Newbie downshifting question

[bugbug]

Hi everyone, Ive got a newbie downshifting question for you....Whenever Im slowing down for a red light, I usually apply the front and rear breaks and pull in the clutch and ,in rapid succession, downshift to first gear and glide until I come to a stop. Is this the right way to come to a stop? Is it bad for the clutch/gears? Should I use the engine breaking capacity of my bike to slow down? Should I instead slow down a bit and downshift one gear then slow down a little more then downshift again, etc until I stop? Cheers!

[Sully60]

It doesn't matter because motorcycles use a contstant mesh sequential gearbox, which means all the gears spin all the time and as you already know you can't change from 5th straight to first like you can in a car.

The main thing to think about is when you start to let the clutch out when still moving that you've blipped the throttle to match the revs and be smooth with the clutch. Either way you've described above will be fine in the applicable situation. The thing to remember if it feels rough it's usually bad.

Hope this helps;)

[fireliv]

I dont think its good that you clutch/go down the gears in one go. Need to use engine breaking more, and should go through all the gears properly.

Good luck

[Ocean1]

Hi everyone, Ive got a newbie downshifting question for you....Whenever Im slowing down for a red light, I usually apply the front and rear breaks and pull in the clutch and ,in rapid succession, downshift to first gear and glide until I come to a stop. Is this the right way to come to a stop? NO Is it bad for the clutch/gears? YES Should I use the engine breaking capacity of my bike to slow down? Maybe Should I instead slow down a bit and downshift one gear then slow down a little more then downshift again, etc until I stop? Cheers!

In short, yes. Stomping down a bunch of gears at a time is bloody hard on the trans', even with the clutch in. You should change down in sequence, once the revs get down to 2000 (ish), ideally matching revs as you do so.
You should be doing this AND paying attention to braking pressure at both ends.

[Katman]

Change down one gear at a time, letting the clutch out after each gear change. Using the inherent engine braking means the bike is still under your control rather than coasting to a stop with the clutch disengaged.

[deanohit]

I normally just change down the gears to second and stop in second, then snick it into 1st ready to take off, coming to a stop in second allows you to be smooth with no jerkiness if you blip the throttle.

[kiwifruit]

practice

practice


you'll soon get a feel for the fathom.
Welcome to the site :)

[Steam]

Stomping down a bunch of gears at a time is bloody hard on the trans', even with the clutch in.

How come? I thought with the clutch in, it's only the gear selector fork moving gears inside the gearbox, with no force being applied to the gears from the engine. How can it be hard on things?

[huck farley]

Keep doing it and you'll find out!!

[klingon]

Hi everyone, Ive got a newbie downshifting question for you....Whenever Im slowing down for a red light, I usually apply the front and rear breaks and pull in the clutch and ,in rapid succession, downshift to first gear and glide until I come to a stop. Is this the right way to come to a stop? Is it bad for the clutch/gears? Should I use the engine breaking capacity of my bike to slow down? Should I instead slow down a bit and downshift one gear then slow down a little more then downshift again, etc until I stop? Cheers!

My answer would be that you should change down one gear at a time and let out the clutch... but for a different reason. For me, I find I have much more control when I do that - it means I'm always in the right gear to change speed, direction, or just change my mind! If the lights change I can take off fast and if I need to do any dodgy manoeuvring the bike is ready to respond.

It's really no harder to let the clutch out with every change - it just becomes a natural thing to do and soon you do it without thinking.

[Usarka]

clutch out for each gear unless your slowing rapidly.

this means you can react if some shit happens.

pees out.

[Ocean1]

How come? I thought with the clutch in, it's only the gear selector fork moving gears inside the gearbox, with no force being applied to the gears from the engine. How can it be hard on things?

There's always some drag through the clutch plates, the gear teeth themselves are always engaged with their mates, but they're connected to the primary or output shafts by the dogs on their sides. They slide sideways on their shafts to engage. Also, the gears themselves have mass, and huge differences in rpm makes for accelerated wear and potential damage.

If, (to take an extreem case) you were to kick it down to 1st at 100k the speed difference between the dogs on one gear and the gates they engage with would be substantial, load on the gear dogs would be very high. Eventually the dogs wear and you start getting mis-shifting, not to mention bits of dog floating around you engine.

Probably the kindest thing you can do for your drivetrain (and engine, tyres and the smoothness of your riding) is to get into the habbit of blipping the throttle on down-shifts so that the gearset coming into effect is accelerated to the speed it'll be doing when you release the clutch. Do it real smooth and on most modern bikes there's no need to use the clutch at all.

With practice you can feel when the speeds match, the shifter needs very little pressure and the shift is smooth with no hesitation.

[erix]

There's always some drag through the clutch plates, the gear teeth themselves are always engaged with their mates, but they're connected to the primary or output shafts by the dogs on their sides. They slide sideways on their shafts to engage. Also, the gears themselves have mass, and huge differences in rpm makes for accelerated wear and potential damage.

If, (to take an extreem case) you were to kick it down to 1st at 100k the speed difference between the dogs on one gear and the gates they engage with would be substantial, load on the gear dogs would be very high. Eventually the dogs wear and you start getting mis-shifting, not to mention bits of dog floating around you engine.

Probably the kindest thing you can do for your drivetrain (and engine, tyres and the smoothness of your riding) is to get into the habbit of blipping the throttle on down-shifts so that the gearset coming into effect is accelerated to the speed it'll be doing when you release the clutch. Do it real smooth and on most modern bikes there's no need to use the clutch at all.

With practice you can feel when the speeds match, the shifter needs very little pressure and the shift is smooth with no hesitation.

Im confused here, down shift without clutch in is ok? really doubt it.

I used to clutch in whenever before I use brake to slow down as I FELT using engine brake wont do much good on engine, but I went even faster when I using clutch too soon, that can be very dangerous and very uncomfortable.

now I purposely try using more engine brake and felt it can be safer as people point out more control I felt by doing this.:niceone:

However, it seems everyones riding style can be very different, and really dont know who has the best riding style. anyway, safety comes first....

[xwhatsit]

Do it real smooth and on most modern bikes there's no need to use the clutch at all.

Yep, a month or so ago my clutch cable very suddenly decided to shred itself to a few strands, and while I was waiting for the new cable to be shipped I got very good at shifting smoothly without the clutch. Shifting up is easy enough; easier to do when you're grabbing a handful, rather than accelerating slowly, but do-able nonetheless. I thought downshifting would be very difficult but all I needed to do was accurately blip the throttle just enough to get the RPM in the right spot, and the bike would practically shift itself. Could even do 1st-Neutral -- who needs no stinking clutch?

Not recommended for long-term use, though :laugh:

With a shitty old Honda gearbox like mine, learning how to keep it happy and row through it up or down quickly and smoothly is something you pick up by necessity. It's funny; I lubed my throttle cable and assembly a long time ago, making it much more smooth and accurate (before it was very stiff and jerky), and strangely my gear shifting instantly became so much smoother and easier. They definitely are connected.

[Duc]

The other thing - stopping by stepping down through the gears under engine braking is good training for how it should be while riding done on the road. This is how you get the feel of the bike and maximise control. You learn the rev range effectively by getting to know the feel of the bike and how it responds in each gear.

[MyGSXF]

Give Andrew @ Roadsafe a call.. http://www.roadsafe.co.nz/

Last I spoke to them, they are heading to Auckland at some stage to run a training weekend up there.. they're ferkin brilliant!!!!! :first:

Jen :rockon:

[Mike748]

In traffic I prefer changing down early with just a little brake pressure ........... the engine note as it catches up n winds down is really addictive.... damn, need to go for a ride now! ........... oh and it helps me with gear selection too.

[fireball]

for me its what ever feels safe at the time....
i have noticed westie drivers are better than those on the shore so i am more relaxed when out west with my gear changes (will stay ion a higher gear for longer when slowing for lights)
while on the shore i drop down through my gearbox using engine breaking making sure im in a lower gear as i reach the lights so if things go bad (they do more often than not) i have enough revs to get me out of there...

its all a feeling and experience thing for me all i can say is practice its more fun that way!

[TOTO]

Hi everyone, Ive got a newbie downshifting question for you....Whenever Im slowing down for a red light, I usually apply the front and rear breaks and pull in the clutch and ,in rapid succession, downshift to first gear and glide until I come to a stop. Is this the right way to come to a stop? Is it bad for the clutch/gears? Should I use the engine breaking capacity of my bike to slow down? Should I instead slow down a bit and downshift one gear then slow down a little more then downshift again, etc until I stop? Cheers!

I actually have a related question. On my New HYOSUNG, when I downshift for the lights and downshift all the way to first, then when I'm at the lights I can not go to Neutral:( , but I noticed that sometimes when I downshift only to second and then pull the clutch and stop then I have some chance of getting to neutral bun not always. any sugestion on how to get newutral on traffic lights ? Is it just for hyosungs or most of you have gone trough this. Help aprechiated coz tired of aqueezing the clutch.:crybaby: Thanks.:baby:

[Ocean1]

I actually have a related question. On my New HYOSUNG, when I downshift for the lights and downshift all the way to first, then when I'm at the lights I can not go to Neutral:( , but I noticed that sometimes when I downshift only to second and then pull the clutch and stop then I have some chance of getting to neutral bun not always. any sugestion on how to get newutral on traffic lights ? Is it just for hyosungs or most of you have gone trough this. Help aprechiated coz tired of aqueezing the clutch.:crybaby: Thanks.:baby:

What happens when you try for neutral from 1st? Does is just not move at all or does it jump right through to 2nd?

[TOTO]

What happens when you try for neutral from 1st? Does is just not move at all or does it jump right through to 2nd?

It Goes straight to second gear ay. This morning I stopped on traffic lights on second, then eased it down to newutral - so it worked, but I had trouble putting into first after that , I had to press down hard 4 times Until I got the first. Is it suppose to be like this or is my bike temperamental ?:confused:

[scracha]

Brake whilst downshifting through gears. Clutch should be pulled in at the last minute to maximise engine braking. Prescribed method is to just snick it down into first when you're nearly at a stop...just before you put your left foot down as your right foot should be covering the rear brake. If you can't get neutral then don't worry about it, just sit in 1st with the clutch in. In heavy traffic, it's preferable to be in gear ready to move off quickly anyway.

Useful tip, especially in wet or uneven surfaces is to come off the front brake and just use the rear when you're down to about 10kmph.

For emergency braking, don't even worry about the gears. Just brake, come to a stop. Look behind you and if there's something coming (and the bike's stalled or not in 1st) drop the bike and run like @#$ck.

Under no circumstances should you STOMP or need to push hard on the gear lever. If you come to a stop in 2nd or 3rd (or 1st for that matter) you might have to let the clutch out slightly or rock the bike back and forth a little to get it to change gear.

[Katman]

I actually have a related question. On my New HYOSUNG, when I downshift for the lights and downshift all the way to first, then when I'm at the lights I can not go to Neutral:( , but I noticed that sometimes when I downshift only to second and then pull the clutch and stop then I have some chance of getting to neutral bun not always. any sugestion on how to get newutral on traffic lights ? Is it just for hyosungs or most of you have gone trough this. Help aprechiated coz tired of aqueezing the clutch.:crybaby: Thanks.:baby:

Check your clutch adjustment. It's possible you have too much freeplay and therefore the clutch is not fully disengaging.

[R1madness]

Do it real smooth and on most modern bikes there's no need to use the clutch at all.



I agree with everything you say except this statement. Its so wrong its not funny. You have no idea how many gearboxes we rebuild every year because someone has read on the net that its ok to change gear without the clutch. It might work for a while but the consequential damage is bloody expensive to fix. It might not show up at first but i bet you a free gearbox rebuild that it will happen.

[TOTO]

Brake whilst downshifting through gears. Clutch should be pulled in at the last minute to maximise engine braking. Prescribed method is to just snick it down into first when you're nearly at a stop...just before you put your left foot down as your right foot should be covering the rear brake. If you can't get neutral then don't worry about it, just sit in 1st with the clutch in. In heavy traffic, it's preferable to be in gear ready to move off quickly anyway.

Useful tip, especially in wet or uneven surfaces is to come off the front brake and just use the rear when you're down to about 10kmph.

For emergency braking, don't even worry about the gears. Just brake, come to a stop. Look behind you and if there's something coming (and the bike's stalled or not in 1st) drop the bike and run like @#$ck.

Under no circumstances should you STOMP or need to push hard on the gear lever. If you come to a stop in 2nd or 3rd (or 1st for that matter) you might have to let the clutch out slightly or rock the bike back and forth a little to get it to change gear.



O cool, didnt know this about 2-3 gear and rocking the bike. useful. thanks :woohoo:

[Ocean1]

It Goes straight to second gear ay. This morning I stopped on traffic lights on second, then eased it down to newutral - so it worked, but I had trouble putting into first after that , I had to press down hard 4 times Until I got the first. Is it suppose to be like this or is my bike temperamental ?:confused:

I see it's new, I'd talk to the dealer, at least to register a query in case it's a fault.

It should get a bit smoother, but if you're still having trouble after a couple of thousand K I'd get them to check it.

[Ocean1]

I agree with everything you say except this statement. Its so wrong its not funny. You have no idea how many gearboxes we rebuild every year because someone has read on the net that its ok to change gear without the clutch. It might work for a while but the consequential damage is bloody expensive to fix. It might not show up at first but i bet you a free gearbox rebuild that it will happen.

A broad generalisation to be sure.

My background is mostly dirt bikes, and I have had occasion to strip several gearboxes over the years. But any damage has been to bearings, shafts or shifter drums/followers, the only box on which I found serious wear or damage to dogs was on a bike I'd just bought.

Off road I do in fact use the clutch at least half the time, depending mostly on traction requirements. Perhaps I've been lucky, but I suspect it's more to do with learning how to match revs accurately and consistently.

The Buell's box feels less positive, and there's very little backlash in the drivetrain so it's difficult to get right. I rarely shift that without the clutch, and I think there's less reason to do so on the road.

[Leaf]

It Goes straight to second gear ay. This morning I stopped on traffic lights on second, then eased it down to newutral - so it worked, but I had trouble putting into first after that , I had to press down hard 4 times Until I got the first. Is it suppose to be like this or is my bike temperamental ?:confused:

I had similar problems when i first got my GTR. As i added more km's it has definantly got easier to find neutral (and also easier to skip neutral when shifting from 1st to 2nd...an embarassing pain in the ass initially!). However a good tip is to drop to first while still moving then quickly tap up to neutral before the bike has come to a complete stop. Its much easier to find N when the bike is still rolling a bit.

[kevfromcoro]

Change down one gear at a time, letting the clutch out after each gear change. Using the inherent engine braking means the bike is still under your control rather than coasting to a stop with the clutch disengaged.

As he said..use your gears. you know where you are going ..if you are coming to a roundabout or have to slow down ..start slowing down by downshifting

[TOTO]

As he said..use your gears. you know where you are going ..if you are coming to a roundabout or have to slow down ..start slowing down by downshifting

Thanks , kevfromcoro. how do you find neutral on the trafic lights ?

[TOTO]

I had similar problems when i first got my GTR. As i added more km's it has definantly got easier to find neutral (and also easier to skip neutral when shifting from 1st to 2nd...an embarassing pain in the ass initially!). However a good tip is to drop to first while still moving then quickly tap up to neutral before the bike has come to a complete stop. Its much easier to find N when the bike is still rolling a bit.

Yes , well thats what the guy at the workshop said today - I had it services for first time (1000k) so I'll see if it gets better with time, I guess in the mean time I'll keep trying. :niceone:

[klingon]

Under no circumstances should you STOMP or need to push hard on the gear lever. If you come to a stop in 2nd or 3rd (or 1st for that matter) you might have to let the clutch out slightly or rock the bike back and forth a little to get it to change gear.

TOTO, sometimes I also have trouble changing from neutral to first or first to neutral when at a standstill. I recommend the rock-the-bike technique, or let the clutch out very slightly until the gears just start engaging (without letting go of the brake). Then try for neutral again.

It sounds a bit of a hassle but either your bike will loosen up with age or you'll just get used to its little quirks and you'll do it all without thinking. (Then you ride a different bike and have to get used to a whole new set of quirks!)

[babyblade250rr]

If your bike is new or has extremely low k's the gear box prolly hasnt had time to wear in, I remember when i first rode the R6 off the show room floor the gearbox was madness, especially after comming off a fully worn in cbr

[breakaway]

I think that different boxes behave deifferently. When I had my RG, I could be in neutral, and click down for first, only to have it not engage. I had to move the bike a bit, and then slam it down, and it'd work. But with the CBR that's not a problem, just slam it down and it locks in with a solid tight CLICK.

[enigma51]

Well there is the guy called (hmmm lets call him bob) and he told me that as you come to the corner you shift all the way in to first let go of the clucth and as the rear wheel locks up slightly touch the rear brake getting the bike side ways then feather the clucth to maintain a sideways "drift" all the way to the apex ooooo yes only do this on the racetrack

For the road if you need to use the gears to slow down for a red light slow down you going to fast in the first case

[ambler]

If you come to a stop in 2nd or 3rd (or 1st for that matter) you might have to let the clutch out slightly or rock the bike back and forth a little to get it to change gear.Sometimes you can let the clutch out until it engages just a little, and this will be enough to let you change gear without needing to physically 'rock' the bike.

[FilthyLuka]

Well there is the guy called (hmmm lets call him bob) and he told me that as you come to the corner you shift all the way in to first let go of the clucth

over revving anybody?

dude, way not healthy

sounds like something the kalamari kid would say...

[xwhatsit]

I think that different boxes behave deifferently. When I had my RG, I could be in neutral, and click down for first, only to have it not engage. I had to move the bike a bit, and then slam it down, and it'd work. But with the CBR that's not a problem, just slam it down and it locks in with a solid tight CLICK.

Probably the difference between Suki and Hondarr gearbox philosophies there. Everybody waffles on about the silky smooth Suzook gear change. I, being educated in Ancient Hondas 101, found them to lack feedback and feel very remote compared to the obvious `clunk' of the bikes I ride. Never in any doubt with an old Honda gearbox -- and anybody within 100 metres is never in any doubt either :lol:

Felt very at home on an old BMW twin in that regard :laugh:

[Daffyd]

I agree with everything you say except this statement. Its so wrong its not funny. You have no idea how many gearboxes we rebuild every year because someone has read on the net that its ok to change gear without the clutch. It might work for a while but the consequential damage is bloody expensive to fix. It might not show up at first but i bet you a free gearbox rebuild that it will happen.

I tried clutchless upchanges for a while but it started jumping out of gear so I gave it up. Figured it wasn't going into gear properly.

[Ocean1]

Probably Never in any doubt with an old Honda gearbox -- and anybody within 100 metres is never in any doubt either :lol:

Funny you should say that, the best boxes I ever knew were the XL Hondas. Very positive, (IE no mis-shifts or false neutrals) and slicker'n snot. Although I did manage to break a couple.

[Big Dog]

Have not read the whole thread but I get asked this a lot.

According to several books and several mechanics...and shit they all agreed on something...

Upshifting on smaller cc gearboxes can wreck the dogs (the bits that keep it in gear once selected), faster if done incorrectly.
Downshifting on all gearboxes risks bending the selector or wearing the dogs.

HOWEVER - Everybody should do this often enough that they feel comfortable to do so if the clutch experiences catastrophic failure in the engaged position so you can ride home.

Up shifting: Roll off, shift as you pass through the spot (between 500 and 1500 depending on gearing) where you can change with the least transmision line whip.

Down shifting is the exact opposite except you have more leverage. Hence the greater probablility of bent selectors.

One of my books, forget which one advises to try pre loading the shifter and seeing where it shifts as you roll on for a down shift. It also advises this can be exensive if you have a small cc bike or a cheap chain and you do it all the time, because there will almost certainly be some recoil (exception being two strokes, just for the pedants around hear).
Now repeat but do the shift at 2-300 rpm higher.

Going up has a much wider range of acceptable speeds than down. Once you master down up will become habit, but put down away for that rainy day in the future unless you are a racer and need that response time or can otherwise afford to replace your transmision on a regular basis.

[Big Dog]

I tried clutchless upchanges for a while but it started jumping out of gear so I gave it up. Figured it wasn't going into gear properly.

If we discount worn dogs as a cause (eg it does not happen to anyone else you let ride your bike), then it is most likely that you are not positive enought in your action or you are doing it 500 rpm too high or too low.

[xwhatsit]

Funny you should say that, the best boxes I ever knew were the XL Hondas. Very positive, (IE no mis-shifts or false neutrals) and slicker'n snot. Although I did manage to break a couple.

Well yeah, same gearbox in my bike. XL/XR250 pre-RFVC. I've had maybe one false neutral ever (funnily enough while clutchless upshifting), and one or two mis-shifts due to very slack chain after 400km ride and getting towards end of oil-change period. Still really slams and clunks into gear, though -- although that's probably what you mean by `very positive' :laugh:

When mine blows up (it will eventually, I'll be keeping this bike until I give up biking), in will go the 6-speed XR gear cluster. Got a couple of spare 5-speed clusters.

Big Dog, what do you mean about 500-1500 rpm? If the clutch is left engaged, how is the bike only doing 500-1500rpm when you're about to upshift (assuming we're not talking about a big British single)?

[2wheeldrifter]

Downshift dude.... if your bike sounds cool it's a plus!:yes:

[Ocean1]

Well yeah, same gearbox in my bike. XL/XR250 pre-RFVC. I've had maybe one false neutral ever (funnily enough while clutchless upshifting), and one or two mis-shifts due to very slack chain after 400km ride and getting towards end of oil-change period. Still really slams and clunks into gear, though -- although that's probably what you mean by `very positive' :laugh:

Never had a 250, just XL350s. Never felt they were clunky or harsh. Guess the thing I find with a lot of bikes is a lack of feel. I think that happens when a gearset tends to jump out, they increase the pressure on the drum detent. It works, but the detent is all you can feel, rather than the movement of the selector and the gears.

The XL box was reliable on the 250s, but the bigger top end on the 350s pushed the dogs on 3rd/4th hard. Add a few extra HP and treat it like an MX bike and you started to get breakages after a while.

Re six speed: waste of time unless the engine's very very optomised for track racing. I used to wish my 350s were 4 speed, and in fact the last one I geared so high it effectively was one.

[Big Dog]

Big Dog, what do you mean about 500-1500 rpm? If the clutch is left engaged, how is the bike only doing 500-1500rpm when you're about to upshift (assuming we're not talking about a big British single)?
Variance over the existing engine speed.

[caseye]

Shifting up is easily accomplished without the clutch, as has been said matching revs to shift/gear does it all effortlessly, changing down and using the clutch for rach gear is recommended, again it's been said here, itgives you more control, doesn't strain your gearbag and allows instant response for tricky situations by allowing you to be in the required dear to accelerate away quickly without having to search for it. Remember treat all other road users as idiots and always be ready to accelerate away and out of trouble, braking invariably JUST puts you right amongst all the shiet thats about to go down.