Integrating into a foreign society

[Kickaha]

Just reading the local paper today how the QE2 swimming pool has provided a screened off area so Islamic women may swim with out being looked up by men other than their husbands

Lately in the courts there has been argument regarding the wearing of the burqa as the women have stated due to their beliefs they would be shamed if they were to expose their faces

If you travel to live in a country other than your own where the beliefs and customs are not the same as your own how far should that society go to accomodate you,and should they make exception to the rules based on your religion and cultural differences in the society from where you came

I'm not saying thats what they're doing in the above examples but you get the idea as courts have allowed witnesses to give evidence before from behind screens

Does our society not allow these people to integrate themselves as well as they could because of the differences,or do these people choose not to try for the same reasons,will it be left to the children/grandchildren to change there ways as they grow up in a different homeland and culture than their parents did?




If I moved to foreign shores(ie North Island) and lived in the Wellington area would I be required to play pool and get pissed on thursday nights at roqm in order to fully accepted as a member of society or would the different ethnic background make that impossible

If I moved further north and wanted to participate in the many rides that happen would I have to take my turn in their weird rituals and take my turn as the weekly sacrifice (BIN) before being allowed full membership of their society

[James Deuce]

Get yer arse up to Wellington and stop whinging about intangibles. The differences are what make moving fun.

[merv]

Its a bit much to expect the greater society to change to meet requirements of interlopers.

When I was in the South Island I had to get used to the locals and I couldn't find any decent doughnuts in the 70's, I had to eat what the bakeries cooked.

[Mongoose]

Its a bit much to expect the greater society to change to meet requirements of interlopers.

When I was in the South Island I had to get used to the locals and I couldn't find any decent doughnuts in the 70's, I had to eat what the bakeries cooked.

Bloody hell, never realised that life was so tough way back in the seventies, that must have been diabolical.Are you emotionaly scarred, do you need therapy or are you well and truely over it? :moon:

[Hitcher]

There's a lot of crap talked about immigrants not integrating. First generation immigrants, particularly when they arrive in any country in comparatively large numbers generally tend to keep to themselves. This has been the case for the past couple of hundred years. However their children generally fit right in.

[Mongoose]

There's a lot of crap talked about immigrants not integrating. First generation immigrants, particularly when they arrive in any country in comparatively large numbers generally tend to keep to themselves. This has been the case for the past couple of hundred years. However their children generally fit right in.


Dead right Mr Hitcher, that applies to any people travelling to a new country, be why you can go to the Kiwi Bar in China for example.

[Warren]

If you travel to live in a country other than your own where the beliefs and customs are not the same as your own how far should that society go to accomodate you,and should they make exception to the rules based on your religion and cultural differences in the society from where you came


I believe the early foreigner's (pakeha) actually tried to force the natives (Maori) to adopt their culture.

[James Deuce]

There's a lot of crap talked about immigrants not integrating. First generation immigrants, particularly when they arrive in any country in comparatively large numbers generally tend to keep to themselves. This has been the case for the past couple of hundred years. However their children generally fit right in.

Exactly

If I may:

Immigrants are fundamental to the growth and development of any society, however unpalatable that is to the "established order". They bring new ideas, challenge exisiting attitudes, often bring bad juju, but always provide the necessary catalyst for change. Immigrants can come from an internal migration, or an external influx. Either way a society that doesn't allow immigration to happen will find itself wondering why it is sliding down the standards of living index, or unable to trade their currency on financial markets, within a generation.

Nicholas Lemann wrote a marvelous book, The Promised Land: The Great Black Migration and How It Changed America, on the internal migration patterns of African Americans in the US, from the South to the North and back to the South again. Richard Florida examines the effect immigration has on the creative elements of a society in his book, "The Rise of the Creative Class". Florida's work is a bit intellectual, but Lemann's book reads like a modern version of Roots. Both books will help anyone who has an interest in this stuff understand New Zealand really well, by providing a spin on the traditional viewpoint we use to examine ourselves and how our society is changing.

Get used to change because it's the only guaranteed thing in life, unlike the crap they tell you about death and taxes.

[James Deuce]

I believe the early foreigner's (pakeha) actually tried to force the natives (Maori) to adopt their culture.

They didn't actually. US whalers and British immigrants didn't actually think like that at all. Missionaries are a different story altogether, and their motivation was somewhat different from either of the aforementioned groups.

US Whalers just wanted sex and somewhere to get pissed, while the first Brits were after the capacity to determine their own destiny independent of the British class structure. The original plan was to get along. Busby and the NZ Company had different plans however.

[750Y]

They didn't actually..
no, it was actually the 3 million that followed within the next 150 years, lol.

[Kickaha]

There's a lot of crap talked about immigrants not integrating. First generation immigrants, particularly when they arrive in any country in comparatively large numbers generally tend to keep to themselves. This has been the case for the past couple of hundred years. However their children generally fit right in.

Are you talking children that immigrate with the parents or born in a new country that the parents chose to move to?

I would suspect the reason their children fit right in as they are bought up and schooled within a different culture than their parents,their habits and culture are less ingrained in them and are perhaps less resistant to change and new experience

[Kickaha]

When I was in the South Island I had to get used to the locals and I couldn't find any decent doughnuts in the 70's, I had to eat what the bakeries cooked.


I'm suprised you managed to make it out alive :bleh:

[James Deuce]

Are you talking children that immigrate with the parents or born in a new country that the parents chose to move to?

I would suspect the reason their children fit right in as they are bought up and schooled within a different culture than their parents,their habits and culture are less ingrained in them and are perhaps less resistant to change and new experience

The children that come with the parents and the ones born in the "new country" do equally as well at integrating. Bear in mind that the people who emigrate from everything they know are very special to even consider that process, and despite appearances (ghettos, slums, ethinic neighbourhoods) actually integrate themselves into their new society more than you would expect at first glance.

[Warren]

Its a bit much to expect the greater society to change to meet requirements of interlopers.

When I was in the South Island I had to get used to the locals and I couldn't find any decent doughnuts in the 70's, I had to eat what the bakeries cooked.

If you go to southland (Invercargill, Bluff etc) you may need to roll your rrrrr's, they have invented a new language down there.

I dropped my doughnut on my shirrrt.

[parsley]

I'm a nimmigrant, but I feel like I'm being integrated. After 18 months in this country I've finally figured out how to order coffee!

[Artifice]

yes you say, i would like a coffee. i dont want mocha-milky- frothy foregin stuff, what i want is coffee. but the bastards never ever advertise percolator coffee. its all i want :whimper: not sugar, not milk not froth :giggle: just caffiene inna cup. :wahoo: :wahoo:
oh yeah as to integrating, sometime the grandkids of the original emigre's go overboard with the lost culture trying to be what they think they have lost... of course this is usually from an out of context point of view.

[カワサキキド]

I have and want to again(after uni, need for the visas) live in a forein society
and I say when in Rome...
The locals are way more fun to hang out with :drinknsin

[カワサキキド]

yes you say, i would like a coffee. i dont want mocha-milky- frothy foregin stuff, what i want is coffee. but the bastards never ever advertise percolator coffee. its all i want :whimper: not sugar, not milk not froth :giggle: just caffiene inna cup. :wahoo: :wahoo:

Simple you just order a long... esspresso...black...straight...double.. ah f#ck it I'll just have water.

[scumdog]

If you go to southland (Invercargill, Bluff etc) you may need to roll your rrrrr's, they have invented a new language down there.

I dropped my doughnut on my shirrrt.

No, no, it's "I drrropped my doughnut (not in the 70's obviously) on my shirrrt"

"Worrrse than that, it was my favourrrite rrred and yellerrr motorrrcycle rrrriding one I got frrrom my motherrr forrr Chrrristmas!!!" :pinch:

[Bob]

No, no, it's "I drrropped my doughnut (not in the 70's obviously) on my shirrrt"

"Worrrse than that, it was my favourrrite rrred and yellerrr motorrrcycle rrrriding one I got frrrom my motherrr forrr Chrrristmas!!!" :pinch:

Funny how every society has something like this. In the US, it is the deep south (Cue banjo playing and webbed-footed blind kids etc). Here in the UK, we have the Forest of Dean.

The FoD is truly beautiful country... but it is all a bit "In-Bred". The FoD is in Gloucestershire (where my wife comes from originally) - as a result, whenever we visit and I see the Forest mentioned in local papers, I normally start humming the theme from 'Deliverance' or Duelling Banjoes... and get told off!

Of course, my best one was when I saw this headline on the cover of the Gloucestershire Echo:

"JOBS CRISIS IN THE FOREST OF DEAN"

I instantly said "What's that then? Had to offer one to a non-relative?"

I had to duck fast... :bleh:

[What?]

...and I say when in Rome...
The locals are way more fun to hang out with :drinknsin
Zackly. I'm with Winston: Fit in or fuck off.
Or, the longer version, "Yes, come to NZ, but do not expect that we will change our customs and laws to suit you, after all, would your government return the compliment?"

[MikeL]

a society that doesn't allow immigration to happen will find itself wondering why it is sliding down the standards of living index, or unable to trade their currency on financial markets, within a generation.
.

If economic considerations are paramount, why do we put any limits at all on immigration? Open the floodgates...

Living standards are not just measured by GDP, per capita income and the % of people with cellphones and Sky TV.

The whole debate about immigration, I believe, comes down to the question "Who's country is it anyway?" That is, cultural identity.

Unfortunately, as we've seen before on this forum, the response to such questions is usually an accusation of racism...

I still think it's a legitimate question that needs to be debated.

[jrandom]

immigration... comes down to the question "Who's country is it anyway?"

But, if English was their first language, it would probably come down to the question "Whose country is it anyway?"

(runs and hides)

[White trash]

and lived in the Wellington area would I be required to play pool and get pissed on thursday nights at roqm in order to fully accepted as a member of society or would the different ethnic background make that impossible



Nothing's impossible. You'll just have to try real hard. :2thumbsup

[vifferman]

If you go to southland (Invercargill, Bluff etc) you may need to roll your rrrrr's, they have invented a new language down there.

I dropped my doughnut on my shirrrt.If you listen really carefully to a Southerner, they don't really roll their Rs at all. What they do in fact, which makes their speech sound so weird, is put the R earlier in the word, and/or otherwise emphasize the R. It's kind of a bastardisation of the original Scottish rrrrolling of the R.
So "shirt" is pronounced "shrirt", "Southerner" sounds more like "Southrerner", "word" becomes more like "wrord". Very wreird...:crazy:

Living standards are not just measured by GDP, per capita income and the % of people with cellphones and Sky TV.Indeed. I think the whole nonsense about our country "needing a higher population to get the benefits this brings" is bogus. It means that we lose many of the things that gives NZ its character, and instead get population clustered around the main centres, increased crime, traffic problems, pollution, infrastructure not keeping up with rapid growth, people possible becoming more insular, etc etc.
Apart from cultural diversity (is this really globalisation? loss of the Kiwi persona?) what tangible benefits are there? Is it so bad NZ being a sleepy backwater, with low crime, friendly people, etc.? I don't think you could argue that NZ is backward, as we have been 'early adopters' of many of the trappings of modernity, like EFTPOS, smart cards, etc. Unfortunately, we also used to have one of the highest standards of educationin the world, lowest crime rates, lowest unemployment rates, etc. Not any more. And our rural lifestyle is disappearing, our pristine tourist spots are being subdivided and developed, our native species are under more threat of extinction than ever before, and our "clean green" image is just that - an image, not a reality, as we don't even effectively recycle stuff and can't even manage a decent sewerage system in parts of Auckland.

Sad, innit? :disapint:
[/rant mode]

[Blakamin]

I fitted right in.... they had VB when I got here :apint: :whistle:

[Joni]

I fitted right in.... they had VB when I got here :apint: :whistle:

I didn't do that badly either... wherever people ride, Im happy!!! Now I just need a Black Label beer from SA!!
:Punk:

[James Deuce]

If economic considerations are paramount, why do we put any limits at all on immigration? Open the floodgates...

Living standards are not just measured by GDP, per capita income and the % of people with cellphones and Sky TV.

The whole debate about immigration, I believe, comes down to the question "Who's country is it anyway?" That is, cultural identity.

Unfortunately, as we've seen before on this forum, the response to such questions is usually an accusation of racism...

I still think it's a legitimate question that needs to be debated.

Absolutely. I'm not sure whether you and Firestormer (see above) are just testing me out or summit, by I think it is more indicative of a nation's culture than any discussion of immigration sparks a defensive comment about racism, and a cycle of backpedalling.

Immigration internal or external (interesting how internal migration was ignored, because it is just as important at shaping a culture as external immigrants) has always been the shaping force of humanity. Globablisation has existed in one form or another for at least 2500 years, thinking mainly of the mediterranean concept of the world and trade.

Immigration without serious debate about the type of society you are trying to create, at city, and national levels creates issues that take a generation or two to sort out.

I do however think that arguing against immigration because of race or religion, or seeming inability to integrate is faintly offensive, when you consider we are all immigrants or descended from people who belonged to different waves of migration. Immigration happens, the immigrants change, but so does the society that accepts them. Ignorant comments about "adopt our culture or fuck off", ignore the fact that immigratants provide contacts to their culture of origina that may take a couple of generations to mature, bu nonetheless establish lines of communication between societies that may not have considered each other natural parties.

I'm not referring to GDP when I discuss this point. I'm talking about creating and maintaining a society and culture that is a creative and challenging place to live, where people want to be. Individual satisfaction is more important than raw trade figures in the health of a society, whether that society has a collective or individualist mindset. Without migrants a country can easily become inward looking and convinced of the superiority of "their" own culture.

New Zealanders struggle to even accept that they have a unique culture.

[Youngjim]

What to wear when you go for your next photo driving licence
(hope I have managed to attach the pic !!!)

[James Deuce]

What to wear when you go for your next photo driving licence
(hope I have managed to attach the pic !!!)
Brilliant! :)

I'll take two.

[MikeL]

But, if English was their first language, it would probably come down to the question "Whose country is it anyway?"

(runs and hides)

:Oops:

How the hell did that happen?

Put it down to end-of-term tiredness or just reading too many student essays...

Oh, the shame...

[vifferman]

I'm not sure whether you and Firestormer (see below) are just testing me out or summit...No.
I just don't buy into the whole "if only we had a higher population things would be so much better (economically)" over-simplistic load of bollix.
It has little to do with my views on immigration, but I must admit I'm more than a bit alarmed that we seem to have made it too easy for various people who see NZ as an easy target for various scams, crimes, etc. to get in and make the country worse, not better. I guess most immigrants don't fall into the 'scumbag' category, but we do have some rules and criteria that were put in place for the right reasons but which are easy to take advantage of.
F'rinstance: apparently, if you live here for two years or more, your kids get free education. Fair enough, but not if it means that some people are coming to live here so their kids can get a cheap education to tertiary level, perhaps keeping some NZ-born person out of a course that has restricted numbers, then having achieved a qualification at the taxpayers' expense, they fuck off back home again. Sure, we get some of their money, some of their culture rubs off, but where's the real benefit to us who live here? Is it more of a cost than a benefit?
You could argue that it's not much different to those NZ students who get a tertiary qualification and piss off overseas to live, because they don't earn enough here, but we've always been a nomadic culture. (And the whole business of student loans etc. etc. is a whole different bucket'o'worms).

On the other side of the coin, there are people who come here who meet all the criteria for coming here to live, then find out after they've landed that they can't get a job, because English isn't their first language, or their qualifications aren't transferrable, or whatever. I met a distressed and disillusioned taxi driver one day, who was from the former Yugoslavia. They met all the criteria, and he'd mistakenly thought this meant he could work here (non-one had disavowed him of this notion before he came). His wife (a paediatric surgeon) was unable to get work, as her qualifications weren't recognised here, and he was unable to find suitable work for himself (he was a lawyer). Fair enough, as the laws of the two countries aren't identical, and we need to be sure medical personnel are good enough. But (BUT!) she was able to practice in Australia. If it had been made clear to them how things worked here before they'd emigrated, they would've changed destinations. The worst thing - which upset him the most - is that they'd gone from being respected people of some standing, to being regarded as dole-bludgers and bottom-dwelling pond scum, through no desire of their own to do anything but work, be part of NZ society, all the good things. Sure, it was ultimately their responsibility to check their facts carefully before embarking on such a life-changing journey, but it's still sad.

What about refugees? I think it's very good that we are compassionate and willing to help out in this regard. Does it then make us a target of clever and unscrupulous people who know how to take advantage of our 'softness'?

I dunno. I think our hospitable and welcoming character is better than saying "We're the bestest, freeeest (enough E's?) country in the world, but you can't come in unless you're very very special." I just hope the fact we're 'nice' doesn't make us an easy target for those who are devious, dishonest and desparate enough to take advantage of the seemingly gaping loopholes in our immigration policy, and that not too many scumbags come surfing in on the wave of immigrants. If we could at least tighten things up in the driving license department, I'd feel a bit happier.

[Marmoot]

for those who talk about muslim-women, please note that cultural issues should be totally separate to religion issues.

For cultural issues, it is possible to talk about assimmilation without actually violating human rights. But religion issues I think is much more sensitive than that because it is very personal between someone and his/her Creator.

Culture is how you were brought up, but religion is what you believe and there is nobody that should try to change that.

[James Deuce]

No.
I just don't buy into the whole "if only we had a higher population things would be so much better (economically)" over-simplistic load of bollix.

:Oi: Just checking - when did I say that? ;) If I implied that then I wasn;t eant to, however NZ still hasn't hit a population level that will sustain anything other than a primary produce economy. Real economic growth comes from trading in money, not primary produce or commodities.

However real cultural growth comes from responding to challenge and change with a plan and a will to do so.

[Ms Piggy]

Does our society not allow these people to integrate themselves as well as they could because of the differences,or do these people choose not to try for the same reasons,will it be left to the children/grandchildren to change there ways as they grow up in a different homeland and culture than their parents did?

I think it kinda goes both ways. I haven't read any of the posts beyond pg.1 so forgive me if I'm repeating stuff already spoken.

I think part of globalisation is that most societies are now multi-cultural and I think part of being in another culture is acknowledging that in New Zealand we may do things differently from their country of origin. However, I don't believe that it means that either party is right or wrong.

My Uni mates and I have come up with a new catch phrase to stem to catch ourselves when we want to judge or criticise others: "Well thats different from the way I do things." It's not right or wrong, just different and different isn't bad either.

I don't think there is anything wrong with people having their own communities & ways of doing things in order to keep that part of their way of life alive. I think the problem is when any sector of society tries to say that they are better than another or.

I'm a bit hungover so maybe this doesn't make sense. ;)

p.s Kickaha - if you were to come to Wgtn I know we would welcome you with open arms and encourage you and teach you our practices and protocols. Initially we would give you time to learn them and even though you may not practice them we would, possibly, expect you to know them and acknowledge them. I think you should just get your arse up here and find out for yourself...but what would I know. :blah:

[MikeL]

for those who talk about muslim-women, please note that cultural issues should be totally separate to religion issues.

For cultural issues, it is possible to talk about assimmilation without actually violating human rights. But religion issues I think is much more sensitive than that because it is very personal between someone and his/her Creator.

Culture is how you were brought up, but religion is what you believe and there is nobody that should try to change that.

Marmoot, I don't think it is possible to make that distinction. Religion is very closely tied up with culture, which I define as the particular ways of living our lives which we inherit from our family and social predecessors. Immigrants can usually fairly easily change their cultural practices to do with food, dress etc. in order to fit in to the new environment, but when the host country's culture (and laws) clash with their religious beliefs there is bound to be argument over whether compromises can be made, and by whom.
I personally have no problem with women wearing the burqa in most circumstances but I would question whether their right to hide their faces is so absolute that it can or should override New Zealand laws and customs, such as ID photos, giving evidence in court etc. I am fairly sure that any serious argument about the right to be veiled in these circumstances would rely on religion rather than simple custom.

[Ms Piggy]

I believe the early foreigner's (pakeha) actually tried to force the natives (Maori) to adopt their culture.
Yes I believe it was called "assimilation" and there was even policy (a lot later) put in place that banned the use of Maori language in schools, corporal punishment was dished out to those pupils who spoke it. I also believe (this is just off the top of my head) that Maori healing practises were outlawed and a few other things that I couldn't recall with out looking in a book or three.

Again sorry if I'm repeating stuff already said. Oooooo, my head hurts, need another coffee.

[F5 Dave]

& bring your bucket.

[Blakamin]

for those who talk about muslim-women, please note that cultural issues should be totally separate to religion issues.

For cultural issues, it is possible to talk about assimmilation without actually violating human rights. But religion issues I think is much more sensitive than that because it is very personal between someone and his/her Creator.

Culture is how you were brought up, but religion is what you believe and there is nobody that should try to change that.
Thats all nice to say... what about muslim countries where there are no other religions??? it then IS the culture as it dictates the way people act

[vifferman]

:Oi: Just checking - when did I say that? You didn't. My rant was just a rant. Only the first word was in response to your post, the rest was just a hobbyhorse, first spurred into a gallop by some articles in The Harold a few months ago, that questioned the whole ethos of "what's wrong with NZ is that it doesn't have enough people living in it." [And here we go again - another reply that is tangential to your post]
The comment (which I didn't bring out in my last post) which I thought was somewhat apt, was that if we increase our population to achieve some of the perceived benefits other countries with a higher population have, then we run the risk of losing the very things that give NZ its unique nature and accepting also the disadvantages that come with higher population (i.e., increased crime, urbanisation, personal insularity, etc. etc.) One has only to live in D'Auckland after living elsewhere in NZ to see this at work. :(

[MikeL]

However real cultural growth comes from responding to challenge and change with a plan and a will to do so.

There is no doubt that NZ is a vastly more interesting place now because of cultural diversity than it was the dreary 50s or 60s with its small, homogeneous population and narrowminded attitudes. However, while much has been gained, much has also been lost. The really important question is where the impetus for change comes from: external or internal pressure? Informed debate, democratic process? Planning, foresight, intelligent leadership? Or short-term reaction? What about the greed of rich people wanting to become richer?

Who has a real vision for this country?

Is NZ a better place because I can buy a cheap Japanese car and get 100 channels of satellite television, but can't afford a seaside bach because all the coastal land is being bought up by wealthy foreigners?

[James Deuce]

Yes I believe it was called "assimilation" and there was even policy (a lot later) put in place that banned the use of Maori language in schools, corporal punishment was dished out to those pupils who spoke it. I also believe (this is just off the top of my head) that Maori healing practises were outlawed and a few other things that I couldn't recall with out looking in a book or three.

Again sorry if I'm repeating stuff already said. Oooooo, my head hurts, need another coffee.
Assimilation is a 20th century concept. The original settlers were too busy digging up giant kauri stumps to worry about esoteric matters of a philosophical nature. The philosophising was done elsewhere by "learned" types and I think he distinction is hugely important. There is a desire to paint all "white" settlers with the same brush, that ignores little matters like survial and subsistence level existence doesn't leave you any time to ponder the fate of the culture you've just bumped into.

[Marmoot]

MikeL: on the contrary, it is quite possible.
When someone cannot do things based on reason of social paradigm (e.g., family tradition, people's perception, acceptance, etc) that is a cultural issue.
Example, if a woman has to wear burqa for fear of being rejected by her family if she does not, then it is clearly cultural issue.

But, (as I came from a dominantly muslim country) for some they wear burqa because their religion said so; if they do not then they risk of seducing other men which will lead to adultery; then this is a religion's teaching and there is no point in proving that their religion is wrong. This is what I meant by religion issue.

In the first case, you can argue that their family is wrong without violating their basic rights. But in the second case if you argue that their religion is wrong it violates their rights. The most basic rights a human being can have is to believe in something, and that is why some people are more than willing to defend their religion to death.

Saying that, we should review issues case by case and question the reasoning behind the action.

As a note, there is little point in debating religions. For a Christian, of course Muslim is totally wrong. Otherwise, why would he be a Christian, right? And the other way is true for a Muslim: of course a Christian is a heretic, and that is why he/she is a Muslim. So, bearing that in mind, I do not think debate on religion will ever get anywhere. What we need to do is respect each other's religion and try to get beyond that: relationships between just the human being.

[Ms Piggy]

for those who talk about muslim-women, please note that cultural issues should be totally separate to religion issues.

For cultural issues, it is possible to talk about assimmilation without actually violating human rights. But religion issues I think is much more sensitive than that because it is very personal between someone and his/her Creator.

Culture is how you were brought up, but religion is what you believe and there is nobody that should try to change that.
Yeah but for some people their religion and culture are one in the same. Take Pasifika people for example, 90% of them (in N.Z) attend church, religion is a HUGE part of their culture. so for some people religion and culture are the same.

[Ms Piggy]

Assimilation is a 20th century concept. The original settlers were too busy digging up giant kauri stumps to worry about esoteric matters of a philosophical nature. The philosophising was done elsewhere by "learned" types and I think he distinction is hugely important. There is a desire to paint all "white" settlers with the same brush, that ignores little matters like survial and subsistence level existence doesn't leave you any time to ponder the fate of the culture you've just bumped into.
I disagree (not on all of what you've said) but too hung over to "argue" constructively! :cool:

[James Deuce]

There is no doubt that NZ is a vastly more interesting place now because of cultural diversity than it was the dreary 50s or 60s with its small, homogeneous population and narrowminded attitudes. However, while much has been gained, much has also been lost. The really important question is where the impetus for change comes from: external or internal pressure? Informed debate, democratic process? Planning, foresight, intelligent leadership? Or short-term reaction? What about the greed of rich people wanting to become richer?

Who has a real vision for this country?

Is NZ a better place because I can buy a cheap Japanese car and get 100 channels of satellite television, but can't afford a seaside bach because all the coastal land is being bought up by wealthy foreigners?

Now you're asking some good questions.

It's really important that we don't "de-camp" into our interest groups and try to keep looking at a broad picture. Asking questions will no doubt raise more questions, but that's a free flowing debate.

I think that Kiwis in general struggle to accept that they have a well defined culture so they shy away from asking questions about the direction their society should take. No one generally sets the direction of anything in New Zealand thanks in part to the cultural cringe (thank goodness Maori are rejecting this approach and developing cultural self-esteem), and from a desire to avoid being labelled a social engineer at a policy setting level.

Kiwis are also politically immature, in a similar fashion to the US, with much of the decision making process "gifted" to members of political parties that are effectively 2 sides of the same coin.

There is always loss in change. Not all change is good, neither is it bad. It's amoral and happens anyway, with or without your permission. What you do with the effects of change is the key to developing a positive culture.

[TwoSeven]

Well personally i'm born and bred british. I have no desire to become a kiwi citizen - but I like living here (have spent most of my life here since I was 4 - about 25 years not including the decade I have been overseas). Hence I have perm residence rather than citizenship - the latter I have no real desire to have.

What really annoys me is people who come to this country and give away their own culture and identity in order to 'become a kiwi'.

My view is that if you are born in a country then thats who you are - you may be raised in another place (as I was raised here) that may give you a different identity but your ethnicity will always be of the place where you were born and I think people should learn to celibrate that rather than try and hide it in order to fit into another society. Changing your passport does not mean you have to change your culteral ethnicity.

Kiwis I find are pretty racist but not of the intentional kind - its more thru ignorance and lack of exposure to the rest of the world - it would be expected of a small secluded country - so is not that great a problem - you do get the same kind of behaviour in many countries. Even us Poms are often at the receiving end of it and I often notice that many kiwis dont realise that the british way of thinking/humor etc is different even if we appear to speak the same language (which in reality we dont).

I especially like the kiwi way of treating people who look different (even tho they are born here) as foreigners - many of whom have probably never been overseas in their life. I see this in the UK with british born indians - and its quite funny when they speak and have a strong british accent. So its not really just a local problem - but its important to be aware of it now - since there will be many foreigners in NZ that are born and raised here.

There is a training thing called '7 habits for highly effective people' done by the covey institute. One of the things they teach is to 'seek to understand before trying to be understood'. What it means is that when talking to another person (in everyday life) , if you adopt their way of thinking, their manerisms, their beliefs and their train of thought - in other words - to try and become that person - then when you try and communicate back - they are much more likely to understand and accept what you are saying. This also applies to dealing with different cultures - if you understand them, then its likely you wont have any problems with them.

So at the end of the day - catering for other nationalities/religions such as providing swimming facilities for people of a different ethnicity/belief is just a matter of good manners and shows that you have respect for other people.

Just my thoughts.

[Stinger]

I'm not allowed to wear my Helmet into a bank or a Gas station (Which I think is fair enough). If these Burqa's are allowed to be freely worn everywhere (along with the baggy clothing, then what's to stop them being used as a criminals uniform.... you can hide a full array of weaponry, the victims can't tell if you're male/female black/white etc.... they certainly can't identify your face.

I'm sure it would be nice to hide behind a veil sometimes... but I think if you come into our country then you should be prepared to fit in - particularly when it comes down to driver licensing, the court, issues of safety. What you do in the privacy of your own house of course is your own business.

[MikeL]

MikeL: on the contrary, it is quite possible.

What we need to do is respect each other's religion and try to get beyond that: relationships between just the human being.

Yes but, Marmoot, it all hinges on what we mean by "respect". I respect any individual's genuine beliefs if they are consistent and based on conscience. But the difficulty arises when those beliefs lead to specific acts with which I disagree.

We can agree to disagree on some of these matters and still maintain mutual respect. But what about cases where religious/cultural belief violates what I or the lawmakers of this country consider to be human rights? There was the example some time ago of female circumcision among African immigrants...

Do you see the problem?

[Ms Piggy]

& bring your bucket.
Wot are you on about???

[sAsLEX]

I am assuming he meant his bucket race bike?

[Artifice]

if somebody wants to keep the tablecloth over thier head all the time i can put up with that. but if they want a drivers liscence then they have to take the cloth off for the picture and when they get stopped by the police. that is my opinion i dont think there should be any exclusion for religion. they have a choice cloth off or no liscence in this country. thier choice they should accept thier civic responcibility or go live in a country that allows religious shenanagins. pity our government is full of fools and horses.

[vifferman]

Who has a real vision for this country?Good question. Is there a real answer?
I'm sure there are lots who have a vision of some sort, but that raises another question: Is their vision one that the majority can buy into, or is it one that just furthers an individual cause, set of values / beliefs, or whatever?

I'm concerned that for at least 25 years, the overarching 'vision' for the country seems to be one of striving to follow a particular economic philosophy. I dunno about you, but I'd rather have a gubmint that put 'quality of life' before 'appearing to be doing well enough from an economic perspective to ensure being voted in at the next election'.

Is NZ a better place because I can buy a cheap Japanese car and get 100 channels of satellite television, but can't afford a seaside bach because all the coastal land is being bought up by wealthy foreigners?See above. Depends how each person defines 'quality of life'.
For me, I wonder whether we didn't have a better quality of life when:

You could forget to lock your house/car and there was no real risk.
There was virtually zero unemployment, apart from those who deliberately chose not to work, or were physically incapable of working.
If there was a murder, that was really big news.
Most of the banks, utilities, big businesses were NZ-owned.
All land was owned by resident NZers.
There was no such thing as hospital waiting lists.
There was no such thing as student debt.
Research was not driven solely by economic necessity, but had room for curiosity.
Political correctness was more a matter of being fair and reasonable, than desperately trying to suck up to every weird and wonderful minority group, to the extent one was almost expected to be apologetic for being a light-skinned, heterosexual male.
The bureaucrats hadn't gone beserk trying to pass as many laws as possible to protect us from our own stupidity and keep us safe from the big, bad, dangerous world.
etc. etc. etc.....
Obviously, this is unrealistic, but overall, I think we've lost the plot somewhere and started to equate 'quality of life' with 'number of bright, shiny things', when the bottom line has to be the quality of our relationships with one another.

[rodgerd]

But, (as I came from a dominantly muslim country) for some they wear burqa because their religion said so; if they do not then they risk of seducing other men which will lead to adultery; then this is a religion's teaching and there is no point in proving that their religion is wrong. This is what I meant by religion issue.


Sure, but there are obviously radically different interpretations of that religious injunction to modesty as understood by, say, Iranian Muslims, Saudi Muslims and Malaysian Muslims, and that's where religion vs culture arguments come in. Different people adopt the same faith in different ways.

[rodgerd]

Yeah but for some people their religion and culture are one in the same. Take Pasifika people for example, 90% of them (in N.Z) attend church, religion is a HUGE part of their culture. so for some people religion and culture are the same.

Talk to some younger Samoan and Tongans, though. A lot of them I've run into over the years hate the churches they were raised in, having suffered through working class families doing without so the minister can have a new car.

For that matter, there's a big difference between (say) traditional acceptance of fa'fa'ine (which still occurs in the context of modern Christian Pasifika cultures), and (for example) American-inspired outfits like Destiny.

[rodgerd]

My view is that if you are born in a country then thats who you are - you may be raised in another place (as I was raised here) that may give you a different identity but your ethnicity will always be of the place where you were born and I think people should learn to celibrate that rather than try and hide it in order to fit into another society. Changing your passport does not mean you have to change your culteral ethnicity.


Bollocks. We are who we chose to be. I know more than a few Singaporeans who came to New Zealand to escape their culture, which they felt straightjacketed them. The idea who we are is where we're born is a short path to the "my country right or wrong" and equally crappy (and mindless) nationalism.



There is a training thing called '7 habits for highly effective people' done by the covey institute. One of the things they teach is to 'seek to understand before trying to be understood'.


Kind of amusing given Covey's vigourous homophobia...

[Ms Piggy]

Talk to some younger Samoan and Tongans, though. A lot of them I've run into over the years hate the churches they were raised in, having suffered through working class families doing without so the minister can have a new car.
Yup I agree there a lot of unscrupulous people out there that manipulate via religion. I did a paper this semester on Pasifika people and we had a Contact Course (b/c it was extramural), there was an acknowledgement of financial manipulation by church leaders and other issues pertaining to Pasifika people living in New Zealand. It was really interesering speaking with the Samoan and Tongan guest speakers they had and hearing it from their P.O.V.

But, I was using it as an example of culture and religion being 1 and the same for some people groups.

[James Deuce]

Good question. Is there a real answer?
I'm sure there are lots who have a vision of some sort, but that raises another question: Is their vision one that the majority can buy into, or is it one that just furthers an individual cause, set of values / beliefs, or whatever?

I'm concerned that for at least 25 years, the overarching 'vision' for the country seems to be one of striving to follow a particular economic philosophy. I dunno about you, but I'd rather have a gubmint that put 'quality of life' before 'appearing to be doing well enough from an economic perspective to ensure being voted in at the next election'.
See above. Depends how each person defines 'quality of life'.
For me, I wonder whether we didn't have a better quality of life when:

You could forget to lock your house/car and there was no real risk.
There was virtually zero unemployment, apart from those who deliberately chose not to work, or were physically incapable of working.
If there was a murder, that was really big news.
Most of the banks, utilities, big businesses were NZ-owned.
All land was owned by resident NZers.
There was no such thing as hospital waiting lists.
There was no such thing as student debt.
Research was not driven solely by economic necessity, but had room for curiosity.
Political correctness was more a matter of being fair and reasonable, than desperately trying to suck up to every weird and wonderful minority group, to the extent one was almost expected to be apologetic for being a light-skinned, heterosexual male.
The bureaucrats hadn't gone beserk trying to pass as many laws as possible to protect us from our own stupidity and keep us safe from the big, bad, dangerous world.
etc. etc. etc.....
Obviously, this is unrealistic, but overall, I think we've lost the plot somewhere and started to equate 'quality of life' with 'number of bright, shiny things', when the bottom line has to be the quality of our relationships with one another.


Child, spousal, and alchohol abuse were ways of life in NZ. If you've been on the receiving end of the above you wouldn't have a feel good attitude about the post war attitudes of NZ males in particular.

Hospital waiting lists have been generated by changes in technology, and the amount that medical science can do to maintain life in a very battered human body. Bowel resections, heart valve replacements, and kidney transplants are almost routine bordering on cosmetic procedures. 50 years ago you died if any of those organs started performing below par. No waiting list for dying people.

The not locking your house and car thing was BS IMO. My grandmother who was born in 1920, never remembered it that way, and she grew up in a rural part of Hamilton.

PC is merely a temporary reactionary bump on the way to finding a way of relating to things that have never been an issue in the past, and require a huge amount of public information and education to highlight. The "safety" issue is related to nothing more than personal greed. Bureaucrats have no desire to coddle anything or anyone, merely to provide a framework for what society apparently wants either directly or via political policy. I agree that it has become de riguer to pass blame to everything other than personal responsibility. Teach your kids otherwise and the problem goes away with time.

[Ms Piggy]

Good question. Is there a real answer?
I'm sure there are lots who have a vision of some sort, but that raises another question: Is their vision one that the majority can buy into, or is it one that just furthers an individual cause, set of values / beliefs, or whatever?

I'm concerned that for at least 25 years, the overarching 'vision' for the country seems to be one of striving to follow a particular economic philosophy. I dunno about you, but I'd rather have a gubmint that put 'quality of life' before 'appearing to be doing well enough from an economic perspective to ensure being voted in at the next election'.
See above. Depends how each person defines 'quality of life'.
For me, I wonder whether we didn't have a better quality of life when:

You could forget to lock your house/car and there was no real risk.
There was virtually zero unemployment, apart from those who deliberately chose not to work, or were physically incapable of working.
If there was a murder, that was really big news.
Most of the banks, utilities, big businesses were NZ-owned.
All land was owned by resident NZers.
There was no such thing as hospital waiting lists.
There was no such thing as student debt.
Research was not driven solely by economic necessity, but had room for curiosity.
Political correctness was more a matter of being fair and reasonable, than desperately trying to suck up to every weird and wonderful minority group, to the extent one was almost expected to be apologetic for being a light-skinned, heterosexual male.
The bureaucrats hadn't gone beserk trying to pass as many laws as possible to protect us from our own stupidity and keep us safe from the big, bad, dangerous world.
etc. etc. etc.....
Obviously, this is unrealistic, but overall, I think we've lost the plot somewhere and started to equate 'quality of life' with 'number of bright, shiny things', when the bottom line has to be the quality of our relationships with one another.

A lot of that stuff left with the global economic down turn of the 90's and the National Government shafting beneficaries through extreme welfare cuts. It's all very open to interpretation though and these are BIG questions that are really, really hard to answer! What is 'quality' if life? For some it might be a roof over your head & 3 square meals a day and enough money to pay the bills. For others it may be being able to go on an overseas trip every year, having a new car every 2yrs, being able to buy whatever they want whenever they want. It's all relative.

But I agree with you about the bottom line FS.

[Marmoot]

1)
MikeL: yes, that's is unfortunately true. Some (a lot of) people interpret their religion in a radical manner and some of their interpreted values contradict the society's norm (and sometimes intrude other people's life). In this case it is true that we need a rule saying "no, that is enough". As I have said, review the issue cae by case.....with the utmost importance on sincerity and staying away from prejudice.
Admitedly, it is hard to say when enough is enough.... :wacko:
Maybe we need to sincerely ask ourselves everytime we just about to criticize someone: what is my motivation? For example in the swimming pool case: do I mind they have separate section because wearing muslim clothes is just wrong, or do I mind because I feel insecure that they are making their own rules in multicultural society (i.e.: envious.....either they conform, or I can make my own rules too)? Or do I feel sorry for them because they need to wear those things (which I should not, because they want to themselves)?

2)

Sure, but there are obviously radically different interpretations of that religious injunction to modesty as understood by, say, Iranian Muslims, Saudi Muslims and Malaysian Muslims, and that's where religion vs culture arguments come in. Different people adopt the same faith in different ways.
As this comment also said, I think sometimes muslims are treated unfairly in so-called democratic country. Why can National Front impose skinhead appearance on their converts but muslims cannot impose burqas on their people? Because National Front conforms with Western Norms?
Or, why can Destiny's Church be allowed to impose 10% donation rule on their people? Because the issue is invisible (i.e. not involving physical appearance)?
Why can National Front and Destiny's Church be radical but Muslims must not? Are we a conformist society? If we are, then that answers the question and this matter need not be discussed any further. But if we say we are not conformist, then maybe we need to define equal treatment? I say ban National Front and Destiny's Church altogether with Muslims, or permit them all be what they want to be.


3) CONCLUSION
Democracy and Freedom that we so worship always come double-edged. Either you be a totally multicultural society and learn to tolerate or ignore each other even sometimes to the extreme, or forego that freedom and become a conformist society (i.e., Communist China circa '66, Saddam's Iraq, or South Africa during Apartheid period).

[Marmoot]

Bollocks. We are who we chose to be.

Then how come when I speak English impecably, I talk with NZ idioms, I observe NZ culture and embrace the NZ pride, but I am still an Immigrant?
Worse still, I am still a "fuckin Asian Driver" that we so hate?
:rolleyes:

[Blakamin]

A lot of that stuff left with the global economic down turn of the 90's and the National Government shafting beneficaries through extreme welfare cuts. It's all very open to interpretation though and these are BIG questions that are really, really hard to answer! What is 'quality' if life? For some it might be a roof over your head & 3 square meals a day and enough money to pay the bills. For others it may be being able to go on an overseas trip every year, having a new car every 2yrs, being able to buy whatever they want whenever they want. It's all relative.

But I agree with you about the bottom line FS.
Quality of life is a big thing...
I'd like to:
Have a job that doesn't suck.... (not even going there!)
Be able to pay my bills and still buy toys occasionally... hmmmm
Live a dream.... :yes:
Have a nice happy family... :crazy:
Food on the table... :yes:
and beer in the fridge... :yes:

and not get pissed off with the way the country is getting screwed.. :angry2:


Worse still, I am still a "fuckin Asian Driver" that we so hate?
Try being Australian!..... everythings fine until I open my mouth, and with you, it must be the other way!
we must swap oneday!
:lol:

[Marmoot]

Try being Australian!..... everythings fine until I open my mouth, and with you, it must be the other way!
we must swap oneday!
:lol:

Australians should belong to non-English speaking immigrants :laugh:
(they are English-writting people, though)

[merv]

Then how come when I speak English impecably, I talk with NZ idioms, I observe NZ culture and embrace the NZ pride, but I am still an Immigrant?
Worse still, I am still a "fuckin Asian Driver" that we so hate?
:rolleyes:

Come and live in Welly mate, I don't hear anyone bagging Asian drivers down here. Polynesian (and other Nationality) taxi drivers, that's another story.

[jrandom]

Then how come when I speak English impecably, I talk with NZ idioms, I observe NZ culture and embrace the NZ pride, but I am still an Immigrant?

Er, well, technically, if you were born in a particular state, you're always an 'immigrant' when you reside and/or gain citizenship in another. But WGAF?


Worse still, I am still a "fuckin Asian Driver" that we so hate?

Oh, get over yourself. When was the last time someone called you that?

[merv]

My Uni mates and I have come up with a new catch phrase to stem to catch ourselves when we want to judge or criticise others: "Well thats different from the way I do things." It's not right or wrong, just different and different isn't bad either.

p.s Kickaha - if you were to come to Wgtn I know we would welcome you with open arms and encourage you and teach you our practices and protocols. Initially we would give you time to learn them and even though you may not practice them we would, possibly, expect you to know them and acknowledge them. I think you should just get your arse up here and find out for yourself...but what would I know. :blah:

In the 70's when I was at Uni it was Whaddarya!! meaning difference was scarcely tolerated and I was some sort of weirdo because I didn't play rugby having retired from that after the 1965 season at school, taking up motorcycles in 1969. Besides as I mentioned earlier I was a North Islander in a foreign land, but it helped that we swamped the place with my old school mates with around a quarter of our 7th form going on to Canterbury (about 15 of us) and we met many other NI people too.

From the way the SI people talked we must have been nancy boys because we hadn't been to schools with open air dorms with snow outside. Not my sort of culture, I'm like Lynda, don't do discomfort unless I really really have to. Us HB dudes like it warm and calm - hate draughts - that's why I'm culturally wrong for Wellington, but now I've lived here too long. Even when I went flatting in ChCh I made sure I had a heater on a time switch in the bedroom so it wasn't cold when I got up in the morning.

Some of these immigrants don't know real hardship like we had to face down South eh!

Kickaha, my earlier point too, can you get a decent doughnut now? I was so used to the big fat round jobs up here full of jam and cream with icing sugar on, go down South and it was all American style with the hole in the middle. No class at all. You needed a decent doughnut to make a real meal in conjunction with a decent pie.

Speaking of meals, the culture then was everything was like steak, eggs and chips, or sausages, eggs and chips, with the blob of coleslaw on the side of the oval plate. Passing through Picton we used to eat at Bill's Top Spot restaurant to aid his sponsorship of John Woodley, and yes there was no yuppie coffee then. Real men don't like foam in their cup.

[Marmoot]

Oh, get over yourself. When was the last time someone called you that?

Last saturday, when I was going 60 in a 50 zone M'way construction. Someone tailgated me all the way into Mobil Quay St before pointing out my yellowness.
:wacko:
Yes, Jrandom, it happens more often than you think. That's why I was a bit p155ed off on one of your thread, but probably that's just me having a bad day.

Oh, and the week before that a lady in a Mitsubishi Wan....eh, Pajero....waved a middle finger up my face for not speeding up in that particular M'way stretch too, but that is irrelevant in this case. Got me fed up with that construction zone, though...... :blink: Anyone got the same situation happe.......ah, best not to hijack the thread :laugh:

[Ms Piggy]

and not get pissed off with the way the country is getting screwed.. :angry2:

Which again is a matter of opinion. Possibly a hijack and maybe you've mentioned it somewhere else but, how is it you think the country is getting screwed? I'm always interested in why people say that and where your POV is coming from.

I personally thought we were doin' ok at the moment.

[Ms Piggy]

Some of these immigrants don't know real hardship like we had to face down South eh!

Being a mainlander myself I know how bloody cold it can get but I also know that I had many a great summer and swam in the ocean lots. Cold? Bollocks! Although I am a bit of a sun worshipper and don't like being cold :cold: :no:

Although I must say when I shifted back to Dunedin for 9mths in 99/00 I noticed a distinct backwardness in their attitudes to people of other ethnicities. Ho hum.

[Ms Piggy]

Then how come when I speak English impecably, I talk with NZ idioms, I observe NZ culture and embrace the NZ pride, but I am still an Immigrant?
Worse still, I am still a "fuckin Asian Driver" that we so hate?
:rolleyes:
I reckon it the same with all minority groups. People make HUGE assumptions based on appearance. It sucks.

I recall a guy who was wheelchair bound telling us that quite often people would ignore him and treat him as if he was intellectually disabled too. He said he was in a resturant and the wating staff asked someone he was with what he wanted to order! (that was a while ago though)

And people often make assumptions of people who have tattoos or peircings. I always found it amusing when I got my 1st tattoo, I worked in a fabric shop and we used to get older women coming in and I had bulit up a friendly relationship with a lot of them. I think it really challenged their way of thinking when someone that they knew and had a fondness for had a tattoo. Possibly (and I'm assuming now) they had preconceieved ideas that only "nasty types" had tattoos and here was the helpful young woman from the fabric shop with one....hmmmmmmm.

It's interesting for me b/c I'm learning to value people for who they are and sometimes what they believe doesn't matter. I can think of friends I have made who have different political, religious or personal philosophies on life than me and I am grateful for those people b/c they help keep me real and checking why I believe what I believe. I have friends who seem to only wnat to be around people who agree with them and believe what they believe - I reckon thats pretty dull and narrow minded.

[Marmoot]

It's interesting for me b/c I'm learning to value people for who they are and sometimes what they believe doesn't matter. I can think of friends I have made who have different political, religious or personal philosophies on life than me and I am grateful for those people b/c they help keep me real and checking why I believe what I believe.

Now, if everybody is like that, that is the ideal manifesto of freedom & democracy.
But there can be no ideal in this world, can there? :yes:

As far as how NZ is doing, I think it is still ok, but it certainly has gone down quite far from, say, 5 years ago.
5 years ago I can just keep my keys under my doormat and if I loose my wallet a kind policeman would return it to me (both real story). Now I lock my door all the time but still managed to get burgled 5 times, and a kind gentlemen helped spent my cousin's money by literally snatching her wallet away from her.

Ah well....I'm sure it's just a bad day......

[HanaBelle]

"Yes, come to NZ, but do not expect that we will change our customs and laws to suit you"

Funny, that seems a historically familiar sentiment, I think Maori said that too, and then, as pointed out, there were millions on the way here...

What? goes around, comes around?

HB

[MikeL]

People make HUGE assumptions based on appearance. It sucks.


And people often make assumptions of people who have tattoos or peircings.

Good point. Prejudice is based on generalizations. Generalizations in themselves are not necessarily bad - it's how they are used that makes them good or bad. Too often they are a substitute for careful thought.

When I was young, tattoos were associated with uncouthness, juvenile delinquency, a sea-faring background or other undesirable attributes. Having been brought up in a respectable lower-middle-class/upper-working class family with social aspirations, and therefore indoctrinated in the appropriate values, it would never have occurred to me to have a tattoo.

When my elder son returned from America a few years ago with "Woodstock" proudly tattooed on his upper arm, I had to overcome some residual distaste before I could pretend to admire it. Now I think it's O.K., although I wonder whether some years from now he might outgrow it. A naked lady would have been more universal...

The longer I live the more convinced I become that judging others is judging (and usually damning) yourself.

On the other hand there are certain things that really get up my nose...

[rodgerd]

Then how come when I speak English impecably, I talk with NZ idioms, I observe NZ culture and embrace the NZ pride, but I am still an Immigrant?
Worse still, I am still a "fuckin Asian Driver" that we so hate?
:rolleyes:

Yeah, well, it's an imperfect world where some people still believe shit like "you are where you're born".

(My reference point for the stupidity of anti-Asian bigotry in New Zealand is my dad, who grew up around market gardens in the Otago/Southland area, many of which are run by Chinese families who've been in New Zealand since the Gold Rush days, and have doubtless been here a damn sight longer than some of those cunts in the National Front).

[Blakamin]

Which again is a matter of opinion. Possibly a hijack and maybe you've mentioned it somewhere else but, how is it you think the country is getting screwed? I'm always interested in why people say that and where your POV is coming from.

I personally thought we were doin' ok at the moment.
Just my view of the health system... cousin had appointment, hospital cancel, goes to quack 3 days later looses leg instead of just toes = screwed
to me anyway :ar15:

peoples attitudes to tatts make me laugh!... my mum (also in a wheelchair!)
got her first tatt (pretty dolphin on shoulder blade) when she was 64

difference between tattooed and non tattooed people.... tattooed people dont care if you're not tattooed

[rodgerd]

There was virtually zero unemployment, apart from those who deliberately chose not to work, or were physically incapable of working.


I think you'll find this was almost entirely a change bought on by Britain saying, "thanks for all the young men you sacrificed to keep us free, our new friends the Germans will give us more money to be in the Common Market." And leaving it to us with a wave of the middle finger.



Research was not driven solely by economic necessity, but had room for curiosity.


*ahahahahaha* That would be why New Zealand scientists of note from your age that never existed all ended up overseas, right? New Zealand held intellectuals of any stripe - scientists, artists, whatever - in contempt for the most part.




Political correctness was more a matter of being fair and reasonable, than desperately trying to suck up to every weird and wonderful minority group, to the extent one was almost expected to be apologetic for being a light-skinned, heterosexual male.


Oh, bullshit. Tell me about the "fair and reasonable" parts of kids being punished for speaking Maori, or throwing people in jail for who they like to have sex with, then we'll talk about how opressed poor little you is.

[rodgerd]

Then how come when I speak English impecably,

That's the problem, see. Only you bloody foreigners speak English properly. You'll have to start speaking like a local...

[Fryin Finn]

Come and live in Welly mate, I don't hear anyone bagging Asian drivers down here. Polynesian (and other Nationality) taxi drivers, that's another story.

Yeah well I could bag a few Asian drivers - One idiot reversed back into me at an intersection (I was on a hill and couldn't backpedal) He had a filthy rear windscreen. And one fine young chap passed a cyclist and turned left in front of him. The cyclist was going to drag the driver out of his car and beat him to a pulp. I pulled him off and told him it was not worth it. Then nearly punched the driver out myself.
Then again I have plenty of stories about Honky Ma Fah crap drivers too :stoogie:

[Marmoot]

Yeah well I could bag a few Asian drivers - One idiot reversed back into me at an intersection (I was on a hill and couldn't backpedal) He had a filthy rear windscreen. And one fine young chap passed a cyclist and turned left in front of him. The cyclist was going to drag the driver out of his car and beat him to a pulp. I pulled him off and told him it was not worth it. Then nearly punched the driver out myself.
Then again I have plenty of stories about Honky Ma Fah crap drivers too :stoogie:

do you have many stories about kiwi drivers too? And how about pommie drivers? Or african drivers?
Or are they all only about "other" drivers?

[James Deuce]

do you have many stories about kiwi drivers too? And how about pommie drivers? Or african drivers?
Or are they all only about "other" drivers?


Kiwi drivers are violent anti social lunatics with very poor skills and situational awareness compared to UK drivers.

[El Dopa]

Thats all nice to say... what about muslim countries where there are no other religions??? it then IS the culture as it dictates the way people act

Name one (except Afghanistan, which is arguably a unique case).

There are freely and openly practising Christians in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt......

[Kickaha]

Name one (except Afghanistan, which is arguably a unique case).

There are freely and openly practising Christians in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt......
I would argue that they are not freely and openly practising Christianity in Egypt,they are discriminated against and have a lot of restrictions placed on them that aren't also applied to those practising the dominant religion


and bring your bucket
Long way to bring it just so you can thrash me


The not locking your house and car thing was BS IMO. My grandmother who was born in 1920, never remembered it that way, and she grew up in a rural part of Hamilton
It wasn't untill the early eighties and all the kids had left home that my parents started locking theirs and where I lived in Chch we didnt until the early nineties,it wasn't unusual to come home and find your friends making themselves at home and we did the same at their places


Kickaha, my earlier point too, can you get a decent doughnut now? no idea I'm watching my weight :msn-wink:

[scumdog]

The not locking your house and car thing was BS IMO. My grandmother who was born in 1920, never remembered it that way, and she grew up in a rural part of Hamilton.



You must live in a sorry-arsed part of the country if that's the case, - more so if it's true about way back in the 1920's.

Down South it's not unusual for cars to be left unlocked (in one of my cars case I have no option -no side windows) likewise houses.

Not long ago at one of my previous employment places the car park was littered with cars sitting there unlocked with the keys still in them.

Lots of times in my job I find parked vehicles with keys in, unlocked houses, vehicles left running while owner is at ATM or shop.

Glad I'm in the frozen, unpopulated, deserted roads South :2thumbsup

[Milky]

I guess you could consider it a sign of the times or just statistics finally choosing us, but a couple of weeks back our front wall was tagged on, along with a next door neighbours wall and some power poles down our street... First time in 20+ years of my folks owning this home that it has happened. Ditto with a burglary last year.
I aint that old, but I have seen huge changes from when I was young. Things like a foreign kid in a shop screaming out "MY MOTHER IS A FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!" while (non english speaking?) mother shopped for plants. People not being courteous on the roads anymore. People driving their kids 50m to school because it is too dangerous for them to walk :no: ...

Ah the good 'ol days


Heh... If this is how I am now, imagine me as a cranky old man.... I will be absolutely INTOLERABLE :banana:

[Ms Piggy]

Just my view of the health system... cousin had appointment, hospital cancel, goes to quack 3 days later looses leg instead of just toes = screwed to me anyway :ar15:
Yup that does suck. But, not to minimise what has happened to your cousin in anyway, is that something the current 'powers that be' have done or hasn't the Health System in N.Z been an issue for a long time?


peoples attitudes to tatts make me laugh!... my mum (also in a wheelchair!)
got her first tatt (pretty dolphin on shoulder blade) when she was 64

difference between tattooed and non tattooed people.... tattooed people dont care if you're not tattooed
Yeah they're funny aye, I think what Mike L said is right though things have changed. It took my Mum a while to adjust to me having my 1st tattoo b/c "in her day" only the "funny girls" i.e. sluts & prostitutes, had tats.

Most people are pretty accepting now.

[Ms Piggy]

Now, if everybody is like that, that is the ideal manifesto of freedom & democracy.
But there can be no ideal in this world, can there? :yes:

Nope - no such thing as an "ideal world" I'm afraid to say but, I'm a hopeless romantic & idealist, just don't tell anyone!

I thinks that is b/c everyone has differing versions of what is ideal. For me it's about giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, glass half full type of philosophy etc, etc.

[James Deuce]

You must live in a sorry-arsed part of the country if that's the case, - more so if it's true about way back in the 1920's.

Down South it's not unusual for cars to be left unlocked (in one of my cars case I have no option -no side windows) likewise houses.

Not long ago at one of my previous employment places the car park was littered with cars sitting there unlocked with the keys still in them.

Lots of times in my job I find parked vehicles with keys in, unlocked houses, vehicles left running while owner is at ATM or shop.

Glad I'm in the frozen, unpopulated, deserted roads South :2thumbsup

So I'm my own Grandmother now?

I grew up in Auckland and the doors were always locked at night and when we went out.

The whole nostalgia kick thing that it was better in the past and everyone was friendlier is just crap. Just like everything was perfect in the US in the '50s if you believed what you saw on telly. Things were different, not better.

[SPman]

Kiwi drivers are violent anti social lunatics with very poor skills and situational awareness compared to UK drivers.
I thought that was the norm in most places in the world! Except for me of course. :whistle:

[James Deuce]

I thought that was the norm in most places in the world! Except for me of course. :whistle:


The difference is pretty darned marked. Had a year of driving unfamiliar roads with slightly different rules, and I haven't seen a more polite bunch of drivers, or highly dense 80mph traffic flows where gaps opened up if you put your indicator on. First day driving back in NZ some dude got out of his car with a softball bat and had a go at the car in front of him, about three cars in front of us. Too much emotion involved in driving here.

[Marmoot]

I would argue that they are not freely and openly practising Christianity in Egypt,they are discriminated against and have a lot of restrictions placed on them that aren't also applied to those practising the dominant religion

This opens a whole can of worms.....
If we are going to impose restrictions on muslims (e.g.: wearing burqas is strange; they have to take of their burqas in court, supermarket, shops, etc; they cannot wear burqas in schools, etc) doesn't it mean we are discriminating them and becoming just the same as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc, then? in other words, "restrictions placed on them that aren't also applied to those practising the dominant religion" becomes true to us.
Do we really want to be that kind of society that we so look down at?

How ironic it is that it's so easy to be what you don't want to be when the situation is flipped..... eh?
:mellow:

[Hitcher]

This opens a whole can of worms...
It only opens a can of worms for people or groups who resile against societal "norms" of what is or isn't acceptable behaviour. This doesn't involve just new immigrants.

Welcome to New Zealand. Please observe the following:
Drive on the lefthand side of the road and observe the road code.
Don't smoke in confined public spaces or areas designated as non-smoking.
Please don't keep farm animals in your back yard where this is prohibited by local by-laws.
Please declare all food and timber products on your arrival.
Please observe our animal welfare codes -- particularly those involving the keeping and slaughter of animals intended for food.
Do not attempt to bribe public officials.
Do not unfavourably compare New Zealand with Australia.
Do not wear burkas or other full-body-covering garments in public.
Etc.

[Gixxer]

I fitted right in.... they had VB when I got here :apint: :whistle:


I didn't do that badly either... wherever people ride, Im happy!!! Now I just need a Black Label beer from SA!!
:Punk:

An Aussie, a Kiwi and a South African are drinking in a pub.......the South African skulls his beer, tosses his empty glass in the air and shoots it. "In seth afrika, he says, we have so much glass we dont need to drink from the same glass twice.



The Aussie was impressed so he tosses his empty glass into the air and shoots it. "In Austrraalia" he says, "we have so much sand to make glass, we dont need to drink from the same glass twice".......



The Kiwi finished his beer, tosses his glass in the air and shoots the South African and Aussie and says....."In New Zealand, we have so many f#cking Australians and South Africans, we dont need to drink with the same ones twice"

And this from a Kiwi in Australia.
HAHAHAH

[Marmoot]

It only opens a can of worms for people or groups who resile against societal "norms" of what is or isn't acceptable behaviour. This doesn't involve just new immigrants.
....
Do not wear burkas or other full-body-covering garments in public.
Etc.

But it is true both ways, isn't it?

In Arab, the norms are:
- Wear burqas
- If you drink alcohol and get drunk, expect to be put to jail
- If you are female and commit adultery, expect to get stoned (literally)
- Don't practise non state-approved religion openly as only Allah is the true God and the others are worshiping false God
etc

And we cry they are discriminating against Christian? Aren't they just doing what Hitcher is doing (i.e.: conforming people to the so-called "society's norm")?

[rodgerd]

But it is true both ways, isn't it?

In Arab, the norms are:
- Wear burqas
- If you drink alcohol and get drunk, expect to be put to jail
- If you are female and commit adultery, expect to get stoned (literally)
- Don't practise non state-approved religion openly as only Allah is the true God and the others are worshiping false God
etc


That would be some Arab nations, not all. And you'll note I'm not travelling to Saudi Arabia and demanding they change for me.

To be honest, what strikes me as naff in a lot of this is that many of the high-profile cultural clashes are people who've come here, often as refugees, from countries that are shitholes - poor, riven by civil wars. Killing and rape are the norm - think Afganistan or Somalia. New Zealand is a pretty nice place to live. And yet people come here, saying "my home nation is an awful mess; I need sanctuary" and try to import the same cultural elements of their home country. Doesn't it occur to them that the reason New Zealand is a nice country to be may be tied up in the fact we don't have theocratic goverments, or tribal warfare, and that importing them is not a good idea?

[Stinger]

An Aussie, a Kiwi and a South African are drinking in a pub....

I like it !

[Blakamin]

And this from a Kiwi in Australia.
HAHAHAH
Might have to let some of my friends know about that one <_< where you staying???? :whistle:

from an Aussie in NZ

[MikeL]

But it is true both ways, isn't it?

In Arab, the norms are:
- Wear burqas
- If you drink alcohol and get drunk, expect to be put to jail
- If you are female and commit adultery, expect to get stoned (literally)
- Don't practise non state-approved religion openly as only Allah is the true God and the others are worshiping false God
etc

And we cry they are discriminating against Christian? Aren't they just doing what Hitcher is doing (i.e.: conforming people to the so-called "society's norm")?

There's a neat concept called cultural relativism. Might be worth looking into...

[Marmoot]

That would be some Arab nations, not all. And you'll note I'm not travelling to Saudi Arabia and demanding they change for me.

That is not my point. My point is: if we say what's happening over there is discrimination against non-muslim, why do we want to do the same here for the muslims and go down to their level?
Shouldn't we be the better society? The advanced west? The humane people who cherish freedom and equality? Or are we just another conformist society and all I've been hearing about freedom and human rights are just hypocrissy (hyphocrissy? hypocryssi?)?

This is offtopic, but seeing that we are in the mood to rant, sometimes I got fed up with these tree-hugging people too, when they cry out loud about injustice and inhumane treatment of chickens and pigs and goats when they don't really say anything about injustice and poverty happening in our backyard with our homeless and abused. When is a chicken more important than human? And as if they don't eat chicken themselves....oh right, they're vegetarian...... :o
Not that I condone battery chicken coop....but since when do spending millions of dollars for research into chicken happiness took priority over helping hungry people?

[Hitcher]

Interesting to note that New Zealand's largest free-range hen farmer is also the country's largest farmer of battery-hens. Kind of tells you something, doesn't it?

[HanaBelle]

Interesting to note that New Zealand's largest free-range hen farmer is also the country's largest farmer of battery-hens. Kind of tells you something, doesn't it?

Niche marketing?

[Lord Pac]

good stuff

[Hitcher]

Niche marketing?
Amongst other things...

[Ms Piggy]

There's a neat concept called cultural relativism. Might be worth looking into...
Very interesting.

[Gixxer]

Might have to let some of my friends know about that one <_< where you staying???? :whistle:

from an Aussie in NZ

Hahaha, that joke was sent to me by one of my Aussie co-workers, but it ended in the Aussie shooting the other two.

are your friends bikers? have not found anyone to ride with yet.

[Blakamin]

are your friends bikers? have not found anyone to ride with yet.
Bugga... will see if i can talk one into gettin on here for you... the bastard was here on monday/tuesday tooo :doh:
(i'm still recovering)
I will endevour to sort something for you when he gets home...next thurs i think.. he lives in boronia
Have you been aroung the great ocean road or up the hill behind warburton yet? (cant remember its name)
some fun roads!

[El Dopa]

This opens a whole can of worms.....
If we are going to impose restrictions on muslims (e.g.: wearing burqas is strange; they have to take of their burqas in court, supermarket, shops, etc; they cannot wear burqas in schools, etc) doesn't it mean we are discriminating them and becoming just the same as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc, then? in other words, "restrictions placed on them that aren't also applied to those practising the dominant religion" becomes true to us.
Do we really want to be that kind of society that we so look down at?

How ironic it is that it's so easy to be what you don't want to be when the situation is flipped..... eh?
:mellow:

Just the point I was going to make, although I think Kickaha's reply also made a good point.

And whilst I'm posting, I reckon the whole nostalgia 'lock yer door with a piece of string, round here it were all field when I were a lad' thing is rubbish.

Whoever mentioned the whole America in the '50's was spot on. Yeah, there might have been full employment, gentlemen tipped their hats to ladies in the street etc etc. BUT....

If you voiced a dissenting and mildly left-of-centre opinion, you were a 'red', and had effectively isolated yourself from the rest of society. Freedom of speech, my arse.

If you were black, it was open season all year round.

If you were a woman, stay at home and spit out babies. Oh, and don't open your mouth, because your opinions aren't worth shit.

If you wanted to do anything slightly different, I dunno, be an actor or something that wasn't 9-5, pissed on Friday night, watch the game Saturday, you were a 'faggot', and again it was open season.

Oh, and as has already been mentioned, if you got a tattoo, you were either a gang member or a slut.

[El Dopa]

An Aussie, a Kiwi and a South African are drinking in a pub.......the South African skulls his beer, tosses his empty glass in the air and shoots it. "In seth afrika, he says, we have so much glass we dont need to drink from the same glass twice.



The Aussie was impressed so he tosses his empty glass into the air and shoots it. "In Austrraalia" he says, "we have so much sand to make glass, we dont need to drink from the same glass twice".......



The Kiwi finished his beer, tosses his glass in the air and shoots the South African and Aussie and says....."In New Zealand, we have so many f#cking Australians and South Africans, we dont need to drink with the same ones twice"

And this from a Kiwi in Australia.
HAHAHAH

:lol: :laugh:

[Skyryder]

Don't get me swtarted on this subject. Not so long ago some asian took a slice of a house that had a protected status. He has been ordered to turn the house back to it's original condition. Said immigrant on TV believed that as he owned the house he thought that he could do as he pleased. What realy pisses me off is the bloody attitude that some can come over here and believe that they have the right to destroy our culture.

Today on the news some Indian shopkeeper was selling imported honey from India. They break our laws with impunity and there is a fucking industry funded by our taxpayer money supporting them.

Skyryder

[Joni]

An Aussie, a Kiwi and a South African are drinking in a pub.......the South African skulls his beer, tosses his empty glass in the air and shoots it. "In seth afrika, he says, we have so much glass we dont need to drink from the same glass twice.

The Aussie was impressed so he tosses his empty glass into the air and shoots it. "In Austrraalia" he says, "we have so much sand to make glass, we dont need to drink from the same glass twice".......

The Kiwi finished his beer, tosses his glass in the air and shoots the South African and Aussie and says....."In New Zealand, we have so many f#cking Australians and South Africans, we dont need to drink with the same ones twice"

And this from a Kiwi in Australia.
HAHAHAH


:blank:
Classic Gixxer!!!
Admit it... theres a few of us ya love!!! :shake:

Mmmmm South African Beer! :love2:

[Skyryder]

Kiwis I find are pretty racist but not of the intentional kind - its more thru ignorance and lack of exposure to the rest of the world -

The so called racist attitude of New Zealanders is not based on culture, skin colour etc. Nor is it based on ignorance and lack of expoosure to the rest of the world. New Zealand was subject to imigration policies that had more to do with our politicians self serving morality and gooody goody feelings about themselves than to the electorate to which they serve. No political party had a mandate to open the floodgates of immigration. New Zealanders have no tradition of racism. It's just that we have had our county changed by the so called diversity of culture by our politicians who have not had the authority or the peoples mandate to do this. Now I for one am a bit upset about this and realise that there is little that I as an indavidual can do. But if I am called a racist because of my opinions on this subject then so be it.

Skyryder

[Hitcher]

Aren't we a nation of immigrants? Everybody who's here is the result of some migration, planned or otherwise, from parts "foreign". So some of us have been here longer than others and feel like "something special" is being eroded by the arrival of people who aren't really much like "us". If that's the case then people who feel threatened must be pretty insecure with their lot.

The only one thing constant in this life is change. Get over it.

[Hitcher]

Today on the news some Indian shopkeeper was selling imported honey from India. They break our laws with impunity and there is a fucking industry funded by our taxpayer money supporting them.
Don't believe everything you hear on the news. There is considerably more involved in this particular tale then the media is reporting. Wait until it goes to Court.

[merv]

New Zealanders have no tradition of racism. It's just that we have had our county changed by the so called diversity of culture by our politicians who have not had the authority or the peoples mandate to do this. Now I for one am a bit upset about this and realise that there is little that I as an indavidual can do.

Skyryder

You can do something, vote for Winston at the next election.

[MikeL]

Aren't we a nation of immigrants? Everybody who's here is the result of some migration, planned or otherwise, from parts "foreign". So some of us have been here longer than others and feel like "something special" is being eroded by the arrival of people who aren't really much like "us". If that's the case then people who feel threatened must be pretty insecure with their lot.

The only one thing constant in this life is change. Get over it.

A bit simplistic, Hitcher. Doesn't address the issue of how much control we can and should have over our own destiny. Your philosophy seems to come down to "Accept any change and adapt to it." Should the British in 1940 have shrugged their shoulders and set about learning to live with Nazi Kultur?
An extreme example, obviously, but I think the principle is the same.

Let me ask again a question to which nobody has yet given a satisfactory answer:
Why do we have any limits at all on immigration? Put it another way:
Are there, or should there be, any factors other than economic considerations?

And I think that being threatened and feeling insecure is not necessarily a reflection of any sense of national or cultural inferiority.

[Mongoose]

Just a wee thought(probably all I am capable of :yeah: ) but why do some people claim that the majority are being intolerent of a minority who are being intolerent? In this I mean that a few people expect NZ society to change to their wants but are not prepared to change in any way to fit in with NZ society.
Any fundamentalist, pick any flavour you want, are intolerant and will never change, all the give is from one side.

[Drunken Monkey]

...Let me ask again a question to which nobody has yet given a satisfactory answer:
Why do we have any limits at all on immigration? Put it another way:
Are there, or should there be, any factors other than economic considerations? ....

Immigration is one tool used to balance (in New Zealand's case: boost) growth. Since the local population isn't growing at a fast enough rate to keep the economy moving, the government supplements with immigration.
There are basically 2 ways for people to get into NZ, either for economic purposes, where they must prove funds to start a new business, or show they have skills in an area we are lacking. The other was is to join family who have already moved to NZ.
Limits attempt to control the influx of less desirable skills, but tend to do nothing to stop people immigrating for family reasons. They can also be used to cut the overall immigration rate if the local economy can't handle the growth (or raised if growth needs to be increased)
So yes, there are factors that are other than economic, ie family, although the overall impact of this I'm not sure of. Should there be any more factors? Economic and family factors can be quantifiably measured, so it's easier to use them as metering tools. It's a bit harder to measure an immigrant's 'cultural value'.
Economic factors will always be the driving force as long as we continue capitolism, for obvious reasons. Growth is the key factor - one could write an entire thesis on why, I'm sure a quick google search will satisfy the curious :)
Quite an interesting docco on the History channel the other day about the rise and fall of the Roman Empire. Once it reached its outer limits, it could no longer fund it's army by the lands/goods seized during its camapaigns, thus the quality and size of the army was reduced and the Emprie began to crumble. The overall factor in beginning the downfall: lack of growth.

[James Deuce]

Just a wee thought(probably all I am capable of :yeah: ) but why do some people claim that the majority are being intolerent of a minority who are being intolerent? In this I mean that a few people expect NZ society to change to their wants but are not prepared to change in any way to fit in with NZ society.
Any fundamentalist, pick any flavour you want, are intolerant and will never change, all the give is from one side.
You have a really good point, but the thing to bear in mind is thanks to our journalistic standards we only get to hear about the extremists, so the moderates get tarred with the same brush. We hear very little about people who successfully bridge cultural differences in both an active and passive fashion.

[Hitcher]

A bit simplistic, Hitcher. Doesn't address the issue of how much control we can and should have over our own destiny. Your philosophy seems to come down to "Accept any change and adapt to it." Should the British in 1940 have shrugged their shoulders and set about learning to live with Nazi Kultur?
An extreme example, obviously, but I think the principle is the same.

Let me ask again a question to which nobody has yet given a satisfactory answer:
Why do we have any limits at all on immigration? Put it another way:
Are there, or should there be, any factors other than economic considerations?

And I think that being threatened and feeling insecure is not necessarily a reflection of any sense of national or cultural inferiority.
No easy answers to these questions. Facism, like Communism, would have flourished if the Poms had adopted it first, in my view, as they are a culture that loves queing up for stuff and being pushed around by authority figures. The choices of Germany and Russia were poor ones by the inventors of both regimes. That is probably fodder for another thread!

Limits on immigration other than economic ones? This is dangerously subjective territory. Do we want a "white, affluent, English-speaking, Christian New Zealand policy" or are we prepared to be a bit more liberal and accommodating? As a society we have yet to figure out and answer to this but we tend to lean more towards a liberal rather than a xenophobically-restrictive approach.

[Mongoose]

Limits on immigration other than economic ones? This is dangerously subjective territory. Do we want a "white, affluent, English-speaking, Christian New Zealand policy" or are we prepared to be a bit more liberal and accommodating? As a society we have yet to figure out and answer to this but we tend to lean more towards a liberal rather than a xenophobically-restrictive approach.

A more liberal and accommadating approach is just fine, it works, look at all the muslims that fit in, no one even notices their faith because it does not interfer with their everyday life in NZ.
A decent set of guidelines and standing up for those guidelines would be a good start. As someone said way up there its like driving on the "wrong" side of the road, everyone seems to manage that.
As soon as you make one exception to your own set of rules, guidelines, whatever you want to call them, that is when you get problems.

[Marmoot]

Don't get me swtarted on this subject. Not so long ago some asian took a slice of a house that had a protected status. He has been ordered to turn the house back to it's original condition. Said immigrant on TV believed that as he owned the house he thought that he could do as he pleased. What realy pisses me off is the bloody attitude that some can come over here and believe that they have the right to destroy our culture.

I don't think you need an Asian to do that. Even some so-called "proud New Zealanders" are already wrecking their own backyard. Remember the Piha guy who burned trees behind his home? What about those "kiwi" youngsters who spit and spat and throw chewed gums everywhere they walk? Or grafitti taggers? Or even kiwis who abused other kiwis and wreck the environment and kill the birds and do whatever they want? Humans are just humans, no matter what they are.

And

What realy pisses me off is the bloody attitude that some can come over here and believe that they have the right to destroy our culture.
I am sure the Maori felt the same way when the immigrant from England came here during the exploration? Oh, right....those were the real New Zealanders....or were they? And the fact that Maori themselves were immigrant on the first place?

Maybe we need to reflect upon ourselves before we cast the stone onto somebody else? I think humans are just humans, and will bring at least a part of their culture everywhere they go.

In the end maybe if cultures keep on spreading around the world then all place will be multicultural and it will come up to what we have been dreaming of: one peaceful world?

[MikeL]

Do we want a "white, affluent, English-speaking, Christian New Zealand policy"

No. As I've said before, multiculturalism and ethnic diversity have made NZ a vastly more vibrant and interesting place. For those of us old enough to remember, the changes and adaptations that have been made since the 60s are enormous. The debate, as I see it, comes down to the extent to which we can and should protect values and lifestyles that in the past have made this country unique. The nexus of economic growth, immigration and cultural identity is the key issue. And the thorny question is the right of those of us with a longer claim to "ownership" of this country (and I include Maori specifically in this) to determine its economic and cultural future...

[MikeL]

In the end maybe if cultures keep on spreading around the world then all place will be multicultural ?

And everybody will be the same. McDonaldization of the world may be your dream, it's my nightmare.

[vifferman]

Let me ask again a question to which nobody has yet given a satisfactory answer:
Why do we have any limits at all on immigration? Put it another way:
Are there, or should there be, any factors other than economic considerations? Something I have pondered myself, at times. My son, who has a form of autism, tends to pose questions like this, as he doesn't always see things the way we do. His view is that if people should be free to live wherever the hell they like, and if there were no distinct countries, nations, borders, etc., and people weren't so possessive and teritorial, there'd be fewer wars. Overly simplistic, I know, but still makes you think.

In the 'old days', when folk used to live in the same place for hundreds of years, unless they got an itch to wander, or ran out of resources, there were few restrictions on migration. If somewhere a person turned up who looked/sounded/acted differently, they may have been subject to suspicion, hostility and discrimination, or they may have just made their new home.
In this day of rapid travel, it's very easy for people to travel almost anywhere.
Should they be allowed to?
Are those who were 'there first' allowed to dictate who else can live there, and who cannot? Why/why not?
Ultimately, each of us is only here for a lifetime, so we can't own and keep whatever piece of dirt we camp on. But I guess while we are encamped, we like to live without others bothering us, so establish rules to prevent that happening.
I believe if we are going to say, "This is our country - we will decide who will live here with us!", then factors other than economic ones are important. It would make our lot worse if we allow immigrantion of those who are going to ultimately lower our standard of living due to being dependent on us, or having criminal or other undesirable characteristics. Our culture to a large extent determines what our view of what is 'undesirable' is, and we can't help that, we can't help being subjective and judging things according to the standards of our culture. Of course, our culture does change with time, as it is influenced by other cultures, so those standards change too.

[vifferman]

And the thorny question is the right of those of us with a longer claim to "ownership" of this country (and I include Maori specifically in this) to determine its economic and cultural future...Indeed. Isn't it inherently racist to divide the country into ethnicities? Despite having genes from ancestors of various countries on the other side of the world, I do not see myself as a European, nor as a Pakeha, and object to being called either, and to being forced to identify myself as either. I am a New Zealander, and that's that. If I had any Maori blood, even 1/64th, I could legitimately call myself a Maori, but it wouldn't markedly change anything for me. I bet there are some 1/8th or 1/64th Maori whose non-Maori ancestors arrived in the country long after my ancestors. So who has more of a claim to "ownership", and why?
And how whacky is it that some people are paid compensation for the sins committed by their European ancestors against their Maori ancestors?

[Ms Piggy]

The so called racist attitude of New Zealanders is not based on culture, skin colour etc. Nor is it based on ignorance and lack of expoosure to the rest of the world. New Zealand was subject to imigration policies that had more to do with our politicians self serving morality and gooody goody feelings about themselves than to the electorate to which they serve. No political party had a mandate to open the floodgates of immigration. New Zealanders have no tradition of racism. It's just that we have had our county changed by the so called diversity of culture by our politicians who have not had the authority or the peoples mandate to do this. Now I for one am a bit upset about this and realise that there is little that I as an indavidual can do. But if I am called a racist because of my opinions on this subject then so be it.

Skyryder
Original policies encouraging immigration of Pasifika peoples in the 70's was for a cheap unskilled labour source. While they were still needed Government and employers overlooked the fact that their work visas had expired and "encouraged" them to stay and enter into a settled lifestyle here, then when the economic down turn came they were overstayers and there were the dawn raids.

If thats not targetted racism I dunno what is.

Possibly what you're refering to are current policies Skyyder but, I'm not that familar with them.

[Ms Piggy]

You have a really good point, but the thing to bear in mind is thanks to our journalistic standards we only get to hear about the extremists, so the moderates get tarred with the same brush. We hear very little about people who successfully bridge cultural differences in both an active and passive fashion.
Thats so true Jim - a prime example of media manipulation and focusing on the extremists was when I went on the anti-racism march. The march itself had a really positive and non-aggressive atmsophere but, it got about 5 seconds of air time while to extremists that were hasseling the National Front (before the marchers were anywhere near parliament) got all the focus. Shots of a man with a bloodied head, people being arrested etc, etc and then media hype about how dangerous it would be in town that night! Arrrrrrrghhhhhhhh!!

[Ms Piggy]

What realy pisses me off is the bloody attitude that some can come over here and believe that they have the right to destroy our culture.

So what is "our culture"? I always find it interesting when people get their knickers in a knot about "destroying our culture" but, I'm not sure what that really is. I mean I have strong Scottish connections b/c it's where my ancestors are from and I'm aware that there are certain things that as a mianlander I say or do differently from a North Islander but...what is "our culture"?

Anybody?

And I have to agree with what Marmoot said I'm sure indigenous people all over the world got more than a little pissed off when their lands, culture and ways of life were destroyed and out lawed by colonists.

[Ms Piggy]

And everybody will be the same. McDonaldization of the world may be your dream, it's my nightmare.
If you're meaning we'll all end up the same - that scares me too but, I think multi-culturalism is inevitable and I think being culturally diverse is a great thing as long as it's not in a superior way.

[Blakamin]

So what is "our culture"?
I'm an Aussie.... VB an BBQ's .... followed by VB for breakky... ;)

[Hitcher]

The debate, as I see it, comes down to the extent to which we can and should protect values and lifestyles that in the past have made this country unique.
Defining our intrinsic values and lifestyle is something that proves difficult for New Zealanders. Just look at the discussion about changing our flag -- should we continue to cling to a 50-year-old view of Queen and Empire or strive for something more self-actuated based on some underlying principles of "what it means to be a New Zealander"?

We have no "mission statement" or articulated set of "values". If we don't have agreement on what it is we value, then how can we protect anything? God help us that politicians should get involved in this process...

[Marmoot]

And everybody will be the same. McDonaldization of the world may be your dream, it's my nightmare.


McDonaldization = assimmilation, where in the end everybody has 1 culture.

What I referred was "multiculturalism", where in the whole world people live side by side even though their cultures are different, and they tolerate each other.
But I know that would be impossible in reality

Different meaning there, MikeL

[TwoSeven]

On the flag thing - the design I like is the black flag with a silver kiwi in the top left hand corner cupped in two silver ferns. Like the united nations emblem but with a kiwi instead of a map of the world.

You could leave the stars there in silver as well since they are pretty much an common symbol as well.

[vifferman]

Defining our intrinsic values and lifestyle is something that proves difficult for New Zealanders. Just look at the discussion about changing our flag -- should we continue to cling to a 50-year-old view of Queen and Empire or strive for something more self-actuated based on some underlying principles of "what it means to be a New Zealander"?The later, I believe.


We have no "mission statement" or articulated set of "values". If we don't have agreement on what it is we value, then how can we protect anything? God help us that politicians should get involved in this process...And we're unlikely to be able to sort this, till we become a republic, instead of a pseudo-colonial outpost of the British Empahh. I think we're beginning to take small steps down this road, when you look at what's happening with our courts hierarchy. And I think too that having at least one generation - maybe two - who don't think much of the whole concept of monarchy (especially now that 'Queen' Di is gone, so there's no-one to idolise), will help to speed us on the way to saying "we are independent, not under the thumb of the Queen".

[Skyryder]

So what is "our culture"? I always find it interesting when people get their knickers in a knot about "destroying our culture" but, I'm not sure what that really is. I mean I have strong Scottish connections b/c it's where my ancestors are from and I'm aware that there are certain things that as a mianlander I say or do differently from a North Islander but...what is "our culture"?

Anybody?.

The house in question was one of the first state houses. Now you may not think that a state house is worth protecting, your choice, but it is a piece of "our culture." New Zealand culture is historicly linked to both England and Australia. To try and seperate them' can be difficult but not impossable. One example of this is one of the older suberbs of Chch Sydenham. This was the working class area and our founding fathers in their wisdom decided to call the streets after' poets and writers. Wordsworth St, Coleridges St Tennyson St etc. This is culture and in particular a little bit of Christchuch culture. Not too sure how old you are C S L but if you do not know what the kiwi culture is by now slow down and look. It is all about, usually tucked in next to the American culture.

Incedently tonight is a little bit our culture aka English culture Guy Fawks night. But it is slowly beaing eclipsed by Hallowen.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

The later, I believe.

And we're unlikely to be able to sort this, till we become a republic, instead of a pseudo-colonial outpost of the British Empahh. I think we're beginning to take small steps down this road, when you look at what's happening with our courts hierarchy. And I think too that having at least one generation - maybe two - who don't think much of the whole concept of monarchy (especially now that 'Queen' Di is gone, so there's no-one to idolise), will help to speed us on the way to saying "we are independent, not under the thumb of the Queen".

What a load of crap.

We live under the Westminster system, (and we are independent or have you been asleep during the last few elections) not under the thumbs of the Queen

Skyryder

[James Deuce]

What a load of crap.

We live under the Westminster system, (and we are independent or have you been asleep during the last few elections) not under the thumbs of the Queen

Skyryder

We're not independent actually. We became a Realm in 1980 something, and there are still issues with that status in regard to full independence. We were a Dominion prior to that which effectively meant any decision our pollies made could have been overridden by the Governor-General or the "British" parliament, or the Queen if she was particularly interested. Becoming a realm reduced the powers of all the previous parties, and with the Privy Council leaving us (not the other way round as has been incorrectly reported many times), we have an opportunity to establish a consititution and an independent legislature that understands NZ issues.

Which would effectively be a modern founding document for the NZ state and an opportunity to comprehensively address the issues that have been raised in this discussion.

The Westminster system is probably a misnomer when describing the NZ parliament now as we have no upper house and proportional representation.

[Jackrat]

Indeed. Isn't it inherently racist to divide the country into ethnicities? Despite having genes from ancestors of various countries on the other side of the world, I do not see myself as a European, nor as a Pakeha, and object to being called either, and to being forced to identify myself as either. I am a New Zealander, and that's that. If I had any Maori blood, even 1/64th, I could legitimately call myself a Maori, but it wouldn't markedly change anything for me. I bet there are some 1/8th or 1/64th Maori whose non-Maori ancestors arrived in the country long after my ancestors. So who has more of a claim to "ownership", and why?
And how whacky is it that some people are paid compensation for the sins committed by their European ancestors against their Maori ancestors?

Good question mate,
I'm 1/8th Maori but don't identify myself as Maori,I also hate being called a Pakeha.I find the term bloody offensive.My older sister used her Maori blood lines to buy a farm and identifys as being Maori,yet she's as white as a sheet.
And there's your answer,Because there's money in it,an we NEW ZEALANDERS are paying for it. :wacko:

[TwoSeven]

I'll tick british if there is a box on the form, if not i'll tick other and either right british or english depending on my mood (its whats listed in my passport so thats what I write). I too find Pakeha rather offensive because it lables me as something I am not.

[rodgerd]

I'll tick british if there is a box on the form, if not i'll tick other and either right british or english depending on my mood (its whats listed in my passport so thats what I write). I too find Pakeha rather offensive because it lables me as something I am not.Me, I'm a Pacific Islander. No, not a Polynesian or Melanesian. But I was born on an island in the South Pacific, I've lived on a South Pacific island most of my life, and I'm damned if I'll call myself "European" or "British". I've lived in Europe, and all it did was remind me my heart is in this land
.

[Ms Piggy]

The house in question was one of the first state houses. Now you may not think that a state house is worth protecting, your choice, but it is a piece of "our culture." New Zealand culture is historicly linked to both England and Australia. To try and seperate them' can be difficult but not impossable. One example of this is one of the older suberbs of Chch Sydenham. This was the working class area and our founding fathers in their wisdom decided to call the streets after' poets and writers. Wordsworth St, Coleridges St Tennyson St etc. This is culture and in particular a little bit of Christchuch culture. Not too sure how old you are C S L but if you do not know what the kiwi culture is by now slow down and look. It is all about, usually tucked in next to the American culture.

Incedently tonight is a little bit our culture aka English culture Guy Fawks night. But it is slowly beaing eclipsed by Hallowen.


Skyryder
Hey I wasn't make a dig at your statement I was just asking a general genuine question about what other people (including yourself) think New Zealand culture is. I'm intersted to know. I'm thirty mumble mumble btw. I had a chat with a friend and she had just been o/s and said that it became very clear to her that N.Z has it's own culture while she was o/s. Maybe b/c I haven't been o/s I am not so aware of it. Hence my reason for the question.

[James Deuce]

Me, I'm a Pacific Islander. No, not a Polynesian or Melanesian. But I was born on an island in the South Pacific, I've lived on a South Pacific island most of my life, and I'm damned if I'll call myself "European" or "British". I've lived in Europe, and all it did was remind me my heart is in this land
.


Dude, I always write Tangata Pasifika on the line next to "Other".

[Skyryder]

Hey I wasn't make a dig at your statement I was just asking a general genuine question about what other people (including yourself) think New Zealand culture is. I'm intersted to know. I'm thirty mumble mumble btw. I had a chat with a friend and she had just been o/s and said that it became very clear to her that N.Z has it's own culture while she was o/s. Maybe b/c I haven't been o/s I am not so aware of it. Hence my reason for the question.

No dig taken CS. Just a little advice with this fast pace of our lives. Sometimes you realy do have to slow down to see what is going on, and not just on the bike.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

We're not independent actually. We became a Realm in 1980 something, and there are still issues with that status in regard to full independence. We were a Dominion prior to that which effectively meant any decision our pollies made could have been overridden by the Governor-General or the "British" parliament, or the Queen if she was particularly interested. Becoming a realm reduced the powers of all the previous parties, and with the Privy Council leaving us (not the other way round as has been incorrectly reported many times), we have an opportunity to establish a consititution and an independent legislature that understands NZ issues.

Which would effectively be a modern founding document for the NZ state and an opportunity to comprehensively address the issues that have been raised in this discussion.

The Westminster system is probably a misnomer when describing the NZ parliament now as we have no upper house and proportional representation.


Whether New Zealand is independent has very much to do how the nature of 'political independance' is interperated. Like most words in the English language independence can be applied in many ways all of which allude to a general theme. You state that we are not independent. That is correct in as much that we are subject to numerous international treaties and convention but wrong when these treaties and convention have been entered into willingly and by our choosing. I have p-osted a link on the Westminster System of which the New Zealand Parliment operates under. While it is true that an upper house is part of the West. System it is not a prerequisite. http://www.fact-index.com/w/we/westminster_system.html

I think this is waht you are talking about. Not too sure of the reason for the change from a Dominion to a Realm but at a guess it would formalise some measure of responsibility over the said islands and the Ross Dependency. This is a guess on my part. There has been no change in the role of the Queens Representitive concerning legislation: as far as I know.

The New Zealand Letters Patent and associated Prerogative Instruments which describe the Realm of New Zealand and constitute the office of the Governor-General of New Zealand, state the following:

“Her Majesty the Queen of New Zealand does hereby constitute, order and declare that there should be, in and over the Realm of New Zealand including the Cook Islands, Niue, Tokelau and the Ross Dependency, a Governor-General and Commander-in-Chief who shall be our representative in Our said Realm of New Zealand, and shall have and may exercise the powers and authorities conferred on him by these Our Letters Patent .."


This link gives a brief outline of our Constitution. http://www.gg.govt.nz/role/constofnz.htm

I am of the opinion that the Republican sentiment that now appears to be gathering momentum has more to do with the belief that if New Zealand goes down the Republican road then the Treaty of Waitangi and its issues will be swept away. This will not happen. I could write volums on this but when you consider that our system has survived since the days of King John and the Magna Carta and the political evolution has taken place from then till now in reguards to the Westminster system along with all of its variations, I do not believe that any republican model will survive the length of time that our current system has.

Skyryder








http://www.gg.govt.nz/role/constofnz.htm

[Ms Piggy]

No dig taken CS. Just a little advice with this fast pace of our lives. Sometimes you realy do have to slow down to see what is going on, and not just on the bike.

Skyryder
I was kinda aware from your original posting what you meant anyway :)

But no one has really answered my question on what is N.Z culture yet. Which is what I was asking.

Btw - I think historical buildings should be preserved. Too right! :yes:

[James Deuce]

Whether New Zealand is independent has very much to do how the nature of 'political independance' is interperated. Like most words in the English language independence can be applied in many ways all of which allude to a general theme. You state that we are not independent. That is correct in as much that we are subject to numerous international treaties and convention but wrong when these treaties and convention have been entered into willingly and by our choosing. I have p-osted a link on the Westminster System of which the New Zealand Parliment operates under. While it is true that an upper house is part of the West. System it is not a prerequisite. http://www.fact-index.com/w/we/westminster_system.html

I think this is waht you are talking about. Not too sure of the reason for the change from a Dominion to a Realm but at a guess it would formalise some measure of responsibility over the said islands and the Ross Dependency. This is a guess on my part. There has been no change in the role of the Queens Representitive concerning legislation: as far as I know.

The New Zealand Letters Patent and associated Prerogative Instruments which describe the Realm of New Zealand and constitute the office of the Governor-General of New Zealand, state the following:

“Her Majesty the Queen of New Zealand does hereby constitute, order and declare that there should be, in and over the Realm of New Zealand including the Cook Islands, Niue, Tokelau and the Ross Dependency, a Governor-General and Commander-in-Chief who shall be our representative in Our said Realm of New Zealand, and shall have and may exercise the powers and authorities conferred on him by these Our Letters Patent .."


This link gives a brief outline of our Constitution. http://www.gg.govt.nz/role/constofnz.htm

I am of the opinion that the Republican sentiment that now appears to be gathering momentum has more to do with the belief that if New Zealand goes down the Republican road then the Treaty of Waitangi and its issues will be swept away. This will not happen. I could write volums on this but when you consider that our system has survived since the days of King John and the Magna Carta and the political evolution has taken place from then till now in reguards to the Westminster system along with all of its variations, I do not believe that any republican model will survive the length of time that our current system has.

Skyryder



http://www.gg.govt.nz/role/constofnz.htm

You are right, and it does depend on interpretation. I think you've taken the ultra conservative view.

The Westminster system is not a perfect system, despite a long history and tradition, and it most certainly does not entertain the illusion of free speech or individual rights. The freedom of action of the state in relation to international standing and issues, and the rights of government and corporate bodies take precedence over individual rights. New Zealand does not have an independant charter or a constitution of it's own. We have adopted someone else's irrespective of whether or not it fits, which it palpably doesn't given the level of dissatisfaction evident in a wide range of NZ society. If we are independant why retain a Governer General, an archaic role designed to make sure that the wild colonials toe an irrelevant line?

I believe that our society has changed out of all recognition in the last 20 years, and the laws and regulations of the UK and the Commonwealth do not reflect NZ's changing place in the world. We have certainly been economically disadvantaged by our attitude toward Commonwealth trading partner priorities, and most certainly have little in common with the UK, other than a fascination with a minority oval ball sport. Ignore the fact that we have diverged from our historical base significantly and you risk a case of Ostrich Syndrome.

I am all for managed change. However the nature of NZ politics prevents managed and structured change thanks to a 3 year electoral term. I've worked in Government and the cycle goes; Election, Break all the promises, define the real agenda, organise the budget to implement the agenda, begin implementation, cease implementation to begin telling the next round promises that will be broken at the next election. That suits a Constitutional Mornarchy down to the ground because nothing ever changes or if it does it gets so FUBARed that it actually harms the people it was designed to help. Constitutional and Electoral reform shouldn't be a negative process. It should bear the promise of a unique and dynamic society rather than a hidebound backward looking conservative nostalgia-fest.

CSL - define the word culture within the frame of reference that it has been bandied about to describe the make up and structure of a society and its dynamic nature and you will have a difficult task. Culture is one of those words with an assumed dennotative meaning, when in fact the connotations defeat an attempt at definition, particularly at an individual level. Dig deeper on that one and you find that everybody has an idea, though it will be vague and wildly different.

[pete376403]

The not locking your house and car thing was BS IMO. My grandmother who was born in 1920, never remembered it that way, and she grew up in a rural part of Hamilton.

My dad was an electrician in Upper Hutt, in the 60s and 70's. He used to leave his van, a Commer with sliding doors, parked on the street, with the keys in it. Often he would leave the drivers door open. In the back of the van were his tools, reels of copper wire, and other electrical goods. As far as I am aware, nothing ever went missing.
As for locking the doors, the front door was always locked because no one ever used that door. The back door only got locked when we were on holiday.

[Ms Piggy]

CSL - define the word culture within the frame of reference that it has been bandied about to describe the make up and structure of a society and its dynamic nature and you will have a difficult task. Culture is one of those words with an assumed dennotative meaning, when in fact the connotations defeat an attempt at definition, particularly at an individual level. Dig deeper on that one and you find that everybody has an idea, though it will be vague and wildly different.
Exactly, this is kinda my point. What one person considers a valuable & valid part of N.Z culture another may not and it has (I'm sure) changed & evolved greatly since N.Z was 1st colonised. Tricky, tricky, tricky.

[Ms Piggy]

That whole discussion on "the good ole days" here in N.Z is generally rubbish. It wasn't that bad stuff didn't happen, it was that it wasn't talked about or recognised. Well in my Grandmothers experience as a young girl in rural N.Z that was certainly the case - incest, adultery, violence, theft....no such thing as "the good ole days", it's just portrayed that way. When you think about it, for an example, issues like child molestation used to be treated extremely differently.

[rodgerd]

My dad was an electrician in Upper Hutt, in the 60s and 70's. He used to leave his van, a Commer with sliding doors, parked on the street, with the keys in it. Often he would leave the drivers door open. In the back of the van were his tools, reels of copper wire, and other electrical goods. As far as I am aware, nothing ever went missing.
As for locking the doors, the front door was always locked because no one ever used that door. The back door only got locked when we were on holiday.

*shrug* My wife's great-uncle lives in Auckland and leaves the keys in his car, which is a standard, newish econobox. Doesn't seem to cause problems.

[merv]

That whole discussion on "the good ole days" here in N.Z is generally rubbish. It wasn't that bad stuff didn't happen, it was that it wasn't talked about or recognised. Well in my Grandmothers experience as a young girl in rural N.Z that was certainly the case - incest, adultery, violence, theft....no such thing as "the good ole days", it's just portrayed that way. When you think about it, for an example, issues like child molestation used to be treated extremely differently.

Just no TV to graphically publicise it eh!

[Ms Piggy]

Just no TV to graphically publicise it eh!
I think it was a combination of that and the way "things like that" were never openly dicussed.

[merv]

I think it was a combination of that and the way "things like that" were never openly dicussed.

Yeah like girls had "just gone up North" or whatever when they got pregnant and no one admitted to it.

[scumdog]

Sure, the 'good old days' were not THAT good, they had their share of negatives, only thing is we now STILL have those same negatives (albeit more publicised) but now we also have an increase of violence,dishonesty and drug problems - and so called 'tougher' laws don't seem to be fixing THOSE! - society needs to look inwards for answers I think.

More liberalism = more problems :weep:

[MikeL]

The trouble with trying to have an intelligent discussion about the "good old days" is that young people have no experience of them and old people have very selective memories...

Some things were better, some things were worse.

One thing I'm fairly sure about is that burglaries and crimes of dishonesty were relatively uncommon, to the extent that houses and cars were routinely left unlocked. All the time I was living at home in Wellington as a teenager I was never given a house key. The back door was always left unlocked.

[Paul in NZ]

Pish! The old days were great but these days opportunity abounds!

I left my mostly red 1989 starlet in the big carpark the other day unlocked and with the drivers window wound down... Nothing got stolen (hey that broken cassette player is a priceless antique).

As for those 3 year old $39 seat covers (the pair), why, they are nearly new!

In fact... Instead of getting stolen...

A couple of rough lookin' street kids threw $5 inside. Probably thought I needed it worse than they did!

I love that car....

Paul N

[scumdog]

To illustrate a point: in 1974 my 3.3 Victor "failed to procede" at Franz Joseph, grabbed my pack and rifle and hitch-hiked to Wanaka, got a rental (a Mini!) and drove to Dunedin to drop it off, had a couple of hours to kill before the bus home was due to leave, left my pack at the bus station, threw my rifle over my shoulder and went window shopping.

Points: Depite carrying a rifle I got a lift from Franz tp Wanaka, despite walking around the shops with a rifle over my shoulder nobody 'freaked-out' and no A.O.S. call out, times WERE more laid-back in those days :niceone:

[James Deuce]

but now we also have an increase of violence,dishonesty and drug problems -:

I have no idea what you're on but I want some. Alcohol and Nicotine are drugs and they have been abused at terrifying levels in NZ. Family and domestic violence used to be an institutional right, now at the very least it is OK for a woman to end a relationship with a violent man and expect some level of community support.

I respectfully submit that the older you get the more rose tinted your glasses get for some reason.

For me it is the other way around, and I am kind of disappointed to find that it isn't OK (Paul excepted) to say that the present is good, and the future full of hope. The worst thing that could happen to me, and I am sure I am not alone, is a return to my childhood.

[Ms Piggy]

For me it is the other way around, and I am kind of disappointed to find that it isn't OK (Paul excepted) to say that the present is good, and the future full of hope. The worst thing that could happen to me, and I am sure I am not alone, is a return to my childhood.
Do you mean that is b/c you had a 'difficult' childhood?

It's all relative in the end isn't it. I mean I think there are different challenges today - I guess you could never say that it's easier or more difficult now, it's just different.

[Motu]

It was very interesting to read the written account of my mother's early life,that she left us to read after she died - difficult would be an understatment,but it was all she knew...until she moved into the real world.I can understand why she cut her childhood out of her life and never mentioned it to her children,that was her concern and had no bearing on us - no way was she going to pass this onto another generation.Just incase you get the wrong idea - there was no sexual misconduct here,but the stock whip was not just used to get work out of the four legged animals.Her last words she wrote of her story were - I wonder what kids of today would of done,I bet they would of stood up to him,or maybe killed him...she obviously didn't have a happy childhood.

Lots of skellitons in my father's cupboard too - illegitimet children were often brought up in the family,and some of his uncles and aunts were really cousins,so much so that his grandfather wouldn't let his daughter take her child away with her - ''she's mine,I brought her up in my house as my own child'' ,common in those days.

[James Deuce]

Do you mean that is b/c you had a 'difficult' childhood?

It's all relative in the end isn't it. I mean I think there are different challenges today - I guess you could never say that it's easier or more difficult now, it's just different.

Everyone has a difficult childhood. It's all about how the people around you help you meet those challenges.

My main thing is I have a psych disorder bordering on complusion, in that I have to fill my idle time with reading and digesting information. There's never been more access to information in human history. It's a good time for mental cases like me to be alive.

[scumdog]

I have no idea what you're on but I want some. Alcohol and Nicotine are drugs and they have been abused at terrifying levels in NZ. Family and domestic violence used to be an institutional right, now at the very least it is OK for a woman to end a relationship with a violent man and expect some level of community support.

I respectfully submit that the older you get the more rose tinted your glasses get for some reason.

For me it is the other way around, and I am kind of disappointed to find that it isn't OK (Paul excepted) to say that the present is good, and the future full of hope. The worst thing that could happen to me, and I am sure I am not alone, is a return to my childhood.

The pertinent word is INCREASE in violence,dishonesty and drugs.

The older I get the more cynical I get (so everybody keeps telling me, the only 'rose-tinted' glasses I wear are the ones my wife tells me I must be wearing when I pay her a compliment).

Women use to end relationships in the past too - vis my mother-in-law, walked out with four kids, oldest barely a teenager and no DPB then. :disapint:

I don't have to wish to return to my childhood - hell, I'm still there!! :bleh:

Seriously though, life WAS cruisier 30+ years ago and down here it is still not too bad :cool:

Stay cool dude :calm:

[Gixxer]

:blank:
Classic Gixxer!!!
Admit it... theres a few of us ya love!!! :shake:

Mmmmm South African Beer! :love2:

Yeah, got lots of SA mates, love that boerewors :beer: NZBEER, or that Canadian moosehead. never tried any SA beer

[Paul in NZ]

Hmmm... It appeared cruisier in that certain aspects of life were OK such as the rifle thing. Used to do the same thing myself. Went hunting on my Norton once and got pulled over for a wof check and never a word about the .303 Jungle Carbine over my shoulder with mag and bolt in place (unloaded but how could he tell).

However, Jim2 has a point. For some people (ie ones that didn't go hunting and drink beer) life was not very nice at all!

Go back a bit further and life was anything BUT cruisey. My mother grew up in a tent in a scrub work camp during the depression. She wore the family boots to school when she was big enough.

Experiences of the depression, the war and illness (antibiotics date from the war) scarred lives for a generation. Chronic drinking and smoking were part of everyday life as well as violence towards anyone that was different or unable to defend themselves. Gay men for one. (let's not hijack this thread down that track OK)

I had a shit hot childhood with loving parents (mum even helped me put the barrels back on my 5T when my arm was in a sling from crashing my BSA!

We had a ball doing stuff that would have me arrested today BUT a hell of a lot of people didn't. We should not loose sight of that I guess. If only there was a way to combine the best of the 2??

Paul N

[jrandom]

THREAD HIJACK ALERT!

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Went hunting on my Norton once and got pulled over for a wof check and never a word about the .303 Jungle Carbine over my shoulder

Drool. I still don't have a Smelly of any flavour. There was a Mk 5 like yours, wot I particularly fancy since I plan on *using* it, in the T&E a while back for $180 or so, didn't last long, I'm kicking myself.

If you ever run out of space for the old Enfield and want a good home at a fair price, let me know first...

[Edit: Actually, based on the bike you were riding, that was quite a while back, wasn't it? The meaningfulness of my comment therefore becomes predicated on whether you still happen to have it somewhere, of course...]

[Gixxer]

Bugga... will see if i can talk one into gettin on here for you... the bastard was here on monday/tuesday tooo :doh:
(i'm still recovering)
I will endevour to sort something for you when he gets home...next thurs i think.. he lives in boronia
Have you been aroung the great ocean road or up the hill behind warburton yet? (cant remember its name)
some fun roads!

It has been pis$ing down over here, my wife wants to do the Great Ocean 'Together' what ever that means, so that counts out the bike ride down the great ocean unitll we have done that little 'bonding' 'doing things together husband and wife cr@p'

As for intergrating into a foreign society, I think the wife and I have done ok. yeah sure Oz and NZ are not that different.
I watched every AFL game when I moved over hear and found it quite a good game, I have choosen to support St Kilda, as they are the local team in our area. (still tossing up about supporting Collingwood) I go around calling everyone 'mate' which my wife thinks is funny. and I have taken up wearing 'Thongs'. intergrating is easy, you just need an open mind.

[Blakamin]

It has been pis$ing down over here, my wife wants to do the Great Ocean 'Together' what ever that means, so that counts out the bike ride down the great ocean unitll we have done that little 'bonding' 'doing things together husband and wife cr@p'

As for intergrating into a foreign society, I think the wife and I have done ok. yeah sure Oz and NZ are not that different.
I watched every AFL game when I moved over hear and found it quite a good game, I have choosen to support St Kilda, as they are the local team in our area. (still tossing up about supporting Collingwood) I go around calling everyone 'mate' which my wife thinks is funny. and I have taken up wearing 'Thongs'. intergrating is easy, you just need an open mind.
Great Ocean Road should only be open to bikes :angry2:

and dont...DONT supprot collingwood... nobody will talk to ya... they call the magpies coz they're scavenging little pricks...(the fans) and they've won 2 finals in the last 40 years!
My teacher in the last year of primary school used to play for the saints
personally, I'm an Essendon supporter and I talk to Saints fans... talk to everyone bar collingwood fans... nobody likes collingwood unless their fathers did.... dont make that mistake

[Ms Piggy]

Everyone has a difficult childhood. It's all about how the people around you help you meet those challenges.

My main thing is I have a psych disorder bordering on complusion, in that I have to fill my idle time with reading and digesting information. There's never been more access to information in human history. It's a good time for mental cases like me to be alive.
Sorry I didn't mean that to sound as patronising as it did once I read it (just now)! :o

Although there are degrees of difficulty, within childhood, me thinks.

[Blakamin]

bordering on complusion, in that I have to fill my idle time with reading and digesting information. There's never been more access to information in human history. It's a good time for mental cases like me to be alive.
know that feeling.. i cant sit and do nothing... the library has run out of books, I cant sleep without reading...
Once, at bandca... melbourne, i read the A-K phonebook coz i hadnt slept in 2 days and had nothing else... the interweb is fantastic! specially with a laptop!

[Gixxer]

Great Ocean Road should only be open to bikes :angry2:

and dont...DONT supprot collingwood... nobody will talk to ya... they call the magpies coz they're scavenging little pricks...(the fans) and they've won 2 finals in the last 40 years!
My teacher in the last year of primary school used to play for the saints
personally, I'm an Essendon supporter and I talk to Saints fans... talk to everyone bar collingwood fans... nobody likes collingwood unless their fathers did.... dont make that mistake

Yeah I have heard that alot, the only reason I was thinking about the magpie's is that my wife's relations over here support them. but I watched all of the Staints and bombers games from September on, so I think I will support the saints. :Punk:
I even have a footy ball now, and played a quick game in Monbulk on Grandfinal day in between quarters.
Cheers

[Blakamin]

Yeah I have heard that alot, the only reason I was thinking about the magpie's is that my wife's relations over here support them.
QUICK... DIVORCE!.... bloody 'pies :angry2:
2 of my brothers support 'em... lucky i dont talk to one of them :)
sounds like you're intergrating better than me... bloody rugby! :weep: cant stand it!

[jrandom]

Everyone has a difficult childhood. It's all about how the people around you help you meet those challenges.

Indeed. Everyone does; some have it worse than others. Some grow up being sexually exploited by multiple members of their family before they even get to puberty, being beaten to an extent which, were it perpetrated upon one adult by another, would result in non-trivial jail time, being ignored, emotionally tormented, forced into self-loathing, and only provided with the utter, bare minimums of survival's necessities. Spending large chunks of their subsequent adult existence struggling with what have become hard-wired psychological inabilities to function, they form the real, unpleasant, smelly basis for the bargain basement of every psychiatric professional's client list.

But, sure, nobody has the perfect childhood. I've learned to be grateful for mine, though. I came out of it with nothing worse than a distaste for authority, a rather strange personality type, and a heavy skew toward stereotypical male insensitivity.

[Paul in NZ]

THREAD HIJACK ALERT!

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Drool. I still don't have a Smelly of any flavour. There was a Mk 5 like yours, wot I particularly fancy since I plan on *using* it, in the T&E a while back for $180 or so, didn't last long, I'm kicking myself.

If you ever run out of space for the old Enfield and want a good home at a fair price, let me know first...

[Edit: Actually, based on the bike you were riding, that was quite a while back, wasn't it? The meaningfulness of my comment therefore becomes predicated on whether you still happen to have it somewhere, of course...]

Ha ha!

Nah! Long gone. It was OK as bush gun and would go for a pretty penny now. I moved to a 8 x 57 Mauser which was a bloody cannon but if you did hit anything, it stayed hit. It was already sporterised so I was happy to stick a scope on it but I could never bring myself to do the scope thing on the carbine.

Paul N

[scumdog]

THREAD HIJACK ALERT!

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Drool. I still don't have a Smelly of any flavour. There was a Mk 5 like yours, wot I particularly fancy since I plan on *using* it, in the T&E a while back for $180 or so, didn't last long, I'm kicking myself.

If you ever run out of space for the old Enfield and want a good home at a fair price, let me know first...

[Edit: Actually, based on the bike you were riding, that was quite a while back, wasn't it? The meaningfulness of my comment therefore becomes predicated on whether you still happen to have it somewhere, of course...]

Got a SMLEy from an old farmer a few years ago, said "take your misuss out for a meal and it's yours, that's my price". It's a great old weapon, mint barrel and ex-drill purpose but still fully wooded and I've got a few goats with it.

The old man used a Mk 5 (or is No. 5?) in Malaya, reckoned it was only a little better than an M1 carbine due to the muzzle-blast and inherently poor accuracy, said a No4 was the go, - or a Bren!! also said the Browning 5 shot with 00 buckshot was a mean weapon that was vastly under-rated.

[Lou Girardin]

If Australia converts to Islam, will sheep have to wear burqua's?

[James Deuce]

Sorry I didn't mean that to sound as patronising as it did once I read it (just now)! :o

Although there are degrees of difficulty, within childhood, me thinks.

It wasn't patronising at all - I owe you a beer for making you feel bad. :drinknsin

[Jackrat]

THREAD HIJACK ALERT!

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Drool. I still don't have a Smelly of any flavour. There was a Mk 5 like yours, wot I particularly fancy since I plan on *using* it, in the T&E a while back for $180 or so, didn't last long, I'm kicking myself.

If you ever run out of space for the old Enfield and want a good home at a fair price, let me know first...

[Edit: Actually, based on the bike you were riding, that was quite a while back, wasn't it? The meaningfulness of my comment therefore becomes predicated on whether you still happen to have it somewhere, of course...]
http://gibbsrifle.com/
Go to their on line cattledog then to their Historical remakes.
Then you can have a real drool,just like me :yes:
Also check out their sport spec' rifles if you would like one in .308 with nickle finish.Or how about 45-70 <_< :blink:

[Ms Piggy]

It wasn't patronising at all - I owe you a beer for making you feel bad. :drinknsin
Ok then! :apint: I'm glad.

[Skyryder]

You are right, and it does depend on interpretation. I think you've taken the ultra conservative view.

The Westminster system is not a perfect system, despite a long history and tradition, and it most certainly does not entertain the illusion of free speech or individual rights. The freedom of action of the state in relation to international standing and issues, and the rights of government and corporate bodies take precedence over individual rights. New Zealand does not have an independant charter or a constitution of it's own. We have adopted someone else's irrespective of whether or not it fits, which it palpably doesn't given the level of dissatisfaction evident in a wide range of NZ society. If we are independant why retain a Governer General, an archaic role designed to make sure that the wild colonials toe an irrelevant line?

I believe that our society has changed out of all recognition in the last 20 years, and the laws and regulations of the UK and the Commonwealth do not reflect NZ's changing place in the world. We have certainly been economically disadvantaged by our attitude toward Commonwealth trading partner priorities, and most certainly have little in common with the UK, other than a fascination with a minority oval ball sport. Ignore the fact that we have diverged from our historical base significantly and you risk a case of Ostrich Syndrome.

I am all for managed change. However the nature of NZ politics prevents managed and structured change thanks to a 3 year electoral term. I've worked in Government and the cycle goes; Election, Break all the promises, define the real agenda, organise the budget to implement the agenda, begin implementation, cease implementation to begin telling the next round promises that will be broken at the next election. That suits a Constitutional Mornarchy down to the ground because nothing ever changes or if it does it gets so FUBARed that it actually harms the people it was designed to help. Constitutional and Electoral reform shouldn't be a negative process. It should bear the promise of a unique and dynamic society rather than a hidebound backward looking conservative nostalgia-fest.

CSL - define the word culture within the frame of reference that it has been bandied about to describe the make up and structure of a society and its dynamic nature and you will have a difficult task. Culture is one of those words with an assumed dennotative meaning, when in fact the connotations defeat an attempt at definition, particularly at an individual level. Dig deeper on that one and you find that everybody has an idea, though it will be vague and wildly different.



You raise some interesting ideas. The Westminster system as you rightly state is not the perfect system but it does offer one significant advantage over a republican model. That is the role of the Govenor General. Not many people know and again you have correctly stated the Queen's representitive is the Commander in Chief. All military sevicemen swear alleagence to the Queen and not to the Government. The Govenor Genearl's prime function is to oversee the role of the elected government and that it functions according to law. As subjects of the Queen the Govenor General is the only person who is able to act in our interests should a dictatorship try and establish itself. Yea I know he did not help the Fijiean Govenment when Speight and his cronies staged a coup but this had more to do with the Govenor Geneal being a native to Fiji than his office.
Without the GG you need a President or an upper house. As the upper houses tend to be conservitive in mind if not in body, look what they did to Whitlam, then the other option is a President either to be elected or appointed. Either way in my view not as satisfactory as the Queens Rep who is only nomintaed by the Government.

The fact that our system can evolve to the needs of the times is another measure of its support. Whether this evolutuon is for the good or ill is subject to debate but that is what political evolution creates.

Politicians of both our system and the a Republican system can still lie cheat and do whatever untill election time and in this no amount of changing from one to another will eradicate.

For my mind there has been no argument, as yet, that has prompted me to seriously advocate a change in how our Parliment operates. However unless untill someone can come up with some bloody sound ideas how we will be better off than a new flag and a grande upper house that will be paid for by you and I, I shall continue to advocate the status quo.

OK so I have got off the beaten track but this is what happens when the flag is mentioned among other things.


Skyryder

[Indiana_Jones]

What a load of bull, you can't move into a nation and expect them to catair (spelling) for your needs, the western world has turned into a bunch of girls where we are afraid to offend other races, and they know it so they take advantage of the fact. I hate PC!!!!!!!! :bash:

-Indy

[James Deuce]

You raise some interesting ideas. The Westminster system as you rightly state is not the perfect system but it does offer one significant advantage over a republican model. That is the role of the Govenor General. Not many people know and again you have correctly stated the Queen's representitive is the Commander in Chief. All military sevicemen swear alleagence to the Queen and not to the Government. The Govenor Genearl's prime function is to oversee the role of the elected government and that it functions according to law. As subjects of the Queen the Govenor General is the only person who is able to act in our interests should a dictatorship try and establish itself. Yea I know he did not help the Fijiean Govenment when Speight and his cronies staged a coup but this had more to do with the Govenor Geneal being a native to Fiji than his office.
Without the GG you need a President or an upper house. As the upper houses tend to be conservitive in mind if not in body, look what they did to Whitlam, then the other option is a President either to be elected or appointed. Either way in my view not as satisfactory as the Queens Rep who is only nomintaed by the Government.

The fact that our system can evolve to the needs of the times is another measure of its support. Whether this evolutuon is for the good or ill is subject to debate but that is what political evolution creates.

Politicians of both our system and the a Republican system can still lie cheat and do whatever untill election time and in this no amount of changing from one to another will eradicate.

For my mind there has been no argument, as yet, that has prompted me to seriously advocate a change in how our Parliment operates. However unless untill someone can come up with some bloody sound ideas how we will be better off than a new flag and a grande upper house that will be paid for by you and I, I shall continue to advocate the status quo.

OK so I have got off the beaten track but this is what happens when the flag is mentioned among other things.


Skyryder

The NZ Army has no Royal Warrant and reports to the Prime Ministers office. The only Arms of NZ's Defence Force that have a direct chain of command through the Gvernor General to the Queen are the Air Force and Navy, which are both vastly under strength given our huge coastline (longer than the continental US coastline) and our reliance on shipping and air transport. The NZ Army has recently been re-equipped to change it's role into Mobile Infantry, rather than its previous engineering and logistics bias that make more sense if you were to provide aid to a population in a country plagued by every disaster known to man. I don;t believe it has a sinister purpose, though that could easily change.

NZ Doesn't need an Upper house. We do need an independent judiciary, whose role will also include mediation, adjudication, and moderation of the lawmaking process. I would support a supreme court that was made up of mulitple disciplines including the legal profession, rather than maintaining the outmoded concept that only lawyers can make laws.

We also need a government system that relies more on people whose primary loyalty is to NZ, not to an archaic constitutional monarchy who has no political power or influence.

[Deano]

Kiwis I find are pretty racist but not of the intentional kind -



I find that pretty rich coming from a Brit - most Brits I know hate the French and the Germans with a vengeance.

And if a Muslim is able to wear a Burqa during a trial or for a NZ photo driver's licence, shouldn't a rastafarian be able to smoke a joint without fear of arrest...I doubt it.

[Jackrat]

I work with a South African and an Iraqi,both top blokes.
They've both had similar negative exspereinces here as I had when I first moved to OZ.Little things like not having your Qualifications recognized,only being able to get employment in certain industrys,constant BS jokes that are anything but funny after the tenth time.
I have no problems understanding why some folks have a hard time intergrating,some of us don't make it easy.
I heard OZys saying they HATED FUCKIN KIWI'S a number of times,I've heard similar things said within ear shot of imigrants here.
I had one guy spit the dummy big time because I got a promotion he considered his,the fact I'd worked for the same company 12 years(BHP)and he'd been with them 2-3years didn't come into it,He was Australian and I was JUST ANOTHER FUCKING KIWI.
We're pretty much the same.
We wonder why they don't intergrate,Why would they ? :rolleyes:

[Motu]

I used to know an East German - he jumped the wall when it was still up,left knowing he would never see his family again.He couldn't work at his trade in New Zealand,but he was as happy as Larry,no matter what happened to him in New Zealand he was better off.