU do their job and the not making any judging... we weren't there, so we don't know

[spudchucka]

Assuming this and assuming that... how about waiting for the full story to come out and let the SCU do their job and the not making any judging... we weren't there, so we don't know

How about ever body just shuts the F*&K up and does some F&%kin work for a change.

I'm on a day off so I'm allowed to waste my time if I want to, the rest of you loafers pull ya bloody heads in start paying your taxes so I can get pay rise.

[HenryDorsetCase]

By my count I've made four posts in this thread, (this is the fifth).

I have not openly supported either the bikers involved, the cop involved or the police as an organisation.

You looneys get so fired up and start beating your cyber chests whenever there is a story in which a cop may have screwed up you all get tunnel vision and are blind to the fact that the known facts are minimal at this stage.

You know how it goes Skyrider, sort how in murder cases where the bodies are never discovered but there's a local scum bag that might fit the profile quite nicely the police can be accused of having tunnel vision, deciding he's the guilty party and then building a case to support their assumption that he did it????

On the face of the little I know about it it does appear to me that the main likely causative factor will be a miss-judgement or poor decision making on the part of the cop. However the bikes could also have been doing warp factor nine and not in the cops field of view when he began the U-turn.

I do find it interesting that two bikes collected him. Were they riding two abreast? Seems a little odd to me considering it was a fairly narrow and winding section of road, (its a gorge isn't it?).

Most bikers I've ever ridden with ride single file through gorge type roads, they tend to want to enjoy the corners and use the whole width of available lane to flick the bike around the twisties. Which is something they can't do that well two abreast.

If they were riding single file and not doing warp factor nine then at least the second rider should have had a better chance of avoiding collision, having just seen his mates fate?

Speculation, granted but having been to my fair share of crashes these are the questions that run through my mind, not how high can we hang this poorly trained, quota lusting, revenue gathering highway patrolling piece of crap.

I know the extent that the serious crash teams go to and have seen the reports that they produce. They will investigate the crash completely and totally honestly. The factors involved will be known, in time.

If its totally the cops fault then go ahead and bay for his blood but at the moment you're just engaging in a virtual vigilante, get the posse together, ride out and hang the bastard from a tree crusade.

We're all pissed off whenever bikers get hurt regardless of the circumstances but it wouldn't hurt people to just shut their mouths and wait for the facts.

This is the internets. There is no place here for sensible reasoned comments such as the above. Kindly desist, and join in the torch burning, pitchfork carrying crusade.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Sorry dude, but that's simply not true. I've personally reported a few cops for doing fucking stupid things, by phone (*555) and on two occasions gone down to a cop shop to report it in writing. Every single time, there was absolutely sod all done. I've had a sergeant call me and tell me that the cop in an unmarked black Commodore screaming up and down my residential street (I watched him for about 45 minutes) at speeds of well over 100kph and crossing a yellow line on an S-bend, all on a sunny weekday afternoon about school closing time, was perfectly correct in doing so so he could give drivers tickets for doing 65kph, although he grudginly admitted using a camera van might have been a better idea. I made several phone calls to a Sergeant John Sharpe of the Strategic Traffic Unit to find out what was happening about one of his officers (whose name and number I provided to the Sergeant) who I saw commit criminal damage. Never a returned phone call or a letter; nothing.


Did you take it any further? Ombudsman? PCA? The Minister? Clint Rickards?

[Fatjim]

Before you get onto the 'KB cop-bashing wagon' just think about my comment.

I made it in reference to people jumping to half-assed assumptions of 'guilt' before being in possession of all the relevant facts.

Would YOU want to face a jury that is armed with only half-assed info to make a judgement on your fate??


(Sorry about the 'asses' Mr H.)

I'm not commenting on the accuracy of your statement, just the irony.

[MSTRS]

Did you take it any further? Ombudsman? PCA? The Minister? Clint Rickards?

Them? Pfft!! He spoke with that fine chap Dewar....

[Ixion]

Lets remember this Cop did not wake up that morning and think, Today to be different I'm going to go out and inflict pain and suffering on some motorists and stuff up their lives. His intention like other days would have been to patrol the roads as usual.



No. Of course he did not. But maybe he did wake up and think "Today, I'm really going to crack down on speeders, and get my ticket count up. And get Senior Sergeant off my back , griping about our district perrformance indicators. Speeders, watch out". Which determination would colour his decision to do a turn in an unwise location.

Also, most people seem to be assuming that the car was stationary when the first bike came round the corner. There's no evidence of that, and it's more likely that the car was still swinging across the road (someone commented that those Commodores have big blind spots, too) . First rider hit it by the front wheel and went over the bonnet (his statement). By the time the second rider arrived 2 seconds later the car was stopped across the road. He hit at the rear (almost made it round the rear ? :bye:) , and wasn't lucky enough to go over. Difficult to take effective avoidance action when you encounter a large obstacle just as you exit a corner.

The one exception to the "stop in clear distance ahead" is when someone turns in front of you, without warning.

[Fatjim]

Here's my prediction, and going by the rugby world cup you'd be a fool not to put a twenty on it.


The rider of the first bike will be prosecuted.

The riders of the other two will be warned.

IF the police issue a statement then it will essentially say that in HINDSIGHT, the police officer possibly should not have performed a three point turn in that location, but the speeding is dangerous and taken very seriously by the police blah blah blah and the rider of the first bike is the root cause of the accident.

[Fatjim]

Also, most people seem to be assuming that the car was stationary when the first bike came round the corner.

Hard to imagine the portable pig sty was stationary at all until hit by the first bike.

[Skyryder]

Assuming bike one applied the brakes its a safe assumption that bike two would have had more warning, at least two seconds more if they were following the Peter Brock rule.

Not neccessarily so. The assumption that you make is based on the so called two second rule. The two second rule is applied to moving vehicles travelling at the same speed so as to reduce rear end crashes. It can not be applied to a stationary vehicle or one nearly so at the end of a bend.

The two bikes have been reported at traveling about 90 to 95k's. We do not know the diistance between bike one and bike two so unless you are privy to information denied to us bike one could have crashed before bike two was round the bend. So brake lights do not apply.

Even if both bikes were in closer proximity the brake lights of bike one may not have been a factor for bike two to avoid the cop car. (The big unknown here is the exact position that the cop car did the u turn in relation to the end of the bend and the visual distance oncoming traffic had to avoid any obstacles when exiting the bend.) The cop car to all effects was in a stationary position. Perhaps not completly stopped but nearly so in the three point turn. Bike two would not have had any more warning than bike one reguardless of the any brake lights that may have been employed. The corner had not changed the car had not changed which leaves a simular distance at which both bikes saw the danger..............and a simulare distance in which to take evasive action............which clearly they were unable too..............because the cop perfomed and unsafe manouvre. I don't need to wait for reports red tape interviews etc. to see who is at fault on this one. And I make no apology for my cynicism in this. I watched the interview by the cop on Sunday night and it was a PR job to mitigate circumstances in the polices drivers favour. He called the manouvre a U Turn............... it was not. It was a three point turn. There is a difference and that is why the cop called it a U Turn. It is performed faster and there more acceptable.

Skyryder




PS We can all speculate and that is what makes this thread interesting. What is not under speculation is that the cop claimed the bikers were speeding. I for one would like to know what this is based on.

[mstriumph]

........................You risk perpetrating an injustice, or at least making an arse of yourself, if you take a position before being in possession of all of the facts.

erm ...:corn:...... like a proportion of the police force, you mean?








.... do tell? well, true, it's the west aus police that are currently in the news but ........... it's no co-incidence that the term 'fit up' has entered the language :(

[mstriumph]

Originally Posted by NighthawkNZ
If riding single file and at the same speed (what ever that may be) the first bike hits... there is no reason why the second wouldn't hit as well...Oh sure, that's a given....... assuming of course the rider of bike two was either asleep or stuck up bike ones exhaust pipe.

... and YOU are the one that is saying that WE have prejudged the situation? :confused:

[Skyryder]

By my count I've made four posts in this thread, (this is the fifth).

I have not openly supported either the bikers involved, the cop involved or the police as an organisation.

You looneys get so fired up and start beating your cyber chests whenever there is a story in which a cop may have screwed up you all get tunnel vision and are blind to the fact that the known facts are minimal at this stage.

You know how it goes Skyrider, sort how in murder cases where the bodies are never discovered but there's a local scum bag that might fit the profile quite nicely the police can be accused of having tunnel vision, deciding he's the guilty party and then building a case to support their assumption that he did it????

On the face of the little I know about it it does appear to me that the main likely causative factor will be a miss-judgement or poor decision making on the part of the cop. However the bikes could also have been doing warp factor nine and not in the cops field of view when he began the U-turn.

I do find it interesting that two bikes collected him. Were they riding two abreast? Seems a little odd to me considering it was a fairly narrow and winding section of road, (its a gorge isn't it?).

Most bikers I've ever ridden with ride single file through gorge type roads, they tend to want to enjoy the corners and use the whole width of available lane to flick the bike around the twisties. Which is something they can't do that well two abreast.

If they were riding single file and not doing warp factor nine then at least the second rider should have had a better chance of avoiding collision, having just seen his mates fate?

Speculation, granted but having been to my fair share of crashes these are the questions that run through my mind, not how high can we hang this poorly trained, quota lusting, revenue gathering highway patrolling piece of crap.

I know the extent that the serious crash teams go to and have seen the reports that they produce. They will investigate the crash completely and totally honestly. The factors involved will be known, in time.

If its totally the cops fault then go ahead and bay for his blood but at the moment you're just engaging in a virtual vigilante, get the posse together, ride out and hang the bastard from a tree crusade.

We're all pissed off whenever bikers get hurt regardless of the circumstances but it wouldn't hurt people to just shut their mouths and wait for the facts.


There has been some criticism for those that see the police hierarchy making statements that are designed to minimize the culpability of the driver. I refer to the statement made on Sunday night of the U turn. It was not a U turn but a three point turn. I've commented on this so will not repeat myself. You accuse others of speculation and deride me for this when you your self are guilty of the same offence. I am referring to your comments on two abreast and related speed matters.

Yes we all could wait for reports etc but the internet and forums are not committee of enquires, they do not have to produce reports etc. They respond to current events and are made up of various types of individuals in this case those that have an interest in bikes.

As a matter of interest the road would be much more dangerous for bikers if there was no HW patrol. We would bear the brunt of that by way of deaths and injuries. But I expect other road users that includes the police to drive in a safe and lawfull manner. This accident was not an error of judgement but a calculated risk that resulted in injuries of two innocents.



Yes that is one alternative, keeping our mouths shut. The other is to hit the ignore button and only leave those that agree with you. But no ones doing that. Are you??

Skyryder

[mstriumph]

Thats precious, coming from the font of impartiality that is Scumdog.

..............

was gonna say that i personally find his comments a darn sight more balanced than most ........ credit where credit is due and all that? :cool:

[nudemetalz]

Without getting into the politics and blame, I read that the 2 bikes were written-off.
One was a 2006 Benelli 900 and the other a Ducati 999. Quite a few $$ worth !!!

[spudchucka]

... and YOU are the one that is saying that WE have prejudged the situation? :confused:

This whole thread is one big assumption. That line you quoted was obviously a piss take FFS!

[spudchucka]

. I am referring to your comments on two abreast and related speed matters.

Couldn't be bothered reading beyond this line.

At least I stated that it was speculation first. See the difference between that and the rest of the thread??? Jesus H Christ this place is a fucken drain on my patience!

Plus I said "these are the questions that run through my mind", not, "I'm a self appointed expert on what ever I feel like being an expert on today and this the truth because I decided it was or because some news paper published it so it most be true"!

[spudchucka]

Not neccessarily so. The assumption that you make is based on the so called two second rule. The two second rule is applied to moving vehicles travelling at the same speed so as to reduce rear end crashes. It can not be applied to a stationary vehicle or one nearly so at the end of a bend.

The crash happened on a bend. The stationary vehicle appeared to be in the middle of the bend. There also appeared to be trees lining the road, a hill or cliff on one side and a drop off of some sort on the other.

Because of the curve and the other factors mentioned the first bike would not be able to see the stationary vehicle until they had clear view past these obstacles. The two second rule has no bearing to this bike.

The second bike, following at a safe distance no doubt, can't see the stationary vehicle at the same moment as bike one, because of the curvature etc. However, he would have likely seen his mates brake lights come on or see the bike swerve or perhaps he even noticed the sudden eruption of brown lumps from the rear of the bike.

So, unless he was asleep or riding two abreast he should have had more warning, at least two seconds if he is good boy, than his mate did before seeing the stationary vehicle.

It is obvious that the two second rule would have help the second rider to some degree.

Once again I couldn't be bothered reading past the first paragraph so no comment on what ever the hell you said after that.

[Marmoot]

The crash happened on a bend. The stationary vehicle appeared to be in the middle of the bend. There also appeared to be trees lining the road, a hill or cliff on one side and a drop off of some sort on the other.

Because of the curve and the other factors mentioned the first bike would not be able to see the stationary vehicle until they had clear view past these obstacles. The two second rule has no bearing to this bike.

The second bike, following at a safe distance no doubt, can't see the stationary vehicle at the same moment as bike one, because of the curvature etc.
...
...


And it is wise to do a 3-point turn in this scenario?
A Highway Patrol police should have known better...


A hypothetical scenario, lets reverse the situation:
Same spot, same weather and time, a driver is pulling a 3-point turn, then a police car/bike goes around the bend and hit the turning car smack on.
How long would it take till the turning driver gets prosecuted...

[spudchucka]

How long would it take till the turning driver gets prosecuted...

As long as it takes to be properly investigated, which is something none of you lot have very much of an idea of at all.

[Coldrider]

And it is wise to do a 3-point turn in this scenario?
A Highway Patrol police should have known better...


A hypothetical scenario, lets reverse the situation:
Same spot, same weather and time, a driver is pulling a 3-point turn, then a police car/bike goes around the bend and hit the turning car smack on.
How long would it take till the turning driver gets prosecuted...
This has happened in Auckland, and that case was settled out of court by the police a month ago, a U turning vehicle collided with a police dog wagon, with lights on, no siren.
There is plenty of 'common law' built up on this, and anyone who has been charged with U turning dangerously will be watching very closely.
There will be no 'good' outcome of this instance no matter what, and the worse case scenario is that U turns can be made when they are morally bankrupt, so to speak.

[Skyryder]

Couldn't be bothered reading beyond this line.

At least I stated that it was speculation first. See the difference between that and the rest of the thread??? Jesus H Christ this place is a fucken drain on my patience!

Plus I said "these are the questions that run through my mind", not, "I'm a self appointed expert on what ever I feel like being an expert on today and this the truth because I decided it was or because some news paper published it so it most be true"!

Yes and you criticise others for doing what you do.........speculate. So whose the pot and the kettle here. You choose.:argh:

Skyryder

[spudchucka]

Yes and you criticise others for doing what you do.........speculate. So whose the pot and the kettle here. You choose.:argh:

Skyryder

The difference is I'm not baying for anyone's blood, I'm not deciding what the cause was, I'm not predetermining what the outcome of the investigation is going to be, I'm not getting out the hang man's noose or rounding up the posse to go and deal to the villain.

And I'm not rallying around the cop involved and defending him, which is what you accused me of back in post 183.

If you can't see the difference I can't be stuffed taking this any further.

[Skyryder]

As long as it takes to be properly investigated, which is something none of you lot have very much of an idea of at all.


Well at least I read all of a post before making comments on it.

Just for you Spud.

Yes we all could wait for reports etc but the internet and forums are not committee of enquires, they do not have to produce reports etc. They respond to current events and are made up of various types of individuals in this case those that have an interest in bikes.

As a matter of interest the road would be much more dangerous for bikers if there was no HW patrol. We would bear the brunt of that by way of deaths and injuries. But I expect other road users that includes the police to drive in a safe and lawfull manner. This accident was not an error of judgement but a calculated risk that resulted in injuries of two innocents.



Yes that is one alternative, keeping our mouths shut. The other is to hit the ignore button and only leave those that agree with you. But no ones doing that. Are you??

Skyryder

[spudchucka]

Well at least I read all of a post before making comments on it.

I only commented on the bit I did read, which was what put me off reading any further.

[spudchucka]

The other is to hit the ignore button and only leave those that agree with you. But no ones doing that. Are you??

Skyryder[/I]

See attachment if you really feel the need to know.

[spudchucka]

This accident was not an error of judgement but a calculated risk that resulted in injuries of two innocents.

Sounds a lot like pre-determining the outcome of the investigation to me!

[avgas]

seems to be alot of head hunting here.
i personally have not swayed anyway in my opinion.
The sheer fact that one bike hit one part of the car and another bike hit another part of the car tells me 1 thing about the riders. They were not riding to the conditions.
The sheer fact that the car was sideways blocking the road tells me one thing, the driver didn't know what they are doing (my previous holden would quite happily do a 2m turning circle, but then we have the loss-of-traction law......)
Everyone one is wrong here, no one wins.
Everybody looses.
Arguing over who is right and wrong in this instance is just sad.

[mstriumph]

This whole thread is one big assumption. That line you quoted was obviously a piss take FFS!

never! :oi-grr:
everyone KNOWS that the constabulary have no sense of humour!!






--- and that WAS a p/t!

[spudchucka]

never! :oi-grr:
everyone KNOWS that the constabulary have no sense of humour!!






--- and that WAS a p/t!

It wears extremely thin at times but hasn't completely deserted me as yet.

[Fatjim]

One thing has just struck me, and no it wasn't the missus.

I know and have ridden with one of the bikers involved, and have met at least one of the others on several occasions, enough to get a general idea as to his character.

Because of that I can make SOME fairly safe assumptions regarding these events. Many of those making comment in this thread do not have this information.

I also know from personal experience that this kind of information may not be considered in the melting pot of the SCU investigation, and this is a pity, because very often the same old trite conclusions of speed are drawn, and very real contributing factors to accidents are not dealt with. One only needs to visit the corner that Uncle B died on last year to see this and it breaks my heart to know that someone so competent and level headed can die, and still the authorities will not deal with real issues.