Campervan that hit bikers a couple of weeks back

[Tank]

http://stuff.co.nz/4329916a10.html

An Austrian tourist whose moment of carelessness cost four lives when her campervan ploughed into a group of motorcyclists near Fairlie this month has avoided a fine but must pay hefty reparations.


Heike Schellnegger, 30, an architect, had pleaded guilty to four charges of careless driving causing death, and two of causing injury by careless driving.

At her sentencing in Christchurch District Court this afternoon, she was ordered to pay $31,000 in reparation to families of the four victims killed when she crashed head-on into motorcyclists making a charity ride for underprivileged children.

She was also disqualified from driving for 12 months.

Judge David Saunders said the court's primary sentencing needs could be met by compensating the deceased's families and the two injured motorcyclists.

[Ixion]

So , rather less than $8000 per life. And as she is leaving NZ anyway the 12 months disqualification is meaningless.

[imdying]

$31000 and that on her concience for life... could've been a worse outcome.

[discodan]

What a joke our justice system is.

For some reason it is ok to kill four people as long as you are encased in a 2 tonne metal cage... oh and that will $30,000 please.

[Monsterbishi]

I know a guy who got more than $8k for losing a couple of toes in a industrial accident!, and that's all the tourist has to pay for a single life they took, that's insulting really, so much for the punishment fitting the crime.

What's worse really is that NZD$31k to a european is about the equivalent of NZD$10k to us, considering how much higher their cost of living is over there, so 4 lives for the cost of a used Japanese car.

Hell, the dudes an architect, $31k is nothing to him.

[GaZBur]

I remember once making a mistake driving my car.
I ended up going over onto the wrong side of the road. I was in luck - nobody else was around, nobody was hurt. I can only imagine the pain she is going through knowing what she has caused. If she has morals which it appears she has she will suffer this for the rest of her life too! My prime sympathy must lie with the victims families - but when it comes to saying her penalty is meaningless!

as the saying goes..

There but for the grace of God go I!

[Colapop]

Yeah I can see how the poor dear would have the deaths of these people on her conscience. It must be hard on her. I wonder what it's like for the families of the people that she killed by her inattentiveness. I shouldn't be so harsh - she has to pay a pittance for the lives she's taken. $31k NZD vs Euro's from an architects salary... yeah I can see the pain she's suffering... :mad:

[vifferman]

Get it right:


Hell, the dudette's an architect, $31k is nothing to her.
It's likely the licence loss thing is transferrable to Austria (there are reciprocal agreements on these things for many countries).
So, what were they supposed to do?
Execute her?
Lock her up in Her Majesty's Hotel for a couple of years, at $80k+ per year cost to the taxpayer?

I'm sure she feels badly enough about it, and was prepared to do whatever was necessary to make amends. But the dead motorcyclists can't be resurrected.

[Monsterbishi]

There but for the grace of God go I!

At least she's going to have a life to live, there's four souls who aren't because of her actions, and four familes who will miss them more than she will even start to realise. She'll pay her tiny fine, and get on with her life, mentally writing the event off as a result of a slippery road, or some other justifyable distraction.

Vifferman - If I were chosing the sentence, I'd make it something that reminds her for life, say, half of her earnings go to the families of the deceased.

[surfer]

That is so sad, $31K is that all life is worth!

Yep, the driver will have to live with this on their concience but not in her wallet.

[vifferman]

Look, it's obvious where this is going to end up.
I say we go and buy the rope right now, and hang the bitch. :angry2:
Nothing short of revenge is going to remedy this sad situation. I'm sure the family and friends of the deceased were hoping the judge would give her a capital sentence, and nothing else is going to fix things for them.
Perhaps it wouldn't be too over the top if she were 'accidentally' damaged a bit on the way to the hanging tree? Or maybe we could bring back the olde "hung, drawn and quartered" punishment?

Fuck - when will those softcocks in the Justice Department realise that the KiwiBiker Ultimate Judgement Tribunal could very quickly fix all the wrongs in Noo Zilund, if they just give us plenty of beer, some fine Italian bikes, and more money than you can shake a stick at.:headbang:

[discodan]

Get it right:

It's likely the licence loss thing is transferrable to Austria (there are reciprocal agreements on these things for many countries).
So, what were they supposed to do?
Execute her?
Lock her up in Her Majesty's Hotel for a couple of years, at $80k+ per year cost to the taxpayer?

I'm sure she feels badly enough about it, and was prepared to do whatever was necessary to make amends. But the dead motorcyclists can't be resurrected.

Loosing her right to ever drive a car again might not be a bad start. That should go for anyone that kills other people on the road. A 12 month driving suspension if so pathetic it is offensive.

[Blue Velvet]

Wonder what caused the camper van to "drift into shingle" in the first place.

Lack of attention caused by...

[RantyDave]

What a joke our justice system is.
Oh, puhleeeze. And I'm not just referring to Mr Dan, either.

She had AN ACCIDENT. She wasn't drunk. She wasn't fucking speeding. She wasn't doing a u-turn to pursue an allegedly speeding biker. She didn't, FFS, see a whole raft of bikers coming and decide to mow them all down. No. She drifted onto the gravel - probably trying to make some more space for the bikers - felt it pull left, overcorrected to the right, and by the looks of things the weight of the top of the camper has pulled it into the corner and into the path of the oncoming bikers.

She made no attempt to hide the fact. Never once claimed it was anyone's fault but her own. And feels awful about the whole thing. Sure, thirty grand is neither here nor there, but ... honestly ... it's not like locking her up would help, is it?

Fucks' sake. Are you trying to tell me that nobody here ever has an accident? Ever?

Dave

[aderino4]

Interesting how everyone seems to be very determined to destroy another life.

2 Lives have been taken away and another 2 are injured.. yet everyone is on their pitch fork trying to destroy another one (the tourist).

You will not understand what it feels like to be in her shoes until you are in her shoes.

[GaZBur]

Oh, puhleeeze. ...She had AN ACCIDENT. She wasn't drunk. She wasn't fucking speeding. She wasn't doing a u-turn to pursue an allegedly speeding biker. She didn't, FFS, see a whole raft of bikers coming and decide to mow them all down. No. She drifted onto the gravel - probably trying to make some more space for the bikers - felt it pull left, overcorrected to the right, and by the looks of things the weight of the top of the camper has pulled it into the corner and into the path of the oncoming bikers.

She made no attempt to hide the fact. Never once claimed it was anyone's fault but her own. And feels awful about the whole thing. Sure, thirty grand is neither here nor there, but ... honestly ... it's not like locking her up would help, is it?

Fucks' sake. Are you trying to tell me that nobody here ever has an accident? Ever?

Dave

Though I was alone here for a while.

Looks like we are in the minority then. Seems like all the rest of you have never made an error on the road. Thats all it took, one simple error. She was not a drug crazed homicidal maniac deliberately drive to endanger.

Lets just make all driving offences that might cause accidents a life time driving ban, like speeding, failing to stop, losing control of a motorcycle ina corner etc etc... How does that suit everyone???

[surfer]

Oh, puhleeeze. And I'm not just referring to Mr Dan, either.

She had AN ACCIDENT. She wasn't drunk. She wasn't fucking speeding. She wasn't doing a u-turn to pursue an allegedly speeding biker. She didn't, FFS, see a whole raft of bikers coming and decide to mow them all down. No. She drifted onto the gravel - probably trying to make some more space for the bikers - felt it pull left, overcorrected to the right, and by the looks of things the weight of the top of the camper has pulled it into the corner and into the path of the oncoming bikers.

She made no attempt to hide the fact. Never once claimed it was anyone's fault but her own. And feels awful about the whole thing. Sure, thirty grand is neither here nor there, but ... honestly ... it's not like locking her up would help, is it?

Fucks' sake. Are you trying to tell me that nobody here ever has an accident? Ever?

Dave


Don't have a problem with what you say. In fact I am in agreement.

What I do find sad is the little compensation meeted out and what this indicates about the value of a life cut short.

[yungatart]

I can't begin to imagine how she is feeling right now. Nor can I imagine how the families of the deceased are feeling as they go into their first Christmas without their loved ones.
$31 k may not sound much...but it would bloody near bankrupt loads of people on this site!
I, for one, wouldn't trade places with any of those involved.

[Katman]

The thing that makes me puke is, if she'd killed four pedestrians or four pushbike riders or four people in a car it would probably have never rated a mention on here.

[discodan]

Oh, puhleeeze. And I'm not just referring to Mr Dan, either.

She had AN ACCIDENT. She wasn't drunk. She wasn't fucking speeding. She wasn't doing a u-turn to pursue an allegedly speeding biker. She didn't, FFS, see a whole raft of bikers coming and decide to mow them all down. No. She drifted onto the gravel - probably trying to make some more space for the bikers - felt it pull left, overcorrected to the right, and by the looks of things the weight of the top of the camper has pulled it into the corner and into the path of the oncoming bikers.

She made no attempt to hide the fact. Never once claimed it was anyone's fault but her own. And feels awful about the whole thing. Sure, thirty grand is neither here nor there, but ... honestly ... it's not like locking her up would help, is it?

Fucks' sake. Are you trying to tell me that nobody here ever has an accident? Ever?

Dave

When the consequesnces of just 'having an accident' are so high? Yes I do think that the punishment for this is a joke. Especially when you compare it to other crimes such as tax fraud.

[discodan]

Lets just make all driving offences that might cause accidents a life time driving ban, like speeding, failing to stop, losing control of a motorcycle ina corner etc etc... How does that suit everyone???

Nah just the ones that actually cost lives. Maybe then, people will pay more attention to driving instead of tuning the stereo or texting thier mates. Even if it is out of fear of loosing thier right to drive and not out of compassion for the person they might kill in the process.

[Blue Velvet]

Though I was alone here for a while.

Looks like we are in the minority then. Seems like all the rest of you have never made an error on the road. Thats all it took, one simple error. She was not a drug crazed homicidal maniac deliberately drive to endanger.

Lets just make all driving offences that might cause accidents a life time driving ban, like speeding, failing to stop, losing control of a motorcycle ina corner etc etc... How does that suit everyone???

But it seems that so many things are "just accidents". People need to learn to be more farking careful.

[Mikkel]

The amount of pettiness and lack of empathy expressed by some posters in this thread is very saddening!

I can not see how the size of the reparations have any meaning in the first place. Putting a $1,000,000 price tag on each life wouldn't have changed a thing - the families would still rather have had their loved ones back...

As a matter of fact I find it disturbing that so many people are doubting so strongly that an average person of average morals (and we have nothing that would suggest that is not the case) will not experience a huge amount of remorse and misery for having inflicted such devestation upon other families. I can't help but wonder if the people who so doubt that this remorse is genuine are the people who would have claimed NOT GUILTY in all but the most hopeless situation and expect that everyone behave in the same manner!

On another note, and of course unless you've lived in Europe you wouldn't know this, but not all countries in old Europe are super wealthy. Austria happens to be one of the poorest of the west European countries and not all architects have their own companies and big salaries. Not that it matters because the bigots won't care about facts anyway.

[Colapop]

I suppose you could call my previous post petty or callous. You could say a lot of things. None of them are going to bring my brother back. He was killed by a slight moment of inattention by a driver while he was riding his bike.
I still remember the times we had together. I still remember the pain I felt when I was told of the accident. I still visit his grave and know that I won't be spending any time with him at christmas or his birthday or any other event. Nor will his son.

It was just an accident. That could have not happened at all if someone had been paying a little more attention.

[MSTRS]

Do any of you here actually have any proof that negligence caused this accident?
Anyone?
No?
Or was it deliberate?
No?
In that case, an accident is what it was, and the Austrian was and isn't some crazed yob. She will be paying in some way for life.
And I'm sure that if she could change what happened.....

A very different outcome in every way to that 'other' incident.

[Blue Velvet]

It was just an accident. That could have not happened at all if someone had been paying a little more attention.

+1

My point exactly.

[Mikkel]

The thing that makes me puke is, if she'd killed four pedestrians or four pushbike riders or four people in a car it would probably have never rated a mention on here.

You deserve some bling for that comment. Alas, I can see that the mods don't allow it.


I suppose you could call my previous post petty or callous. You could say a lot of things. None of them are going to bring my brother back. He was killed by a slight moment of inattention by a driver while he was riding his bike.
I still remember the times we had together. I still remember the pain I felt when I was told of the accident. I still visit his grave and know that I won't be spending any time with him at christmas or his birthday or any other event. Nor will his son.

I can see where you are coming from. However, bringing ruin to more lives are not going to help the situation. I am pretty sure that the austrian driver's family is pretty stricken by this thing as well.

To be quite fucking honest. I think I'd rather have been the biker that was killed at the impact than the one who had to carry the weight of that accident.

[daytona 2]

Have you ever driven one of those "campervans" they handle like a rollerskate, once they get into any kind of body-roll, understear or overstear, they are gone. The center of gravity is too high for all but the flatest road surface, and :mellow:alot of our roads are cambered badly. I know a guy who managed to roll one on the desert road, the cops new what they were like and did not lay charges. Shit happens.

[Blue Velvet]

However, bringing ruin to more lives are not going to help the situation. I am pretty sure that the austrian driver's family is pretty stricken by this thing as well.

I don't wish more ill on the tourist, as others have posted it would not change anything.

I do think that people need to be more careful/attentive on the roads, and I wish that "just an accident" wasn't such an accepted explanation for a lot of things.

[Maha]

The thing that makes me puke is, if she'd killed four pedestrians or four pushbike riders or four people in a car it would probably have never rated a mention on here.

You are probably right, the whole thing is a bit sad really, from what happened to....the outcome, there are no winners in this situation, so many lives have been effected, and yet the majority of posts have nothing but contempt for those involved (barr the bikers)...it was a fucken accident, she did not mean for it to happen, hence she was not charged with Murder.

[Maha]

Oh, puhleeeze. And I'm not just referring to Mr Dan, either.

She had AN ACCIDENT. She wasn't drunk. She wasn't fucking speeding. She wasn't doing a u-turn to pursue an allegedly speeding biker. She didn't, FFS, see a whole raft of bikers coming and decide to mow them all down. No. She drifted onto the gravel - probably trying to make some more space for the bikers - felt it pull left, overcorrected to the right, and by the looks of things the weight of the top of the camper has pulled it into the corner and into the path of the oncoming bikers.

She made no attempt to hide the fact. Never once claimed it was anyone's fault but her own. And feels awful about the whole thing. Sure, thirty grand is neither here nor there, but ... honestly ... it's not like locking her up would help, is it?

Fucks' sake. Are you trying to tell me that nobody here ever has an accident? Ever?

Dave

Totally agree with ya Dave...didnt read you post before i posted, but we say similar things....bling sent mate!

[Mikkel]

I don't wish more ill on the tourist, as others have posted it would not change anything.

I do think that people need to be more careful/attentive on the roads, and I wish that "just an accident" wasn't such an accepted explanation for a lot of things.

Indeed - I don't think anyone who has ever ridden a motorcycle is going to be opposed to the view that there are far too many inattentive drivers out there. And that these drivers poses a hazard to the health and safety of their fellow motorists.

As MSTRS pointed out, we don't know what caused the accident to occur. But it is probably more likely that the cause should be attributed to driving an unfamiliar vehicle on unfamiliar roads than inattention. And the most tragic of causes - that she could have gone onto the shoulder to make room for the bikes - is truly horrifying.

An accident is an accident - but you're more likely to have an accident if you're driving like a dick than if you're exercising due care. However, no matter the amount of care you take in your driving you can still have an accident...

[MyGSXF]

I actually kinda thought that the "sight" of all the bikes coming towards them, might have been the "instigator" of the whole senario.. maybe the tourists were momentarily distracted by the awesome sight.. & that's when the camper drifted... :mellow:

I mean, who doesn't enjoy to see a heap of bikes all out riding together... & have to have a wee look as they all go past!!! :wait:

Tis a possibility..... :confused:

All I know for sure.. is that I wouldn't want to live in that woman's head, heart & conscience.. for the rest of her life... :blink:

[mstriumph]

$31000 and that on her concience for life... could've been a worse outcome.


i WISH people would stop saying that sort of thing :(

we have no idea whether the person concerned even HAS a concience so dribbling on about how awful they'll feel for the rest of their lives is ..... just dribble

[mstriumph]

............All I know for sure.. is that I wouldn't want to live in that woman's head, heart & conscience.. for the rest of her life... :blink:

and all i know for sure is that i'd rather be her than the people she's killed

[Ixion]

Have you ever driven one of those "campervans" they handle like a rollerskate, once they get into any kind of body-roll, understear or overstear, they are gone. The center of gravity is too high for all but the flatest road surface, and :mellow:alot of our roads are cambered badly. I know a guy who managed to roll one on the desert road, the cops new what they were like and did not lay charges. Shit happens.

So, what you are saying, is that vehicles that are known to be very unstable, to require extreme care and considerable skill, are allowed to be driven by drivers who (a) have no experience of them ; (b) are driving under very unfamiliar conditions ; (c) are driving long distances when they are probably unaccustomed to such long haul driving ; (d) are of unknown but possible limited experience in general.

Now, doesn't that sound like something that should be looked into.

This is the whole difference between motor accidents and air accidents. If a plane crashed and the accident invesigation came up with conclusions like that, there would be immediate steps taken to address the issue. With motor accidents, if it can't be blamed on speed or drink, it's just called an "accident" and no one is interested in it any further.

Manifestly, the driver was incompetent. If that seems harsh, too bad. Competent drivers do not turn their vehicles over on a straight road. She was not (as far as we know) negligent, and the law allowed her to drive the vehicle. But she was incompetent. It is quite possible that most car drivers (myself included) would in fact be unable to drive such a vehicle competently . If so,then the design of the vehicle needs to be addressed.

Shit happens, but it happens a hell of a lot more often when there are not effective processes to prevent it happening.

[fireliv]

What a joke our justice system is.

For some reason it is ok to kill four people as long as you are encased in a 2 tonne metal cage... oh and that will $30,000 please.


I know a guy who got more than $8k for losing a couple of toes in a industrial accident!, and that's all the tourist has to pay for a single life they took, that's insulting really, so much for the punishment fitting the crime.

What's worse really is that NZD$31k to a european is about the equivalent of NZD$10k to us, considering how much higher their cost of living is over there, so 4 lives for the cost of a used Japanese car.

Hell, the dudes an architect, $31k is nothing to him.


Yeah I can see how the poor dear would have the deaths of these people on her conscience. It must be hard on her. I wonder what it's like for the families of the people that she killed by her inattentiveness. I shouldn't be so harsh - she has to pay a pittance for the lives she's taken. $31k NZD vs Euro's from an architects salary... yeah I can see the pain she's suffering... :mad:


That is so sad, $31K is that all life is worth!

Yep, the driver will have to live with this on their concience but not in her wallet.


Look, it's obvious where this is going to end up.
I say we go and buy the rope right now, and hang the bitch. :angry2:
Nothing short of revenge is going to remedy this sad situation. I'm sure the family and friends of the deceased were hoping the judge would give her a capital sentence, and nothing else is going to fix things for them.
Perhaps it wouldn't be too over the top if she were 'accidentally' damaged a bit on the way to the hanging tree? Or maybe we could bring back the olde "hung, drawn and quartered" punishment?

Fuck - when will those softcocks in the Justice Department realise that the KiwiBiker Ultimate Judgement Tribunal could very quickly fix all the wrongs in Noo Zilund, if they just give us plenty of beer, some fine Italian bikes, and more money than you can shake a stick at.:headbang:


THese are Just a few of the posts I found on the first page of this thread. How typical it is that you post about something you know NOTHING about.

Well I was in court today when this sentence happened, and I can tell you that it was highly emotional, and she will punish herself for the rest of her life. It was made perfectly clear to everyone there that this was all the money she had to give, and would give more if she could. THat this money was not a representative of how much there lives are worth- as no price is made on that. But the money was there to give, and to be dealt out as the Judge saw fit.

She has had to meet the families of those killed, and they have forgiven her, even talking to her afterwards, all admitting that they know that it was an accident.

So grow up people. Stop acting like ignorant red necks and ranting on about something you know shit about

[MyGSXF]

i WISH people would stop saying that sort of thing :(

we have no idea whether the person concerned even HAS a concience so dribbling on about how awful they'll feel for the rest of their lives is ..... just dribble

:doh: Do you honestly think that from the times she has been shown live on tv & what she said in her statements etc.. she is some kind of dropkick loser who doesn't have a heart??? :pinch:


and all i know for sure is that i'd rather be her than the people she's killed

I wouldn't want to be ANY of them! not victims, families or the driver :mellow: Unfortunately, when ya time is up.. ya time is up! It's not for us to "decide" :no: (unless suicide of course)

[Colapop]

Both sides of this argument are trying to justify their position...

"She should be jailed/strung up etc..."

"Poor woman is going to live with consequences etc..."

Who's right? No-one. The only absolute here is that these people were killed. They are dead and they're not coming back.

[jonbuoy]

Out come the "Peter perfects" who've never made a mistake in their lives. It was a fucking ACCIDENT she wasn't drunk, speeding, texting, pulling a wheelie or trying to get her pegs down. She fucked up let it go.

[Ixion]

Why therefore bother to charge her at all ? Serious question.

I can accept that the woman is remorseful. But what then has charging her accomplished? The $31K is meaningless , a pittance to the families of the dead , almost an insult. And it cannot (certainly should not) be a matter of any great account to her,compared to the remorse/guilt etc.

So, what has society achieved by charging her at all ?

Remember too, the charge was careless driving causing death . For such a charge to stick, it is manifestly necessary that greater care could have prevented the crash.

[lanci]

I think that she will have live to with this shitty event all her life and that is close to punishment enough (she wasn't drifting intentionally or anything daft like that) but to make sure that she is always thinking of those she killed, she should be made to have the photos of the 4 killed in her house for life. That would be a true punishment in my eyes.

[James Deuce]

Oh, puhleeeze. And I'm not just referring to Mr Dan, either.

She had AN ACCIDENT. She wasn't drunk. She wasn't fucking speeding. She wasn't doing a u-turn to pursue an allegedly speeding biker. She didn't, FFS, see a whole raft of bikers coming and decide to mow them all down. No. She drifted onto the gravel - probably trying to make some more space for the bikers - felt it pull left, overcorrected to the right, and by the looks of things the weight of the top of the camper has pulled it into the corner and into the path of the oncoming bikers.

She made no attempt to hide the fact. Never once claimed it was anyone's fault but her own. And feels awful about the whole thing. Sure, thirty grand is neither here nor there, but ... honestly ... it's not like locking her up would help, is it?

Fucks' sake. Are you trying to tell me that nobody here ever has an accident? Ever?

Dave

Knowing a little bit more about this thanks to a KBer who is massively more trustworthy than me, I'd say Dave has about hit it on the proverbial nail's head. It's just a shame he isn't up on stage, covering the front row with spittle, eyes bulging, face red as he delivers it.

Both her and her partner feel worse than terrible. The monetary value has no meaning. If you've been on the receiving end of an RTA and experienced a truly repentant person who caused the accident, you'd know that seeking revenge is pointless.

Col, you have a tiny little point there, but the bigger picture is the sad state that our society is in. We've abandoned principles in favour of self-gratification. There shouldn't be any sides. It simply isn't our place to pass judgment on anyone. Unless we're asked to by the civilised society we live in, and even then most people do their best to get out of it.

Revenge has no place in a civilised society.

[James Deuce]

Remember too, the charge was careless driving causing death.

I go on KB rides where half the people on it should be charged with that. I've been the unwitting and unwilling participant on the other side of the equation twice now, and one of those times the person wasn't charged. Nothing to be gained from it. Didn't worry me in the slightest and I turned reparations down as well. It served no purpose.

[Timber020]

So what charge should she have faced, what price do you put on a life?


Let me know what would make you guys happy.

[MSTRS]

Why therefore bother to charge her at all ? Serious question.

I can accept that the woman is remorseful. But what then has charging her accomplished? The $31K is meaningless , a pittance to the families of the dead , almost an insult. And it cannot (certainly should not) be a matter of any great account to her,compared to the remorse/guilt etc.

So, what has society achieved by charging her at all ?

Remember too, the charge was careless driving causing death . For such a charge to stick, it is manifestly necessary that greater care could have prevented the crash.

She was charged because that is what the law requires. Whether it was a good charge or not was never tested, and never proved because she pled guilty.
Using your rationale, there would be a whole lot of 'no charging' going on, because there would be no benefit to society in doing so.

[Street Gerbil]

$31000 and that on her concience for life... could've been a worse outcome.
Forgive my cynicism, but I don't buy into the remorse business. I find it a lot more plausible that the lady is just happy that she escaped from what would have likely been a huge reparation, a couple of decades worth of community service, and disqualification for life in Austria, scot free.
The amount of reparations is ridiculous and regardless of what others have said "regarding rather preferring to have their loved ones back" (and I agree with this notion), it should have been a bit more punitive and just demonstrates the (ridiculously low) value the government places on human life.

[ynot slow]

Compensation-I would think when hiring a campervan in this country,that you would have public liability insurance built into vehicle insurance.That could be used to pay for the victims,up to max limits of policy.

Easy to be wise afterwards re control of van,and the sight of the bikes coming towards her could have been a factor,as she said she did over correct the van.

[Conquiztador]

4 people are dead. One of them a 11 yo girl. 2 badly injured. There will be mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, partners and children who's lives will never be the same.

We have a couple who caused the deaths and injuries. One of them was driving. A mistake on the drivers behalf caused this. She has admitted that she made a mistake. That she caused the deaths. She has said sorry and offered all the money she had. $31K.

I have no solution to this. No idea how it should have been dealt with.

The only things I have to offer is:
- Whatever "punishment" she was handed will not change the situation that 4 are dead.
- There seems to be a strange line between sentencing when you have caused someones death in NZ. The "sorry, I did not mean to kill them, I lost concentration for a second" gets you $31K for 4 lifes. But the "sorry, I did not mean to kill them, but I was busy texting" would put you in jail.
- In another country a married woman was sentenced to 200 lashes for having being raped (she was pardoned!), a teacher got jail sentence for calling a teddy bear Muhammed (she was also pardoned). Wonder what the sentence for killing 4 of those countries citicens with a camper would have been?

[Paul in NZ]

I suppose you could call my previous post petty or callous. You could say a lot of things. None of them are going to bring my brother back. He was killed by a slight moment of inattention by a driver while he was riding his bike.
I still remember the times we had together. I still remember the pain I felt when I was told of the accident. I still visit his grave and know that I won't be spending any time with him at christmas or his birthday or any other event. Nor will his son.

It was just an accident. That could have not happened at all if someone had been paying a little more attention.

And how would you describe your own lack of attention earlier this year that could have easily resulted in your family loosing you Col? Did you take responsibility for it like she has or did you blame the circumstances like she could (because there IS more to this than you know)?? How would your describe my missing the beginning of an infection that nearly killed me last sunday, irresponsible? How do you begin to describe the antics of people on this site who deliberately place their life and others at risk every day - yes I've seen how some people friggin ride. 'Accidents' happen because several things go wrong in a peculiar sequence.

I'm sorry to be just singling you out and don't take it personally - I don't have the energy to rebut every point the lot of you make.

As I posted earlier - I've actually met this couple when I was in ChCh a few weeks back. I know a little more about the event than most of you and let me assure you that this very nice couple are utterly utterly devestated by this very unusual event that was not 100% their fault and yes - $31,000 does not seem much for a life but she offered everything she had to try and make amends - she offered it before it was demanded, the families involved, the court everyone who has had some involvement with this case agrees that there is a sadness about it because of the guilt and remose of these good people.

Frankly - the attitude of some people here, considering their own VERY pliable morals UTTERLY digusts me. You want to judge people? Look in the bloody mirror and pray there is no god - because one day you may just find yourself in the hot seat! These people stuffed up in an unlucky circumstance and a very bad thing happened. They are beyond sorry - save your bile for the repeat drink drivers, the deliberate overtakers and the serial abusers who DON'T care.

I didn't think I could be offended on KB any more - I was wrong...

[Her_C4]

Good points - and.....

Frankly - the attitude of some people here, considering their own VERY pliable morals UTTERLY digusts me. You want to judge people? Look in the bloody mirror and pray there is no god - because one day you may just find yourself in the hot seat! These people stuffed up in an unlucky circumstance and a very bad thing happened. They are beyond sorry - save your bile for the repeat drink drivers, the deliberate overtakers and the serial abusers who DON'T care.

I didn't think I could be offended on KB any more - I was wrong...

Well said - there but for the grace of God go I.....

[Colapop]

I do Paul, take responsibility for my actions. I have changed my outlook significantly since that accident - that I was equally responsible for causing. I'm asking in a probably very blunt way that we all take responsibility for our actions and actually contribute to society rather than expecting only to take from it.
I am not offended by a comment that has no intended malice or acid. I respect that it is said with positive intent other than to solely defame and abuse which all to commonly seems to be the case at times (in the forum).

I teach my kids the three R's;
Respect for others
Respect for self
Responsibility for all your actions

I realised earlier this year that I should be following the same rationale.

[Nasty]

From stuff...


Mr Raymond said Schellnegger's partner was reading a map immediately before the crash, looked up and saw the campervan apparently drifting on to the narrow grass verge on the left of the road and likely to hit a roadside marker post.

While such posts were flexible in New Zealand, in Austria they were solid. Fearing the van would hit a post he yelled "Heike" and Schellnegger overcorrected, losing control of the vehicle.

Mr Raymond told the court every driver at some stage had experienced moments of carelessness without major incident.

"Unfortunately in this case there were the most terrible consequences imaginable."

Judge Saunders said the word "tragedy" was an often overused word in court.

"But by any measure this was a truly ghastly tragedy."

He noted there were no aggravating features, such as alcohol or speed, that had contributed in any way to Schellnegger's carelessness.

Its a tragedy that this happened .... she was at fault and admitted it .. she did not fight ... why lynch her when she does that to herself?

[Hawk]

Oh, puhleeeze. And I'm not just referring to Mr Dan, either.

She had AN ACCIDENT. She wasn't drunk. She wasn't fucking speeding. She wasn't doing a u-turn to pursue an allegedly speeding biker. She didn't, FFS, see a whole raft of bikers coming and decide to mow them all down. No. She drifted onto the gravel - probably trying to make some more space for the bikers - felt it pull left, overcorrected to the right, and by the looks of things the weight of the top of the camper has pulled it into the corner and into the path of the oncoming bikers.

She made no attempt to hide the fact. Never once claimed it was anyone's fault but her own. And feels awful about the whole thing. Sure, thirty grand is neither here nor there, but ... honestly ... it's not like locking her up would help, is it?

Fucks' sake. Are you trying to tell me that nobody here ever has an accident? Ever?

Dave

what he said

[Grahameeboy]

Yeah I can see how the poor dear would have the deaths of these people on her conscience. It must be hard on her. I wonder what it's like for the families of the people that she killed by her inattentiveness. I shouldn't be so harsh - she has to pay a pittance for the lives she's taken. $31k NZD vs Euro's from an architects salary... yeah I can see the pain she's suffering... :mad:

That is harsh and judgemental.

No amount of money can compensate the loss. If she paid $1 million would that make you feel better about things. I suspect not.

She made a mistake. She came to NZ for a holiday and it all went wrong and I am sure that she is more than a 'poor old dear' and possibly the Insurance paid the damages anyway.

For a Country which has an appalling fatal rate per population whatsit, we should not so easily judge the accidental actions of others.

[SHELRACING]

Well personally I think she should pay reparation for the rest of her life, no matter where she lives.
$30k per year, NZ$, to the families.

[Grahameeboy]

Forgive my cynicism, but I don't buy into the remorse business. I find it a lot more plausible that the lady is just happy that she escaped from what would have likely been a huge reparation, a couple of decades worth of community service, and disqualification for life in Austria, scot free.
The amount of reparations is ridiculous and regardless of what others have said "regarding rather preferring to have their loved ones back" (and I agree with this notion), it should have been a bit more punitive and just demonstrates the (ridiculously low) value the government places on human life.

Yep we pay ACC for 'non-fault' compensation so we can get compensation for stupidity so what did she do wrong as she was not stupid and made a simple mistake

[Grahameeboy]

Well personally I think she should pay reparation for the rest of her life, no matter where she lives.
$30k per year, NZ$, to the families.

Reparation is not the same as compensation that you have in say country's like the UK where dependants would be able to claim damages for loss of future income. In the UK the family would only get funeral costs for any dead family members who did not have dependants and possible damages for PTSD if they saw the accident.

[candor]

Do any of you here actually have any proof that negligence caused this accident?
Anyone? No?
Or was it deliberate? No?
In that case, an accident is what it was,

The article in Stuff re sentencing made clear it was no accident - but a crash. It strongly implied by her partners report she was nodding off. He said she was veering off the road toward a post. In Austria posts are solid not knock overable like ours. So he yelled at her - this must have given her a jolt from her ?nap because when he yelled she pulled hard right. Would you do that - over correct if awake?? If you're not fit to drive or paying attention...

No accident - either fatigue or less likely drugs (they don't test) would be my guess based on described sequence. Negligence clearcut anyway, and that would explain the guilt level, and her offer to pay all her life savings.

One years disqualification doesn't cut it. Money easy to part with - convenience not. Let her have 3 years disqualification at least - catch the buhloody bus. Some repentence is needed here - and this sentence was a joke. No deterrence, and failed to address the problem. It was to be expected this hand slap, given the medias long grooming of the public to feel for the damsel in distress and potential tourist impacts had she received the sentence a Kiwi would have. Still - quite a shock, how slack it was.

[jonbuoy]

Whats worrying is that some people here can't understand how guilty and wretched she must feel for causing those deaths. Maybe because they themselves wouldn't feel bad about it?

[Usarka]

It's hard to look at these things objectively when you've been directly affected.

Even being tired can be a mistake.

I've driven when tired. It's a completely natural state for someone to be in. And it affects your decision making. Put me in jail for 3 years?

Sentencing of Austrian driver 'most difficult of my life' - judge
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10483305

The whole thing sucks and my sympathies to all involved.

[Paul in NZ]

No accident - either fatigue or less likely drugs (they don't test) would be my guess based on described sequence. Negligence clearcut anyway, and that would explain the guilt level, and her offer to pay all her life savings.

One years disqualification doesn't cut it. Money easy to part with - convenience not. Let her have 3 years disqualification at least - catch the buhloody bus. Some repentence is needed here - and this sentence was a joke. No deterrence, and failed to address the problem. It was to be expected this hand slap, given the medias long grooming of the public to feel for the damsel in distress and potential tourist impacts had she received the sentence a Kiwi would have. Still - quite a shock, how slack it was.

Bollocks - utter bollocks - not even close to what happened - keep guessing

[Timber020]

Putting a price on life is tricky, as is putting a payment on a person who is found responsible for taking a life. Whats a life worth. IF they are young/old/sick/parents/single/ex crims/honda riders/teminally ill?

what if shes a solo mum, or richard branson? How much do they pay? When we start making punishment a monetary thing, only those not rich enough to have a clever accountant and lawyer will ever pay. Im not rich, but find speeding fines a joke, its just money, I can make more, save to pay them or hock of some crap I dont need to get a few extra bucks. But its the points that are a killer, whether your a student, or eric watson, they are something that gets to everyone.

[candor]

She has had to meet the families of those killed, and they have forgiven her, even talking to her afterwards, all admitting that they know that it was an accident. So grow up people. Stop acting like ignorant red necks and ranting on about something you know shit about

Witnessing events in court is not the whole story!
There is a thing called "trauma bonding" which is why some I know working in restorative justice think it is not appropriate in cases involving serious harm.

I have experienced this and have seen it. It is a natural stage to rush to forgiveness of your family member/s killer - to want "closure" so bad and evewryone including the offender to come thru it ok. Often people wh've "forgiven" and "come to terms" with the offender later change their minds with more info (about what happened or the offender)

... and the realisation the guilty party is not really feeling as guilty as they say under pressure of sentencing... or soon after is clearly not so affected shown by reports back about their behaviour.

Often its quickly put behind them - then the victims wish they had not rushed to "make peace" and recommended leniency to the courts. Things may not be as tidy as they may seem - it's a long process.

[Paul in NZ]

I do Paul, take responsibility for my actions. I have changed my outlook significantly since that accident - that I was equally responsible for causing. I'm asking in a probably very blunt way that we all take responsibility for our actions and actually contribute to society rather than expecting only to take from it.
I am not offended by a comment that has no intended malice or acid. I respect that it is said with positive intent other than to solely defame and abuse which all to commonly seems to be the case at times (in the forum).

I teach my kids the three R's;
Respect for others
Respect for self
Responsibility for all your actions

I realised earlier this year that I should be following the same rationale.

Fair enough and I'm glad I you realise I was just using you as an example Col. Sorry I'm so grumpy - I blame the meds - oh hang on..... This is a terrible situation - in the event - from what I know and have been told the bikers probably didn't see the van until the last second and I doubt she saw them due to an 'obstruction'.

There is a horror in this and that horror is that everyday we all probably do something that could cause carnage if someone else just happened to be there. I see it everyday on the motorway, I've seen it every ride, KB or not. PRAY that you never get caught up in something like this, run into a child etc

She stuffed up - they had driven thousands of kms in NZ, she was NOT tired, they are not rich they are just ordinary people who still can't quite figure out what happened but would give it all to undo it but like intelligent folks - realise that they cannot - the money is meaningless but good on em for trying.

[YellowDog]

Guys, I personally have a big problem with ignorant road users on 4+ wheels. This was however was a clear accident and there was no mal-intent. The roads are full of such people. Did she make a mistake or is she just a very poor driver?

I doubt she will ever forget what she is responsible for, so that is a life sentence for her. If she had to pay $500k, then may be it would have been a better life-long reminder however it would not have recovered those lost lives or indeed helped the families deal with their devestating loss.

So what is the answer? In my opinion tougher road safety standards and 5 yearly competence tests would be a good start and help to increase road sense awareness to protect innocent lives.

[candor]

Bollocks - utter bollocks - not even close to what happened - keep guessing

Why keep guessing - its in the Herald article Usarka linked to. What do you see in it I don't?
Or are you saying they misreported it? And I do agre its a terrible situation - I wasn't meaning she should have been jailed at all - just reckon the sentence was under done in other ways, particularly the disqualification period.

[dmouse]

what was the point of the driving ban its only valid in nz and the money is nothing to her quote " from where ever in the world im i will remeber with you" so she is planing on going to other places and maybe carry on her career as a serial killer. a vehicle is a license to kill most people that kill someone on the road gets off with a small ban and small sentance some woman up the north island killed three and got three months in jail amd a ban and had the chek to appeal it, she was allready banned and drunk and smashed on drugs where is the justice

[Grahameeboy]

what was the point of the driving ban its only valid in nz and the money is nothing to her quote " from where ever in the world im i will remeber with you" so she is planing on going to other places and maybe carry on her career as a serial killer. a vehicle is a license to kill most people that kill someone on the road gets off with a small ban and small sentance some woman up the north island killed three and got three months in jail amd a ban and had the chek to appeal it, she was allready banned and drunk and smashed on drugs where is the justice

It was an accident, she did not do anything wrong before getting in the van like drinking etc. The chances of her otherwise killing 4 people were pretty remote and it was a simple case of wrong time, wrong place.

That women up North was drunk. It was not an accident and the chances of her killing 3 people were not so remote. She was not only drunk etc but was banned from driving so her driving attitude was so far removed from the tourist in the camper van

[Mom]

What a tragedy for everyone involved and connected with this horrible incident.

My spin for what it is worth is this...

Tourist comes here to NZ, driving a vehicle gets left hand wheels onto the shoulder of the road, over corrects and veers into the path of oncoming traffic. The oncoming traffic happened to be motorcycle riders.

She knows she is at fault, admits it and appears in court and faces the allowed consequences of her lack of control.

Lets not forget that 4 people, including a child died as a result of her loss of control of the vehicle, and she has to live with that for the rest of her life.

She has been ordered to pay a sum of money to the families of the people that she "killed by her actions" Depending on where you sit it is a lot or a little. It means nothing to the families and friends of the ones that have died, but she has to live with it!

An absolute tragedy for everyone!

[candor]

But Grahameeboy - "wrong time , wrong place" is just not true. Or she would not have been charged. This wasn't a tyre blow out - it was a human factor cause.

Not sure re disqualification Dormouse cos she was on International licence. Hopefully the disq applies elsewhere, but who knows?

[Ixion]

All the touchy feely huggie wuggie stuff about what a wonderful couple they are, how remorseful she is etc , is really quite irrelevant.

There are huge numbers of those camper van things driven by tourists all over the roads. I get stuck behind one almost every time I go out.

The next time I see one I do not want to have to wonder if it is suddenly going to veer across the road in front of me when it is too late to swerve or stop.

Turning your vehicle over on the wrong side of a straight road is not the act of a competent driver.

Barring a true act of God (the van being hit by lightening or something) then there are only two possibilities: either the driver was negligent, or the nature of the vehicle (on that road at any rate) was such that the driver was not able properly to control it.

If the latter, then the appropriate authorties need to take steps to review the licensing arrangments that allow such vehicles to be driven by drivers who have not demonstrated competence at driving them. If the former , then she was negligent, in which case it matters not one jot how remorseful she is or how "lovely" they are. Are we to accept that it is permissable to drive negligently if one is "nice", and will be remorseful when one kills someone ? Negligence is negligence , whether the negligent person be a lovely tourist or the nasty Mongrel Mob member around.

FWIW, my money's on the nature of the vehicle being unsuitable for untrained drivers. Punishing this person further would serve little purpose (the next plane load of tourists won't even know about it). So that won't stop another one doing the same thing, in front of me . Requiring a higher standard of licensing, or forbidding them from difficult roads, might do

(BTW, I wonder why a 30 years old architect would have life savings of only $30K ? Cash on hand of that much , maybe, but to have no other assets by her age, given her profession seems to indicate remarkable improvidence).

[Usarka]

Ixion, you may win that battle the same time as getting the authorities to accept driver/rider training is a good thing. It's only ever about speed, booze, drugs, tiredness etc.

[Number 5]

At least she's going to have a life to live, there's four souls who aren't because of her actions, and four familes who will miss them more than she will even start to realise. She'll pay her tiny fine, and get on with her life, mentally writing the event off as a result of a slippery road, or some other justifyable distraction.

Vifferman - If I were chosing the sentence, I'd make it something that reminds her for life, say, half of her earnings go to the families of the deceased.

That makes real sense, while not being able to compensate for the heartache, it would finacialy compensate the families and give her a sentence that she would remember for life.

[dmouse]

i agree it was very tragic and i feel so much for the ones that have to suffer the loss so much, but as has been said monetary value should and could not really be placed on a life, for justice really to work and be seen to be done right across the board no matter if your on your holidays here or pissed out of your head the law and courts need to understand and punish with sentences that fit the crime we are too soft in NZ too many namby pambies have power and idiots get off with stupid soft options and its allways the innocent that suffer just look at the joker that killed in the rsa gets his face bashed and gets a big payout from ACC or sues the ministry for not looking after him properly idiot jumps out of an aukland nick breaks both his legs gets paid $150,000 from acc tell me where the justice is you pay it on your rego and gas thats justice yes !!!

[Her_C4]

She stuffed up -

Yep that appears to about cover it.


so she is planing on going to other places and maybe carry on her career as a serial killer.

WHAT? Where the hell did this come from? I see a long and prosperous career for you as a reporter for the local rag.... who needs facts after all??



That women up North was drunk. It was not an accident and the chances of her killing 3 people were not so remote. She was not only drunk etc but was banned from driving so her driving attitude was so far removed from the tourist in the camper van

Yep - totally different situation, under totally different conditions




An absolute tragedy for everyone!

Very much a tragedy, and how sad that the KB kangaroo court has once again had its own retrial without knowing all available and relevant evidence.




FWIW, my money's on the nature of the vehicle being unsuitable for untrained drivers. Punishing this person further would serve little purpose (the next plane load of tourists won't even know about it). So that won't stop another one doing the same thing, in front of me . Requiring a higher standard of licensing, or forbidding them from difficult roads, might do


Now there is an option and a potential solution to help mitigate the risk of future 'stuff ups'. Anyone else got anything constructive to add?

[Usarka]

Very much a tragedy, and how sad that the KB kangaroo court has once again had its own retrial without knowing all available and relevant evidence.

Did you read the whole thread before making this sweeping statement putting everyone down?

there will always be extremes, but I for one am actually quite heartened by the balanced and reasonable responses by many on this one considering the tragic end result.

[MyGSXF]

After reading the latest newspaper article.. it seems to me that her boyfriend gave her a HUGE fright by yelling out, when he thought she was going to hit the roadside pole... <_<

years ago I was up a ladder painting the front of a hay barn roof.. standing & leaning on a ladder, with an icecream container of paint in my hand.. my boss (as a joke) grabbed & shook the bottom of the ladder & yelled "lookout".. scared the living CRAP outta me..:blink: I dropped the paint, grabbed the ladder in front of me & the jolt of my movements caused the ladder to slide sideways & down I fell. How I didn't end up with anything broken, I'll never know!!! :confused: but that simple & stupid act on her behalf, gave me a hell of a fright.. & could have so easily had SERIOUS consequences!! :eek5:

Who knows.. if her partner hadn't of yelled out like that.. maybe she might not have over corrected so much... :mellow:

I guess we can all sit here & surmise what happened.. but at the end of the day NOTHING is going to change the accident, or undo the loss & pain that will beset EVERYONE involved.. :(

[dmouse]

here is the quote from the www.stuff.co.nz "Heike and her partner, Alexander, want you to know that wherever in the world they may be, they too will be reflecting, remembering your loss and grieving with you."

Mr Raymond said it was the most difficult sentencing he could remember.

not my words or choice of them nor my choice of punishment, and anyone who has been to europe will know that the roads there are far superior to our country lane type roads that are not built or meant for speed, the short distance that she did was not enough to say she was used to the roads or changing conditions.

[AllanB]

I'd have to say there has been a few occasions over the years that I've nailed it into a corner in the twisties too fast and ended up on the wrong side of the road:Oops: Lucky for me the roads were empty.

The problem with the court sentence is that by fining her as stated several times here it tends to put a dollar value on the lost or injured life and at sub $8k per it comes across as an insult.

[discotex]

FWIW, my money's on the nature of the vehicle being unsuitable for untrained drivers. Punishing this person further would serve little purpose (the next plane load of tourists won't even know about it). So that won't stop another one doing the same thing, in front of me . Requiring a higher standard of licensing, or forbidding them from difficult roads, might do


You can't seriously be suggesting banning campervans?

I think you'd find the public were more inclined to ban vehicles where the occupants aren't suitably protected by a steel cage... Doesn't hurt tourism as much either. Reduces ACC payouts too.

It's also the last thing any of us would want.

Having to do a special course to rent a campervan or being limited to where I can take it is also something I wouldn't want.

[MarkyMark]

It's an interesting philosophical question, whether luck is morally relevant. What is the difference between the many of us who have accidentally been over the center line versus the driver of the campervan? We got lucky, she got unlucky. The results were undeniably tragic, but she is no more to blame than anyone else that has ever crossed the centerline accidentally and gotten away with it. She got unlucky, and her conscience will torment her forever, punitive punishments won't help the matter.

my $.02

[Usarka]

FWIW, my money's on the nature of the vehicle being unsuitable for untrained drivers.
We are allowed onto the road unsupervised after we've ridden around a couple of cones in a carpark.

As someone who obtained a car license before a bike, i found campervans/trucks no harder to come to grips with than a motorcycle.

[Conquiztador]

As grown ups we are all responsible for our actions. It should not matter if we are from another country or driving a camper van.

[Mikkel]

I'll refer to the first post I made in this thread - I believe it was page 2.


i WISH people would stop saying that sort of thing :(

we have no idea whether the person concerned even HAS a concience so dribbling on about how awful they'll feel for the rest of their lives is ..... just dribble


and all i know for sure is that i'd rather be her than the people she's killed

From these two statements I am afraid I'll have to conclude that you, had you been in the same situation, would have pleaded NOT GUILTY and thereby have caused the families of the deceased additional grief.
I'm not going to doubt that people have a conscience until it is proven otherwise - just like I am very happy to live in a part of the world where justice is served on an "innocent until proven guilty" basis.


So, what you are saying, is that vehicles that are known to be very unstable, to require extreme care and considerable skill, are allowed to be driven by drivers who (a) have no experience of them ; (b) are driving under very unfamiliar conditions ; (c) are driving long distances when they are probably unaccustomed to such long haul driving ; (d) are of unknown but possible limited experience in general.

Now, doesn't that sound like something that should be looked into.

Manifestly, the driver was incompetent. If that seems harsh, too bad. Competent drivers do not turn their vehicles over on a straight road. She was not (as far as we know) negligent, and the law allowed her to drive the vehicle. But she was incompetent. It is quite possible that most car drivers (myself included) would in fact be unable to drive such a vehicle competently . If so,then the design of the vehicle needs to be addressed.

Shit happens, but it happens a hell of a lot more often when there are not effective processes to prevent it happening.

Indeed it should be looked into! However, make no mistake, most of the driver and riders out there are indeed incompetent. The only thing that make about incompetent motorcyclists better than incompetent car drivers, is that they usually manage to remove themselves (and without much collateral damage mind you) pretty quickly.
And I think it would be easy to find a lot of statistics (and KB threads FWIW) to back that claim up...


THese are Just a few of the posts I found on the first page of this thread. How typical it is that you post about something you know NOTHING about.

Well I was in court today when this sentence happened, and I can tell you that it was highly emotional, and she will punish herself for the rest of her life. It was made perfectly clear to everyone there that this was all the money she had to give, and would give more if she could. THat this money was not a representative of how much there lives are worth- as no price is made on that. But the money was there to give, and to be dealt out as the Judge saw fit.

She has had to meet the families of those killed, and they have forgiven her, even talking to her afterwards, all admitting that they know that it was an accident.

So grow up people. Stop acting like ignorant red necks and ranting on about something you know shit about

Liv - sorry, I've spent my daily rep quota... but make no mistake that I shall put it on my to-do list for tomorrow. Good on ya Phoenix - she's a keeper :niceone:


Why therefore bother to charge her at all ? Serious question.

I can accept that the woman is remorseful. But what then has charging her accomplished? The $31K is meaningless , a pittance to the families of the dead , almost an insult. And it cannot (certainly should not) be a matter of any great account to her,compared to the remorse/guilt etc.

So, what has society achieved by charging her at all ?

Remember too, the charge was careless driving causing death . For such a charge to stick, it is manifestly necessary that greater care could have prevented the crash.

The fact that she pleaded guilty should IMHO be seen more as a statement of remorse than anything else. I bet there are some people in here who would have tried to get out of it easy if there was any chance that they could...
And yes, we shall never know if a careless charge would have been ultimately ratified by the jury!


... Revenge has no place in a civilised society.

And let's hope that the hardcore "bikies" around here will realise this sooner than later!


Forgive my cynicism, but I don't buy into the remorse business. I find it a lot more plausible that the lady is just happy that she escaped from what would have likely been a huge reparation, a couple of decades worth of community service, and disqualification for life in Austria, scot free.
The amount of reparations is ridiculous and regardless of what others have said "regarding rather preferring to have their loved ones back" (and I agree with this notion), it should have been a bit more punitive and just demonstrates the (ridiculously low) value the government places on human life.

If she wanted to flee the consequences of her actions she wouldn't have pleaded guilty now, would she? Again I sense someone of questionable morals... I shall add you to my to-do list for tomorrow as well. Albeit with another note than fireliv!


- In another country a married woman was sentenced to 200 lashes for having being raped (she was pardoned!), a teacher got jail sentence for calling a teddy bear Muhammed (she was also pardoned). Wonder what the sentence for killing 4 of those countries citicens with a camper would have been?

Indeed - people seem to forget the fact that we're living in a western country.


As I posted earlier - I've actually met this couple when I was in ChCh a few weeks back. I know a little more about the event than most of you and let me assure you that this very nice couple are utterly utterly devestated by this very unusual event that was not 100% their fault and yes - $31,000 does not seem much for a life but she offered everything she had to try and make amends - she offered it before it was demanded, the families involved, the court everyone who has had some involvement with this case agrees that there is a sadness about it because of the guilt and remose of these good people.

Frankly - the attitude of some people here, considering their own VERY pliable morals UTTERLY digusts me. You want to judge people? Look in the bloody mirror and pray there is no god - because one day you may just find yourself in the hot seat! These people stuffed up in an unlucky circumstance and a very bad thing happened. They are beyond sorry - save your bile for the repeat drink drivers, the deliberate overtakers and the serial abusers who DON'T care.

I didn't think I could be offended on KB any more - I was wrong...

You're a good man Paul, and a lot of bigots seem to have the "they're from Europe, they're loaded" mentality which is quite incorrect.
And people should bear in mind that she pleaded guilty and has offered all she's got.


Well personally I think she should pay reparation for the rest of her life, no matter where she lives.
$30k per year, NZ$, to the families.

And I think that you, sir, are an idiot. Live with it!


The article in Stuff re sentencing made clear it was no accident - but a crash. It strongly implied by her partners report she was nodding off. He said she was veering off the road toward a post. In Austria posts are solid not knock overable like ours. So he yelled at her - this must have given her a jolt from her ?nap because when he yelled she pulled hard right. Would you do that - over correct if awake?? If you're not fit to drive or paying attention...

No accident - either fatigue or less likely drugs (they don't test) would be my guess based on described sequence. Negligence clearcut anyway, and that would explain the guilt level, and her offer to pay all her life savings.

One years disqualification doesn't cut it. Money easy to part with - convenience not. Let her have 3 years disqualification at least - catch the buhloody bus. Some repentence is needed here - and this sentence was a joke. No deterrence, and failed to address the problem. It was to be expected this hand slap, given the medias long grooming of the public to feel for the damsel in distress and potential tourist impacts had she received the sentence a Kiwi would have. Still - quite a shock, how slack it was.

Yeah, we all know that those Austrians are druggies... JFC if you have so much faith in the journalistic integrety of the NZ press I have a bridge you can buy very cheaply...


Bollocks - utter bollocks - not even close to what happened - keep guessing

It's not like we could stop them from guessing... :rolleyes:

to be continued

[Mikkel]

CONTINUED

Witnessing events in court is not the whole story!
There is a thing called "trauma bonding" which is why some I know working in restorative justice think it is not appropriate in cases involving serious harm.

I have experienced this and have seen it. It is a natural stage to rush to forgiveness of your family member/s killer - to want "closure" so bad and evewryone including the offender to come thru it ok. Often people wh've "forgiven" and "come to terms" with the offender later change their minds with more info (about what happened or the offender)

... and the realisation the guilty party is not really feeling as guilty as they say under pressure of sentencing... or soon after is clearly not so affected shown by reports back about their behaviour.

Often its quickly put behind them - then the victims wish they had not rushed to "make peace" and recommended leniency to the courts. Things may not be as tidy as they may seem - it's a long process.

As I mentioned above we're part of the western civilisation. The only common denominator for that gathering of nations is a background in christianity (like it or not). A couple of the central themes in christianity are intent, action, penance and forgiveness. Unless you would prefer the old ways of an-eye-for-an-eye I suggest you realise that:

There was no intent.
No active action to cause injury.
All possible ways of penance has been explored by the driver.
The relatives of the diseased have forgiven the driver.

Your pseudo psychology may be correct - but if it helps everyone involved to move on, give it a rest.


Guys, I personally have a big problem with ignorant road users on 4+ wheels.

I also have a problem with ignorant road users on 2 wheels!


All the touchy feely huggie wuggie stuff about what a wonderful couple they are, how remorseful she is etc , is really quite irrelevant.

There are huge numbers of those camper van things driven by tourists all over the roads. I get stuck behind one almost every time I go out.

The next time I see one I do not want to have to wonder if it is suddenly going to veer across the road in front of me when it is too late to swerve or stop.

Turning your vehicle over on the wrong side of a straight road is not the act of a competent driver.

Barring a true act of God (the van being hit by lightening or something) then there are only two possibilities: either the driver was negligent, or the nature of the vehicle (on that road at any rate) was such that the driver was not able properly to control it.

If the latter, then the appropriate authorties need to take steps to review the licensing arrangments that allow such vehicles to be driven by drivers who have not demonstrated competence at driving them. If the former , then she was negligent, in which case it matters not one jot how remorseful she is or how "lovely" they are. Are we to accept that it is permissable to drive negligently if one is "nice", and will be remorseful when one kills someone ? Negligence is negligence , whether the negligent person be a lovely tourist or the nasty Mongrel Mob member around.

FWIW, my money's on the nature of the vehicle being unsuitable for untrained drivers. Punishing this person further would serve little purpose (the next plane load of tourists won't even know about it). So that won't stop another one doing the same thing, in front of me . Requiring a higher standard of licensing, or forbidding them from difficult roads, might do

(BTW, I wonder why a 30 years old architect would have life savings of only $30K ? Cash on hand of that much , maybe, but to have no other assets by her age, given her profession seems to indicate remarkable improvidence).

You are very correct here Ixion. However, we all live our lives differently and as I wrote earlier, Austria is not a rich country by any means.

:done:

[fireliv]

Witnessing events in court is not the whole story!
There is a thing called "trauma bonding" which is why some I know working in restorative justice think it is not appropriate in cases involving serious harm.

I have experienced this and have seen it. It is a natural stage to rush to forgiveness of your family member/s killer - to want "closure" so bad and evewryone including the offender to come thru it ok. Often people wh've "forgiven" and "come to terms" with the offender later change their minds with more info (about what happened or the offender)

... and the realisation the guilty party is not really feeling as guilty as they say under pressure of sentencing... or soon after is clearly not so affected shown by reports back about their behaviour.

Often its quickly put behind them - then the victims wish they had not rushed to "make peace" and recommended leniency to the courts. Things may not be as tidy as they may seem - it's a long process.

I see many court cases a day, and I know what I saw and heard in this one.
That may be true, but who are we to Judge????

[candor]

I see many court cases a day, and I know what I saw and heard in this one.

Yep well, that picture on the steps of the Court did show remorse with capital R, so you prolly do know what you saw. Funny how the views in this thread are so polarised - I'm sure the penalty in Austria would have been more severe, but then the time spent here in a strange Country awaiting legal resolution must have been...(lost for word). Not much can be added here, but that input from Ixion is good - as in; if it's a mismatch to vehicle / skill then what? Tyical for NZ - sweep it under carpet till next time I guess :argh:.

[Conquiztador]

CONTINUED

You are very correct here Ixion. However, we all live our lives differently and as I wrote earlier, Austria is not a rich country by any means.

:done:

Perhaps not the richest country in the world. But they do not do badly. The average weekly income in 2006 was NZ$ 880.00. In NZ we had in 2006 an average of $610.00.

[Shadows]

Perhaps not the richest country in the world. But they do not do badly. The average weekly income in 2006 was NZ$ 880.00. In NZ we had in 2006 an average of $610.00.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
I suspect that Austria doesn't have a large population of Labour voters on the dole in places like South Auckland bringing the national average down either.

[steveb64]

Perhaps not the richest country in the world. But they do not do badly. The average weekly income in 2006 was NZ$ 880.00. In NZ we had in 2006 an average of $610.00.

So all this proves is that our income is good for a third world country, and Austria's is bad for a first world country. :(

[mynameis]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10483305

Discuss my fellow bikers. What are your thoughts about this? Fair/Unfair Just/Unjust. Rational reasons please?

Thanks,

[fuknKIWI]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10483305

Discuss my fellow bikers. What are your thoughts about this? Fair/Unfair Just/Unjust. Rational reasons please?

Thanks,
In one word;
Disgustice

[Drum]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=63316

[Grahameeboy]

I disagree.................even the Family of the deceased seem to have been supportive of the driver.

She was not fined but had to pay $30,000 and she was still banned from driving in NZ for 12 months so whats the problem. She was a tourist so she has to go home.

What do you think should have happened?

[mynameis]

Ask the question was it morally right and ethical?

Make comparisons of other crimes and punishment given?

Why does our judicial system work the way it is.

Does the punishment fit or not? Why?

[denill]

What a strange tone this thread has. Money seems to matter? To most the amount of money is important?

It was an accident. A TRAGIC accident.

NOTHING will make it right and in fact NOTHING will make it better for those whose lives have been taken - or for those whose lives have been affected.

Get off your high horses and stop spouting glib comments - as there but for the grace of god go any one of us. Driver or victim.

I feel so sorry for EVERYONE involved.

[swbarnett]

When the consequesnces of just 'having an accident' are so high? Yes I do think that the punishment for this is a joke. Especially when you compare it to other crimes such as tax fraud.
Yes, but tax fraud is a deliberate act. This accident wasn't.

[jonbuoy]

All the touchy feely huggie wuggie stuff about what a wonderful couple they are, how remorseful she is etc , is really quite irrelevant.

There are huge numbers of those camper van things driven by tourists all over the roads. I get stuck behind one almost every time I go out.

The next time I see one I do not want to have to wonder if it is suddenly going to veer across the road in front of me when it is too late to swerve or stop.

Turning your vehicle over on the wrong side of a straight road is not the act of a competent driver.

Barring a true act of God (the van being hit by lightening or something) then there are only two possibilities: either the driver was negligent, or the nature of the vehicle (on that road at any rate) was such that the driver was not able properly to control it.

If the latter, then the appropriate authorties need to take steps to review the licensing arrangments that allow such vehicles to be driven by drivers who have not demonstrated competence at driving them. If the former , then she was negligent, in which case it matters not one jot how remorseful she is or how "lovely" they are. Are we to accept that it is permissable to drive negligently if one is "nice", and will be remorseful when one kills someone ? Negligence is negligence , whether the negligent person be a lovely tourist or the nasty Mongrel Mob member around.

FWIW, my money's on the nature of the vehicle being unsuitable for untrained drivers. Punishing this person further would serve little purpose (the next plane load of tourists won't even know about it). So that won't stop another one doing the same thing, in front of me . Requiring a higher standard of licensing, or forbidding them from difficult roads, might do

(BTW, I wonder why a 30 years old architect would have life savings of only $30K ? Cash on hand of that much , maybe, but to have no other assets by her age, given her profession seems to indicate remarkable improvidence).

Yeah right because camper vans kill more kiwi motorcyclist than other form of transport. I'd be more worried about the local lunatic late for work overtaking on a blind corner if I were you.

[James Deuce]

Ixion's only in a snit because bikers were killed. If it had been a mini-bus full of school kids they hit (God forbid) there wouldn't be anything like the rant about "injustice" on KB that's been raging around this one.

If I died driving a car tomorrow (maybe even run into by a Drunk driver!), or got hit by a bus, or fell under a train at a train crossing, it would barely raise a murmur on KB. Get hit by someone who has an accident where their vehicle ended up on the wrong side of the road, a common occurrence when a motorcyclists "bins" on a country road, and the evil "cage" drivers must be punished, justice must be seen to be done.

I think single vehicle binning should attract an automatic Careless charge. You've proved you can't keep a motorcycle upright by falling off it. Then listen to the rants on KB about what an injustice the Careless charge was, it wasn't my fault there was cow poo (how many times have we told him!)/diesel/pea gravel on that corner, was it?

[Usarka]

Good point about the bins.

This is something to keep in mind for all the people who think "binning" is an acceptable occurence on the roads. One day you might take out someone else in the process.....

And it might be your hanging that people are calling for.

(it can't have been my fault, I'm a good rider)

[Blue Velvet]

Ixion's only in a snit because bikers were killed. If it had been a mini-bus full of school kids they hit (God forbid) there wouldn't be anything like the rant about "injustice" on KB that's been raging around this one.

But, um, this is a bikers forum...

Shrinks and fades into the dark recesses again :shutup:

[MSTRS]

What a strange tone this thread has. Money seems to matter? To most the amount of money is important?

It was an accident. A TRAGIC accident.

NOTHING will make it right and in fact NOTHING will make it better for those whose lives have been taken - or for those whose lives have been affected.

Get off your high horses and stop spouting glib comments - as there but for the grace of god go any one of us. Driver or victim.

I feel so sorry for EVERYONE involved.

A truly sensible post. Pity there have been so few on here.
What the fuck makes so many of you think this was a deliberate act, with a total lack of remorse? Why, anyone would think the woman at the centre of this is down the pub, laughing at us Kiwis, all the while she is tanking up on Schnapps getting ready for her next spree-kill.
Get real. I can't believe the drivel I'm reading from some normally respected posters.

[Blue Velvet]

What the fuck makes so many of you think this was a deliberate act, with a total lack of remorse? Why, anyone would think the woman at the centre of this is down the pub, laughing at us Kiwis, all the while she is tanking up on Schnapps getting ready for her next spree-kill.
Get real. I can't believe the drivel I'm reading from some normally respected posters.

I certainly wasn't suggesting a deliberate act on the tourist's part. I know she didn't purposely veer into the shingle then over correct in order to hit the bikers. If it was me I'd probably want to top myself if I caused something like this.

But I still stand by my assertion that there is too much carelessness and inattentiveness on NZ roads.

[imdying]

i WISH people would stop saying that sort of thing :(

we have no idea whether the person concerned even HAS a concience so dribbling on about how awful they'll feel for the rest of their lives is ..... just dribbleEveryone has one... and nobody gets to ignore theirs forever...

Hopefully the bikers were saved and have gone to a better place anyway :yes:

[Street Gerbil]

What the fuck makes so many of you think this was a deliberate act, with a total lack of remorse?
Her remorse or lack thereof has nothing to do with deliberateness of her action.
However, even involuntary vehicular manslaughter is still a felony in most parts of the world.

[Blue Velvet]

Her remorse or lack thereof has nothing to do with deliberateness of her action.
However, even involuntary vehicular manslaughter is still a felony in most parts of the world.

+1

10 char

[imdying]

Forgive my cynicism, but I don't buy into the remorse business. I find it a lot more plausible that the lady is just happy that she escaped from what would have likely been a huge reparation, a couple of decades worth of community service, and disqualification for life in Austria, scot free.The evilness in your heart will eventually consume you, and that's sad :(


Well personally I think she should pay reparation for the rest of her life, no matter where she lives.
$30k per year, NZ$, to the families.I wouldn't need the constant reminder if I were them, there would be too many of those anyway.


FWIW, my money's on the nature of the vehicle being unsuitable for untrained drivers. Punishing this person further would serve little purpose (the next plane load of tourists won't even know about it). So that won't stop another one doing the same thing, in front of me . Requiring a higher standard of licensing, or forbidding them from difficult roads, might doAgreed... they're a truck.

[jonbuoy]

So should they send this old boy to the chair?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3534320.stm

Woman killed in chainsaw accident
A woman who was killed when her husband fell off a ladder onto her while using an electric chainsaw has been named.

Police said Pauline Pudney, 57, died instantly from serious injuries at a house in Eltham, south-east London, at about 1630 BST on Monday.

The death is not being treated as suspicious and Scotland Yard described it as a "tragic accident".

The woman's 56-year-old husband is being treated for shock in hospital, a police spokeswoman said.

A post-mortem examination on Wednesday identified the cause of death as severe trauma to the neck.

In a statement, police said: "It was a really tragic accident. He [Mr Pudney] is obviously in a great deal of shock.

"A man aged 56 had been pruning a tree when he fell back off the ladder and the chainsaw he had been using seriously injured his wife.

"She was not decapitated. The woman was killed instantly."

[Street Gerbil]

So should they send this old boy to the chair?
You know, vehicular offenses are distinguished from other types for a reason.
Falling off the ladder with a chainsaw falls into the category of freak accidents, driving a vehicle well beyond one's ability to operate safely does not.

[jrandom]

The evilness in your heart will eventually consume you, and that's sad :(

...

I wouldn't need the constant reminder if I were them, there would be too many of those anyway.

*peers at imdying, prods him with a stick*

Alian bodysnatchers have obviously been at work; our resident sociopath appears to have grown an empathy gland.

For what it's worth, I agree - the crash was almost certainly the tragic result of an unskilled driver being let out onto the road in a heavy vehicle for which she should not have had an operating licence.

:no:

[James Deuce]

Her remorse or lack thereof has nothing to do with deliberateness of her action.
However, even involuntary vehicular manslaughter is still a felony in most parts of the world.
Yes but not in NZ. If you want it changed, you know what to do.

[Mikkel]

So should they send this old boy to the chair?

"She was not decapitated. The woman was killed instantly."

Crikey! :eek: Chainsaws are a nasty way to go!


You know, vehicular offenses are distinguished from other types for a reason.
Falling off the ladder with a chainsaw falls into the category of freak accidents, driving a vehicle well beyond one's ability to operate safely does not.

Oh, no freak accidents when we're talking motoring. You just keep on telling yourself that... I guess you could argue that if you have a crash under any circumstances imaginable then you're driving a vehicle a vehicle well beyond your ability to operate safely.
However, I don't buy into that bullshit! Competent drivers can loose control as well - whether they are pushing the envelope or not.

But no doubt, there should be a revision of the rules pertaining to camper van rentals.

[scumdog]

"driving a vehicle well beyond one's ability to operate safely does not."

In that case a shit-load of KBers should sell their bikes and hand in their licences!!!

Sheeesh!

[MSTRS]

But no doubt, there should be a revision of the rules pertaining to camper van rentals.

Why just campers? It is legal for anyone on a (full?) car licence to drive a vehicle up to a tare weight of 4500kg - campers are just one of a number of 'truck' based platforms that fall into this weight range.

[Grahameeboy]

In that case a shit-load of KBers should sell their bikes and hand in their licences!!!

Sheeesh!

Love it....... plus of course some don't even have a licence to hand in eh....this tourist had travelled 1000k's or so already without accident so clearly she was capable of handling the camper van.

[denill]

But I still stand by my assertion that there is too much carelessness and inattentiveness on NZ roads.

And you have never stuffed up Blue Velvet?? :no: :no:

[KATWYN]

you people that are crucifying this woman need to read this

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/071219/3/3crz.html?f=mv

[Blue Velvet]

And you have never stuffed up Blue Velvet?? :no: :no:

I haven't ever caused anyone else to have a road accident, if that's what you're asking.

Don't attack me for stating that, in general, there are careless and inattentive drivers on the roads. I didn't say the tourist was. I questioned what caused her to veer into the shingle in the first place. That wasn't accusatory on my part.

And don't attack me for pointing out that 'accidents' are an all too accepted excuse. People need to take more responsibility for their actions. Many people don't admit their mistakes. So they walk away from situations without learning anything from them. Again, I never said the tourist is guilty of this. How could I possibly know?

During the course of this week I've witnessed so many near miss head-on's etc. caused by people not paying attention or taking dumb risks, to name a couple.

I personally don't care about the tourist's fine etc. As I've previously noted, I don't wish ill on her. I'm sure she feels shit already. I know I would.

[Ixion]

Love it....... plus of course some don't even have a licence to hand in eh....this tourist had travelled 1000k's or so already without accident so clearly she was capable of handling the camper van.

Clearly, she was not, because she ended up putting the vehicle on its side on the wrong side of the road. Crashed on the wrong side of the road is, barring acts of gods or vehicle failure, incompetence. So, for Mr Jim2's benefit, is putting ones bike into the ditch on a corner. If anyone thinks that crashing is a mark of competence, I wish them to keep well away from anywhere I am , please.



And you have never stuffed up Blue Velvet

I do not know about Ms Velevet. But for myself, I have (like most people) stuffed up. When I have I have considered that as an indication that I was not competent under the particular conditions. And taken steps to address that incompetence.

In the case of the Austrienne, it is necessary to distinguish between incompetence and culpability. She was not culpable, she was told that ,as an experienced car driver, she would have no trouble controlling the vehicle she hired. She had no reason to question that. But, manifestly , it was wrong.

Punishing her would achieve little purpose. But , the law has said that if you kill a motorcyclist by incompetent driving, and pay his family $8000, then that's all good and fine. No problems. Which to me is an unacceptable state of affairs.



Ixion's only in a snit because bikers were killed. If it had been a mini-bus full of school kids they hit (God forbid) there wouldn't be anything like the rant about "injustice" on KB that's been raging around this one.


And would you seriously contend that her sentence would not have been much greater had she taken out a bus load of kids? Or, indeed, anyone other than some motorcyclists? Why are you so surprised and aggrieved that bikers, on a biker forum, should be in a "snit" when someone kills bikers?

I do not understand thae attitude of you and Mr Katman, that bikers are always in the wrong, and other road users have no responsibility or accountability at all. It seems a perverse masochism.

[imdying]

Love it....... plus of course some don't even have a licence to hand in eh....this tourist had travelled 1000k's or so already without accident so clearly she was capable of handling the camper van.I'm not sure that 1000kms of 'good luck' makes her qualified to drive what is essentially a light truck?

[Ixion]

you people that are crucifying this woman need to read this

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/071219/3/3crz.html?f=mv

I do not see that the article contributes anything further? It is exactly the same as the ones in the newspapers. She had a good lawyer. And the dead were only motorcyclists. Worth $8000 a life, in the estimation of the learned judge.

[vifferman]

I'm not sure that 1000kms of 'good luck' makes her qualified to drive what is essentially a light truck?
I don't think anyone could be termed "qualified" to drive anything, until they've had experience in all kinds of situations such as driving in adverse conditions, on difficult roads, practicing emergency crash avoidance manouevres, etc.
But so what? Even if she (or anyone else) had gained that kind of experience in 1000km, it doesn't mean they're not going to make mistakes.

To err is human, to forgive divine.

[Katman]

I do not understand thae attitude of you and Mr Katman, that bikers are always in the wrong, and other road users have no responsibility or accountability at all. It seems a perverse masochism.

Where have I ever stated that bikers are always in the wrong. I have only ever said that in most circumstances there is something that the motorcyclist could have done to avoid the accident (regardless of who is at fault).

But then, you're always shown a remarkable ability to manipulate what someone says to suit your own agenda.

[jrandom]

She had a good lawyer.

She's quite hawt, too.

Helps enormously.

[Grahameeboy]

Clearly, she was not, because she ended up putting the vehicle on its side on the wrong side of the road. Crashed on the wrong side of the road is, barring acts of gods or vehicle failure, incompetence. So, for Mr Jim2's benefit, is putting ones bike into the ditch on a corner. If anyone thinks that crashing is a mark of competence, I wish them to keep well away from anywhere I am , please.

Oh dear......as usual you miss the point. She was competent for a few 1000k's and it was an unfortunate accident. For all we know she may not have even hit the post and the passenger, having looked up after reading the map, over reacted and in the agony of the moment (which is not negligent) the driver swerved.

I do not know about Ms Velevet. But for myself, I have (like most people) stuffed up. When I have I have considered that as an indication that I was not competent under the particular conditions. And taken steps to address that incompetence.

So who say she will not do that?

In the case of the Austrienne, it is necessary to distinguish between incompetence and culpability. She was not culpable, she was told that ,as an experienced car driver, she would have no trouble controlling the vehicle she hired. She had no reason to question that. But, manifestly , it was wrong.

Mmm, she controlled it for a few 1000k's. How does an accident make someone incomptent. She was culpable for the accident because she was the driver. Big difference.

Punishing her would achieve little purpose. But , the law has said that if you kill a motorcyclist by incompetent driving, and pay his family $8000, then that's all good and fine. No problems. Which to me is an unacceptable state of affairs.

If it was fine then the Law would have not banned her or ordered her to pay reparation........but they did so I guess the Law did not think what she did was fine and no problems......or am I missing something?



And would you seriously contend that her sentence would not have been much greater had she taken out a bus load of kids? Or, indeed, anyone other than some motorcyclists? Why are you so surprised and aggrieved that bikers, on a biker forum, should be in a "snit" when someone kills bikers?

The outcome is down to circumstances. The chances or her having this accident at the same time as a bike run were, it is fair to say, pretty slim. So her negligence should not just be judged by the outcome so if she had killed just 1 person, the circumstances of her actions ie what she did or did not do are the same.


I do not understand thae attitude of you and Mr Katman, that bikers are always in the wrong, and other road users have no responsibility or accountability at all. It seems a perverse masochism.

Where did you get that gem from?

...............

[Grahameeboy]

I do not see that the article contributes anything further? It is exactly the same as the ones in the newspapers. She had a good lawyer. And the dead were only motorcyclists. Worth $8000 a life, in the estimation of the learned judge.

There is no value on a life Ixion. Even in Countries like UK and the States, only live dependants can claim compensation for their loss.

You may find that the figures are to cover funeral costs, maybe other damages.

The Court is not saying that the dead were worth $8,000.

[Street Gerbil]

Competent drivers can loose control as well - whether they are pushing the envelope or not.
Agreed. But if your only riding experience is on GN250 and you rent a Goldwing, you are a lot more likely to get into trouble. Especially on an unfamiliar, narrow, twisted, and poorly paved road. Especially when you have to drive on the other side of the road and your every instinct screams you to move to the lane belonging to the oncoming traffic.

[KATWYN]

I do not see that the article contributes anything further? It is exactly the same as the ones in the newspapers. She had a good lawyer. And the dead were only motorcyclists. Worth $8000 a life, in the estimation of the learned judge.

Take a look at her face....is that the expression of a person happy they "got away" with a just fine and loss of licence because of their good lawyer?

Or is that the look of a distressed person who will carry this for the rest of her life. 4 lives lost, 2 injured. Thats one huge burden to carry around. How would people that are dissing her feel if she goes back home and commits suicide over this?? Then that would be 5 lives lost and 2 injured due to this tragedy.

There was no alcohol or drugs involved in this accident.

At the yelling of her partner, she reacted to avoid hitting the post on the side of the road (which in her country is a solid object - but flexible in NZ) She over corrected.

Who of us has ever over corrected before and been lucky enough to not kill someone in doing so?

It is terrible tragedy

[Grahameeboy]

I'm not sure that 1000kms of 'good luck' makes her qualified to drive what is essentially a light truck?

I guess she may have had some driving experience in Austria?

Campers are easy to drive anyway

Still based on your view I guess we should applaud the 70k limit for learners eh? Don't want their luck to run out now do we

[Marmoot]

An eye for an eye makes two blind men.
So, let those without sin casts the first stone...fucken bigots



Makes me ashamed of being a motorcyclists!

[scumdog]

[SIZE=1For what it's worth, I agree - the crash was almost certainly the tragic result of an unskilled driver being let out onto the road in a heavy vehicle for which she should not have had an operating licence.
:no:

For what it's worth the roads of NZ are littered with overseas drivers with 'o' driving experience in the rantal vehicle they sit behind the wheel of.

In Q'town court an Indian tourist in a rental who drove there from Ch-ch was busted for high speeds, overtaking in face of oncoming traffic and on yellow lines (sounds like a KB bike ride eh? eh?)

Just had NO real driving experience and found the cost of hiring a driver too expensive:gob:

It's a wonder there's not more similar tragedies - one almost gets the impression that rental companies swipe the Visa, throw a set of keys at the tourist and kick the door shut behind their arse.

[jrandom]

How would people that are dissing her feel if she goes back home and commits suicide over this??

That would be a terrible waste of a reasonably hot blonde in perfect working order.


Who of us has ever over corrected before and been lucky enough to not kill someone in doing so?

I've fucked up corners on bikes a handful of times and spent the next hour in a cold sweat, knowing full well that if there'd been another vehicle in the way I'd be dead.

Never had such a thing happen on four wheels, though.

[MSTRS]

Never had such a thing happen on four wheels, though.

"never" is only up until now.
Every time anyone is on the road, there is a chance of fucking up or being involved in someone else's fuck up.

[jrandom]

Every time anyone is on the road, there is a chance of fucking up or being involved in someone else's fuck up.

'tain't a random chance.

We control our own destiny when operating a vehicle. A fuckup is a fuckup, pure and simple.

[imdying]

Still based on your view I guess we should applaud the 70k limit for learners eh?I don't see why not... it keeps them off unsuitable (for learners) stretches of road like motorways...

[Katman]

We control our own destiny when operating a vehicle.

Careful, we almost sound like we're on the same team.:msn-wink:

[MSTRS]

' A fuckup is a fuckup, pure and simple.

It sure is, but still random...I mean, one does not go out with the thought that 'today I am going to fuckup at 2.33pm on this bit of road and there will be a motorist in just the right place to make this fuckup tragic'.

[mstriumph]

:doh: Do you honestly think that from the times she has been shown live on tv & what she said in her statements etc.. she is some kind of dropkick loser who doesn't have a heart??? :pinch: oh sheesh!!
talk is cheap and emotion can be manufactured
---- and, as for sincerity, if you can fake that you've got it made ...- ask any politician




I wouldn't want to be ANY of them! not victims, families or the driver :mellow: ...............
if you'da said that in your first post i wouldn't have commented ..... just your sole mention of the supposed sufferings of the poor driver [irony] raised my hackles is all..... :sunny:

[Grahameeboy]

I don't see why not... it keeps them off unsuitable (for learners) stretches of road like motorways...

I would say that 70kph on the motorway is actually dangerous when most of the traffic is going faster but would agree with other roads, however, that was not my point

[Grahameeboy]

oh sheesh!!
talk is cheap and emotion can be manufactured
---- and, as for sincerity, if you can fake that you've got it made ...- ask any politician



if you'da said that in your first post i wouldn't have commented ..... just your sole mention of the supposed sufferings of the poor driver [irony] raised my hackles is all..... :sunny:

I would say the driver is suffering the outcome of her actions....I know I would if that had been me..........nothing in wrong in pointing that out.

[Dilligaf]

And the dead were only motorcyclists. Worth $8000 a life, in the estimation of the learned judge.

Yes indeed let's go there.... $8000 too little you say? Well then let's start working out how much would be appropriate. I see that others have suggested perhaps $30 000 / year. Why not work out exactly how much a life is worth then..
Hmm, I guess we must take into consideration lots of things right? Perhaps a good start would be how much that person has added to society... well, then, we start with their tax contribution. (backs up yet anyone?) Of course, beneficiaries cost us as a society so of course it would follow that their life would be worth less right? Hmm, guess that means that children would be worth less too.. unless you could work out statistically their future worth to society - their chance of becoming a bonus or a burden to society. Slippery slope that one because of course some people rise above their circumstances... but I'm sure we could come up with some formula based on their socio-economic status and future earnings potential...
Bonus points could be awarded for volunteer work, negative for excessive use of public money (public hospital visits, time spent in prison etc)...
What? Some of you getting a little uncomfortable where this is headed? Gosh, I would have thought this was a natural progression. Argue about the sum of money and surely it follows that there is a 'perfect' figure. How else does one work it out?

[Mikkel]

Agreed. But if your only riding experience is on GN250 and you rent a Goldwing, you are a lot more likely to get into trouble. Especially on an unfamiliar, narrow, twisted, and poorly paved road. Especially when you have to drive on the other side of the road and your every instinct screams you to move to the lane belonging to the oncoming traffic.

Have you ever tried driving somewhere where you drive on the other side of the road than you're used to? If not, let me tell you that your instinct doesn't scream anything at all...
I don't know about the GN vs. Goldwing comparison - I've understood that Goldwings are quite easy to drive, but very hard to pick up if you tip them over.

Still, this didn't happen on a narrow, twisted and poorly paved road from what I could tell.


I don't see why not... it keeps them off unsuitable (for learners) stretches of road like motorways...

Not all learners are equal - and the 70 km/h restriction is bullshit. :done:


oh sheesh!!
talk is cheap and emotion can be manufactured
---- and, as for sincerity, if you can fake that you've got it made ...- ask any politician

Takes one to know one?


As for discussing the driving experience that the Austrienne may or may not have - we have NO way of knowing. She could hold a class 5 license with all endorsements for all we know. ...and the situation could still have occurred.
It isn't that long ago that an experience bus driver threw a Kiwibus down a cliff over near Franz Josef. And some time before that another Kiwibus driver managed to flip a fucking bus on the 90 mile beach. I can't remember the details of these cases and the drivers could have been right fuckwits - but still, accidents happens to everyone.
FFS - why would people like Ayrton Senna otherwise crash and die everynow and again?

[imdying]

I would say that 70kph on the motorway is actually dangerous when most of the traffic is going faster but would agree with other roads, however, that was not my pointI never picked you as that thick... they're not supposed to be on the motorway as a learner motorcyclist... that's why they make it a 70 limit for them... saves them having to say no motorway/highway/80km/hr zone/etc/etc/etc... you're not allowed to ride anywhere faster than a 70 zone (cause then you'd be breaking another law... riding too slow and causing a nuisance or some crap).

[imdying]

Not all learners are equal - and the 70 km/h restriction is bullshit. :done:Yeah mate, lowest common denominator though... they do however give you a way out of that... it's called the restricted :scooter:

[mstriumph]

oh, this is fun



Originally Posted by mstriumph
i WISH people would stop saying that sort of thing

we have no idea whether the person concerned even HAS a concience so dribbling on about how awful they'll feel for the rest of their lives is ..... just dribble

Originally Posted by mstriumph
and all i know for sure is that i'd rather be her than the people she's killed

From these two statements I am afraid I'll have to conclude that you, had you been in the same situation, would have pleaded NOT GUILTY and thereby have caused the families of the deceased additional grief.
I'm not going to doubt that people have a conscience until it is proven otherwise - just like I am very happy to live in a part of the world where justice is served on an "innocent until proven guilty" basis.
forgive me for nitpicking, but aren't YOU the one that's commenting at length about people jumping to conclusions based on scant evidence or appearances? :innocent:

personally, i'm not only the one pleading guilty, i'm the one helping clear the mangled debris, carry the dying, dig the graves, scrub the tombstones for the remainder of my days or whatever other ghastly thing i could think of [that wouldn't cause further upset] to even marginally atone in the slightest most insignificant way for the havoc i'd wrought ..... for me, thinking that any amount of money could expiate the guilt i would feel is laughable.

but i don't make the error of thinking every other inadvertant killer must feel the way i do

i am me

other people are just that - someone else

any supposition any third party makes about EITHER of us is conjecture

and there is a difference between fact and conjecture


there's only one thing that can be said with any certainty and that is WE DON'T KNOW
with respect, that was all i was trying to point out. :corn:

[Grahameeboy]

I never picked you as that thick... they're not supposed to be on the motorway as a learner motorcyclist... that's why they make it a 70 limit for them... saves them having to say no motorway/highway/80km/hr zone/etc/etc/etc... you're not allowed to ride anywhere faster than a 70 zone (cause then you'd be breaking another law... riding too slow and causing a nuisance or some crap).

Well I have seen learners on the motorway and assumed it was different over here. I mean they are not real motorways anyway.

Thanks for the heads up.

[mstriumph]

...................


Takes one to know one?...........

tsk tsk
the only LAUDABLE thing about this debate-to-date is that participants have mostly AVOIDED schoolyard namecalling and infantile personal abuse

but there always has to be one, doesn't there :nono:

sorry, Mikkel - unable to descend to your level so i'll stop here.

merry christmas

[Mikkel]

Yeah mate, lowest common denominator though... they do however give you a way out of that... it's called the restricted :scooter:


forgive me for nitpicking, but aren't YOU the one that's commenting at length about people jumping to conclusions based on scant evidence or appearances? :innocent:

I have to give you that - my wording was imprecise. I'd change it to "... afraid will lead me to think that you might, ..."


personally, i'm not only the one pleading guilty, i'm the one helping clear the mangled debris, carry the dying, dig the graves, scrub the tombstones for the remainder of my days or whatever other ghastly thing i could think of [that wouldn't cause further upset] to even marginally atone in the slightest most insignificant way for the havoc i'd wrought ..... for me, thinking that any amount of money could expiate the guilt i would feel is laughable.

That is indeed good to know. And yes, I agree that the amount of money are irrelevant - whether they can expiate the guilt or not, they can be seen as a gesture of accepting responsibility.


but i don't make the error of thinking every other inadvertant killer must feel the way i do

Of course not, but with compassion comes the thing about giving people the benefit of the doubt.


there's only one thing that can be said with any certainty and that is WE DON'T KNOW
with respect, that was all i was trying to point out. :corn:

Now these are wise words and something I agree with. And now you have made that clear - thank you! ;)

[Mikkel]

tsk tsk
the only LAUDABLE thing about this debate-to-date is that participants have mostly AVOIDED schoolyard namecalling and infantile personal abuse

but there always has to be one, doesn't there :nono:

sorry, Mikkel - unable to descend to your level so i'll stop here.

merry christmas

Oh, I was merely being provocative. Notice the question mark - not an exclamation mark at the end...

[Grahameeboy]

Yes indeed let's go there.... $8000 too little you say? Well then let's start working out how much would be appropriate. I see that others have suggested perhaps $30 000 / year. Why not work out exactly how much a life is worth then..
Hmm, I guess we must take into consideration lots of things right? Perhaps a good start would be how much that person has added to society... well, then, we start with their tax contribution. (backs up yet anyone?) Of course, beneficiaries cost us as a society so of course it would follow that their life would be worth less right? Hmm, guess that means that children would be worth less too.. unless you could work out statistically their future worth to society - their chance of becoming a bonus or a burden to society. Slippery slope that one because of course some people rise above their circumstances... but I'm sure we could come up with some formula based on their socio-economic status and future earnings potential...
Bonus points could be awarded for volunteer work, negative for excessive use of public money (public hospital visits, time spent in prison etc)...
What? Some of you getting a little uncomfortable where this is headed? Gosh, I would have thought this was a natural progression. Argue about the sum of money and surely it follows that there is a 'perfect' figure. How else does one work it out?

The value of life is not a tangible amount. You can only put a value on the dependents loss ie loss of earnings both lost and future loss off.

I suspect the figures mentioned covered losses like funeral expenses and in this Country compensation for dependents as far as I know is not awarded.

This is where the Road Traffic Laws in say the UK work because a Widow who's husband was say 25 when he was killed can claim lost earning upto trial / settlement and future lost earning at say a multiple of 25 years to reflect early payment etc

[Dilligaf]

The value of life is not a tangible amount. You can only put a value on the dependents loss ie loss of earnings both lost and future loss off.

I suspect the figures mentioned covered losses like funeral expenses and in this Country compensation for dependents as far as I know is not awarded.

This is where the Road Traffic Laws in say the UK work because a Widow who's husband was say 25 when he was killed can claim lost earning upto trial / settlement and future lost earning at say a multiple of 25 years to reflect early payment etc

Grahame, with respect my message was that it is a very slippery slope when you put a monetary figure on a life because at the end of the day, who is the arbiter of that value? You either claim one amount and everyone is equal and that's it, or you pay nothing.
Claiming that the lady in question has a good job thus she should pay more is also a dangerous game to play because it begs the question that is life worth less to one who has little??

[Grahameeboy]

Grahame, with respect my message was that it is a very slippery slope when you put a monetary figure on a life because at the end of the day, who is the arbiter of that value? You either claim one amount and everyone is equal and that's it, or you pay nothing.
Claiming that the lady in question has a good job thus she should pay more is also a dangerous game to play because it begs the question that is life worth less to one who has little??

And I agreed with you..was just adding some dialogue...and I also agree with what you have just said.

[Katman]

I do not understand thae attitude of you and Mr Katman, that bikers are always in the wrong, and other road users have no responsibility or accountability at all. It seems a perverse masochism.

And as you haven't been back to answer my previous post I'll now challenge you to point out where I have ever voiced that opinion.

Put up or shut up.

[MSTRS]

And as you haven't been back to answer my previous post I'll now challenge you to point out where I have ever voiced that opinion.

Put up or shut up.

You don't need to say the actual words for the message to be obvious...if you are worried that others have picked up the wrong idea about what you mean, perhaps you should look at what/how you post.

As to the value of a life...tis impossible to be fair/realistic/accurate, but this country uses something called the Statistical Value Of Life, it comes from the Govt's own Ministry of Transport and is 3.5M$NZ

[Katman]

You don't need to say the actual words for the message to be obvious...if you are worried that others have picked up the wrong idea about what you mean, perhaps you should look at what/how you post.



You point out where I've even implied what Ixion has stated as being my opinion. I'll spell my opinion out for you - the majority of motorcycle accidents are the fault of the motorcyclist and a large number of those accidents which are not the fault of the motorcyclist could have been avoided by better situational awareness and management by the motorcyclist. I have never said (or implied) that every accident is the fault of the motorcyclist. You do know the difference between 'fault' and 'partial responsibility' don't you?

[Swoop]

I suspect that Austria doesn't have a large population of Labour voters on the dole in places like South Auckland bringing the national average down either.
"Specifically manufactured electorates"? Those with a predominance for a certain electoral sway...?

*peers at imdying, prods him with a stick*

Alian bodysnatchers have obviously been at work; our resident sociopath...
That would explain quite a lot...
Quite a lot indeed.

an Indian tourist in a rental who drove there from Ch-ch was busted for high speeds, overtaking in face of oncoming traffic and on yellow lines
So he was simply driving to the conditions that he had experienced and which were thought of as "normal" by him.
If he were driving in D'Auckland, nobody would have looked at him twice...

[dmouse]

is this what we call justice

quote from the press.

A 16-year-old north Canterbury youth has been disqualified from driving for two years after admitting carelessly using a vehicle causing the death of Christchurch City councillor Graham Condon and injury to one of her four young passengers.


The girl, who was 15 at the time of the September accident, was remanded today by Rangiora Youth Court Judge John Strettell until June 5.

This is to complete a plan of action agreed during a farmily group conference between the young offender, her family, the police and the victims - Condon's wife Kathy and family.

The terms of the plan are confidential.

this makes me sick the system sucks more than the dicks that make the rules give them a licence to kill at 15 no real learning or experiance and killers by 16

[Monsterbishi]

is this what we call justice

quote from the press.

.
.
.

This is to complete a plan of action agreed during a farmily group conference between the young offender, her family, the police and the victims - Condon's wife Kathy and family.

The terms of the plan are confidential.

Big difference here, is that the sentence/plan of action, was something agreed upon by the victims family - so something that, in their eyes was a punishment that bought restitution to them.

[dmouse]

then the cost of life is very cheap just the cost of a handshake a couple of tears and few words in a back room, no wonder we have so many idiots on the roads we breed them and give them this wonderful culture where they can go forth and maim kill and just about do what ever they want ah to be a kiwi