Insurance companies and leaving your keys in the ignition

[Shaun Harris]

I have posted this in the wrong forum, according to my PM message Box, as well as I have made a huge mistake, because of mis communication, and my very aggressive concerned genuine nature

[EJK]

Yes, I barely read that* on the "Insurance Form".
And yes, they are in small writings.... Very small...

*Stolen when the key was in the ignition

Man.... I feel so sorry for your friend...

[yungatart]

I must be a dumb bunny, cos I always take the keys out of the ignition when I'm at the servo....

[vifferman]

I must be a dumb bunny, cos I always take the keys out of the ignition when I'm at the servo....
Me too, unless there's a passenger in the car.

[Shaun]

I must be a dumb bunny, cos I always take the keys out of the ignition when I'm at the servo....


No mate, you are obviously a wise bugger, but for an insurance company to inforce this rule, is a total crock of shit
:calm:

[AllanB]

If this happens the insurance company is legally correct as you have not filled your part of the agreement and taken all care to secure the vehicle.

Pretty simple stuff - I'd never leave my keys in the car at a service station or anywhere and my observations say most people do not.

Of interest is bike workshops - everyone I've been to has the bikes sitting out the back (usually in a fairly public area) with the keys in them. Gives me the shits:(

[KoroJ]

Not the first time a car has been 'borrowed' from a forecourt.

I would think it's fair enough for the insurance companies to expect us to take 'Due Care' and I must remember to take my keys out next time.

[skidMark]

Me too, unless there's a passenger in the car.


i always take them out but even more so if passengers in the car....these cage passengers, can't trust any of em.:whistle:

[Shaun]

If this happens the insurance company is legally correct as you have not filled your part of the agreement and taken all care to secure the vehicle.

Pretty simple stuff - I'd never leave my keys in the car at a service station or anywhere and my observations say most people do not.

Of interest is bike workshops - everyone I've been to has the bikes sitting out the back (usually in a fairly public area) with the keys in them. Gives me the shits:(


Guess I must be stupid then.

But since I am a man of principal and do what I say I will do, I will not do any more work for this paticullar company again.

[shafty]

It's a no brainer, I take the keys with me and lock the car when paying for gas. In seconds someone could whip my Radar, GPS, digi camera etc.

Few years ago - OK, 12 years ago, someone was lurking around the Te Atatu Post Office waiting for some sucker to stop and post mail while leaving the engine running................they did, and the car was gone in seconds................so I doubt it's any safer nowadays

[Shaun]

Not the first time a car has been 'borrowed' from a forecourt.

I would think it's fair enough for the insurance companies to expect us to take 'Due Care' and I must remember to take my keys out next time.




Due care yes, but how about the power of the human mind, ie, mistakes happen, and some people are quite blind to how the world works ie thieves etc
\

Apart from all that, surely the people who sold the policy, must be legally responsible to explain what the details of the insurance contract are? they do have the persons money for his policy after all

[sunhuntin]

lots of customers leave their keys in... lots others dont. i find it highly amusing when theres only one customer and myself, and they still take the keys... course, they dont know that i cant drive, lmfao.

i usually take the keys after filling either bike, but i have forgot them in town a few times. once i was a 30 min wander around the warehouse. wasnt till i came out and they werent in my helmet that i realised, lol.

[Matt_TG]

It's all about taking due care and all reasonable steps to secure property / minimise loss.
Leaving your keys in an unlocked vehicle is inviting trouble really. We know we "shouldn't" have to worry about these things but times have changed from the days you could leave your house / car unlocked all day and no one would touch it.

Don't blame insurance companies, blame society.

[sAsLEX]

It's all about taking due care and all reasonable steps to secure property / minimise loss.
Leaving your keys in an unlocked vehicle is inviting trouble really. We know we "shouldn't" have to worry about these things but times have changed from the days you could leave your house / car unlocked all day and no one would touch it.

Don't blame insurance companies, blame society.

But should you lock the front door of your house if your in the lounge in the summer lest someone walk in and steal something?


There is due care and there is practicalities. Should you also remove all your tank bags etc before heading inside to the counter lest someone walks off with them?


Being 15 feet away from your unlocked vehicle with it in sight is due care in my view.

[Grumpy Gnomb]

Has anything actually been said from the insurance company or are we just guessing what they might do

[Matt_TG]

But should you lock the front door of your house if your in the lounge in the summer lest someone walk in and steal something?


It happens a few times that someone will take things from an unlocked house when the owner is in the garden, however the risk and value of a vehicle with its keys in it being taken from a servo forecourt would be higher I'd imagine, given the amount of people around and the relative ease of hopping in and driving off, hence needing to be more vigilant.

The offender would also find it easier to case out the job, being able to see the car arrive, watch the driver inside the shop etc - so yeah I reckon the risk is higher.

A bit more at stake if there's a trailer attached too with a bike on it. Two for the price of none?

What would have happened to the bike if he had the keys in his hand or pocket? Probably nothing.

You could always seek a Disputes Tribunal ruling.

[kb_SF1]

Leave my keys in the car at a service station, same as leaving the bike running while i go into pay, no way.
Sorry your friend lost his bike, not all people can be trusted.:weep:

[Coyote]

Don't insurance companies insure against accidents anymore?

[slopster]

Must've been a pretty keen thief. He obviously knows that the police will be alerted immediatly as the owner sees his car drive off and the chance of doing a runner with a trailer on your car is about nil

[Shaun]

Must've been a pretty keen thief. He obviously knows that the police will be alerted immediatly as the owner sees his car drive off and the chance of doing a runner with a trailer on your car is about nil




they did actually get away with it, and apparently, it has happened at this station many times, but no extra signage any where to warn people that may make the simple mistake of leaving the keys in the ignition

[Cibby]

I agreee with KoroJ,

Insurance is in place to assist you to rebuild your life and financial situation in the event of a catastrophy, it is not a fall back so you can get lazy and not take care of your stuff or secure it against theft.

The insurance broker is oblidged to try to give as much information as possible but if your friend had actually read his policy wording, he would have read loud and clear that he had to take care of his keys, SO many claims are declined and people blame the insurers because they dont read their own policy wordings, they just assume they are covered for everything..

I'm not saying that Insurers are completely blamless but I do believe that people need to take some basic personal responsibility!!!

[Matt_TG]

There is case law regarding this type of issue.

It comes down to calculating the risk of threat and negligence.

The linked document below raises some areas your friend may wish to pursue...

Insurance Ombudsman Ruling - TERMS IN INSURANCE POLICIES REQUIRING INSUREDS
TO TAKE REASONABLE CARE (http://www.iombudsman.org.nz/pdfs/Attachment%208.pdf)

In summary -

When considering claims that appear to have been caused by the carelessness of the
insured, if the policy includes a reasonable care clause insurers have the burden of proving
that the insured’s conduct amounted to at least gross negligence.

Claims that appear to have been caused or contributed to by the carelessness of the insured
need to be scrutinised and investigated with a careful eye to detail before decisions are made
to deny liability on the basis of reasonable care conditions.

[fireliv]

I thought it was a given if you had not secured your car properly. I always set the alarm on my car when I walk away from it at a petrol station. I have seen footage of people reaching in to unlocked cars at service stations and stealing shit of the passanger seats, not cool!

[Shaun]

I agreee with KoroJ,

Insurance is in place to assist you to rebuild your life and financial situation in the event of a catastrophy, it is not a fall back so you can get lazy and not take care of your stuff or secure it against theft.

The insurance broker is oblidged to try to give as much information as possible but if your friend had actually read his policy wording, he would have read loud and clear that he had to take care of his keys, SO many claims are declined and people blame the insurers because they dont read their own policy wordings, they just assume they are covered for everything..

I'm not saying that Insurers are completely blamless but I do believe that people need to take some basic personal responsibility!!!




If he was not illiterate, he probally would have read the paper work

[sAsLEX]

The insurance broker is oblidged to try to give as much information as possible but if your friend had actually read his policy wording, he would have read loud and clear that he had to take care of his keys, SO many claims are declined and people blame the insurers because they dont read their own policy wordings, they just assume they are covered for everything..



Did you read and understand the EULA for the software you have on your computer? I mean legally you would of as for it to work you have to click you have read it, all 800 pages of legalise that is nothing approaching simple understandable language.

Insurance companies should call a pot a pot. Not the tricky language they use to hide all the little clauses they can use to get out of paying.


Like the guy who had a pane of glass fall out of a building and smash his bike....... act of god..... opps not covered for that.

[Shaun]

There is case law regarding this type of issue.

It comes down to calculating the risk of threat and negligence.

The linked document below raises some areas your friend may wish to pursue...

Insurance Ombudsman Ruling - TERMS IN INSURANCE POLICIES REQUIRING INSUREDS
TO TAKE REASONABLE CARE (http://www.iombudsman.org.nz/pdfs/Attachment%208.pdf)

In summary -

When considering claims that appear to have been caused by the carelessness of the
insured, if the policy includes a reasonable care clause insurers have the burden of proving
that the insured’s conduct amounted to at least gross negligence.

Claims that appear to have been caused or contributed to by the carelessness of the insured
need to be scrutinised and investigated with a careful eye to detail before decisions are made
to deny liability on the basis of reasonable care conditions.



Fantastic reading, thankyou very much

[Matt_TG]

Insurance companies should call a pot a pot. Not the tricky language they use to hide all the little clauses they can use to get out of paying.

Really? They're in 'plain english' these days. If you don't understand anything, ask when you sign up.



Like the guy who had a pane of glass fall out of a building and smash his bike....... act of god..... opps not covered for that.

Who? When? God wouldn't go around pushing out windows. If there is sudden and accidental loss to the insured and the insured took all practical steps to safeguard property (ie didn't park under a sheet of glass that was waving in the wind) the claim will respond. I'd be very interested in hearing why it didn't.

[karla]

He must have been keen! Most of the service stations I stop at have cameras on the forecourts. I never leave anything in my car that I'm not prepared to lose. Have left the keys in the bike a few times now though ~ sounds like I have gotta start being more diligent there! Hope the insurance company comes through for him.


Must've been a pretty keen thief. He obviously knows that the police will be alerted immediatly as the owner sees his car drive off and the chance of doing a runner with a trailer on your car is about nil

[Shaun]

The whole point to me posting this, and for my own commitment to not do any work for this company, ( which is buisness suicide, but I like principals in life) was to try and stop any one else from forgetting there keys, and to remind all that we now live in a society where theft is almost legal, and to try and eliminate anyone else from making the same mistake, and being treated this way


After all, he really loved his bike, and did not leave the keys for some one to steal his car and bike for him, he honestly thought that he was safe in a place like a petrol station, which normally have security camera's every where:doh:


Honest mistake by this injin me thinks

[boomer]

The whole point to me posting this, and for my own commitment to not do any work for this company, ( which is buisness suicide, but I like principals in life) was to try and stop any one else from forgetting there keys, and to remind all that we now live in a society where theft is almost legal, and to try and eliminate anyone else from making the same mistake, and being treated this way


After all, he really loved his bike, and did not leave the keys for some one to steal his car and bike for him, he honestly thought that he was safe in a place like a petrol station, which normally have security camera's every where:doh:


Honest mistake by this injin me thinks

You're a wry little man Shaun, i'm starting to understand the way you operate.

[steveb64]

The whole point to me posting this, and for my own commitment to not do any work for this company, ( which is buisness suicide, but I like principals in life) was to try and stop any one else from forgetting there keys, and to remind all that we now live in a society where theft is almost legal, and to try and eliminate anyone else from making the same mistake, and being treated this way


After all, he really loved his bike, and did not leave the keys for some one to steal his car and bike for him, he honestly thought that he was safe in a place like a petrol station, which normally have security camera's every where:doh:


Honest mistake by this injin me thinks

Total bummer for him, but man, the cops are far too busy saving lives by being really busy chasing '12k over' speeders to bother about petty things like theft or assault. Ya gotta be a pessimist these days - you never know WHO is going to try and rip you off, or when, and if you don't look after your shit, nobody else is going to. :angry:
And as for the feckin insurance companies - they're just trying to max their profit margins, and if they can get off without having to pay out - they will. Well, most of them will - I've heard that there is an occasional one that'll pay out, no problems - I've just never had a policy with them... :laugh:

On the thread of bikes on trailers being nicked - a mate of mine had his kids 80 on the trailer, on the way to get it serviced, stopped to do some business at the post office, came out, and some low life had unhooked the trailer and bike, hooked it up to their vehicle, and gone. :shit:

A lot to be said for towball couplings that can be locked...

[AllanB]

The whole point to me posting this, and for my own commitment to not do any work for this company, ( which is business suicide, but I like principals in life)

Nice idea but face it your friend made a silly mistake and is responsible for the end result - why should you lose $ because of this?

Consider the situation if he had borrowed your bike, left the keys in it and it was stolen, would you not consider it his fault?

I believe your protest will only affect you and yours in the long run - the insurance company will just go to someone else.

Does the petrol station have and security cameras, it would be very rear not to as ironically most insurance companies insist on it!

If you want to get one over them keep doing the work for that company and charge a bit extra on each job and donate that to your friend.

[Shaun]

Does the petrol station have and security cameras, it would be very rear not to as ironically most insurance companies insist on it!

Apparently the cameras were not working



If you want to get one over them keep doing the work for that company and charge a bit extra on each job and donate that to your friend.[/QUOTE]


But that is also like theft, and I am not a thief or a liar!

[Edbear]

Due care yes, but how about the power of the human mind, ie, mistakes happen, and some people are quite blind to how the world works ie thieves etc
\

Apart from all that, surely the people who sold the policy, must be legally responsible to explain what the details of the insurance contract are? they do have the persons money for his policy after all


If we sell anything to anyone, we are obliged to make sure they understand what they are signing. Public Liability Insurance doesn't cover negligence in our duty of care.



... once i was a 30 min wander around the warehouse. wasnt till i came out and they werent in my helmet that i realised, lol.


Been there, done that...:innocent:




It's all about taking due care and all reasonable steps to secure property / minimise loss.
Leaving your keys in an unlocked vehicle is inviting trouble really. We know we "shouldn't" have to worry about these things but times have changed from the days you could leave your house / car unlocked all day and no one would touch it.

Don't blame insurance companies, blame society.


Well said, but the companies we deal with are usually open to negotiation if you've taken reasonable care. Having said that, we do have to take more responsibility for ourselves and due to my job, I always lock my car at Gas Stations. I carry personal documents and a laptop, have a GPS, etc. I'm naturally security-conscious.



But should you lock the front door of your house if your in the lounge in the summer lest someone walk in and steal something?


There is due care and there is practicalities. Should you also remove all your tank bags etc before heading inside to the counter lest someone walks off with them?


Being 15 feet away from your unlocked vehicle with it in sight is due care in my view.


I agree. Unfortunately, you hear far too often of house burglaries while the householder is inthe back garden or upstairs, or elswhere in the house. Not to mention home invasions and rapes.



they did actually get away with it, and apparently, it has happened at this station many times, but no extra signage any where to warn people that may make the simple mistake of leaving the keys in the ignition


Excellent idea, we have signs at rest areas and beaches about locking vehicles and keeping valuables out of sight. Should be simple to have a sign reminding customers.



...Apparently the cameras were not working!


That sucks! And would really annoy the Police if there had been an armed robbery there...

[Usarka]

Funny how insurance will cover you if you fuck up when you're riding or driving and end up in a ditch or buried in a mercedes, but you make a small mistake like leaving your keys in the car for 2 minutes and they throw a fit and refuse to pay out......

[AllanB]

Apparently the cameras were not working

But that is also like theft, and I am not a thief or a liar!


Man that really sucks regarding the cameras, regardless of the keys being in it (in a perfect world you should be able to do this) your friend has had a shit run of luck!

Fair comment re increasing prices as well!

[karla]

Man that really sucks regarding the cameras, regardless of the keys being in it (in a perfect world you should be able to do this) your friend has had a shit run of luck!


It sounds like bad luck... but I'll wait to see what the outcome is before I make any judgment. This may turn out to be better than it looks at first glance (the insurance company still hasn't made a decision, right?).

Most of the run-ins I've had with insurance companies have turned out well. You just have to be prepared to keep going back to them.

I was prepared to argue the point when my insurance company
said they wouldn't pay because I couldn't prove my computer crashed because of a power surge. I would have fought on the basis that they couldn't prove it had, but ended up not having to. They are generally pretty good. Time will tell ...

[Ixion]

Excerpt from a State Insurance policy, from the paper cited by Mr Matt_TG

The insured shall take all reasonable steps to safeguard from loss or
damage and maintain in efficient condition, any vehicle described in the
Schedule hereto…

What impertinence. If I do not have my car tuned up (so it is not running efficiently), or if the engine is worn and smoking (also inefficient), the insurer is at liberty to deny a claim when it is stolen ! By their logic they are entitled to deny a claim if they can show you have missed a recommended service.

As to the keys thing. It may be valid to say that if a person habitually leaves the keys in the car all day parked in the middle of the city by the roadside, then that is careless and stupid. But leaving them in the car while one walks a few feet , with the vehicle in full sight seems another matter. And if the iinsurance companies argument be accepted, then arguably taking the keys with you is not enough. After all, what if you put them down on the counter while paying for the petrol and Rangi McLowlife snatches them and runs out to your car and drives off? Claim declined I imagine. What if Rangi snatches them from your hand? The insurance company will no doubt claim that you have been negligent in not putting them in a buttoned pocket.

Do you always put a chain through the wheel of your bike when you go to pay for your petrol? If not, I suspect an insurance company would decline a claim if Rangi aand a couple of strong mates grabbed the bike (no keys in it but not chained), and threw it onto his ute and drove off. Not hard to do with a small bike.

Insurance companies are the greatest knaves unhung. They are without exception total crooks and scoundrels, and that industry is massively overdue for legislative sorting out. In my opinion an insurance policy is like as not a waste of money, because insurance companies will ALWAYS try to evade their responsibilities.

[Ixion]

Incidentally, people sometimes talk of the Insurance Ombudsman as if that were an independent arbitrator like the real Ombudsman.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The Insurance and Savings Ombudsman is a front organisation created by the insurance companies themselves, and run by them.

From their own web site


The ISO Scheme was set up in 1995 by the insurance industry to resolve disputes between consumers and insurance and savings companies.

Its board consists solely of appointees from the insurance companies.

You would have a snowball's chance in hell of them finding in favour of an insured. Even worse than the Police Whitewash Authority .

[Shaun]

You're a wry little man Shaun, i'm starting to understand the way you operate.


do ya, how is that mate?

[Shaun]

#34 Today, 10:02
Edbear
Forum whore

Bike: 2007 Suzuki C50T Boulevard





Apart from all that, surely the people who sold the policy, must be legally responsible to explain what the details of the insurance contract are? they do have the persons money for his policy after all


If we sell anything to anyone, we are obliged to make sure they understand what they are signing. Public Liability Insurance doesn't cover negligence in our duty of care.


The part about this that has really got me very angry, is the fact that the person who sold my great friend his policy, was 100% AWARE THAT HE HAD SEVERE READING PROBLEMS, AS WAS HIGH LIGHTED IN HIS LAST INSURANCE CLAIM FOR A ACCIDENT HE HAD, AND THAT SAME PERSON HAS LIED TO ME, BY SAYING THAT A CERTAIN CONVERSATION THAT TOOK PLACE BETWEEN THEM, NEVER HAPPENED! AND I KNOW WHO I WILL TRUST FROM NOW ON FOR SURE

[Edbear]

#The part about this that has really got me very angry, is the fact that the person who sold my great friend his policy, was 100% AWARE THAT HE HAD SEVERE READING PROBLEMS, AS WAS HIGH LIGHTED IN HIS LAST INSURANCE CLAIM FOR A ACCIDENT HE HAD, AND THAT SAME PERSON HAS LIED TO ME, BY SAYING THAT A CERTAIN CONVERSATION THAT TOOK PLACE BETWEEN THEM, NEVER HAPPENED! AND I KNOW WHO I WILL TRUST FROM NOW ON FOR SURE


An all to often-heard complaint! Most brokers, and especially most, if not all, insurance reps are commission-based and the pressure is on for sales. We have come across far too many clients who have been oversold, sold the wrong policies or had the insurance mis-represented to them, my son included.

There are honest brokers out there, but too many who are as you describe. I like the advantage of being salary-based and genuinely independent. My company insists on being straight-up, transparent and doing what is in the client's interests. It makes commercial sense in the long term, as it can only take one disgruntled client to go to Fair-Go and our rep goes down the toilet.

So while I may not get rich doing this, at least I can sleep at night!

[Shaun]

An all to often-heard complaint! Most brokers, and especially most, if not all, insurance reps are commission-based and the pressure is on for sales. We have come across far too many clients who have been oversold, sold the wrong policies or had the insurance mis-represented to them, my son included.

There are honest brokers out there, but too many who are as you describe. I like the advantage of being salary-based and genuinely independent. My company insists on being straight-up, transparent and doing what is in the client's interests. It makes commercial sense in the long term, as it can only take one disgruntled client to go to Fair-Go and our rep goes down the toilet.

So while I may not get rich doing this, at least I can sleep at night!

I believed the person who sold the policy was very/extremelly honest and caring ( he made me an extremelly fantastic offer when I got back out of hospital) But his actions of last week, and lying to me, has now shown me his true colours, shame.

And, I to can sleep at night mate, good on ya.

[Edbear]

I believed the person who sold the policy was very/extremelly honest and caring ( he made me an extremelly fantastic offer when I got back out of hospital) But his actions of last week, and lying to me, has now shown me his true colours, shame.

And, I to can sleep at night mate, good on ya.



Another incentive to be honest, is that insurance companies/brokerages have what is known as "claw-back". If a policy is cancelled within 2 years, the commission is to be refunded. :crybaby: Naturally it will happen from time to time for genuine reasons, but if you have oversold or misrepresented, it's much more likely and then family and friends of the disadvantaged person are also likely to quit their policies and switch companies.

I just find that long-term, it pays to be honest. Anyone can make a mistake, (even me...:gob:), but then the onus is to put it right, not avoid your responsibility.

[Shaun]

I just find that long-term, it pays to be honest. Anyone can make a mistake, (even me...:gob:), but then the onus is to put it right, not avoid your responsibility.



Exactually man, applause to you

to the people that have phoned me about this and to any one else who may think the same


NO I WILL NOT NAME ANY PARTIES < IT IS NOT MY WAY OF FIGHTING FAIR

[Matt_TG]

IF you believe the ISO to be impartial take your concern to a Disputes Tribunal. I've been involved in many DT hearings, and found the outcome to be equitable.

As someone who sees things from both sides of the fence, I do see many people who screw insurers for more than they are entitled to. Others just can't seem to get what they are allowed.

I don't handle vehicle claims however the principles of insurance are the same.

[Tomcat]

You gotta be jokin. 99% of us leave keys in the car when we fill up at a gas station???!! No way. That is asking for trouble. It is all about taking reasonbale care and that means don't make it easy for theives! People who leave keys in cars and then get the vehicle stolen should not moan about it as it is their fault. By simply turning the vehicle off and slipping the keys in your pocket can prevent a lot of heartache after. To throw out threats if an insurance company won't pay out is a bit rough. The first line of defence is taking care of your property and that certainly means don't leave keys in the ignition when you elave your vehicle. There are opportunistic thieves everywhere looking for an easy picking.

[Tomcat]

We wonder why we pay high premiums?! I am sorry but if you leave the keys in your car and your car gets nicked whose fault is it? Would you leave your keys in your bike if you pulled into a service station and walk away from it. Feel sorry for your mate but c'mon isn't leaving keys in the ignition and walking away asking for trouble. All I know is the world is full of opportunistic thieves so why help them out? It is all about reasonable care, taking care of your property. Is leaving keys in the ignition taking reasonable care? Nope, don't think so. Simply by turning off the engine and slippin those keys into the pocket can save a lot of heartaches, simple as that. Then of coursde we want insurance to poay for our d gross stupidity. Then it affects us all with higher premiums and so on it rolls.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Im of the "alwayst take the keys out school" too.

but isnt the point of insurance to cover negligence, including your own?

[Edbear]

..but isnt the point of insurance to cover negligence, including your own?



Umm! No.:blink:

[dmouse]

we all end up paying higher premiums if insurance throw our money away to people who dont care or look after there property insurance is there to cover risks not mistakes

[shifter]

my owners manual,at no stage does it mention removing the key from the ignition when leaving the machine.Now i can only assume that this is the case for all vehicles.Maybe the car/bike manufacturer is at fault?:rolleyes:
I do wonder why them fitted an ignition switch when clearly it wasn't meant to be used.I am going to send mine back hoping to get a refund.

[sAsLEX]

I know that a NC30 can be hotwired in about 2 seconds, does this make me culpable when I take the keys but have left the steering lock off and it gets nicked?

[Mikkel]

Hmmm, he didn't actually leave the keys in the ignition of his bike did he? Wasn't it the keys for the car that was left behind? :crazy: (and yes, this is an irrelevant observation)

As for the "99% of us leave the keys in the ignition when paying for petrol" I think this thread clearly illustrates that it isn't true.
I certainly never does that - and at times I might even lock my car...

Besides, it doesn't matter if you only walk a few feet with the vehicle being in sight if you're not keeping an eye on it...

It is very sad that you have to take these measures these days, that we can not just trust our fellow beings to leave our stuff alone (and perhaps even care for it if necessary) - but let's wake up and smell the coffee. Theft is common as is a lot of other crime, failing to realise this is almost certain to cause you grief at some stage.
Personally, I'm on with the muslims on how to punish theft - I'm sure it isn't very funny stealing an X-Box if you only have one hand!

[Shaun]

I know that a NC30 can be hotwired in about 2 seconds, does this make me culpable when I take the keys but have left the steering lock off and it gets nicked?



READ THE LINK HERE


There is case law regarding this type of issue.

It comes down to calculating the risk of threat and negligence.

The linked document below raises some areas your friend may wish to pursue...

Insurance Ombudsman Ruling - TERMS IN INSURANCE POLICIES REQUIRING INSUREDS
TO TAKE REASONABLE CARE

[Shaun]

SORRY< READ THIS LINK FOR YOUR OPINION




There is case law regarding this type of issue.

It comes down to calculating the risk of threat and negligence.

The linked document below raises some areas your friend may wish to pursue...

Insurance Ombudsman Ruling - TERMS IN INSURANCE POLICIES REQUIRING INSUREDS
TO TAKE REASONABLE CARE (http://www.iombudsman.org.nz/pdfs/Attachment%208.pdf)

In summary -

When considering claims that appear to have been caused by the carelessness of the
insured, if the policy includes a reasonable care clause insurers have the burden of proving
that the insured’s conduct amounted to at least gross negligence.

Claims that appear to have been caused or contributed to by the carelessness of the insured
need to be scrutinised and investigated with a careful eye to detail before decisions are made
to deny liability on the basis of reasonable care conditions.

[sAsLEX]

Personally, I'm on with the muslims on how to punish theft - I'm sure it isn't very funny stealing an X-Box if you only have one hand!

Most thieves are repeat offenders........

[Usarka]

I am sorry but if you leave the keys in your car and your car gets nicked whose fault is it?

it's the thiefs fault dumbarse.

[Shaun]

PLEASE STOP TELEPHONEING ME


I started this as I said a wee bit back, JUST to try and wise any one up that may ---k up and forget to remove there keys

What I have said on here in some posts is way to much, and not professional nor wise for me and my future ( But Principals do matter to me)

Maybe I should stay off the internet and stay away from people for a while longer untill I fix my head issues since my crash 6 months ago?

I WILL NOT BE RE POSTING ABOUT ANYTHING TO DO WITH CASE ANYMORE APART FROM OFFERING APPOLOGIES THAT I MAY NEED TO?????????????

[scumdog]

After all, he really loved his bike, and did not leave the keys for some one to steal his car and bike for him, he honestly thought that he was safe in a place like a petrol station, which normally have security camera's every where:doh:

Not too many thefts actually prevented merely by a security camera being present.

[ynot slow]

Easy to be wise after the fact.
Such a shit society we live in today,you need to lock it or loose it,just cause I WORK HARD FOR IT WHY SHOULDN'T SOME LOWLIFE WITH NO BRAIN come and pinch it,after all my insurance will pay,yeah right.

I take my keys but don't lock the car,obviously if in city and am in car by myself I would lock it. BP Eltham is bit different than BP in city.

Best thing I saw was a few years ago in Auckland,mum had a new 626 Mazda,with alarm,stopped at shopping centre around Mangere,alarmed car but had window down halfway,walked away and watched,took about 3 mins before a local immigrant(ethnic)saw the oportunity,shit did he turn white when he tried to pull the lock up and open door when alarm went off,stupid cunt also got his arm stuck, with shock of sound of alarm he twisted it and nearly broke his forearm,meanwhile I casually went to drivers door,turned on the ignition to start,and wound up the window tight so he couldn't get away,then rang the cops,was scary though as most of the people were islanders,but they gave him shit,cops turned up,asked me too release him from window,damn I pushed the wrong button first,then released him,turned out he was wanted for a few crimes.

Also had another mate who had a dobberman,would sit behind the front seat on floor,the guy would leave his windows down a bit,he had similar story when a guy tried to get in,fair shit himself when the dog grabbed his arm,the guy was a constable in NP at time,now with drug squad,dog was better than alarm.

[sAsLEX]

Also had another mate who had a dobberman,would sit behind the front seat on floor,the guy would leave his windows down a bit,he had similar story when a guy tried to get in,fair shit himself when the dog grabbed his arm,the guy was a constable in NP at time,now with drug squad,dog was better than alarm.

But to quote some of the young kids who ask for a fiver to watch your car during football matches in England.

"Can your dog put out fires?"

[Swoop]

Don't insurance companies insure against accidents anymore?
Accidents = yes. Basic human stupidity... no.
Leaving your keys anywhere near your vehicle, is plain stupid.

they did actually get away with it, and apparently, it has happened at this station many times, but no extra signage any where to warn people that may make the simple mistake of leaving the keys in the ignition
Signage = shit.
I witnessed TWO people dancing on the top of a bar last night! FFS there was NO sign that said "DON"T DANCE ON THE FUCKING BAR!!!". Where is osh when you need them???!!!
:whistle:

Such a shit society we live in today,you need to lock it or loose it,just cause I WORK HARD FOR IT WHY SHOULDN'T SOME LOWLIFE WITH NO BRAIN come and pinch it,after all my insurance will pay,yeah right.

I take my keys but don't lock the car,obviously if in city and am in car by myself I would lock it. BP Eltham is bit different than BP in city.
Basic rule. "Go ahead - take my vehicle... if you can run faster than 850fps".

[Oscar]

Excerpt from a State Insurance policy, from the paper cited by Mr Matt_TG

The insured shall take all reasonable steps to safeguard from loss or
damage and maintain in efficient condition, any vehicle described in the
Schedule hereto…

What impertinence. If I do not have my car tuned up (so it is not running efficiently), or if the engine is worn and smoking (also inefficient), the insurer is at liberty to deny a claim when it is stolen ! By their logic they are entitled to deny a claim if they can show you have missed a recommended service.

As to the keys thing. It may be valid to say that if a person habitually leaves the keys in the car all day parked in the middle of the city by the roadside, then that is careless and stupid. But leaving them in the car while one walks a few feet , with the vehicle in full sight seems another matter. And if the iinsurance companies argument be accepted, then arguably taking the keys with you is not enough. After all, what if you put them down on the counter while paying for the petrol and Rangi McLowlife snatches them and runs out to your car and drives off? Claim declined I imagine. What if Rangi snatches them from your hand? The insurance company will no doubt claim that you have been negligent in not putting them in a buttoned pocket.

Do you always put a chain through the wheel of your bike when you go to pay for your petrol? If not, I suspect an insurance company would decline a claim if Rangi aand a couple of strong mates grabbed the bike (no keys in it but not chained), and threw it onto his ute and drove off. Not hard to do with a small bike.

Insurance companies are the greatest knaves unhung. They are without exception total crooks and scoundrels, and that industry is massively overdue for legislative sorting out. In my opinion an insurance policy is like as not a waste of money, because insurance companies will ALWAYS try to evade their responsibilities.

Without exception?
Massively overdue for legislative sorting out?
Always evade responsibilities?

My, you don't half get excited...
It's a pity your logic is not as strong as your hyperbole.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing (which makes you exceptionally dangerous indeed) – you seem to have extrapolated much from one paragraph taken out of context, Grasshopper.

Firstly, the maintenance clause in that State policy (badly worded, I must say), is there to stop you making a claim after binning your bike on bald tyres or worn out brakes.

They are unable to decline a claim using your "missed service" scenario due to the provisions of the various Insurance Law Reform Acts. A claim cannot be declined for a reason that is not directly related to the loss.

Your other claim scenarios would be covered as they lack any real reason for the Insurer to decline them. As for the subject of this thread, I would expect that it has a good chance of being paid for the same reason – the underwriter is going to have to prove that leaving your keys in the car in a servo is gross negligence. If it isn’t I would imagine a Lawyers letter to the insurer would clear things up.

[Coyote]

Accidents = yes. Basic human stupidity... no.
Leaving your keys anywhere near your vehicle, is plain stupid.

Most insurance claims are because of basic human stupidity. Going too fast for the conditions, your paintwork getting keyed, finding your bike on the ground with a tow bar dent on it's side, theft, etc. Leaving your key on the bike is not the brightest thing in the world, but I have done it the odd time when I'm in a rush or just absent minded. We all pay a small fortune to the insurance companies, I see this as just another way they try to whittle down their responsibilities that they should be paying out for.

"But they're making our premiums higher!" I hear someone say. Drop in the bucket in comparison to share holder pressure.


For a few years we had our dirt bikes on full cover, expensive stuff. We later found out they were only covered for the trailer flipping over with bikes still attached, not if a tie down failed and the bike fell off. Not likely to happen.

[Matt_TG]

As there's so much anti feeling amongst KBers towards insurance, why the hell do any of you actually insure your bikes? Reading these threads we have so many 'experts' who know all about what should be covered .. start up your own insurance company then, just for KBers. Ask no questions, take on anyone you can, bugger the risk or past insurance history. Pay every claim you get without question and you'll all be happy.

You'd make the claims handler's lives of the main insurers much easier. Of course there's nothing better in a claim's handlers' eyes than to drag out every single claim so it goes on forever.

Silly me, I was under the impression that insurer's main push was to reduce claim life. They LOVE having 100's of open files on their desks and fielding phone calls all day. [/sarcasm]

[sAsLEX]

As there's so much anti feeling amongst KBers towards insurance, why the hell do any of you actually insure your bikes?

Maybe its from all the bad experiences?


I know my insurance was a bitch when they tried to devalue my bike when in fact it was worth more when I had to claim for its theft. Seems market value only means market value if that is less than the value insured.

[Matt_TG]

If you insured something for less than it's worth, and they accepted the policy, then you wouldn't be fully indemnified if you were only paid the sum insured. They should deduct the excess off the actual loss (not the sum insured) and if that was still below what you lost in $$ value and there was a wreck to sell, you'd be entitled to proceeds of the wreck sale up to the amount to compensate for the actual value of the bike pre-loss. So, in effect you can get more than the sum insured on a market value policy....

[Oscar]

If you insured something for less than it's worth, and they accepted the policy, then you wouldn't be fully indemnified if you were only paid the sum insured. They should deduct the excess off the actual loss (not the sum insured) and if that was still below what you lost in $$ value and there was a wreck to sell, you'd be entitled to proceeds of the wreck sale up to the amount to compensate for the actual value of the bike pre-loss. So, in effect you can get more than the sum insured on a market value policy....

If you knowingly under-insure, they could apply average. That is.only pay the percentage of the claim that is insured - OK for a write off, but not for other claims (and they would be less likely to write big claims off).
What you suggest with the wreck is actually sometimes done, where the under-insurance is not deemed to be deliberate. The excess however, is deducted from the claim, not the value of the loss - you mention the insurer accepting the policy, but you accept it too, and that's how it's written.

If insurers allowed people to purposely under-insure, premiums would increase. Bear in mind that noy all cliams are total losses - the insurers would still be paying for the small claims.

[Matt_TG]

Average would only apply if specifically notified of it existing at the time of taking out the policy (Sec 16 , Insurance Law Reform Act 1985).

The insurer should be sure it knows what it is insuring at the outset.

[Oscar]

Average would only apply if specifically notified of it existing at the time of taking out the policy (Sec 16 , Insurance Law Reform Act 1985).

The insurer should be sure it knows what it is insuring at the outset.

Many insurers still have that clause in their policy.

[Shaun Harris]

AND APOLIGISE I WILL!!



The part about this that has really got me very angry, is the fact that the person who sold my great friend his policy, was 100% AWARE THAT HE HAD SEVERE READING PROBLEMS, AS WAS HIGH LIGHTED IN HIS LAST INSURANCE CLAIM FOR A ACCIDENT HE HAD, AND THAT SAME PERSON HAS LIED TO ME, BY SAYING THAT A CERTAIN CONVERSATION THAT TOOK PLACE BETWEEN THEM, NEVER HAPPENED! AND I KNOW WHO I WILL TRUST FROM NOW ON FOR SURE



I have had a very good conversation with the person involved in this, that I have stated he lied to me, and was 100% aware of my freinds delema,

First off, I was wrong about his 100% understanding that my freind had a severe reading dissability

And this person never Lied to me, it was a case of miss communication between him and my friend and myself

This was started out of frustration and anger and the thought that a friend was about to get a good kicking, as well as to remind others about the keys!

I am a man of principal, but can also be quite aggressive ( If no one had noticed)

I apologise to the person who I stated has lied and stiched a friend up in this thread, I am eating humble pie by the bucket load!

For the people offering constructive thoughts in this thread, thankyou for your concern for a fellow human and biker, sorry to have wasted all your time

Shaun Harris

[Matt_TG]

Let's all hope Shaun that it works out ok for all involved!

[NordieBoy]

I am sorry but if you leave the keys in your car and your car gets nicked whose fault is it?
The person who nicked it?


Would you leave your keys in your bike if you pulled into a service station and walk away from it.
Yes, all the time.

One more reason not to move "oop norf".

[Swoop]

Seems market value only means market value if that is less than the value insured.
What I love, is "agreed value"...

Each year the valued amount changes.
*Phone call* "My agreed value has changed".
"Yes, so what?"
"I haven't been consulted, OR agreed to the amount changing! So how can it be agreed...?".
"Ummmm......."


Bastards!

[Edbear]

AND APOLIGISE I WILL!!

I have had a very good conversation with the person involved in this, that I have stated he lied to me, and was 100% aware of my freinds delema,

First off, I was wrong about his 100% understanding that my freind had a severe reading dissability

And this person never Lied to me, it was a case of miss communication between him and my friend and myself

This was started out of frustration and anger and the thought that a friend was about to get a good kicking, as well as to remind others about the keys!

I am a man of principal, but can also be quite aggressive ( If no one had noticed)

I apologise to the person who I stated has lied and stiched a friend up in this thread, I am eating humble pie by the bucket load!

For the people offering constructive thoughts in this thread, thankyou for your concern for a fellow human and biker, sorry to have wasted all your time

Shaun Harris



Takes a big man to come back and post this. You are perhaps a bit hot-headed at times and can like many, jump to conclusions and go off half-cocked.

Pays to talk first to the person invloved and I hope you have been able to patch things up with him.

Still, I guess it's your passion and genuine concern for your mates that endear you to them and I'm sure those who know you will understand.

Lessons learned, new day tomorrow!

[steveb64]

AND APOLIGISE I WILL!!



The part about this that has really got me very angry, is the fact that the person who sold my great friend his policy, was 100% AWARE THAT HE HAD SEVERE READING PROBLEMS, AS WAS HIGH LIGHTED IN HIS LAST INSURANCE CLAIM FOR A ACCIDENT HE HAD, AND THAT SAME PERSON HAS LIED TO ME, BY SAYING THAT A CERTAIN CONVERSATION THAT TOOK PLACE BETWEEN THEM, NEVER HAPPENED! AND I KNOW WHO I WILL TRUST FROM NOW ON FOR SURE



I have had a very good conversation with the person involved in this, that I have stated he lied to me, and was 100% aware of my freinds delema,

First off, I was wrong about his 100% understanding that my freind had a severe reading dissability

And this person never Lied to me, it was a case of miss communication between him and my friend and myself

This was started out of frustration and anger and the thought that a friend was about to get a good kicking, as well as to remind others about the keys!

I am a man of principal, but can also be quite aggressive ( If no one had noticed)

I apologise to the person who I stated has lied and stiched a friend up in this thread, I am eating humble pie by the bucket load!

For the people offering constructive thoughts in this thread, thankyou for your concern for a fellow human and biker, sorry to have wasted all your time

Shaun Harris

Good to see you've got that sorted out. :niceone:

As for being aggressive - isn't that normal for a Ginga? :D

And I don't think you've wasted anyones time. :apint: - hell, if you've stopped even one bike/car from being nicked, 'cos the owner has grabbed their keys, instead of leaving them in the ignition - then that's the pay off.

[Shaun]

Good to see you've got that sorted out. :niceone:

As for being aggressive - isn't that normal for a Ginga? :D

And I don't think you've wasted anyones time. :apint: - hell, if you've stopped even one bike/car from being nicked, 'cos the owner has grabbed their keys, instead of leaving them in the ignition - then that's the pay off.



Thankyou squire

[Swoop]

hell, if you've stopped even one bike/car from being nicked, 'cos the owner has grabbed their keys, instead of leaving them in the ignition - then that's the pay off.
Damn right!!!
Do not put temptation in someones path. Some will not be able to resist.