Top cop says bikers are incompetant and pissed [Archive]

Swoop

3rd December 2007, 15:30

"An appalling weekend road toll has police pleading for drivers to pay attention.

Waikato road policing manager Leo Tooman says it appears drivers were on the wrong side of the road in at least two crashes in his area over the weekend.

Mr Tooman is also worried about a series of motorcycle crashes. He says a large number of "born-again" motorcyclists are coming down from Auckland to cruise Coromandel and Waikato roads.

Mr Tooman says technology has moved on a bit since they last rode. He says that, coupled with stopping at the odd cafe to enjoy a beer, can be a recipe for disaster. "

He clearly states that drivers were on the wrong side of the road in 50% of the incidents, then mentions beer, without providing any facts about any alcohol being involved in any incidents.

The septic tank theory works well here.
Only the biggest turds get to the top.

yungatart

3rd December 2007, 15:30

Ah, i see.
If some tourist forgets whiich side of the road to drive on, then of course the motorcyclist he hit must be an aged, pissed rider.
If some cop decides to do a u turn on a decidedly questionable area and two riders hit him, then again they must be pissed and aged.
Yes it all makes perfect sense to me now.
Please thank Mr Tooman for his valuable contribution to road safety and also for clearing that issue up for me.

Nasty

3rd December 2007, 15:31

This would of course explain the fatalities down south and the others who were hit by a police car ... HOW ????

NighthawkNZ

3rd December 2007, 15:32

http://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=79231&fm=newsmain,nrhl

BRONZ will be questioning Mr Tooman on the basis for his allegations.

Mr Tooman says technology has moved on a bit since they last rode. He says that, coupled with stopping at the odd cafe to enjoy a beer, can be a recipe for disaster.

Maybe I should stop drinking my coffee at the cafes I visit. Then again I'm not a born again rider, I never really stopped. I personally believe it should be zero tolarance for alchol and driving... One day I can have a beer and be fine, a week later have a beer and am over the limit yet feel fine...

For me just makes it easier to not drink if I am still going to be riding... then at the rally site or at home during the evening I'll have a drink or 5. I have no problem with that...

Usarka

3rd December 2007, 15:32

And the cops complain when we call them cunts.

spudchucka

3rd December 2007, 15:40

You bunch of cry babies seem to have an uncanny ability to take what is obviously a generalised comment very personally.

crashe

3rd December 2007, 15:40

Ixion - Please inform that git, Mr Tooman, that this rider only drinks 'hot chocolate' or 'coke cola' at cafe's.

I am one rider who NEVER touches booze when riding my bike.

Maybe he could look at how many drunk drivers were picked up recently driving around in their cars with young children in them.
Maybe he could catch all the drunks right outside the pubs as the pubs close.....

PeteJ

3rd December 2007, 15:41

johnnyflash

3rd December 2007, 15:48

http://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=79231&fm=newsmain,nrhl

BRONZ will be questioning Mr Tooman on the basis for his allegations.

Comments ?

Un-substantiated, ill informed utterings like that, deserve no respect at all, maybe his superiors would like to send him on a communucations course, or put him back on the beat where his feet will serve him better than his mouth..
Sure there are a few idiots around but the life long older bikers and the so called born again variety who may have been off a bike a couple of years dont hold any truck with drink and drive, and as for bikes being better than before, so ? havent cars also improved, !! whats the big deal, as some one else pointed out, yep at least the breaks work now and they dont shake you off the bike at 100kph, Yes ive seen the odd comment around by younger bikers that seem to enjoy coro and beers, doesnt make em all irresponsible and drink drivers. show me the stats where born again (I read bikers with some experience) have all these accidents, Ive ridden all my life (40 odd years) and dont find many of the so called born again much under 40 years old, and mostly I would have to say they were a good responsible bunch, (probably whats kept em alive all these years).

Usarka

3rd December 2007, 15:49

You bunch of cry babies seem to have an uncanny ability to take what is obviously a generalised comment very personally.

pot or kettle?? :lol:

deanohit

3rd December 2007, 15:50

So it's all you old buggers with years of experiance on bike you can't handle, not the squids or another factor then.

Bullshit!

vifferman

3rd December 2007, 15:50

I thought it was totally outrageous! "Odd cafes" indeed.... :Pokey:
I'm very picky about what cafes I choose to frequent.

NighthawkNZ

3rd December 2007, 15:53

I thought it was totally outrageous! "Odd cafes" indeed.... :Pokey:
I'm very picky about what cafes I choose to frequent.

me to... I must find this cafe that sells beer... ?

Swoop

3rd December 2007, 15:55

Un-substantiated, ill informed utterings like that, deserve no respect at all, maybe his superiors would like to send him on a communucations course, or put him back on the beat where his feet will serve him better than his mouth.
Let's get your bling levels up... :niceone:

fishb8nz

3rd December 2007, 15:57

Not that we share anything other than a nodding acquaintance.

And, there's about 4 greybeard bikers close by.

Funny, I've only seen bikers taking an espresso or lattes during their cafe stops. Never grog

WRT

3rd December 2007, 15:58

"Born Again" riders are very real, and they are heavily represented in accident figures - particularly single vehicle. However, what they have to do with the incidents that happened over the weekend, I have no idea.

scumdog

3rd December 2007, 15:59

You bunch of cry babies seem to have an uncanny ability to take what is obviously a generalised comment very personally.

True SC - but they could get me to do the 'foot-in-mouth' act just as easily on a much lower salary...

spudchucka

3rd December 2007, 15:59

pot or kettle?? :lol:

Not pot, he said beer and probably the odd pack of kettle frys too.

MisterD

3rd December 2007, 16:00

Nah, he's all wrong. It's us "my bike's older than me" scooterists that are the piss-artists...:scooter:

Ixion

3rd December 2007, 16:04

You bunch of cry babies seem to have an uncanny ability to take what is obviously a generalised comment very personally.

Such generalised coments, if not refuted, very quickly enter the corpus of received wisdom, the things "that everybody knows", and all too frequently lead to quite particular regulations and restrictions.

Krusti

3rd December 2007, 16:05

robertydog

3rd December 2007, 16:06

I find that interesting when over the weekend there were two high profile accidents. And its clear that the 4 wheel vechiles were on the wrong side of the road.
I think his comments are not needed and im wondering if there is panic starting to set in amongest the law inforcement. He probably wont get is bonus this year.

My thoughts are with those families at this time.

Bonez

3rd December 2007, 16:07

Anyone thought there may be a little truth in his statements? I personnally know a "born again rider" who will have a tiddle when he goes for a ride.

Mind you I've done the same myself on occasion and so have some I've riden with.

spudchucka

3rd December 2007, 16:08

Such generalised coments, if not refuted, very quickly enter the corpus of received wisdom, the things "that everybody knows", and all too frequently lead to quite particular regulations and restrictions.

Sort of like how all cops became rapists once a complaint was made against a top ranking cop?

Grahameeboy

3rd December 2007, 16:11

You bunch of cry babies seem to have an uncanny ability to take what is obviously a generalised comment very personally.

Agreed...............I mean I know I don't drink and ride so me not paranoid.

Guess it could be those guilty bikers who take it personally.............:pinch:

Ixion

3rd December 2007, 16:12

Sort of like how all cops became rapists once a complaint was made against a top ranking cop?

Precisely so. Just as I'm sure Mr Tooman would object to any of his cops being branded as rapists because one cop was so convicted, so motorcyclists may object to being universely branded as pissed and incompetant (the more so since so far we have not seen even the one convicted instance to back Mr Tooman's theory).

I must include that analogy when I write to Mr Tooman.

Ixion

3rd December 2007, 16:16

Agreed...............I mean I know I don't drink and ride so me not paranoid.

Guess it could be those guilty bikers who take it personally.............:pinch:

Actually it's not drinking and riding that he points the finger at, it's drinking riding and crashing. So the question is not how many bikers do or do not have a drink, it's how many have a drink and then crash.

Specifically, on the open road (since he references bikers coming down from Auckland). Not in the city.I suspect the number would be very small.

Ther've been a fair few crashes on teh Coro loop reproted here. But the number caused by the rider being pissed ? Dunno if anyone knows of any, but I don't.

Grahameeboy

3rd December 2007, 16:17

To some extent I agree with him. He did say some, not all.

You or I may not have a beer on our way around Corro loop but I know some do.

I have also come across some born again bikers who's brain have not yet caught up with thier bike, some younger ones too!

Although I don't totally agree with what he said he did make a couple of valid observations.

Thats right and I have seen a few KBers have 2 or 3 pints during a ride.

However, it does sound like a damage control comment after that cop v bikes crash.

spudchucka

3rd December 2007, 16:19

Precisely so. Just as I'm sure Mr Tooman would object to any of his cops being branded as rapists because one cop was so convicted, so motorcyclists may object to being universely branded as pissed and incompetant (the more so since so far we have not seen even the one convicted instance to back Mr Tooman's theory).

I must include that analogy when I write to Mr Tooman.

Stopping at cafes for a few beers is more like what he said, not quite branding bikers as pissed as far as I'm concerned.

His comments will be based on reports, notings, infringement notices, complaints from the public, court matters etc etc that have given rise to concern.

jrandom

3rd December 2007, 16:20

Personally, I find myself very exercised over the fact that the title of this thread misspells 'incompetent'.

Ixion

3rd December 2007, 16:21

Thats right and I have seen a few KBers have 2 or 3 pints during a ride.

....

But did you then see them crash ? That is the point, the allegation is that bike crashes are caused by the riders being 'overtaken by technology' and intoxicated.

Riders who have had a drink and NOT crashed are not in the picture. (Nor are those who find that 'technology has moved on - whatever the hell that means, but do not crash)

Ixion

3rd December 2007, 16:22

Personally, I find myself very exercised over the fact that the title of this thread misspells 'incompetent'.

Well, that's good. The exercise will help you lose weight. I'll send you my invoice, I'm cheaper than Jenny Craig (and better looking) .

Swoop

3rd December 2007, 16:22

My thoughts are with those families at this time.
Holy fuck. The details in picture #1 of that post are scary.

Grahameeboy

3rd December 2007, 16:24

Actually it's not drinking and riding that he points the finger at, it's drinking riding and crashing. So the question is not how many bikers do or do not have a drink, it's how many have a drink and then crash.

Specifically, on the open road (since he references bikers coming down from Auckland). Not in the city.I suspect the number would be very small.

Ther've been a fair few crashes on teh Coro loop reproted here. But the number caused by the rider being pissed ? Dunno if anyone knows of any, but I don't.

I guess riding and drinking is a potential hazard still and should not be accepted just because the riders don't crash??

I would say a few bears are consumed on a Coro loop and I guess given the 'Code' that drink related crashes may not be possible to determine.

Goblin

3rd December 2007, 16:25

Precisely so. Just as I'm sure Mr Tooman would object to any of his cops being branded as rapists because one cop was so convicted, so motorcyclists may object to being universely branded as pissed and incompetant (the more so since so far we have not seen even the one convicted instance to back Mr Tooman's theory).

I must include that analogy when I write to Mr Tooman.Ahhh but it wasn't just one cop convicted of rape now was it. There was a whole gang of them....some havn't even been convicted yet.

We all need to stay alert on the roads and beware of all these cars, cops and campers on the wrong side of the road. Ride to survive people!

SPman

3rd December 2007, 16:25

I'm born again, every time I get on a bike!

Grahameeboy

3rd December 2007, 16:27

But did you then see them crash ? That is the point, the allegation is that bike crashes are caused by the riders being 'overtaken by technology' and intoxicated.

Riders who have had a drink and NOT crashed are not in the picture. (Nor are those who find that 'technology has moved on - whatever the hell that means, but do not crash)

That it is acceptable to drink and ride as long as you don't crash...........or am I missing the moral point here.

janno

3rd December 2007, 16:27

Ixion

3rd December 2007, 16:28

Well, if someone doesn't crash then it could be argued that whatever they've been doing has maybe improved their riding.

But, as Mr Tooman made no comment regarding the behaviour of riders who have not crashed, their drinking (or other) habits are irrelevant.

It is bikers who have crashed in the Waikato or Coromandel that we are talking about here.

Skyryder

3rd December 2007, 16:28

You bunch of cry babies seem to have an uncanny ability to take what is obviously a generalised comment very personally.

It's the KB way that I've tried very hard to dispel. :buggerd: But it works both ways SC. Slag the cops in a general manner and there's plenty here who take it personal. :apint:

Skyyrder

Swoop

3rd December 2007, 16:29

I would say a few bears are consumed on a Coro loop...
Does greenpeace know about this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?

EDIT: Bugger this. I'm NEVER riding the loop unarmed ever again!! The alligators at Whangamata might get me!

James Deuce

3rd December 2007, 16:30

That it is acceptable to drink and ride as long as you don't crash...........or am I missing the moral point here.

I think you're being paranoid.....

Ixion

3rd December 2007, 16:31

That it is acceptable to drink and ride as long as you don't crash...........or am I missing the moral point here.

I know a guy (no, not me) who crashed on the way home from church. So, is it acceptable to worship and ride, as long as you don't crash? Morally speaking .

Macstar

3rd December 2007, 16:31

I don't take the comments as an attack against bikers as such, merely valid observations. I really can't argue with his comments there.

However, I think the journalist has decided to take those comments and use them as basis for the strap, which then leads the reader on to the first par of the accidents, thus leading to the conclusion that the two are linked.

Once again, it comes down to an anti bike journo, I'd say.

Couldn't agree with you more. I think the copper has had his comments manipulated into a provacative article that is probably out of context. Typical media BS. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the article itself.

Bonez

3rd December 2007, 16:33

It's the KB way that I've tried very hard to dispel. :buggerd: But it works both ways SD. Slag the cops in a general manner and there's plenty here who take it personal. :apint:

SkyyrderI too will have a beer on that. Make that a Tui.

James Deuce

3rd December 2007, 16:36

Once again, it comes down to an anti bike journo, I'd say.

I don't think many people are specifically anti-anything. I think the journo knew that there would be a stoush if they set up a biker vs cop story. That will generate more copy and create a bigger story.

If the reaction in this thread is anything to go by I'd say the journo in question is probably going to earn a nice little bonus.

Grahameeboy

3rd December 2007, 16:38

I know a guy (no, not me) who crashed on the way home from church. So, is it acceptable to worship and ride, as long as you don't crash? Morally speaking .

That is a silly response Ixion cause you drink AND ride.....you ride to Church, you get off, you enter Church, you worship....sitting on a pew, not a motorbike, you finish worship, you leave Church and you ride away having finished worship............no link at all.

janno

3rd December 2007, 16:40

I don't think many people are specifically anti-anything. I think the journo knew that there would be a stoush if they set up a biker vs cop story. That will generate more copy and create a bigger story.

If the reaction in this thread is anything to go by I'd say the journo in question is probably going to earn a nice little bonus.

When I was working in various newsrooms as a journo, none of us rode motorcycles and the general feeling was bikers are nutters. I don't expect that to have changed.

And back in the day, (10 years now!) no one got a bonus for breaking a huge story, let alone a minor one like this one. It's just another overworked, jaded hack banging out the party line IMHO. In a newsroom from my experience, you really do end up following the general consensus of things, if the ed doesn't change your copy the subs will, and in the end you just give in.

Bonez

3rd December 2007, 16:42

When I was working in various newsrooms as a journo, none of us rode motorcycles and the general feeling was bikers are nutters. I don't expect that to have changed.(Snip!)

Welcome to the dark side. You could say KB is filled with an assortment of mixed nuts.

BigG

3rd December 2007, 16:42

Nothing like a nice cold beer on these hot HB Roads. I will have one beer if I feel like it. Some guys ride stupid without a drink, ya could call me Born again but I bin riding for years now off road and on, had my share of prangs but its usualy someone or something else thats caused it. Cops seem to be targeting the motorcyclist now that there are so many on the road.
Plenty of track days to get your ability up and always someone willing to help other bikers. Nasty accident down in the Buller Gorge though HP didnt have is glasses on.:argue:

Skyryder

3rd December 2007, 16:43

That is a silly response Ixion cause you drink AND ride.....you ride to Church, you get off, you enter Church, you worship....sitting on a pew, not a motorbike, you finish worship, you leave Church and you ride away having finished worship............no link at all.

That my be, but what about all the God like intoxication. Then there's the coming Rapture, speaking in tongues and the complexities of the sermon just to confuse you even more. Motorcycles can be ridden to church but not back home it's just to dangerouse. Ask Zed he saw the light.:niceone:

Skyyrder

Ixion

3rd December 2007, 16:47

That is a silly response Ixion cause you drink AND ride.....you ride to Church, you get off, you enter Church, you worship....sitting on a pew, not a motorbike, you finish worship, you leave Church and you ride away having finished worship............no link at all.

Actually, I have more than once worshipped my Lord whilst riding. "Look upon His handiwork, and give praise". But that is another matter. We are concerned with bornagain riders, pissed and crashing.

Hitcher

3rd December 2007, 16:48

One would be interested to hear what Mr Tooman reports to BRONZ. It's nice to know that our top law enforcement personnel aren't above sweeping generalisations, personal prejudice and contempt.

jrandom

3rd December 2007, 16:49

... the general feeling was bikers are nutters.

Ahem.

:pinch:

Hitcher

3rd December 2007, 16:50

Then there's the coming Rapture

That happened 30 years ago. We're the left-overs, didn't you know?

Grahameeboy

3rd December 2007, 16:56

That my be, but what about all the God like intoxication. Then there's the coming Rapture, speaking in tongues and the complexities of the sermon just to confuse you even more. Motorcycles can be ridden to church but not back home it's just to dangerouse. Ask Zed he saw the light.:niceone:

Skyyrder

Are you saying I babble a lot........................

janno

3rd December 2007, 16:57

Ahem.

:pinch:

Mate, back in the day before I got my licence I completely agreed with the party line. Mainly cos all I'd had to do with bikes was seeing them on the road exhibiting less than exemplary behaviour, and/or ridden by gang members.

So it's our perception in the eyes of joe public which is the real problem, IMHO. For example, Mr Plod could say "we are very concerned with the number of crack dealing little old ladies", yet the public would not immediately follow that line of thought as gospel, cos most of us know little old ladies who are perfectly narcotic free . . .

doc

3rd December 2007, 16:59

When I was working in various newsrooms as a journo, the general feeling was bikers are nutters.

Do they do their research and get the stories off KB'r ?

Ixion

3rd December 2007, 17:03

And, in breaking news (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10480035) (edited version here)

A man died after being thrown from his car in a head-on collision with a truck south of Te Awamutu today.
... the man's death was the first fatality in five serious crashes in Waikato since Friday. Three of the crashes involved trucks.
...
Today's crash takes the region's road toll to 42 compared to 53 for the same time last year and has left road policing staff searching for answers on how to stop the carnage.Waikato road policing manager Inspector Leo Tooman said the fine, warm weather didn't help drivers, contributing to driver fatigue.
"It only takes a micro-sleep for people to find themselves facing disaster and as the case in three crashes in recent days you have a vehicle weighing say 1.2 tonnes versus a vehicle weighing 44 tonnes.
"It's pretty easy to work out who will come off worst in that situation and we're very fortunate more lives haven't been lost in similar crashes."
More than 30 per cent of road deaths in Waikato have involved a truck or heavy commercial vehicle, although often the larger vehicle was not at fault.

Mr Tooman seems confused. Perhaps he actually meant to blame born again pissed truckies for his rising road toll ?

jafar

3rd December 2007, 17:04

I'd say Mr Tooman has made a few valid points, well done that man for pointing out that DRIVERS were on the WRONG SIDE...... Probably tourists that have mistakenly driven on the right as they do @ 'home'.These are usually in WHITE CAMPER VANS & should be avoided as Mr Tooman points out.<_<

Most of the bike riders I have seen on the coro loop are younger guys on sports bikes. While there are a few older riders they are usually outnumbered :oi-grr:

Dafe

3rd December 2007, 17:04

Was this guy having a dig???
Or are we looking at the comments too defensively.....

"Large number of born again motorcyclists" = Booming motorcyclist numbers on the roads in recent times.
"Technology has moved on abit" = Increased average motorcyclist speeds as bikes are easier to ride nowdays.

Would you say - Fair comments?

jafar

3rd December 2007, 17:10

Usarka

3rd December 2007, 17:10

Actually, I have more than once worshipped my Lord whilst riding.

Yeah me too. Normally in the form of JESUS FUCKING CHRIST! that was close....

Ixion

3rd December 2007, 17:33

There is another pertinent point.

The stated policy of the NZ Police is to oppose all forms of practical driver training. So, accepting , just for the sake of argument, that bornagain motorcyclists are crashing because they have been overtaken by new technology, how are they to upskill to cope with this whizzo new technology?

BRONZ will be asking Mr Tooman if he , and the Waikato Road Policing Unit, are prepared to fund, or otherwise support, a rider training program to bring the bornagains up to speed with the new technology . I'm sure that RRRS can devise such a program.

It will be interesting to see his response. Pigs may fly, but I won't be holding my breath waiting for Mr Tooman to start flapping.

JimO

3rd December 2007, 17:49

madandy

3rd December 2007, 17:56

I fail to see how this new fangled technology is causing born again riders to crash & burn. What technlogy? Overhead camshafts?! Disc Brakes?! C'mon now!
It's simple math isn't it? More bikes on the road = more bikes hitting things.
As long as the national vehicle fleet continues to grow, even with a slight % drop here & there, ultimate numbers are going to rise...
I think people drink a little less now days than they did 20-30 years ago.
It's nice to hear Mr Tooman not blaming speed for the carnage...

edit: grammar.

NighthawkNZ

3rd December 2007, 18:00

Was this guy having a dig???
Or are we looking at the comments too defensively.....

"Technology has moved on abit" = Increased average motorcyclist speeds as bikes are easier to ride nowdays.

my old Z1R would go as fast a i wanted in 1979, a slow ride was 160 ks it had crap brakes and wallowed in the corners, i would say modern bikes are safer

MY old XJ use to wallow in the corners too :crazy: I didn't use to like going over 90 kph in the wet, but now happy at 100 kph (or faster but will niether confirm nor deiny)

Technology in general has made biking in general safer, better brakes, tyres, suspension, bikes handle better and are more forgiving than they use to be, Helmets are better, the the riding and safety gear in general is better... roads are generall better, the tighter corners are removed, and widened, roading compound is better.

It hasn't really made bikes any faster as a general rule of thumb, maybe quicker off the mark. I use to have a 1985 CB900 and that could probably do the same speed as my 2002 VTR.

what isn't better, is well now the number of road users, more cars, trucks, and motorcycles camper vans and buses but there isn't alot that can be done there, except more driver education and better roads. There is more tourest, international students, which are not use to NZ driving conditions, roads, and some of our quirky driving laws that come in using an international licenses. The media make hearing about these tragidies worse and instant, just to get the story, sometimes they don't get it right.

Bonez

3rd December 2007, 18:00

James Deuce

3rd December 2007, 18:13

And back in the day, (10 years now!) no one got a bonus for breaking a huge story, let alone a minor one like this one. It's just another overworked, jaded hack banging out the party line IMHO. In a newsroom from my experience, you really do end up following the general consensus of things, if the ed doesn't change your copy the subs will, and in the end you just give in.

If it's a hack it/he/she won't be anti-anything, just turning in copy. The whole us against the world thing that motorcyclists insist on maintaining needs to be crumpled up and deep-sixed in file 13.

Usarka

3rd December 2007, 18:53

BRONZ will be asking Mr Tooman if he , and the Waikato Road Policing Unit, are prepared to fund, or otherwise support, a rider training program to bring the bornagains up to speed with the new technology . I'm sure that RRRS can devise such a program.

It will be interesting to see his response. Pigs may fly, but I won't be holding my breath waiting for Mr Tooman to start flapping.

I await his reply. even if it is support in the direction of policy makers...... I personally think training is a good thing. especially done at the early stages of riding, but a foot in the door is worth six in the mouth.

ElCoyote

3rd December 2007, 19:31

"Born Again" riders are very real, and they are heavily represented in accident figures

Please extrapolate............what relation are you to Tooman again?

McJim

3rd December 2007, 19:40

Innit ironic how the 2 most demonised groups of bikers are:

A/ Young squids on old bikes that don't handle well enough.
B/ Old farts who can't handle ultra modern sportsbikes well enough.

Maybe the squids and the oldies should swap bikes.

I'm so glad I'm in the middle with a bike that's neither new nor old. :rofl:

note to the broken brained before I get red rep - I don't actually subscribe to what I've written here - irony does not actually mean "like iron"

janno

3rd December 2007, 19:44

MSTRS

3rd December 2007, 20:03

beware of all these cars, cops and campers on the wrong side of the road.

And cheese cutter. I'm seeing a trend here. If it starts with 'c' it's gunna cause you grief....

McJim

3rd December 2007, 20:06

And cheese cutter. I'm seeing a trend here. If it starts with 'c' it's gunna cause you grief....

Well that's the last time I lick anything beginning with 'C' then! :rofl:

doc

3rd December 2007, 20:07

I have been told more than once by experienced riders (read old farts who have been there, done that) that bikes now can be ridden a hell of a lot faster with a hell of a lot less rider input and skill required, so when the shit does hit the fan the inexperienced rider hasn't a clue how to get themselves out of trouble.

Any other experienced riders agree/disagree? And why?
Then

Firstly you had to be able to get it started first, balancing when pissed trying to kick start a Norton is a test in its self. Those large bottles under your jacket use to ride up under you ribcage and limit your swing.

No helmet made you so much aware, you could hear the siren, the lights were just pretty.

The magic ton was for the big stuff. When your boots touched the ground cornering, the sparks told you you were there.

Now
Your first bike out performs the best of them ,tyres are big as cars tyres. Kickstarts are a museum piece. Radar gadgets etc makes you invinsible. Your'e going so much faster, when something scrapes your in the shit.

Ocean1

3rd December 2007, 20:07

I have been told more than once by experienced riders (read old farts who have been there, done that) that bikes now can be ridden a hell of a lot faster with a hell of a lot less rider input and skill required, so when the shit does hit the fan the inexperienced rider hasn't a clue how to get themselves out of trouble.

As I consider myself an inexperienced rider, I can't comment on the validity but I respected these guys skill levels (ex top level racers etc) so I think they would know what they are on about.

Any other experienced riders agree/disagree? And why?

First, get the facts. I haven't seen a single reference to current statistics in this thread. And no, I don't have them to hand either. I do recall however recently reading that the group in question, (bornagainriders) in the UK represent the lowest risk group. Those of you paying insurance might also be aware that bornagainriders pay less in insurance premiums, the older the better.

J, ignoring the "experienced" bit for a moment, yes, I agree. The phenomenon applies more to new riders though, than those with a modicum of experience. So you'd expect the numbers to show peak accidents in the newly licenced and those recently upgrading from a 250 to a liter sprotbike. I suspect that's exactly the case.

As for the effects of a mid-ride beer? Well, it can't help, but I'd say the more... mature guys are probably more able to moderate their on-road behaviour accordingly. Sound plausable?

Coyote

3rd December 2007, 20:11

I'm not sure I'm very experienced yet, but I did manage to narrowly miss smacking into a truck that cut across my lane. Think that requires some skill doesn't it?

Ocean1

3rd December 2007, 20:13

I'm not sure I'm very experienced yet, but I did manage to narrowly miss smacking into a truck that cut across my lane. Think that requires some skill doesn't it?

Depends. How many dozen had you downed? JD chasers?

janno

3rd December 2007, 20:14

candor

3rd December 2007, 20:24

Actually it's not drinking and riding that he points the finger at, it's drinking riding and crashing. So the question is not how many bikers do or do not have a drink, it's how many have a drink and then crash.
.

27 of the 35 riders killed in 2006 had alcohol. But the good news is they mostly weren't pissed.

1 had a BAC between 121-150mg per litre blood
1 had a BAC 150-200 (double the limit)
1 had a 201-250
24 were BAC 0-31

This level of the 24 wouldn't normally be dangerous unless the BAC was mixed with DAK then you'd be similar in risk to being double the alcohol limit (45x norrmal). NZ does have high rates of driver fatalities with very low alcohol + dak.

0-31 ='s one drink had within the last 2 hours for any but the biggest of males (who might have managed 2.

Few obvious effects from sole use; slight intensification of mood and no feeling of relaxation has set in at that level.

So under 10% of killed riders are officially pissed versus just over 20% of car drivers per the motor vehicle crashes in NZ 2006 book (M.O.T.). The ages of the 3 drunk riders are not provided. Panic is coming from big huge spike in crashes across the board this year. Huge road safety bungling.

In week 46 (2007) the control charts showed 320 fatal crashes when 250 was the expected goal given heavily ramped up enforcement. It's a failed model - but subjects other than speed and alcohol (and a narrow approach to those) are banned.., hence the ramblings re bikers stopping in at cafes to get pickled. They're trying to blame the victims and scare people off bikes in order they won't miss toll targets (KPI) so bad as currently are?!?.

Coyote

3rd December 2007, 20:34

Depends. How many dozen had you downed? JD chasers?
Not at that stage. If I did get hit would that make me an alcoholic?

jafar

3rd December 2007, 20:59

27 of the 35 riders killed in 2006 had alcohol. But the good news is they mostly weren't pissed.

1 had a BAC between 121-150mg per litre blood
1 had a BAC 150-200 (double the limit)
1 had a 201-250
24 were BAC 0-31

This level of the 24 wouldn't normally be dangerous unless the BAC was mixed with DAK then you'd be similar in risk to being double the alcohol limit (45x norrmal). NZ does have high rates of driver fatalities with very low alcohol + dak.

0-31 ='s one drink had within the last 2 hours for any but the biggest of males (who might have managed 2.

Few obvious effects from sole use; slight intensification of mood and no feeling of relaxation has set in at that level.

So under 10% of killed riders are officially pissed versus just over 20% of car drivers per the motor vehicle crashes in NZ 2006 book (M.O.T.). The ages of the 3 drunk riders are not provided. Panic is coming from big huge spike in crashes across the board this year. Huge road safety bungling.

In week 46 (2007) the control charts showed 320 fatal crashes when 250 was the expected goal given heavily ramped up enforcement. It's a failed model - but subjects other than speed and alcohol (and a narrow approach to those) are banned.., hence the ramblings re bikers stopping in at cafes to get pickled. They're trying to blame the victims and scare people off bikes in order they won't miss toll targets (KPI) so bad as currently are?!?.

So 25 of the 35 had a minor amount to drink,this would lead to the assumption that stopping @ a cafe on the coro loop & having a beer would be of benefit :whistle:

Genestho

3rd December 2007, 21:06

It'll be interesting to see the reply...

In a meeting I had with ACC, I was informed that the "born again" (I cant actually remember how she put it) riders are statistically the highest with Motorcycle Accidents
I didnt ask for the numbers as it wasnt what I was there for.

Lets not forget that 75% of Motorcyclist accidents are caused by Motorists.

I have been asked to do an interview with a Radio Station in regards to BADD and how to advise Motorists to watch out for Motorcyclists on the roads.
I hope I represent the Community with what I say, any input is welcomed.

Ive had some massive near misses with my hubby riding and he was an accomplished rider.
He saved us a few times from tossers not watching out or looking in their mirrors.
He saved possibly our lives on the way to Paeroa Street Racing 6 weeks before he and his mates were murdered.

A twit u turned in front of us in the middle of a group of bikes we were cruising with and the Guzzi had its back wheel off the ground, we slid sideways, back wheel came off the ground again, then we slid slowly to a stop - upright about half a metre before we Tboned into said twit.
I wanted to stop and bollock the Motorist, but Leon tapped my thigh and said "Dont stress - lets just get to Paeroa"

(I dont really know why I explained that - I guess its the accomplished bit, the bummer is if we had crashed, the bike wouldve been off the road and he may be still alive today, and maybe I wouldnt've been)

I dont really know what Leo is trying to establish considering the accidents were caused by Motorists (Ive got that right?) in my short experience with the Media SOME seem to like a good fiddling with the facts.

At the end of the day, you cant do stuff all if you havent got a clear view of the road with a car on your side.

I stand at Leon's accident site, and I still cant understand how they didnt make it, they had so much clear road, they shouldve been able to get around Mr 4x convicted drunk driver and unlicensed Looser.
But they only 3 inches of skidmark on their tyres.
They were screwed.

Usarka

3rd December 2007, 21:25

27 of the 35 riders killed in 2006 had alcohol. But the good news is they mostly weren't pissed.

1 had a BAC between 121-150mg per litre blood
1 had a BAC 150-200 (double the limit)
1 had a 201-250
24 were BAC 0-31

This level of the 24 wouldn't normally be dangerous unless the BAC was mixed with DAK then you'd be similar in risk to being double the alcohol limit (45x norrmal). NZ does have high rates of driver fatalities with very low alcohol + dak.

0-31 ='s one drink had within the last 2 hours for any but the biggest of males (who might have managed 2.

Few obvious effects from sole use; slight intensification of mood and no feeling of relaxation has set in at that level.

So under 10% of killed riders are officially pissed versus just over 20% of car drivers per the motor vehicle crashes in NZ 2006 book (M.O.T.). The ages of the 3 drunk riders are not provided. Panic is coming from big huge spike in crashes across the board this year. Huge road safety bungling.

In week 46 (2007) the control charts showed 320 fatal crashes when 250 was the expected goal given heavily ramped up enforcement. It's a failed model - but subjects other than speed and alcohol (and a narrow approach to those) are banned.., hence the ramblings re bikers stopping in at cafes to get pickled. They're trying to blame the victims and scare people off bikes in order they won't miss toll targets (KPI) so bad as currently are?!?.

I fail to grasp your point. are you suggesting that the 24 riders were stoned aswell?

Is it not possible that a reading of less than 31 is attributable to something other than an alcoholic beverage?

I personally know one of those riders and know for a fact he didnt have anything to drink that day. that makes it 27 out of 34. sounds either far fetched, or very disturbing to me.

Ocean1

3rd December 2007, 21:35

The middle aged bikers are the highest percentage of motorcycle accident and death rates in Queensland - I had to research the 2006 road toll figures for a feature I was writing.

BUT!! There was no way of telling how long some of them had been away from riding (as their licences and possible bike registrations during that time weren't correlated), it was purely speculation from the bike shops as to who they were selling to.

They are in the UK too, overall, but they're the largest group, the corrected falaty rate was lower than the mean, by quite a bit.

27 of the 35 riders killed in 2006 had alcohol. But the good news is they mostly weren't pissed.

1 had a BAC between 121-150mg per litre blood
1 had a BAC 150-200 (double the limit)
1 had a 201-250
24 were BAC 0-31

This level of the 24 wouldn't normally be dangerous unless the BAC was mixed with DAK then you'd be similar in risk to being double the alcohol limit (45x norrmal). NZ does have high rates of driver fatalities with very low alcohol + dak.

0-31 ='s one drink had within the last 2 hours for any but the biggest of males (who might have managed 2.

Few obvious effects from sole use; slight intensification of mood and no feeling of relaxation has set in at that level.

So under 10% of killed riders are officially pissed versus just over 20% of car drivers per the motor vehicle crashes in NZ 2006 book (M.O.T.). The ages of the 3 drunk riders are not provided. Panic is coming from big huge spike in crashes across the board this year. Huge road safety bungling.

In week 46 (2007) the control charts showed 320 fatal crashes when 250 was the expected goal given heavily ramped up enforcement. It's a failed model - but subjects other than speed and alcohol (and a narrow approach to those) are banned.., hence the ramblings re bikers stopping in at cafes to get pickled. They're trying to blame the victims and scare people off bikes in order they won't miss toll targets (KPI) so bad as currently are?!?.

Interesting. What's dak? Still needs comparitive data to put it into perspective, and to validate the theory that pissed old pharts on "new tech" bikes are worthy of aprobation.

It'll be interesting to see the reply...

In a meeting I had with ACC, I was informed that the "born again" (I cant actually remember how she put it) riders are statistically the highest with Motorcycle Accidents

Again, there's a significant bulge in the demographic riding, "most fatalities" doesn't nescessarily mean "highest risk". Having said that, much as I'd be surprised to find older guys are more at risk per kilometer ridden it may well be the case.

Cache Wraith

3rd December 2007, 21:52

Whether his comments are correct or not, to me is irrelevant at this point. This smacks of damage control after the accident with the Police vehicle and motorcycles.

Ixion

3rd December 2007, 22:01

One problem with statistics about motorcycles, is that (as the Neptunic gentleman intimates) it is very difficult to know what proportion of the total an injury or fatality figure represents. That is, if say 100 motorcyclists of a certain age are killed or injured is that a big or small percentage of the total number of that riding.

The reason it is hard is because so many older people still have a Class 6 on their licence but haven't ridden for years. With cars one can reasonably assume that someone with a licence drives at least sometimes . But that doesn't work with bikes. People got a class 6 when they were 16 and are now 60, still have the class 6 but haven't been on a bike since they were 18 and got a car. So we don't actually know how many, say, 40 to 50 year old riders there are in total.

Also, what IS a Born Again Biker. I know what it means, but what are the criteria, How many years do you have to be non-riding before you qualify as a BAB? And how many years riding again before you are no longer one?

I strongly suspect that Mr Tooman is calssifying ANY biker in the 40 to 60 year old age group as a BAB.

jtzzr

3rd December 2007, 22:03

Get rid of the ...........old .......guys.........

they...

take up

Speaking of peanuts.....

I remember......

No I do`nt

Where`s the Coromandhole again?

TonyB

3rd December 2007, 22:04

Mr Tooman is also worried about ....
Its probably just a misquote- something he added later in conversation as a general comment

jtzzr

3rd December 2007, 22:11

Get the crazy hooligans of the Coro , Damn so noboby can organise a ride then? Should we get Leo Booman to come along on his godimafuckwit250?

candor

3rd December 2007, 22:19

I fail to grasp your point....
Is it not possible that a reading of less than 31 is attributable to something other than an alcoholic beverage?

I personally know one of those riders and he didnt have anything to drink . that makes it 27 out of 34. sounds far fetched, or very disturbing.

"27 of the 35 riders killed in 2006 had alcohol." That was the finding of the Police. That doesn’t conflict with your friend not drinking. Because if 27 out of 35 had alcohol, then by my math 8 did not. Yes disturbing - & ODD! Sorry about your friend too.

Maybe some who were under 31 BAC tested positive due to cough mixture or something, It's still a high number at those levels. I'm not suggesting they had dak too -I'm more thinking the results from the Polices drug driving study for that year, and the one before give a strong foundation for such speculation.

Oops I didn't make at all clear the factual basis of the line of thought in prior post - wasn’t thinking..
Polices drink and drugged driver control study shows a trend exists for the dead to have THC plus low alcohol combo, tho there’s no breakdowns by road user type as yet.

Way more dead drivers (includes riders) in NZ with low BAC had recent use (shown by over 10ng of active THC) than had smoked with a high BAC in a 2004-5 result analyses.. The low BAC/Dak association was reported by Carolina Troncoso Vergara at Waikato Uni. Her thesis re this is on the net.

One beer (on known risks) should not be putting people at risk for death in those numbers. Unless bikers are cheap drunks! Either many of these riders had some other common risk factor (NZ Police study + Dr Philip Swanns research and that of Ramaekers suggests THC)…. or 90% of bikers on the road have just had a beer - making the figures in the daed ones just a reflection of a common behaviour (scratches head).

Jafar - NOT of benefit, looks dodgy to me.

Ixion

3rd December 2007, 22:25

Get the crazy hooligans of the Coro , Damn so noboby can organise a ride then? Should we get Leo Booman to come along on his godimafuckwit250?

Well, he probably has a class 6 licence, cos he's an ex-snake, and they all did.

Bass

4th December 2007, 08:21

Lets not forget that 75% of Motorcyclist accidents are caused by Motorists.

I am sorry, but this is not correct.
I am thunderstruck by what you have gone through and I stand in awe at how you have coped and what you have accomplished since, but this needs to be corrected.

http://www.rideforever.co.nz/community/crash_data.html

I had always believed that about 75% of car vs bike accidents have the car driver at fault but this thread says otherwise. It says less than half (49%) are the car driver's fault and this is at odds with what I have always thought.
It also implies that about 27% of bike accidents are single vehicle events and I believed it to be higher.
Even so, in a single vehicle accident, unless there has been some mechanical failure, then the rider was at fault. I see the "ride to the conditions" adage derided in here often, but the fact remains that if you do so, it may save your arse. It is also my understanding that people returning to biking after many years away (born again bikers if you will) are over represented in the single vehicle numbers. I personally fall into this category and yes, I appear in those numbers. I do concede however that most of the evidence for these numbers appears to be anecdotal at best.
Ixion is correct about licence hangovers from way back and he describes my circumstances exactly. I even still have all the truck and trailer categories but haven't driven a truck in decades.
However, if some allowance is made for journalese and the need to sell newspapers, then there may well be more than a modicum of truth in what Mr Tooman has said.
Lastly, if you do the arithmetic on the numbers in the thread I have quoted (27% + (.51 x 73%)) = 64.2% of all motorcycle accidents have the rider at fault.

Big Dave

4th December 2007, 08:23

Well, that's good. The exercise will help you lose weight. I'll send you my invoice, I'm cheaper than Jenny Craig (and better looking) .

.......now.

Genestho

4th December 2007, 10:14

The ACC resource site (that was another resource open to me via ACC if I was interested in following up Motorcycling Safety but I wasnt interested in those figures - havent chased them down either as again theyre not the figures or issues I address and I dont need to open those issues up, Im the only one on my Team until I open up memebership to BADD and theres alot to do.)

Perhaps I should stick to the figures I DO know and not quote from unreliable media Heee. (Blush):cool::stupid:

(Lesson number 5022 in the aftermath of Leons death and inception of BADD)

Cheers for posting the link to something I shouldve resourced before
spouting!!

:Offtopic:Hey soOOoooo in that case is there a local KB'er with personality that would like to do an interview on behalf on the Biking Community representing BADD, as to what your biggest concerns are as Motorcyclists around Motorists, I can think of a few myself, but anything other than the obvious - check your mirrors often, be aware that Motorcyclists are quicker than you think when doing a U'ey, gently move left so Motorcyclists can see the road ahead, using indicators to let Motorcyclists know what your doing
and the old favourite please dont pass in front of an oncoming Motorcycle!?

Ixion will you post the reply from Leo here?
Cheers

Pixie

4th December 2007, 10:31

Got to shift the media's attention away from why revenue based road policing isn't reducing the road toll

Ocean1

4th December 2007, 11:48

One problem with statistics about motorcycles, is that (as the Neptunic gentleman intimates) it is very difficult to know what proportion of the total an injury or fatality figure represents.

So, if a clever person were to set up a poll on KB, asking for actual hard numbers, what would be a good data set to get? I can't think of a more concise measurement than prangs per Km. To that end I guess you'd need a classification of rider and kilometers per bin. Even better might be a complete individual history with total Ks/bin and provision for "NA" (no bike) periods. Bit hard to do with the tools available I suspect, unless someone were to knock up a questionnaire.

Either way the data required should allow an accurate assessment of experience and perhaps define categories of "bin" from "I felled over" to serious injury, (bit unreasonable to expect the dead dudes to contribute though).

Such data could be politically useful, a valid counter to the more seriously tweaked surveys used by some lobbyists and institutions. Not to mention instructive on a personal level.

Any of you lot really really bored?

terbang

4th December 2007, 11:55

If we are such a bunch of silly old drunken farts then it is education, not legislation that we need. But any high ranking cop should be able to figure that one out. Right..?

The Pastor

4th December 2007, 12:00

Ocean1

4th December 2007, 12:11

If we are such a bunch of silly old drunken farts then it is education, not legislation that we need. But any high ranking cop should be able to figure that one out. Right..?

Dude the various authorities and special interest groups have spent millions over the last few years "educating" us, and to be perfectly frank I don't feel much enlightened. Maybe that's because I'm a higerant bastard, but I suspect it's more to do with the sales pitch and the reliability of the source data. Even the more pliant and compliant among us must be getting somewhat blasé with the sheer volume of Orwellian oratory. Me? I'm just sick of being preached at.

As for legislation? If it ain’t based on cold hard un-tweaked facts it’s useless in controlling behaviour. Whether it’s prudent and clearly understood or not if it’s not enforced it’s worthless, and potentially dangerous.

SlashWylde

4th December 2007, 12:30

You bunch of cry babies seem to have an uncanny ability to take what is obviously a generalised comment very personally.

Aggreed.

Moreover it has been reported in the last few years that some older riders getting back into biking have had crashes due to the rider not realising that their skill level is what it once was, and that modern bikes are more powerful and accelerate faster than bikes of previous generations.

As for the beer, "stopping at the odd cafe to enjoy a beer, can be a recipe for disaster". Drinking and driving is a bad idea, no matter what vehicle you are piloting.

His comments are valid, what's the big deal?

candor

4th December 2007, 12:46

It's just the timing of them.... that's objectionable. Well he's got people thinking. Usually Tooman talks a bit more sense than other mouthpieces I've noticed.

Ocean1

4th December 2007, 12:51

Aggreed.

Moreover it has been reported in the last few years that some older riders getting back into biking have had crashes due to the rider not realising that their skill level is what it once was, and that modern bikes are more powerful and accelerate faster than bikes of previous generations.

As for the beer, "stopping at the odd cafe to enjoy a beer, can be a recipe for disaster". Drinking and driving is a bad idea, no matter what vehicle you are piloting.

His comments are valid, what's the big deal?

"It has been reported"? Fer fuck's sake, if you can't express it in numbers what you've got is an opinion, not a fact.

The problem I've got, (yes it's a big list but I do keep track), is the headline, the only FACT in the article relates to drivers being on the wrong side of the road in two crashes, and yet the headline is "Concern at danger of born again bikies"

Mr Tooman may well be concerned about a particular flavour of "bikies" but the general tone of the article ties "danger" to "born again bikies".

As Mr Ixion points out:

Such generalised coments, if not refuted, very quickly enter the corpus of received wisdom, the things "that everybody knows", and all too frequently lead to quite particular regulations and restrictions.

mstriumph

4th December 2007, 12:57

You bunch of cry babies seem to have an uncanny ability to take what is obviously a generalised comment very personally.

c'mon - how about the breastbeating that goes on on here when someone makes a sweeping generalisation about - gasp - the cops??

PC is a double-edged sword methinks!

mstriumph

4th December 2007, 13:17

Aggreed.

Moreover it has been reported in the last few years that some older riders getting back into biking have had crashes due to the rider not realising that their skill level is what it once was, and that modern bikes are more powerful and accelerate faster than bikes of previous generations.

As for the beer, "stopping at the odd cafe to enjoy a beer, can be a recipe for disaster". Drinking and driving is a bad idea, no matter what vehicle you are piloting.

His comments are valid, what's the big deal?
mebbe the 'big deal' is that his comments are valid GENERALLY but he has targetted one sector of road users with them SPECIFICALLY

ie ...... it could just as truthfully be said that some DRIVERS [of any age or gender] have had crashes due to the driver not realising that their skill level is woefully inadequate for the power of the CAR they are driving ......... :devil2:

but let's not let the wider truth get in the way of re-enforcing a prejudice in the minds of the non-riding public ......... and let's not miss an opportunity to deliver a nice little homily on the dangers of the demon drink as though it's applicable to only ONE sector of road-users

sheesh!! :rofl: "what's the big DEAL?" he asks ...........

Genestho

4th December 2007, 13:48

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10445028

I just wanted to show where I quoted my "facts" from in an earlier post, not that its important, but I remember at the time bollicking the reporters over the headline, and asking a few questions in relation to the number sourced to get the stats

Motorcyclists are getting nailed, facts, figures, whatever, whoever.

What else can you do? Send a pilot vehicle ahead? Flashing Neon signs?

It comes down to both "parties" looking out

Im really intrigued to see what comes back via BRONZ

Cheers

zooter

4th December 2007, 14:55

Makes sense as the 75% statistic the Auckland city cop quoted referred to car vs bike urban crashes where it is more often the car's fault. Overall though it implies the open road record of bikers must be pretty lousy to drop the figures to 65% biker at fault.

I would like to know the figure for "biker crashes out due to unforseen hazard on corner which would have otherwise been sucessfully rounded"

Bass

4th December 2007, 14:58

"It has been reported"? Fer fuck's sake, if you can't express it in numbers what you've got is an opinion, not a fact.

Mr Tooman may well be concerned about a particular flavour of "bikies" but the general tone of the article ties "danger" to "born again bikies".

I can't supply numbers either and you are right, without them it is just an opinion, but that per se does not make it incorrect.

Bass

4th December 2007, 15:15

I would like to know the figure for "biker crashes out due to unforseen hazard on corner which would have otherwise been sucessfully rounded"

Me too.
It's a generalisation, but I think it would be true to say that we all thrash it into blind corners in the belief that the way out is clear or that we will be able to dodge anything unexpected that we encounter. I know that I do and I'm by no means a quick rider. Pushing the corners is one of the major attractions of biking when all's said and done.

However the law requires us to travel at such a speed as to be able to stop in half the clear road ahead.

The implications of that are substantial.
I have encountered such things as tourists stopped taking photos in the middle of the road, loose stock, badly parked trucks etc etc and so far I have been lucky - not skilful, just lucky - and in law at least, if I had collected any one of them, I would be at fault.
Consequently, I look forward to the police report concerning the U-turning plod and the bikers in the Buller recently

Ocean1

4th December 2007, 15:51

I would like to know the figure for "biker crashes out due to unforseen hazard on corner which would have otherwise been sucessfully rounded"

Me also, but at the risk of attempting an outright guess I'd say the 27% of single vehicle bike incidents would be almost exclusively on corners, and a bunch of the others as well. What's more It seems likely that most of them had speed as a contributing factor. Whether they occured through unforseen hazards is moot, it's comforting to blame road surface conditions but the fact remains they're a controlable variable. I'd roll out the well-beaten "ride to the conditions" except karma would make fuggen sure I paid for it next weekend, and we've all encountered fucking great potholes at an apex, all but invisible until you're on top of them...

Me too.
It's a generalisation, but I think it would be true to say that we all thrash it into blind corners in the belief that the way out is clear or that we will be able to dodge anything unexpected that we encounter. I know that I do and I'm by no means a quick rider. Pushing the corners is one of the major attractions of biking when all's said and done.

However the law requires us to travel at such a speed as to be able to stop in half the clear road ahead.

The implications of that are substantial.
I have encountered such things as tourists stopped taking photos in the middle of the road, loose stock, badly parked trucks etc etc and so far I have been lucky - not skilful, just lucky - and in law at least, if I had collected any one of them, I would be at fault.
Consequently, I look forward to the police report concerning the U-turning plod and the bikers in the Buller recently

All true, and I got no halo to polish, however that particular risk/benefit calculation that we all do at every corner is different for every one of us. If we all rode at a pace guaranteed to avoid every conceivable eventuality there’d be little point riding at all. Statistics and apocrypha both serve to modify our perceptions of where the risk lies, but no one set of rules can cover the vast unconscious dataset that's called experience.

I agree with those who call for more training, I'd like to learn more myself, honest. I'd also like to see less arguably politically motivated bullshit about bikers and riding from those who's job it is to not only know better but to actively encourage education based on accurate data. And in case the dude was quoted inapropriately, (maybe he said "pissed and incontinent") I'd like to see the press all lined up and shot. Fuckit, shoot 'em on suspicion anyway, no great loss.

Ixion

4th December 2007, 16:28

...

However the law requires us to travel at such a speed as to be able to stop in half the clear road ahead.
...

Not quite. The actual Road Code requirment is to be able to stop in half the clear distance on a one lane (no centre line) road, but only in the clear distance on a two lane (or more ) road. The rationale being that on a one lane road the thing you have to stop for may itself be tootling toward you (so you can't have the whole distance , it needs some to stop also),whereas on a two lane road anything moving SHOULD be on it's own side (Hah. Hah) . So you only need consider non moving obstacles (or very slow moving , like a cow). And thus may have the whole distance for yourself.

Is this whole "born agains can't cope with the technology of modern bikes" thing a nonsense anyway ?

Sure, modern bikes are more whizz bang than older ones. But the differences between a 2007 and a 1997 are not THAT great. And the difference between a 2007 and a 1967 are much greater, but (a) how many born agains are coming back after that big a gap anyway , and (b) even in 1967 bikes were gnerally faster than riders. A Triumph T120 may not be as fast as a GSXR750. But, few people rode the Triumph flat out all the time anyway, and what difference does it make whether one has 40kph unused or 140kph. And given the better breaks and handling on modern bikes, 100kph or 140 kph must be safer on the modern bike. I don't believe that any significant number of born agains are jumping on modern big bikes and thrashing them as hard as they'll go.

If there is a "born again crashing" phenonomen (I'm not convinced) I'd say it is simply that a born again will have spent the last X years driving a cage. So he jumps back on a bike and rides it like driving a car. He's forgotten that everyone's out to kill him, he's lost his spidey sense.

Mom

4th December 2007, 16:40

Is this whole "born agains can't cope with the technology of modern bikes" thing a nonsense anyway ?

If there is a "born again crashing" phenonomen (I'm not convinced) I'd say it is simply that a born again will have spent the last X years driving a cage. So he jumps back on a bike and rides it like driving a car. He's forgotten that everyone's out to kill him, he's lost his spidey sense.

I think that the "born again" thing is a crock of shit! The bikes I learned to ride on and then rode back in the mid 70's were basic, interesting, challenging 2 wheeled fun! You needed to be able to ride, as in my case most of my bikes were poor handling, they were mechanically unreliable, so a bit of spanner sense was important too. Modern bikes have for the most part, good suspension/engine reliability. Before I get jumped on here, I am talking about the avergae Joe on a bike, not someone looking for total performance specs.

They are "good" to ride. I am not convinced there is a "born again crashing" phenonomen either. I have been riding off and on for 30 odd years now (had a break for children raising, but rode pillion a lot of that time) so I guess I would fit the born again description. Have been back on 2 wheels for the last 5 years or so, only come off once in that time. Was at slow speed, on gravel, rounding a bend, avoiding a dog! Shit happens!

spudchucka

4th December 2007, 18:34

c'mon - how about the breastbeating that goes on on here when someone makes a sweeping generalisation about - gasp - the cops??

PC is a double-edged sword methinks!

Fair comment. However in almost all cases the cop bashers are completely off the mark and when they are corrected or offered the truth it inevitably turns into a shit fight, which is why I can't be bothered attempting a diplomatic approach any longer.

mstriumph

4th December 2007, 18:38

'born again'

:mellow:

i have no words to describe how much i despise cute, marginally-derogatory catch-phrases like that

OR those in power that use them to somehow imply they have some sort of sense of humour/common touch whilst simultaneously reconfirming, to themselves, their own unwarranted sense of superiority

:no: sorry - prolly low bloodsugar ....

mstriumph

4th December 2007, 18:41

Fair comment. .........when they are corrected or offered the truth it inevitably turns into a shit fight, ........... erm :cool: like now, when the boot's on the other foot, you mean? :whistle:

diplomacy? for wimps ......

Daffyd

4th December 2007, 18:47

Me too.

However the law requires us to travel at such a speed as to be able to stop in half the clear road ahead.

Not strictly correct. On a 2 lane road with a centre line we are required to be able to stop 'in the clear road ahead'. on a road without a centre line we are required to be able to stop 'in half the clear road ahead'.

Bass

4th December 2007, 19:03

Not quite. The actual Road Code requirment is to be able to stop in half the clear distance on a one lane (no centre line) road, but only in the clear distance on a two lane (or more ) road. The rationale being that on a one lane road the thing you have to stop for may itself be tootling toward you (so you can't have the whole distance , it needs some to stop also),whereas on a two lane road anything moving SHOULD be on it's own side (Hah. Hah) . So you only need consider non moving obstacles (or very slow moving , like a cow). And thus may have the whole distance for yourself.

Thanks for the clarification Les

Is this whole "born agains can't cope with the technology of modern bikes" thing a nonsense anyway ?

I think that the "born again" thing is a crock of shit!

With respect folks, I disagree.
But then I am bound to because, as it turns out, I am the absolute epitome of the "born again" biker.

I got my bike licence on a 50 cc moped and while I had dabbled across a fair section of machinery, I never spent significant time on anything bigger than a 250. After 30 years of non ownership (and almost no motorcycling in any form) I bought an RF 900.
I have been fortunate in that one of the early lessons that life taught me was that there is no substitute for experience and in this instance I had none.
So I rode accordingly.
I got 13,000 km out of the first back tyre and it wasn't new when I got the bike. I got 10,000 out of the second and about 8,000 out of the rest. They were exclusively the same model Metzelers - Z3's I think. I did an RRRS course 2up because early on, Nicky decided she liked it on the back, but I had the machine for nearly 2 months before I would let her ride with me. It must have been at least 6 months before I gave it full noise and after 18months I went out to a "controlled testing day" (basically a public track day) at Pukekohe.

Now, some 90,000 km later, I suppose that I may have got the front wheel off the ground a few cm occasionally, but it has never been deliberate. I have no confidence in my ability to deal with the possible consequences if I do pull a wheelie.

So I think you could safely say that I have been careful and methodical about learning to ride, but I still figure in the bin statistics. I had an off and I had it because the bike could get me into more shit than I could get myself out of, before I even realised I was there.

I joined Ulysses and I saw several people who had done the later return to 2 wheels thing. I also saw a few of them push it with the inevitable results.

Anyway guys, this is just my opinion and as we all know, opinions are like arseholes. If you want some more qualified opinions than mine, can I suggest that you ask John Baker insurance as they insure heaps of old farts like me and MAY have some data on the "recently returned to riding" accident statistics

doc

4th December 2007, 19:06

Fair comment. I can't be bothered attempting a diplomatic approach any longer.

With your attitude, you seem to be anti most KB'r type comments. Isn't about time you looked at perfing or something.
Not picking on your but you attitude comes across as what we grizzle about the most.

RT527

4th December 2007, 19:12

spudchucka

5th December 2007, 12:48

With your attitude, you seem to be anti most KB'r type comments. Isn't about time you looked at perfing or something.
Not picking on your but you attitude comes across as what we grizzle about the most.

I'm anti bullshit in regards to police matters and most of what you lot whinge about is ill-informed BS.

mstriumph

5th December 2007, 18:55

that's a bit exclusive, surely?

I'm just anti-'bullsh#t in general'............ irrespective of players or context

..... cause that gives everyone, plod included, equal opportunity to invoke my dark side ......

don't EVER suggest i'm not PC :devil2:

Swoop

5th December 2007, 19:07

And thank god for air bags,
Why? There is no god, and airbags were invented by a human being.

:lol:

Usarka

5th December 2007, 19:28

I'm anti bullshit in regards to police matters and most of what you lot whinge about is ill-informed BS.

at least most of us can post about more than one topic........ :whistle:

spudchucka

6th December 2007, 05:13

at least most of us can post about more than one topic........ :whistle:

Unlike most it would appear that I have other things in my life and can't be bothered reading 90% of the dribble that gets posted. I only reply to topics that interest me.

Katman

6th December 2007, 05:44

Lets not forget that 75% of Motorcyclist accidents are caused by Motorists.

No, 75% of motorcycle accidents involve another vehicle. Of that 75% only half are the fault of the other vehicle. Therefore, motorcyclists are responsible for about 65% of motorcycle accidents. And I still maintain that of that other 35% there would be a large percentage that could have been avoided by better rider management.

Banesto John

6th December 2007, 06:44

Have a look at the ride reports on KB about the Coromandel loop, the reported crashes, the reported "had a beer"s, and then wonder whether Toomath reads here, as well.

He also echoing observations by lots of members on this and other forums about born-again riders, as well as reporting what his officers tell him.

Doesn't it strike you that he must see and have reported to him a lot more of what goes on on the roads than any one of us does?

Leo Tooman is in charge of traffic in the area that kills more people than most. He has a handful to deal with. He got it wrong this time. I've just read the quoted article and I don't really see what the fuss is about. Yes, he is wrong to blame bikers for the recent deaths, clearly they are the cage drivers fault. But maybe his minions have had to pick up born again bikers who are in denial regarding their appalling speeds and riding behaviour.

Maybe if the fuzz would educate their own not to u-turn on a blind bend we'd have at least a couple of other people without injuries.

spudchucka

6th December 2007, 06:49

Misinformed at times

At times??? Its the KB way.

NighthawkNZ

6th December 2007, 06:52

Going by what I have read on KB with how many bins have happened recently, how many accidents, and ... to me sounds like a lot of you are either incompetant and or pissed or ego driven rage. And thats not just the so called born again bikers.

unhingedlizard

6th December 2007, 07:24

couldnt be bothered trollinh through 9 pages of this stuff but has anyone mentioned that all these comment revolve around a story printed in the media? Any chance it could have been edited/misquoted to get the sort of reactions seen here?

Pinch of salt fellas.

Quasievil

6th December 2007, 07:38

I Havent read all the posts so dont know where the debate is going but I agree with Mr Tooman in many ways.

Fact is (and it is a fact) that every weekend there is shitloads of bikers coming down from Auckland onto waikato roads and shitloads of them crash
yes ....................shitloads, why is that?
here you go here are the reasons
1/ bigger egos than your skill set
2/ Bikes more capable than your riding skills
3/ Stupid dum behaviour by the riders
4/ Riders CONSTANTLY thinking the roads are race tracks
5/ The Riders that do stop and have a beer then most of the above gets inflated

He stated some facts born from data he gets on his desk, and has enough data to make such a comment, he didnt pull it out of his arse.

Many KBrs as well as other bikers need to pull their heads in when riding on the road, thats a fact.
I personally dont ride on KB group rides for the mere reason that many of you are dangerous and stupid within these rides and I dont want to be part of it, dont get me wrong, I think that 90% of KBrs are very good riders and very capable motorcyclists, but there would be at least 10% of you that havent got a fucking clue how to ride safely.
Since being on KB ive see easily 15 crashes on KB rides plus Two Fatalities , the record is 5 crashes on one ride no cars in sight either, I also been two 5 funerals in the last two years and carried two of my best mates "show off" arses to the grave

I suggest that you all consider that actually motorcylists are essentially responsible for there own demise and that Mr tooman and the police in general have every right to be concerned and they definately should be targeting bikers with some attention.

Thats my lot, you can start red repping me if you dont like the truth.

Patch

6th December 2007, 07:47

Usarka

6th December 2007, 07:53

While i agree with what you say Quasi, I'd hazard a guess that most of the riders you are describing aren't the ones the cop is refering to....

Mr Tooman is ...worried about a series of motorcycle crashes. He says a large number of "born-again" motorcyclists are coming down from Auckland to cruise Coromandel and Waikato roads.

Mr Tooman says technology has moved on a bit since they last rode. He says that, coupled with stopping at the odd cafe to enjoy a beer, can be a recipe for disaster

My observations is that most of the riders you describe are 20's- 30's males.

I think also that part of the reaction was that this came out after a bad weekend of crashes and fatalities of which there is little evidence that a) the riders were at fault, and b) they were of the type he described.

A week later and he may have got a different reaction....

scumdog

6th December 2007, 08:15

Many KBrs as well as other bikers need to pull their heads in when riding on the road, thats a fact.
I personally dont ride on KB group rides for the mere reason that many of you are dangerous and stupid within these rides and I dont want to be part of it, dont get me wrong, I think that 90% of KBrs are very good riders and very capable motorcyclists, but there would be at least 10% of you that havent got a fucking clue how to ride safely.

Maybe it's a locality thing Quasi but so far all the KB group rides I've been on are OK - riders well spaced, no 'clowning', no egos, slowing down/turning indicated in tons of time and always very aware of the less-experienced riders abilities
And in case some think we're all old fart some of the group are barely in their 20s' (no teenagers though).

Sure, shit happens, always has but I get the impression a lot seems to be 'self-inflicted shit'.

jrandom

6th December 2007, 08:31

Maybe it's a locality thing Quasi but so far all the KB group rides I've been on are OK - riders well spaced, no 'clowning', no egos...

I'm guessing you haven't been on any 'sportbike swarm' rides full of young guys on ZXCBYRZGFSXRRRRRs, though.

In all fairness, I get the impression that the attitude on the Auckland and Waikato KB rides has improved over the past year. I hope that my impression is accurate.

Ixion

6th December 2007, 09:02

h

Fact is (and it is a fact) that every weekend there is shitloads of bikers coming down from Auckland onto waikato roads and shitloads of them crash
yes ....................shitloads, why is that?
here you go here are the reasons
1/ bigger egos than your skill set
2/ Bikes more capable than your riding skills
3/ Stupid dum behaviour by the riders
4/ Riders CONSTANTLY thinking the roads are race tracks
5/ The Riders that do stop and have a beer then most of the above gets inflated

He stated some facts born from data he gets on his desk, and has enough data to make such a comment, he didnt pull it out of his arse.

I suggest that you all consider that actually motorcylists are essentially responsible for there own demise and that Mr tooman and the police in general have every right to be concerned and they definately should be targeting bikers with some attention.

The reasons you give are quite different from those given by Mr Tooman. I am only concerned with Mr Tooman's coments, because they are made by him , in an official capacity, in the public media.

He alleges :

That motorcycles crashes in the Waikato are caused by Auckland riders
That they are caused by Born Again Bikers who cannot handle the modern technology of their bikes
That they have because the riders have been drinking beer in cafes.
Now , as to the statement that he has data for these allegations. Well, he certainly cannot have data to suppoort his claim that the crashes are caused by BABs. Because there is no definition of what a BAB is, and certainly no tick box for it on the crash reports. So that is pure speculation on his part.

He may have data to support his claim that the problem is entirely caused by Auckland riders, but I will remain very sceptical till I see a reference to that data. It seems very improbable that NONE of the Waikato crashes were locals.

He may also have data to support his claim that the crashes were caused by intoxication. But I remain sceptical on that also, certainly if he is claiming (as he implies0 that the riders were over the legal limit.

That there is a (small) percentage of riders who ride unsafely cannot be denied . Just as a small percentage of cagers drive unsafely . And I have always been one of the first to condemn such unsafe behaviour. But those riders and behaviours are NOT those which we (and you ) condemn . Mr Tooman has not condemned any of the crash causing behaviours which you list. Nor have you listed any of his ,apart from the drinking.

I do not know of ANY KB rider who has crashed in the Waikato whilst drunk. Let alone a BAB who has crashed drunk, let alone a drunk Auckland BAB who crashed because the technology of his bike was too much for him. Do you know of any such crash ? Nor have ANY of the lamentable KB deaths fitted such a demographic. Yet Mr Tooman says that all the Waikato motorcycle crashes are caused by these drunken Auckland technologicaly challenged BABs. You ascribe them to quite different causes. So if one of you is right the other must be wrong (or both are wrong of course)

Perjorative statements such as Mr Tooman's which savour far more of emotive witchhunting than reasoned analysis are unhelpful and put all motorcyclists in a bad light.

It is important that when such claims are made by thos ein authority they are challenged to prove them. Because otherwise the public will accept them as fact and form the basis for yet another official withhunt.

As to the point that Mr Tooman may have been misquoted - this is quite possible, but in that case it is up to him to correct the errant publication. We cannot do it for him. If he remains silent we must assume that he is content that he was correctly reported.

EDIT:
Some actual data.

Motorcycle crashes in the Waikato and Thames/Coromandel regions

2006 Waikato 16 (1 fatal) Coromandel 10 (1 fatal) total 26
2005 ........... 9 ..1...........................9 0 ...................8
2004 ............15..0...........................7 0 ...................22

I don't know if those constitute a "shitload". But I would be willing to put money that they were not all drunken Auckland BABs who couldn't cope with their bikes.

Jantar

6th December 2007, 09:04

Maybe it's a locality thing Quasi but so far all the KB group rides I've been on are OK - riders well spaced, no 'clowning', no egos, slowing down/turning indicated in tons of time and always very aware of the less-experienced riders abilities
And in case some think we're all old fart some of the group are barely in their 20s' (no teenagers though).

I'm guessing you haven't been on any 'sportbike swarm' rides full of young guys on ZXCBYRZGFSXRRRRRs, though.

We tend to get a real mix of bikes on Otago rides. Its not unusual to find cruisers, commuters, sports bikes and adventure bikes all out together. Then on the ocassions that we are fortunate enough to meet up with the Canterbury crowd with Guzzies and Buells thrown in as well, the rides are just the same, enjoyable.

Maybe its because riders down south don't have anything to prove, we enjoy each others company, and our great roads.

Ixion

6th December 2007, 09:08

I'm guessing you haven't been on any 'sportbike swarm' rides full of young guys on ZXCBYRZGFSXRRRRRs, though.

In all fairness, I get the impression that the attitude on the Auckland and Waikato KB rides has improved over the past year. I hope that my impression is accurate.

Hold on. How can "young guys" be Born Again Bikers ? It's a contraiction in terms.

jrandom

6th December 2007, 09:12

Hold on. How can "young guys" be Born Again Bikers ? It's a contraiction in terms.

I agree wholeheartedly with your points in regard to Mr Tooman's statements being so much unjustified blather. I wasn't addressing them directly.

Then again, I myself did a bit of a BAB earlier this year. Two years out of the saddle, followed by a GSX-R750 and then, three weeks later, a highside and a broken thumb.

:laugh:

idb

6th December 2007, 09:20

Sort of like how all cops became rapists once a complaint was made against a top ranking cop?

I just find it odd that you all have to have another man present when you have sex.

Bass

6th December 2007, 09:35

EDIT:
Some actual data.

Motorcycle crashes in the Waikato and Thames/Coromandel regions

2006 Waikato 16 (1 fatal) Coromandel 10 (1 fatal) total 26
2005 ........... 9 ..1...........................9 0 ...................8
2004 ............15..0...........................7 0 ...................22

I don't know if those constitute a "shitload". But I would be willing to put money that they were not all drunken Auckland BABs who couldn't cope with their bikes.

While I don't entirely agree with some of your logic, you do make some sound points.
One question - what sort of accidents do your numbers derive from?
Let me clarify that.
I would expect that e.g. 2006 in the Waikato district, there would be many more than 16 accidents if all the minor "offs" where the ploddery were not involved, are taken into account. So does this data derive from injury accidents, police involved accidents or some other qualification?

Coyote

6th December 2007, 09:46

I don't think cops are even that good at catching speeders. They haven't got me since my first month of riding. I had an L plate on so I was easy game. It's been 3 years now to this day that I got my licence. Don't know why everyone complains about them.

Coyote

6th December 2007, 09:51

Also I've crashed a fukton and I shouldn't be on the road. Not that I have ever been counted under their statistics since I always get the trailer home

spudchucka

6th December 2007, 10:16

I just find it odd that you all have to have another man present when you have sex.

You want me to give you a call next time I get the baton out?

idb

6th December 2007, 10:31

That happened 30 years ago. We're the left-overs, didn't you know?

So that's where Elvis went!

idb

6th December 2007, 10:33

That my be, but what about all the God like intoxication. Then there's the coming Rapture, speaking in tongues and the complexities of the sermon just to confuse you even more. Motorcycles can be ridden to church but not back home it's just to dangerouse. Ask Zed he saw the light.:niceone:

Skyyrder

I don't think we need to get too exorcised about this.

idb

6th December 2007, 10:44

You want me to give you a call next time I get the baton out?

Ooooerrr officer!

tri boy

6th December 2007, 10:55

Havn't yet seen Mr L Tooman, or any of his Waikato colleagues on the gravel roads yet.
"Why is that"? you ask.
Because its the safest play to be on a bike.:msn-wink:
(cept for creeks):oi-grr:
The bloke has probably overeacted, more out of frustration than anything else.
But lets also be honest here. Akld riders do use Waikato roads as race tracks. Simple. Coro loop anyone?
I have also been on a couple of Akld runs sth, and the pace on backroads on Sundays is pretty crazy. Kids are playing/riding horses/walking dogs etc, and a GRPWXTSR80056 comes screaming round a corner just in time to avoid a John Deere crossing the road. (admit it, its happened to you).
Use the track days for that, ease up this summer,(especially with hay making etc going on), and live to trade up to next years models.
Simple really.:mellow: Or do it on your own turf. Akld needs the revenue to build roading for the Rugby Stadium that will be ready in time.:killingme

The Stranger

6th December 2007, 12:00

It seems some people find it easier to blame others, rather than looking in the mirror and being honest with themselves.

Fact is . . . the truth does hurt when it hits home.

Brett is right (again and again), a shame that those that need too, don't listen to the message.

Life is dangerous enough without living on the edge - those that do, do so at their own peril.

Oh the irony!
With all due respect Patch, you are one of the loosest cannons I know.

I say with all due respect, because you are a nice guy and you do have skills and can pull a mean wheelie.

But I have seen some pretty bloody dicey decisions from you, e.g. pulling wheelies past other bikes in the same lane through the middle of a funeral procession. Overtaking on double yellows on a wet road at dusk etc etc
Yet you are prepared to pontificate on others.

Now where's my mirror?

Dave_G

6th December 2007, 19:38

Mr Tooman says technology has moved on a bit since they last rode.

Yeah, it has. This guy should talk to a few of his own Motorcycle Mounties, bikes now may well be faster but they are quantum leaps ahead of bikes that these "born again riders" would have ridden 20-30yrs back. I learned back then (andhaven't ever stopped riding) and rode some of the early superbikes (Z900's H2 Kawa's and so on) and can say from experience that the advancements in frame, suspension and brake technology and most significantly tyre technology have made riding safer from where I sit. I firmly believe that todays bikes are untold easier to ride and have much higher safety limits so this bollocks about technoloy improvements being an issue is just that, bollocks. Like I say, these are comments made out of ignorance not knowledge.