Balancing riding with family? (or TonyB finally does the right thing)

[TonyB]

Remember that infamous wind-up thread where Blindspots “wife” made an impassioned plea for KBer’s to ‘talk some sense into this guy please’? That was an interesting thread for me, because the things bought up were all too familiar, and now that the dust has settled, I’m interested to see how other people balance their motorcycling addiction with the needs of partners and family- especially high level racers, who pour vast amounts of money into their sport.

So anyway, heres my story. My wife and kids have definitely made some sacrifices so that I could follow my passion, and from some of the replies on ‘that’ thread it was pretty obvious that they aren’t the only ones. Over the years I’ve done some soul searching on many occasions, but to date I’ve always done what suits me, and MrsB has always done what makes me happy…however she has often extracted revenge by teasing me about how much time I devote to bikes. Sometimes she’s not teasing. Sometimes she gets downright nasty about it, and it’s usually deserved.

When I had a road bike I’d do the odd rally, epic day rides etc, and the wife and kids stayed home. My kids have never been to Akaroa, Queenstown, the glaciers or any of the other places I used to go. The money I spent doing this often meant there wouldn’t be enough for other stuff. Then the bike would need $500+ in tyres, or a service or new brake lines or whatever. Being the person I am, I’m selfish, but I’m not blind. I knew damn well what was going on and I often felt guilty. Shortly before I sold the road bike, it got bad enough that it was affecting my riding. I could see from the replies on the Blindspot thread that quite a few guys/gals could see exactly where ‘his wife’ was coming from, even if they suspected it was a wind up. I found it interesting that even more people clearly had an ‘it’s all about me’ attitude and had never considered their partners/ kids or whatever. Each to their own.

Over the 16 years we’ve been together, several times MrsB has sacrificed what she wanted to keep me happy- possibly because she loves me, probably because a grumpy TonyB is not a nice person to be around, so its easier to keep him happy.

This ‘it’s all about me’ thing is something I’ve struggled with throughout the years. And I’m wondering who else has or has had the same thoughts. That’s the purpose of this rambling rant. Maybe you’ve never thought about it and I’ve just introduced the concept of guilt….sorry

So any way, we’re buying a new house- moving in this week actually. A few weeks back, MrsB made an ‘out of the blue’ offer, proposing that we get an extra $X so that I could buy a bike. At first I wasn’t interested at all. But it gnawed at me. I really do miss the road. I started looking on trademe, but in typical selfish fashion realized that the amount we were talking about wasn’t going to get me anything I would be happy with- it would either be grunty enough but old and therefore expensive to maintain/bring up to standard, or fairly new but gutless. Either way I would get tired of it very quickly. I looked at getting a dual purpose bike, but discounted it for similar reasons. I then came up with the idea of importing a lightly damaged bike out of Japan- a few of the guys I race against in BEARS bring in a Ducati every year and wreck it for parts which they use/sell to fund their racing, so I know its possible to bring in a nice bike for the money I had. Eventually my selfish nature won the battle with my conscience, and I was getting a bike. Even up till a fortnight ago when we finalized the loan, I made sure there would be enough for ‘my bike’.

The old conscience was determined though, and was causing me to have some serious doubts. Then last week, I was talking to a work colleague about it. His kids are all grown up, and he said something that really clicked.
“How old are your kids?” he asked
“4 and nearly 6”
“These are the golden years with your kids. Between now and when they start high school, they look up to you. They want to spend time with you. When they hit about 13, pretty much overnight most kids don’t want to know you anymore”

That did it. I remembered the things on our wish list that I had conveniently forgotten- like some more camping gear, kayaks and other toys that we could all use together. So that’s what we’re doing, our house is 10mins from a surf beach, 5mins from Lyttleton harbour and has 500m high hills behind it. My kids should be very familiar with the sea and the port hills. But since dad is always working on/racing/riding bikes or doing what he wants, visits to these awesome places might happen once a month.

Just incase you’re about to say that I must just allowed a HUGE thumbprint to be placed on my forehead….its not quite all martyrdom and sacrifice on my part. I still have a couple of race bikes and they’re not going anywhere, and they will no doubt continue to be money-pits. Plus, aside from the kayaks and assorted toys there is this…other thing…. I’m probably going to buy…well almost certainly. It looks very much like I’m taking up surfing. I’ve been giving it a go with borrowed/hired boards and wetties. I went out on Friday afternoon and stood up for the first time (fark me what an awesome feeling!). I was at the beach at 6:30am on Saturday and 7am today The cool part is that MrsB will be able to use the board and I know she’ll love it. The kids will sort of be able to too- I can sit them on it in the white water and they’ll glide into shore. And when they get their own boards they will quickly become better at it than I ever will. The cool thing is it doesn’t need a rego, warrant, tyres, oil changes, fuel of any kind, and when we/I use it there are few rules, no tickets, no speed limits and no cops. In summer I’ll be able to use it selfishly while the family is still asleep and get some ‘me’ time, and when I progress and need a more advanced model I’ll only loose a few hundred trading up, not thousands.

So I guess all I’m really doing is replacing an expensive, individual addiction with a far cheaper one that can be shared with my family. Damn surfing had better be good, coz I really do miss the road.

[Clivoris]

Yep.......

[200BUSA]

Great write up TonyB i agree with what you are doing,spending time with the kids comes first in most cases.I treasure the time i get with my kids mine are 7 and 10 -even though sometimes on a nice day i would rather be out riding with everyone else.But i dont know about surfing though-maybe golf.The new bike will be waiting when the kids are older.

[yungatart]

When the kids are older you can all go riding together.

Its kinda cool riding along with hubby and son....except when son rides better than me, which is all the time.....maybe its not so cool, after all.

[janno]

You're a good man TonyB. Plenty of people out there who have this epiphany on their death bed . . .

Bet your kids love their Dad! And I bet she who must be obeyed is proud of you.

[TerminalAddict]

worst is when other motorcyclist friends mistake "want time with my family" for weakness.

Although I admit I use it as an excuse as well.

example:
friend 1: want to go do a ride through some (insert suitably dodgy road here)
me: nah, wife wants me to stay home.
My conscience: whew, I've got an escape from that dodgy road
:D

[sunhuntin]

and that right there is the exact reason i dont want kids.

[TonyB]

You're a good man TonyB. Plenty of people out there who have this epiphany on their death bed . . .

Bet your kids love their Dad! And I bet she who must be obeyed is proud of you.HA! I try to be, usually I fail miserably....

And I think she who must be obeyed is thinking "oh crap this could be even worse than bikes"

[deanohit]

Nice one mate, good to see you have your priorities straight.

[Matt_TG]

Nice choices made there Tony. My kids are currently 16 (son), 14 (daughter) and 11 (son). I sold my bike 10 years ago because we needed money and only recently (a year ago) got back into biking.

I have surfed since I was 15 years old, and through my kids' formative years we spend a fair amount of time at the beach. My 16 year old now surfs more than I do, in storms, dark and whatever the swell. The other two are water babies and my daughter said that she wants me to teach her to surf this year (you're right about them not wanting a bar of you when they turn 13, but they seem to come back around).

My 11 year old though loves bikes, and is often my pillion. He's even been to Okoroire (known around here as the 'office'). He's the best pillion I've ever had and just loves it.

I went for a surf this morning, followed by a bike ride this afternoon. Both are good for the soul. I guess because they are both sports you get time to yourself, to think about things and enjoy the thrill of participating. They are also both activities that you can do with a group of like-minded individuals and all types of society are involved.

You will never lose your passion for bikes, but in doing what you are doing your passion for bikes, life and your kids will all be drawn together for the better.

Take care mate.

[madandy]

Great post. Sharon & I are patiently waiting for our first born to arrive any day now. (due last Saturday).
I've been off a bike for nearly 2 years while we poured money into houses and just got 'permission' to get another now we're settling down to start this family business. We figure I've got at least this summer before I have to consider just how much time I spend away on the road so I may as well enjoy a few rides while the little one and mum sleep when/where they can!
After that, if I keep the bike it'll be a nice cruise with Sharon on the back when ever Granma can spare the time :rockon:

[TonyB]

I went for a surf this morning, followed by a bike ride this afternoon. Both are good for the soul.

You will never lose your passion for bikes, but in doing what you are doing your passion for bikes, life and your kids will all be drawn together for the better. Yep they are good for the soul, but only when I feel justified in doing it.


Great post. Sharon & I are patiently waiting for our first born to arrive any day now. (due last Saturday).
I've been off a bike for nearly 2 years while we poured money into houses and just got 'permission' to get another now we're settling down to start this family business. We figure I've got at least this summer before I have to consider just how much time I spend away on the road so I may as well enjoy a few rides while the little one and mum sleep when/where they can!
After that, if I keep the bike it'll be a nice cruise with Sharon on the back when ever Granma can spare the time :rockon:I hate to say this, but if your situation ends up being anything like mine was, the first year or so is about the worst time you could pick to be away a lot. It depends on the baby/mum, but that first year can be pretty bloody tough for anyone left to 'carry the baby'.

[madandy]

So I'm doomed to back rubbing, washing, cooking, feeding, changing nappies etc for a good while then?! :crazy:
One good ride a month will be just enough to keep the fires lit.

[TonyB]

So I'm doomed to back rubbing, washing, cooking, feeding, changing nappies etc for a good while then?! :crazy:
Kinda- just being around and helping out a bit helps heaps

[The Pastor]

Dude, motorbikes have a pillion seat.

Get ur woman to ride as well, then you can take the whole family.

[Angusdog]

Well done Tony - family first. Ours are 4 (Sean) and 6 (Annabelle), and they love climbing on my bike in the driveway, or even better a wee ride down the street and back, sitting in front of me.

Having said all of that, is there space in your life for a fun bike, like an XR250? Or a resto project, like that CB900 superbike project you always wanted? Or, dare I say it, a scooter - I'm thinking Lambretta or Triumph Diana? Something cheap, cheerful just to 'keep your hand in'? Up to you, and I fully respect you doing the right thing.

[Pwalo]

I sympathise, but really your first priority is always your family. I'm sure that a lot of us older guys have been through the riding, selling, home, family routine.

I guess I'm lucky enough to able to commute on my bike every day. If I get a chance to get out for a ride in the weekend it's a bonus.

[gijoe1313]

Good on ya for finding that point of balance in life, this way you won't have any regrets and surfing is addictive. I'm thinking of getting a bi-board so I can ride and still go surfing! :sweatdrop

Mad props to you for doing the right thing by your kids! :niceone:

[Daffyd]

That's the reason I only got into biking seriously in the last couple of years.
Family all grown up now. And to my mind there is nothing better than going on a long ride with my 'boys', all of whom ride.

[Mikkel]

I must say Tony that what you put down there is just about exactly how I have it (not the kids part - but the selfishness part). Which is one of the reasons I'm not willing to consider kids... yet. ;)

I do think you're making the right choice! :niceone: The water is awesome - and there are heaps of stuff you can do. If you want adrenaline I think whitewater kayaking beats motorcycling hands down any day. Kite surfing looks like a lot of fun - but if you're over towards the Lyttleton side I guess there might not be enough wind.

[Matt]

Good call - the best thing for any kid is having their parents spend time with them - especially when it's doing fun stuff like Kayaking :)

Much though I would like to take the bike out at the weekends, family comes first so I use it 99.99% of the time for commuting.

[007XX]

I think we all, at one point or another, struggle with the selfishness issue...It's a fairly natural impulse, but if left unchecked, can be quite destructive when a family is involved.

Well done Tony. It is certainly not easy a thing to do, but trust me, in the years to come, you will not regret it.
My 10 year old goes everywhere with us, camping, riding, hiking, and now, even snowboarding :bought him his 1st lesson for his 10th birthday present.
Now, that meant I couldn't afford to snowboard on that day, but it was so very worth it, just to see him discover a new passion, the grin on his face as he took to it like a duck to water...:clap:

Little blighter was doing jumps the very same day! :mad: :laugh: But he loves me so much for it, and even though he's 10, he tells me everything...we are incredibly close and I reckon that is because I keep him close...I truly hope this will go a long way towards keeping us in touch with each other through the difficult teenage years...

[TonyB]

Well done Tony. It is certainly not easy a thing to do, but trust me, in the years to come, you will not regret it.Yeah I hope not too. MrsB and I were laughing about this whole thing last night because I suddenly had ANOTHER epiphany; I'm probably only sacrificing the bike coz I still get to do something that's awesome fun...if it wasn't fun, I'd probably still be getting the bike...

[007XX]

Yeah I hope not too. MrsB and I were laughing about this whole thing last night because I suddenly had ANOTHER epiphany; I'm probably only sacrificing the bike coz I still get to do something that's awesome fun...if it wasn't fun, I'd probably still be getting the bike...

And what's wrong with that!?!...what would be a real problem is if you were aware of your selfishness, and yet not do anything about it.

There is nothing wrong with allowing yourself a treat as an individual...you work hard every day to make the money to pay for the needs of your family, and so it is only right that you should be able to reward yourself.

It is too easy to go completely out of balance and pour everything you've got into your kids (I have seen it happen)...then, you end up with spoilt brats! :argh:

So really, the hard part is to find the right balance and make compromises.

You're on the right track, I'm sure of it! :niceone:

[TonyB]

So really, the hard part is to find the right balance and make compromises.

You're on the right track, I'm sure of it! :niceone:I hope so!
Thinking of snowboarding- last time I was up the hill learning how to snow board this waist high little shit came past me and tried a jump..SPLAT... so then he gets up again, passes me after I get up from yet another fall, and nails the next jump. Meanwhile 90% of the kids in NZ were probably eating McD's or playing playstation. I know what i'd prefer my kids to be doing

[scumdog]

I was lucky - I was into hunting a lot and took the boys out - even when I had to carry them in the back-pack (one at a time though!).

The bikes came later when the boys were bigger - took them to rallies then too.

But now they're gone - one overseas, the other in another town with the 'ex'.

Time passes so quick.

[007XX]

I hope so!
Thinking of snowboarding- last time I was up the hill learning how to snow board this waist high little shit came past me and tried a jump..SPLAT... so then he gets up again, passes me after I get up from yet another fall, and nails the next jump. Meanwhile 90% of the kids in NZ were probably eating McD's or playing playstation. I know what i'd prefer my kids to be doing

Exactly! We are the role models...we are responsible for the adults and parents our children will be...

That's a responsability I always have in mind, and yes, it can be a bit daunting, and I won't lie and say it's always easy and I'm always fantastic at it. But I certainly try. I refuse to look back and think: Geez, I wish I'd pull my head in at the time, and been a better parent! Bit farkin late, then isn't it?

[saltydog]

(fark me what an awesome feeling!).
Well I'm totally screwed, totally relate to your thread and understand yr feelings. Surfing is the best buzz, at one with nature, good fittness and all that. But arrrhh the bike.........
I'm screwed :yes:

[Magua]

It must be tough giving up road riding, but it sounds like you made the right decision. _b

[cruza]

Its a hard call sometimes, Only been with my partner 5 years, Always said I'd ditch road bikes when I'd had kids. Just couldn't, Partner says I get all grumpy if I haven't been out hunting or on a bike ride/run for a while and understands mountains and bikes are part of what makes me tick. So I down graded to a naked bike, and brought us a house,And have worked my arse off To get it paid off. What im hoping for the future as 4-5 rallies a year, back off the overtime, and make time while my boy wants to be around me ,camping/hunting trips,and make sure he doesn't pickup a spraycan. Bikes ...well I know what my ol'man said, so I guess if he's interested, I"ll have to give him a better start than what I had. You still need "my" time , im glad I've kept a bike in the garage.

[cruza]

:baby::love:

[beyond]

I think if we were all very honest that every one of us with a partner or kids could say they feel guilty.

I work hard all week and work every second Saturday morning and find personal time very limited. The highlight of my day is coming home to my missus and I enjoy spending time with her. BUT I thrive on a good blast and get real crappy if I don't get out on the bike for a few hours once a week at least.

BUT, that takes time away from the missus and daughter who is still at home and yes I feel as guilty as hell each time I ride off, especially on a Coro loop with others. Though the ride can be done in just over three hours on your own or with another likeminded rider, when in a group of any size it takes a good six or seven hours and the days gone, leaving an upset missus.

Is it fair? I feel stink about it. Then theirs the fact that a bigger bike costs heaps to keep on the road and that's money taken away from other things and sometimes makes for a very tight budget when it's service and tyre time.

I enjoy a fast squirt so there's the risk element. I can't afford to lose my licence or get injured which may cost my job and we all know the high risk involved in Motorcycling even when we ride well, it's the 'others" that usually cause the accidents.

Right now I am torn between selling the bike and giving it up or trying to hang on to it. Common sense, time away from the missus and budgets tell me I need to sell. My heart and desire and enjoyment of riding tells me to keep it. What is a man to do? I love riding.......

Good thread Tony, I feel where you are coming from.

[TonyB]

Great post Beyond- its a bugger having a conscience eh... Reading between the lines, it looks like all you need to do is avoid group rides most of the time. Like you say, it takes AGES longer to do a group ride because of all the shagging about.

Well the bike is now officially unobtainable. I bought a Mission MDK sit on kayak last week- that'll make the pile of pressies under the tree look pretty mint. BUT despite the fact that I had the thing shoved way under the house round the back, my 4 year old son Zach found it:
"Daddy daddy!! Come and look at the boat under the house!! Its cooooool- its got a paddle and its orange and its haaaaarrrrd!!!"
"Ummmmm.....yeah I know. The old owner of the house left it there by mistake. Its broken and needs to go to the dump"
"OK"....crisis averted!

Then on Saturday after I discovered that CAMs weren't allowing Moderns or BEARS to race, I went out and got a new board and wettie (retail therapy). Then my surf guru insisted that I take the new gear out and try it. So we went out to Scarborough and I managed to stand up a couple of times:woohoo:. The whole family went back again on Sunday and I gave my daughter Lexie a few rides in the white water....she found it a bit scary but loved it all the same. I can see this summer is gonna be awesome:sunny:

[Colapop]

I won't post a long rambling reply as I'm prone to at times, other than to say that priorities change. My kids are 13 & 17 now and I put motorcycling and other interests aside for what feels like 20 years already. In the last 18 months - 2 years I've been "getting myself back". I bought myself a bike (which was described as being selfish by the wife) and have really enjoyed riding again despite having had a couple of off's. We don't do the things we once did as a family, it's getting harder to get everyone in the same place, but we still spend time together having a laugh etc.

Guilty? I do sorta feel guilty, but not about riding. Nor about the money that I've spent recently on my bike (new springs and rear shock). I feel guilty about the freedom I now have. I know that I'm not taking myself away from family activities as such (no-one is there to do them) but I am enjoying myself without them. I suppose I have to feel guilty about that. When you work for so long ensuring that you making everyone around you happy, do the right thing and pay for all manner of things (sucking up any spare cash) spending any time or money on yourself makes you feel guilty.

Priorities change though. My kids are seemingly well formed people thus far, they're fairly independent, and my wife is quite happy doing her thing. So I have a bit more time and money to spend on myself now. I really enjoy riding and have met some people through biking that I know I can call friends. Maybe I shouldn't feel so guilty? I work hard, I get the things done that I need to get done, so I should be able to spend something on myself and not feel guilty...

I wasn't going to ramble (though I have) so I'll stop now.
The last thing I'll say is that it's true - they are only young once. Good people come from good parents and good parents make sacrifices to spend time and effort on their kids ensuring that they know they're loved. I'm pretty sure your kids will look back and tell stories of the times they've spent with you, just being loved. Good on ya Tony.

[TonyB]

I wasn't going to ramble (though I have) so I'll stop now.
The last thing I'll say is that it's true - they are only young once. Good people come from good parents and good parents make sacrifices to spend time and effort on their kids ensuring that they know they're loved. I'm pretty sure your kids will look back and tell stories of the times they've spent with you, just being loved. Good on ya Tony.Nothing wrong with rambling when its that good...though that last paragraph should come with a NWS warning

[ManDownUnder]

TonyB - show her the opening post to this thread.

You're a good man. You need to tell her your wants and needs and she needs to listen and accommodate where reasonable... but...

She also needs to tell you her wants and needs... and you need to listen and accommodate where reasonable. That's no commentary on what you're doing or not doing, just speaking from personal experience.

Live life mate - it's the only one you've got.

[007XX]

I just want to hug everyone right now...this thread is definitely NWS!

TonyB, you already know my opinion, so I won't go on again.

Just know this: It gets better as they grow old, it gets slightly easier as they can join in on the fun.

Your passions of today will inspire them into their future passions...Never loose sight of the fact you are their role model, and consciously decide what you believe will guide them and benefit them...

Do not see it as a weight , but as a privilege and it will be your strength rather than your guilt. Quite often, it is simply in your perception of the situation that lies the answer to your question.

You are a good father, and I am sure, also a good husband .

[TonyB]

You are a good father, and I am sure, also a good husband .Another NWS post...thankfully i finally got the internet working at home again!

Actually I think I'm average to crap at both...its not for lack of trying though!

[007XX]

Another NWS post...thankfully i finally got the internet working at home again!

Actually I think I'm average to crap at both...its not for lack of trying though!

:Oi: I said you are a good father...now, stop arguing or there will be some serious repercussions, young man!!!! :spanking: :msn-wink:

Seriously though, I have already told you that the fact you give a crap about whether you're a good parent or not makes you a cut above the rest...I stand by that very strongly.

If ,before doing something which might affect your family, you stop and take them into consideration in your choice, then you are half way there...

We all feel like we could do better for our children. My son is ADHD, and I sometimes feel absolutely rotten (read cry at night) I cannot afford to put him in a private school, or pay for some tuition which would help so much in his schooling...when I'm still paying my bike off. Don't get me wrong, he is not struggling as per say at school, but he could be better.

My bike is my only toy, the only thing that is for me. And if I didn't have it, then my son couldn't pillion behind his stepdad (007XY) and come to the bike trips he loves so very much.

So, to compensate for my lack of funds in tuition, I spend extra time with him, helping him with his homework. And I pray that I can do a good enough job.

007XY always tells me I'm a good mum, but you have no idea how very often I will doubt that, and tell myself I must do more.

So, keep your chin up, you're not alone in how you feel. Take it one day at the time and listen to what your heart is telling you. Love your wife and your children like there is no tomorrow and never loose sight of the fact that your life is better for the mere fact that they are in it with you.

[TonyB]

:Oi: I said you are a good father...now, stop arguing or there will be some serious repercussions, young man!!!! :spanking: :msn-wink: I am a bad parent. I am a bad husband. I am a bad parent. I am a bad husband. I am a bad parent. I am a bad husband. I am a bad parent. I am a bad husband. I am a bad parent. I am a bad husband.....:devil2:



007XY always tells me I'm a good mum, but you have no idea how very often I will doubt that, and tell myself I must do more. It sounds to me like you are a good mum. Youre trying your best, and looking for ways to do even better, which is more than can be said for a lot of parents.

Anyway, I feel like I've made the right decision, and having people on KB back me up on it is bloody good.....this does NOT mean that you have made a bad call by buying a bike- for a start you and XY go riding together with your son. This is very doifferent from what I was doing. Your sharing it- its a good thing.:yes:

[scumdog]

Of course the downside to all this healthy outdoors crap is that you no longer have an excuse to wear a full-face helmet and hide the old man on your face..:dodge:

[007XX]

I am a bad parent. I am a bad husband. I am a bad parent. I am a bad husband. I am a bad parent. I am a bad husband. I am a bad parent. I am a bad husband. I am a bad parent. I am a bad husband.....:devil2:

.

:crazy::shutup::shutup::shutup:

resisting....urge......to.....take....thread waaayyyyy off topic! :rofl:

:nya:

[imdying]

I made it pretty clear before we got married that bikes came along with me... I've been married 2 years and 2 days now, and I've brought 2 bikes in that time. I haven't told her (and won't :blip:) yet, but I'll road ride less, buy a track day bike, and spend more time building than riding, once we have kids. I've got more life insurance than I know what to do with, so it's not that, but I've seen kids that have raised themselves... and I wouldn't wish that sort of life on anyone.

[TonyB]

Of course the downside to all this healthy outdoors crap is that you no longer have an excuse to wear a full-face helmet and hide the old man on your face..:dodge:

True....and the salt and sun will only make it worse....
My Daughter telling me like it is:
Fuck you look old dad

[TonyB]

:crazy::shutup::shutup::shutup:

resisting....urge......to.....take....thread waaayyyyy off topic! :rofl:

:nya: Its killing you isn't it:bleh:

[007XX]

Its killing you isn't it:bleh:

Not quite yet...you know what they say about bad weeds, don't you? :D

[imdying]

Not quite yet...you know what they say about bad weed, don't you? :DGives you a headache and makes you cough a lot?

[007XX]

Gives you a headache and makes you cough a lot?

Nah....gives you the biggest munchies :jerry:

[Colapop]

rug munchies

[007XX]

rug munchies

Bugger, I need to spread again...*I'm not helping myself here, am I?*

[TonyB]

Bugger, I need to spread again...*I'm not helping myself here, am I?*
Dunno- I guess it eases the initial pain? That must be helpful....:blank:

Oh well. So far this has been an interesting thread. I've had quite a few off thread responses- even an offer of a bike to use when required:niceone: