Mental Health

[Disco Dan]

It has come to my attention that KB has a very poor understanding of Mental Health. There are several members on here that I know of that have a mental illness - whenever they post and/or start a thread the reaction is always so negative and disrespectfull it is a wonder they have not gone and bought one of those "electric bath ducks".

It is about UNDERSTANDING.


This is your chance to ask - I work in mental health, and have been in this sector of work ever since I left school.

If you want to know - here is your chance.

Heck I am by no means an 'expert' but have a lot of experience and if I can help then great.

[Trudes]

What are we asking? Questions about mental illnesses or if we have a mental illness? I'm confused, and it's Xmas, and nobody loves me and, and....

[Kittyhawk]

You know my conditions Disco. How can friends learn to understand me better or be prepared for when the lows hit when I am out socialising?

I like to isolate myself from society, but they insist on being at my side etc.

Should I just turn my back and run like I do or let them see me in that state?

[Winston001]

Disco - I think the general membership on KB is simply representative of society at large. Mental health still has a stigma and is poorly understood even in families where it occurs.

Coupled with that, this forum is fairly robust and liberally moderated which means abusive dismissive posts are par du course. Unfortunately that is part of the fun and vulnerable people get dissed by unthinking lunks.

On the other hand look at the Depression thread and there is virtually no abuse at all. In fact it is so constructive that it is worth pointing non-bikers to just for the strength of the discussion.

I agree with your plea for understanding.

[skidMark]

I thought i was just a shit stirrer?

hmmmm

maybe is is my ADD and Asperges syndrome (high functioning form of autism) LOL

meh, born with it can't change it.

i know i'm not normal, people can give me all the shit they want.

society as a whole will never accept those who are different.

my childhood was spent on alot of cocktails of drugs and alot of time in psychiatrists offices.

and to kittyhawk, i would rather support you than leave you to go through things on your own.

ive been there myself.

and know theres nothing worse than feeling like nobody cares when you need somebody the most.

skidMark.

[merv]

Where do you fit in with this yourself when you were the one that stood me and Colapop up a few months ago with the promised lunch in Wellington and we had to start at One Red Dog without you?

[merv]

What are we asking? Questions about mental illnesses or if we have a mental illness? I'm confused, and it's Xmas, and nobody loves me and, and....

I'm confused with your comments too -are you telling me you are an average model or not, or do you think you have mental illness? ... and everyone loves ya babe so not nobody.

[Big Dave]

You're mad.

[TonyB]

There is definitely a stigma about mental illness, both here and in society at large. But I don't think its ever likely to change.

I actually think its part of our genetic makeup to be a bit fearful/cautious/dismissive or whatever of people with a mental illness or brain damage. Case in point- as part of my job I spend do a lot of work with people with various injuries. I like to think I'm reasonably broad minded, however, when I have had to visit the homes of adults with brain injuries I always feel a bit nervous. The logical part of my brain is going "yep its all sweet, this guy is harmless- actually this is bloody interesting", but the 'shrew brain' (as Jeremy clarkson calls it) is screaming "Get the fuck outa here!!!" The trainee I do my site visits with gets VERY nervous, to the point where he's saying "maaaaan I just wanna get outa here"

[Meekey_Mouse]

It has come to my attention that KB has a very poor understanding of Mental Health. There are several members on here that I know of that have a mental illness - whenever they post and/or start a thread the reaction is always so negative and disrespectfull it is a wonder they have not gone and bought one of those "electric bath ducks".

It is about UNDERSTANDING.


This is your chance to ask - I work in mental health, and have been in this sector of work ever since I left school.

If you want to know - here is your chance.

Hmm... actually I won't be blunt ;)
It seems every time this person posts a thread, the majority instantly have no respect for him. Well, I'm not surprised and he has lost all of my respect! The countless times he has put other riders and road users in danger. I'm not sure whether he is labeled as mentally ill or not... But I know something isn't clicking in his brain.

DD, I know you haven't met me, but I normally don't get annoyed with people. This KB'er has managed to push me to the point where I no longer want any thing to do with him, as I have told him today. But he has gone to my friend saying he is going to commit suicide... So, what do you think the best option is: A:Ignore him, B; Rush to his obvious negative attention getting pleas and or C; Give him helplines number?

I will not do B.


Those who know him will know what I'm talking about.

Note: Mods, if you feel this post is inappropriate and or "a leap to conclusion" then feel free to remove. And to any one else, if you feel this post isn't appropriate then I will delete it myself :P

[James Deuce]

Today's winner of the leap to conclusions award is...... Wearing a very large pair of ears.

[99TLS]

not sure if i have a mental illness, but i have a twitch does this count?

[Usarka]

it is a wonder they have not gone and bought one of those "electric bath ducks".

I think steams (?) post about the electric ducks, apart from being fucking hilarious, is probably just as if not more likely to do good as it would bad.

But we dont talk about these things in this country. no no no no. under the carpet. like rider/driver training.


ps - all the mental health workers i've met are crazier than the rest of us put together :blink::hug:

[RC1]

how do you know if you have a mental illness?? :crazy:

[Toaster]

I think we are all mental in our own way.... just some more than others.

Can someone undo my padded jacket... it is really hard to type......

[doc]

It is about UNDERSTANDING.


This is your chance to ask - I work in mental health, and have been in this sector of work ever since I left school.

If you want to know - here is your chance.

Are you offering us advice as a Mental Health worker or as a Mental Health professional ?

[RC1]

Are you offering us advice as a Mental Health worker or as a Mental Health professional ?

PATIENT :dodge:

[doc]

PATIENT :dodge:
No but tolerant

[vifferman]

I thought i was just a shit stirrer?

hmmmm

maybe is is my ADD and Asperges syndrome (high functioning form of autism) LOL
No, you're just a shit stirrer.
#2 Son has Aspergers, and he's nothing like you, and although he finds life VERY hard (he's had four suicide attempts), he never blames it on the Aspergers Syndrome.

Me, on the other hand? Yeah, it's all in my head.
But I blame the Gubmint - it's their fault. All of it.

[kevfromcoro]

While we are on the subject of mental heath.
Has anyone had an experiance where they cant swallow food...<serious>
i had an experiance a few years ago where i couldent swallow anything
yhis is not a pss take...

[Colapop]

"Hi I'm Disco Dan. Know me before you judge me."

[sunhuntin]

No, you're just a shit stirrer.
#2 Son has Aspergers, and he's nothing like you, and although he finds life VERY hard (he's had four suicide attempts), he never blames it on the Aspergers Syndrome.

Me, on the other hand? Yeah, it's all in my head.
But I blame the Gubmint - it's their fault. All of it.

agreed... i used to know a girl with aspergers. disliked her immensely at first, but grew to like her well enough. main reason i think was that, as a underdog myself, i stuck up for others labelled such, and cos everyone else gave her shit, i stuck up for her.
funniest thing ever was her screaming at me that i was gonna blow a building up by flicking an empty zippo to try and get a spark, lol. havent seen her for years... think she might have moved towns actually.

[James Deuce]

When it comes right down to it, mental health, physical disability, chromosomal disorders, neural tube defects, it's all just a joke, a weapon to use against someone who suffers from it, or a justification for bullying those who make themselves vulnerable by either speaking up or those who don't or can't do anything to hide their problems.

[scumdog]

It has come to my attention that KB has a very poor understanding of Mental Health. There are several members on here that I know of that have a mental illness - whenever they post and/or start a thread the reaction is always so negative and disrespectfull it is a wonder they have not gone and bought one of those "electric bath ducks".

It is about UNDERSTANDING.


This is your chance to ask - I work in mental health, and have been in this sector of work ever since I left school.

If you want to know - here is your chance.

If you're the guy that let SkidMark drive off in a car while he's disqualified then yes, you DO have a mental health problem.

[blue eyed savage]

normal people are boring, mental is the way to go, the lows involve scraping ur knee and the highs involve hours of laughter with good people in KB

[Kittyhawk]

When we watch a funny clip on tv, and someone gets hurt, like arsing off a bicycle or something, we laugh. We understand it's a joke now, but it wasnt at the time of the pain.

Sometimes others laugh at others pain. The reason why some may pick on another with an illness, is because they want that superior feeling, its a natural thing... we cant help but look at a person in a wheelchair in the shopping plaza, then think after. Sometimes we dont realise our natural actions. Because people look different we take more notice, assume more, and draw the wrong conclusions.

Is it a good or bad thing to be honest if someone has an illness?

I came out with my black dog after a lifetime of hiding from it. And I have had a couple of people turn their backs, unable to be successful at interviews, people naturally assume the worst when I say "I have depression but have been given the ok to work" Their first reaction to that which you can see on their faces "are they psyco" because they dont know enough about it.
If I dont say anything people get upset thinking I have lied to them. So either way there are going to be negative results.

Mental health isn't talked about because people are scared of the unknown. If the information isnt going to benifit them they turn a blind eye. If someone you care about has a condition naturally you'd support them, find out a little more info about the condition and work through it.

Would you walk into a dark room you have never been into, unable to see or find your way out?

Can you look at someone and wonder???

The unknown to anyone is scary. Having particular conditions makes life a little more challenging.

I have depression, but to make up for that I have a strong talent in music. Just have to learn to balance the lifestyle.

:chase:outa here.

[Colapop]

Yep mental health is an issue. If you listen every bleeding heart liberalist out there then nearly all of us have mental health 'issues'. Doesn't help those that genuinely do and need help. All that happens is many more people than need to be put their kids on Ritalin or go on "stress leave" and minimalise the the people that have genuine problems.

[HTFU]

It has come to my attention that KB has a very poor understanding of Mental Health. There are several members on here that I know of that have a mental illness - whenever they post and/or start a thread the reaction is always so negative and disrespectfull it is a wonder they have not gone and bought one of those "electric bath ducks".

It is about UNDERSTANDING.


This is your chance to ask - I work in mental health, and have been in this sector of work ever since I left school.

If you want to know - here is your chance.

IMHO - even those who think they know and understand mental health - don't. But thanks for the offer of making it all so clear.

Thats why so many (probably most) cannot be helped by what's left of the mental health system.

Anything to do with the human brain is so individual and complicated that I think it is a joke that we think we can even classify types of mental illness and then think we have the science and medicine to fix each type.

Every person has an individual problem based on their life experience as well the way they were genetically hardwired. Millions of cells = millions of different ways to be fucked up and insane in the membrane. Classification is bullshit and a copout for the individual and also the system our taxes pays for to help out people with problems with their mental health. Convenient but not productive.

So, HTFU you mental fucks. We have all had shit happen to us, deal with it. Shovel it, flush it and for fucks sake, stop moping around in your shit. Except those of course who are so mentally fucked they don't even know they are mentally fucked up, they have an excuse - IMHO

How's that for KB understanding. :shutup:

[blue eyed savage]

what he said!!

[HTFU]

Fuck you. Let me know if you ever fall off so I can come and have a good fucking laugh.

If thats part of your therapy then no problems. Laughter is the the second best medicine after all. :laugh:

Second of course to HTFU :pinch:

[Kittyhawk]

If thats part of your therapy then no problems. Laughter is the the second best medicine after all. :laugh:

Second of course to HTFU :pinch:

Been there done that, question is am I harder than you LOL!

And yes laughter, is the best :laugh:

[blue eyed savage]

chopper reed (i think its reed) has got the best advie for anyone.
its true i was in the army for 5 years and it never let me down, that and a bottle of jim or tui.mmmm think i might have me a drink

[Usarka]

I was speaking to someone with MS the other day, told the wimp, HTFU you soft sack of shit, we all get knocked around in life, just last month i sprained my ankle and couldnt walk for weeks.

Then i saw some old granny walking down the road so i kicked her zimmer frame out from under her. Harden up you wrinkly old tart, if i can walk to the shops then theres no need for you to get all robocopped up. you old fuckers are just lazy, htfu.

[Big Dave]

Mr Sarka:

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/4062/324817.html?1198182147

[Oakie]

I work at this place http://www.hohepa.com/canterbury.html in an HR/Payroll role as opposed to a 'hands on' role although I still have heaps to do with our residents (I've even given a few rides on my bike). Anyhoo, the most telling sentence I've ever heard spoken there is "Mentally disabled people's greatest disability is how the wider community treats them".

To be fair, the guys at my work all have intellectual disability whereas this thread is more about mental illness (there is a difference) but possibly those with 'mental illness' are discriminated against even more than those with intellectual disability?

[YellowDog]

Dan mate, there is a good advert on TV at present. It will take a couple of decades to instill understanding and compassion into society. But how far should it go?

If someone has mental illness, this may be the result of other problems in their lives or upbringing. We are all victims of circumstance. Some need more help than others. Hopefully a situation will evolve whereby such illnesses can be identified at an early age and help provided. I am very conscious that NZ has a ridiculouly high suicide rate. It is also a worry that if too much sympathy and compassion is provided, it may provide a cop-out and they will not need to utilise the best remedy, which is personal motivation to improve by selfhelp.

It is a tricky subject and one which needs to be taken seriously. I worked with an inner city project team in the UK. I saw excellent results with kids and young adults with little or no self worth. I also saw a lot of abuse of the service and thefts of equipment.

It is a tough balance to get right.

[James Deuce]

If someone has mental illness, this may be the result of other problems in their lives or upbringing. .

No, no, no!

The saddest misconception about Mental Illness is that the person involved has a choice or it can be put down to past events.

The brain is a complex series of electro-chemical mechanisms. An imbalance in hormones, or brain chemistry creates mental illness.

Very few people develop a reactive depression in response to events in their life.

You can talk through a neurosis. You can't talk someone out of a psychosis.

People with disrupted brain function or a chemical imbalance are incapable of adjusting their behaviour. The best way to combat their down side is help build self esteem. It takes the edge off.

[MSTRS]

Most of us wouldn't know mental illness or recognise it, esp. on here, even if it bit us on the bum.
Would any of us know the difference between depression and 'wallowing in self-pity' ? I doubt it.
So, come across as 'different' on here, expect a multitude of responses, most of which will take some form of HTFU.
The reader is not responsible for the posters' words and can't be expected to be able to 'see beyond the words' to the (supposed) underlying problem.
I'm not trying to belittle anyone who is genuinely affected by mental illness, just trying to point out that most of us won't know what we are seeing....

[YellowDog]

No, no, no!

The saddest misconception about Mental Illness is that the person involved has a choice or it can be put down to past events.

The brain is a complex series of electro-chemical mechanisms. An imbalance in hormones, or brain chemistry creates mental illness.

Very few people develop a reactive depression in response to events in their life.

You can talk through a neurosis. You can't talk someone out of a psychosis.

People with disrupted brain function or a chemical imbalance are incapable of adjustin gtheir behaviour. The best way to combat their down side is help build self esteem. It takes the edge off.
I though I was making a similar point to you about helping build confidence and self esteem?

Problems 'may' also be a direct result of personal trauma and upbringing.

The point I read from your post is that you agree that Prozak and other (brain chemistry altering drugs) branded anti-depressants are not a good solution?

[Shaun]

It has come to my attention that KB has a very poor understanding of Mental Health. There are several members on here that I know of that have a mental illness - whenever they post and/or start a thread the reaction is always so negative and disrespectfull it is a wonder they have not gone and bought one of those "electric bath ducks".

It is about UNDERSTANDING.


This is your chance to ask - I work in mental health, and have been in this sector of work ever since I left school.

If you want to know - here is your chance.


Good on ya man:sunny: So many people including myself do not understand this at all, I have learned a lot this year, due to my head injury from my crash! Which is getting really good now!!!!

WOW, the brain is more than I ever thought it to be

[YellowDog]

Perhaps this is a deeper subject than we should be exploring on Kiwibiker.

[Sketchy_Racer]

I don't understand anything about mental illness, how ever I do believe it to be a problem, and there are people out there that need 'real' help (as in more than just a prescription for some pills etc)

How ever, it also seems that people are starting to use mental illness as an excuse.

For example, so many parents I know all believe that thier kids need to be on ritalin (sp) because they're out of control. Thing is that 99% of the kids are perfectly normal kids, the problem coming from the parents that don't take care of thier kids and wont disapline in an effective manner. To me that quite often seems a coput on the parents part.

Then there are people that love the attention gained from using mental illness as an excuse for the lousy and stupid decisions they make.

As far as im concerned for me personally, Life is what you make of it. Doesn't matter where you've been in the past, you're the one that decides where your going to go in the future.

[Edbear]

I don't understand anything about mental illness, how ever I do believe it to be a problem, and there are people out there that need 'real' help (as in more than just a prescription for some pills etc)

How ever, it also seems that people are starting to use mental illness as an excuse.

For example, so many parents I know all believe that thier kids need to be on ritalin (sp) because they're out of control. Thing is that 99% of the kids are perfectly normal kids, the problem coming from the parents that don't take care of thier kids and wont disapline in an effective manner. To me that quite often seems a coput on the parents part.

Then there are people that love the attention gained from using mental illness as an excuse for the lousy and stupid decisions they make.

As far as im concerned for me personally, Life is what you make of it. Doesn't matter where you've been in the past, you're the one that decides where your going to go in the future.


Good post. I do have experience with mental illness and it is a real disability when genuine. Your point about parents is far too true, and my wife's work in an early childhood centre graphically demonstrates that many parents have absolutley no idea about how to raise their kids! The Police, too, would readily testify to the incredible incompetence of many parents who either, or both, don't know how or don't care about their kids.

One of the most frustrating things for my wife and others in her type of work is that they are not allowed, by law, to discipline the children - they have to "distract them"...! Of course the kids know this...:argh:

Yep! Don't spend time and effort on your kids, just give them money and drugs and it'll all be fine as the Gummint will take responsibility for them..:argue:

[Winston001]

Cripes, this thread is all over the place but some good thoughts posted. Just a few points:

Every one of us is shaped by our past experiences. To say that we have a choice about how we react is naive. To do so requires insight into our subconcious and most of us can't do that without help.

Some mental illness is caused by brain function imbalances. This can arise from injury, tumors, or neuroreceptor production etc.

The brain is incredibly complex and although we know a lot through research, there is a vast amount still to explore. Doctors do their best and pretty well at that, but the reality is not everyone can be cured or even stabilised.

Pills do work for many people. Not always, not all of the time, never in some cases, but don't dismiss medication because it is imperfect. It saves peoples lives.

[blue eyed savage]

HTFU
yes this is what most of u need
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXri8ZCKjc

[James Deuce]

Some mental illness is caused by brain function imbalances. This can arise from injury, tumors, or neuroreceptor production etc.


You all still seem think that being a little bit sad is a mental illness. It's not. All mental illness is caused by brain chemistry changes that most likely come about through a change in physical state, that can be externally influence, internally generated or both in differing measure.

Reactive depression can turn into full blown depression, permanently changing the brain's biochemistry. In a few cases. How "real" depression comes about is poorly understood.

There seems to be a fundamental inability to even begin to be able to process mental illness the same way people will accept an amputee. Without visual signals, there's nothing wrong, so you should HTFU. I haven't seen a post yet that begins to understand or even show a polite level of acceptance that people can be unwell and you can't see it OR do anything about it. A nice cup of tea doesn't cut it.

The HTFU comments don't help, it just shows that you are an unfeeling dolt, with a psyche about as deep as a puddle. If you don't understand something aren't you supposed to ask and learn about it? Or would you rather keep up the pretense of being far too tough to let stuff like that bother you, because being mental is the mental person's own fault and they should just fix it and stop making me feel uncomfortable? Like those rape victims and the women in the refuges. Serves them right.

It's a shame my infracted comment got deep sixed, because I truly meant it.

[marty]

All over the place like a MAD woman's shit?

In a past life I dealt with mentally disordered people every day. Most MDO's are never seen by the police.., They make a choice to live their lives NORMALLY, like the rest of the population.

Disco is drawing a very long bow to insiuate that Squidmark's behaviour is a result of his 'mental disorder'. That is the biggest cop out and attempt to not take responsibility that I have heard in a long time!

It's quite simple. Mark decides he's going to do something, and he does it. Fuck the consequences. He knew he was disqualified, knew the consequences, but still chose to drive. That has NOTHING to do with his mental health status.

AFAIC mark is just a socially inept try-hard that has ignored every piece of good advice that has ever come his way, and gone on to be self destructive every time.

[Winston001]

You all still seem think that being a little bit sad is a mental illness. It's not........

Jim2 - I can't remember if you posted in the Depression thread http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=43250&highlight=depression but if you look there you'll see that the posters are insightful and aware.

I guess I'm reading this thread differently because it seems to me quite a few know very well that metal illness requires compassion.

[HTFU]

Hey Jim2 isn't DiscoDan meant to be giving us all the advice about mental illness.

First you say

"The saddest misconception about Mental Illness is that the person involved has a choice or it can be put down to past events.

The brain is a complex series of electro-chemical mechanisms. An imbalance in hormones, or brain chemistry creates mental illness.

Very few people develop a reactive depression in response to events in their life "

But then you say

"All mental illness is caused by brain chemistry changes that most likely come about through a change in physical state, that can be externally influence, internally generated or both in differing measure

Reactive depression can turn into full blown depression, permanently changing the brain's biochemistry. In a few cases. How "real" depression comes about is poorly understood"

So what is it ? :blink:.

I go back to my first post, combination of environment/ and genetic hardwiring creates unique and very individual mental issues. If it was more simple than that we would have everyone happy as a sandboy, and we soooo obviously don't :bleh:.

[Winston001]

There is definitely a stigma about mental illness, both here and in society at large. But I don't think its ever likely to change.

I actually think its part of our genetic makeup to be a bit fearful/cautious/dismissive or whatever of people with a mental illness or brain damage. Case in point- as part of my job I spend do a lot of work with people with various injuries. I like to think I'm reasonably broad minded, however, when I have had to visit the homes of adults with brain injuries I always feel a bit nervous. The logical part of my brain is going "yep its all sweet, this guy is harmless- actually this is bloody interesting", but the 'shrew brain' (as Jeremy clarkson calls it) is screaming "Get the fuck outa here!!!" The trainee I do my site visits with gets VERY nervous, to the point where he's saying "maaaaan I just wanna get outa here"

This is the best post IMHO. I think TonyB puts his finger on why we struggle as a society to accept mental illness.

A person whose brain doesn't work quite like the rest of us dwells in a foreign land. We cannot anticipate their thoughts and reactions, which makes us uneasy.

This is a difficult reaction to get past. We can do it with people we know but in the wider community.......?

[HTFU]

Jim2 - I can't remember if you posted in the Depression thread http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=43250&highlight=depression but if you look there you'll see that the posters are insightful and aware.

I guess I'm reading this thread differently because it seems to me quite a few know very well that metal illness requires compassion.

I agree with that, and I think what people on a public forum have to remember is most of the shit that gets spun on here more often than not just some quickly thought and typed out crap, a bit of jib and just passing some time. As for those seeking compassion on a public internet forum ;). Here's what I prescribe since Disco Dan has done a runner on us.

Get a big dose of life and some real live human support, this of course goes with a good dose of laughter and HTFU.

Ride a pushbike at 100km/hr down a hill, better still do it naked. Go surfing, nothing better than middle of summer 9pm sitting in the surf. Go tramping or caving with friends, Crystal Cave in Gardners Gut unbelievable beauty. Fall in love, raise some kids and enjoy doing it, take walks, read books about fun stuff, intrigue, fantasy and mystery . Do stuff that raises the heart rate, sex, exercise, the occasional street brawl.

If this doesn't work for you and you still mental, then do this. Have an attempt at the world record for longest freefall survived without a parachute. If you get that record, then go for most most freefalls survived in a day without a parachute. You will either die, which if you are mental is probably not a bad thing or become wickedy famous and rich from all the endorsements as world record holder and more than likely forget you are mental.

All the sex and money in the world, now thats what makes people happy, isn't it ?

[inlinefour]

What a crock! If the preformance here is anything to go by, there is not much chance of understanding is there? Some good comments here and plenty of not so. I've worked as a nurse in the local mental health system and I have read a fair bit. I do know that its not an exact science and there is plenty that is not understood. As for the comments regarding HTFU, thats just indicative of someone who knows feck all, but wants to share their opinion.

[marty]

I don't agree with HTFU, more with accepting who you are, and living your life within and at the edge of those boundaries. There is a difference between pushing those boundaries though, and just doing things without thought or consequence.

[marty]

Perhaps this is a deeper subject than we should be exploring on Kiwibiker.


Oh come on - we discuss all sorts of serious stuff here. Like lane splitting. And Beer. And titties... :)

[Ocean1]

First you say

"The saddest misconception about Mental Illness is that the person involved has a choice or it can be put down to past events.

The brain is a complex series of electro-chemical mechanisms. An imbalance in hormones, or brain chemistry creates mental illness.

Very few people develop a reactive depression in response to events in their life "

But then you say

"All mental illness is caused by brain chemistry changes that most likely come about through a change in physical state, that can be externally influence, internally generated or both in differing measure

Reactive depression can turn into full blown depression, permanently changing the brain's biochemistry. In a few cases. How "real" depression comes about is poorly understood"

So what is it ? :blink:.

The statements are not inconsistent.

And don't preclude:


combination of environment/ and genetic hardwiring creates unique and very individual mental issues.

If mental illness is defined as a malfunction of the mind then it's not hard to see that such a complex bit of kit might have a huge number of potential performance shortfalls. Malfunctions in cognitive and processing routines might be caused by internal failure, environmental stress or simple physical damage. It's not at all impossible that there be several causes, (in fact it's not uncommon at all), and multiple malfunctions in a single individual.

If I understand Jim's major objection as a comment on the phenomena of attention seaking, weak, lazy or self-serving but otherwise mentally functional people using the condition as a crutch, or an excuse, then I agree with him. Such people damage social and professional perceptions of genuinely mentally damaged people.

The problem is, (or one of them) that until you define "normal" for any given individual you can't define "damaged". And we are so diverse with regards to our various perceptual, intelectual and emotive capacities that it's literally impossible in some cases to make that distinction.

Sometimes we can however, there are a large number of reasonably accurately defined malfunctions which produce known and quantifiable symptoms. From such symptoms a reasonably relaible diagnosis can usually be made, and treatment, (sometimes even effective treatment) can be undertaken.

As for healthy people's ability to interact with mentally damaged people? Well, most people don't get much practice, I note that people with mentally ill relatives, neighbours or evern regular contacts seem usually to behave in a supportive way. Also, I think there's an element of evolutionary hard wiring in all of us that rejects "different" people. Even those with only slightly different behaviour, taught in a different culture arouses this reaction. Some either don't bother to analyse this reaction in themselves or can't supress the resulting reaction.

One thing I know: an intimate experience involving genuine loss of function usually changes people's perceptions of the issue, and how they feel about those less well off than themselves.

[HTFU]

The statements are not inconsistent.

And don't preclude:

From what I read.....

First he states that its a misconception that past events can change our mental state but then says "All mental illness is caused by brain chemistry changes that most likely come about through a change in physical state, that can be externally influence, internally generated or both in differing measure"

Externally influenced means to me - our past events and interactions with others and our environment. That would be like saying someones 3 year long mental state of depression was not at all influenced by the tragic death of their 5 year old child.

Think you need to go back over the posts to see what each person has posted to get an idea what they are really saying.


One thing I know: an intimate experience involving genuine loss of function usually changes people's perceptions of the issue, and how they feel about those less well off than themselves.

I agree with your post once you make your own opinion, I have stated similar things in mine. However, this last bit about intimate experience, again I will say " Public internet forum". Wouldn't be anyone on here that hasn't had an intimate experience or knows someone that has. Myself included. Not going to splash my own shit all on here but the reason I state what I do is more a dig at those that do need to get a life and HTFU.

I have got enough people in my life that I put a lot of effort into their wellbeing who really do need it. Depression, alcholhism just the tip of the real world iceberg most KBers deal with everyday. Compassion ? nah just a piss take on here sorry, will never be anything but. However, you come knocking at my door in a sorry state of repair, I got compassion in truck loads.

[James Deuce]

From what I read.....

First he states that its a misconception that past events can change our mental state but then says "All mental illness is caused by brain chemistry changes that most likely come about through a change in physical state, that can be externally influence, internally generated or both in differing measure"

Externally influenced means to me - our past events and interactions with others and our environment. That would be like saying someones 3 year long mental state of depression was not at all influenced by the tragic death of their 5 year old child.

Think you need to go back over the posts to see what each person has posted to get an idea what they are really saying.



I agree with your post once you make your own opinion, I have stated similar things in mine. However, this last bit about intimate experience, again I will say " Public internet forum". Wouldn't be anyone on here that hasn't had an intimate experience or knows someone that has. Myself included. Not going to splash my own shit all on here but the reason I state what I do is more a dig at those that do need to get a life and HTFU.

I have got enough people in my life that I put a lot of effort into their wellbeing who really do need it. Depression, alcholhism just the tip of the real world iceberg most KBers deal with everyday. Compassion ? nah just a piss take on here sorry, will never be anything but. However, you come knocking at my door in a sorry state of repair, I got compassion in truck loads.

You have very little understanding of the issues and you make it very obvious.

You also lack compassion or you wouldn't be taking the piss, would you?

I don't know why you've chosen my posts to over-analyse, but I'll give it a go. Reactive depression is generated by a life changing event. A very small percentage of people end up permanently damaged by things like relationship break ups, loss of a limb or paralysis, and the death of close family members or friends.

An external issue that generates depression or other forms of mental illness such as psychosis, could be a toxin, a virus, a brain injury such as a concussion, and in some cases electrocution.

The vast majority of depression sufferers come pre-equipped with a brain that predisposes them to depressive episodes. It may take something like 2 days without sleep to trigger an episode, or a substantial change to routine or job expectations, or an unexpected confrontation.

It is a misconception that all mental illness can be blamed on events that happen to people.

Do you feel like a big man now that you've actively taken the piss out of someone with a mental illness? Because in my experience most people do feel justified in accusing people like me of being useless malingering shitheads who deserve everything they get. My issues are due to a bike accident caused by a drunk driver, and apart from 6 months off work getting over a broken back and neck I've never let it stop me do anything. Prior to the accident I used to be a bit high strung. Now I have a condition called General Anxiety Disorder, due to having my brain smushed and developing post concussion syndrome which caused 3 day migraines and minor seizure activity. The GAD came about because of damage to my brain in that accident, and I am one of a very small percentage of people who can say, "That incident pushed me over the edge). Most people live with a dysfunctional brain until something happens that alerts other people to the problem

This now rates as my second biggest mistake in the past 3 weeks. I've outed myself as mental on a bike forum. I did the same thing at work in an attempt to lower my stress levels and just got told to go find another job because they aren't interested in carrying me.

[doc]

What happened to Disco Dan is he slightly unwell ?

[Usarka]

Awesome post J2.

[sunhuntin]

How ever, it also seems that people are starting to use mental illness as an excuse.

For example, so many parents I know all believe that thier kids need to be on ritalin (sp) because they're out of control. Thing is that 99% of the kids are perfectly normal kids, the problem coming from the parents that don't take care of thier kids and wont disapline in an effective manner. To me that quite often seems a coput on the parents part.

Then there are people that love the attention gained from using mental illness as an excuse for the lousy and stupid decisions they make.

yep... these days it seems that every second kid has add/adhd/whatever its called now. was 12 before i learned about that, and i honestly think the kid was just plain bad.

[HTFU]

I don't know why you've chosen my posts to over-analyse

This now rates as my second biggest mistake in the past 3 weeks. I've outed myself as mental on a bike forum. I did the same thing at work in an attempt to lower my stress levels and just got told to go find another job because they aren't interested in carrying me.


Fuck you. Let me know if you ever fall off so I can come and have a good fucking laugh.

Could it be I made a general IMHO post about my personal take on mental illness and this was your reply.

Just because a thread is about mental illness doesn't mean its all about you, even if you happen to have one. Sure you have an understanding of it, but in my opinion you know everything about you and you problems not mental illness.

My point is the biggest problem with mental illness is we classify it, a throw back to early medicine and science. Since we getting all personal, reason I find it hard to take mental illness know it alls seriously and especially on here - I spent my early years visiting my mother in Kingseat hospital in Karaka as the doctors fucked her up on medicine. Because they said she had this disorder etc etc. Poor bitch was in an abusive relationship that meant she had no social contact and never worked outside the house. Would make anyone go mental. Surprise surprise that when she got out on her own, no medicine required.

Old man spent a few years in Tokanui and my brother just came back from Drug and Alcohol rehab, but wait there's more..... None have been helped by people trying to say what mental disorder they have got.

I am just very skeptical of all the so called experts, including those with problems that seem to be able to in very medical terms describe their condition. You get told or tell yourself something enough times you will believe it.

Again IMHO - mental illness is individual, there is no two illnesses alike, similar maybe and easy for someone to classify and label but not the same.
Again - millions of individual cells and millions of individual experiences = millions of individual illnesses.

Getting all wound up so easily on here can't be very productive, surely. :no:

[Mikkel]

NO! You're all wrong... Mental illness is an illusion, it's a term coined by THEM!!! You must not fail to understand that... fuck, gotta run - the inquisition is here to pump homosexuality poison gas into my house... :chase:

p/t

On a more serious note. I've known several people with various issues and while it is extremely hard to relate to what they are going through, you don't actually have to understand it. Lending an ear and treating them like the equal human beings they are, is the best thing you can do. But the fear of the unknown can certainly be a challenge in doing that.

On the other hand, there are people out there with "depressions" who don't have the first clue about what a real clinical depression is like and these people seriously need to HTFU and get going indeed. "Life sucks, get a fucking helmet!".... and buy a motorcycle! :yes:
(I'll take no resposibility for that prescription, but it seems to have worked for myself...)

[HTFU]

NO! You're all wrong... Mental illness is an illusion, it's a term coined by THEM!!! You must not fail to understand that... fuck, gotta run - the inquisition is here to pump homosexuality poison gas into my house... :chase:

p/t

On a more serious note. I've known several people with various issues and while it is extremely hard to relate to what they are going through, you don't actually have to understand it. Lending an ear and treating them like the equal human beings they are, is the best thing you can do. But the fear of the unknown can certainly be a challenge in doing that.

On the other hand, there are people out there with "depressions" who don't have the first clue about what a real clinical depression is like and these people seriously need to HTFU and get going indeed. "Life sucks, get a fucking helmet!".... and buy a motorcycle! :yes:
(I'll take no resposibility for that prescription, but it seems to have worked for myself...)

Yeah - thats what I meant. :clap:

[Ocean1]

This now rates as my second biggest mistake in the past 3 weeks.

Second biggest?

In 3 weeks?

You, sir, are a bloody amateur.

A promising one to be sure, though, so I'm prepared to make myself available occasionally for coaching, should you wish.


I did the same thing at work in an attempt to lower my stress levels and just got told to go find another job because they aren't interested in carrying me.

They're idiots, ethically clueless ones, with apparently no knowledge of emploment law. What will you do about it dude? Seems unlikely it's going to be a good place to be in the long term...

Think I'd be tempted to just say fuckem, toss it to a lawyer and go find a better job.

[skidMark]

It's really funny actually you've all gone off your nut in this thread blah blah it's just thgis it's just that...blah blah blah....

you don't have any problems as an outsider you have no understanding...

you think you do

oh just HTFU.....yeah sure

it's not as simple as that.

without having the problems you cannot understand them.

you guys obviously pay no attention to know me before you judge me ad's

you are trying to push aside things saying oh it's just mind set or whatever.

you don't understand, don't try to.

the reason i do so much stupid shit is because of my conditions...i have chemical imbalance...it makes my brain think that way.

do you get it?

it's howi think...i don't want to think the way i do, buti cannot change it, i am hard wired this way.

it is unchangable.

you cannot understand it.

i don't know how to explain it and i apoligize for that.

[James Deuce]

They're idiots, ethically clueless ones, with apparently no knowledge of emploment law. What will you do about it dude? Seems unlikely it's going to be a good place to be in the long term...

Think I'd be tempted to just say fuckem, toss it to a lawyer and go find a better job.
Yes they are, but they are renowned for it and have in fact been taken to the cleaners repeatedly.

However this is not a good time of year to be looking for work, and now that the "word" is out I will probably find it an uphill battle to be employed anywhere else in my field of expertise in Wellington. It's a small place.

Then there's the bills. Sometimes you have to just have to take it and keep going because it isn't all about me.

[Ocean1]

Yes they are, but they are renowned for it and have in fact been taken to the cleaners repeatedly.

I find I agree with almost none of the current employment legislation, but behaviour like that deserves special attention. Not because they believe they're simply avoiding an unfair cost, but because they've got no fucking idea how to manage a resource.


However this is not a good time of year to be looking for work, and now that the "word" is out I will probably find it an uphill battle to be employed anywhere else in my field of expertise in Wellington. It's a small place.

Then there's the bills. Sometimes you have to just have to take it and keep going because it isn't all about me.

Not sure how narrow your field is, or how competitive the market. I'd expect anyone worth working for would employ someone who's good at what they do, if the price is right, even if part of the price is unconventional.

So what... just keep the ear to the ground until an alternative comes up?

[jazbug5]

I

the reason i do so much stupid shit is because of my conditions...i have chemical imbalance...it makes my brain think that way.

do you get it?

it's howi think...i don't want to think the way i do, buti cannot change it, i am hard wired this way.

it is unchangable.

you cannot understand it.

i don't know how to explain it and i apoligize for that.

Okay- I'll bite. At what age were you diagnosed, and what with- exactly?

Do the professionals who did so really believe that you have no option other than to simply follow your first impulse, regardless of how stupid and self defeating it is?

Thing is, a lot of this stuff about labelling kids with 'disorders' and then expecting nothing of them after that rings bells for me; just spent a year working in a school. It was funny how many of the kids who had 'ADD' or similar also seemed to have useless parents. The trouble was, many of these kids then seemed to take it on board that good behaviour was neither expected nor required for them, and they'd never get anywhere in life anyway, so what the hell?

Asperger's, well. That's such a wide spectrum. I have two friends bringing up kids with severe forms of this, and I know how hard it is for them. At the other end, I know people with it who are incredibly successful.

One of my closest friends has ADD, and, I suspect, some of the traits of Asperger's. He is a very high level cancer research scientist and geneticist.
He attributes much of his success to his unique way of looking at problems and to aspects of his ADD.

So how many of your limitations are self imposed? Genuine question.

[skidMark]

Okay- I'll bite. At what age were you diagnosed, and what with- exactly?

Do the professionals who did so really believe that you have no option other than to simply follow your first impulse, regardless of how stupid and self defeating it is?

Thing is, a lot of this stuff about labelling kids with 'disorders' and then expecting nothing of them after that rings bells for me; just spent a year working in a school. It was funny how many of the kids who had 'ADD' or similar also seemed to have useless parents. The trouble was, many of these kids then seemed to take it on board that good behaviour was neither expected nor required for them, and they'd never get anywhere in life anyway, so what the hell?

Asperger's, well. That's such a wide spectrum. I have two friends bringing up kids with severe forms of this, and I know how hard it is for them. At the other end, I know people with it who are incredibly successful.

One of my closest friends has ADD, and, I suspect, some of the traits of Asperger's. He is a very high level cancer research scientist and geneticist.
He attributes much of his success to his unique way of looking at problems and to aspects of his ADD.

So how many of your limitations are self imposed? Genuine question.


none are self imposed i want to get somwhere in life, i just lack the ability to keep to it, i cannot hold down a job because i either piss people off or just loose interest.

it pisses me offi wish i could sort it out buti just can't

i do have high functioning asperges syndrome, family history of it, was diagnosed at about 11 with ADD then at i think about 12 or 13 got diagnosid with asperges also, it's well proven these are what i have no doubt there.

problem being i get obsessed with things because of the asperges , it's been bikes for a damn long time.

i hate having to talk about this, but was hoping it would mean people would understand me a bit better, i know it's not an excuse, but i cannot change what i have unfortunately.

[Disco Dan]

"Mentally disabled people's greatest disability is how the wider community treats them".


Thats right. :2thumbsup



What a crock! If the preformance here is anything to go by, there is not much chance of understanding is there? Some good comments here and plenty of not so. I've worked as a nurse in the local mental health system and I have read a fair bit. I do know that its not an exact science and there is plenty that is not understood. As for the comments regarding HTFU, thats just indicative of someone who knows feck all, but wants to share their opinion.

So very common - even within the MHS itself, there are people working that know flob all about what they are preaching.


You know my conditions Disco. How can friends learn to understand me better or be prepared for when the lows hit when I am out socialising?

I like to isolate myself from society, but they insist on being at my side etc.

Should I just turn my back and run like I do or let them see me in that state?

We all have times when we just want to be by ourselves - it starts to become "isolation" when you start to plan to be by yourself instead of meeting friends etc.


Disco - I think the general membership on KB is simply representative of society at large. Mental health still has a stigma and is poorly understood even in families where it occurs.

Coupled with that, this forum is fairly robust and liberally moderated which means abusive dismissive posts are par du course. Unfortunately that is part of the fun and vulnerable people get dissed by unthinking lunks.

On the other hand look at the Depression thread and there is virtually no abuse at all. In fact it is so constructive that it is worth pointing non-bikers to just for the strength of the discussion.

I agree with your plea for understanding.


DD, I know you haven't met me, but I normally don't get annoyed with people. This KB'er has managed to push me to the point where I no longer want any thing to do with him, as I have told him today. But he has gone to my friend saying he is going to commit suicide... So, what do you think the best option is: A:Ignore him, B; Rush to his obvious negative attention getting pleas and or C; Give him helplines number?

I will not do B.


Those who know him will know what I'm talking about.

Note: Mods, if you feel this post is inappropriate and or "a leap to conclusion" then feel free to remove. And to any one else, if you feel this post isn't appropriate then I will delete it myself :P

It would be very unwise for anyone to give advice on an online forum about this! But generally speaking - if someone goes around telling people they are going to commit suicide they are (generally) after attention - those that are silent and will just 'do it'. But there are exceptions!! There are always exceptions!



ps - all the mental health workers i've met are crazier than the rest of us put together :blink::hug:

That is true - a lot of my collegues have had/have a mental illness of some description during their life.

Me? You dont want to know about me!! Im pretty odd at the best of times. I prefer "eccentric".

I would be very interested to read some research into MH workers being a bit "mad"...

[Her_C4]

I did the same thing at work in an attempt to lower my stress levels and just got told to go find another job because they aren't interested in carrying me.

Their loss - they don't deserve you or your honesty. :Punk: No Jim2, not all Wellington businesses/IT shops are backward thinking, ice age mammoths that sre closed minded enough not to see that the benefits of employing you (and your expertise!) far and above outweigh any perceived negatives. :msn-wink:



However this is not a good time of year to be looking for work, and now that the "word" is out I will probably find it an uphill battle to be employed anywhere else in my field of expertise in Wellington. It's a small place.
.

Yes it certainly is a small place but then often its not always just a matter of 'what' you know .... if you combine that with 'who' you know you may suddenly find yourself with an advantage. :cool:

Whilst I am no longer in a position to personally offer the opportunity to apply for a role, I can however put you in touch with a couple of consultants that may be able to show you that the light at the end of tunnel is in fact NOT an oncoming train??

Let me know - happy to help if I can :mobile: :niceone:

[Disco Dan]

I posted this in another thread somewhere, but it is quite interesting....

It is commonly known that if you have ever heard someone call your name (when they did not or no-one there), or your sitting watching tv and see something move out of the corner of your eye that is not there etc - that you are more likely to develop a mental illness - ie hear voices, hallucinations etc (sp)

Just last night I was watching television and thought I saw a spider (or something similar) on my bedside table next to me - when I looked, all I saw was a black head of a nail in the wooden top.... it does not make me mad - just more likely to develop a diaganosable illness in the future.

[Edbear]

none are self imposed i want to get somwhere in life, i just lack the ability to keep to it, i cannot hold down a job because i either piss people off or just loose interest.

it pisses me offi wish i could sort it out buti just can't

i do have high functioning asperges syndrome, family history of it, was diagnosed at about 11 with ADD then at i think about 12 or 13 got diagnosid with asperges also, it's well proven these are what i have no doubt there.

problem being i get obsessed with things because of the asperges , it's been bikes for a damn long time.

i hate having to talk about this, but was hoping it would mean people would understand me a bit better, i know it's not an excuse, but i cannot change what i have unfortunately.


Maybe you cannot "change what I have", but you can treat it. You have a defeatist attitude which puts you in the 'negative' group. To every solution you see a problem, whereas the 'positive' group is vice-versa.

Knowlede is power, because knowledge brings choices. Ignorance is weakness because you have no choices, you don't know what to do about it. I have yet to see a mental illness or condition that cannot be treated and improved if the person is willing to learn and apply. Many noted figures throughout history suffered from mental illness or handicaps and it was their attitude and perseverance that gained them great achievements.

Have you noticed that for every sufferer of ADHD the behaviour is negative and self-destructive? My son suffers from ADHD and back in the '70's it wasn't recognised. He was 6 in '81 before the medical profession finally worked out what was going on with these kids and he was tested and diagnosed. Yet once he began treatment, he changed, his attitude was to cooperate with his diet and medication as he understood what was happening to him and didn't like it.

He has never, as far as I can remember, been on the Dole and applied himself to work and training despite missing out much of the basic schooling. His attitude impressed a forman where he worked as a metal-polisher who then gave him a chance with personal interest and one-on-one training. Mike worked hard and really applied himself. He gained his welding ticket and has been a welder for many years now.

He still has learning difficulties, but is positive and responsible, ("cept his flat is still a bombsite!!!), and has been supporting himself since he was 18, now 32.

You don't have to accept your disability, Mark, you can do something about it and you can be whomever and whatever you want to be. Big question is, "Are you prepared to put in the self-discipline and effort required?"



.... it does not make me mad - just more likely to develop a diaganosable illness in the future.


No, it doesn't. It simply demonstrates that the peripheral vision plays tricks at times...

[yungatart]

the reason i do so much stupid shit is because of my conditions...i have chemical imbalance...it makes my brain think that way.



Have you tried Magnesium?
It can be very successful in treating disorders along the Asperger's Spectrum.
It can also have the opposite affect, but would surely be worth a try.

[Sketchy_Racer]

the reason i do so much stupid shit is because of my conditions...i have chemical imbalance...it makes my brain think that way.



This is a classic example of the coput that so many use as a 'excuse' almost for the actions they make.

Now, i'm not saying that you don't have your conditions, and that they don't affect you thought chain.

But things like driving while disqualifyed, that is a stupid decision, and you KNOW that you're not supposed to do it. Conditions or not, it is not an excuse for that sort of stupid decisions.

I know quite a few people now that suffer from mental illness, and although i don't understand what it is like for them , there are definatly two types of them as far as i have seen

ones that deal with it and get on with life as best they can. They don't moan about it or constantly use it as an excuse for a bad decision etc. It must be hard for them, but they do well, and im proud of them

Then there are the ones that sit on their bums saying "why always me, my life is so bad, no one loves me, it's all my conditions fault".
Funny thing is they're the ones that get the most support, but they're also the ones that are likely to chuck it back in your face. and then moan when no one will listen to them.

-Glen

[MSTRS]

Right....
I'm reading all about mental disorders and so on...Where is it written that a mental disorder means that a person need not take responsibility for their actions? Skidmark says he knows all about his 'condition/s' and he is obviously intelligent (sic?) yet by doing f-all about moderating his actions, he ensures that 'normal' people will continue with their perception that marginalised people need to pull their heads in, HTFU, get a life, etc.
The so-called ADD/ADHD...never existed when I was young. Inattentive and naughty kids...certainly - there were ways of dealing with them, and it wasn't from the chemist. The correlation between slipping standards of self/discipline and the rise of diagnoses of ADD cannot be ignored. As a means of opting out of personal responsibility for oneself's actions, it can't be beaten. No wonder it is rife in these days of 'enlightenment'.
What is really unfortunate is that those with genuine issues get put in the same category as those who are simply self-centred.
A joke, sure, but an element of truth....
As the Xmas season draws nigh, foretelling the end of over a full month of Commercial Christmas, there is a special urgency in the spirits of children as they visit toy stores and toy departments all over the country.

It was with particular urgency that little Wilbert dragged his mother to the toy department in a big department store. Mother quickly steered Wilbert into the line of children waiting to talk to Santa, but Wilbert was far more interested in the hobby horse.

As soon as his mother relaxed her vigilance for a moment, Wilbert vanished from the Santa queue and began rocking back and forth on the hobby horse. His mother noticed his absence, and after a quick, frantic search, spotted him on the horse. She let him rock for a few minutes, then told him it was time to get off. Wilbert ignored her. She began to beg but Wilbert paid no attention. She began to make promises of ic cream and lollies etc, if only Wilbert would get off the hobby horse. He stuck his nasty little tongue out at her.

Then Santa himself, who had been watching this little family drama out of the corner of his eye, stepped over and said to Wilbert's mother, "Perhaps I can persuade your son to cooperate." "I doubt that," said the mother, "but you're welcome to try."

Santa, with a big smile, whispered quietly into Wilbert's ear. Wilbert's eyes grew very large, he quickly slid off the horse and took his mother's hand. Together, with no fuss, they left the store.

As they drove home, Mum asked Wilbert what Santa had whispered to him. Wilbert was silent. She began offering bribes if Wilbert would only tell her what Santa's words were. Wilbert turned pale and wouldn't utter a word.

What had Santa said? Wilbert's mother was determined to find out. She had never been able to get the kid to obey that easily, and decided it was worth a great deal of effort on her part to discover what magic Santa Claus had used on Wilbert.

She continued to bribe him with a soft voice and much cajolery, and Wilbert's stubborn streak finally faded. What did Santa say? Wilbert now answered: "He said, 'Listen, you little cunt, if you don't climb your ass the hell the fuck off that horse right this second, I'm going to beat the living crap out of you!'"

[NotaGoth]

i know i'm not normal, people can give me all the shit they want.



Define "normal" Mark? What exactly is normal??? Isn't "normal" just a silly little label society has created for those who meet everyone elses expectations as to how we *should* be? How do we know that what we class as normal, is actually in fact normal?? :blink:

[vifferman]

Define "normal" Mark? What exactly is normal??? Isn't "normal" just a silly little label society has created for those who meet everyone elses expectations as to how we *should* be? How do we know that what we class as normal, is actually in fact normal?? :blink:
Oh - that's blardy good, Young Ms Kitty! :niceone:
The more you study Human Beanz, the more you realise what an Odd Assortment we are, and how rare 'normal' is.

And MSTRS - I was all set to bestow some Xmas Goodness on you, but apparently I've been too nice to you recently. :(
Thanx for the larf, Dude! Much appreciated. :niceone:

[skidMark]

Define "normal" Mark? What exactly is normal??? Isn't "normal" just a silly little label society has created for those who meet everyone elses expectations as to how we *should* be? How do we know that what we class as normal, is actually in fact normal?? :blink:


there are norms societ expects us to corform to, like we must act a certain way.....

it;s like those signs hat say 100 with a red circle round em, buggered if i know what they mean but i think they are for society's expected norm....

**shrug**:woohoo:

[The Pastor]

Sometimes, i think im the only normal person alive.

[James Deuce]

Getting all wound up so easily on here can't be very productive, surely. :no:

That's easy for you to say.

Have a look at this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_anxiety_disorder

Then tell me that I shouldn't get upset about things people post on web sites, that I shouldn't sweat the small stuff. I do my best but sometimes I don't react the way people expect. Yes it's baffling, yes I'm sorry when it happens, but I can't use any of the drugs (long story) and CBT is only partially effective when you are dehydrated thanks to both the temperature and being in the grip of a condition that exacerbates dehydration and requires tremendous force of will to deal with.

I sit at my desk ranting a lot. It's a blow off valve that stops me from losing my rag at the drop of a hat. I've tried to knock back the ranting on KB.

There are plenty of people on this site who have witnessed me in the middle of an episode, but I've written it off as me just being a fat, sweaty hooty beast.

I'm not explaining any of this well.

I think it's time for a break.

You can come back and taunt me when I return in the New Year.

[Ocean1]

What exactly is normal???

We've done this before... oh well.

Please allow me to introduce myself... :cool:

[Winston001]

The one comment I'd like to make is that discussing a sensitive subject like this on an internet forum is a good idea. Yes, there are insensitive people who take the p but amongst them are genuine others who respond.

Furthermore there are those who read and don't post but still pick up on information. That can't be bad.

One of the problems with our modern world is we have lost a sense of community. Ironically people are more isolated today than 100 years ago. So forums like this provide a method of connecting and losing the isolation.

Agreed, it can be pretty rough and ready but there are enough good people to make me believe discussions like this are valuable. Help is offered by pm that most never know about.

Merry Christmas and good will to all KB members. :niceone:

[James Deuce]

There's a physical component to the issue as well. I keep forgetting I do have a bit of an excuse for being FITH.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=38403&highlight=Spinal+injuries

[Disco Dan]

That's easy for you to say.

Have a look at this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_anxiety_disorder

Then tell me that I shouldn't get upset about things people post on web sites, that I shouldn't sweat the small stuff. I do my best but sometimes I don't react the way people expect. Yes it's baffling, yes I'm sorry when it happens, but I can't use any of the drugs (long story) and CBT is only partially effective when you are dehydrated thanks to both the temperature and being in the grip of a condition that exacerbates dehydration and requires tremendous force of will to deal with.

I sit at my desk ranting a lot. It's a blow off valve that stops me from losing my rag at the drop of a hat. I've tried to knock back the ranting on KB.

There are plenty of people on this site who have witnessed me in the middle of an episode, but I've written it off as me just being a fat, sweaty hooty beast.

I'm not explaining any of this well.

I think it's time for a break.

You can come back and taunt me when I return in the New Year.

Interesting reading (even if it is wiki!!!).

A tad "low level" though...

I was thinking along the lines of Paranoid schizophrenia (http://www.schizophrenia.com/szparanoid.htm)

And also - Agoraphobia (http://www.mentalhealth.com/icd/p22-an02.html)


Very interesting mental illnesses - both of these examples are encountered on a daily basis in a variety of severitys in my job.

[candor]

Jim2 is right and its no contradiction. His point so far as I can tell was that people far too often attribute M.I. to environment when it is MOSTLY and strongly biochemical (or with head injury structural), and the person has no ability to change that through willpower or htfu any more than a t45t victim can sprout legs. Some may disagree but as a psyc trained & reg. nurse (UK) my views....

The main mental illnesses are

1) major depression ='s biochemical based. And no - prozac and other antidepresants do not add anything unnatural to the brain. They simply return the brain to normal functioning. They work by getting the brain to not destroy the serotonin (naturally produced happy chemicals) during times of low levels (for some that is life long) - therefore restoring normal levels of the happy / motivating / anxiety controlling chemicals in the brain.

Psychotic depression and post natal psychosis - chemical in origin.

2) manic depression now known as bipolar where people have a few weeks or months going high then the oposite. Also chemical in origin and therefore its a matter of some chemical engineering to get rid of the symptoms of mental illness.

3) schizophrenia - in this excess of the chemical that keeps our perceptions of reality (visual, auditory etc) clear (dopamine) distorts the input received causing hallucinations. This state which sufferers certainly can't control can be reproduced with a few weeks on drugs like cocaine or P.

Atop this complex brain dysfunctions scramble thinking ability so in bad cases its so scrambled (think of feeling delirious with a fever) people will feel anxious and go conclusion jumping as logical train of thought is hard to maintain - leads understandably to paranoid delusions (fixed weird ideas)... sometimes leading to mad acts.

Also physical wastage of the brain occurring over time (that can be viewed in dissections of dead schizos brains) results in destruction of the areas that give get up and go resulting in couch potato-ness and poor self care in between times of paniced madness (if the dopamine imbalance isn't treated alright via antipsychotic drugs).

4) personality disorders - the one mental illness cluster previously considered to be largely environment / upbringing based ie too do with psychology not biology. Way more evidence is now coming through foe these disorders to have strong genetic and biochemical basis too.

Mental illness is really a misnomer. Mostly it is physical based and requiring physical cures. As with any illness social and emotional support aids sufferers. The idea people just need to pull themselves together or htfu does not (typically) tho I guess there may be odd masochists liking such input.

As for using M.I. as an excuse for criminal offending. In my work life I've found the majority with mental illness and even really MAAAAAAAAD people are perfectly capable of knowing right from wrong (or at least what is considered to be) and usually just as capable as the rest of controlling their actions.

Exceptions would be illnesses causing impulsive ness or disinhibition. Like a mild manic person is going through life as if they've had a few drinks so might be more invlined to take a risk ortdo sometyhing silly. Some (rarely) schizos have a touch of this silly effervescence at stages of their illness.

ADHD will have more trouble controlling impulses but they can learn techniques for this and if they are genuine adhd (its much overdiagnosed) meds in time (as kids) plus a decent behaviour program should sort it so bad habits don't get entrenched.

Driving disqual - u won't get of on insanity with adhd. That was a decision - by someone less able to think it thru and see consequences if ADHD actually featured - but still one that could have been avoided with a bit of effort.

Skidmark. I know a crim of similar character to you.. who reformed after 17 years in and out of jail, it was just a new thought they learnt to interrupt "criminogenic" thought patterns with. It might help you. The phrase he coonsciously told himself (often) being an impulsive thrill seeker was "DON'T DO IT". It saved the taxpayer a lot.

[ElCoyote]

Bring back compulsory military training and 90%+ of these problems (excuses) would disappear and the benefit to society would be beyond imagination. Bad parenting and gutless pollies are by far the largest contributors to societal breakdown.:Pokey:

[James Deuce]

Bring back compulsory military training and 90%+ of these problems (excuses) would disappear and the benefit to society would be beyond imagination. Bad parenting and gutless pollies are by far the largest contributors to societal breakdown.:Pokey:

Bullshit.

How does CMT fix your brain chemistry? Oh I know, each "mental case" gets tortured by the squad and commits suicide.

[ElCoyote]

Bullshit.

How does CMT fix your brain chemistry? Oh I know, each "mental case" gets tortured by the squad and commits suicide.

Hey Ngati Pessimist,

I grew up in an era, when based on your birthdate you either got called up or escaped. In that era we had limited access to transport and you knew the people in your own neighbourhood very well. I was LUCKY enough to be "called up". Along with me were the societal disrupts who we all knew from our suburbs and who were destined for greater things within the prison system. Predictably they were rebellious at first, but left after their required time as model citizens with a responsible attitude, which I am pleased to say they have kept to this day and I count most of them as my best friends.

Today there would be a myriad of excuses offered as to the reasons for their anti-social behaviour as they have not experienced this regime.

Bullshit back to you JIM2, the main reason these people (today) are like they are, is lack of disipline or parental intervention.

Put whatever spin on CMT you like but it had a 100% success rate, until the Communists, tree huggers, poofters and pacifists invaded parliament and we now cannot discipline "our" children and instill social values and consequences of their actions in them.

Guess you are not a parent or condone the toe rags that abound in modern society. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :headbang:

[Usarka]

Hey Ngati Pessimist,

I grew up in an era, when based on your birthdate you either got called up or escaped. In that era we had limited access to transport and you knew the people in your own neighbourhood very well. I was LUCKY enough to be "called up". Along with me were the societal disrupts who we all knew from our suburbs and who were destined for greater things within the prison system. Predictably they were rebellious at first, but left after their required time as model citizens with a responsible attitude, which I am pleased to say they have kept to this day and I count most of them as my best friends.

Today there would be a myriad of excuses offered as to the reasons for their anti-social behaviour as they have not experienced this regime.

Bullshit back to you JIM2, the main reason these people (today) are like they are, is lack of disipline or parental intervention.

etc etc

So your saying that the is a direct correlation between the change and discipline in adults and the rise of mental illness? Nothing else has changed over the years that may also have affected it? :shit:

Things that also correlate with the increased diagnoses such as;
rise in the number of single parent families
rise in the number of families with both parents working
exponential increase in available information eg news and current events
massive increase in food additives and use of preservative laden pre-packaged food.
Etc

1. You're associating anti-social / criminal behaviour with mental illness which is not a valid association. There are plenty of crims with no mental illness, and plenty with mental illness that aren't crims.

2. A long bow is being drawn to pick one thing that has changed in the last 30 years and say it must be the cause of another thing that has changed.

[Ixion]

Bullshit.

How does CMT fix your brain chemistry? Oh I know, each "mental case" gets tortured by the squad and commits suicide.

Seen it happen. C.M.T. Compulsary Mental Torture.CMT was a bad bad bad place to be if you were 'different' in any way.

[ElCoyote]

etc etc

So your saying that the is a direct correlation between the change and discipline in adults and the rise of mental illness? Nothing else has changed over the years that may also have affected it? :shit:

Things that also correlate with the increased diagnoses such as;
rise in the number of single parent families
rise in the number of families with both parents working
exponential increase in available information eg news and current events
massive increase in food additives and use of preservative laden pre-packaged food.
Etc

1. You're associating anti-social / criminal behaviour with mental illness which is not a valid association. There are plenty of crims with no mental illness, and plenty with mental illness that aren't crims.

2. A long bow is being drawn to pick one thing that has changed in the last 30 years and say it must be the cause of another thing that has changed.

At least we are closer than the disparagy in your first quote.

I am saying that in our formative years, conduct that is (today) described as a mental problem, could have been diminished or even reprogrammed by a dose of discipline. The army took no prisoners but there were no casualties other than a bruised ego or two but with 200 plus other males surrounding you, if you had an opinion or propensity toward off the scale of the majority there was the option to re-evaluate your thoughts. You were not derided for thinking differently and in some cases thinking outside the square was inovative, but at the end of the day democracy works best and as I said previously, those who had what would today, be considered society's problem children quickly took stock of their minority status and as a result when I encountered these former rebels at periodic territorial training exercises they were model citizens and still are and I count them as close friends.

Lack of parental supervision is the reason for most of society's ills, but we prefer to blame the other parent for the suspect genes or cite mental illness.

A properly nurtured, reared and tought child, will never fall in the category of alphabetic excuses.

[James Deuce]

Hey Ngati Pessimist,

I grew up in an era, when based on your birthdate you either got called up or escaped. In that era we had limited access to transport and you knew the people in your own neighbourhood very well. I was LUCKY enough to be "called up". Along with me were the societal disrupts who we all knew from our suburbs and who were destined for greater things within the prison system. Predictably they were rebellious at first, but left after their required time as model citizens with a responsible attitude, which I am pleased to say they have kept to this day and I count most of them as my best friends.

Today there would be a myriad of excuses offered as to the reasons for their anti-social behaviour as they have not experienced this regime.

Bullshit back to you JIM2, the main reason these people (today) are like they are, is lack of disipline or parental intervention.

Put whatever spin on CMT you like but it had a 100% success rate, until the Communists, tree huggers, poofters and pacifists invaded parliament and we now cannot discipline "our" children and instill social values and consequences of their actions in them.

Guess you are not a parent or condone the toe rags that abound in modern society. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :headbang:

I was talking about me. Lack of discipline or parental intervention eh? My parents are still married. I went to Boys Brigade for 13 years. I played sports, both team and individual, I had two paper runs and a milk run. I topped my 3rd and 4th form class and I got top of some class or other for the other three years. I got the shit kicked out of me a school for being an egghead despite being in the First XI, and playing rep football.

I've never been on the dole.

A few years ago I managed to wangle my way onto a Masters programme without any previous University experience and before they closed my course down, managed two As and a B for the three papers I completed and an A for my thesis.

But I'm fucked in the head.

I've been run over by a drunk driver, neck and back broken, parasympathetic nervous system screwed and developed a form of depression as a direct result of my physical injuries.

So I'll ask again, how the fuck would CMT help a 42 year old with a family and a job?

You are typical of the "average person" who thinks everything can be fixed with a bit of HTFU.

You don't know what you're talking about.

You haven't even got the common decency to read anything I've written in this thread because just like most of your generation, you hatched from the womb knowing exactly how the world is supposed to work and you're always right. Typically of you lot, anyone who has issues is doing it all wrong and deserves it.

[James Deuce]

The army took no prisoners but there were no casualties other than a bruised ego or two but with 200 plus other males surrounding you.



Bullshit. Two of the guys on my Dad's course committed suicide, one by jumping out of the door of a Bristol Freighter. Sounds healthy to me.

[ElCoyote]

Bullshit. Two of the guys on my Dad's course committed suicide, one by jumping out of the door of a Bristol Freighter. Sounds healthy to me.


Either a generalisation, or your father had a very bad case of flatulence. I never flew in a Bristol (In the army at least) but had many a bumpy ride in a DC3 and neither flatulence or BO never made me consider "suicide", but perhaps I had a stronger mind or stomach than them. Stop generalising, if two people had done this in the history of CMT then let's get the percentage right, but to say that two people in your dad's platoon had done this and not state the reason for the doing so is disengenuous at the least.

We were getting closer in our views, but after this tirade I suspect that mental illness is rife in your family. No further correspondence will be entered into. Fuck Off

[ElCoyote]

I was talking about me. Lack of discipline or parental intervention eh? My parents are still married. I went to Boys Brigade for 13 years. I played sports, both team and individual, I had two paper runs and a milk run. I topped my 3rd and 4th form class and I got top of some class or other for the other three years. I got the shit kicked out of me a school for being an egghead despite being in the First XI, and playing rep football.

I've never been on the dole.

A few years ago I managed to wangle my way onto a Masters programme without any previous University experience and before they closed my course down, managed two As and a B for the three papers I completed and an A for my thesis.

But I'm fucked in the head.

I've been run over by a drunk driver, neck and back broken, parasympathetic nervous system screwed and developed a form of depression as a direct result of my physical injuries.

So I'll ask again, how the fuck would CMT help a 42 year old with a family and a job?

You are typical of the "average person" who thinks everything can be fixed with a bit of HTFU.

You don't know what you're talking about.

You haven't even got the common decency to read anything I've written in this thread because just like most of your generation, you hatched from the womb knowing exactly how the world is supposed to work and you're always right. Typically of you lot, anyone who has issues is doing it all wrong and deserves it.

Hey Ehoa,

I did read what you had to say and being run over by a drunk driver has nothing to do with your formative years which is my point. "My lot" eh? I guess that includes your dad.

CMT wouldn't help a 42 year old and neither would I expect it to, if you were a fuckwit at age 10 it certainly would.

Do not consider your circumstances as being typical of mainstream New Zealand especially due to your age. This is not a criticism of your age group but rather an example of how this problem was dealt with a generation ago when anti-social behaviour was just that, and not a mental illness. A child reacts to, and is bound to it's environment in the formative years and a lack of discipline can be quickly and cured early, which has enormous spin offs for society and you as a tax payer???????. In fact we may get politicians with a social conscience not those whimps who vote for what Uncle Helen says to vote for. Homosexual reform bill, electoral reform bill, in fact anything the majority oppose. Make any excuse you like but upbringing determines responsibility in later life.

Take responsibility for your own actions but don't hide behind mumbo jumbo and distorted rhetoric.

Control your own destiny and don't blame others.

[HTFU]

1. You're associating anti-social / criminal behaviour with mental illness which is not a valid association. There are plenty of crims with no mental illness, and plenty with mental illness that aren't crims.



(This thread got a new lease of life over Xmas :jerry:)

I would argue that to commit a crime or enter into criminal behaviour a person must have something wrong with them mentally. Definitely something that allows them to think it is ok in someway to do the crime or not to give a fuck about the crime they commit.

The ability to steal, abuse or kill is the result of something not 100% upstairs. Mentally stable people don't commit crimes. If they do then they are mental. I don't do crime, and there's no fucking way a crim is mentally the same as me.

Crims aren't mental - what next :bash:.

IMHO

[Ixion]

Hey Ehoa,

,,
CMT wouldn't help a 42 year old and neither would I expect it to, if you were a fuckwit at age 10 it certainly would.

,,.

Dunno where you come from dude, but here in Gawdzone CMT was from 19 and up. Not 10. There have been a few countries that have inducted 10 years old into the military. Not many of them were shining beacons of well runnedness.

CMT was a pretty decent lark if you were big strong and stupid. A jock in fact. Otherwise, otherwise. Dunno so much about discipline, but there sure was a shit load of bullying.

[Disco Dan]

Flipping fantastic. One of my clients just went AWOL. Great. more smegging work to do. *sigh* ...some dropkick took him off compulsory treatment order so he can just walk off... get up to mischief and we cant do sweet smeg all... Dam MHS system.

Oh well, one less to worry about... surfs up kiwibiker!

[HTFU]

Flipping fantastic. One of my clients just went AWOL. Great. more smegging work to do. *sigh* ...some dropkick took him off compulsory treatment order so he can just walk off... get up to mischief and we cant do sweet smeg all... Dam MHS system.

Oh well, one less to worry about... surfs up kiwibiker!

would a .22 calibre do the trick, its all I got to offer.

[Disco Dan]

would a .22 calibre do the trick, its all I got to offer.

Client would most likey make the bullet "disolve" since so many smegging people think my clients are some freak of nature... dam mainstream uninformed public.

[HTFU]

Client would most likey make the bullet "disolve" since so many smegging people think my clients are some freak of nature... dam mainstream uninformed public.

Damn that public I say. X - men like you say :crazy:.

[Disco Dan]

Quote

Client returned... thanks!

Of all the t-shirts to be wearing when the police arrive I had to be wearing my kiwibiker one... *sigh*

[Sanx]

For example, so many parents I know all believe that thier kids need to be on ritalin (sp) because they're out of control. Thing is that 99% of the kids are perfectly normal kids, the problem coming from the parents that don't take care of thier kids and wont disapline in an effective manner. To me that quite often seems a coput on the parents part.

U8vwZ6uY8HI

[Disco Dan]

Cambridge Evening News
August 11, 2006

INFORMATION given to some mental patients are before they undergo electric shock treatment has been criticised.

Supporters of Electric Convulsive Therapy (ECT) say the treatment is a “last resort” for patients who are severely depressed and it can help stop them committing suicide.

ECT “resets” the brain with an electric pulse.

Opponents say there is little evidence it works. They claim it can have severe side-effects and is a form of torture.

Cambridgeshire and Peterborough Mental Health Trust has revealed it has conducted 2,600 ECT treatments since 2002.

On average 50-55 people a year are given ECT by the trust in a course of six to 12 treatments. It said 26 people were done in Cambridge during the past year.

Mental health charity MIND, which found information about side-effects is often inadequate, said patients should be given a choice of receiving the treatment.

Paul Farmer, MIND chief executive, said: “Some people do find ECT helpful, but 84 per of respondents to our last survey on ECT had experienced side- effects.

“Our survey found nearly twothirds of people given ECT were not provided with information about its side-effects beforehand.

“Nearly half said they would not agree to have the treatment again. The most common longterm side-effects are memory loss, difficulty concentrating, and problems remembering new information, while headaches and dizziness are common in the short term.

“ECT is an invasive and irreversible procedure. It should only ever be used as a last resort for cases of extreme depression, when every other treatment has been tried.

“Even then, it should certainly never be given without fullyinformed consent, except in an emergency.”

But the mental health trust said the number of ECT treatments was small compared to the 4,000 in-patient admissions a year.

Dr Fiona Blake, consultant psychiatrist, said all patients were fully informed before undergoing treatment.

She said: “ECT is an effective treatment for depression, but our consultants take great care to ensure it is only offered in cases where it is likely to be clinically effective.

“The treatment is always discussed and explained, and we have good-quality information leaflets to support clinical consultations and a robust consent procedure.

“ECT treatment is a ‘last resort’ for depression when the patient has symptoms that indicate a likely good response and when other strategies have failed.”

She said it was sometimes the preferred treatment, for example for someone intensely suicidal, or too depressed to eat or drink.

She said the trust had been approved by the Royal College of Psychiatrists to administer ECT and commended by it for its consent procedures.

[jazbug5]

Dr Fiona Blake, consultant psychiatrist, said all patients were fully informed before undergoing treatment.

She said: “ECT is an effective treatment for depression, but our consultants take great care to ensure it is only offered in cases where it is likely to be clinically effective.

“The treatment is always discussed and explained, and we have good-quality information leaflets to support clinical consultations and a robust consent procedure.

“ECT treatment is a ‘last resort’ for depression when the patient has symptoms that indicate a likely good response and when other strategies have failed.”

She said it was sometimes the preferred treatment, for example for someone intensely suicidal, or too depressed to eat or drink.


So if someone is ill enough to need to be sectioned and/or given ECT, then how are they supposed to take on board the 'discussion' of the treatment, and what it says in the leaflet? And what, pray, is a 'robust consent procedure'?
I don't know if things have changed since the 80s/90s, but in the experience of my family it was certainly used then as punishment and as a form of restraint and control, with long lasting brain damage as a result.
However, I'm sure that nothing of the sort would happen now that there is 'robust consent'. Or... something.

[Disco Dan]

So if someone is ill enough to need to be sectioned and/or given ECT, then how are they supposed to take on board the 'discussion' of the treatment, and what it says in the leaflet? And what, pray, is a 'robust consent procedure'?
I don't know if things have changed since the 80s/90s, but in the experience of my family it was certainly used then as punishment and as a form of restraint and control, with long lasting brain damage as a result.
However, I'm sure that nothing of the sort would happen now that there is 'robust consent'. Or... something.

Careful using the phrase 'punishment' in that way.

A grown man/woman with very challenging behaviours is a lot different to say a 5 year old boy/girl with challenging behaviours.

It is a corrective tool still in use in this country today.

I support it's usage, I have worked with clients whom have had electrotherapy and even the client is now able to reflect upon it and speak highly of it.

"Clinical discussions" usually refers to qualified and experienced psychotherapists and trained nursing staff as well as family members and/or support persons (identified by client).


Let me put it to you in plain simple terms -

Client XY is clinically depressed to the point of self harm and has demonstrated 'planning' in terms of suicide and/or has made attempt/s already to take his/her life.

This client has would have been in the 'system' and have gone through intensive psychotherapy and support staff would have been working closely with him/her using the Boston Recovery Model (widely used throughout NZ).

All of this would have had to have failed as well as a mental state deterioration to the point of hospitalisation before electrotherapy would even be brought up into conversation.

It is not used lightly as a lot of its effects (especially long term) are still unknown - but it IS still in use today as it DOES work in certain situations.

[jazbug5]

Dan, I think I know what I'm saying.

In the case which I am referring to it was used to punish an escape attempt, and to pacify the patient for the convenience of the hospital. I mention it only to point out that historically it has been used in this way- not that it always is, or even that such use is common.

Perhaps the application was, in this case, also more severe, since it did result in quantifiable brain damage.

At any rate- having seen my family go through this at very close range, I hope you will understand my reservations on this treatment.

Oh, and also- human nature being human nature, and short staffing being endemic- I am cynical about the possible use of it in the way I mention, even if there are best practice procedure manuals coming out of eveyone's ears...
but then I have no experience of the system in NZ.

[Disco Dan]

Dan, I think I know what I'm saying.

In the case which I am referring to it was used to punish an escape attempt, and to pacify the patient for the convenience of the hospital. I mention it only to point out that historically it has been used in this way- not that it always is, or even that such use is common.

Perhaps the application was, in this case, also more severe, since it did result in quantifiable brain damage.

At any rate- having seen my family go through this at very close range, I hope you will understand my reservations on this treatment.

I would have to say that there would have been more to it than that, but I am not nieve, in the sense that I know there is malpractice in the industry and misuse of such treatments does happen.

It is most unfortunate that you have had to witness this treatment within your family. I only hope that some good came of it - and that you were not in the room at the time! It is certainly a very traumatic thing to watch - when I worked in a MH Hospital I got to see it first hand. I would not wish it upon anyone, but in saying that there is uses for it!

[YellowDog]

There are many nutters on the streets. In fact I would say that every human being has their own personal psychiatric issues, however minor these may be. Some call this a personality, which has developed or not developed based upon their life experiences.

Perhaps there needs to be some acceptance that not everyone can be fixed. Though I know nothing about electrotherapy, it scares me that this may be considered a potential remedy.

The paedofile with the elastic band around his wrist to 'Ping' himself everytime he has an impure thought about children really should not be on the streets (or allowed into Parliament :-) ).

And what about women? Because they are considered the weaker of the specis, we let more mentally ill women roam the streets.

My point is that some balance is required and that there is a need for 'special envirionments' to support people who are beyond help.

[Disco Dan]

T
The paedofile with the elastic band around his wrist to 'Ping' himself everytime he has an impure thought about children really should not be on the streets (or allowed into Parliament :-) ).


I always laugh when I hear that one!!!

When you have seen a persons wrist dripping in blood, swollen and the person still 'pinging' because he/she has been "trained" you will know it is bad news. Extreme case though, has a very good "placebo" effect on a basic level behavioral scale.

I used to look after pedophiles in supported accommodation. We would do room searches once a month - one time we found 3 dead cats in his cupboard and no they were not pets. No puncture repair kit needed for those poor cats.

[James Deuce]

Control your own destiny and don't blame others.

I'm pretty certain you're either not reading the same words that people are typing or English is a second language. You are VERY good at reading conclusions into things that aren't there.

I blame no one, I ask for no help, I'm not on a sickness benefit despite being disabled enough by my spinal injuries to to be able to.

People honestly talk about their issues in a thread designed specifically for that and you leap to a collection of exaggerated conclusions about things and people you know nothing about.

It was definitely a massive mistake on my part to have said anything.

[YellowDog]

Dan mate, as you have already suggested, most of us know bugger all about this complex subject. Like most of the posters on this sight, I admire and respect you for the work that you do.

The phrase "Ignorance is Bliss" is quite appropriate for this subject.

[Ixion]

,,

ECT “resets” the brain with an electric pulse.

Opponents say there is little evidence it works. They claim it can have severe side-effects and is a form of torture.

,,
Dr Fiona Blake, consultant psychiatrist, said all patients were fully informed before undergoing treatment.

She said: “ECT is an effective treatment for depression, but our consultants take great care to ensure it is only offered in cases where it is likely to be clinically effective.

“The treatment is always discussed and explained, and we have good-quality information leaflets to support clinical consultations and a robust consent procedure.

,,

I cannot speak for Cambridgeshire. But it is certain that in NZ there is most definately not a "robust consent procedure" for ECT. By the DHBs own figures 22% of treatments are without consent, ie by force. In Manakau the figure is 58%. And in a very large number of those nominally 'consenting' the 'consent' is obtained by intimidation or deception.

I cannot say whether ECT is still used as a punishment regime. The revelations about Lake Alice make it plain that is has been used thus in the past , and routinely so. I see no reason to suppose that the trick-cyclists have changed their spots.

ECT is horrendously damaging to those forced to undergo it. It is claimed that it is "beneficial' in some cases. These claims are rather like the classic medical statement "the operation was a success, pity the patient died".

In these claimed successful cases, typically the victim was previously depressed or suicidal (which of course brings up the whole question of whether a determination to end ones own life should be be regarded as ipso facto evidence of mental illness. But that is another story). It is claimed that, afterwards the patient does not have such suicidal intent. That may be true, but it is only because the electric shock causes such significant brain damage that the victim is unable to muster sufficient mental capability to determine upon anything at all. They eliminate the 'patients' depression by turning her (it is usually a her) into a vegetable. Vegetables are never depressed. Or otherwise.

It is a very cruel and barbaric abuse which should not be tolerated. And an indictment upon a health system which shows , yet again, that where the elderly or vulnerable are concerned, the myth of treatement by consent is just that - a myth.

[jazbug5]

Good post, Ixion- but it's worth pointing out ECT does not generally render the patient a 'vegetable' permanently. If it did, then there would have been more of an outcry about it before now.

Other than that, some good points.