Australia to bug bikes?

[Tank]

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22924841-8362,00.html

I know some of you will just love this....

[Ocean1]

Connect it to a GPS and you don't need the cop at all.

Nice wee letter from a call centre in Delli would be the first you'd know...

[Usarka]

Time checks between two fixed speed cameras.

Known distance / time, = average speed.

So even if you slow down for both cameras, whammo you get a ticket based on speed between two cameras.

[FilthyLuka]

they are going to bug bikes... uhhuh... so what about your average joe with some mechanical knowlege? #snip snip# done, no more bug.

[Usarka]

they are going to bug bikes... uhhuh... so what about your average joe with some mechanical knowlege? #snip snip# done, no more bug.

And your average traffic patrol with a receiver. Hmm no signal.... #whoop whoop# busted, no more cash.

[Ocean1]

Time checks between two fixed speed cameras.

Known distance / time, = average speed.

So even if you slow down for both cameras, whammo you get a ticket based on speed between two cameras.

Don't even need the camera dude, just strategically placed sensors to read the chip. Solution is simple: stop regularly for a break.

About every second pub should cover it.

[blue eyed savage]

if thay put something in by bike i dont want its comeing off ASAP.
how will thay know if u dont have it in.
sounds dumb to me

[EnzoYug]

Time checks between two fixed speed cameras.

Known distance / time, = average speed.

So even if you slow down for both cameras, whammo you get a ticket based on speed between two cameras.

NICE! :eek5:

Unfortunately your idea breaks every convention of 'proven beyond reasonable doubt' ever made. Reasonable doubt is reason we have cameras - there needs to be proof that the bike was in that location at the time stated and doing that speed.

It's not good enough to say "hey we know you speed, now pay". You have to get caught.

Otherwise we might as well have a chip in the bike that records every time the bike exceeds 100ks and it gets read once a month along with the gas/electricity metre. Fines just get added to the monthly bill. :D Easy!

There more holes to poke at I'm sure, but that wont stop someone in government from adopting your idea. Huwa!

[Tank]

if thay put something in by bike i dont want its comeing off ASAP.
how will thay know if u dont have it in.
sounds dumb to me

Simple - they put receivers in the patrol cars. When you ride past - no indicator showing that you have the 'chip' then you are busted.

Whats to bet that the fines will be equal to the cost of a small island in the caribbean?

[imdying]

Unfortunately your idea breaks every convention of 'proven beyond reasonable doubt' ever made. Reasonable doubt is reason we have cameras - there needs to be proof that the bike was in that location at the time stated and doing that speed.Don't know what the heck you're on about... an impossible average speed between to points is beyond reasonable doubt... Unless you've a magical bike?

[Ocean1]

NICE! :eek5:

Unfortunately your idea breaks every convention of 'proven beyond reasonable doubt' ever made.

Where've you been dude? it's already fatally cracked.

"Estimated to have been traveling at..." has been good enough for a conviction for some time now.

[scumdog]

Simple - they put receivers in the patrol cars. When you ride past - no indicator showing that you have the 'chip' then you are busted.

Whats to bet that the fines will be equal to the cost of a small island in the caribbean?

And that you will likely now have no bike to worry about whether it has a 'bug in it or not..:eek5:

[Ocean1]

Brings a whole new meaning to the possibilities in the term "re-chip" don't it...

[Ixion]

Good luck trying to put such a device on some of my bikes.

"Battery ? Nah, sorry mate, not got one". "Wadda y'mean, there's no 6V version". "Can you say 'vibration' old chap?" .

[James Deuce]

NICE! :eek5:

Unfortunately your idea breaks every convention of 'proven beyond reasonable doubt' ever made. Reasonable doubt is reason we have cameras - there needs to be proof that the bike was in that location at the time stated and doing that speed.

It's not good enough to say "hey we know you speed, now pay". You have to get caught.

Otherwise we might as well have a chip in the bike that records every time the bike exceeds 100ks and it gets read once a month along with the gas/electricity metre. Fines just get added to the monthly bill. :D Easy!

There more holes to poke at I'm sure, but that wont stop someone in government from adopting your idea. Huwa!

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahaha

So where's the reasonable doubt at a drink driving checkpoint? The vast majority of people who are processed have never deliberately gone out of their way to break any laws, but the Government are suspicious that they are recidivist drunk drivers who don't wear seatbelts and beat their children. So civil rights are suspended while a checkpoint is up.

The same logic will be applied to the "speeding" issue. As the "official" in the document stated speed is a big factor in motorcycle crashes (in their opinion of course - intersections and group rides are far more dangerous than riding "handily" on your own) so we can justify monitoring the whereabouts of our "citizens".

The best thing to do is buy a smaller bike.

[SPman]

Being trialed in Queensland - the state that brought in the requirement of having to have a car license for a year, before you can get a bike license!

[EnzoYug]

Don't know what the heck you're on about... an impossible average speed between to points is beyond reasonable doubt... Unless you've a magical bike?

Yup - mine does corners! :D

Ok here's a diagram, (ignoring the reality of one-way streets / realistic speed) and if it doesn't make sense then forget I said anything at all....

[Tank]

Depends on how and where they place them.

But they are there and they work (well for the police anyhows).

This is what they use for the same thing in the UK:

http://www.speedcamerasuk.com/SPECS.htm

The only difference is that this uses your numberplace - Aust are getting V2 that also registers a chip so bikes with no frontmounted numberplace can be pinged also.

[Tank]

to save you clicking on the link:

SPECS average speed cameras are fitted either at the roadside or in the central reservation (as pictured below) a set distance apart to create a speed controlled zone, or where appropriate, groups of cameras can be linked to create a speed controlled network.

As vehicles pass between the entry and exit camera points their number plates are digitally recorded, whether speeding or not. Then, by ANPR recognition, the images on the video of matching number plates are paired up, and because each image carries a date and time stamp, the computer can then work out your average speed between the cameras. There is no film used for SPECS.

and here is a great quote from how useful this system is in Manchester (yes just the one city): Quote from the manufactures of SPECS system:

"The SPECS system is so efficient and user friendly that Manchester CTO processed 2,500 offences in 6 man-hours"."

[Ixion]

Some other nasty notiuons here (http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/resources/file/eba1ba06ba8f584/Hansard_1_RSS_Feb_06.pdf.)(Just search for 'motorcycle')

[Tank]

reading more about them - they REALLY work - in fact this system has caught the most speeders in the UK - from the FAQ on the above site"

Which UK speed camera has caught the most motorists?

A single speed camera in Nottinghamshire has caught almost 76,000 motorists in five years. The SPECS speed camera, on the A610, has caught almost a third of the speeding drivers in the county and has resulted in £4.2m in fines. The SPECS "time-over-distance" cameras measures how long it takes to pass between two points on a road, read read more about SPECS speed cameras.

[avgas]

And your average traffic patrol with a receiver. Hmm no signal.... #whoop whoop# busted, no more cash.
Silly man, its the same now......no identification.....why stop for them?

[Deano]

The best thing to do is buy a smaller bike.

Or go racing. Then you can go nuts.

[Usarka]

Silly man, its the same now......no identification.....why stop for them?

The reciever in the cop car tells them who you are. So if you do a runner they've effectively got your plate number....

Same if your riding in the opposite direction at 160km/hr. Radar + tagged id = bye bye licence without the need for a chase.....

[imdying]

Yup - mine does corners! :D

Ok here's a diagram, (ignoring the reality of one-way streets / realistic speed) and if it doesn't make sense then forget I said anything at all....

Riiight... I'm not what point that makes? In that example, it's going to be getting between those two points in 1 minute that they're going to be interested in. All that picture shows is a situation where their tracking method is going to be ineffective.

[quallman1234]

Simple - they put receivers in the patrol cars. When you ride past - no indicator showing that you have the 'chip' then you are busted.

Whats to bet that the fines will be equal to the cost of a small island in the caribbean?

Make a switch, not hard.

[Ixion]

The reciever in the cop car tells them who you are. So if you do a runner they've effectively got your plate number....

Same if your riding in the opposite direction at 160km/hr. Radar + tagged id = bye bye licence without the need for a chase.....


My understanding is that the SPECs system uses visual number plate identification - ie a camera reads the number plate and a computer matches up the image with a number plate database.

RFID tags do not (at present anyway) have anything like the range for that scenario. Also, if they did have a long enough range, very often there would be more than one tag in range, and no way to tell which tag belonged to the radar reading. In theory, repeat theory, in a lab, UHF passive RF tags can manage about 20 feet range. But in practice , much less, probably only inches. It also depends enormously on the material in the surroundings, and whether there is some sort of antenna or not.

[avgas]

The reciever in the cop car tells them who you are. So if you do a runner they've effectively got your plate number....

Same if your riding in the opposite direction at 160km/hr. Radar + tagged id = bye bye licence without the need for a chase.....
Info on receiver is only as good as the packet being sent.....ever broken a radio....its not too difficult

[avgas]

RFID tags do not (at present anyway) have anything like the range for that scenario.
RFID does not like going faster than 2m/sec so we are fairly safe there.
Most RFID setups have a slow conveyor or even a dead stop (eg bag stop at the end of a shoot) to verify the data.
The fastest i have ever seen RFID work was about 4m/sec.....even then it had about a 40% failure rate.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Connect it to a GPS and you don't need the cop at all.

Nice wee letter from a call centre in Delli would be the first you'd know...

for every technological thing like this there is somebody somewhere who can fix or jam or bugger it up or make it read like all you've done is gone to work and back instead of doing 280kph down colombo street on the back wheel sculling a bottle of gin and hitting blind autistic schoolkids and their pets with a polo mallet.

[Steam]

RFID tags do not (at present anyway) have anything like the range for that scenario.
But in the case of a proposed system for cars, they don't need to be Passive tags, they can be powered by the bike's electrics and therefore powerful. And the tags can send out the rego number of the car / number plate / what have you.

[jrandom]

But in the case of a proposed system for cars, they don't need to be Passive tags, they can be powered by the bike's electrics and therefore powerful. And the tags can send out the rego number of the car / number plate / what have you.

Singapore uses a system along those lines for motorway tolls. Transceivers on bridges and whatnot debit money from your vehicle's prepaid toll account as you drive past. If you don't top up on time and drive through without enough credit, a fine is issued.

I know little of the system architecture, in terms of whether the smarts are contained in the car unit or in a centrally networked system between the sensors (I would suspect the latter, with car units just broadcasting an ID and being affixed to the car in some tamper-resistant fashion), but, well, there you go. Big Brother is already watching.

[mstriumph]

the more determined THEY get
the more determined I get
ho hum
:wacko:

[Hitcher]

The no-front-plates-on-motorcycles issue has been a supporating sore on the arse of Australian traffic "planners" for some years. If RFID won't work, then sure as eggs they'll find something that will. Or bikers will have to fit forward-facing regos. And given that our traffic boneheads looks to Australia for inspiration, be afraid...

[James Deuce]

It seems to me that in these days of high definition digital cameras, a longitudinal sticker on the mudguard would be good enough to be picked up by a speed camera.

Why go for the difficult options first?

[The Pastor]

if they fit devices to your bike, surely you may happen to "drop the bike" or spill petrol on said device. just beat it with a hammer, she'll be right. then every time you get one, say it broke and make them order you a new one _b

Knowing them, they will make you pay for the units tho, and have a law saying you must have a working on on ur bike at all times.

[davereid]

You guys are wayyyyy behind. The Electronic Toll road issue has already solved most of these problems, and the infrastructure is ALREADY in place.

All we lack is the electronic tags.

Don't believe me ?

Next time you are on your bike, on ANY state highway, and you come to an intersection, slow down so you have time to look for nutters AND little green boxes.

You will see a small, light green box, at almost all intersections, one in each possible direction of travel.

I'll take a photo of one tomorrow and post it, but just open your eyes, and you will see them.

What do they do ?

They are the backbone of electronically tolled roads and automated speeding tickets.

They already know that they will face a backlash of disconnected Electronic Tags - so they have built the enforcement system first.. before even discussing the tags.

How do they work ?

Sensors in the road at every intersection record your vehicles axel weights, speed, and axel spacing. So, without even needing to put a tag in your vehicle, or read your number plate, they can follow you on your ride. Even make a very good guess as to the make and model of your vehicle.

So when you disco the electronic tag, you will be easy to follow and ticket.

Google "Hyder consulting" "Intelligent transport systems " etc.

Hyder Consulting recenly purged their website of all the data, they don't even mention NZ now, but some of their promo pics still show NZ scenes.

[Ocean1]

Hmmm...

OK, off the top of me 'ead.

Ditch all the dainty delicate stuff like the ECU and related transducers.

Install a magneto.
Install a fucking huge EMP generator, triggered by proximity to anything small, green and attempting to read RFtags. :done:

Edit: all's fair in love, war and tax avoidance.

[jimbo600]

Time checks between two fixed speed cameras.

Known distance / time, = average speed.

So even if you slow down for both cameras, whammo you get a ticket based on speed between two cameras.

This does happen in some parts of the world via toll bridges. Some clever bastard has setup a coffee cart in front of the toll gate and folk park up and have a brew thereby lowering their average speed.

Now RFID chips could be argued to be some form of vehicle tracking, and if so the authorities would require a warrant in order to use them on your car/bike etc.

[James Deuce]

authorities would require a warrant in order to use them on your car/bike etc.
No, just a law change that all NZers will support because they allow every Big Brother move to happen provided some brainless intellectual tells them it's all about safety. The statistics support it. Speeding kills.

[Usarka]

And because we'll be told "if you're not breaking the law you have nothing to worry about"...

and another bolt's tightened.

[Usarka]

Thanks davereid... it looks like it really is a conspiracy this time.

Plenty of documents referring to Hyder... Like this one http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/research/reports/302.pdf skip to page 90 for the stuff on speed enforcement.....

[Monsterbishi]

Next time you are on your bike, on ANY state highway, and you come to an intersection, slow down so you have time to look for nutters AND little green boxes.

You will see a small, light green box, at almost all intersections, one in each possible direction of travel.

Whilst that technology is available for the counter setups, New Zealand doesn't use it with the exception of counting traffic volume to establish AADT(Annual average daily traffic) Which we use for calculating neat things like delay times in large worksites, wear rates for the paving, etc.

In my experience working as a STMS on the transit network, being present for the installation of the loops(The things you see in the road that look like large octagons drawn on the ground next to the green boxes) - I am yet to see a site with the secondary induction lines to be able to measure distance/time.

[avgas]

Hmmm...

OK, off the top of me 'ead.

Ditch all the dainty delicate stuff like the ECU and related transducers.

Install a magneto.
Install a fucking huge EMP generator, triggered by proximity to anything small, green and attempting to read RFtags. :done:

Edit: all's fair in love, war and tax avoidance.
Oh god, we are going back to those ol' spitfire HT Leads again aren't we????? And i just but that humming from my mates mini out of my head too...

[avgas]

Who says it not allready in your fuel injected bike.
GOD BLESS CARBY's

[luked]

so if you were to go through a 100km zone and were say speeding a lil...

and when you go through the next camera wouldnt this only work on a highway because all the different ways you could go through different roads ect and would different speed zone effect this were would they give you the fine???

for example your average speed was 110km for example and there are a few 50km zones in there so we are goin to charge you for 60km over the speed limit???

[James Deuce]

Isn't it a brilliant way of raising revenue?

[Monsterbishi]

Best thing about transponders is how their output can be so easily tampered with, wouldn't take much to create a 'simulator' that would just output false data all day long, so regardless of what you're doing, all they receive is you riding in circles, doing under the speed limit...

At my old work not long ago, one of our trucks GPS tracking system started acting up, first we knew about it was our head office calling up wondering why they were tracking our 11 Ton truck doing 370kph :wari: :2thumbsup :banana:

[James Deuce]

At my old work not long ago, one of our trucks GPS tracking system started acting up, first we knew about it was our head office calling up wondering why they were tracking our 11 Ton truck doing 370kph :wari: :2thumbsup :banana:

I've gone off bikes. Too slow.

Got any jobs?

[Monsterbishi]

We ended up telling them the system couldn't be right, that once the truck got up to 250kph it went like a dog :-)

[Winter]

Whilst that technology is available for the counter setups, New Zealand doesn't use it with the exception of counting traffic volume to establish AADT(Annual average daily traffic) Which we use for calculating neat things like delay times in large worksites, wear rates for the paving, etc.



Whilst I don't doubt this is true, there is plenty of evidence to support daverids theory that they are building the system around us.

From an old hyder project sheet:

Hyder has a strong intelligent transport systems (ITS)
background, both internationally and in New Zealand. In
addition to our specialist toll systems expertise, we also have
experience in the development of the National ITS Strategy,
ITS facility development and deployment.
Hyder is currently engaged in the development of a national
electronic toll system for New Zealand; and with partners IBM,
is also developing a centralised national (web-based) variable
message sign management system for Transit New Zealand.

[Swoop]

Isn't it a brilliant way of raising revenue?
Raising revenue?? This gubbinment seems unable to spend the surplus it already has!

Hyder is currently engaged in the development of a national
electronic toll system for New Zealand; and with partners IBM,
The same successful company that brought you the INCIS police computer network...:laugh:

[James Deuce]

Raising revenue?? This gubbinment seems unable to spend the surplus it already has!


I'm not following your point. Isn't the point of a corporation to demonstrate profitable behaviour for their shareholders?

[Swoop]

I'm not following your point. Isn't the point of a corporation to demonstrate profitable behaviour for their shareholders?
A corporation or a monopoly?

[mstriumph]

Best thing about transponders is how their output can be so easily tampered with, wouldn't take much to create a 'simulator' that would just output false data all day long, so regardless of what you're doing, all they receive is you riding in circles, doing under the speed limit...
.....................

that'd be a nice little earner .......... :whistle:

[PirateJafa]

Don't know what the heck you're on about... an impossible average speed between to points is beyond reasonable doubt... Unless you've a magical bike?

I'd just find another biker with a bike that is close enough to look identical, grab a second number plate for the bike (someone stole the first one sir), and throw that on the back of their bike.

Then we'd both go and get snapped by a camera at 115 or something fast enough to get snapped, slow enough that it is still moderately affordable. Twenty minutes apart and maybe 100km/h between us... "yes officer, I really think that a two-fiddy bandit can reach, let alone maintain three hundred km/h. Either it would point out that the system wasn't infallible, or I'd get a ticket that I would frame on the fucking wall.

Win/win for me, because that is how much a 1984-esque idea like this would enrage me.

(Of course, this ignores the radio chip idea, but I'm sure with a bit of ingenuity a similar plan could be devised.)

[scracha]

if thay put something in by bike i dont want its comeing off ASAP.
how will thay know if u dont have it in.
sounds dumb to me

What...like a big fuggin ugly numberplate?

[grusomhat]

Why are goverments so fucking stupid. Just make the damn speed cameras with cameras on each side with a sort of time delay in between that alters depending on speed. Problem solved, a photo from both sides results in a number plate.

Any holes in that?

[SPman]

Like what they've done here with the 2 way facing mobile speed cameras.....