AMCC Advanced Rider Training Day January 19th

[Keystone19]

Auckland Motorcycle Club is running another Advanced Riding Training Day. This day is open for all riders who want to improve their riding skills both on and off the track.

Location is Pukekohe Raceway.

Expert instructors are available on the day to assist with on track skills as well as suspension set up. These include Paul Pavletich and Vince Sharpe.

There is also a Theory night held Thursday Jauary 17th at the AMCC clubrooms in Ellerslie.

Registration form attached.

Look forward to seeing you all there.

[Shaun]

Auckland Motorcycle Club is running another Advanced Riding Training Day. This day is open for all riders who want to improve their riding skills both on and off the track.

Location is Pukekohe Raceway.

Expert instructors are available on the day to assist with on track skills as well as suspension set up. These include Paul Pavletich and Vince Sharpe.

There is also a Theory night held Thursday Jauary 17th at the AMCC clubrooms in Ellerslie.

Registration form attached.

Look forward to seeing you all there.



So who and what makes this a safe track to train people on then? That track is fucked

[PeteJ]

Well, Shaun, with the greatest of respect to your abilities, age, experience on track and onroad, injuries, and training to be a trainer, AMCC has:

1. People who have been Ministry of Transport certificated to train at advanced level,

2. People who have ben tutoring advanced rider training for more years than you have been riding (maybe including whoever first called you "Gremlin"; I dunno), and

3. The longest history of any motorcycling organisation with this track.

As to the circuit, yes, it has its dangers. Instructing people about the dangers of the circuit is a major part of the AMCC motivation to instruct at Pukekohe.

If you care to read the worldwide literature on rider training, you will discover that there is a school of thought of some 80 years' standing that the best venues to instruct are the ones that are difficult to ride on.

Perhaps if you share your reasons for asking your question, we can answer in a way that might make more sense to the public. Are you asking because you are newly setting yourself as a trainer and are trying to denigrate what you see as competition?

[sAsLEX]

If you care to read the worldwide literature on rider training, you will discover that there is a school of thought of some 80 years' standing that the best venues to instruct are the ones that are difficult to ride on.


That maybe so, but I bet there are few schools of thought that suggest training in a dangerous environment?


How many of our friends and colleagues have we seen seriously injured due to the woeful state of the safety elements of Puke?

[Shaun]

Well, Shaun, with the greatest of respect to your abilities, age, experience on track and onroad, injuries, and training to be a trainer, AMCC has:

1. People who have been Ministry of Transport certificated to train at advanced level,

2. People who have ben tutoring advanced rider training for more years than you have been riding (maybe including whoever first called you "Gremlin"; I dunno), and

3. The longest history of any motorcycling organisation with this track.

As to the circuit, yes, it has its dangers. Instructing people about the dangers of the circuit is a major part of the AMCC motivation to instruct at Pukekohe.

If you care to read the worldwide literature on rider training, you will discover that there is a school of thought of some 80 years' standing that the best venues to instruct are the ones that are difficult to ride on.

Perhaps if you share your reasons for asking your question, we can answer in a way that might make more sense to the public. Are you asking because you are newly setting yourself as a trainer and are trying to denigrate what you see as competition?



rrrr No Petej, that track is very dangerous from the left hander after the hair pin untill the middle of the front straight!!!!! and one of the instructors you mention saw the crash where a man now lives in wheel chair

As fas as trying to denigrate your efforts, PULL YOUR HEAD IN- I am and was genuinelly concerned for peoples safety, I am sure that the customer base will make there own choice of where to go and who with no matter what you or I could say

And your point 1 and 3 shows what a joke the job is, as if you have been the leeding club with this track, WHY HAVE YOU NOT MADE IT SAFER? also, if you think that Ministry of transport trained people are going to make our riders safer, perhaps you could get the same ones to teach there own drivers how to actually drive a car safely please!

No Distrespect to Vince and crew intended here, just the club

[Shaun]

That maybe so, but I bet there are few schools of thought that suggest training in a dangerous environment?


How many of our friends and colleagues have we seen seriously injured due to the woeful state of the safety elements of Puke?



EXACTUAALY

If I was the, that track would never get approvale to hold a race meeting


and that comes from some one who is prepared to race the roads, which are far more dangerous than Puke, but proper professional race tracks, have no exscuse to be dangerous,

[PeteJ]

Shaun, thanks for reassuring about your motives: we are all intent on helping safety of all riders. That's why I have been conducting advanced rider training courses since 1979, including running race riding schools in the 1980s at which among others Richard Scott and Simon Crafer instructed. That's close to a 30-year commitment in actually carrying out training, including completing courses in how to teach.

And, as you know, seeing the improvement in rider abilities and attitude, sometimes minute by minute, is pretty gratifying.

Now, about Pukekohe. Auckland Motorcycle Club is well aware of safety questions with this circuit, as a club probably more aware of more issues than any individual rider, since everyone reports their own concerns to the club.

But Puke is the closest circuit to Auckland, with all the demands for use that that brings, These demands that riders will want to ride there are not restricted to just AMCC - as you know, AMCC is not the only organisation that runs rider days there, and there are always bikes at open days, as well ("Mad Sunday" equivalents, if you will).

As I said earlier, our motivations include trying to assist riders learn how to use this circuit as safely as possible.

Who knows what Hampton Downs will bring.

[Shaun]

Now, about Pukekohe. Auckland Motorcycle Club is well aware of safety questions with this circuit, as a club probably more aware of more issues than any individual rider, since everyone reports their own concerns to the club.

If this is true then, why carry on using it? And if this is true and the club recognises it, why is our MNZ CEO being an instructor there?

But Puke is the closest circuit to Auckland, with all the demands for use that that brings, These demands that riders will want to ride there are not restricted to just AMCC - as you know, AMCC is not the only organisation that runs rider days there, and there are always bikes at open days, as well ("Mad Sunday" equivalents, if you will).

So does this make it OK to use a very unsafe Known to be track then, just because may?

As I said earlier, our motivations include trying to assist riders learn how to use this circuit as safely as possible.

I am sure it is, ( applause to all of you ) but that track needs to stop now, and the AMCC need to help stop it, and so does our MNZ as far as I am concerned

Who knows what Hampton Downs will bring.

A bunch a reving petrol heads having fun in a safe enviroment would be my guess after taking a big walk around there last week.

[PeteJ]

A bunch a reving petrol heads having fun in a safe enviroment would be my guess after taking a big walk around there last week.

Heh heh heh - sounds like all of us, huh? Let's hope.

And it'll doubtless have its own safety questions, too, which will show up with use, just as every circuit (and road) has. After all, SH2 Maramarua to Mangatawhiri, the press' favourite "killer road", leads there from the east.

[Shaun]

Heh heh heh - sounds like all of us, huh? Let's hope.

And it'll doubtless have its own safety questions, too, which will show up with use, just as every circuit (and road) has. After all, SH2 Maramarua to Mangatawhiri, the press' favourite "killer road", leads there from the east.


But what about the awnsers to the questions I asked you above please Petej

[PeteJ]

Sorry, Shaun, I thought you might have drawn the inference that Hampton Downs, SH2, and Pukekohe, just like everywhere else, are by and large as safe as the rider makes them.

Your very first succinct comment on this thread make clear that you personally are opposed to Pukekohe Park Raceway being used for anything at all. I do not doubt your personal sincerity on this point.

If one could make a risk-free motorcycling environment, then the trainers' assessment of a rider's hazard assessment would be impossible. And every advanced road riders' course I am aware of has a requirement for formal hazard assessment practice.

Risk is an interesting concept, say when applied to motorcycling: at one end of the scale you will have no risk of being injured by falling off if you never get on, and at the other end if you intend suicide and ride accordingly hurt will likely happen. Every rider every day makes choices about where on that continuum they want to be. Trainers should be helping them to be able to make informed choices.

[Shaun]

If there was no carrot daggled to entice people to this track, the risk would not exsist! But people and clubs would make no money either!

Thanks for your faith in my honesty!


At who's risk is this training assesment done at? the riders I would imagine, unless you get a fine or penalty after the ambulance has pelled some one of the walls there if shite happened, like it has MANY TIMES!

Your last comment, is like saying, if there were no drugs, there would be no drug dealers

[PeteJ]

We agree on many things, Shaun. However, we may need to differ on the relative priorities of chickens and eggs.

I guess my final remark on our little threadjack is that riders should have choices, and that applies to training courses as much as anything.

In the USA, lots of riders do several training courses eg Keith Code's schools, then a course at Freddie Spencer's, then some track-owner-run one, and so on. More perspectives can only help in informing for choices.

Further sidetrack, but a further point of agreement, I suspect, between you and me: In most of the professions, continuing education is an accepted necessity. It would be good if we could accept that for ourselves as motorcyclists. But...I would hate to see compulsion, because then we'd end up with unacceptable levels of control and direction from people who know damn-all about it.

Cheers

Pete

[Shaun]

Glad to see you have awnsered all my serious questions on here RE the safety aspect of Pukekohe for all the customers that you have advertised to on this free web site petej, I am sure they to will appreciate your awnsers.

Sorry mate, but a word game was not what we were doing here, we were having a very serious safety issue discussion, and that was not a thread Jack! it was a challenge from me to you guys for running such an event at a well known extremelly dangerous track:Police:

Even Paul Pav, our CEO of MNZ, will not awnser my direct questions to him about the safety of the track in generall, put to him today.

It is 2007, time to move on

[Shaun]

PS pete, how much do you get paid per day of instrunction there by the AMCC? or do you honestly do it for free because of your passion for teaching people how to be better and safer

[Mort]

I'm with Shaun on this...

Advanaced training (such as California Superbike school which you mentioned) works by instruction and a pupil pushing his limits. This is best done in a safe environment and works best on short technical tracks with safe run off areas. This allows the student rider to explore his limits and the techniques being taught in safety.

Pukekhoe is far too fast and has very little run off (and has other issues) ... Students will not regard it as safe and will not be encouraged to push and learn from the training given. I would question if the "Advanced Training" would be effective at this track.

Having done quite a bit of track training I would say it is a totally unsuitable track regardless of the quality of instruction.

[Shaun]

HERE IS YOUR SAFETY ISSUES FIXED

IT IS IN US$ amd imperial

The Airfence Bike sections are about 6'6" I believe, and you can figure about $1100-$1200 per section depending on how many you buy, exchange rates, the straps to secure them etc...[/QUO

So around $1200 NZ$ ( With bulk purchase) and we have one professional Air fence bail, DAM, that is so cheep compared to some ones life, but perhaps we could get the ACC to pay for it, so they do not need to pay for peoples hospital bills and loss of earnings and other shite

[Shaun]

I'm with Shaun on this...

Advanaced training (such as California Superbike school which you mentioned) works by instruction and a pupil pushing his limits. This is best done in a safe environment and works best on short technical tracks with safe run off areas. This allows the student rider to explore his limits and the techniques being taught in safety.

Pukekhoe is far too fast and has very little run off (and has other issues) ... Students will not regard it as safe and will not be encouraged to push and learn from the training given. I would question if the "Advanced Training" would be effective at this track.

Having done quite a bit of track training I would say it is a totally unsuitable track regardless of the quality of instruction.



Thanks for speaking up, to many soft cocks around that will not speak the truth, because they are scared of being called a pussie or a big mouth or what ever

Cheers

[Drew]

You're being quite superior there Shaun, your opinion is yours and totally respected, but it is not infallable as your tone seems to suggest.

Pukie has taken lives and serious injury, but when teaching racers is it not possible that to make them aware of dangers, then how to minimise them a valuable lesson they should learn?

I think Pukie is a fuckin wicked track, totally about how far you're willing to push the envelope. I would have expected someone with an Isle of man title to his name would feel the same.


Just me not being a pussy, and speaking my mind.

[Shaun]

You're being quite superior there Shaun, your opinion is yours and totally respected, but it is not infallable as your tone seems to suggest.

Pukie has taken lives and serious injury, but when teaching racers is it not possible that to make them aware of dangers, then how to minimise them a valuable lesson they should learn?

I think Pukie is a fuckin wicked track, totally about how far you're willing to push the envelope. I would have expected someone with an Isle of man title to his name would feel the same.


Just me not being a pussy, and speaking my mind.



Infallable wow! Actually regually the Opposite- Fact!

Superior,Maybe? ( IF that is the way you see my actions, and the way I am coming across, I am sorry, that was not what I was trying to be or do here)

But really, just trying to stop the injuries that Keep happening there, ( AS you yourself know 100%) and if the old so called has beens like myself do not speak up or help, who Will, The AMCC.? WHY would they, not so So they can put more money into there bank account, or buy more club rooms etc MMmm,

Teaching riders how to ride is one thing, but teaching riders to ride on a well known exteremely dangerous track is very risky ( ie, ACCIDENTS HAPPEN )

And my way of minimising the accident rate, is to eliminate doing profit making buisness in such an enviroment, hence my attempt to share my opinion, and the riders can make there own opinion, with a little extra input apart from by just rev heads.

As far as the Isle of man title bit goes, Does that mean it is all ok for me to go and go stupid on the public road as well, because I have won a dam road race???

Good on ya for speaking up Drew

[Drew]

Infallable wow! Actually regually the Opposite- Fact!

Superior,Maybe? ( IF that is the way you see my actions, and the way I am coming across, I am sorry, that was not what I was trying to be or do here)

But really, just trying to stop the injuries that Keep happening there, ( AS you yourself know 100%) and if the old so called has beens like myself do not speak up or help, who Will, The AMCC.? WHY would they, not so So they can put more money into there bank account, or buy more club rooms etc MMmm,

Teaching riders how to ride is one thing, but teaching riders to ride on a well known exteremely dangerous track is very risky ( ie, ACCIDENTS HAPPEN )

And my way of minimising the accident rate, is to eliminate doing profit making buisness in such an enviroment, hence my attempt to share my opinion, and the riders can make there own opinion, with a little extra input apart from by just rev heads.

As far as the Isle of man title bit goes, Does that mean it is all ok for me to go and go stupid on the public road as well, because I have won a dam road race???

Good on ya for speaking up DrewI'm sure the AMCC are making a decent sized deposit in what I'm informed to be an already very handsome bank balance from these training days, but the price per person is acceptable, and it's more track time for me:eek:

Proffiting from deliberately endangering others I would never condone, and would take a similar aproach as yourself to get it squashed, but that's not what I see to be going on here.

Might be a bit naive of me, but I'd like to believe they are putting the riders safety at the top of the list.

I was concerned however that the instructors are not wandering around the pits giving advice, those needing tuition have to seek it out themselves. I ended up doin basic suspension changes for people at the track, which I'm happy to do, (and got quite a kick when all four people came back to me saying it was an improvement and easier to ride) but surely the club can supply someone more apt at it than I.

[Shaun]

Hi Again Drew.

I do not believe at all, nor am I trying to say! that any one is Deliberately endangering any one at all here as you have agreed.:banana: Thankyou for clarifying that here mate:cool:

As well as I know that the instructors most Definately have the right intensions morals etc! :2thumbsup in fact I honestly believe that is why they are there, apart from being old hoons, and brought up the money issue as a way of loading the ballance facture in favour of flagging it, I was hoping that bringing it up, might help/make, parties look at it in a different way:beer:


Yea mate, I do believe it is an unsafe race track, and no one should be earning a cent from a dangerous shit hole enviroment with what they are doing in it, and ACCIDENTS do happen, and Pukekohe is Pukekohe with a long old History of fun:2thumbsup, as well as a lot of pain and injury sadness:calm:

My Distaste truly is the enviroment, and so what, yea ya all might have to drive 2.7---3..5 hours to a much safer enviroment, Taupo or HAMPTON D closer, when it is done, but for now so what if longer?? % wise, you will be going home:chase:

As far as the guys getting around offering advice, they were probally a little bit to occupied doing things to help run the day etc to do that as well, shame really from that aspect as Drew- Paul -Vince -and others do Know shit loads between them.

No problem at all with the Club or anyone making good money at all for the work they have done there over the years, But would much rather prefer to see it stopped or at least, Genuine Air fence padding purcased ( ie) like what is used in the usa AMA at doggie track points.

I' ll check back some time but have said what i wanted to say about it for now really, as well as I know a few people with similar race history related to me, are involved here with brains:buggerd: And they know
like me, ( And many others) that if you want some thing bad enough you work harder go further move more or what ever it takes to get it,

AMCC move on please, you have done awsome awsome work over the years, ( Well every one can complain ) but please shut it down and build for the future, I am sure long term it will be % wise safer and better off for the living world as well as your selves as a Club with your history, and the passion form the Crew who have helped make it happen year after year>

Yea logistcs, RE running costs getting the crew there etc, is gunna be a lot more invovled, but that is buisness and really just another challenge:wari: another % game, just like life:2thumbsup

[twinshock750]

Glad to see you have awnsered all my serious questions on here RE the safety aspect of Pukekohe for all the customers that you have advertised to on this free web site petej, I am sure they to will appreciate your awnsers.

Sorry mate, but a word game was not what we were doing here, we were having a very serious safety issue discussion, and that was not a thread Jack! it was a challenge from me to you guys for running such an event at a well known extremelly dangerous track:Police:

Even Paul Pav, our CEO of MNZ, will not awnser my direct questions to him about the safety of the track in generall, put to him today.

It is 2007, time to move on

An interesting thread!

So, Shaun...

1) I take from reading this thread and your obvious vigourous anti Pukekohe stance, that when the Nationals roll into Pukekohe in March 2008 we won't be seeing you or any of the riders you support there at all, as it is too dangerous for them to ride there?

2) I'm the first to admit that I have raced on safer tracks (and worse also - Whangarei?). But I've also read some interesting comments through this thread and elsewhere on the forum about how many riders have been killed or permanently maimed at Pukekohe. By my count on the last 6-7 years I've come up with 1 that can probably really be counted (November 06) and 3 that people probably do get added in but cannot be truly counted due to extenuating circumstances. 1 was no crash padding on an open test day (padding would have tripped the bike long before it hit anything solid), one appears to be mechanical failure while in straight line (sidecar), 1 was where I believe the rider was trying to ride around a known mechanical fault (no third gear). There is another one where the rider hurt his back, walked out of hospital and I believe subsequently hurt his back again permanently doing something else unrelated.

Note: I'm more than happy to be proved wrong if I have missed any. I prefer to work in fact not heresay and knowing the facts helps the situation.

Remember also, Rainey hurt himself in 1993 in a gravel trap and didn't hit anything.

3) Is running a track day and providing rider instruction at Pukekohe (or anywhere else) a dangerous thing? Well yes, I suppose if you get out of bed, you can hurt yourself.

But lets remember something else. Each rider here is NOT doing something stupid on the road with oncoming traffic, cops, blind drivers, gravel, no ambulance, cheese cutter median barriers and all the other risks. They are probably learning skills about bike handling, braking etc that they will take back onto the road. Some may go racing, many will come back rather than do the Coro loop and the inherent risks of open road riding.

I think despite the perceived risk of Pukekohe it is FAR safer than trying to do it anywhere on the road at LEGAL speeds.

Most are also doing it at speeds which are considerably less than most racers (well for the non racing ones).

4) Regarding doing rider training At pukekohe # 2: Is also probably why there are different speed/experience groups and traveling marshalls.

5) Shaun, I'm sure you have considered the conflict of interest that could be drawn by less well meaning people than you and I, due to your close involvement with another TDO. I also hope that in your "in the public Interest" /altruistic streak has meant that you have also voiced your concerns with Kiwitrackdays who also use Pukekohe for Trackdays.

6) I note from attending an ART day this year, and prior to that the Track Time days at Pukekohe, as well as racing over the years, that the AMCC run the underlying operation as per their race meeting spec. Ie full life support ambulance, MNZ permit, Clerk of course, full machine and ride gear check, flag marshalls, plus ALL the crash padding the club members have sweated on and drunk thousands of litres of milk to provide and have proved to be the next best thing to airfence.

Thanks for the airfence pricing - some rough calculations would put the cost to any purchaser at approx $500k, plus GST to cover the relevant bits only, at Pukekohe. As has been cheerfully suggested elsewhere that the AMCC has a chunk ready cash, I seriously doubt the AMCC or ANY motorcycle club in NZ could stump that up. Probably why they have 400+ bales they put out and pull in every event.

Yep, is cheap insurance compared to someones life. But limits exist on everyone's resources.

Quote from Shaun: As far as the Isle of man title bit goes, Does that mean it is all ok for me to go and go stupid on the public road as well, because I have won a dam road race???

No and why would it? But I would hope that you'd be able to differentiate the difference in cumulative risks and solid objects between 2.8km of circuit at Pukekohe and 2.8km of many sections of the IOM.

Have a good Xmas.

[cowpoos]

Rainey hurt himself in 1993 in a gravel trap and didn't hit anything.

there were rolling humps or bumps of some discription in that gravel trap wayne rainey hit...hidden by the sand/grit that was covering it...they were not solid objects...but firmer that usual...designed to slow down formula one cars,as that gravel trap didn't meet run off guidlines for formula one at that time..so those bumps or what ever they were had to be made to help slow the cars down....

[twinshock750]

there were rolling humps or bumps of some discription in that gravel trap wayne rainey hit...hidden by the sand/grit that was covering it...they were not solid objects...but firmer that usual...designed to slow down formula one cars,as that gravel trap didn't meet run off guidlines for formula one at that time..so those bumps or what ever they were had to be made to help slow the cars down....

Cowpoos, just simple shallow waves in the gravel.

[Shaun]

Hi YA Twin,

AS far as any riders I am helping out now, it is THERE call where they race and practice, they are fully aware of the risks, as others are now as well!


I Have No Association with trackday company you mention at all, mate!!

As Far as speaking my mind and acting on what I have said

UPDATE RE Moto-Dynamix and www.motott.co.nz Track day training venture

Moto-Dynamix has just ordered from the USA 5x Commercial Professional Air Bags @ $1200 NZ each to be used on the concrete wall on the last turn at Taupo for our training days in the future

It is a point that I am personally not happy with due to potentuall accidents there, so, I have decided to put my money where my mouth is, and have the full backing Support of the motott Crew, cheers all!

Moto-Dynamix is here to stay here, and to be here in the safest professional way, for all the bikers on this site, and bikers in generall


Hope I have replied ok here:niceone:

[Mort]

Good on yer Shaun - much needed protection especially on training days...

[twinshock750]

Hi YA Twin,

AS far as any riders I am helping out now, it is THERE call where they race and practice, they are fully aware of the risks, as others are now as well!


I Have No Association with trackday company you mention at all, mate!!

As Far as speaking my mind and acting on what I have said

UPDATE RE Moto-Dynamix and www.motott.co.nz Track day training venture

Moto-Dynamix has just ordered from the USA 5x Commercial Professional Air Bags @ $1200 NZ each to be used on the concrete wall on the last turn at Taupo for our training days in the future

It is a point that I am personally not happy with due to potentuall accidents there, so, I have decided to put my money where my mouth is, and have the full backing Support of the motott Crew, cheers all!

Moto-Dynamix is here to stay here, and to be here in the safest professional way, for all the bikers on this site, and bikers in generall


Hope I have replied ok here:niceone:


Shaun

I suggest you reread my point five above as you obviously read it at your IOM pace... wind it back to club racer pace for a sec as you missed most of the key bits:

1) I didn't say that you did have any involvement with Kiwi track days...

2) My point of reference was with respect of your involvement with MOTOTT (which you then do go on to talk about your involvment above) and it still stands - people may draw a conflict of interest in your nugatory posts attempting to raise concern over the activities of another legitimate and very well respected ride day organiser (the AMCC ) and your current relationships?

3) With respect of Kiwi track days: I asked if you were taking a similar approach with them as they are also running events at Pukekohe (neh, even being advertised on this same forum subsection), as you are attempting to with the AMCC. To be really clear - did you approach them also with your concerns at the same time you started posted here about the AMCC ART days? If not, why not as they must surely have the same perceived issue?

Regarding riders you are helping - Is that a case of double standards? The track does not change between a race meeting, or ride/training day. You must either think the track is safe or you don't. It can't be both ways - your comment above effectively says that it is okay for people you know to race at Puke if they want because they can make their own decisions, but people you don't know and have no involvement with, are not allowed to attend ride days run by a very long standing Non Profit Organisation by unpaid, well trained, very experienced volunteers giving up their own time and receive tuition for their betterment and safer riding, not to mention enjoyment. All while at a venue which has all the safety features (passive and active) immediately available to the organisers.

Good on you for buying 6 air fence sections for Taupo (I don't like that wall either) truly money where your mouth is stuff.

Have a great Xmas Shaun. I'm sure you deserve a break (of the rest style!) after the year you've had....