Air-cooled vs liquid-cooled.

[Oakie]

There's an outside chance that I may be buying a new GS500F K7 at $7790. The GS is air cooled and I guess the conventional wisdom is that liquid-cooled bikes are better than air-cooled. Any comments/explanations on this would be welcome.

In case it makes a difference, it is a fairly un-exciting bike for a fairly un-exciting rider so the engine wouldn't be thrashed. Use would be the daily commute (18km each way) and weekend cruising.

Also, any comments on the GS500F from people who have owned one would be welcome.

[James Deuce]

I've yet to see a compelling argument for why air-cooled is worse than liquid-cooled, especially for general road use. For the high constant revs required by racing, water cooling makes sure things with different expansion rates maintain tolerances to avoid things hitting each other.

The GS500 engine will do 200,000kms before you'd look at doing anything to it.

The only reason air-cooled engines are falling out of favour rapidly is noise regulation. No water jacket to help muffle the sound of explosions.

[Grinner]

Temperature wise liquid cooled motors are more stable so the tolerances (distance) between parts can be closer leading eventually to higher compression ratios etc, ie a means of gaining more horse power and reliability.
Nothing wrong with air cooled, if anything they are simpler machine with less to go wrong, ie no water pump, water radiator, hoseing etc
As for the Suzi 500 :niceone:

[Speedo-cop]

The key is packaging - water-cooling allows a more compact unit, while air-cooling has some surface area requirements. This is most beneficial when using 2+ cylinders.

It's fair comment to suggest that a water cooled system would have less extreme temperature fluctuations - but when pushed hard, both air and water cooled systems will stress.

All in all, water cooling allows a tighter package - sometimes this is good - sometimes is doesn't matter - apart from that it will moderate temperature fluctuation up to a point.

Remember, though, at the end, it's all air-cooled anyway.

And think checks and balances.

[Ocean1]

All true. Personally I like a minimum of bits, makes for reliability and, usually, a lighter machine.


I think a lot of the growth in sophistication of bikes can be attributed to marketing, the need for newfangledbling in the battle for sales. Particularly the need to match or better power outputs against the competition's comparable models. And it's true that more revs and more HP can be wrung from a water-cooled beastie than an air cooled, (actually more oil cooled) mill.

The competition's compareable models are, of course, always defined primarily by engine capacity, hence the magic HP/Litre number race. An important consideration, to be sure, if you're constrained in capacity by law or racing regulations. Otherwise it matters not a jot, I'd rather have 100HP from an air cooled thou than a water-cooled 600 for any purpose I'd put a bike to.

Personally I couldn't give a flying fuck what capacity a bike engine is, as long as it produces sufficient useable and reliable power while not compromising overall bike design intent I'm happy. For the moment I'm particularly happy with a relatively unsophisticated and reasonably bulletproof air-cooled 1200, which makes about as much HP as an 800 tourer, or a 600 sprotbike, (if rather a lot more torque).

[Oakie]

All good info thanks.
How about this then? If I had a couple of similar cc bikes, one liquid-cooled and the other air-cooled, and treated them in the same manner (not thrashed, serviced regularly), would you expect them to have about the same lifespan?

[Ocean1]

All good info thanks.
How about this then? If I had a couple of similar cc bikes, one liquid-cooled and the other air-cooled, and treated them in the same manner (not thrashed, serviced regularly), would you expect them to have about the same lifespan?

I think whether a bike's air or water cooled would make less difference to engine life than other variables. Probably true that if both were making similar (moderately high) HP the water cooled one would last longer, simply less amplitude in the expansion cycles. Having said that it's going to be more expensive to maintain, and rebuild.

[dipshit]

I think a lot of the growth in sophistication of bikes can be attributed to marketing,


You'll probably find that a lot of it has to do with stricter emission controls. Fuel injection, tighter tolerances from water cooling etc help engineers overcome problems like cold start emission.

[James Deuce]

You'll probably find that a lot of it has to do with stricter emission controls. Fuel injection, tighter tolerances from water cooling etc help engineers overcome problems like cold start emission.
Nah, improvements in metallurgy have sorted that. It's purely about noise.

[Edbear]

Way back when, I had a T500 Suzuki, a 500cc two-stroke twin with a solid and deserved reputation for reliability. It developed 45hp and was considered quick for its time, though the RD350 Yamaha and the 350 Kawasaki triple could match it and they were both air-cooled two-strokes.

The main issue is the stage of tune, and an unstressed air-cooled engine will be very reliable and long lasting. Water cooling has two advantages and influenced my choice of current bike. Water, (more correctly, liquid), cooling allows tighter tolerances for the reasons others here have given, and a higher state of tune, read -(more hp) for a given engine size.

The other advantage today, is idling in traffic. My previous bike, the '89 GSX-F600 was what Suzuki termed air-oil cooling and for the most part was great, however it could overheat in stop-start, slow traffic conditions whereas the C50T with fuel-injection and liquid-cooling can idle all day and plod along at walking pace with the only consequence a bit of fan-noise at times.

Having said that, I have never heard of a problem with the GS500 and they've been around long enough that if there were any issues they'd be well known. I'd say for what you want, it would be pretty much ideal.

[HornetBoy]

The other advantage today, is idling in traffic. My previous bike, the '89 GSX-F600 was what Suzuki termed air-oil cooling and for the most part was great, however it could overheat in stop-start, slow traffic conditions whereas the C50T with fuel-injection and liquid-cooling can idle all day and plod along at walking pace with the only consequence a bit of fan-noise at times.

yea my katana 600 is an 04 model and air/oil cooled, and i feel my pants getting a little hot at highway speeds ,and i do notice it gets alot hotter than my previous bike,which was a liquid cooled 900 hornet, it really is noticeable when in traffic and around town,sometimes worrying but if suzuki kept it this way it must be alright i figure.

[Bonez]

yea my katana 600 Its a tea pot!!

[HornetBoy]

Its a tea pot!!

yes well in that respect i guess it is lol,ah well tried and true technology non the less

[James Deuce]

My previous bike, the '89 GSX-F600 was what Suzuki termed air-oil cooling and for the most part was great, however it could overheat in stop-start, slow traffic conditions

My '99 GSX600F didn't. The worst bike I've ridden in traffic for heat is an Aprilia RSV-R. Which of course is liquid cooled.

[Spuds1234]

Its a tea pot!!

Does anyone know where the name Teapot came from for the modern crappy looking Katanas?

[James Deuce]

Because they look like teapots. Sheesh.

[AllanB]

If the price is right and you like the bike just go for it - that engine has been around a long time and is well proven.
I believe the main thing you are worried about is the reliability of this engine?

http://gstwin.com/racers_corner.htm

They have been raced a lot overseas!

A google for 'gs500 racing' finds all sort of goodies available!

[HornetBoy]

Does anyone know where the name Teapot came from for the modern crappy looking Katanas?

crappy loooking ? :nono: ,probly the old oil cooled engine and how it gets very hot ... or the bubbly shaped fairiing

[James Deuce]

Nothing to do with the engine, and they don't get hot. I get toastier feet on my liquid cooled Zed than I ever got on the GSX600.

IT'S BECAUSE THEY LOOK LIKE A FREAKING TEAPOT. HAVE YOU PEOPLE NEVER SEEN A PROPER TEAPOT OR SOMETHING?


<img src=http://www.browniepoints.co.nz/catalog/images/Steiner/teapot1.jpg>

<img src=http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photos/2002models/2002-Suzuki-GSX600FKatana.jpg>

[Spuds1234]

Nothing to do with the engine, and they don't get hot. I get toastier feet on my liquid cooled Zed than I ever got on the GSX600.

IT'S BECAUSE THEY LOOK LIKE A FREAKING TEAPOT. HAVE YOU PEOPLE NEVER SEEN A PROPER TEAPOT OR SOMETHING?


<img src=http://www.browniepoints.co.nz/catalog/images/Steiner/teapot1.jpg>

<img src=http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photos/2002models/2002-Suzuki-GSX600FKatana.jpg>


Not at tea pot in that shape.

But when you put it in that light, I suppose your quite right.

[HornetBoy]

Nothing to do with the engine, and they don't get hot. I get toastier feet on my liquid cooled Zed than I ever got on the GSX600.

:laugh: well i can tel you i get very hot legs and boots when rideing mine ..... <_< and its seems to come with the territory of owning one ,mind you its got a stg 1 jet kit and ignition advancer which definitely add to the heat production :shifty:

[Coyote]

XR600 vs XR650?

[xwhatsit]

All good info thanks.
How about this then? If I had a couple of similar cc bikes, one liquid-cooled and the other air-cooled, and treated them in the same manner (not thrashed, serviced regularly), would you expect them to have about the same lifespan?

I'm utterly inexperienced in this regard, but the way I see it (coming from a computing point of view) is that liquid cooling is yet another very complicated subsystem, requiring lots of maintenance, that is prone to failure in many ways. I mean the chance of it failing isn't very high, but there are still many ways it can break down. How many times have you heard of air-cooling fins falling off on a bike?

You hear all the time about the thermostats failing on water cooled bikes, with the potential result of them overheating rather badly in traffic or idling when the fan doesn't switch on. Holed radiator. Leak in the plumbing somewhere. Something else to worry about if the head gasket blows.

When people talk about reliability and toughness, I always think about the consumer dirt bikes (i.e. not strung-out MXers). Single cylinder, drum brakes, spokes, carburettored, and air-cooled.

Of course, it won't go as quick as a liquid-cooled bike I suppose, despite the lighter weight.

[MaxB]

Does anyone know where the name Teapot came from for the modern crappy looking Katanas?

AFAIK the plastic teapot nickname came from the late 80s GSX600F models. There was a white with red trim version that looked like the first plastic kettles and teapots which came out around the same time. Even the slight off white colour was damn near identical.

[Oakie]

If the price is right and you like the bike just go for it - that engine has been around a long time and is well proven.
I believe the main thing you are worried about is the reliability of this engine?
Yep, you got it. Reliability is a big consideration. Horsepower is only slightly more than my 400 as is the weight so I'm expecting performance will be about the same but with a different delivery (2cyl vs 4cyl). Price is certainly good for a brand new bike and hey ... it was Mrs Oakie who suggested I look for a new bike and I wouldn't want to disappoint her would I?


http://gstwin.com/racers_corner.htm

They have been raced a lot overseas!

A google for 'gs500 racing' finds all sort of goodies available!

That was an interesting read. Thanks.

[GSVR]

IT'S BECAUSE THEY LOOK LIKE A FREAKING TEAPOT. HAVE YOU PEOPLE NEVER SEEN A PROPER TEAPOT OR SOMETHING?


<img src=http://www.browniepoints.co.nz/catalog/images/Steiner/teapot1.jpg>


Thats not a teapot thats one of those things you piss in when you can't get out of bed!

[HornetBoy]

AFAIK the plastic teapot nickname came from the late 80s GSX600F models. There was a white with red trim version that looked like the first plastic kettles and teapots which came out around the same time. Even the slight off white colour was damn near identical.

lol :laugh: and there Jim2 was saying it was directed at the late models "crappy" katanas :oi-grr:

[HornetBoy]

Thats not a teapot thats one of those things you piss in when you can't get out of bed!

Bed pan anyone?:pinch:

[FilthyLuka]

Yeah, get the GS, they are really nice bikes. Had a blat on the naked version, had a bit of go and felt really comfortable, didnt so much the upright seating position of the gs500f though, felt too much like an enduro bike, but i guess some urban design (i think) clip on style bars would sort that out...

You can get all sorts of shinies for the gs:

39mm keihin carbs:

http://www.oldbikebarn.com/Street/2005-Suzuki-GS500-F/Keihin-39mm-CR-Special-Twins-Racing-Carburetors_3

Yoshimuira shinies:

http://www.yoshimura-rd.com/ps-3262-1155-trs-stainlesstitanium-slip-on.aspx

Engine guards are available for about $80 for a set from a place like colemans

Raask rear sets:

http://www.raask.se/fs10.jpg

You can get a 550 big bore/high compression kit from Wisecon and/or JE pistons aswel...

Aww man, it would be way fun to race an old gs500... might have to look into it after the 'blade is all payed off...

Anyone here know what classes a 500 twin is elligible to race in? Forumla 3 obviously but SV's would have a cc advantage no?

Back on topic. Yeah, its a great bike, don't let the air cooling put you off, nothing wrong with a bit of air cooling :-)

denden

[James Deuce]

lol :laugh: and there Jim2 was saying it was directed at the late models "crappy" katanas :oi-grr:

It's the same bike.

It's directed at the entire line of GSX600/750F's.

You might actually try reading some history sometime and you'll see that an entire industry ahas referred to them as teapots for their entire history.

It doesn't all start with you, sonny.

http://www.katanatom.co.uk/pagemaker.php?page=teapot

[Big Dave]

Water cooled V air cooled on a road bike - I have one of each - doesn't make any difference.

Less maintenance with Air cooled. One less thing to check.

[Ixion]

Hm. Lez see.

Air cooled :

Fins. Hard to go wrong
Air. Free and universally available

Done

Liquid Cooled

Water jackets. Get blocked up. Corrode
Coolant- expensive glycol mix.
Water pump. Lot and lots of parts. Including bearings and seals
Drive for water pump.
Radiator. Expensive. Fragile. Easy damaged in a crash. Gets blocked
Hoses and clips. Numerous They leak.
Thermostat. Mechanical. Enough said
Temperature sensors. Electronic. Enough said
Temperature gauge.
Overflow tank.
Fan.
Fan controller
Fuses. Anything that uses fuses will go wrong sooner or later.

Other bits I've forgotten .

Which one do you reckon will be the more reliable ?

[rwh]

It's directed at the entire line of GSX600/750F's.


Ah, who cares. They're all still better looking than any of the 'real' katanas :dodge:

The katana reminds me of the Subaru Vortex. I thought it was cool - briefly - in the 80's, but that didn't last ...

Richard

[FilthyLuka]

Hm. Lez see.

Air cooled :

Fins. Hard to go wrong
Air. Free and universally available

Done

Liquid Cooled

Water jackets. Get blocked up. Corrode
Coolant- expensive glycol mix.
Water pump. Lot and lots of parts. Including bearings and seals
Drive for water pump.
Radiator. Expensive. Fragile. Easy damaged in a crash. Gets blocked
Hoses and clips. Numerous They leak.
Thermostat. Mechanical. Enough said
Temperature sensors. Electronic. Enough said
Temperature gauge.
Overflow tank.

Other bits I've forgotten .

Which one do you reckon will be the more reliable ?

HAHA! bling on its way my friend. Probably the best description i've heard yet

[Edbear]

Hm. Lez see.

Air cooled :

Fins. Hard to go wrong
Air. Free and universally available

Done

Liquid Cooled

Water jackets. Get blocked up. Corrode
Coolant- expensive glycol mix.
Water pump. Lot and lots of parts. Including bearings and seals
Drive for water pump.
Radiator. Expensive. Fragile. Easy damaged in a crash. Gets blocked
Hoses and clips. Numerous They leak.
Thermostat. Mechanical. Enough said
Temperature sensors. Electronic. Enough said
Temperature gauge.
Overflow tank.
Fan.
Fan controller
Fuses. Anything that uses fuses will go wrong sooner or later.

Other bits I've forgotten .

Which one do you reckon will be the more reliable ?



Oh, well! I guess I'll just have to put up with it...:confused:

[limbimtimwim]

When people talk about reliability and toughness, I always think about the consumer dirt bikes (i.e. not strung-out MXers). Single cylinder, drum brakes, spokes, carburettored, and air-cooled.They arn't anymore. Honda CRF250X/450X*, Yamaha WR450, Suzuki DR-Z450. And no drums to be seen either. Ick! Begone.

The DR-Z is pretty durable, I gave mine a good solid chuck at the ground and then into some tyres and it was fine. On the same day I watched a WR400 hit the tarmac at least half a dozen times and it was fine too. I'm not saying they are more durable, but they are not fragile babies either.

And why am I on KB on this nice day? I got sunburnt yesterday and should give my face a chance to recover. Damnit.

* Apparently these two are pretty highly strung.

[Oakie]

Hm. Lez see.

Air cooled :

Fins. Hard to go wrong
Air. Free and universally available

Done

Liquid Cooled

Water jackets. Get blocked up. Corrode
Coolant- expensive glycol mix.
Water pump. Lot and lots of parts. Including bearings and seals
Drive for water pump.
Radiator. Expensive. Fragile. Easy damaged in a crash. Gets blocked
Hoses and clips. Numerous They leak.
Thermostat. Mechanical. Enough said
Temperature sensors. Electronic. Enough said
Temperature gauge.
Overflow tank.
Fan.
Fan controller
Fuses. Anything that uses fuses will go wrong sooner or later.

Other bits I've forgotten .

Which one do you reckon will be the more reliable ?

Well if you put it that way! Cheers for that. :clap:

[SPman]

At a WIMA rally, some years ago, a KZ440 motor was tortured to attempted death! Similar to a GS400/450/500 motor and aircooled. Said motor was run til it seized! Cooled down and - hey presto, fired up and ran again, glowing redder and redder, for tens of minutes, until it seized again. This happened several times until people got tired of the "sport" and wandered off.I think the motor was eventually killed, but it took some effort to do so.
I just don't think a water cooled motor would last as long......

[Bonez]

Water cooled bikes can't be too bad. My CX is still going strong, albeit with "quirks", after 29 years of abuse and neglet. Prefer air cooled m/c myself though for the reasons Ixion has pointed out. I do note he didn't include fuses in the air cooled list though or stators, windings, ignition units, wiring etc etc etc.

[Motu]

Amen to what Ixion says....and as Speedo-cop pointed out they are all air cooled anyway,the correct term for a liquid cooled engine is indirect air cooled.So all that crap to get the heat to the air,and if any one of the components in the chain doesn't do it's job then the plan doesn't work and it over heats.Direct air cooled is as simple as it gets.

[Big Dave]

Fins. Hard to go wrong


Ariel Square 4.

And any 'non-transverse' multi cylinder engine.

[Big Dave]

At a WIMA rally,

What.....the.......fuck.......?

[Motu]

And any 'non-transverse' multi cylinder engine.

Like a V twin? The rear cyls run hotter than the front,but not enough to really worry about.Get a non contact thermometer and check temps on some of the bikes you get to ride.....nothing like finding out what is really happening.And yes,that's what I do,the Raytec fits nicely in my jacket pocket.

[Big Dave]

Like a V twin?

I meant like douglas, Indians and multis warping the heads.

V-twins is vtwinsah

[avgas]

tomato, tomaeto
i like both,
oil/air seems to be the best combo to me - if you get a decent oil cooler system it essentially is the same as water cooled.
Good thoery i use is this:
1-100k's air is superior, 100-1000k water is superior. If you do any more than 1000k's in a day it doesnt matter what you ride. You are the weakest link.

[SPman]

What.....the.......fuck.......?

I get around............

:msn-wink:

[Motu]

All engines are oil cooled,the most important job of oil is heat transfer - run an engine without oil and some components will seize.What happens when two metal components seize is that the two parts overheat and melt.But some engines are designed to use the oil for more of it's heat transfer ability.

Actualy oil is not as good as water for heat transfer - heat an iron bar to red heat and quench it in water for 10 seconds,then grab the hot end.Now try the same quenching in oil.....you'll burn your hand for sure,it doesn't transfer the heat to the liquid as fast.But that slower heat transfer is more controllable and is used with good effect in heat treatments.

[McJim]

We have 2 air cooled bikes in the garage. 1997 Ducati 600ss & 2006 Suzuki GSX750F.

No complaints.

[Big Dave]

I get around............

:msn-wink:

In a Tutu.

[limbimtimwim]

The rear cyls run hotter than the front,but not enough to really worry about.Tell that to Erik Buell!

WHOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH goes the Buell switched off at the top of a hill.

Hey that rhymes.

[xwhatsit]

Kind of related.

Still trying to get to the bottom of my 250RS hot-starting-of-doom and `what's an idle?' situation.

What sort of temp would be normal for an air-cooled bike? I want to measure how hot it's getting and see if overheating is the problem.

[Motu]

Tell that to Erik Buell!


Some V twins,eg Honda - use different cam and ign timing,also different carb jetting for the rear cyl to compensate for the hotter running......or does the front cyl have different timing and mixture because it runs cooler? Any way,the makers know about these sort of things and do these little tricks without telling us.....get your cams and carbs mixed up and it'll run not just right.

[Big Dave]

Tell that to Erik Buell!

WHOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH goes the Buell switched off at the top of a hill.

Hey that rhymes.

They don't have to be switched off. Some pussies grizzle about it too. 'ooooh it's got a fan.'

It doesn't bother me at all - I see it as better than boiling the oil - and the mass centralisation works so well that it's a small price to pay for the rear cylinder being enclosed.

The Rune and the Concours have similar fans.

I have an interview with Erik coming up in February - anything else you'd like passed on?

Imagine a very large man in black leather and

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VQauQ6f72Zk&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VQauQ6f72Zk&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[limbimtimwim]

They don't have to be switched off. Some pussies grizzle about it too. 'ooooh it's got a fan.'I don't think it's bad. It was just pointing out that Buell cared enough to have the fan run when the engine was switched off.

Hey you own one, does the fan go with the kill switch in the off position?

When you do interview Erik, thank him for making bikes people argue about.

[limbimtimwim]

Some V twins,eg Honda - use different cam and ign timing,also different carb jetting for the rear cyl to compensate for the hotter running......or does the front cyl have different timing and mixture because it runs cooler? Any way,the makers know about these sort of things and do these little tricks without telling us.....get your cams and carbs mixed up and it'll run not just right.Going off topic a bit 'ere, but the suggested mains for the jet kit in my nc35 put the leanest jet in the left rear cylinder. You'd think that'd be the hottest cylinder, so why stick the leanest jet in it? Seems to work just fine though.

[Ocean1]

I have an interview with Erik coming up in February - anything else you'd like passed on?

Yes.

Ask him why the 1125r has to look like the bastard get of prince charles and an F16.

[Big Dave]

I don't think it's bad. It was just pointing out that Buell cared enough to have the fan run when the engine was switched off.

Hey you own one, does the fan go with the kill switch in the off position?

When you do interview Erik, thank him for making bikes people argue about.

I wasn't finger wagging. just sayin'

[Big Dave]

Yes.

Ask him why the 1125r has to look like the bastard get of prince charles and an F16.


I have 4 prints done as samples at the moment.
4 people who's opinions I respect like a different one best.

' When you do interview Erik, thank him for making bikes people argue about.'

Genius.

[limbimtimwim]

Yes.Ask him why the 1125r has to look like the bastard get of prince charles and an F16.As I have read in a print publication of late, the new thing is only the first thing to be based on that engine and chassis. I guess there will be more laid back 1125 (1125S ?) missing the scoops and a more powerful one with all the trimmings (1199YCAISE (You Can't Afford It Special Edition) ?) in a couple of years to have a stab at superbike.


' When you do interview Erik, thank him for making bikes people argue about.' Genius.I'm quite serious. If Buell were to go away all of a sudden things would be less interesting.

Discussing music the other evening it was mentioned the proof of a good band was that another band might mention as an influence or make nod towards the other. I think it is fair to say that without Buell the SuperDuke, Yam MT-01, HyperMotard or maybe even the R1200S might not exist. Maybe, or maybe not, Buell broke ground for the others in this regard.

Anyway, way off topic. I'm off to drink some glycol to prove it's environmentally friendly really and all that stuff about it being poison isn't true.

[Big Dave]

I'm quite serious. If Buell were to go away all of a sudden things would be less interesting.



Yeah - I meant it.
Genius statement. Nailed it in one...........dopey.

[Ixion]

Kind of related.

Still trying to get to the bottom of my 250RS hot-starting-of-doom and `what's an idle?' situation.

What sort of temp would be normal for an air-cooled bike? I want to measure how hot it's getting and see if overheating is the problem.


That is difficult to answer, because the question would be "how hot where ?"
There will , for instnce, be a great difference in temperature between the area adjacent to the exhaust valves and that adjacent to the inlets . To affect starting , the important temperature would doubtless be that of the carurettor. Manufacturers often make inlet manifolds from some phenolic substance that does not conduct heat. Is yours such?

Perhaps you could measure your bike and another aircooled model (say, the ffwabbitt) and compare them? An even better test might be the temperature of the carburettor float bowl.

[xwhatsit]

I do get hot nuts.

Seen funny little carburettor spacers on Yahoo Japan Auctions.

Stator, coil, CDI will all be inspected over hols.

[scumdog]

Tell that to Erik Buell!

WHOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH goes the Buell switched off at the top of a hill.

Hey that rhymes.


And some of the 'bagger' Harleys have a system that kills the ignition to the rear cylinder when idling in heavy traffic and things get hot..

[Big Dave]

And some of the 'bagger' Harleys have a system that kills the ignition to the rear cylinder when idling in heavy traffic and things get hot..

And opens the exhaust valve.
Fitted on the Police Bikes that do parade work I hears

[Ocean1]

As I have read in a print publication of late, the new thing is only the first thing to be based on that engine and chassis. I guess there will be more laid back 1125 (1125S ?) missing the scoops and a more powerful one with all the trimmings (1199YCAISE (You Can't Afford It Special Edition) ?) in a couple of years to have a stab at superbike.

"Informed speculation" suggests the 1125R is a direct replacement for the XB12R, but that the XB12S, X etc will remain in production for some time.

1125 to 1199 ain't a big jump, but still not an easy proposition for a narrow angle V twin unless you're stroking it too. That may make it less than ideal for a racing engine. I understand that Buell's design criteria for the Rotax were based 100% on the need for a market-competitive sprotbike. The fact that the capacity was apparently defined with only that in mind seems to be seen as proof they're not interested in racing them. It doesn't rule out a superbike variant, but it may well make a competitive one a big ask.

[Forest]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the issue of engine noise.

In my experience, air-cooled motors produce more mechanical noise than liquid-cooled motors. They constantly rattle, clunk, and plink.

I've noticed the same thing with cars. Just listen to a VW Beetle or Kombi.

[Ixion]

Mr Jim2 made that point earlier. It is true. Devoid of a sound deadening water jacket (and with fins to add resonance), air cooled motors will always be noiser than water cooled ones. Whether that is a problem is largely in the ears of the auditor I guess.

[Ocean1]

Mr Jim2 made that point earlier.

He did.

And you've just reminded me that early Suzukis (TS250 for one) had rubber chocks wedged in the fins to shut them up a bit. Didn't seem to make any discernable difference when they were taken out though.

[imdying]

The reality is that it's not worth worrying about... as far as reliabilty is concerned, water cooling has proven sufficiently reliable that after a billion odd cars produced, they're still using it.

[McJim]

Mr Jim2 made that point earlier. It is true. Devoid of a sound deadening water jacket (and with fins to add resonance), air cooled motors will always be noiser than water cooled ones. Whether that is a problem is largely in the ears of the auditor I guess.

My little Duc doesn't make noise....it makes music. :yes:

[Big Dave]

My little Duc doesn't make noise....it makes music. :yes:

Shame it's all percussion.

[FilthyLuka]

Shame it's all percussion.

badum psch

[Forest]

Mr Jim2 made that point earlier. It is true. Devoid of a sound deadening water jacket (and with fins to add resonance), air cooled motors will always be noiser than water cooled ones. Whether that is a problem is largely in the ears of the auditor I guess.

Whoops - I missed that somebody else had mentioned it.

[lanci]

Who cares about reliability when air-cooled sounds so fucking good!

[avgas]

Actualy oil is not as good as water for heat transfer - heat an iron bar to red heat and quench it in water for 10 seconds,then grab the hot end.Now try the same quenching in oil.....you'll burn your hand for sure,it doesn't transfer the heat to the liquid as fast.But that slower heat transfer is more controllable and is used with good effect in heat treatments.
Yes but try making decent fins to work on a water cooled bike. Also water cooled bikes are only as good as the pump (in most bikes water pump = bad quality as you know), oil convection cooling only fails when the law of physics fail.
Also worst case scenario, drill a hole in a component in a water cooled engine, then do the same in a oil cooled. In the water cooled one components (usually alloy) desintergrate.
However you do raise the good point, working on a nicely polished oil cooled bike is like as dangerous as lifting pots off a stove. If its hot you soon learn how hot.

[avgas]

The reality is that it's not worth worrying about... as far as reliabilty is concerned, water cooling has proven sufficiently reliable that after a billion odd cars produced, they're still using it.
In all honesty i can both dissagree, in an enclosed space water cooling is the best thing since sliced bread.
But air cooling in its defence did not get a fair trial - the classic i can think of it the VW. How effective would a harley be if the Engine was sheilded behind a big wall and go no air?
From electrical cooling perspective, they use both (well oils instead of water obviously), but still a great number of electrical cooling paths a air and work well.
Its one of those annoying things where time will tell. Lets see the ratio of GSXR1000's vs GSXR1100's in 50 years time.
As for me, i think both have disadvantages - i'll ride either.

[Ixion]

Yes but try making decent fins to work on a water cooled bike. Also water cooled bikes are only as good as the pump (in most bikes water pump = bad quality as you know), oil convection cooling only fails when the law of physics fail.


I never trust those things. Look how many bikes break the speeding laws. Stands to reason some of them will break the physics laws too.

[Forest]

In all honesty i can both dissagree, in an enclosed space water cooling is the best thing since sliced bread.
But air cooling in its defence did not get a fair trial - the classic i can think of it the VW. How effective would a harley be if the Engine was sheilded behind a big wall and go no air?
From electrical cooling perspective, they use both (well oils instead of water obviously), but still a great number of electrical cooling paths a air and work well.
Its one of those annoying things where time will tell. Lets see the ratio of GSXR1000's vs GSXR1100's in 50 years time.
As for me, i think both have disadvantages - i'll ride either.


The VW engines rely on big rubber seals to form an air box for the cooling system.

Works great until the rubber bits start to perish.

[Timber020]

In all honesty i can both dissagree, in an enclosed space water cooling is the best thing since sliced bread.
But air cooling in its defence did not get a fair trial - the classic i can think of it the VW. How effective would a harley be if the Engine was sheilded behind a big wall and go no air?
From electrical cooling perspective, they use both (well oils instead of water obviously), but still a great number of electrical cooling paths a air and work well.
Its one of those annoying things where time will tell. Lets see the ratio of GSXR1000's vs GSXR1100's in 50 years time.
As for me, i think both have disadvantages - i'll ride either.

The VW had something like 65 years of fair trial, and its times since gone. Its past technology, and better things are now here.

In 50 years your going to be more likely to find a working typewriter than a 2008 pc, but its hardly a reflection of which is better. Simplicity is a big advantage when it comes to long term longevity, an axe vs a chainsaw, gramaphone vs a cd stacker stereo.
But we cant live in a world based on nostalgia, there will always be people that wish we still made mk3 cortinas, 1932 indians or p51 mustangs.
Liquid cooling is the better technology, its so common because it works so much better than the alternatives.
The GSXR's left oil cooling when it proved to be holding it back in developing a better machine. If they had stuck to the simpler technology they would have been left behind, much like an American motorcycle company which is now being dragged kicking and screaming, along with its customers, to the realities of evolution and modern times. (water cooling coming real soon to a Harley near you)

[scumdog]

(water cooling coming real soon to a Harley near you)

Not in MY gargre sunshine but yeah, I know they're on their way, noise and air pollution regulations are too hard to meet with an air-cooled engine.

[Edbear]

The VW had something like 65 years of fair trial, and its times since gone. Its past technology, and better things are now here.

In 50 years your going to be more likely to find a working typewriter than a 2008 pc, but its hardly a reflection of which is better. Simplicity is a big advantage when it comes to long term longevity, an axe vs a chainsaw, gramaphone vs a cd stacker stereo.
But we cant live in a world based on nostalgia, there will always be people that wish we still made mk3 cortinas, 1932 indians or p51 mustangs.
Liquid cooling is the better technology, its so common because it works so much better than the alternatives.
The GSXR's left oil cooling when it proved to be holding it back in developing a better machine. If they had stuck to the simpler technology they would have been left behind, much like an American motorcycle company which is now being dragged kicking and screaming, along with its customers, to the realities of evolution and modern times. (water cooling coming real soon to a Harley near you)


Unfortunately, nostalgia ain't what it used to be! Well put! As much as we may like simplicity it won't last forever.

[Ixion]

That is a good point. The increasingly onerous emission rules are easier to meet with a water cooled engine, simply because the engine temperature can be held fairly much constant, whereas an air cooled engine, the temperature will go up and down like mad. When designers are struggling to meet the rules, one less variable to have to deal with is a big thing. Air cooled engines CAN meet emission standards, but it's harder.

[Coyote]

And you've just reminded me that early Suzukis (TS250 for one) had rubber chocks wedged in the fins to shut them up a bit. Didn't seem to make any discernable difference when they were taken out though.
So that's what they're for! I've always wondered that after seeing a few bikes with them. They look dorky

[Coyote]

So are Buells reliable being air cooled, or are they not up to par with the Japanese yet?

Pretty keen on a XB12 S or R if I could ever afford it. Yet to test ride one though, was keen on a Monster till I had a go on one.

[xwhatsit]

whereas an air cooled engine, the temperature will go up and down like mad.

They also require a richer mix, right? Which would mean more unburnt fuel and gas out the exhaust.

[Ixion]

Traditionally, yes. Though the richer mix requirment is basically just because they can get honking hot. Lean mixture plus hot = BadThingsHappen.

But, modern air cooled engines have tackled this. For instance the new Lean Burn Enfields.

[Motu]

There are plenty of air cooled engines out there doing the hard hards in the industrial and agricultural worlds,working for their living,not as some playboy's toy.And I'm not talking lawnmowers,although they are a good example of KISS.When they have to run constant hours in cold,heat,dust with zero maintenance,forced air cooling has been proved to be cost effective....and being cost effective is how you run a business.I don't know if Duetz still do air cooled diesels,but they were top of the line,and very quiet too.

It's all funneling into emissions and ecconomy - if they won't fit through the small round hole,then they drop to the floor as failures.Doesn't mean they were bad designs....it's just that they ''failed to meet objectives''.

[Ocean1]

So are Buells reliable being air cooled, or are they not up to par with the Japanese yet?

They're forced-air cooled, a rather large fan, (thermostatically speed controled) means there's always an airflow appropriate to cooling requirements. On mine it seems never to run at cruising speeds, it often kicks in at low speed at the lights and usually at high speed for a minute when you shut down.

It's probably as accurate as you'll get with air cooling. Cooling is really an issue linked to energy output and combustion efficiencies, if you want maximum HP from any given displacement you're probably going to need liquid cooling because there's limits to the cooling surface area you can build into a small engine. It used to be common to riddle the fins of air-cooled bikes with holes, to up the surface area to help deal with extra HP. If, however, displacement is irrelevant then extra capacity is a good way to make power, and then the advantages of air cooling make sense, (at least to me).

At 100hp odd the Buell's reasonably low stressed compared to the big water cooled in-line 4s, but it does make at least the same torque, and that from very low revs. For me that engine is part of a package that's almost uniquely suitable for medium-speed performance. Fun at legal speeds, (or at least non-walk-home speeds) is important. I don't think the XB12 compares badly to the liquid cooled alternatives with regard to life expectancy.

[Coyote]

At 100hp odd the Buell's reasonably low stressed compared to the big water cooled in-line 4s, but it does make at least the same torque, and that from very low revs. For me that engine is part of a package that's almost uniquely suitable for medium-speed performance. Fun at legal speeds, (or at least non-walk-home speeds) is important. I don't think the XB12 compares badly to the liquid cooled alternatives with regard to life expectancy.
Sounds good. Worth taking one out for a test ride then.

I've started to value reliability a bit more than performance now after dealing with a less than reliable watercooled V4. I'm looking at getting an XR650 since of their rep for being bulletproof plus it backfires like a shotgun and wheelies easily :D

My Dad values reliability and had an XR500 when he was my age.... I'm turning into him :crazy:

[xwhatsit]

XR500

Lmao, because that's the most reliable engine ever produced :lol:

All the issues with the XL250S/250RS motor, but twice the capacity!


The drilling of holes in fins interests me. I would've thought this would reduce heat transfer from the bore/head outwards?

[FilthyLuka]

The drilling of holes in fins interests me. I would've thought this would reduce heat transfer from the bore/head outwards?

hmm, im thinking the same thing.

Sure it would increase surface area exposed to air, but wont it also make hot spots on the cooling fins where there is less area for heat to be transferred?

Don't think its something i will try any time soon

[Ocean1]

The drilling of holes in fins interests me. I would've thought this would reduce heat transfer from the bore/head outwards?


hmm, im thinking the same thing.

Sure it would increase surface area exposed to air, but wont it also make hot spots on the cooling fins where there is less area for heat to be transferred?

Don't think its something i will try any time soon

Casting technology has moved on since that trick was common. The shape and number of fins used to be more basic and limited than is currently possible. And yes, there's a balance to be got between maximising cross sectional area of the fins to maximise heat transfer and actual surface area in contact with the air to dissipate it.

Still, because the power available from any given engine is ultimately limited by head and upper cylinder cooling it was worth improving that cooling. It was this fact that led Porsche to develop nikasil plated alloy cylinders, without which they would never have got the power they did from an air cooled engine.

That’s also what drove the shotgunning of bike fins. I don’t have pic’s, but the work that went into some of the more extreme examples was rather intricate, including welding in extra fins or extensions and bead blasting the lot to further increase surface area. At one stage I made several heads for a TM125 that looked more like the huge fins Maico used. It worked, but they broke a lot.

Again, if displacement isn't constrained why bother chasing hp/cc? Just make the bangs bigger, more useable and more reliable.

[Coyote]

Lmao, because that's the most reliable engine ever produced :lol:

All the issues with the XL250S/250RS motor, but twice the capacity!
It wasn't?! :p

I'm not sure what truely is the most reliable bike ever, I was told VFR's were and mine is making liars out of those people. I would've thought the XR500 was a pretty solid machine after all the XR rep I've heard before

[Ixion]

Maggots. They're indestructable.

[xwhatsit]

Casting technology has moved on since that trick was common. The shape and number of fins used to be more basic and limited than is currently possible.
That's interesting, I was thinking the other day that my motor has few fins, and relatively small at that, compared to many older 1960s thumpers. Leong's DRZ250 today was similar. The Honda RC166 racebikes had some serious finnage. Close together, too.

It wasn't?! :p
Haha, not one of the best motors they build. Top-end waaaay under-engineered, camshaft runs in the head. Rocker arms wear and the pivots they swing on mangle the rubber seals that keeps the rocker cover oil-tight. Eat pistons. Not sure if the head cracks like on the 250s, but wouldn't be surprised as it's a similar design, but with even bigger valves (even thinner bit between spark-plug and exhaust valve then). Would've run well `in the day', but longevity not good perhaps.

Maggots. They're indestructable.
Not true. Stick Guzzi tank badges on one and ride it to a Guzzi rally.

BTW: CX500 is water-cooled :yes:

[Motu]

Fins can only reach a certain size - the heat transfers from root to tip,and making them longer has diminishing returns as you can't speed up the transfer rate.If you look at bikes from the late '40's on you will see the fins got bigger and bigger,then they went to alloy heads,and the fins started bigger again.If you look at the specs of these bikes you will see the compression ratios increasing to match the increase in cooling area.....and this directly relates to fuel octane rating.As the fuels got better the engines could run higher compression ratios,meaning they ran hotter and needed more cooling.

The Honda singles weren't bullet proof - they suffered horrendous top end wear,camshafts,rockers and cyl heads.The Yamaha XT/TT 500 was a step ahead as there were practically no plain bearings in the engine - even the rocker shafts had needle rollers.The magic cure was superior oils.

[Coyote]

Haha, not one of the best motors they build. Top-end waaaay under-engineered, camshaft runs in the head. Rocker arms wear and the pivots they swing on mangle the rubber seals that keeps the rocker cover oil-tight. Eat pistons. Not sure if the head cracks like on the 250s, but wouldn't be surprised as it's a similar design, but with even bigger valves (even thinner bit between spark-plug and exhaust valve then). Would've run well `in the day', but longevity not good perhaps.

Haha, very interesting. My Dad didn't get to find that out since it got stolen. The insurance company paid him in full, but unfortunatly Honda bumped the prices up so he could only afford a new 250.

He loved that bike and the 250 was a disappointment after the 500. But he was kinda pleased to here that he may have dodged a bullet :p Didn't hear of any heads cracking.

[Oakie]

All very interesting stuff guys. Thanks. Now another question.
What are the implications for oil changes and type of oil used in an air-cooled vs liquid cooled engine given that there's more heat involved?
Different grade of oil?
More frequent changes?

[avgas]

I never trust those things. Look how many bikes break the speeding laws. Stands to reason some of them will break the physics laws too.
I reckon, i thought i broke them tonight in my hotel in Kyoto. Flushed the toilet and the bloody thing tried to blast me - What the fuck is a Bidet!!!! lol

[avgas]

Maggots. They're indestructable.
You must spread the love before giving more to Ixion........ but well done that man. Didn't CZ's run on maggot power - looked and sounded like it.