Driving penalties to get tougher

[Blue Velvet]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4327621a10.html

Driving penalties to get tougher
NZPA | Tuesday, 18 December 2007

The Government is set to toughen up penalties for driving offences.

Prime Minister Helen Clark told journalists yesterday Cabinet had made decisions on "a number" of road safety improvement initiatives.

Transport Safety Minister Harry Duynhoven would announce changes in the run-up to Christmas, she said.

"Its actually legislative changes that are going to be imposed to make it clear that unsafe driving behaviour is going to face more stiff penalties," Miss Clark said.

In July Mr Duynhoven told Parliament's transport committee he would give serious consideration to a New Zealand First Party call for tougher penalties for recidivist drink drivers.

The party wanted first time offenders to get a written warning, have their car clamped on their property on a second offence and lose it altogether if they offended again.

Mr Duynhoven told the committee a range of policy was being considered including young and novice drivers and the graduated licensing system, changing penalties for speeding, intersection and seatbelt offences, drunk driving and motorcycle safety.

[Katman]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4327621a10.html

motorcycle safety.

Don't say you weren't all warned.

[ManDownUnder]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4327621a10.html

motorcycle safety.


... greeeaaaaattt...

One wonders how many motorcyclists are in cabinet.

[Ocean1]

... greeeaaaaattt...

One wonders how many motorcyclists are in cabinet.

And for how long...

[Swoop]

"Its actually legislative changes that are going to be imposed to make it clear that unsafe driving behaviour is going to face more stiff penalties," Miss Clark said.
Whaddaya mean "Miss"?


















"I'm sorry, I have a cold".

[RantyDave]

"Its actually legislative changes that are going to be imposed to make it clear that unsafe driving behaviour is going to face more stiff penalties," Miss Clark said.
"For instance, it has come to my attention that some fucking twat has been placing tensioned steel cables between lanes at accident black spots. That this would be the last thing you'd want to see had you just tucked the front on some of Fulton Hogan's finest appears to have escaped their tiny minds. It is the intention of this government to ... oh, look, shiny thing"

Those may not have been her exact words.

Dave

[Morcs]

So this is instead of announcing a Tax increase?

Id better get a decent radar detector in the new year...

[SPman]

What does increasing penalties have to do with road safety?

It never ceases to amaze me, that governments around the world equate tougher laws and penalties with "safety" - like a bully threatening its victim!

You do this or else! A legalised protection racket!

They did the same over here last year - fines and demerits up across the board, double demerits extending to more than just public holidays - 40 k over is now $1000 plus whatever else they can throw at you - result - road deaths up by 20% this year in WA - so that was really effective..............

Twats!

[Mikkel]

Hmmm, speeding penalties are IMHO quite tough enough already. Why is it so hard for the government to understand that the people who drive dangerously will continue to do so even if they imposed a death sentence for speeding! And that would just give people even more reason to try and run from the police anyway...

[Pwalo]

Oh goodie. Uncle Helen is going to pass legislation to make biking safe.

Well, we'll all be ok then.

[Coyote]

They only threaten the middle class. The lower class pay no attention and let the fines rack up and the rich don't care either.


Will bikes have seatbelts eventually? Bet they will before buses ever do.

[u4ea]

They only threaten the middle class. The lower class pay no attention and let the fines rack up and the rich don't care either.


Will bikes have seatbelts eventually? Bet they will before buses ever do.

My guess is after the coast to coast ride where ACC were taking stats on which Day Glow was the most effective,that will be the next lot of fines to deal with........

[Marmoot]

Ve must beat ze dead horze until it wins ze race!

[MD]

I heard that they are going to introduce penalties for bikes that crash into police cars that suddenly turn across their path. To be fair to all parties the legislation will be modelled on the same Sharia law that gave that Saudi rape victim 200 lashes and 2 years in prison for letting 7 men pack rape her.

[PirateJafa]

I heard that they are going to introduce penalties for bikes that crash into police cars that suddenly turn across their path. To be fair to all parties the legislation will be modelled on the same Sharia law that gave that Saudi rape victim 200 lashes and 2 years in prison for letting 7 men pack rape her.
Pity NZ doesn't have any royalty in power to grant pardons though.

[davereid]

"legislation will be modelled on the same Sharia law that gave that Saudi rape victim 200 lashes and 2 years in prison for letting 7 men pack rape her."


To a certain extent ACC is a bit like Sharia Law... Its argued that motorcyclists cost more to patch up than car drivers, thus its fair to charge bikers more for ACC.

The sums may be different if they took into consideration who caused the accident rather than who cost the repair bill !

But... Speed certainly causes a lot of single-vehicle motorcycle accidents

[The Pastor]

Oh great, and everyone knows that ANY speed above what is on a sign is SUPER DANGEROURS.

basTARDS.

Would be nice if buy dangerous they ment people who pour deisl on the road, or people who change lanes as quickly as possible ( note, bikes should be excluded as we all know cars dont see them no matter how slow you go). Or driters etc etc.

Oh no the real bad guys are the ones rolling down (i.e., no throttle) 65 down hill in a 50.

Speed does not = safe or not safe. Drivers/riders = safe or not safe.

[Renegade]

bad buzzzz!!!!!

[Genestho]

Interesting, this is in line with an email I recieved from Peter Brown, New Zealand first.
Last week I asked him what were the outcomes of an enquiry he had asked for on May 25 2007, in regards to Driving Practices in NZ (Main Points were Recidivist Drink Drivers and BoyRacers)

Im quite happy to share this email:

Dear Jos

I acknowledge receipt of your recent email.

I know words are not very adequate but in reality they are all we have and I do extend my sincere sympathy to you and your family/friends on the loss of your husband and his friends.

You do not need me to tell you that the ‘accident’ should never have happened. If the drunk driver had been kept off the road it would not have. You are correct, I did call for an enquiry into drunk driving and recidivist offenders. Much work was done behind the scenes to effect this or, alternatively, tighten up the laws.

It is in the latter area I am hopeful of having some success. The Ministers (Transport and Transport Safety) contemplated introducing a bill in the New Year addressing the driving licence. At the discussions I have had with them I have been assured that such legislation will include a far tougher stance on drunken drivers. I have put my ideas in detail, in writing, and have been assured they will be seriously considered.

In summary, the ideas I have presented revolve around the concept that ‘if society cannot stop the driver we should be able to restrict his/her access to a vehicle, either his/hers or those of others’. The penalties for breach will be huge.

When this bill eventuates – hopefully in the early months of the New Year, the public will be able to outline concerns and remedies and have the law changed when the bill is passed. It could represent a speedier solution to the problem over drunk drivers than a review would.

Finally, I thank you for your enquiry and I hope I have addressed the issue.

Yours sincerely



Peter Brown MP
Deputy Leader & Whip
NEW ZEALAND FIRST
Phone: (04)470-6697
Fax: (04)499-9108

At this point I asked can I let the cat out of the bag on this news.

I have no problem whatsoever in you mentioning that there is a new bill in the pipeline expected to be tabled in Parliament early next year. It is not yet in Parliament and thus far I am no sure actually how the Government will address the issue of drunk/recidivist drivers. All I know is, on behalf of NZ First, I have pushed the matter exceedingly hard – both in discussions with Ministers and officials and in writing.

I have outlined ideas in detail and have been given the assurance that the new bill will address drunk/recidivist drivers and, in doing so, meaningful consideration will be given the ideas put forward by myself on behalf of my party.

I trust this clarifies the position - but a word of advice/encouragement – go for it – it is a big issue (you do not need me to tell you that) and speaking out (never mind getting me or anyone else into trouble) can only do some good. In short, tell the world New Zealanders are sick of drunk/recidivist drivers. We have had enough of them and we are going to put a stop to the practice.

All the best.

Peter Brown MP
Deputy Leader & Whip
NEW ZEALAND FIRST
Phone: (04)470-6697
Fax: (04)499-9108

When I see this bill, if it is specific and has what Im seeking I will be encouraging a major public campaign, as of now what Im aware with this particular bill, it has nothing to do with Motorcyclists.

However obviously there is a number of initiatives in the pipeline. Which could mean anything.

[Genestho]

O dear - missed the Motorcycling Safety bit in white Bold in the bottom of first Post.
Oh well, sorry bout that:innocent:

[mstriumph]

I heard that they are going to introduce penalties for bikes that crash into police cars that suddenly turn across their path. To be fair to all parties the legislation will be modelled on the same Sharia law that gave that Saudi rape victim 200 lashes and 2 years in prison for letting 7 men pack rape her.

PRICELESS!!

bling awarded ;)

[Grahameeboy]

Lets wait and see before we start to wobble our knees eh?

For around $700 you can get a decent radar detector so that decision for some of us may be easier if they do put fines up.

[mstriumph]

.............It never ceases to amaze me, that governments around the world equate tougher laws and penalties with "safety" - like a bully threatening its victim!

You do this or else! A legalised protection racket!

......................

but more renumerative ...... :(

[discotex]

Lets wait and see before we start to wobble our knees eh?

For around $700 you can get a decent radar detector so that decision for some of us may be easier if they do put fines up.

sssshhhhhhh!!!!

You might give them ideas about banning them as well!

[Grahameeboy]

sssshhhhhhh!!!!

You might give them ideas about banning them as well!

Well maybe not if you look at this survey which suggests that radar detector users are safer...

http://www.radardetectors.co.uk/morisurvey.pdf

[discotex]

Well maybe not if you look at this survey which suggests that radar detector users are safer...

http://www.radardetectors.co.uk/morisurvey.pdf


Only problem is that proof that they are safer means banning is more likely the way laws/rules are being drafted in this country.

Might want to keep that PDF away from LTNZ and other associated cronies.

[Grahameeboy]

Only problem is that proof that they are safer means banning is more likely the way laws/rules are being drafted in this country.

Might want to keep that PDF away from LTNZ and other associated cronies.

Cynic

I don't see this one happening though..........

[discotex]

Cynic

I don't see this one happening though..........

hehe yep when it comes to roading policy I am.

Think you're right though. Radar detectors are expensive enough that most people don't bother which means there's not enough revenue to be made from ticketing people for using them ;)

[RantyDave]

http://stuff.co.nz/4332694a10.html

"introducing demerit points for radar detectors and other detection and interference devices;"

No officer, it tells me when my mobile is ringing. It's bluetooth, see.

Actually, you probably could make a bluetooth radar detector. Hmmmm.

Dave

Edit: Similar thread http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=63495 - mods want to merge?

[What?]

As part of the Gummint's new Road "Safety" Strategy, fines for minor offenses are to be reduced, but demerits will increase (no specific mention of speeds, but 3 times no seatbelt = no licence is one example provided)

And RADAR DETECTORS ARE TO BE BANNED.

Coming soon to a highway near you...

[Swoop]

As part of the Gummint's new Road "Safety" Strategy, fines for minor offenses are to be reduced, but demerits will increase (no specific mention of speeds, but 3 times no seatbelt = no licence is one example provided)

And RADAR DETECTORS ARE TO BE BANNED.

Coming soon to a highway near you...

Source of info please.

[onearmedbandit]

Surely they would have to make radar detectors or the use of illegal before introducing such measures?

[enigma51]

Source of info please.

stuff.co.nz

[yungatart]

Some of that I do agree with, like increasing demerit points and reducing fines, longer learner license period....but radar detectors?
Can't really see how that will make roads safer, just easier for the plod to get an unsuspecting motorist for doing 112 on a deserted raod.

[enigma51]

Some of that I do agree with, like increasing demerit points and reducing fines, longer learner license period....but radar detectors?
Can't really see how that will make roads safer, just easier for the plod to get an unsuspecting motorist for doing 112 on a deserted raod.

hmmmmm they can do that with instant on all its going to do is make vans more of a threat

[Usarka]

And we all know that people stop driving once they are disqualified.......

[Swoop]

I'm sure the gubbinment will come up with an effective piece of legislation to enforce this... just like the "electoral finance bill"!

The detector stays exactly where it is.

[99TLS]

And we all know that people stop driving once they are disqualified.......

have a friend who is disquallified for life, and he still rides :shit:

[more_fasterer]

So they claim to be making the learner phase more difficult. However, once you've got your license, there's absolutely no need to prove you have any skill whatsoever. Cos then you might speed and kill babies.

[Marmoot]

So this is instead of announcing a Tax increase?

Id better get a decent radar detector in the new year...

Look at the article in Stuff.co.nz today.
Radar detectors will attract demerit points

[Marmoot]

Source of info please.

Source...
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4332694a10.html


* introducing demerit points for radar detectors and other detection and interference devices;

[McDuck]

What is to stop a biker hideing a dector in the forunt bulb of a bike?

[Marmoot]

a detector Detector. (VG2?)

[sAsLEX]

Oh no! So they are soon to be illegal aye? Time for the integrated system hidden from view with a HARD.

Cops would need a warrent to search inside the fairings, and couldn't prove it was you emitting the LO freq if your smart enough to turn it off as soon as you get the warning are pulled up, and have the activation button well hidden........for every problem there is only solutions!

http://stuff.co.nz/4332694a10.html

[EJK]

ncreasing demerit points for noisy vehicles offences.

Thats a total BS for most of us lol

[Big Dave]

Oh no! So they are soon to be illegal aye? Time for the integrated system hidden from view with a HARD.

Cops would need a warrent to search inside the fairings, and couldn't prove it was you emitting the LO freq if your smart enough to turn it off as soon as you get the warning are pulled up, and have the activation button well hidden........for every problem there is only solutions!

http://stuff.co.nz/4332694a10.html

In Aus the bust for having a detector - and they use detector detectors - make them no longer viable.

[sAsLEX]

In Aus the bust for having a detector - and they use detector detectors - make them no longer viable.

Qua ntify.

[jrandom]

Gotta fall back on tha Mk I fuckin' eyeball, muthafuckas. No rest for the wicked.

[Taz]

I have found out that there are no demerits for obeying the posted speed limits....... So that's what i'm gonna do.+/- 20kmh :)

[The Stranger]

"keeping demerit points active until two years after an offence"

So you loose your license and your demerits don't get reset to 0?
If so, and you were like one KBer, whom shall remain nameless, and lost your license with 175 demerits you could be without one for 12 months.

[Qkchk]

Look on the bright side - Some of ya will have more $$$$ in ya pocket than before.........

"But in an acknowledgement that demerits and licence suspensions are more effective than other penalties, the fines for offences such as speeding will be cut."

[ManDownUnder]

In Aus the bust for having a detector - and they use detector detectors - make them no longer viable.

A HA! So we get a detector detector detector! That'll fuck 'em.

[jrandom]

A HA! So we get a detector detector detector! That'll fuck 'em.

One is tempted to build a FOAD big jammer.

Which is already illegal.

But, y'know. Fuckit. Heh.

Chuck it on a bike, you'd be the AWACS for every group ride...

[Grahameeboy]

Then points for stop signs and demerits will be interesting.

I mean what if you stop at a stop sign, look, but still have an accident because you made an error of judgement and misread the other vehicles speed.. Are the cops gonna do you for not stopping.

75 points for running a red light does seem steep though.

In the Netherlands they have no traffic lights, no stop signs etc and the accident toll has gone down........

[ManDownUnder]

Why does the song "Uncle fucker" come to mind...


One is tempted to build a FOAD big jammer.

Which is already illegal.

But, y'know. Fuckit. Heh.

Chuck it on a bike, you'd be the AWACS for every group ride...

[MD]

Whoa!!! Ulch!!! Oh no..!

Where's that Harley brochure. I've always known this day was coming. Time to crack a beer now and celebrate the past years of relative freedom. Two moderate speeding tickets now and it's all over.
Interestingly radar detectors still aren't illegal. You just have to pay a tax from next year. Go the Labour Govt. And people say Labour only want to suck in money..wells there's the proof.


Posted on xtra;

Other changes include:

* introducing a penalty of 75 demerit points for running a red light, 50 points for a stop sign and 25 points for a give way sign;

* introducing a penalty of 25 demerit points for failing to wear a seatbelt;

* giving police the ability to issue a "license compliance order" to learner drivers who breach their conditions, under which they can impound a car for 28 days for a second breach;

* extending the minimum period under 25-year-olds must spend on a learner license from six months to a year;

* introducing a tougher test for learners to move on to their restricted license.

* increasing demerit points from 25 to 35 for learner license breaches;

* introducing demerit points for radar detectors and other detection and interference devices;

* keeping demerit points active until two years after an offence;

* increasing demerit points for noisy vehicles offences.

Ms King said some of the proposals, which had already been agreed to by Cabinet, would need legislative changes while others would merely need rule and regulation changes.

Drafting of the provisions would begin next year.

Two pieces of legislation that may change the driver regime are already before Parliament -- one that would tighten the regime for drugged drivers and another that would raise the driving age from 15 to 16.

The Automobile Association today welcomed most of the changes.

Spokesman Mike Noon today told NZPA the changes were "significant" especially for young drivers.

"We think reducing the fines, but upping the ante in terms of demerits is more realistic and a good move."

He said the current system of penalties was fine for most people, but it did not adequately deal with recidivist offenders.

The new system would do that, he said.

The Government is proposing changes to how it punishes drivers caught speeding by police.

Current penalties

* 1-10kmh over limit -- $30 fine -- 10 demerits.

* 10-15kmh -- $80 fine -- 20 demerits.

* 15-20kmh -- $120 fine -- 20 demerits.

* 20-25kmh -- $170 fine -- 35 demerits.

* 25-30kmh -- $230 fine -- 35 demerits.

* 30-35kmh -- $300 fine -- 40 demerits.

* 35-40kmh -- $400 fine -- 40 demerits.

* 40-45kmh -- $510 fine -- 50 demerits.

* 45-50kmh -- $630 fine -- 50 demerits.

Proposed penalties

* 1-20kmh over limit -- $50 -- 25 demerits.

* 21-30kmh -- $100 -- 50 demerits.

* 30kmh and over -- $150 fine -- 75 demerits.

[Bren]

The proposals also include a toughening up of the learner licence regime for young drivers - doubling the period they must spend on a learner licence and giving police the power to impound learner drivers' cars for multiple license breaches.

Fuckin Hell! Why do ya think there are so many people riding/driving on a learner lic anyway? cos it takes so frikin long to get to the full for a start and its a total pain in the ass!

Its all about filling up the govt piggy bank

[ManDownUnder]

In the Netherlands they have no traffic lights, no stop signs etc and the accident toll has gone down........

I reckon we should try this approach...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c347JehacE

[Grahameeboy]

I reckon we should try this approach (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c347JehacE)...

Cannot access, however, there is something to be said making traffic work it out.

A while back in UK, not sure where it was now, the morning traffic was controlled by the cops. They removed the cops and guess what less congestion.

[grusomhat]

Fuckin Hell! Why do ya think there are so many people riding/driving on a learner lic anyway? cos it takes so frikin long to get to the full for a start and its a total pain in the ass!

Its all about filling up the govt piggy bank


And they'll be complaining that crashes with L-plate drivers involved has gone up. When of course it's go to go up proportionately as there are more drivers on their L's because they can't get off them as fast.

[ManDownUnder]

Cannot access, however, there is something to be said making traffic work it out.

A while back in UK, not sure where it was now, the morning traffic was controlled by the cops. They removed the cops and guess what less congestion.

Look up and enjoy...

[Ixion]

A HA! So we get a detector detector detector! That'll fuck 'em.

Actually, a lot of the high end ones already have a detector detector detector. Mine does I know.

[Grahameeboy]

Look up and enjoy...

What no black girls...............

[The Stranger]

Gotta fall back on tha Mk I fuckin' eyeball, muthafuckas. No rest for the wicked.

Sorry Dan, eyes are detection devices. You now have to drive with your eyes closed.

[sAsLEX]

Cannot access, however, there is something to be said making traffic work it out.

A while back in UK, not sure where it was now, the morning traffic was controlled by the cops. They removed the cops and guess what less congestion.

A while ago the power failed in auckland rendering the traffic lights null and void, and the traffic improved/

[Grahameeboy]

A while ago the power failed in auckland rendering the traffic lights null and void, and the traffic improved/

Exactly...............

[ManDownUnder]

What no black girls...............

Turn the lights off

[Ixion]

I see a lot more people doing runners.

[enigma51]

I see a lot more people doing runners.

they not going fast enough if you can see them :whistle:

[Qkchk]

I reckon we should try this approach...


REPOST! :Police: :laugh:

[ManDownUnder]

REPOST! :Police: :laugh:

By popular demand I hasten to add.

[grusomhat]

Proposed penalties

* 1-20kmh over limit -- $50 -- 25 demerits.

* 21-30kmh -- $100 -- 50 demerits.

* 30kmh and over -- $150 fine -- 75 demerits.

Fuck. Those are cheap aren't they?! I wonder if they would still get your for reckless driving for going 130kmp/h?

[Spyke]

so when are we going to make a stand for the rights of new zealanders? We need make the government listen to us, not us cowering down to them and taking it. they should be our bitches we're the ones that pay their wages!

[sAsLEX]

My thread was more specifically about the new legal aspects, ie law, around the proposed banning of radar detectors, not the general discussion in this thread. Thanks for merging......

[Usarka]

where is the part about DRIVER-FUCKING-TRAINING / SKILLS ??????

I've witnessed 3 near-head-ons this year. All were at or below the posted speed limit.

[Chrislost]

FTP
YOU WONT CATCH ME ALIVE


there goes any reason to stop when caught doing more than 20km.h over the limit.



The revenue gathering argument is now gone too...
i assure you that the road toll will not go down because you need to get rid of the stupid drivers not the speeders

[Chrislost]

that officer on tv last night said that your not chased if you dont know it...

how about i just drive like a fuckwit at 255km.h everywhere
speed dosnt kill, stupid people(cops included) do

[Ixion]

Clarification of the new demerit proposals




a three-tier demerit point regime (25 points, 50 points and 75 points) which sets demerit points according to the level of road safety risk for speed, intersection and seatbelt non-wearing offences. It would be applied progressively as further proposals to change penalties are developed;
traffic offenders should bear all direct and indirect costs relating to licence reinstatement and this will be done through a requirement for them to pay an appropriate fee for a re-issued licence including the theory test;
all traffic offenders will be required to pass the appropriate driver licence theory test before their licence will be re-issued;
demerit points should remain active against any licence for a period of two years from the date the offence was committed;
a licence suspension for accumulating 100 or more demerit points will only reduce the total demerit points by 100 and will not remove all active demerit points on the licence;
more than one period of licence suspension can be imposed for demerit points accumulated in multiples of 100 (e.g. 200), and that such periods of licence suspension must be served consecutively.
Bear in mind that some of this (radar detectors for sure) actually requires new legislation, that must be open for public submission. It's done set in stone yet

[sAsLEX]

all traffic offenders will be required to pass the appropriate driver licence theory test before their licence will be re-issued;

You loose your license, you loose all classes.

Does one require to resit all classes or just the one the offence occurred on?

[Chrislost]

fuck this!
im guna tick up a racetrack
who wants in.

[James Deuce]

so when are we going to make a stand for the rights of new zealanders? We need make the government listen to us, not us cowering down to them and taking it. they should be our bitches we're the ones that pay their wages!

What? The right of New Zealanders to break the law?

How is this demerits/fine change an issue folks? It's a fair cop if you get caught speeding, it always has been.

I really don't understand the petrol head mindset sometimes, and I'm White Trash (not THE White Trash) FFS.

[Ixion]

Bloody cheeky , this bit



“We believe there will be widespread public support for these proposals as many of the issues targeted are a direct result of feedback from the public and road safety stakeholders to the See You There … Safe As! programme run last year,” said Ms King.


I was at those Safe As workshops, and the overwhelming output from them was the need for EDUCATION.

Which the MoT have totally ignored and just swallowed the tired old Police line, with hook and sinkers as well, more enforcement, more penalties.

[James Deuce]

Bloody cheeky , this bit



I was at those Safe As workshops, and the overwhelming output from them was the need for EDUCATION.

Which the MoT have totally ignored and just swallowed the tired old Police line, with hook and sinkers as well, more enforcement, more penalties.

You can't say you honestly expected anything else, can you?

To expect a sea change in the Government's patronising attitude to the serfs they govern would be naivety of almost terminal proportions.

We're stupid and have to be protected from ourselves and don't you forget it. Education is for the Socialist class only too, preferably Socialist females, though those with Merkins stuck to their faces who impersonate males qualify too.

[fireliv]

Sounds good in theory.... lets see what happens

[Usarka]

If any of you feckers have ever said "if your not [insert crime here] then you have nothing to worry about" then you can shut your moaning hole.

[Chrislost]

who wants to march to parlamen, but rather then have speaches when we get there we rock on up and take over, start reversing some of this PC bullshit that is there and fire the MOT

[slopster]

I like the sound of this scheme. The police will make a point of enforcing it for a while so they can say see we weren't after the revenue anyway. But it won't last when theres bugger all revenue comming in they wont bother putting speed traps on the likes of long downhills and passing lanes.

[Steam]

who wants to march to parlamen, but rather then have speaches when we get there we rock on up and take over, start reversing some of this PC bullshit that is there and fire the MOT

Fuck some people say some stupid shit on KB.
But I guess you are just venting your anger at getting pinged harder.

What a pack of whiners.

Harden The Fuck Up and take your demerits like a man.

[Tortron]

couldnt believe my luck, just walking out the door to install my shiney new detector as i hear on the news BANNED. Dammit

[Ixion]

I like the sound of this scheme. The police will make a point of enforcing it for a while so they can say see we weren't after the revenue anyway. But it won't last when theres bugger all revenue comming in they wont bother putting speed traps on the likes of long downhills and passing lanes.

or else they'll enforce ferociously to make up the llost revenue. Less dollars per ticket means more tickets need to be issued.

One thing s for sure, this will hit the Police another whammy with the general public. Remember, the demerits covers 50kph zones too. There's going to be a hell of a lot of interchangeable Mabels lose their licens for doint 71kph . Mind you I suspect the polic have by now given up on the idea of ever having community support, and settled for a "everybody is the enemy" approach to life.

[emaN]

jim2 & steam; from what i've read of your last post...what? are you just gonna roll over & take it? what kinda victim mindset have you got?!?
I don't agree at all with your posts. but i won't "red rep" you cos i'm sure you'd do anything but "roll over & take" that.

yeh sure, take yer punishment. prob is, adjusting the punishments isn't the answer, is it?

[sAsLEX]

jim2 & steam; from what i've read of your last post...what? are you just gonna roll over & take it? what kinda victim mindset have you got?!?
I don't agree at all with your posts. but i won't "red rep" you cos i'm sure you'd do anything but "roll over & take" that.

yeh sure, take yer punishment. prob is, adjusting the punishments isn't the answer, is it?

umm to me this is better!

I pay less! Yes the Govt is now asking for LESS MONEY! When will they ever do that? (except for the run up to an election when they will bribe votes and then take it back 6 months later with the addition of additional taxes.....)


But I haven't had a ticket in years. Do I ever drive under the speed limit? (Barring suburban roads and near schools etc....) Out on the open road if you are aware and helpful people flash and you speed in appropriate areas, IE NOT SH16, then you can live with the odd 50 buck ticket, rather than 120 etc

[Steam]

Oh, and for all you National-loving "John Key can bend me over anytime" types, just watch as National gets in and then.... does nothing at all to remedy this so-called "injustice".

And correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Labour just REDUCE the fines? Reduced the fines and increased the demerits. I don't see how a whole bunch of you are whining about how Labour are doing this to fill their coffers.

[Katman]

Post #16 in the 'zx10r wheelie' thread in the Sport/Road Bike section is a prime example of the shit that goes on on our roads that has resulted in the introduction of these new rules.

[Ixion]

No it's not. Motorcycles are not really on the political radar. Even though some of us do naughty things, we're not that many in number. It is the boi-racers who have whistled up the wind. Hence the emphasis on youff. The speeding hit is simply because the cops are finding it harder to meet their ticket quota (which is expressed in tickets issued, not dollars, though indirectly they get the dollars)

[James Deuce]

jim2 & steam; from what i've read of your last post...what? are you just gonna roll over & take it? what kinda victim mindset have you got?!?
I don't agree at all with your posts. but i won't "red rep" you cos i'm sure you'd do anything but "roll over & take" that.

yeh sure, take yer punishment. prob is, adjusting the punishments isn't the answer, is it?
What? When did I support the current Government? Did you read the post immediately after the one you're obviously annoyed about? I'm at a loss to try and understand just what you are losing with the more demerits less money scheme. It's always been illegal to speed. You get caught you get punished. Thus has it always been. Put your energy into something that has a "win" for all of us like the Cheesecutter campaign.

The reason they've dropped the fines to lower levels and raised the demerits is because people just don't pay fines anymore.

Red rep away fella! Make sure you put an interesting comment next to it, not the normal illiterate spleen vent made up entirely of consonants that seem to make up red rep comments. I'm not really that disturbed by people disagreeing with me, though it would be nice to think that they are disagreeing with what I wrote, not what they think I wrote after a nano-second skim read.

You've read stuff I've posted on here over the years. I've consistently supported/insisted on the introduction of meaningful driver education as the only way to improve our currently plateaued/possibly increasing road toll. Getting "angry" about speeding tickets costing less is going to make "us" look a bit frigging dumb if you all insist on whinging about it.

[Conquiztador]

And when all this does not change a thing, then the next thing is a chip in the puter of your machine that limits the speed. Add to that a sender in any 50 and 70 area that will adjust the speed for you. Trust me, it is coming. But by then I will be long gone to a place where I can forever ride the free roads of the 60's and 70's at full speed...

[James Deuce]

Speed limiters won't be introduced at all. Privately owned personal transport will be a thing of the past and the 150 years from the 1890s to 2040 or so will be viewed as a mass delusion - humans driving privately maintained vehicles at speeds more than 50km/hr, only mere metres apart? Madness! No wonder they died in droves!

[Swoop]

We need make the government listen to us, not us cowering down to them and taking it. they should be our bitches we're the ones that pay their wages!
You recon that this lot of morons could legislate anything of intelligence?
The Dog-chippling law that has caused ALL dog attacks to cease...
The "Gag any form of opposition to labourite thinking" oops - "Electoral finance bill"...

Bloody cheeky , this bit
I was at those Safe As workshops, and the overwhelming output from them was the need for EDUCATION.
See above.

[candor]

The revenue argument is not gone... it's just moving to other targets, getting a bigger net out they are - swings and roundabouts.

Anyone noticed the 6 mth campaign by Police on behalf of the Govt to slap fines on light drinking drivers - it has about 60% support now - another few mths and it'll be a critical mass then Govt will make a pre election announcement. Grr - even more time hanging out at checkpoint taxing instead of patrolling to intercept / remove
serious star 555's.

Now I don't know if it's been mentioned as thread too long for me to go all way back - but someone said what about training. Didn't the safe as consultations focus on that - yep, and the policy statements did too. But the excellent staff involved ended down the road - in the mode of other civil servants lately - for impertinence.

In the Press release I got today it said the doubled learner period can revert to the same as it is today if an approved driver course is taken - like defensive driving. I expected this initiative to be subsidised but no such announcement was there about that. So they're talking defensive not advanced skills. Sounds like you will sdtill not learn to control skids etc :crybaby:

PS - yes it will be JIM2. The Govts 2040 statement make very clear that in future private motorised travel will be a luxury.

[Swoop]

Spped limiters won't be introduced at all. Privately owned personal transport will be a thing of the past and the 150 years from the 1890s to 2040 or so will be viewed as a mass delusion - humans driving privately maintained vehicles at speeds more than 50km/hr, only mere metres apart? Madness! No wonder they died in droves!
Speaking with someone who has a "bit of knowledge" on this issue...
Cages will be able to be controlled "en-masse" within 10 years.
Driver input can be zero.

[James Deuce]

Speaking with someone who has a "bit of knowledge" on this issue...
Cages will be able to be controlled "en-masse" within 10 years.
Driver input can be zero.

Precisely what I'm saying. We won't be doing the driving. Bikes are too difficult to control as consistently as the current car paradigm, so they won't be playing in traffic I reckon.

[oldrider]

Saw Harry D on the news tonight, he seemed to be impressed with his tough guy impression.

I was less than impressed, they have a problem with boi racers, so the focus on the rest of the motoring world!

Sure Harry boi, that will show them yuh mean business all right.:headbang:...yah bloody :tugger: ....Bemused, John.

[Pixie]

where is the part about DRIVER-FUCKING-TRAINING / SKILLS ??????

I've witnessed 3 near-head-ons this year. All were at or below the posted speed limit.

Quote: "Training only makes drivers over confident..."
Supt Dave Cliff - Whangarei SafeAss meeting

[Katman]

I was less than impressed, they have a problem with boi racers, so the focus on the rest of the motoring world!



Well, it's only a matter of time until they decide they have the same problem with motorcyclists.

[James Deuce]

Quote: "Training only makes drivers over confident..."
Supt Dave Cliff - Whangarei roadsafe meeting
He's not the only one.

[Pixie]

Getting "angry" about speeding tickets costing less is going to make "us" look a bit frigging dumb if you all insist on whinging about it.

Costing less?
what is the cost of a lost licence over a few 112 km speeding offenses?:stupid:

[McJim]

Isn't Skidmark lucky he's committing all of his offences before this legislation gets passed! :rofl:

[James Deuce]

Costing less?
what is the cost of a lost licence over a few 112 km speeding offenses?:stupid:

That's not even a discussion point. Max open road speed limit is 100km/hr.

[Bonez]

You're getting charged less so less tax for the collecters. Isn't this what folk wanted?:Pokey:

[Pixie]

That's not even a discussion point. Max open road speed limit is 100km/hr.

What do you have the 750 for?
I'd like to follow you sometime,just to see if you are a real "never break the law" type,or just a bullshitter.

[emaN]

jim, it's the attitude that comes across, more than what you said/wrote.
you're right, i've read many of your posts over the last couple yrs, but i hadn't read anything of yours portraying this particular attitude, is all. i guess that's why i replied so quick. sorry if i seemed to 'attack' you dude.

the issue, i believe, is this govt's attitude, which (obviously) influences their actions.

per se, if you were to isolate these new 'approaches' from anything else Labour has done, I'd maybe even say 'good on them'.
however, with Labour's 'school report' growing ever grimmer, and especially taking into account their complete & utter disregard of our wishes in other (recent) spheres, i suggset that most of these approaches stem from an arrogant attitude which is too weak to deal with the main issues.

sure National will have it's own worms.
gotta be better than the festering bucket of apples we've got now though.

[emaN]

the law is meant to give us guidelines, is it not?
humans do occasionally make genuine mistakes, do they not?
I, along with thousands of others, am one of those who made a genuine mistake & have to lump it for 24mths.

lump? you bet. i've got the hump.

coppers have their arms so far twisted behind their own backs, they are left with very few discretionary powers.
this is what pisses me off.

there is the 'letter' of the law, and the 'spirit' of the law.
they're often forced to apply the 'letter' of the law, even when the 'punishment' is un-necessarily heavy-handed.

[Swoop]

It's quite entertaining with all of the front windscreen "stickies".
The proliferation of electronic in-car navigation systems (can't people read a map anymore?) that are appearing attached to the windscreen, MUST make it much more difficult for enforcement people to decide "was that a radar detector?".
Then we get into the seperate category of asian "all the wobbly thingys ALL over the dashboard". It would be very easy to camoflage a detector in the fluffy tissue-box covers!

[blue eyed savage]

its just not good that a young guy WILL speed then WHEN he gets court he knows if he stops hes going to lose his car/bike and/or licence.

what do u think hes going to do.
RUN

[98tls]

Lets not make the laws to harsh eh otherwise there will be no idiots doing 140km on main roads to tuck in behind.Went up to Timaru today in the ute and some dipshit in a 4wd passed me on the main rd doing said speed,was just a waiting game really and sure enough up the road a bit he was pinged.Cops must just laugh at how easy it is.

[sAsLEX]

It's quite entertaining with all of the front windscreen "stickies".
The proliferation of electronic in-car navigation systems (can't people read a map anymore?) that are appearing attached to the windscreen, MUST make it much more difficult for enforcement people to decide "was that a radar detector?".
Then we get into the seperate category of asian "all the wobbly thingys ALL over the dashboard". It would be very easy to camoflage a detector in the fluffy tissue-box covers!

And back to my threads original question.

If you fluffy tissue box does contain a radar detector wont they need a warrant to search it?

And if geeks like jrandom et al make one and hide it in various places on the bike how are the going to know what is what? I mean a cheap alarm box looks like an alarm smells like an alarm but........

[Disco Dan]

Great... so with radar detectors being banned they will drop in price very very soon....... :woohoo: will be able to get myself one then!

[Swoop]

If you fluffy tissue box does contain a radar detector wont they need a warrant to search it?
The'll just use the "I thought it might contain drugs" story and search under that excuse.

[Ixion]

I pulled my detector apart for various irrelevant reasons. There is not much in there. I reckon one could tuck the pcb in almost anywhere, assuming the one didn't care about seeing the readout (not really an issue on bikes). But I'm not sure about the antenna thing. can it be remotely mounted and just connected with a long wire ? Does anyone know?

Splitting the PCB out, and putting it remotely from the antenna, and ditching the case, would make it very hard for anyone but an expert to find . Could be done if a cop REALLY wanted to, but it's not really likely

Then the issue would be the cops detector detector picking it up. The detector's detector detector detector would pick up the detector detector and alert you, and you would have to quickly switch it off with a not obvious switch (not too much of a problem on a bike I think). And I don't think they can actually search the bike. I'm sure they can't search you, so you could just have the detector in a pocket. Or even buil it into your helmet maybe?

I wonder how many false alarms the detector detecors set off? I suspect quite a few, so if a cop did ping a detector and went looking , without apparently finding anything would he just assume "false alarm".

EDIT. May be a bit simpler. The doccy for my Bel says it is "invisible" to VG2 detector detectoring. So really it's just a matter of not having it in sight. Would radar penetrate a helmet shell. One could mount the antenna in the helmet, pcb in a pocket, sorted.

[sAsLEX]

I pulled my detector apart for various irrelevant reasons. There is not much in there. I reckon one could tuck the pcb in almost anywhere, assuming the one didn't care about seeing the readout (not really an issue on bikes). But I'm not sure about the antenna thing. can it be remotely mounted and just connected with a long wire ? Does anyone know?


Big radar electronics are heavy, heavy stuff high in a ship is bad, but height is good for range so there is a rather large length of "wire"/waveguide in a few radars I have looked at.

Cant see any problem if its good qual wire and we are talking inches rather than feet seperation

[oldrider]

I pulled my detector apart for various irrelevant reasons. There is not much in there. I reckon one could tuck the pcb in almost anywhere, assuming the one didn't care about seeing the readout (not really an issue on bikes). But I'm not sure about the antenna thing. can it be remotely mounted and just connected with a long wire ? Does anyone know?

Splitting the PCB out, and putting it remotely from the antenna, and ditching the case, would make it very hard for anyone but an expert to find . Could be done if a cop REALLY wanted to, but it's not really likely

Then the issue would be the cops detector detector picking it up. The detector's detector detector detector would pick up the detector detector and alert you, and you would have to quickly switch it off with a not obvious switch (not too much of a problem on a bike I think). And I don't think they can actually search the bike. I'm sure they can't search you, so you could just have the detector in a pocket. Or even buil it into your helmet maybe?

I wonder how many false alarms the detector detecors set off? I suspect quite a few, so if a cop did ping a detector and went looking , without apparently finding anything would he just assume "false alarm".

I have often wondered that myself but in a much more abbreviated form of course. (My brain cells are dying off fast now!) :blink: John.

[sAsLEX]

And the ESM suite would have to have multiple aerials to ascertain what bearing they detected the threat and only then could they narrow it you, as I mean all of us who have run with detectors have had false alarms....... so how does the cop know it wasn't one of those? Unless he has your bearing and relative signal strength and freq identified?

[Ocean1]

Speed limiters won't be introduced at all. Privately owned personal transport will be a thing of the past and the 150 years from the 1890s to 2040 or so will be viewed as a mass delusion - humans driving privately maintained vehicles at speeds more than 50km/hr, only mere metres apart? Madness! No wonder they died in droves!

This comes very close to revealing the heart of the issue. Perhaps it's only when we can remove ourselves a bit from an issue that we gain the perspective to see it clearly.

Driving is dangerous, and increasingly so, but only in a modern context. We value safety far more than ever we used to, for good or otherwise, and that skews our asessment of risk. Reality check: our ancestors lived with far more risk every day than we see in a year. Some of them even survived to bounce their grandkids on their knee. Some of them.

Improve safety? Why not, just don't buy into the bullshit. There is a limit to how safe a human can be made and remain sane. It's heartbreaking when serious injuries occur, but it's exactly that which tends, I think, to blind us to the fact that we are by nature risk takers. It's a nescessary survival trait, barely modified since eating itself depended on it.

Removing risk takers from the roads to prevent them endangering the rest of us ain't a bad idea. But if you lower the bar beyond a certain point none of us will be driving. I think we're almost there.


And back to my threads original question.

If you fluffy tissue box does contain a radar detector wont they need a warrant to search it?

And if geeks like jrandom et al make one and hide it in various places on the bike how are the going to know what is what? I mean a cheap alarm box looks like an alarm smells like an alarm but........

Yup, if you're going to make a law you better be bloody sure it's enforced. Searching cars is no a good idea from an enforcibility point of view. Using evidence based on detector detectors is legally dodgy. I can't see it working well at all.

[Ixion]

The other thing is, if detectors are illegal. most cops will stop using instant on, cos it's more hassle. So the detector if you DO have one will be more useful.




Speaking with someone who has a "bit of knowledge" on this issue...
Cages will be able to be controlled "en-masse" within 10 years.
Driver input can be zero.


Technically,maybe. But practical realities are another matter. In 100 years, who knows. But certainly not within my lifetime.

consider. Apart from the enormous safety hoops such a scheme would have to go through , what of the existing fleet? It would be impossible to retrofit such technology (safely). And older vehicles wouldn't have the electronics that would make it possible. And if the government brought out some rule about new cars having to have it sales of new cars would plummet and everybody would buy older secondhand ones. Which would make the economics impossible - the control process wouldn't be cheap to run.

I guess some very limited variation might come along. say a roadside box that slowed down or stopped vehicles at an accident scene ? Even that is really tricky. You'd either have to control ALL vehicles on the road, or have radar on them all, so that non fitted vehicles would realise that the car in front was being stopped.

A warnng type scheme where going too fast made a siren go off or something might work. But would any government be willing to cough up the money required, for such a small return? I think not.

And of course trying to do it with bikes would be a techo nightmare. And I don't see a NZ government being able to get away with banning bikes nowdays. In the 90's they might have done it, but now there are too many middle class wealthy bike owners.

No, more likely the unspoken agenda is just to make private vehicle ownership MUCH more expensive and MUCH more difficult. So that only the rich can afford it.

The Grey Sheeple really hate seeing poor people able to come and go as they choose. They really really want the masses confined to public transport.

[Ocean1]

The Grey Sheeple really hate seeing poor people able to come and go as they choose. They really really want the masses confined to public transport.

I agree that extensive and sophistocated public transport systems are far more economically socially and technically likely, (so not very) than automotive autopilots.

And if we get to that stage would not the drop in commuter traffic make the roads safe enough to be considered a recreational facility? P'raps not, be a very expensive asset to maintain for mere entheusiasts.

[sAsLEX]

10 years ....

Well they have been working on single motorways where auto driving takes place, fairly controlled and benign environment compared to suburbia and there isnt too many of them about yet.

Throw in variables such as driveways, multiple intersections, breakdowns, road works, kids, dogs, homeless people, Green party protesters.... et al. And all of a sudden the problem of getting a car to navigate this safely has just gone up exponentially.

And are the cars self-controlling to a strict set of rules uploaded to them at the LTSA? Or do they need a communication link and be constantly monitored/controlled like some of the current systems that have wires in the roads......

10 years, if the Govt. can complete something that complex in 10 years I will instantly burst into flames and explode I guarantee!


And how many people have completed DARPA's self driving vehicle challenge. Considering the challenge has a 2 million dollar odd reward USD that is, and is about the worlds biggest robotic geek award?

[Ixion]

I..
And if we get to that stage would not the drop in commuter traffic make the roads safe enough to be considered a recreational facility? P'raps not, be a very expensive asset to maintain for mere entheusiasts.
Oh. Me likes. Wouldn't cost anything to maintain. Just get the cages off the roads and leave them alone. It would be centuries before they became unnavigable for a chook chaser.

Once the sheeple forced the plebs into public transport, they (the sheeple) wouldn't use buses. Too convenient and not regimented enough. trains would be it I reckon.

[Ocean1]

Oh. Me likes. Wouldn't cost anything to maintain. Just get the cages off the roads and leave them alone. It would be centuries before they became unnavigable for a chook chaser.

Once the sheeple forced the plebs into public transport, they (the sheeple) wouldn't use buses. Too convenient and not regimented enough. trains would be it I reckon.

Fuck that was easy. Maybe I'll go after Jim's job next year...

And yes, trains, even in a geographically wrinkley terain, are the answer. At least thay're tha answer to getting the real culprets off the road: freight.

But the investment required is simply huge, beyond the scope of any administration of the last several decades. Doesn't make the proposition wrong though, "think big" only leaves a bad taste today because the proponents of the time also "thought wrong".

Edit: Ohyez, I could live with having to ride a big adv machine, at a pinch. Almost required equipment for most of the current roads already anyway.

[Ixion]

I don't think any modern goverment could do it,in the absence of some massive external disruption, like a major war. There is just too much investment (both in terms of dollars and sociology) in the existing infrastructure.

Only someone like Hitler or Stalin could force through a change of that magnitude quickly.

But slow attrition could gradually reduce private vehicle numbers, just as they slowly increased over 60 or 70 years. Just make the car a bit more expensive, a bit more hassle, a bit more difficult to use each year.

[Ixion]

Incidentally, the new licensing rules are bound to cause a significant increase in the numbe rof young people on bikes.

Cos if you have a cage L licence, you a re stuckwith having to have the olds along with you for a whole year. What 15 year old wants *that*. And maybe even have to have Mum or Dad sign a logbook (did anyone notice that?). But with a class 6 L you can have your own independent transport, no need for a supervisor. Got to be more attractive.

Of course, the whole thing with these new rules is how will they be enforced? The cops could ticket half the vehicles in south Auckland today for licence breaches if they wanted to. Same with the 75 demerits for running a red light. Yeah, but the cops don't give a stuff about it at present, why will they in t he future? It's only speeding they'll be heavy into.

An interesting point. The new rules have obviously taken up the police position hook line and sinker. But there's one thing the police have been pushing for ages that is missing. No demerits for speed cameras. Why is that I wonder? I'm sure there would have been if the cops had wanted it . So what underhand scheme have they got up their sleeve that they're not interested in speed cameras any more ?

[Ocean1]

Swot I said. Few individuals seem capable of sustained effort towards a better life, joint efforts seem doomed from the get-go. China's doing impressive things in infrastructure, but I wouldn't want to live under such close constraints.

Not sure what the answer is, usually the only way to elicit my co-operation is to prove it's a good idea. Then I'd sign up to a long term commitment. But offering clean data on choices relating to societal issues seems to have gone out of fashion lately... <_<

[The Stranger]

Well, it's only a matter of time until they decide they have the same problem with motorcyclists.


They already do have the same problem with motorcyclists.
Many years ago for example ACC were on record as wanting motorcycles taxed off the road and lets face it they still try each year.

But thanks to your dire warnings, I have been out speeding, lane splitting, performing dangerous overtake proceedures, drinking and binning on the Coro loop etc. Best I get it out of my system before they make it illegal. You're a real champ.

Oh, hows your progression to riding instructor going?

[sAsLEX]

China's doing impressive things in infrastructure, but I wouldn't want to live under such close constraints.



Yeah they are getting a new 500MW coal fired station every week, and not one of those new clean burning ones either, the proper planet destroying ones..... and yet no one is pressuring them to utilise clean technology in their rush to catch up to the "developed" world.

Meanwhile NZ will be having blackouts next winter.

[jafar]

And yes, trains, even in a geographically wrinkley terain, are the answer. At least thay're tha answer to getting the real culprets off the road: freight.

Next time you go shopping, tell the shopkeeper that you will only purchase things that didn't make the journey by road. Your diet of fuck all & fresh air will be of great benefit to your waistline.
The things in your house or business didn't get there on a train.:spanking:

[Ixion]

Next time you go shopping, tell the shopkeeper that you will only purchase things that didn't make the journey by road. Your diet of fuck all & fresh air will be of great benefit to your waistline.
The things in your house or business didn't get there on a train.:spanking:


They could do. I can remember when they often did. Markets, and businesses clustered around siding, companies had their own sidings. Train to the siding, then human or horse for the last (short) bit.

But it was very very inconvenient. and limiting. Today we do not accept inconvenience. The private car, and truck is just so much SIMPLER.

[Ocean1]

Yeah they are getting a new 500MW coal fired station every week, and not one of those new clean burning ones either, the proper planet destroying ones..... and yet no one is pressuring them to utilise clean technology in their rush to catch up to the "developed" world.

Meanwhile NZ will be having blackouts next winter.

They don't believe that to be the case.
Oh they're not extraordinarilly advanced "next generation" technology.
But they're an order of magnitude better than the ones they're replacing. And yes they're decommissioning the old ones in direct proportion to the capacity of the new ones.

And they don't have the shear volume of rainfall dropping anywhere near the vertical fall we have here. What they do have is huge quantities of low grade coal. To watch it barged down the Yangtze is quite amazing. We, at least have clean(er) choices, we've simply declined to pay for them...

[sAsLEX]

And they don't have the shear volume of rainfall dropping anywhere near the vertical fall we have here. What they do have is huge quantities of low grade coal. To watch it barged down the Yangtze is quite amazing. We, at least have clean(er) choices, we've simply declined to pay for them...

You think Hydro is the answer for us?

You try build a Hydro station, I will come visit you in court in ten years time as you battle for resource consent.

[jafar]

They could do. I can remember when they often did. Markets, and businesses clustered around siding, companies had their own sidings. Train to the siding, then human or horse for the last (short) bit.

But it was very very inconvenient. and limiting. Today we do not accept inconvenience. The private car, and truck is just so much SIMPLER.

They could get from one town to another by train, to get from the train to you your 'product' had to be moved by road. Truck or horse & cart were & still are the only viable option.
Also a lot of the country isn't serviced by rail & the number of smaller centres that have a rail link is getting fewer. I would suggest that your chances of getting freight off trucks & back onto rail are nil.
Rail has its strength in moving bulk commodity over a long distance. For shorthaul it is virtually useless.:shutup:

[Ocean1]

You think Hydro is the answer for us?

You try build a Hydro station, I will come visit you in court in ten years time as you battle for resource consent.


Part of one, yes.

No ta. Political stupidity don't count as an engineering constraint dude, that's someone elses problem to handle.

[sAsLEX]

Part of one, yes.

No ta. Political stupidity don't count as an engineering constraint dude, that's someone elses problem to handle.

Which river would you dam?

Which ecosystem would you kill?

How would you offset the carbon from the rotting biomass that you cover, and that continues to settle in the lake?

How would you replicate yearly flooding cycles to avoid damaging the river downstream as well as upstream of the dam?



It aint politics dams just aint that green.

[Ocean1]

Which river would you dam?

Which ecosystem would you kill?

How would you offset the carbon from the rotting biomass that you cover, and that continues to settle in the lake?

How would you replicate yearly flooding cycles to avoid damaging the river downstream as well as upstream of the dam?



It aint politics dams just aint that green.

Have that conversation with oldrider, I'm not convinced burning oil or coal is a better idea and that's really the only currently viable alternative we could hope to afford.

Having said that I'd support some of the longer term blue-sky technology, partly because while the costs are high the returns are potentially attractive, and partly cos I'm a confirmed technophile.

[Ixion]

They could get from one town to another by train, to get from the train to you your 'product' had to be moved by road. Truck or horse & cart were & still are the only viable option.
Also a lot of the country isn't serviced by rail & the number of smaller centres that have a rail link is getting fewer. I would suggest that your chances of getting freight off trucks & back onto rail are nil.
Rail has its strength in moving bulk commodity over a long distance. For shorthaul it is virtually useless.:shutup:

Not always. Back in the day, many many businesses (factories etc) had their own siding . Essentially, their own bit of railway. The train drew up right at (often inside) the factory and the goods were loaded or unloaded directly from warehouse to train or vice versa. They built the factories around the rail lines. But that was long ago, it doesn't apply nowdays, as you say . Remember too the rail network , even in NZ , was far far greater in reach back then. All the small branch lines and spurs were closed years ago. When trucks became reliable enough to be a more convenient alternative. Rail just couldn't hack it.

[Ixion]

Have that conversation with oldrider, I'm not convinced burning oil or coal is a better idea and that's really the only currently viable alternative we could hope to afford.

...


Nukes. Viable on every basis except political . Still need some hydro for balancing, nukes is hard to regulate.

[sAsLEX]

Have that conversation with oldrider, I'm not convinced burning oil or coal is a better idea and that's really the only currently viable alternative we could hope to afford.

Having said that I'd support some of the longer term blue-sky technology, partly because while the costs are high the returns are potentially attractive, and partly cos I'm a confirmed technophile.



Wind is finicky and useless for large scale generation.

There is something that is predictable and we have in abundance that should not be too hard to tap, and that is the wicked tides and currents we have in the cook straight and the sounds there.



Nukes. Viable on every basis except political . Still need some hydro for balancing, nukes is hard to regulate.

There through life costs are pretty big though, just ask the U Kas they now dismantle theirs.

A few undersea turbine farms could hold us over for a few years.

[Ocean1]

Wind is finicky and useless for large scale generation.

There is something that is predictable and we have in abundance that should not be too hard to tap, and that is the wicked tides and currents we have in the cook straight and the sounds there.




There through life costs are pretty big though, just ask the U Kas they now dismantle theirs.

A few undersea turbine farms could hold us over for a few years.

Yes, someone mentioned an experimental project for the Wgtn south coast. Don't know anything about it but there's certainly huge quantities of water flowing throught the straights on a reasonable regular basis.

It'll slow the planet's rotation down thought dude, and the curtains will fade quicker...

[sAsLEX]

Yes, someone mentioned an experimental project for the Wgtn south coast. Don't know anything about it but there's certainly huge quantities of water flowing throught the straights on a reasonable regular basis.

It'll slow the planet's rotation down thought dude, and the curtains will fade quicker...

Just like how the weight in the Three Gorges Dam lake has tilted the earth?

[Ocean1]

Just like how the weight in the Three Gorges Dam lake has tilted the earth?

Don't be rediculous. They don't use curtains.

Was there last month btw, went up the ship-locks, impressive.

Also impressive that they've moved 1.3M people 120M up the shoreline.

[jrandom]

Would radar penetrate a helmet shell.

Not if you lined your helmet with foil!

:laugh:

[sAsLEX]

Not if you lined your helmet with foil!

:laugh:

Serious answer yes.

Most radomes, you know the big dome things you see on ships, cover the spinning radar assembly to protect them from the weather, and most helmets are of similar construction.

But depending on the strength of the emitter I would tend not to put it next to my head.......... mmmmmm helmet feels a little warm today :blink:

[McDuck]

MOunt it up like a tank cam.

[Big Dave]

Dear Harry,

'"My job is to try to save lives out there on the road - if people don't like it, tough."

If people don't like it they will vote you out, actchally. And I suspect they will.

[Delphinus]

What if I use my radar detector purely for "Statistical purposes". Merely keeping an eye on the number of vans and mufti cars on the road..

[MD]

Get a room you guys. Three pages of hydro dams vs coal vs nuclear vs...fading the curtains..

Back on topic.
I disagree with the 250% increase to the lowest speeding fine from 10 demerits to 25! That's unfair on those slow pricks who annoy me doing 100 to 109kph. Lets make runners out the the 'almost a saint mob ' as well as the "definitely not a saint mob'
Actually, now that I think about it..it might work in my favour. It might increase the average speeds on highways. The slow (100- 109kph) mob will see no difference now doing 117 instead of 107 on the motorways ,so they may as well drive faster. Clever Harry D. and you will get a lower tax return. Ha ha.

And 75 demerits in 3 years for a detector! Harsh.

[Cache Wraith]

If these new "Road Safety Rules" make a few Aucklander's stop running red lights and rein even a few idiots in, then I'm all for it. I'm sick of reading in this forum about all the bikers being killed. It means we will have to be on our toes as well, or else we will cop demerits and fines but in my - humble- opinion bikers should be applauding these measures. The ongoing deaths and maiming of bikers is drastic, unfortunately that calls for drastic action.

[candor]

So what underhand scheme have they got up their sleeve that they're not interested in speed cameras any more ?
.... intersection cams.... What has media said? This is what is in the Govts media release from Annette & Harry -

EMBARGOED UNTIL 11.30AM FRIDAY 21 December 2007 Media Statement

Tougher penalties focus of road safety package

What changes will be made in respect of people caught speeding by police?

The penalties will be as follows:

 up to 20km/h over the limit will attract a fine of $50 and 25 demerit points;
 21-30km/h over the limit will attract a fine of $100 and 50 demerit points;
 over 30km/h over the limit will attract a fine of $150 and 75 demerit points.

What about speed camera offences?

Speed camera detected offences will remain the same.

[Ixion]

does anyone ahve an authorative source for this bit from the Harold


Drivers also risk having their cars impounded for exceeding speed limits by more than 50 per cent, meaning 75km/h in urban areas, compared with 90km/h now.


Now, my problem with this is
(a) there is absolutely no law at present that allows for impundment for 90kph in a 50 zone (or, indeed any speed in any zone). You can have your driver's licecne suspended for 90 in a 50 but not vehicle impounded
(b) NO other media source mentions this bit, nor does the official media release from Reichsfuhrer King.

So has granny been hitting the cooking sherry again , or does she know something noone else does. And if it's true does that mean that the walking speed in a 100 goes back up to 150 ? (Albeit with 75 demerits at 140)

[Spyke]

What? The right of New Zealanders to break the law?

well considering that if you get caught doing 1 km over the posted speed limit you can incur 25 demerit points. that doesn't seem fair i cant see how we can be that perfect unless we all drive at 45 kmph but then what if your speedo is out by more than that? are they going to pay for our speedos to be recalibrated because we're obviously to stupid to have our own common sense.:third:

[Swoop]

And how many people have completed DARPA's self driving vehicle challenge. Considering the challenge has a 2 million dollar odd reward USD that is, and is about the worlds biggest robotic geek award?
I thought it was the "Land a rover on the moon" geek award. Also at many millions of reward!

But depending on the strength of the emitter I would tend not to put it next to my head.......... mmmmmm helmet feels a little warm today :blink:
But you would have a lovely, semi-cooked, meal for when you finish your ride...

[Paul in NZ]

I don't think Joe Average will think much of this and I doubt it will stop young master don't give a fuck boy racer as they can just buy disposable cars and drive like loons anyway. The habitual drunks will keep going until they die...

But it's interesting where this is all going....

Petrol gets more expensive, emissions regs get tighter, policing gets tougher. Makes me wonder. In the 60's and 70's it was hard to find a dedicated dirt bike and you could ride heaps of places, beaches, riverbeds, swaps etc and now the makers sell shit loads of dedicated dirt only bikes and there are heaps of well organised events. Maybe thats the direction of sports biking? Track only devices with no road legal stuff trailered to track days behind a smart car for a days fun? Could be worse...

[Toaster]

Not if you lined your helmet with foil!

:laugh:

... or an Armadillo-helmet.

[spudchucka]

If people don't like it they will vote you out

Labour know they are screwed next election so they'll put through whatever unpopular legislation they want to and then try and buy back the voter at election time with bribes.

[P38]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4327621a10.html

Driving penalties to get tougher
NZPA | Tuesday, 18 December 2007

The Government is set to toughen up penalties for driving offences.

Prime Minister Helen Clark told journalists yesterday Cabinet had made decisions on "a number" of road safety improvement initiatives.

Transport Safety Minister Harry Duynhoven would announce changes in the run-up to Christmas, she said.

"Its actually legislative changes that are going to be imposed to make it clear that unsafe driving behaviour is going to face more stiff penalties," Miss Clark said.

In July Mr Duynhoven told Parliament's transport committee he would give serious consideration to a New Zealand First Party call for tougher penalties for recidivist drink drivers.

The party wanted first time offenders to get a written warning, have their car clamped on their property on a second offence and lose it altogether if they offended again.

Mr Duynhoven told the committee a range of policy was being considered including young and novice drivers and the graduated licensing system, changing penalties for speeding, intersection and seatbelt offences, drunk driving and motorcycle safety.


Why is it that a speeding motorist 40kms over the posted limit will loose their licence immediately for 28 days and cop a hefty fine.

Yet a Drunk Driver gets to keep their licence untill a Judge says otherwise, which in most cases can be months later. They may not even loose it then, possibly even recieving as lesser fine than the speeder.

However the speeding mortorist, while loosing their licence immediately, is not arrested.

The drunk will be arrested and released within hours but will get to keep their licence, even though this may only be temporary.

Which is worse?

Who Kills more?

Just seems plain Wrong to me.

[Cr1MiNaL]

Are detectors already illegal, I couldnt find the legislation that said so? and what about the "new" speeding demerits are they enforcable already? On that note I'm never ditching my radar, just gonna incorporate it stealthily midst Schnappy's farings.

[Jantar]

...You try build a Hydro station, I will come visit you in court in ten years time as you battle for resource consent.

Only 10 years to the environment court date? :lol:

It took us 8 years for a reconsent, not even a new one.

[awayatc]

Originally Posted by Blue Velvet
"Its actually legislative changes that are going to be imposed to make it clear that unsafe driving behaviour is going to face more stiff penalties," Miss Clark said.

Whaddaya mean "Miss"?

Probably is a trick question as in:"who will MISS Clark"
Obviously nobody.......especially not if one would be allowed to throw things.....:Police:

















"I'm sorry, I have a cold".[/QUOTE]