Global warming?

[oldrider]

Just to keep the global warming addicts happy.

Got up this morning to a dusting of snow on the local tops!

I wasn't dreaming of a white Christmas either.

Not too cool for riding though. Have a happy boxing day people. Cheers John.

[Taz]

Mmmm Snow. Don't eat the yellow bits....

[zadok]

Yeeks! We had 40 deg here Xmas day and same again today.:sunny::sweatdrop

[Jantar]

Got up this morning to a dusting of snow on the local tops!.
More than a dusting on this side of the range, John. The Dunstans are solid white above 3000'.

[Swoop]

It is NOT global warming! It IS global TAXING of those nations stupid enough to believe the "untied nations" and their get-rich-quick" scheme!
[/rant]

[paturoa]

Did Santa sneeze?

Compliments of the season to you and your family.

[Street Gerbil]

It is freezing here in Hahei. I must be cursed - my every vacation starts with cold showers.

[Winston001]

Not much snow in sight but the air is surprisingly cold here in Arrowtown at our crib. Trailored the R80 up here for a few blats through the Kawarau gorge.

6 degrees C right now outside.

[Mooch]

I thought your area was one of the hotest climates in NZ this time of year.

Forget global warming , must be global moving .... Maybe the south pole has moved to NZ. :jerry:

[SPman]

Last week it was 20, Boxing day was 45 at our place!

[Winston001]

Shag! It is 3 degrees in Arrowtown right now and the rain is persisting down. I pity the people in the Central Otago camping grounds. On the other hand, it should wash off some of the oil from the roads for a blat tomorrow......:yes:

[Nonbeliever]

Shag! It is 3 degrees in Arrowtown right now and the rain is persisting down. I pity the people in the Central Otago camping grounds. On the other hand, it should wash off some of the oil from the roads for a blat tomorrow......:yes:

just look out for cop cars!!

[Ocean1]

For a bit of agitation...

http://climatedebatedaily.com/

http://www.climatescience.org.nz/

[Jantar]

You missed out

http://www.climatescience.org.nz/

[Ocean1]

You missed out

http://www.climatescience.org.nz/

Did not too!!

[Jantar]

Ooops. Sorry, I didn't click on your second link. :o

[Magua]

The biggest danger we face comes from people who think we have a concensus and that there is no room for discussion. There's always room for discussion, especially when dealing with scientific "truth", being that which most closely aproximates reality.

[Ixion]

In my experience "scientific truth" most closely approximates the khazi after a particularly bad curry.

[Ocean1]

The biggest danger we face comes from people who think we have a concensus and that there is no room for discussion. There's always room for discussion, especially when dealing with scientific "truth", being that which most closely aproximates reality.


In my experience "scientific truth" most closely approximates the khazi after a particularly bad curry.

Truth's a dirty word, a slippery wee fucker you won’t hear a scientist use.

The biggest danger we face is the rise of the concept of fact as a negotiable item, a tradeable political commodity. It’s usually in converting fact to "truth" that you find the loss of objectivity reminiscent of the aftermath of a dodgy vindaloo.

[Pwalo]

Truth's a dirty word, a slippery wee fucker you won’t hear a scientist use.



Indeed, as my old tutor used to say, 'If you want truth talk to a philosopher. Science is about fact.'

Come on get with the agenda. It's 'Climate Change' now.

[Ocean1]

Indeed, as my old tutor used to say, 'If you want truth talk to a philosopher. Science is about fact.'

Come on get with the agenda. It's 'Climate Change' now.

Agenda is exactly the word applicable to most of the climate change "truths" on offer. And "Climate Change" is simply changing the packaging to avoid the facts.

[Badjelly]

The biggest danger we face comes from people who think we have a consensus and that there is no room for discussion. There's always room for discussion, especially when dealing with scientific "truth", being that which most closely aproximates reality.

Yeah. I believe the earth is flat but will the scientific establishment debate it with me? Not likely. In fact flat-earth geographers have been systematically excluded from the universities.

Look, some scientific facts are settled (pending surprising new evidence, of course) and some are not. Consequently some discussions are worth having and some are a waste of time (as any KBer knows).

[Jantar]

Global Warming? New Data Shows Ice Is Back

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:55 AM

By: Phil Brennan

Are the world's ice caps melting because of climate
change, or are the reports just a lot of scare mongering
by the advocates of the global warming theory?

Scare mongering appears to be the case, according to
reports from the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric
Administration (NOAA) that reveal that almost all the
allegedly "lost" ice has come back. A NOAA report
shows that ice levels which had shrunk from 5 million
square miles in January 2007 to just 1.5 million square
miles in October, are almost back to their original levels.

Moreover, a Feb. 18 report in the London Daily Express
showed that there is nearly a third more ice in Antarctica
than usual, challenging the global warming crusaders
and buttressing arguments of skeptics who deny that the
world is undergoing global warming.

The Daily express recalls the photograph of polar bears clinging on to
a melting iceberg which has been widely
hailed as proof of the need to fight climate change and
has been used by former Vice President Al Gore during
his "Inconvenient Truth" lectures about mankind's
alleged impact on the global climate.

Gore fails to mention that the photograph was taken in
the month of August when melting is normal. Or that the
polar bear population has soared in recent years.

As winter roars in across the Northern Hemisphere,
Mother Nature seems to have joined the ranks of the
skeptics.

As the Express notes, scientists are saying the northern Hemisphere
has endured its coldest winter in decades, adding that snow cover
across the area is at its greatest
since 1966. The newspaper cites the one exception --
Western Europe, which had, until the weekend when
temperatures plunged to as low as -10 C in some
places, been basking in unseasonably warm weather.

Around the world, vast areas have been buried under
some of the heaviest snowfalls in decades. Central and
southern China, the United States, and Canada were
hit hard by snowstorms. In China, snowfall was so
heavy that over 100,000 houses collapsed under the
weight of snow.

Jerusalem, Damascus, Amman, and northern Saudi
Arabia report the heaviest falls in years and below-zero temperatures.
In Afghanistan, snow and freezing
weather killed 120 people. Even Baghdad had a
snowstorm, the first in the memory of most residents.

AFP news reports icy temperatures have just swept
through south China, stranding 180,000 people and
leading to widespread power cuts just as the area was
recovering from the worst weather in 50 years, the
government said Monday. The latest cold snap has
taken a severe toll in usually temperate Yunnan
province, which has been struck by heavy snowfalls
since Thursday, a government official from the provincial
disaster relief office told AFP.

Twelve people have died there, state Xinhua news
agency reported, and four remained missing as of
Saturday.

An ongoing record-long spell of cold weather in
Vietnam's northern region, which started on Jan.
14, has killed nearly 60,000 cattle, mainly bull and
buffalo calves, local press reported Monday. By Feb. 17,
the spell had killed a total of 59,962 cattle in the region, including
7,349 in the Ha Giang province, 6,400 in Lao
Cai, and 5,571 in Bac Can province, said Hoang Kim
Giao, director of the Animal Husbandry Department
under the Vietnamese Ministry of Agriculture and Rural
Development, according to the Pioneer newspaper.

In Britain the temperatures plunged to -10 C in central
England, according to the Express, which reports that
experts say that February could end up as one of the
coldest in Britain in the past 10 years with the freezing
night-time conditions expected to stay around a frigid
-8 C until at least the middle of the week. And the BBC
reports that a bus company's efforts to cut global
warming emissions have led to services being
disrupted by cold weather.

Meanwhile Athens News reports that a raging snow
storm that blanketed most of Greece over the weekend
and continued into the early morning hours on Monday, plunging the
country into sub-zero temperatures. The
agency reported that public transport buses were at a
standstill on Monday in the wider Athens area, while
ships remained in ports, public services remained
closed, and schools and courthouses in the more
severely-stricken prefectures were also closed.

Scores of villages, mainly on the island of Crete, and
in the prefectures of Evia, Argolida, Arcadia, Lakonia,
Viotia, and the Cyclades islands were snowed in.

More than 100 villages were snowed-in on the island
of Crete and temperatures in Athens dropped to -6 C
before dawn, while the coldest temperatures were
recorded in Kozani, Grevena, Kastoria and Florina,
where they plunged to -12 C.

Temperatures in Athens dropped to -6 C before dawn,
while the coldest temperatures were recorded in
Kozani, Grevena, Kastoria and Florina, where they
plunged to -12 C.

If global warming gets any worse we'll all freeze to
death.

(c) 2008 Newsmax.

[idb]

I'm all for global warming.
I burn all my plastics and eat heaps of beans.

[Magua]

Yeah. I believe the earth is flat but will the scientific establishment debate it with me? Not likely. In fact flat-earth geographers have been systematically excluded from the universities.

Look, some scientific facts are settled (pending surprising new evidence, of course) and some are not. Consequently some discussions are worth having and some are a waste of time (as any KBer knows).

Uh, I meant global warming, not everything, heh.

[Mental Trousers]

/me adds Global Warming to the list of threads that keep coming up every few months and require their own dump thread in PD

[vtec]

Sorry to dredge, but it seems that Global warming is still pretty popular in NZ. The media is still on the bandwagon, I'm just suprised they didn't blame the tsunami in the Islands on GW. The government is looking at passing legislation and signing agreements on "science" that is completely unresolved.

Here's a link regarding the main theme of GW claims. Does CO2 affect the temperature of the earth?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fCP_nHRjP8&videos=9201sUoLdf4
3 vids for you, to save having to read too much.

Cheers

Jason

[Naki Rat]

...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fCP_nHRjP8&videos=9201sUoLdf4
3 vids for you, to save having to read too much.

Cheers

Jason

Rehash of the "Great Global Warming Swindle" by the looks. Two points of contention; Is CO2 the cause or the symptom? And if CO2 is the problem are humans a significant cause of it's increased levels?

"Home" is the latest 'Inconvenient Truth' type production but the anthropogenic global warming link is a bit tenuous. 1 1/2 hour video to download but well worth the HD version to appreciate the brilliant visuals, link here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqxENMKaeCU

[Indiana_Jones]

Hey don't let the truth get in the way of a good scare mongering session.....

someone is making a lot of money out of this bollocks....

-Indy

[SPORK]

Sorry to dredge, but it seems that Global warming is still pretty popular in NZ. The media is still on the bandwagon, I'm just suprised they didn't blame the tsunami in the Islands on GW.

Yeah, that mindless media. I'm surprised they didn't blame an event caused by earthquakes/volcanic eruptions on a layer of insulating gasses surrounding the earth, too!

Those types of youtube videos are usually all in the same camp as the Loose Change/Zeitgeist videos.

Can I interest you in a book called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

[oldrider]

Yeah, that mindless media. I'm surprised they didn't blame an event caused by earthquakes/volcanic eruptions on a layer of insulating gasses surrounding the earth, too!

Those types of youtube videos are usually all in the same camp as the Loose Change/Zeitgeist videos.

Can I interest you in a book called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

Hmmm! The old "Protocols of Zion", I first read that book in 1964! :eek5:

Amazingly, so much of it appears to be of substance and don't the actions speak "louder" than any of the words! :shifty:

[Quasievil]

Rehash of the "Great Global Warming Swindle" by the looks. Two points of contention; Is CO2 the cause or the symptom? And if CO2 is the problem are humans a significant cause of it's increased levels?




Manmade C02 counts for 3.4% of total c02 emissions, of that 1.7% is absorbed.........so why do we need to pay tax on 1.7% when that little 1.7% amounts to nothin in the scale of change, and NZ would be a pathetically small donator to that figure.

ITS A SCAM:nono:

[SPORK]

Hmmm! The old "Protocols of Zion", I first read that book in 1964! :eek5:

Amazingly, so much of it appears to be of substance and don't the actions speak "louder" than any of the words! :shifty:
Please tell me you're joking... It's a blatantly false, anti-semetic text written with the sole purpose of providing such similar anti-semites with 'reason' for their hatred and distrust.

[Supermac Jr]

ITS A SCAM:nono:

There is a big difference between what the media report and what scientists agree.

The scientific community agreed back in 2000 that human activities are significantly influencing the environment with the body of scientific evidence proving it growing. I'm amazed that people still think that climate change is a myth or that humans aren't playing a significant part in causing it. WTF?

The lastest UNEP report shows that "climate change is accelerating at a much
faster pace than was previously thought by scientists". New scientific
evidence suggests important tipping points, leading to irreversible changes
in major Earth systems.

http://www.unep.org/compendium2009/PDF/compendium2009.pdf

[Quasievil]

There is a big difference between what the media report and what scientists agree.

The scientific community agreed back in 2000 that human activities are significantly influencing the environment with the body of scientific evidence proving it growing. I'm amazed that people still think that climate change is a myth or that humans aren't playing a significant part in causing it. WTF?

The lastest UNEP report shows that "climate change is accelerating at a much
faster pace than was previously thought by scientists". New scientific
evidence suggests important tipping points, leading to irreversible changes
in major Earth systems.

http://www.unep.org/compendium2009/PDF/compendium2009.pdf

Yes its amazing how many scientists will agree to B.S to get more funding.

3.4%......1.7% from humans thats science.

Climate is changing but dont blame us, blame your enviromental natural patterns

[SPORK]

Yes its amazing how many scientists will agree to B.S to get more funding.

3.4%......1.7% from humans thats science.

Climate is changing but dont blame us, blame your enviromental natural patterns
I struggle to understand or agree with your line of thinking when you to distrust the science from once camp while quoting figures from the other.

In your eyes what makes the skeptical scientists any more qualified?

If you feel you are more qualified than hundreds upon hundreds of independent researchers to make a call on this, then I guess arguing is absolutely pointless.

[Skyryder]

Hey Old Rider. Balls drop in hot weather=more sex, balls rise in cold weather=less sex. Now just look at the population increase. Global warming..........that proves it.:niceone:


Skyryder

[Supermac Jr]

3.4% (probably even a bit lower between 1.5% and 3.3%) of the total is from us and around half is absorbed right . What happens to the half that's not absorbed? --> increase concentrations. We're also getting better at pumping the shit into the air. We've had annual growth of 3.3% between 2000 and 2006.
And the bit that is doing the absorption, mainly the oceans is not as effective at it anymore and absorbing less over time.

Yes natural processes play a part, but we're causing tipping points to be crossed. Such as the thawing of the tundra (heaps of methane released which is a more effective GHG than CO2). Some emissions also have a cooling effect (more particples in the air help more clouds to form and certain emissions have reflective characteristics, blah blah blah...) but the net effect is a increase in the ability of the atmosphere to absorb energy (heat) and its all the feedback loops (natural processes) that's the shit.

My experience with scientists is that they tend to be scientists and not wall street bankers and with the exception they tend to just' want to play in the academic field.

I don't subscribe to global warming but to climate change. 1 or 2 degrees is enough to cock-up the system like slowly boiling a frog

: The earthquakes were caused by GW- tui

[SPORK]

I don't think enough people are concerned with land/soil degradation. I don't have the figures on me at the moment but if I recall correctly approximately 40% of the world's agricultural land is in a state of degradation. 75% of land in Central Ameria is infertile.

I'm far from a treehugger, but as a species we really are doing a number on the planet.

[Naki Rat]

3.4% (probably even a bit lower between 1.5% and 3.3%) of the total is from us and around half is absorbed right . What happens to the half that's not absorbed? --> increase concentrations. We're also getting better at pumping the shit into the air. We've had annual growth of 3.3% between 2000 and 2006.
And the bit that is doing the absorption, mainly the oceans is not as effective at it anymore and absorbing less over time.

Yes natural processes play a part, but we're causing tipping points to be crossed. Such as the thawing of the tundra (heaps of methane released which is a more effective GHG than CO2). Some emissions also have a cooling effect (more particples in the air help more clouds to form and certain emissions have reflective characteristics, blah blah blah...) but the net effect is a increase in the ability of the atmosphere to absorb energy (heat) and its all the feedback loops (natural processes) that's the shit.

My experience with scientists is that they tend to be scientists and not wall street bankers and with the exception they tend to just' want to play in the academic field.

I don't subscribe to global warming but to climate change. 1 or 2 degrees is enough to cock-up the system like slowly boiling a frog

Similar views here with the addition that climate change will probably become noticed as increasingly volatile weather events rather than any actual noticeable warming. What we see as weather is the short term balancing of differing zones of temperature whereas climate is the long term average of such events. If the rate of balance between hot and cold zones becomes more active we get 'freak' weather but the overall climate doesn't reflect anywhere near the same degree of change.

[Naki Rat]

I don't think enough people are concerned with land/soil degradation. I don't have the figures on me at the moment but if I recall correctly approximately 40% of the world's agricultural land is in a state of degradation. 75% of land in Central Ameria is infertile.

I'm far from a treehugger, but as a species we really are doing a number on the planet.

Sounds like you may have seen "Home" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqxENMKaeCU) . If you haven't it will blow your socks off :shit:

[SPORK]

Sounds like you may have seen "Home" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqxENMKaeCU) . If you haven't it will blow your socks off :shit:
Woh, since when did youtube allow videos longer than 10 minutes or whatever?

Haven't seen this particular video, but will take a look at some stage. Learnt most I know on the subject (only to have forgotten it again) last/this year, as they tend to stress environmental impact pretty hard in architecture school, and it became a bit of an interest of mine.

[Quasievil]

In your eyes what makes the skeptical scientists any more qualified?



Simple there is no money in being skeptical

Scientists that have signed up to the B.S "global warming is caused by man so we must pay cash swindle"lol.......most of them arent even scientists.

There are higher qualified sceintists that are on the skeptic side in actual fact.

Want truth follow the money.......Al gore is laughing his $$$$ rich arse of

[Jantar]

...The scientific community agreed back in 2000 that human activities are significantly influencing the environment with the body of scientific evidence proving it growing. I'm amazed that people still think that climate change is a myth or that humans aren't playing a significant part in causing it. WTF?

Sorry, but the "scientic community" did not agree on any such thing. One of the key elements of scientic method is that if there is concensus then it isn't science. The so called "agreement" was the IPCC declaration which had 2500 contributors. Very few of these contributers were scientists and many of those that were scientists were government appointed with a pre-determined agenda. Few contributors were able to see the entire report and many changes to scientific statements were made.

[SPORK]

Simple there is no money in being skeptical

Scientists that have signed up to the B.S "global warming is caused by man so we must pay cash swindle"lol.......most of them arent even scientists.

There are higher qualified sceintists that are on the skeptic side in actual fact.

Want truth follow the money.......Al gore is laughing his $$$$ rich arse of
Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Common sense suggests that the multinational conglomerate corporations have it in their interests to employ scientists to attempt to disprove climate change. So if we go with your theory of "want truth follow the money" it would lead us right back to those responsible for dumping millions of tonnes of GH gasses into the atmosphere.

Don't even get me started on "most scientists that research climate change aren't scientists" because that just made my head hurt.

Even if you do not believe the evidence pointing towards climate change, you simply cannot deny the irresponsible and unsustainable nature of our consumption of resources, manufacturing methods and first world lifestyles.

[Supermac Jr]

:yeah:
"global warming is

Important point: global warming was the issue around the 1980 -early 1990s. It's long since moved on to CChange. big difference between them.

Its the 'money system' (capitalism) that is trying to put a price on the cause of climate change and use the charge as an incentive to reduce pollution. [in economic terms to internalise the externality].

I think you just didn't like your science teacher and hence the sceptisims. Or maybe you did like her?:yeah:

[Supermac Jr]

Sorry, but the "scientic community" did not agree on any such thing. One of the key elements of scientic method is that if there is concensus then it isn't science. The so called "agreement" was the IPCC declaration which had 2500 contributors. Very few of these contributers were scientists and many of those that were scientists were government appointed with a pre-determined agenda. Few contributors were able to see the entire report and many changes to scientific statements were made.

Umm you talking about the science or the politcal process around stuff like Emissions Trading Schemes?
The IPCC declaration was back in 2000 (Amsterdam) and they're up to the 4th Assessment Report (online)

[oldrider]

Please tell me you're joking... It's a blatantly false, anti-semetic text written with the sole purpose of providing such similar anti-semites with 'reason' for their hatred and distrust.

You may say it's false, I don't profess to know, I read it and decided that if it is true, I can't do anything about it anyway!

Then I looked at it again and thought, you could change the text and target any specific group on earth!

Such people could then just use it to base an argument on it and you could create any situation you want from it.

Adolph Hitler and his Nazi party for instance?

Look how many people read the bible and the Koran ETC and then claim it is all happening!

You can make anything fit the facts as life goes by, prophesy and fulfilment is the oldest game in town!

I don't profess to know what is true or false, I only know what life experience has shown me what is most likely the truth!

That then becomes my perception and any man's perception becomes his reality!

I think the book has been floating around since before the Bolshevik revolution if my memory serves me correctly!

It's not something that I dwell on but you were the one who raised the subject, in your earlier post, wondered why you did that actually!

[SPORK]

I brought it up as an example of backwards thinking, baseless assumptions and a lack of common sense I associate with conspiracy theory videos and those that profess to know the Truth (the polar opposite to what subject experts publish).

Ok I'm way too tired - this is a really poorly written post. Peace.

[Jantar]

Umm you talking about the science or the politcal process around stuff like Emissions Trading Schemes?
The IPCC declaration was back in 2000 (Amsterdam) and they're up to the 4th Assessment Report (online)
I am talking about the science. That branch of research that was hijacked by the IPCC to meet a pre determined agenda.

Yes, I do know about the 4th AR. Please read it your self and note the absence of the Mann hockey stick for example. That was shown to be not just bad science, but deliberate misuse of data etc.

[oldrider]

I brought it up as an example of backwards thinking, baseless assumptions and a lack of common sense I associate with conspiracy theory videos and those that profess to know the Truth (the polar opposite to what subject experts publish).

Ok I'm way too tired - this is a really poorly written post. Peace.

Just went back and re-read your original post, yeah, got it, it fits. :niceone:

[Indiana_Jones]

Climate is changing but dont blame us, blame your enviromental natural patterns

Bro, didn't you know man caused the last ice age?

-Indy

[Quasievil]

Bro, didn't you know man caused the last ice age?

-Indy

I did...........shit

I have learned that you cant argue with the new age religion of "green" these man haters will have you in a cave in a week given the chance.

[davereid]

Its really simple.

We have to reduce carbon emissions by 40 % to save the world.

Most carbon emissions in NZ come from the production of food, electricity and transport.

So we need to increase the price of food, electricity and transport, using carbon taxes, carbon trading etc until the poorest 40% cant afford them.

Problem solved, world saved.

Except the poorest 40%.

[Supermac Jr]

note the absence of the Mann hockey stick for example. That was shown to be not just bad science, but deliberate misuse of data etc.

Agree and noted. Mann is like bad-ass biker --> gives everybody a bad name.

AR4 does make for interesting reading with the different systems being impacted and the feedback and linkages between them.

So you're saying that IPCC et al have been hijacked to protect economic interest (e.g. arguments such as foodmiles)?

[Jantar]

...So you're saying that IPCC et al have been hijacked to protect economic interest (e.g. arguments such as foodmiles)?
I am saying that the process has been hijacked. I have not given a reason for this as that would only be speculation.

I am always happy to discuss the science, but when it comes to AGW philosophy I shall defer to those who deal with the psychology of the proponents.

[Supermac Jr]

fair enough

not trying to convert you, wait till I get my Bible...



...threads that keep coming up every few months...

[scumdog]

Glodal warming is really hitting home here where it's a sweltering 2.7 degrees at Chez Scumdog back door right now..

[oldrider]

Glodal warming is really hitting home here where it's a sweltering 2.7 degrees at Chez Scumdog back door right now..

That must be why you are such a cold hearted miserable hard to get along with old cunt Scumdog! :niceone: :lol: (I jest)

[Street Gerbil]

I wonder, why did they re-brand "global warming" into "climate change". To every man with more than one brain cell it must be pretty obvious that global warming sucks. Just think about it - people have caused global warming once and now all wooly mammoths are gone...

[paddy]

Global warming is definitely real, I mean, it was only a month ago that I was regularly using the heater at night. Now, I need to put the thinner duvet on. That's pretty rapid change...

[Quasievil]

I wonder, why did they re-brand "global warming" into "climate change". To every man with more than one brain cell it must be pretty obvious that global warming sucks. Just think about it - people have caused global warming once and now all wooly mammoths are gone...

Are you seriously saying Humans are responsible for the Mammoth demise due to our climate change influences?

[Skyryder]

Glodal warming is really hitting home here where it's a sweltering 2.7 degrees at Chez Scumdog back door right now..

So I suppose 'streaking' is out of the question:rolleyes:


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Are you seriously saying Humans are responsible for the Mammoth demise due to our climate change influences?

Last I heard the Wooly Mammoths died out due to a shearers strike. They over cooked and a big feast was had by all.

Skyryder

[Winston001]

I wonder, why did they re-brand "global warming" into "climate change"?

I think global warming was too simplistic a term. Climate is extraordinarily complex, one place heats up, that causes another to receive cold wet weather as a reaction, tends to undermine the assumption of uniform warming.

Also global warming has become confused with anthropogenic causes - has mankind caused it? Its a pointless debate but rages nonetheless. :spanking:

So climate change is more accurate and avoids the "manmade" label. Its essentially a pollution issue but in this soundbite age, politicians can't explain it properly.

The carbon trading scheme is a crude but useful economic instrument to force people to stop polluting the planet. I'm not convinced NZ is fairly treated under it.

[Winston001]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Common sense suggests that the multinational conglomerate corporations have it in their interests to employ scientists to attempt to disprove climate change. So if we go with your theory of "want truth follow the money" it would lead us right back to those responsible for dumping millions of tonnes of GH gasses into the atmosphere.



Ah nice to see someone spell it out. I cannot for the life of me understand conspiracy theorists who think climate change and carbon trading are a scam designed to make money for mysterious unnamed parties.

Follow the money = the last thing any politician wants is to impose more taxes on people for no visible benefit. That is political suicide.

Follow the money = which is in the hands of existing corporate businesses including the vast oil and chemical industries. Why would any of them want governments imposing taxes which will reduce their sales?? In fact they want the opposite - the faster oil is used up, the higher the price goes, the better the profits.

[Street Gerbil]

Climate changes. Period. Re-branding "global warming" is a good old bait-and-switch: "Ok, we told you it is getting warmer, ok, so it is not getting warmer, but climate changes, right? Ok, so you agree that climate changes, right, QED: global warming is real!".
Quasi, to answer your question. I believe that that humankind is complicit in the current global warming to the same extent as in the previous one (which ended the Ice Age), and extinction of woolly mammoths. H. Turtledove penned a beautiful short story about the dangers of global warming through the eyes of a prehistoric man - I will post the link if I'll find it online.

[cold comfort]

Great reply- love the quote too. Just finished Ian Wisharts "Aircon" Excellent counterargument to the Global Warming disciples. Too many to list but compelling argument to question the official line. Already the long suffering taxpayer is being set up to subsidise this ludicrous ETS. When companies like Enron are prepared to spend millions lobbying in support of such, one has to question whos getting screwed. Al Gores famous hockey stick graph (now discredited) which conveniently removed the "middle warming period" (14-16th cent) and the inconvenient evidence rising C02 is actually inversely related to air temp all is reason for deep suspicion.

[Winston001]

When companies like Enron are prepared to spend millions lobbying in support of such, one has to question whos getting screwed.



Enron. That's the evidence for a global conspiracy? Enron? The same company which crashed in spectacular fashion in 2001 - 8 years ago - losing billions? This is the success story for "follow the money"???

[scumdog]

The carbon trading scheme is a crude but useful economic instrument to force people to stop polluting the planet. I'm not convinced NZ is fairly treated under it.

Damn tootin' right - I bet China, India etc who don't give a fat-rats-arse about 'carbon credits', the Kyoto Protocol and pollution in general don't have any penalties inflicted on THEM!

PS: I gotta whole barn load of 'carbon-credits' for sale, mint condition, low-mileage, desireable colours and ready for use.
PM me for prices....:devil2:

[oldrider]

Welcome home Winston001, rested refreshed and (obviously) fighting fit! :first: Cheers Winston, good to see you back in the saddle, as it were!

[Skyryder]

For those that have read Wisharts AIRCON the following link might be of interest.

http://hot-topic.co.nz/somethin%E2%80%99-stupid/

I have not read his book so can not give an opinion on the credibility of the critique of the link or not.

Crazy Ol' Ian Wishart

There's a very amusing blog-exchange going on between Gareth Renowden of climate blog Hot Topic and Ian Wishart of independent current affairs mag Investigate. It's on the subject of Wishart's new book "Con Air", about how global warming is an unscientific fraud. Renowden tore it to shreds in a review, and predictably Wishart responded; Renowden decided it was simpler not to engage with his nonsense, which got another Wishart response. So Renowden proceeded to dismantle Wishart's claims, picked up another Wishart response, and then shot that one by showing the research Wishart was talking about actually meant the opposite of what he thought it did.

from

http://www.additiverich.com/morgue/archives/002894.html


There's a fair bit of stuff with all this.

Skyryder

[Pixie]

I just want the climate to stay the way it's always been :weep::crybaby:

[Pixie]

I wonder, why did they re-brand "global warming" into "climate change". To every man with more than one brain cell it must be pretty obvious that global warming sucks. Just think about it - people have caused global warming once and now all wooly mammoths are gone...
Wrong! The Diplodoci caused Global Cooling and the climate is just getting back to normal after 200,000,000 years

[SPORK]

On the subject of resource consumption, overpopulation and environmental damage - I encourage people to pick up the latest (?) copy of National Geographic. Very informative and provoking.

[Beemer]

This shot of the Tararuas was taken on Wednesday - so much for spring! The air temperature is pretty cold but it's lovely in the sun.

[Jantar]

For those that have read Wisharts AIRCON the following link might be of interest.

http://hot-topic.co.nz/somethin%E2%80%99-stupid/

I have not read his book so can not give an opinion on the credibility of the critique of the link or not.

Crazy Ol' Ian Wishart

There's a very amusing blog-exchange going on between Gareth Renowden of climate blog Hot Topic and Ian Wishart of independent current affairs mag Investigate. It's on the subject of Wishart's new book "Con Air", about how global warming is an unscientific fraud. Renowden tore it to shreds in a review, and predictably Wishart responded; Renowden decided it was simpler not to engage with his nonsense, which got another Wishart response. So Renowden proceeded to dismantle Wishart's claims, picked up another Wishart response, and then shot that one by showing the research Wishart was talking about actually meant the opposite of what he thought it did.

from

http://www.additiverich.com/morgue/archives/002894.html


There's a fair bit of stuff with all this.

Skyryder
I have browsed both of those links, and neither of them successfully debate the science they quote from AirCon. Like you I haven't yet read AirCon as I have just been reviewing a book on the other side of the fence, Melting Point.

However the Blog and Hot Topic both appear to say "AirCon claims xxxxxx. but we know yyyyyyy, so AirCon must be wrong"

As an example:


In his discussion of solar effects and why he thinks they dominate, for example, he latches onto the fact that as the planet warms out of an ice age CO2 rises lag behind the initial temperature increase. This leads him to the following amazing paragraph (p86):

So much for the popular theory that CO2 levels increase first, then warming. All of this is vital in identifying the culprit behind the current warm period. If these two studies are to be believed, then it’s conceivable that the Earth is currently heating as direct result of the sun’s warmth during the Medieval Warm Period in AD1000. Jump ahead 800 years, and the planet starts to warm up around 1850, a warming trend that continues into the present.
This statement betrays such supreme ignorance of climate basics ..... etc
Unfortuantely for Hot Topic the science has shown that CO2 changes do lag major temperature changes by around 800 years.

Then there is:
He denigrates Michael Mann and James Hansen, but accepts the “work” of Monckton
Even the IPCC no longer accept Mann's work as genuine, and they have dropped all references to the Mann hockey stick studies.

I shall read AirCon next month, but shall be suprised if I find anything new in there.

[vtec]

Enron. That's the evidence for a global conspiracy? Enron? The same company which crashed in spectacular fashion in 2001 - 8 years ago - losing billions? This is the success story for "follow the money"???

He's actually got a point, Enron operated on trading bubbles fraudulently inflated and deflated when suitable, making a lot of money. A carbon credit scheme is being pushed by some for similar purposes. I had a dvd that I bought in melbourne about the whole Enron debacle. And I see similar behaviour in a lot of the banking institutions mostly in the US.

From buying political power, to inflating and deflating financial instrument bubbles. The carbon credit scheme was designed to replace the credit derivative bubble when it burst, but they didn't get it pushed through in time. And hence the failure of the US banking system and economy.

The thing that will cause far more widespread extinctions and drop the energy flux density, (not even taking into account how we are going to replace the oil factor when it runs low) and thus population capacity, of the earth is the coming Ice Age due to Solar energy reduction on earth. Do some research about that, before you start worrying about Anthropological Global Warming.

If it's not Global Warming that you are worried about but rather Climate change, then that makes solving the human causes very difficult, as Climate Change is pretty ambiguous.

[Skyryder]

As an example:


Unfortuantely for Hot Topic the science has shown that CO2 changes do lag major temperature changes by around 800 years.


In the grand scheme of things 800 years is next to zero.

15 million that now that's in another ball park


It has been known that modern-day levels of carbon dioxide are unprecedented over the last 800,000 years, but the finding that modern levels have not been reached in the last 15 million years is new.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091008152242.htm


Skyryder

[Winston001]

Damn tootin' right - I bet China, India etc who don't give a fat-rats-arse about 'carbon credits', the Kyoto Protocol and pollution in general don't have any penalties inflicted on THEM!

:

Mmmm but why should they? The average Indian/Chinese has every right to want a 4wd, plasma TV, more food than they can poke a stick at, and Western levels of healthcare. They aren't going to get it living in slums so they are industrialising as fast as they can. We have done it already so we can't deny the rights of the third world to aim for our standard of living.

[scumdog]

Mmmm but why should they? The average Indian/Chinese has every right to want a 4wd, plasma TV, more food than they can poke a stick at, and Western levels of healthcare. They aren't going to get it living in slums so they are industrialising as fast as they can. We have done it already so we can't deny the rights of the third world to aim for our standard of living.

Eventually they'll be just like us.

"Dose plurry Kiwis are taking a' da work off us":devil2:

[Manxman]

Simple there is no money in being skeptical

Scientists that have signed up to the B.S "global warming is caused by man so we must pay cash swindle"lol.......most of them arent even scientists.

There are higher qualified sceintists that are on the skeptic side in actual fact.

Want truth follow the money.......Al gore is laughing his $$$$ rich arse of

Frickin here, here.

GW = Bollox = Biggest con ever imposed on a gullible populace desperate to see something meaningful happen in their lifetime.

Ref below...

[MisterD]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2009/10/Climatekids.jpg

Linky (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100012752/inconvenient-kids-tell-the-eco-fascists-where-they-can-stick-it/)

[SPORK]

Nice to see some intellig- wait, wrong thread.

[Manxman]

Nice to see some intellig- wait, wrong thread.

Yup, this thread is for unbrainwashed realists only. Move along. :Pokey: