Campervan accident - I'm puzzled how...

[Duc]

What puzzles me about this tragic incident is how did four MCs get involved in one accident. One or two I might understand but...

I am curious about what sort of formation and proximities th e motor cyclists may have been riding in that they all were unable to avoid the campervan or maybe each other once involved.

Wonder if there is something to learn from this tragedy.

[magicfairy]

Wasn't it 2 bikes, both with pillions?

[Steam]

Wonder if there is something to learn from this tragedy.
There's certainly something for you to learn... read the news reports more carefully to see whether they were pillioning.

[Duc]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10480914

I believe you will find that this article mentions two other MCs involved. 2+2=4

[Steam]

Oh yeah you are right. Owww I just burned myself!

[Duc]

Apology accepted.

[Tank]

Apology accepted.

Don't be so gracious. - its not the KB way.:oi-grr:

[xwhatsit]

When large groups of riders ride in staggered formation, it's usually a good idea. Staggered formation allows a bit of extra breathing room for braking etc, as if it really gets bad you can go up alongside them. What I have noticed though, is that people tend to reduce their following distances anyway, because they've got the extra breathing room that the formation allows. This means there's less opportunity to swerve and avoid things, I suppose.

Just a thought, I'm not terribly experienced with formation-style rides.

[HTFU]

Multitude of ways the accident could have gone.

I am guessing that the first two bikes bore the brunt of the impact and the next two in line came off a bit better.

But shit one of the bikes could have been 4th in a line up and still got hit or in trying to avoid the van went off the road etc.

Tragic days riding that one.

[Usarka]

it was a head on for fucks sake. have you ever played ten pin bowling?

[Conquiztador]

The bikes going 100K/h and the camper going 100K/h in opposite directions.

That is the same as if you were going 200K/h towards a concrete wall.

That makes it a fraction over 55m/sec towards each other.

Measure out 55 meters outside (55 long steps) and you will see that it is a fair distance. You would easily think that it was enough for you to make an evasive move. Then say loud: "Onehundredone" and that is all the time you have to do something over that 55 meters before you smack in to that concrete wall at 200K/h...

[Mikkel]

The bikes going 100K/h and the camper going 100K/h in opposite directions.

That makes it a fraction over 55m/sec towards each other.

That is the same as if you were going 200K/h towards a concrete wall.

Measure out 55 meters outside (55 long steps) and you will see that it is a fair distance. You would easily think that it was enough for you to make an evasive move. Then say loud: "Onehundredone" and that is all the time you have to do something over that 55 meters before you smack in to that concrete wall at 200K/h...

Add to that the camper van was lying down at 90° to the road and blocking a lot of it.


Don't be so gracious. - its not the KB way.:oi-grr:

Indeed - the proper response is summed up in the attached image. ;)

[Duc]

Not sure where you got the speed info from. Who told you that was the case in this instance? (Could have been more or could have been less so thats conjecture on your part)

Quote : "it was a head on for fucks sake. have you ever played ten pin bowling?"

Huh? Unfortunately and sadly it may have been for the front riders... but what about the rest?

One common sense rule of the driving is one should be able to stop in half the visible clear distance ahead. This is really applicable to following drivers/ riders. I frequently see group riders well inside the basic two second rule (staggered or otherwise).

We will never know exactly what the situation was that caused this massive tragedy but we do need to think about things in case they happen to us or our mates - and then learn from it

[sunhuntin]

have you ever ridden in a group? i have numerous times [only ever on special events like a charity or protest ride] and can see easily how an incident such as this could get so nasty. there is no reaction time when you come around a corner and are faced with a camper van racing towards you. its a wonder there were not more riders injured/killed. sure, people ride staggered, but even that is no defence to this. staggered is more so you can see the road and have allowance for braking. im betting the 4 bikes involved did NOT have the chance to brake. from what i can see from the photo, there were no skidmarks from the bikes.

[Conquiztador]

Not sure where you got the speed info from. Who told you that was the case in this instance? (Could have been more or could have been less so thats conjecture on your part)

Quote : "it was a head on for fucks sake. have you ever played ten pin bowling?"

Huh? Unfortunately and sadly it may have been for the front riders... but what about the rest?

One common sense rule of the driving is one should be able to stop in half the visible clear distance ahead. This is really applicable to following drivers/ riders. I frequently see group riders well inside the basic two second rule (staggered or otherwise).

We will never know exactly what the situation was that caused this massive tragedy but we do need to think about things in case they happen to us or our mates - and then learn from it


Dude, you can learn how much you want. The reality is that if a car/camper van that is coming in the other direction suddenly veers toward you at speed while you happily are riding minding your own business you are history. (The driver admitted fault, she admitted that she got the wheels off the tarseal and on to the gravel on the l/h side, then she over corrected and got on to the wrong side smashing in to the bikes).

A very sad situation. For the riders, their families, but also for the driver who made a mistake that killed 4 riders. As far as I can tell she is a normal girl who phucked up badly with this tragic result.

But to try to say that the riders should have been expecting something like this and been prepared.

[sunhuntin]

from stuff:


The front two riders had no time to avoid the van. One rider was killed at the scene and his pillion was thrown 15m over a hedge and also killed.

The second bike was carrying MacDonald, with his daughter riding pillion.

The riders of two motorcycles coming up behind swerved or struck other vehicles, and two received broken bones and cuts.

[McDuck]

Ouchies.....

[Usarka]

Not sure where you got the speed info from. Who told you that was the case in this instance? (Could have been more or could have been less so thats conjecture on your part)

Quote : "it was a head on for fucks sake. have you ever played ten pin bowling?"

Huh? Unfortunately and sadly it may have been for the front riders... but what about the rest?

One common sense rule of the driving is one should be able to stop in half the visible clear distance ahead. This is really applicable to following drivers/ riders. I frequently see group riders well inside the basic two second rule (staggered or otherwise).

We will never know exactly what the situation was that caused this massive tragedy but we do need to think about things in case they happen to us or our mates - and then learn from it

Do you ride on the road? you obviously havent been in the situation of having to avoid a possible head on. let alone with something as big as a campervan thats lost control.

[Duc]

From the responses I guess you are all saying that this group of bikes were riding fairly close together in a tight formation where it was un avoidable that they all got involved due to lack of space and time for the back ones to respond to any situation up front.

Thats what I think also.

Thing I learnt from this tragedy is make even more space around me than I do now. (space = time)

BTW : I hope I am never ever put in the head on situation . Getting taken out by a U-turner was enough of a warning for me.

[KATWYN]

We stopped riding in groups a long time ago because of that sorta thing.

But sometimes someone will just invite us into their accident no matter how prepared we are

[ElCoyote]

Not sure where you got the speed info from. Who told you that was the case in this instance? (Could have been more or could have been less so thats conjecture on your part)

Quote : "it was a head on for fucks sake. have you ever played ten pin bowling?"

Huh? Unfortunately and sadly it may have been for the front riders... but what about the rest?

One common sense rule of the driving is one should be able to stop in half the visible clear distance ahead. This is really applicable to following drivers/ riders. I frequently see group riders well inside the basic two second rule (staggered or otherwise).

We will never know exactly what the situation was that caused this massive tragedy but we do need to think about things in case they happen to us or our mates - and then learn from it

I agree with most of what you say but "half the clear visible distance" becomes somewhat of a moot point when it happens right in front of you. One analogy would be, you are on a narrow bridge and the oncoming cage driver has a heart attack or goes to sleep. Not being picky but we weren't there. :calm::calm:

[sunhuntin]

I agree with most of what you say but "half the clear visible distance" becomes somewhat of a moot point when it happens right in front of you. One analogy would be, you are on a narrow bridge and the oncoming cage driver has a heart attack or goes to sleep. Not being picky but we weren't there. :calm::calm:

another analogy would be a car reversing at speed from the driveway right in front of you, or pulling out from a giveway/supermarket etc right in front/alongside you. nearly had that several times. luckily enough room to stop, but by the time i was stopped, the positioning meant that, had the taxi not stopped, i would have been a t bone steak.

[Usarka]

From the responses I guess you are all saying that this group of bikes were riding fairly close together in a tight formation where it was un avoidable that they all got involved due to lack of space and time for the back ones to respond to any situation up front.

Thats what I think also.

Thing I learnt from this tragedy is make even more space around me than I do now. (space = time)

BTW : I hope I am never ever put in the head on situation . Getting taken out by a U-turner was enough of a warning for me.

FFS (again). go for a ride (on a closed road) at 200kph. Thats the closing speed of two vehicles at the legal speed limit. pick a marker and hit the brakes and see how long it takes you to stop. i get the feeling you will be surprised.

[Jantar]

The camper van wasn't driving on the wrong side of the road, it suddenly veered across the road, straight into the bikes. If the bikes were in staggered formation at 95kmh, then:

The first bike had no time to even react;
The second bike would have had one second, enough time to react and reach for the brakes, but almost nothing else. Impact speed would still be over 80 kmh;
The third bike would have had 2 seconds, enough time to react and start to brake. Using perfect emergency braking he would have reduced his speed to around 55 kmh;
The 4th bike would have had 3 seconds, enough time to react and to brake. Using perfect emergency braking he would have reduced his speed to around 20 kmh;

Further back bikes would have been able to stop and/or avoid an accident.

[Duc]

FFS (again). go for a ride (on a closed road) at 200kph. Thats the closing speed of two vehicles at the legal speed limit. pick a marker and hit the brakes and see how long it takes you to stop. i get the feeling you will be surprised.

Why do you keep repeating "FFS" at me? I am totally aware of closing speeds and stiopping distances ...and thats the point. How much room do we give ourselves to give ourselves the best chance of stopping or avoiding something.

I have no idea what happened in this accident (or many details to help work it out) but it just made me think how the last two machines got involved. The front two I understand and was not under discussion.

Question : Was speed a (secondary) issue and did it come out in the court case?

I think there was a multiple bike pile up involving a MC gang some time back. They are a group of riders who I often see riding close in tight following formations. Nothing would surprise me in their case.

[Usarka]

Why do you keep repeating "FFS" at me? I am totally aware of closing speeds and stiopping distances ...and thats the point. How much room do we give ourselves to give ourselves the best chance of stopping or avoiding something. .

three reasons - firstly because the answer is simple, head on collisions are very hard to avoid. secondly because a father and daughter died and their mates got injured and had to attend to the scene etc. your implying they should have been riding better and avoided it when there is no evidence to suggest that is the case. thirdly you're not listening to the answers your getting.

any good at maths?

a) what is the stopping distance when you are travelling at 200kph (the closing speed of two vehicles on the open road)?

b) what distance are you from the bike in front when you are following using the 2 second rule at 100kph?

c) if a campervan crosses the centerline immediately in front of the bike in front of you, have you got enough room to stop? (hint, is b larger than a?)

[Paul in NZ]

Now heres a funny thing....

Quite by chance and independently - on a flying visit to the south isaland I've recently met people from both sides of this incident and learnt how it went from both sides.

Many more than 4 bikes were involved and if ever the words 'accident' 'tradgedy' and 'remorse' applied to a situation then it is this one.

Sometimes - very nice people end up in the most terrible of circumstances and while its hard, this is a time of compassion, sadness and ultimately forgiveness..... So so sad....

[ducatijim]

Good on you Paul, there has been too much conjecture/too little knowledge.

Lets hope none of us have to experience EITHER side of a shocking event like this in our lifetime.

[steveb64]

Dude, you can learn how much you want. The reality is that if a car/camper van that is coming in the other direction suddenly veers toward you at speed while you happily are riding minding your own business you are history. (The driver admitted fault, she admitted that she got the wheels off the tarseal and on to the gravel on the l/h side, then she over corrected and got on to the wrong side smashing in to the bikes).

A very sad situation. For the riders, their families, but also for the driver who made a mistake that killed 4 riders. As far as I can tell she is a normal girl who phucked up badly with this tragic result.

But to try to say that the riders should have been expecting something like this and been prepared.

IMO - the really sad thing is - she had probably pulled over to the left to leave more room for the bikes coming the other way - especially as she was driving a fairly wide camper van, on a reasonably narrow stretch of road.




Now heres a funny thing....

Quite by chance and independently - on a flying visit to the south isaland I've recently met people from both sides of this incident and learnt how it went from both sides.

Many more than 4 bikes were involved and if ever the words 'accident' 'tradgedy' and 'remorse' applied to a situation then it is this one.

Sometimes - very nice people end up in the most terrible of circumstances and while its hard, this is a time of compassion, sadness and ultimately forgiveness..... So so sad....

Which makes me think my scenario above even more likely - large group/numbers of bikes oncoming - possibly passing within the group - tourist in camper moves over too far - and .....

A VERY sad situation for all involved.

[candor]

The 2 second rule doesn't apply for head on avoidance - you'd need to stay off the road altogether not to breach. Or I guess if you're worried about the guy in front being challenged with NO warning you could go to 4 seconds and annoy everyone behind! The main thing to learn here imo is the at fault party should have been more awake.

From drive and stay alive

If you are on a dry, clear road and you reach the same fixed point before you have said the 'two' then you are too close and need to drop further back, to create the essential minimum of a two-second gap. And if you prefer three seconds, rather than two, that's okay.

If you are on a wet road then you need to have at least a four-second gap.

And if it's icy or you are driving on compacted snow or somewhere you know that something slippery (such as diesel fuel) has been spilled, then it is wise to create at least a ten-second gap. Yes, it will look like a huge gap, but who cares? Your life, or even your vehicle merely being damaged, are worth more than the opinions of those who don't understand your own greater knowledge of safety

[Duc]

I think I will give up riding. Seems that there was nothing to learn and no matter how far or large the space is...there is no avoiding a head on according to some opinions here.

@Usarka : I never implied the following riders could have been riding better/slower/safer etc. Not my call and I said we do not know those details anyway. My question was "can I ride better/safer by learning from this because I did not understand how it happened to the following riders"

Why do we ride if it is so inevitable and unavoidable - now seems irresponsible to me for my family and friends sake?

[jrandom]

I think I will give up riding.

Toodles then!

:sunny:

[R6_kid]

I think I will give up riding. Seems that there was nothing to learn and no matter how far or large the space is...there is no avoiding a head on according to some opinions here.

...

Why do we ride if it is so inevitable and unavoidable - now seems irresponsible to me for my family and friends sake?

You sound like a little moaning bitch.

If you are walking down the road and someone throws something at you unexpectedly I think it would hit you... question is how often does this happen?

The same thing applies to this situation. The first guy had no time to respond, and his friend behind him, even at say 20m back wouldnt have had much chance to avoid the oncoming van. Remember we are dealing with a moving object head out of a curve trying to correct itself back on course.

It would be my guess that the final two bikes would possibly have tried to avoid the accident rather than stopping completely. If a vehicle is coming towards you going off to one side, your survival reaction is to go the opposite, if the other vehicle was trying to change direction at the time and you were unaware then you just put yourself in it's direction of travel. Just like when you walk up to someone and both go the same way to avoid each other, expect that we do it at 2kmh and usually stop first. Not at a total speed of say 160kmh, with lots of momentum and fuck all room to stop or maneuver.

Biking is a risk, and this could have just as easily been four people in a car being killed. If being on the road scares you so much then perhaps it is better you throw in the towel all together and buy a teleporter.

[Duc]

So many in this Forum can't discuss anything serious without insulting someone.

20 metres back ! Good luck. What gang do you ride with?

[Ixion]

Gangs ride tighter than 20mtr. Close stagger in town, front of your front wheel level with the rear of your wheelman's rear wheel (but offset cos it's a stagger). Highway, loose stagger ,one bike length between (complicated bits, maybe more, take your lead from the Ride Captain or Pack Leader). And you better not fuck up. You really had better not fuck up!

[sunhuntin]

Biking is a risk, and this could have just as easily been four people in a car being killed. If being on the road scares you so much then perhaps it is better you throw in the towel all together and buy a teleporter.

or wrap yourself in cotton wool...

[avrflr]

I think I will give up riding. Seems that there was nothing to learn and no matter how far or large the space is...there is no avoiding a head on according to some opinions here.

@Usarka : I never implied the following riders could have been riding better/slower/safer etc. Not my call and I said we do not know those details anyway. My question was "can I ride better/safer by learning from this because I did not understand how it happened to the following riders"

Why do we ride if it is so inevitable and unavoidable - now seems irresponsible to me for my family and friends sake?

There's a long thread by Katman where he says, amongst other things, that motorcycling is no more inherently dangerous than other forms of transport and that, due to his great skill and exceptional judgement, he is extremely unlikely to crash.

Katman is a troll, but we are all guilty of this kind of hubris to some degree. Duc, you want to believe you won't be taken out by an oncoming vehicle because you leave such a large following distance. A large following distance is a good idea, but the only 100% safe following distance is from the vehicle in front all the way to the back of your gargre.

We put ourselves in a vulnerable position by riding a bike on the road. We put our lives in the hands of thousands of strangers, many of whom aren't worthy of that trust. Chances are, one day you will find yourself in a situation on the road where no amount of skill, caution or good judgment will save you.

We gamble with our own lives and the payoff is the enjoyment motorcycling brings us. We should make an honest assessment of the risk even if that is less comforting than blind faith.

As for having children ride pillion, I personally don't think it's worth gambling. Just my opinion.

[Duc]

I concur with all you say.

I will continue to give myself the best chance possible by riding to the conditions as I see them at the time. I am happiest riding solo in my own rythm and space anyway but this accident really made me think about group riding and possible consequences.

Wonder what would have happened if it had of been four cars in the same situation?


Ride safe everyone.

As I type this - another biker down on the news - @ Maungatarata (Police Car involved) !!!!!!!

[MaxB]

Don't give up biking, just accept that there are risks you can do very little about.

As for leaving the correct stopping distance, great in theory but since you are in Auckland you would know that continually dropping back to maintain the gap up here is just an invite for dumbfucks to pull out on you. So you have to compromise to stay in one peice.

[Duc]

I am not giving up biking.

(I was making a point at the time because I felt some responders were overly fatalistic)

[Paul in NZ]

This accident had stuff all to do with following distances and a lot to do with circumstance and just plain bad luck - the chances of ALL the factors coming together again in one spot are not worth worrying about.

You cannot manage some circumstances - despite our best efforts.

[Duc]

......Bingo.