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Mort
15th December 2007, 22:58
I've done 3 track days in NZ having come from the UK in 2006 where I did 40-50 at various circuits and with lots of different Trackday organisers ( TDOs).

I think there is a need to open up a few points on how track days are run here. Before I begin I want to say that my 3 days have been very enjoyable and I dont want to come across as some sort of whinging pomme... The points below dont stop me from riding, I just raise them because I think things could improve. I also recognise that there is a much smaller market here and there are cost implications (which I will cover below) ...

Anyway...I love track days and I think I can add something or stimulate some positive debate... simple as that.



Track time. Track time is everything. Its what we do track days for. We all make a big commitment to get to a track in NZ. I found it a bit frustrating that there was less track time than was feasible. In the UK, tracks open for riding at 9am sharp and finish at 5pm ( there are also evening sessions) . That means all registration and track rules etc are dealt with before then . Track sessions are 20 minutes and 6 or 7 sessions are quite normal. I've only been to Taupo but it is such a waste that it opens at 10am (or slightly earlier). I once asked why there was such a late start and was told about track temprature.... Having ridden in November and March in the UK this didnt wash with me...


Safety/emergency cover. I think there should be 2 ambulance crews on duty at track days. If there is an injury and he has to be taken away to hospital then there is cover for the rest. No riding should occur without emergency cover...I was amazed at one day I attended when we were allowed to ride without ambulance cover. If a serious accident occurred it would have been unforgivable.


Track rules. In the UK Pillions are banned, stunt riding is banned (black flagged) and leathers must be worn. I'm not entirely convinced by the leathers rule but I am disturbed by seeing pillions and riders using a track day as an opportunity to lash around with pillions or stunt ride. Both circumstances are serious accidents waiting to happen which could be avoided. I don't think this is appropriate on a track where there are varying riding abilities around. Other sessions for stunts could be arranged....but a track days is not the time or place IMO.... Overall though I think general track behaviour is good here (if the boys on supermotards can be avoided - but that is a seperate issue ay )...


Instruction. One of the things I and many others (in the UK) have benefitted from is having instructors there on the day to act as rolling marshals and to give advise to riders. For me this greatly enhanced the benefit I got from the day and added to the overall impression that the day was fully managed. Usually these were competent racers who valued the (free) track time and enjoyed the responsibility of the marshal/instructor role. I've seen very little of this here in NZ but I am sure it is feasible. It does raise the total number of track day addicts.... which is a good thing yes ?


Costs - In the UK many of the TDO's have gone to the wall because of lunatic insurance costs making running a TDO difficult. Thankfully there is a more sensible view on that here. There is also the high cost of running tracks there and the fact that people have more disposable income.... but in any case...the track days industry is booming. Almost every day at every track in the spring-autumn is fully booked before the day occurs. In other words, demand is strong. It is stong because the track and the TDOs have realised there is a market there... They have encouraged riders to come to the tracks... as a result the industry has grown...

I do think here could be quite strong too... especially for a firm that gives maximum track times, efficient management of the day and value-adds like instruction. There is scope for higher prices if the rider gets the benefits.

Here are some typical costs for tracks in the Uk :




Donington (without noise restrictions) : $452
Oulton Park (2005 price) $416
Cadwell Park (2006) $312
Rockingham Raceway (2006) $312
Silverstone (rare) $520
Brands Hatch (Full Circuit) $626 :bash:

Add to that the cost of fuel now at $2.75 and accommodation (min $65 per night) and its an expensive hobby doing
track days


Think yourselves lucky kiwis...



So when we pay $90 - $120 we have a bargain yes ?... but what do we get as a result ?.... and could it be better if we paid more or some things were changed...? From what I have seen the track day scene here could expand , could provide a better event and could be a profitable enterprise. There is a market for an improved product perhaps at a higher price.



More could be done for accommodation links (from track and TDO websites).... many folks are from out of town and could do with some info...

a better map on the Taupo motor sport park website and a few road signs around the place would be handy !!.... why spend millions on the circuit and not have a signs anywhere around the circuit ? :spanking:

and why are all the garages at Taupo closed....???....what's that all about ??...At all UK tracks ALL the garages are open... (including the one Rossi uses at Donington.... I always use that one.... :drool:)... it costs nothing.... Having all the punters sweating in the sun....thats pretty mean..... not to mention detrimental to the riders who need shelter during a long hard day.... surely a deal can be done on this !!!




Anyway.... as I say..... hopefully some debate will ensue....

Cheers

Mort

sAsLEX
15th December 2007, 23:04
Some good ideas.


Though banning stunting ? Some people go to the track to take this off the street, maybe having it in certain sessions instead of a banning ideology.

HDTboy
16th December 2007, 06:33
I once asked why there was such a late start and was told about track temprature.... Having ridden in November and March in the UK this didnt wash with me...
Fair call, track temperature is no different to road temperature. Some people need to either harden up, or take it easy

Safety/emergency cover. I think there should be 2 ambulance crews on duty at track days. If there is an injury and he has to be taken away to hospital then there is cover for the rest. No riding should occur without emergency cover...I was amazed at one day I attended when we were allowed to ride without ambulance cover. If a serious accident occurred it would have been unforgivable.
Fair call

Track rules. In the UK Pillions are banned, stunt riding is banned (black flagged) and leathers must be worn. I'm not entirely convinced by the leathers rule but I am disturbed by seeing pillions and riders using a track day as an opportunity to lash around with pillions or stunt ride. Both circumstances are serious accidents waiting to happen which could be avoided. I don't think this is appropriate on a track where there are varying riding abilities around. Other sessions for stunts could be arranged....but a track days is not the time or place IMO.... Overall though I think general track behaviour is good here (if the boys on supermotards can be avoided - but that is a seperate issue ay )...
Don't be silly, would you rather people rode like that on the road? Trackdays here are more about doing fun stuff in a legal environment

Instruction. One of the things I and many others (in the UK) have benefitted from is having instructors there on the day to act as rolling marshals and to give advise to riders. For me this greatly enhanced the benefit I got from the day and added to the overall impression that the day was fully managed. Usually these were competent racers who valued the (free) track time and enjoyed the responsibility of the marshal/instructor role. I've seen very little of this here in NZ but I am sure it is feasible. It does raise the total number of track day addicts.... which is a good thing yes ?
A few guys wear vests, does that count? I'm with you in the thinking that instructors could be arranged. Who's going to pay for the fuel, tyres, brakes, chain, and time off work that the day would cost said instructors?

More could be done for accommodation links (from track and TDO websites).... many folks are from out of town and could do with some info...
Fair call

a better map on the Taupo motor sport park website and a few road signs around the place would be handy !!.... why spend millions on the circuit and not have a signs anywhere around the circuit ? :spanking:
Fair call. Talk to the track owners

and why are all the garages at Taupo closed....???....what's that all about ??...At all UK tracks ALL the garages are open... (including the one Rossi uses at Donington.... I always use that one.... :drool:)... it costs nothing.... Having all the punters sweating in the sun....thats pretty mean..... not to mention detrimental to the riders who need shelter during a long hard day.... surely a deal can be done on this !!!
The garages are available for hire any day you like. Pop up to the Jennian homes building next to the entry and pay your $100 per bay

emaN
16th December 2007, 06:48
I'm with ya on the track-time, ambo's, instructors...
(followed Todd, from KiwiRider mag, 'round Manfield & found it a huge help)

Pillions can only go out in the slow sessions, as far as I know - my mrs loved the opportunity to get out on the track..

Most ppl I've seen wheelying do so on the left-ish side of the back straight (at Tpo); but I guess it could only be a matter of time before someone overtaking could smack into 'em..

Costs; if they go (much) higher, I'll be doing fewer of 'em :(

I wish I'd done trackdays while I was in the UK; still, the IoM made up for that ;)

Good points there Mort..

koba
16th December 2007, 07:51
That, sir, Is why the English are a bore.

Seriously, I love the disorganised and thin on rules and regs a bullshit culture we have in motorcycling in NZ.
While your points are valid and I do see good intentions behind them; I ride a bike and take it to the track to escape too much crap like that everywhere else. :crybaby:

as someone once said: Harden the fuck up!

Seriously tho, Its all good with me here and if I aint your style you may have missed the right country to move to by about a Tasman sea worth of water!

koba
16th December 2007, 07:56
Just re skimmed your post and:


Before I begin I want to say that my 3 days have been very enjoyable and I dont want to come across as some sort of whinging pomme... The points below dont stop me from riding, I just raise them because I think things could improve. I also recognise that there is a much smaller market here and there are cost implications (which I will cover below) ...


Isn't that a bit like saying I'm not gay but my boyfriend is?
Or I'm not a racist but...

Jeeze man! that sounds exactly like ya whinging to me!

cowboyz
16th December 2007, 08:19
I find the 5 sessions that you usually get are enough for a day. I dont have a problem with track time. I could get alot fitter and it would help but overall I think the formula works well.
Price - At $100-130 a trackday it is prohibitive enough for me not to do every one. More than that and I wouldnt go to any. The $40-$60 club trackdays are only possible due to massive support from volenteers. There has been rider training at every trackday I have been to but not quite so formal. Often you will see a guy following a vest round or the other way around. If you are keen for rider training then talk to the organiser and I am sure they will hook you up with someone.
Ambulances are expensive to have sitting round. Having 2 would raise the price (hence point about and I am sure I am not alone) There is always trained personal on hand if the ambulance does have to leave the track for any reason.
gear - I every trackday I have been to have been very good at checking gear. At minimum you need full armoured gear, nothing wrong with that.
Stunting - get a grip. As long as the stunts are not endangering anyone else on the track then I have no problem with guys wheeling the back striaght. Keep it out of the pits though.
As said above. the garages are available for hire at an extra cost.
Overall, most of the trackdays are run really well. If anything riders need to be paying more attention and not taking an extra lap after the checked flag and holding up the next group going out.

Kendog
16th December 2007, 08:20
If we paid those UK prices for track days here then I guess we could have the additional things you mention (a second ambo, pits, instructors etc) All great ideas but how much can be charged for a track day in NZ before interest reduces?

I personally think we get great value for money track days. I have done several at Manfeild for $40, Suzuki days were $50. The Honda day recently was a bit more ($150), but that covered lunch and there were instructors there for the day.

I have never finished a track day wishing I could get more time on the track, in fact a lot of times I have not done the last session because I am shattered.

warewolf
16th December 2007, 08:28
Jeeze man! that sounds exactly like ya whinging to me!Blimey you people can't stand anyone thinking about what's happening, critiquing and suggesting improvements, can you?! As Robert Taylor says about suspension, "the best you know is the best you've ridden".

Re: stunting, I guess the intent is not to 'take it to the street' but to take it to another venue. Tracks (days) are about cornering and high-speed. Stunting is about neither. You can stunt in a carpark or anywhere, really; you don't need a track.


So when we pay $90 - $120 we have a bargain yes ?I presume your numbers are converted from Sterling. You also need to convert NZ wages to sterling. I find it easier not to convert, and show the numbers, because the ratio of the currencies is about the same as the earnings. But I agree with the sentiment; they are cheap and there is room to up the fees to provide a better service.

BIGBOSSMAN
16th December 2007, 08:36
Some good suggestions there Mort, most would add to the absolutely reasonable pricing here but certainly would make the sessions safer.
As for the predictable anti-pom dude, it's a typical response from those with small kiwi-sized brains...

RantyDave
16th December 2007, 08:57
Read and understood. As with almost everything that sucks a bit about NZ it boils down to a lack of people, a lack of disposable income and from the perspective of a TDO a "squared law" lack of money to organise things. I find it enormously sucky to have to do a three (?) hour ride to get to Manfield which, at the end of the day, is only a half step ahead of putting some cones down in a carpark. It is, however, a shitload better than nothing.

So, yeah, a copy of Suzuka somewhere in the Wairarapa would be awesome and would no doubt help sales of sportsbikes round the region as a result. But there just isn't enough people or disposable income to make it a vaguely tenable proposition. Also: I'd be very happy to pay more for a track day for a bigger and/or closer track but suspect I'm in the minority here.

Dave

RantyDave
16th December 2007, 09:02
I have never finished a track day wishing I could get more time on the track, in fact a lot of times I have not done the last session because I am shattered.
Yeah, likewise. With the ride up, the track time itself, the standing around and general pissing about and rider back home again I'm absolutely farked by the end of the day.

Dave

jimbo600
16th December 2007, 09:33
Track rules. In the UK Pillions are banned, stunt riding is banned (black flagged) and leathers must be worn. I'm not entirely convinced by the leathers rule but I am disturbed by seeing pillions and riders using a track day as an opportunity to lash around with pillions or stunt ride. Both circumstances are serious accidents waiting to happen which could be avoided. I don't think this is appropriate on a track where there are varying riding abilities around. Other sessions for stunts could be arranged....but a track days is not the time or place IMO.... Overall though I think general track behaviour is good here (if the boys on supermotards can be avoided - but that is a seperate issue ay )...

No wheelies at a track day? I can't think of a better place to practice wheelies. I've seen plenty of folk bin it at a track, but never from pulling a wheelie.

sAsLEX
16th December 2007, 09:41
I presume your numbers are converted from Sterling. You also need to convert NZ wages to sterling. I find it easier not to convert, and show the numbers, because the ratio of the currencies is about the same as the earnings. But I agree with the sentiment; they are cheap and there is room to up the fees to provide a better service.

You also have to look at the respective cost of living.

Talk to some ex pats just over from the UK, allot of things here are far more expensive, currency swapping done, for example second hand cars are way more expensive here than in the UK. Plus we get paid diddly squat over here.

smoky
16th December 2007, 09:57
I dont want to come across as some sort of whinging pomme...


It must be a Tui moment kinda day today

White trash
16th December 2007, 10:32
Some good points but a couple that aren't entirely correct.

As for safety cover, I believe the correct procedure is that the Ambos in attendance call for another if a patient requires transporting.

In regard to track time, there's a couple of different ways to acheive this.

1) Open the track earlier and close it later. Aint gonna happen due to NZ noise regulations.
2) Less pace groups. Aint a good idea as it will hinder your safety concerns with different paced riders in the same group.
3) Less crashes. Good luck to ya.

As for wheelies, who actually gives a fuck? I see a guy pulling a wheelie on a straight piece of track less of a liability than half the people trying to push their bike to the limit through the turns. As Jimbo pointed out, I've yet to see someone crash doing a wheelie at a track. Obviously stunters need to use their heads like everyone else.

Can't see anything wrong with pillions in the slow group. I mean, they sign the disclaimer like everyone else and choose to climb on the bike. Why wrap people in cotton wool needlessly.

Want a garage? Pay your 100-200 bucks, simple as.

enigma51
16th December 2007, 10:36
You should go to some open days then you will truly get the pay your money and fuck off feeling

The rules are slightly relax and its not a bad thing Some of your suggestion are very valid and hopefully someone will see it and action them.

Like the signs etc
On the track itself you mentioned tutors etc. Well I know it might be public knowledge but anyone can walk up to of the current racers and they will be more than happy to help out.

MSTRS
16th December 2007, 15:38
Here are some typical costs for tracks in the Uk :


Donington (without noise restrictions) : $452
Oulton Park (2005 price) $416
Cadwell Park (2006) $312
Rockingham Raceway (2006) $312
Silverstone (rare) $520
Brands Hatch (Full Circuit) $626



Assume that is in NZ $....if you divide by 3, most of them are similar to here in terms of purchasing power.

warewolf
16th December 2007, 16:01
You also have to look at the respective cost of living.

Talk to some ex pats just over from the UK, allot of things here are far more expensive, currency swapping done, for example second hand cars are way more expensive here than in the UK. Plus we get paid diddly squat over here.I think you are agreeing with me?


Assume that is in NZ $....if you divide by 3, most of them are similar to here in terms of purchasing power.That's what I meant.

Mort
16th December 2007, 20:24
To add a point or two.


Tracktime - I'd be suprised if Taupo did have a noise restriction. ...its quite far from any housing. ....noise restrictions are fairly fierce in the UK at tracks like Donington and Oulton.... but they still manage a full day of riding... sometimes in to the evening too. I never thought 6 or 7 sessions was too much.... if you prefer 5 you can arrive late or go home early. My point is that it is totally feasible to run 6 or 7 session and I think it should be done here. Better accident recovery would help.


Emergency cover - as long as there is cover for every session, one ambo crew is fine... but running sessions without cover is unacceptable in my opinion.


Stunts and pillions - to an extent I accept the points made. The UK can be over regulated. Personally I would be appalled if there were a serious pillion injury. It is avoidable. I have no problem with stunts as long as they are done properly and out of harms way...


Costs - Trackdays in the UK ARE more expensive in REAL terms by a long way I think but they are more popular because the events are better managed and encourage new riders to have a go and come back again and again. I think people would pay more here but they would rightly expect more... I suggest more track time and better instructors is a start...


Instructors : the instructors I have spoken to in the Uk often do it for free, just to get the track time... their primary responsibility is to instruct/marshall but they get a lot of time to themselves at the track also. It might work here also...


GARAGES... its just pathetic to charge for a garage.... where is the cost to the track.... its a bad way to treat paying customers.




Mort

cowboyz
16th December 2007, 20:52
To add a point or two.



GARAGES... its just pathetic to charge for a garage.... where is the cost to the track.... its a bad way to treat paying customers.

Mort

on one hand you are saying that the trackdays are cheap and on the other you are saying that they shouldnt be charging for garages? Even if you take $100 for trackday and $100 for garage that is still only $200 for the day and you were saying 5 minutes ago that is cheap.

Mort
16th December 2007, 23:27
Actually what I am saying is that garages should be thrown in for free as I can see no SIGNIFICANT reason not to. .. why should I pay as much for a garage as I do for the track day ???.... and yes... track days are cheap but they could be better and there is a market for a better event.

Tony.OK
17th December 2007, 03:36
Track days here are still a relatively NEW concept,but in my mind are developing all the time.The TDO's here are pretty much doing it as a hobby at the moment,I've been doing the MottoTT days since they started and they have only gotten better,now Shaun H is on board with them theres a wealth of expert knoweledge available,just gotta ask.
I can't see the likes of Cali Superbike schools working here yet,ppl don't want to be in a classroom they just wanna do laps,maybe as racing gets more popular?But most racers are happy to give advice on a day.

Kickaha
17th December 2007, 05:12
I'd be suprised if Taupo did have a noise restriction.

I'd be more suprised if it didn't,I think you'll find every track in NZ has noise restrictions of some kind


and there is a market for a better event.

There may well be, but not if it makes it a more expensive track day

ArcherWC
17th December 2007, 05:45
To add a point or two.


Tracktime - I'd be suprised if Taupo did have a noise restriction.

Emergency cover - as long as there is cover for every session, one ambo crew is fine


GARAGES... its just pathetic to charge for a garage.... where is the cost to the track.... its a bad way to treat paying customers.


Mort

Just to clarify.

Taupo definatly does have a noise restiction, they cant start before 10am, not sure on finish time

As per most motorsport in NZ, there is one Ambo onsite and if required another one will come out to transport patients to hospital, so there should allways be cover

$100 for a garage that you can very easily fit 4 people in is pretty good value ($25 each)

I would also say that the operators in the UK "get away" with the higher prices as there are FAR more riders wanting a position on the day. Here they are only just filling up at the last minute, and there are some very cheep options, like the Suzuki track days as compitition

The instructor idea is a good one, but if I was paying extra for it, I would expect the instructor to be qualified and to have a structure to the training. At the moment it is pretty easy to ask one of the more experianced riders to show you some lines etc

cowboyz
17th December 2007, 15:45
had a wee think about it today and the idea that more detail be put into trackdays at more expense would definitely stop me from going. I dont care if I go round Manfield in 1.30 or 1.20 to be honest. What I do care about is getting time on the track (which I think the 5 sessions you get now are enough) and not having anyone upsetting me on the track on the day. (which I also think they have right for the better part with marshalls keeping an eye on dodgey riding and "TDO" keeping the louts inline. If I was using trackdays to improve a racing career or getting more familar with a track for an up coming racing event then my opinion would obviously be different. But for Joe blow who just wants to circulate and use a few horses that dont get used on the road without Mr Police intervention then its all good just the way it is. Add a heap of qualified rider training and more sessions and garages all incorperated in the cost and you will find those who just go to circulate will just go right on by.

Meekey_Mouse
17th December 2007, 16:08
Just to clarify.

Taupo definatly does have a noise restiction, they cant start before 10am, not sure on finish time


Taupo has to be finished by 4:30

GSVR
17th December 2007, 16:11
No doubt Trackdays will eventually end up like the UK or wherever with a whole lot more rules and regulations. Cost will skyrocket and people running them for love not money will get squeezed out by businessmen.

The longer this takes the better.

All the UK racers I've spoken too say how its a rippoff over there. OK if you have a money tree but if your an average guy your screwed.

You'd think if there where more people using the facilities the price would drop but no it just opens the floodgates for greed.

emaN
17th December 2007, 16:42
I'd personally like to have more sessions.
I'm assuming local Council would be the ones to approach for earlier starts/later finishes?

Warewolf - pull yer head in. Mort's voicing opinions & suggestions; hardly laying down the law, is he?

jrandom
17th December 2007, 16:46
I like the way trackdays are run in NZ currently.

Any more cost would be a bad thing. Any more regulation would be a bad thing.

If I want tuition, I'll ask someone faster than me for some tips and/or to show me the way round, and pay them if necessary.

Otherwise, I just want to go out there and ride a motorcycle on a racetrack, and thrice damned be he who makes it any more complicated or expensive than it needs to be.

Mental Trousers
17th December 2007, 18:34
To add a point or two.


Tracktime - I'd be suprised if Taupo did have a noise restriction. ...its quite far from any housing. ....noise restrictions are fairly fierce in the UK at tracks like Donington and Oulton.... but they still manage a full day of riding... sometimes in to the evening too. I never thought 6 or 7 sessions was too much.... if you prefer 5 you can arrive late or go home early. My point is that it is totally feasible to run 6 or 7 session and I think it should be done here. Better accident recovery would help.
Last track day I was at it went like this (as per the tracks resource consent I believe):
9:30am-10:00am you could have bikes on track but nobody going full noise, ie scrub in type session
10:00am-4:30pm this is the bit you pay for
4:30pm go home



Emergency cover - as long as there is cover for every session, one ambo crew is fine... but running sessions without cover is unacceptable in my opinion.
There's always an ambulance there if there's sessions running, even if you can't see it. It was probably parked over by the gate waiting for another ambulance to turn up and transfer the rider to that one.



Stunts and pillions - to an extent I accept the points made. The UK can be over regulated. Personally I would be appalled if there were a serious pillion injury. It is avoidable. I have no problem with stunts as long as they are done properly and out of harms way...
Trackdays are fantastic places to practice. Generally as long as people aren't doing wheelies in the middle of a group or in danger of ramming someone then they're not black flagged.
Pillion sessions are a fantastic way to get the missus etc involved. Ideally the pillion should be wearing more safety gear than the rider, but it is their choice. I wouldn't take anyone out without full gear, but others are fine with it.



Instructors : the instructors I have spoken to in the Uk often do it for free, just to get the track time... their primary responsibility is to instruct/marshall but they get a lot of time to themselves at the track also. It might work here also...
Often (but not always) there's instructors hanging around. You just have to ask to find out who.



GARAGES... its just pathetic to charge for a garage.... where is the cost to the track.... its a bad way to treat paying customers.
The track days are cheap. The cost of the garages is built into the track day costs overseas.

Jorja
22nd December 2007, 10:51
I just spoke to Frosty about this thread.
To answer some questions raised
This applies to a FROSTY's track day but may apply to others
1) TRACK TIME We could open the track earlier but we are running the track days for the love not the money.So we arrive at a semi civilised hour of 7.30 for a first wheels on track of 9.45-10 am
2) yes the OFFICIAL closing time is 5.00pm -this is a track owners restriction.So we try to have every group cycled through as many times as poissible before then -sometimes its a 4.30 sometimes a 4.40 finish.-to be honest most times theres only about 5 people wanting to carry on riding by then
3)Pillions/stunts-we make it clear that stunting is not officially encouraged.
2 examples- a)experienced rider looks around sees clear track all around them and "accidently " lifts the front wheel.-we tend to be looking elsewhere if that "accident" occurs
b)egomanic pulls a mono through the middle of a bunch of slower bikes.-That person is OFF the track and will probably go home
Pillion sessions have proven to be a nightmare as far as speed differences etc so we wont run them
3)Ambulance.-Frosty has run a fair few of these events and has never had reason to need the second ambulance.-This is NOT nor ever will be a financial decision. If ever He felt it was neccassary to have a second ambulance it would be there -The safety of the riders is his number 1 Concern.
4) pit garages. They are available for hire and several groups have banded together at a Frosty's track day to use them.
This is a financial decision -Basicly if you want a garage,get one $its about $250 which divided amoungst a group of 4-8 people is pretty cheap.
5) training. I guess you have never been to a Frosty's track day.
He has had people like Shaun Harris,Glen Williams,Andrew Stroud and Jay Lawrence at his track days and they were there specifically for offering advice or one on one sessions if requested.
5)Session lenth -At Taupo we have settled on the formula of a FIRST session of 10 minutes to familarise yourself with the track and marshal positions. this is followed by 15 minutes sessions.
The reason being we feel that half an hour between rides is about the right length.
6) Gear/bike condition.-Scrutineering is done before riding starts.
Gear wise we feel that Cudura offers the correct level of protection for Taupo for ONE crash.Cudura/leather is the only gear Frosty accepts
8) track time -Basicly that is controlled not by Frosty and the team but by the RIDERS. If they dont crash then they get more track time.
9)Pricing. We restrict numbers to ensure safety $100 per person with 100 people maximum ensures everyone gets QUALITY track time. Can you please suppy a link to the TDO's running trackdays for $300.00-$450.00 as we understand you have used the wrong symbol I think you mean three hundred POUNDS to 450 POUNDS not dollars (frosty said he's hapy to stand corrected there)
Keeping in mind we dont run these days to make money we do it for love of the sport
7) accomodation. Frosty has a deal with a motel near the track.-Link etc is usually up.

Mort
23rd December 2007, 12:28
Thanks for the detailed reply Jorja. Good points all... especially on the pillion/sunts, ambulance and training issues raised.

You're right, I havent attended one of Frosty's trackdays (but hope to some time). My (too few) 3 days here have been with MotoTT (I'd like to point out that I make no criticism of MotoTT in my posts - my points are for general discussion only and I entirely accept that others may have alternate opinions.)


Tracktime - IMO This what we pay for and why we put so much time and effort in to attending these days. We should be looking at ways to maximise track time within the limits imposed by tracks and councils. I think its a waste not have bikes on the track from 9AM sharp. I also think the best formula is 20 minute sessions with 3 groups. 15 minutes is too short I feel and 25 minutes is too long. 4 groups with 20 minute sessions means there's too long waiting for the next session (especially around lunch). 6 sessions is easily attainable and 7 quite possible.



Pit Garages - I'm sorry but there must be a culture clash here or something.... All UK circuits with garages (which is most of them) leave them open for the riders to use. I've never seen or heard of a circuit charging for use of a garage. Its not added (as an extra cost ) to the riders or the TDO. Its part of the circuit facilities which are being hired.
You say it costs $250 (MotoTT say its $100).... Thats as much as the track day itself !! There's no cost to the track in opening the garages and they dont make much money by charging for them (because nobody wants to pay for them). Supposing I'm doing a track day on my own (which I do)... the cost of a garage is unacceptable and frankly I'd look ridiculous sat in my own garage if I were to pay for one. I could (say) put a post on here to team up with others.... but why should I have to ? (Not many others did clearly)... I just think its petty and mean to have 100 riders standing around in the hot sun all day outside locked garages. I just think its all wrong.


Pricing - The prices I stated were in NZ$ (at $2.60 to the pound) and are approximately accurate for 2006/2007. I've had a quick look at some UK TDO websites but because its winter there many haven't posted costs for next summer. The costs you will see are for winter days or Spanish tracks (where track day addicts migrate to in winter)

For those interested here's a list of some of the firms I have used.

Focussed Events (http://www.focusedevents.com/index.asp) - This firm started small and grew because they are well managed and provide lots of add-on value without high costs. They really captured a big chunk of the market and moved it on.

No Limits (http://www.nolimitstrackdays.com/) - A bit more basic - same cost - well run.

Donington Park (http://www.donington-park.co.uk/trackattack/) This is run by the circuit itself - Seen lots of big name riders there - Note how they manage noise restrictions - They also run evening sessions in the summer.

Hottrax (http://www.hottrax.co.uk/) Another well run firm


Cheers

Mort

Jorja
24th December 2007, 10:58
Mort if you were here just 3 short years ago you would have been horrified at trackdays in NZ.
Go to an open day at pukekohe soon

emaN
24th December 2007, 11:46
jorja, sorry man, but that's no excuse.
sure, they were basic and sucked.
but surely we should all be aiming for the best poss outcome/result!?

i'm pretty much agreeing with most of what Mort's raised; especially the earlier starts & access to the garages!

rwh
24th December 2007, 12:03
Pit Garages - I'm sorry but there must be a culture clash here or something.... All UK circuits with garages (which is most of them) leave them open for the riders to use. I've never seen or heard of a circuit charging for use of a garage. Its not added (as an extra cost ) to the riders or the TDO. Its part of the circuit facilities which are being hired.
You say it costs $250 (MotoTT say its $100).... Thats as much as the track day itself !! There's no cost to the track in opening the garages and they dont make much money by charging for them (because nobody wants to pay for them). Supposing I'm doing a track day on my own (which I do)... the cost of a garage is unacceptable and frankly I'd look ridiculous sat in my own garage if I were to pay for one. I could (say) put a post on here to team up with others.... but why should I have to ? (Not many others did clearly)... I just think its petty and mean to have 100 riders standing around in the hot sun all day outside locked garages. I just think its all wrong.


I've only done one trackday (Suzuki one at Manfeild), and have had no part in organising one, but I figure this.

It presumably does cost something to open up a garage - there may well be some cleaning up to do after, and it includes power for tools and tyre warmers etc, right? Not a huge cost, but not nil.

And more significantly, it provides a way to let those with more disposable income subsidise those with less, without feeling ripped off - if you want a garage, and you can afford it, go for it. If not, well, you can still enjoy the day. If the price was just put up to cover it, you'd have fewer people turning up, and people annoyed because they paid just as much as everyone else, but there weren't any garages left.

Admittedly it would probably be better to adjust the price to the point that will fill the garages without anybody who wants one going without, but that would be tricky to calculate - especially with the low numbers of days being run, meaning nobody has a huge amount of experience. (ie I don't mean to knock any of the organisers, but they don't do it every weekend).

Richard

Mort
24th December 2007, 14:36
With respect Richard - I disagree on the garage issue.... If the circuits in the UK can do it then the circuits can do it here. I can only speak for my experience for Taupo - there are plenty of garages for all. The only cost I can think of is for some electric to run tyre warmers...

If we (the riders) dont speak up about this rip off then the current situation will continue...

Taupo is a first class circuit but in this respect the owners and TDO's are treating its paying customers like 2nd class citizens.

enigma51
24th December 2007, 14:44
I disagree on the garage issue.... If the circuits in the UK can do it then the circuits can do it here.

Last time i checked its still New Zealand in any case what you want to do with a garage? Scared of the sun? In true kiwi style toughen the fuck up. :2thumbsup


You can put 6 bikes in a garage which means 200 / 6 = $33.33 not to bad me thinks.

Mort
24th December 2007, 17:42
Last time i checked its still New Zealand in any case what you want to do with a garage? Scared of the sun? In true kiwi style toughen the fuck up. :2thumbsup


You can put 6 bikes in a garage which means 200 / 6 = $33.33 not to bad me thinks.

Well .... obviously I have no point at all.... just as long as it makes sense to you eh... All I have to do is round up 5 other people and still have to pay for a garage....

Actually no.... I'm completely wrong .... I actually prefer to stand like an idiot in the sun all day right next to garages built for track users .... just like you..... and just like you I should not want for anything better.

Jorja
24th December 2007, 19:42
Mort you have as much right to express your opinion as anyone else.
The track OWNERS at Taupo spent a lot of money very recently(less than 24 months ago) to build the facilities you are talking about. This includes the entire track. They expect a return on that investment
I suspect the tracks in the UK have been established for 30 years or more.Plenty of time to pay for the garages a hundred times over
I think it really is a case of culture shock.
When deciding what facilities to provide as part of the costs in a track day we (frostys crew) took the feedback from the majority of riders.MOST riders felt that they would rather have user pays for the garages.
Let those that want them pay for them was the feedback.
Again regarding track time .Except where lots of riders crashed most riders have had enough by 4 oclock ish even with a 10 oclock start.
The point we were making regarding 3 years ago is that track days in New Zealand are steadily being improved and refined,but it really is only 3 years since the open days at pukekohe were pretty much the normal way for track days in NZ.
Stick with it and watch us grow.

emaN
24th December 2007, 20:16
Last time i checked its still New Zealand in any case what you want to do with a garage? Scared of the sun? In true kiwi style toughen the fuck up. :2thumbsup


You can put 6 bikes in a garage which means 200 / 6 = $33.33 not to bad me thinks.
is this what you sound like at work?
geez...we're all proper screwed then.

it's the principle of it all, or is that a wee bit beyond us...?

emaN
24th December 2007, 20:18
Mort you have as much right to express your opinion as anyone else....

Stick with it and watch us grow.
that's the attitude!

what d'ya think of this 'nigma?

Mort
24th December 2007, 21:14
thanks Jorja - I understand that the track day scene is evolving here... and for better or worse I am with you guys all the way - that is the reason for my post (for the benefit of those who think otherwise).

TDO's are a major source of income for tracks. I think there is a strong case for persuading the track owners to include the garages. As a further illustrating point, Donington Park recently (2006) replaced its entire pit complex at a cost of NZ$13m. Every pit garage was made available to every rider on every track day from day 1. So the fact that investment needs to be recouped by charging for garage use doesn't wash with me. The issue of charging for garages doesn't EVER arise.

Regarding track time, I think I've made my point earlier - personally I would like to see the whole day used efficiently. Riders can make their own choice as to how much track time they want thereafter.

The track scene in the UK exploded over the last 5 years. I think the major factors were:


Trackdays were made as safe as possible so novices would feel safe - this was done through strict rule enforcement and good track management (marshalls, recovery, ambulances, rolling marshalls, instructors on hand, even yellow bibs for those who wanted to be known as novice riders)


Training was one way in to doing track days for the average Joe. California superbike school introduced thousands to the track scene and also catered for racers of all standards (From Grand Prix down). Ron Haslam also runs a successful school at Donington. There are others but these are the best. On the average track day expert instructors were highly visible and approachable.


The circuits themselves believed there was a huge market out there and offered everthing they could to attract riders and TDO's.


The TDO's did not focus on expert riders exclusively but did accommodate their needs. Tyres, suspension set ups, guest racer tuition. Plenty of scope for 3rd party deals here.


I know the market is huge in the UK but there is no doubt the market was grown by firms like Focussed Events (http://www.focusedevents.com/) doing huge deals with tracks for dozens and dozens of track days. I remember thinking that this was a huge risk for them. Many TDOs had failed but they made a huge bold move and bought as much track time as they could. Every track day I went to with them was full. New riders came to the scene and experienced riders came much more often. The market grew and grew.

In the summer its almost possible to ride a UK track any day of the week... This market did not exist before the TDO's grew a huge customer base. I know riders who no longer ride on the road because the track scene is so strong (I did the same for a year). Why bother with the road ?




I hope the NZ track scene continues to improve and attract more riders and the best TDOs prosper. I know there are special circumstances here but the future could be very bright for TDO's and track day enthusiasts alike.

Hampton Downs will be huge - you watch - time to make the right deals.

DVS 69
15th January 2008, 12:19
Firstly ive done a kiwibiker trackday (06) and i found it to run really really smoothly and loads of info / help if you ask. Ive got a little ZXR400 which i brought to have a try (dip my toe in) at F3. Now for me to go to a trackday either Manfield or Taupo ive got 6 hours of driving to get there and back for a start so thats about $150 of gas for the car then the trackday fee ($100-150) plus gas for me bike plus lunch plus the cost of accomidation. I know motorsport is expensive but there aint no way i could persue my passion for riding or racing if the costs went up even more. I do agree it kinda sux that it dont open till 10am and finishes at 4:30pm but i think thats me, Bear in mind im up at 5am and on the road so when i get there i kinda wanna fit as much riding in as humanly possible but thats normaly cos ive waited and waited for weeks for the day to arrive so im sooo keen to ride ride ride, but as my pace has got faster by 4:30pm iam starting to feel a little rooted anyway. I think the way things are is perfect........... We cant all be poms coming here changing our pounds for dollars (ching ching). Us NZers are at the other end of that senario. If things got too expensive it'd be trackdays for all the bloody imports we seem to open the door for in New Zealand. Im a proud KIWI and that bitching dont sit good with me. If its sooo much better in England piss off back there i reckon.:argh:

Id be mega pissed if trackdays went up in price as it would then be a hobbie/sport only for the people with the $$$$ (which dont make them any better riders):headbang:

FROSTY
15th January 2008, 16:05
DVS -hey look I agree that winging for the sake of winging is a waste of space but some of the best improvements Ive made to the KB trackdays have been as a response to someone having the balls to bitch to me.

El Dopa
16th January 2008, 20:19
DVS -hey look I agree that winging for the sake of winging is a waste of space but some of the best improvements Ive made to the KB trackdays have been as a response to someone having the balls to bitch to me.

...then may I suggest (for the purposes of discussion only, dontyaknow) that if your March TD goes ahead, you consider reinstating 4 groups? Slow, Slow/Medium, Medium/Fast, Fast.

Just a thought. With the other changes you made, there should still be plenty of track time for all the sessions.

And my money will be in the bank next week.

Tony.OK
16th January 2008, 21:10
4 groups just doesn't allow enough value for money IMO.Less track time and longer waits in between.
To me 4 groups means more riders which should lower the price of a day.
Taupo in particular is plenty big enough for 40 bikes so there really isn't a need for 4 groups.

kiwifruit
16th January 2008, 21:27
4 groups just doesn't allow enough value for money IMO.Less track time and longer waits in between.
To me 4 groups means more riders which should lower the price of a day.
Taupo in particular is plenty big enough for 40 bikes so there really isn't a need for 4 groups.

4 groups, with motoTT, has come about to help keep the riders riding with others of a similar skill level

as people start doing more trackdays they get better, faster.
more and more "fast" riders means the fast group can get a bit prickly.... add motards to the mix, entering corners "very fast", something had to be done......
lots of complaints about people "going too fast" in the fast group has led to 2 "fast groups"....

as the trackdays become more and more popular you may start seeing 'advanced trackdays" and 'beginner / casual trackdays"

not everyone will be pleased all the time....
i wouldnt mind seeing a free for all trackday set up where you go out anytime and come in anytime, up to 50 bikes on the track etc.... lots of people wouldn't like that im sure

at teh end of the day rider saftey is most important, keeping everyone as safe as is possible in a potentially dangerous environment

i hope that makes some sense :)

Sparky Bills
16th January 2008, 21:34
Some interesting points.

All I can say really is that Wheelies are best done on the track and off the street, and to get yourself to a Honda Riders Club Trackday. Very well run, plus theres Aaron Slight and most importantly..... ME to help you out with riding tips etc :cool:
And the lunches you get are fantastic! Not just a sausage in bread either.:2thumbsup

DVS 69
17th January 2008, 09:45
Yes them Honda trackdays are awesum ive done about 6 of them and it is good having aaron and others there, he helped me out an it was good as. Oh and the lunches ................. Bloody good dont think i even seen a sausage lol i went for the steak and chicken skewers lol ........... nice salads too. It really does feel quite like family where everyones looked after. Honda and Kiwibiker days are the best ive done, so it'l be intresting to see how this motott one is on the 26th as it'l be my 1st with them. Ive done a few Bike club trackdays that wernt quite as good. But hey i not complain as track time is track time and its the most fun ya can have with pants on lol. I love being around like minded people and generaly everybody is approachable and friendly at every trackday ive been to, its kinda like my new addiction :yeah:

Mort
17th January 2008, 22:28
I think the 3 x 20 minute session format is best.


The sessions are just long enough - I find 25 mins too long
with the 4 x 20 format there's too much sitting around between track sessions (1 hour if things are going well - longer if they don't) Lunchtimes seem to last for ever...
with the late starts and early finish 5 sessions is a maximum.... if there is a problem on track 4 sessions is probable.... thats not a lot of track time...
I don't think there's a need for 4 groups on a skills basis. 3 Groups works fine. The only issue (I suggest) is with large numbers of Super Motards. I would restrict them to the fast group unless there is a convincing reason for a rider to be in a slower group. For a novice rider they can be an un-nerving distraction...



:Oi:

BTW..As a response to DVS69 - I opened this thread to open a debate on improving track days for all... I think your comments towards me personally show more about your mentality than they show about me (of which you know nothing) .

If you want to start a pomme bashing thread, go ahead... I'll even post there myself but I doubt we'd agree on anything....
:Offtopic:


.

xvfrona
17th January 2008, 22:57
I'm an ex pat brit, moved to NZ 3 years ago.
There appears to be a malaise running through this thread between Kiwis and ex pats/ NZ track days and UK track days even NZ/UK. Yes the track days in the UK are better run and better attended than here (not personal knowledge - but through friends) but so they shud b.
Motorcycling in the UK is no longer a cheaper alternative to owning a car, it's a hobby, a pastime, most bikes in the uk are purchased with 'disposable income' and only ridden at week ends and on track days. I couldn't afford track days in the uk, but I can here ( even though the NZ wage is, in real term well below that of the UK, even taking into account todays exchange rate).
Pit garages, sod it, you want one pay for one, $100 for the day only equates to 39.98GBD (at todays rate - but the dollar is strong) and is a bargain. If you don't want to pay for the garage buy an eazi up and a generator. It ain't rocket science.
I for one feel absolutely shagged after a track day (and a race day), but then I'm nearly 50, smoke and drink too much (it also takes me two hours to get to either Manfield or Taupo - and the same home again). VMCC run very well organised race days PCMCC not so organised. Manfield run 20 min sessions btn 9 a.m and 4 p.m most Fridays for competition cars and bikes. I have been to a couple and enjoyed and benefited from them. I have also been to 'properly organised' track days. They may have been basic, with a lack of marshalls (and I binned a bike on unflagged oil!!!!!) but are realistically, good value for money. Yes, you might be able to convince the organisers to improve the facilities on the day, yes the price will increase but the attendance numbers will do the opposite. this will do two things. It will give those with the funds extra track time, in the short term (yippee for them), but ultimately lead to the demise of the track day as financially unviable for the organisers and why should they, as a business, loose money to satisfy our need for speed/fun or whatever floats your boat. As a club 'racer' the costs are getting worse (at the moment I can convince she who must be obeyed they are justifiable!!!!). This means that my only two wheeled fun in future is likely to be track days. I for one would not like to see these extra 'benefits' introduced to curtail my two wheeled pleasure any further as I may be forced to return to the road which is a very dangerous place to be in this 'I didn't see him officer' world.
A good discussion thread, producing valid points, interspersed with 'your only a brit toughen up' attitude. Better we work together folks to improve things slowly, safely and surely, than to rock the boat and then watch it sink from view completely, what we have is better than nothing,which is what we will have if we are not VERY CAREFUL. (Oh and I don't care if you agree or disagree, this is my point of view, to which I am entitled). Thanks for listening, ride ever day as if it is your last because one day it will be!

xvfrona
17th January 2008, 22:59
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

DVS 69
18th January 2008, 07:49
Mort. Hey i do get what your getting at but im thinking of the cost, i know of lots of people who wouldnt go if costs went up too much more. As for myself maybe i could be a lil mental but so what its a straight world without twistys lol.:Oi:

Mort
18th January 2008, 12:05
$200 For a garage (which is part of the facilities of the track) is outrageous. Its twice the price of the track day itself from which the TDO takes a profit. Why is it that people here accept this when the rest of the world get garages as part of the track facilities ??? Remember the garages are built and cost nothing to open them up.


You are being ripped off !!!

This should be challenged by the customers and the track day organisers. I think its piss poor that so many here think that what is going on is acceptable.

Given the circumstances, of the rip off track charges for garages and apparent malaise amongst riders to speak up, I think there is room for something which may suit all.

The last track day I saw there was only one garage in use by 4 riders who (presumably) paid $200 between them for the use of the garage. So the track made $200 from its garage hire.

If the TDO offers an optional additional charge to riders for garage use they could cut a deal with the track to rent out more garages (preferably at a lower rate than $200) and fit say 6 riders per garage in. The track would make more money from its garages, The TDO makes a few bucks, the riders who want garage space would get garage space at a lower rate and riders who don’t want garage space can do their own thing.

Example :


100 riders on a track day.
TDO negotiates a rate and the track allows garage rental at say $100 per garage.
Say 30 riders want garages and pay $20 per rider (pre booked or otherwise)
Track makes $500 for its garages (more than they do at the moment - so they are happy)
TDO makes $100 for the effort of organising (more profit for a little effort)
70 riders are unaffected and are happy
29 riders are happy in their garages
one miserable Pomme grudgingly accepts and shuts the fuck up about garages. Its still a rip off but its a compromise.

Perhaps Frosty or Jorja could comment on the feasability this...


On the matter of track time – If the track is available from 9 – 4:30 then that is the time the track should be open. (3 x 20 minutes is best)...I live almost 5 hours from Taupo and last time I went I arrived at 10:30.. I missed track time but I didn’t expect the entire event to wait until I got there. The way to go for me is to travel the night before and stay over (Camping is Cheap !!!). Where you live and how far away from the track you are is NOT a matter for the event, the TDO or other riders.

Track time is what you pay for. Track time is everything.

El Dopa
18th January 2008, 20:59
4 groups just doesn't allow enough value for money IMO.Less track time and longer waits in between.
To me 4 groups means more riders which should lower the price of a day.
Taupo in particular is plenty big enough for 40 bikes so there really isn't a need for 4 groups.

Well, last Frosty Trackday, he had it organised so that the first riders of the 'next' group were heading onto the track as the last riders of the 'previous' session were coming in. So the waiting-in-between time was cut sustantially. There were a few other changes as well.

These changes meant that there were five sessions per group instead of the four at the previous trackday. I was so knackered I didn't go out the 5th time.

The medium group (of fast/medium/slow) was just a little bit too crowded for my tastes - it picked up riders that were slightly too fast for the slow group, and riders that were slightly too slow for the fast group. It was twice the size of the other two groups.

Just thinking out loud, really.

FROSTY
19th January 2008, 09:44
Im going to be watching that a bit more closely ED--moving folk up and down to suit their speed.
The way i see it if someone is out in the med group and lapping in fast group times they should be in the fast group

Beemer
21st January 2008, 11:43
Mort, regardless of your nationality, you ARE coming across as a whinger I'm afraid. The people who run track days in NZ are not doing it as a business, many are run by clubs as a way of raising funds for their members. Our club runs one (two a year if we are lucky and can get the track for a second day) and believe me, a shit load of work is put in by many people long before the day, on the day and afterwards. We usually have a paid marshaling crew and also an ambulance - which (thankfully) usually sits there all day without being used. A second ambulance would be a huge waste of resources considering Feilding probably doesn't have a lot to spare in the first place.

Prior to the day we have to organise what day suits the majority of people and doesn't clash with other events so we get a good turn out. We then have to book the track (not an easy task as it is used by many other groups all year round), book the marshals, the ambulance, arrange publicity, organise catering, etc. Oh, and pay deposits, before we have taken a single dollar. And if it rains, we could end up making a loss if few people turn up.

Club members have to be at the track about 7am to open it, make sure the track has been swept (for that read: sweep the track), the caterers have arrived, set up scrutineering, etc. That does NOT happen in five minutes, so there is no way we could start the sessions much earlier than we do.

We run four sessions - slow, medium, fast, race - because that is what people want. All sessions are full, so we're obviously doing something right. We try and have the next group lined up ready to go as soon as the last rider from the previous group comes in, and we also try and clear any accidents or broken down bikes off the track as soon as possible.

We used to run longer sessions but found that was when people crashed. They got tired as the day wore on and lost concentration - and that happened in all sessions. So now we stick to (I think) 15 minutes and people at our last track day said that was a good length. Of course the faster riders get in more laps, so it all balances out.

As our members have been doing all the hard work during the day, we close the track to the public at about 4pm to allow those members time on the track. Wow, a whole half hour or so when you guys have had all day. We have to clear the track by a certain time - probably due to noise restrictions (which are applicable to the bikes during the track day anyway), but also so the track owners can inspect it and lock up after we leave.

Other track day organisers may do things differently but in our case we are all volunteers. We don't get paid for our work but I still think we do a great job most of the time.

We'd love to have instructors but that would add to the cost. Sure, some racers turn up to track days and help out other riders but that isn't their job and they can't always be there.

Every English person we have spoken to about track days in the UK has said that they are bloody expensive, there are heaps of riders there and they don't get much track time. That is their opinion, just as you have yours. There are probably some track days that are better than others and they may not have experienced a good one.

We get a lot of good reports from riders who attend our track days and for $40 I don't think any of them can complain. We try and run a well organised and safe day for all and I think we are doing that on the whole. It sounds like the track days Frosty organises are run along similar lines, so your criticism, while valid in some instances, is a little misguided. You have to remember mate, this is New Zealand, not Britain, and if you think we're doing such a bad job, either put your hand up and work to help make them better - or piss off back to where you came from.

chris
21st January 2008, 13:06
Mort, regardless of your nationality, you ARE coming across as a whinger I'm afraid. The people who run track days in NZ are not doing it as a business, many are run by clubs as a way of raising funds for their members. Our club runs one (two a year if we are lucky and can get the track for a second day) and believe me, a shit load of work is put in by many people long before the day, on the day and afterwards. We usually have a paid marshaling crew and also an ambulance - which (thankfully) usually sits there all day without being used. A second ambulance would be a huge waste of resources considering Feilding probably doesn't have a lot to spare in the first place.

Prior to the day we have to organise what day suits the majority of people and doesn't clash with other events so we get a good turn out. We then have to book the track (not an easy task as it is used by many other groups all year round), book the marshals, the ambulance, arrange publicity, organise catering, etc. Oh, and pay deposits, before we have taken a single dollar. And if it rains, we could end up making a loss if few people turn up.

Club members have to be at the track about 7am to open it, make sure the track has been swept (for that read: sweep the track), the caterers have arrived, set up scrutineering, etc. That does NOT happen in five minutes, so there is no way we could start the sessions much earlier than we do.

We run four sessions - slow, medium, fast, race - because that is what people want. All sessions are full, so we're obviously doing something right. We try and have the next group lined up ready to go as soon as the last rider from the previous group comes in, and we also try and clear any accidents or broken down bikes off the track as soon as possible.

We used to run longer sessions but found that was when people crashed. They got tired as the day wore on and lost concentration - and that happened in all sessions. So now we stick to (I think) 15 minutes and people at our last track day said that was a good length. Of course the faster riders get in more laps, so it all balances out.

As our members have been doing all the hard work during the day, we close the track to the public at about 4pm to allow those members time on the track. Wow, a whole half hour or so when you guys have had all day. We have to clear the track by a certain time - probably due to noise restrictions (which are applicable to the bikes during the track day anyway), but also so the track owners can inspect it and lock up after we leave.

Other track day organisers may do things differently but in our case we are all volunteers. We don't get paid for our work but I still think we do a great job most of the time.

We'd love to have instructors but that would add to the cost. Sure, some racers turn up to track days and help out other riders but that isn't their job and they can't always be there.

Every English person we have spoken to about track days in the UK has said that they are bloody expensive, there are heaps of riders there and they don't get much track time. That is their opinion, just as you have yours. There are probably some track days that are better than others and they may not have experienced a good one.

We get a lot of good reports from riders who attend our track days and for $40 I don't think any of them can complain. We try and run a well organised and safe day for all and I think we are doing that on the whole. It sounds like the track days Frosty organises are run along similar lines, so your criticism, while valid in some instances, is a little misguided. You have to remember mate, this is New Zealand, not Britain, and if you think we're doing such a bad job, either put your hand up and work to help make them better - or piss off back to where you came from.

Nicely put. Pretty much mirrors how I was going to respond, with the exception that the only track day 'employee' at the Suzuki track days that gets to put some laps in is Todd!

Mort
21st January 2008, 14:41
You have to remember mate, this is New Zealand, not Britain, and if you think we're doing such a bad job, either put your hand up and work to help make them better - or piss off back to where you came from.



Beemer - I think that is bloody unfair. At no time did I ever criticise any TDO or say a bad job was being done.. (I don't even know who you are or what track you are talking about !!!) By raising these points I am "putting my hand up" and I would do whatever possible to improve the track day scene in NZ.

To quote myself in the first post of this thread :


I think there is a need to open up a few points on how track days are run here. Before I begin I want to say that my 3 days have been very enjoyable and I dont want to come across as some sort of whinging pomme... The points below dont stop me from riding, I just raise them because I think things could improve. I also recognise that there is a much smaller market here and there are cost implications (which I will cover below) ...

Anyway...I love track days and I think I can add something or stimulate some positive debate... simple as that.

I raised a number of points, a few of which I have conceded and agreed with after responses from various people. There are a few points remaining about track time and garages which I think could be improved upon. By raising those points I am expressing a view (based on experience). I am not having a go at anyone. I am trying to encourage a minor change that is all.

If you can't appreciate the spirit in which I raised these points then thats your problem mate.... At least I can say I have put my hand up and spoken with respect to anyone prepared to talk about the NZ trackday scene..

Mort

chris
21st January 2008, 14:56
I live almost 5 hours from Taupo and last time I went I arrived at 10:30.. I missed track time but I didn’t expect the entire event to wait until I got there. The way to go for me is to travel the night before and stay over (Camping is Cheap !!!). Where you live and how far away from the track you are is NOT a matter for the event, the TDO or other riders.
And I wouldn't have to expect to hang around at signing on for three hours waiting for you to turn up for your personal safety briefing.

Our riders briefings start at 9.15am with the first group on track at as close to 9.30am as possible. We stop for lunch at 12.30pm and resume at 1.00pm (approximate) before flagging of the last session at around 4.15pm. We run four groups and every group gets five twenty minute sessions in that time. Is one hour and fourty minutes not enough? To achieve this we have the first bike of the next session on track before the last bike of the previous session is off the track (unless there is a bike to be recovered).

Pit garages. The circuit (Taupo) charges seperately for them. It is their policy and a policy that they are entitled to enforce. I would love to have 5 garages included in the cost of hire and let everyone use them, but they're not, so we don't. And you know what? I don't get asked about the availability of garages.

Mort
21st January 2008, 15:27
Hey Chris.... cut the attitude. I made a suggestion that is all. Perhaps its one which could work.

chris
21st January 2008, 15:37
Hey Chris.... cut the attitude. I made a suggestion that is all. Perhaps its one which could work.
What attitude? I've made a couple of points on our track day format in answer to some of your points. I encourage feedback and get lots, but, I never get asked about the availability of pit garages. Perhaps most Suzuki owners are hard buggers who don't mind a bit of cold wind or rain...

Mort
21st January 2008, 15:53
Ok - I apologise Chris.

What group are you from (Suzuki owners club ?)

chris
21st January 2008, 15:55
My day job is Kiwi Rider mag. In my spare time, (not much) together with four others, we run Suzuki owner track days as well as other motorcycle related events, either on or off road.

Mort
21st January 2008, 15:59
Cool - I'd have thought there was an article in this subject somewhere... "UK vs NZ trackday scene comparison" etc... but I bet you get people saying that all the time.

chris
22nd January 2008, 09:44
Cool - I'd have thought there was an article in this subject somewhere... "UK vs NZ trackday scene comparison"
In all honesty, why? I'm not sure why a track day regular in NZ would want to know how a UK track day works. We put a report in Kiwi Rider after every Suzuki track day.
The UK is a different market with a significantly larger motorcycle riding population; a large percentage of which see a motorcycle as a disposable income item. Brands Hatch, Donington, Silverstone, Thruxton, Oulton Park, Mallory Park, Cadwell, Croft all have one thing in common; tens of thousands of motorcyclists are most likely within an hours ride of all of them. It's three hours to Taupo minimum and at least double that to Manfeild from Auckland. So factor in fuel costs and the likelihood that most will stop over a night either before or after a track day the costs start to rise so most will see coughing up an extra $50 for a garage space as a luxury.
But, if I get enough requests, I'll do something about garages with the proviso that I'd have to get the riders to fill them. No point in taking $50 off someone for a spot in a garage when they book a track day only to tell them on the day that they are now gonna have to pay $200 because nobody else wants the space.

Beemer
22nd January 2008, 10:45
Beemer - I think that is bloody unfair. At no time did I ever criticise any TDO or say a bad job was being done.. (I don't even know who you are or what track you are talking about !!!) By raising these points I am "putting my hand up" and I would do whatever possible to improve the track day scene in NZ.

I'm sorry but I don't think I am being unfair. Yes, you may have raised some valid points and they have been responded to by others, but on the whole you seem to be saying "we do it much better back home" and THAT is unfair. The UK has a much larger population and you can't compare the two. As mentioned earlier, the majority of track days in NZ are not run as a business but more as a service to motorcyclists.

I am a member of the Central Districts Motorcycle Touring Club Inc, which holds at least one track day a year at Manfeild in Feilding. This year we are lucky enough to book two days and our second track day is on March 2.

By "putting your hand up" I meant actually stepping forward and offering to help at a track day rather than just stating your views. Yes, stating your views is the first step, but I bet you would soon realise that a lot of the things you mention cost money and are not feasible here in NZ.

As for the garages, as Chris said, they are not part of the track hire and if you really want a garage, you have to pay for it. Including it in the price of the track day would never work unless you had enough garages for everyone and I doubt any track here has 150 garages, which is how many people we have attending our track days. Yes, people share, but not everyone plays nicely so that could lead to fights!

Mort
22nd January 2008, 11:47
OK, so the UK has a much more evolved track day scene where as the NZ scene (by the admission of many here) is evolving. My comments were intended to assist in the evolution by describing how things work elsewhere.

Also, Beemer, I don't think I need to physically help organise a track day in order to comment on it. If I had a track on my doorstep (which I don't) I would be interested though.

With regard to garages, UK tracks have never charged for them as an extra. The fact that NZ tracks charge (a lot !!) here IS worthy of comment. The garage charges clearly don't work for the customers or the track so why not open them up or lower the charges to a point where they are affordable. I think that is a valid question for TDO's and track owners. As it stands, it is a rip off if you did but know it.