Suicide stories [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

Colapop

7th January 2008, 07:02

Suicide is not a pretty subject. It cuts damn deep with some (myself included) but it needs to be spoken of.

Taking a deep breath I'll tell you how I felt (some time ago) when I attempted to take my life. Not so much about the how but more the why.

I'd spent my life under the control of a very disciplinarian man. I still don't consider the hidings to be abuse but by modern standards he would be in jail - for a lengthy period. I used to say that I was a difficult child but I've found that I was a product of my environment. I finally (at age 16) left home and started living my own life. But I failed. I had job after job, couldn't keep a relationship, incurred massive debt, without mentioning drink and drugs. I had no control at all. So at about 17/18 I joined the Army. It was great sorted my life out and all was absolutely 'fantastic'. And I was never so lonely in my life. I didn't really have anything sorted at all. All I really wanted was my family. I couldn't tell them though coz everything was going well. Nobody to care for, nobody cared for me (in my mind) so what fucking difference would it make to the world if I wasn't here?

I had a bottle of Valium and half a bottle of Gin. I thought I'd just drift off and that'd be it. I woke up in hospital. A tube down my throat and my wrists in restraint. One of the lads had seen me wandering off with the Gin and came looking for me...

The prologue? Counselling, family, mates, all came and helped me. The guys from the barracks used to come and just sit in my room. I bounced back, that was a long time ago, but the memory is still crystal clear. But as I said, that was a long time ago.

My greatest fear is that my children ever consider suicide to be an option. I talk to them and encourage them to be open and honest with me. I try not to judge their comments or questions and show them I love them.

Conquiztador

7th January 2008, 07:08

If you are serious and there is issues in your life or in the life of someone you know SPINZ is a good start: http://www.spinz.org.nz/page.php?p=27

Other sites with helpful info and contacts are:
ReachOut: http://reachout.com.au/default.asp?ti=1861&gclid=CIvty8ml4pACFSakiQodMiurPQ
Ministery of Health: http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/indexmh/suicideprevetion-support
SOSAD: http://www.wordworx.co.nz/sosad.html

If there is someone that is in crisis that you know, don't think about it. Act now. To have someone to talk to is a good start. Isolation is the pits!

All the best.

scumdog

7th January 2008, 07:15

Been to/seen plenty...

Some of the reasons for doing so were pathetic

Some were 'damaged goods' and it was only a matter of time.

When looking at the corpse on the slab all I often think of was "there's a guy in a wheelchair somewhere who would love to have a body as good as that - and you had one and wasted it"

At the end of the day it was their choice - but the family/friends live on, mentally torturing themselves thinking 'why?' and "what if" and "if only I had done xxx".

Oh, and there's no 'other side' despite what younger ones think, you kill yourself? - your DEAD, that's it. End of story, full stop.

KATWYN

7th January 2008, 07:23

Must spread some rep etc...

Waow Colapop you are a fine example of strength and proving that getting out of that black hole is possible.:yes:

Well done. It is nice to hear this kinda story.

Joni

7th January 2008, 07:30

Some people here have had to clean up the mess of attempted and/or successful suicide, and had to live with the loss of a loved oneIndeed.... so have I.

Not a great choice of topic in the least.

Her_C4

7th January 2008, 08:05

Huh?

Are you confusing suicide with entertainment?
Some people here have had to clean up the mess of attempted and/or successful suicide, and had to live with the loss of a loved one (myself included).
Step carefully.

I suggest Very carefully

Been to/seen plenty...

Some of the reasons for doing so were pathetic

Some were 'damaged goods' and it was only a matter of time.

When looking at the corpse on the slab all I often think of was "there's a guy in a wheelchair somewhere who would love to have a body as good as that - and you had one and wasted it"

At the end of the day it was their choice - but the family/friends live on, mentally torturing themselves thinking 'why?' and "what if" and "if only I had done xxx".

Oh, and there's no 'other side' despite what younger ones think, you kill yourself? - your DEAD, that's it. End of story, full stop.

Ditto - gals and guys

Indeed.... so have I.

Not a great choice of topic in the least.

Agreed - this subject is sure to bring a lot of emotions to the fore. Many many many people have been / are impacted and their lives shattered when someone decides to take their own life.

Colapop - thank you for your honesty.

trump-lady

7th January 2008, 08:12

I watched a doc last night about a website. Anyways its called ASH ALT.SUICIDE.HOLIDAY. Anyway a young man advertised he wanted a partner to commit suicide with. A young girl replied and flew to meet him and one week later they jumped off a cliff. People from the site were questioned and called the site a means to vent, talk and be understood and that ASH was not about promoting suicide. Anyways I personally havent been affected by a suicide however think its very selfish. I have also never contemplated it myself so I dont think I can ever comprehend how much pain is involved to come to that decision.

http://http://ashbusstop.org/home.html

Ixion

7th January 2008, 08:26

I'm just interested if anyone knows someone who committed suicide. What did they do to kill themselves? Were there signs that they were unhappy or was it something that just happened and the sudden shock was just too much? Did they leave a note? :violin:

Quite a few. Some regretable. Some understandable. Some a blessed release. Reasons as varied as the people involved

Indeed.... so have I.

Not a great choice of topic in the least.

Why ? A biker must be able, every day, to look Death fair square in the face, shake his hand, and say "See you on the road". Who better to discuss such a matter.

You have been personally impacted by someone's decision to kill themselves. So have I. The loss still hurts. But that's no reason to hide from the truth and pretend the reality doesn't exist.

I sense a moderator "This makes me personally uncomfortable, so I'm going to delete it" response here. Which is not valid moderation.

jazbug5

7th January 2008, 08:34

Ixion- with respect. I think the problem with this is mostly in how the O.P. chose to phrase the question. Suicide and suicidal feelings have been discussed elsewhere before on this forum, and with sensitivity.
The way this was asked was rather flippant, and that's going to get peoples' backs up. If that perception was wrong, then I'm sure he'll be along soon enough to put us right.

Can we resist the urge to bash a mod for having normal human feelings and an opinion, please?

sunhuntin

7th January 2008, 08:39

i know one guy who commited suicide... 05 i think it was.
i didnt know him really well as he was more my partners friend than anything else. the tiny amount of time i spent around him, he seemed like a decent guy.
im thinking drugs had a part to play... the club he was formerlly a member of use drugs regularly.

i got a butterfly for scuzzy, cos i did consider him a friend.

Conquiztador

7th January 2008, 08:44

I have had many friends who, sadly, have been "successful" in taking their own life. The worst part is "I should have known, the signs were there...". And the "perhaps if I had not been so occupied with my own life and given him/her time then...". Would I have made a difference? I will never know. But that I did not do something is what I always will have to carry with me.

Lately I have had the attempts very close. My ex has tried on several occasions. And only "luck" has made that she has not been "successful". As she is the mother of my children I could not just stand by and watch. The chance that my kids would loose their mother would have changed their life forever. So I have done all I can to keep her alive. Support, talks, financial. You name it. Yes, it becomes a burden. But my kids are worth it. And slowly things are getting better.

The ones I knew who have committed suicide and the ones I know who have tried all have one thing in common: They feel they do not belong, things are too much for them, they can not cope. So with my experience I would say that the best thing you can give someone who you think is at risk is support. Give them time. Listen. Often you do not need to have a solution. To just have someone who is prepared to listen when things are too much is often all that it takes. I am strong, I have never been there. But even so, if I today try to think about who I have that would be prepared to listen to me if I have something I want to air, the options I have are very limited. So for someone who is islolating them selves, they most probably have nobody.

And to vifferman, jeezzz!! I hope that was an poor attempt of being funny. If one of my kids were contemplating suicide there is NOTHING I would not do for him. If you have run out of options, energy or care, then please, get help from outside. Put him in contact with people who can deal with it. Start by folowing the links I provided earlier. As if he "succeeds" your life will change forever for the worse. All the best!!

jonbuoy

7th January 2008, 08:44

Well you guys are a barrel of laughs on monday morning!

Hitcher

7th January 2008, 08:49

I sense a moderator "This makes me personally uncomfortable, so I'm going to delete it" response here. Which is not valid moderation.

This thread makes this Moderator very "personally uncomfortable". But it doesn't (yet) break or threaten any site rules.

Ixion

7th January 2008, 08:58

It is the modern great unspeakable. It should not be. It is always sad, but not always tragic.

I had an uncle some years back. Went for a walk in the bush with a shotgun. I knew he was going to do it. Didn't know the exact time or place, but he'd been in poor health for some years, and only hung on for the sake of his wife. I was fond of the old bastard (still am), and I think it was reciprocated. He'd made it quietly plain that once his wife was gone , he wasn't going to hang around. Once she died (of natural causes) I knew it would be only a matter of time.

I respect his decision. I wouldn't have (and didn't) try to stop him. He was a tough old bugger, knew exactly what he was doing. If I find myself in the same situation I hope I have the balls to follow his example.

The Lone Rider

7th January 2008, 09:36

I'm glad to see this has sparked some genuine discussion

99TLS

7th January 2008, 09:40

yes i know a few people who have taken the selfish route out of this world and a couple of them werent pretty , and have had the displeasure of being around the families after , not nice indeed ,

vifferman

7th January 2008, 09:47

And to vifferman, jeezzz!! I hope that was an poor attempt of being funny. If one of my kids were contemplating suicide there is NOTHING I would not do for him. If you have run out of options, energy or care, then please, get help from outside. Put him in contact with people who can deal with it. Start by folowing the links I provided earlier. As if he "succeeds" your life will change forever for the worse. All the best!!
No, that was not a joke (the bit about killing myself was, although I've had a few vague attempts myself).
I wrote a reply to this, attempting to explain what it's like living with him, and how I'm in no state myself to deal with it, but I deleted it, and my original post, as what difference does it make?
There are no real answers, it's not black and white, no simple "one size fits all cure", so what's the point? :spudwhat:

My uncle killed himself the month my dad died, and his father died a few days later, ostensibly from a motoring 'accident', but given that he wasn't supposed to be driving and was zoned out on valium, you can bet it was no accident.
A friend of our family killed himself after his wife died: he was expecting to be first to die and had no relatives left. He drank about a bottle of whiskey a day until his already poor health gave out. It took a surprisingly long time. Poor bastard had lived through a lot: their four kids had died in WWII after a bomb dropped on their house, he served in the Cameron Highlanders and was evacuated from Dunkirk, and in his last few years both him and his wife were very ill. Compared with him, my son has little to bleat about: he's healthy (apart from mentally), VERY smart, has parents who are fukn saints for putting up with all his shit, and lives in a basically 'free' country, with fresh water, plenty of food, plenty of opportunities. He really needs an attitude adjustment, but we can't give it to him because unlike him (he knows everything), we "don't know shit, so fuck up!"

Colapop

7th January 2008, 10:27

Keep trying - everyday. It will drain you and you will feel like there is nogratitude (quite the opposite.) But everyday, try. If "You don't know shit" then "Why don't YOU (your son) explain it to me - rationally."

0arbreaka

7th January 2008, 10:31

I work in Auckland hospital and see and deal with alot of patients who have attempted suicide, I figured it came with the job and learnt to deal with seeing various things like that, but yesterday I got one of my biggest shocks when I went into the emergency department to see a colleague and saw one of my old school friends in the observation room(two security guards in attendance) for attempted suicide, from what I heard from the nurse he had tried to commit suicide by inhaling the carbon monoxide from his car, but his mum had found him before it was too late.

candor

7th January 2008, 10:57

The "successful" ones often aren't suspected. Like most things its not signposted in neon lights.

Either because they were acting normally, or the clues were very subtle - but people generally aren't attentive to others these days (families or communities imo) and generally are wrapped up in the busy-ness of modern life.

A friends brother at 18. Noone had a clue anything was wrong. Only on reflection. A few small teen type issues - ashamed of his hair colour... will I ever get a girlfriend... will I ever feel the belonging I had at school playing sports etc (just left). Thats from his note. Probably some depression going on but outwardly bright and the life of party.

Add to that lots of family pressure to grow up and get out in the world and make something of himself. Expected to fully support himself thru training and pay high board to Mum (who didn't need it) as a lesson in being "adult". Working a scuzzy job in gap year or two to save for training for round 2-3 mths by then and getting picked on at work by old hags of another culture.

An argument at home... with the conclusion he'd be better off to leave home. Looking for a flat a few days only I think. Overload. Drove several hours away and did the carbon monoxide.

No-one saw it coming. But on reflection - pressures outweighed coping ability. Kiwi expectation that people should just "handle it" - whatever comes their way, was a big contributant I think. Plus just general inconsideration.

As Conquistador said. Listening - very important. Number 1 is to be attentive - IF you care. Not dismissive. "She'll be right" - u / someone can die by that idea! Its like seeing a mole on someone and noticing a small change.
You don't see if not aware and not making bit of an effort to be observant and they may be too busy to have noticed or attended to it.

We can be safety nets. I saw a unhealthy mole on 2 friends lately - told both - one got it looked at last week and it was melanoma and now it's cut out. Other friend brushed off my observation. Same thing goes with mental health. Noticing can make all the difference, sometimes.

Joni

7th January 2008, 11:27

I sense a moderator "This makes me personally uncomfortable, so I'm going to delete it" response here. Which is not valid moderation.Well, as many a time before, you sense wrong dear Ixion.

However to answer your question as to why, what my family have been through, who did it, why and what were the signs leading up to it - has got stuff all to do with KB. And for the record, seeing you need it spelled out, that is my PERSONAL opinion.

Number One

7th January 2008, 11:54

Tough topic but agree it should be talked about openly..the problem is we all clam up and don't know how to talk about it...and then there's the attitude "Don't talk about it lest people get ideas" etc.

When I was a college student we apparently had the worst record in NZ at the time for it :weep: One year we had 6 suicides...3 of which were within a week of each other, and no they were not all in the same clique or any other obvious grouping. Not ALL druggies, dummies or delinquents...a couple were morbidly curious and talked about death alot and did the whole Goth thing (not that being a goth means you are suicidal btw!) but the others were quite a mixed bag - super intelligents, sporting stars, life of the party etc etc

I too around this time 'attempted'...had been feeling out of control for years leading into it and had been sending out warning signs to those around me however with the climate of death at school it was dismissed by my ma as typcial teenage attention seeking behaviors?! WTF?!!!

Stupidest thing I've ever done, haven't ever contemplated it again (even in some very very dark times) and while it was definately related to overload, pressure and a generally dysfunctional home environment and child/parent relationship I'd have to say in retrospect that hormones played a huge part...sorry to mention the H word but when you are a teenager you can be soooo out of control on these!

My only 2 *personal opinions* on helpful advice would be to never be afraid to confront (gently)someone who you think is in danger let them know you are afraid for them and want to help that was what got through to me in the end and it was coming from a family friend who had tried to get parents to take me seriously but given the attempt had decided to take matters into her own hands...she is an angel and I'm so thankful that I have the life I now have because of her encouragement and support.

....Oh and one bit of advice for parents whose kids might be in trouble..don't dismiss, don't ever tire of trying to reach out and help them, take charge if you have to and DON't FFS tell your teenager (when you find out that they are contemplating or have tried) to "Just get over yourself , that every day you feel like driving off the Rimutakas and ending it all because you are tired, fed up and drained too! AND don't keep throwing it back at them everytime you have an argument...eg: "Spose you gonna go off and kill yourself now are ya?" Really NOT HELPFUL!!!!!!! Still don't forgive her and would definately do better by my boy if he ever was feeling so helpless.

Rant over.:calm:

Hitcher

7th January 2008, 12:17

Suicide, or rather the open discussion of it, is one of the few sacred cows left in our society, probably because it is hard for most to understand and also because it is not a "victimless" act, as some try to paint it.

Hard to understand? Yes, given that the survival instinct is one of any animal's strongest drivers, with humans being no exception. "Free will" and freedom of choice (forgetting about the Labour Government's desires for one moment) also (unfortunately?) includes an ability to decide whether one oneself lives or not. What goes on inside the head of another person is ultimately not known by anybody other than that person, which is the thing that makes suicide so hard for its observers to rationalise or understand.

There is a big difference here between people with a terminal disease or some chronic ailment for which there is no relief from pain who choose to end it all, versus some morose/self-absorbed teenager with their whole life in front of them who is just going through a "phase". Unsuccessfully. One act is understandable to most people, the other not.

I suspect that there are very few families or individuals that have not been touched in some way by the pain/trauma/stigma of suicide. This is why I say it is not a "victimless" act.

Our media still operates under a voluntary code relating to coverage of suicide. For example the cause/means of death is almost never reported for crimes that are known to be suicide. There is also a lot of nonsense talked about coverage leading to "copy-catting". I suspect that this is a perception rather than a reality.

The sooner we as a society grow up and come to terms with suicide, its causes and consequences, the better. Only then will we be better placed - as individuals and as a community - to deal with it and the consequences faced by its victims.

imdying

7th January 2008, 12:20

Kiwi expectation that people should just "handle it" - whatever comes their way, was a big contributant I think. Plus just general inconsideration.You'd think, given this countries attitude, it's just natures way of weeding out the non copers. Go Kiwi :rolleyes:

never be afraid to confront (gently)someone who you think is in dangerWord up nigga :scooter:

SPman

7th January 2008, 12:44

yes i know a few people who have taken the selfish route out of this world ....

I wouldn't call it selfish, because, to the majority of cases, if you are in a state where you are seriously, even contemplating suicide, words like "selfish", "easy way out", "coward", etc, are so far removed from the equation, they are meaningless. You are in a little box in your mind, where it seems the only logical way out is death, and, unless you've been there, or very, very close, to a normal sane rational person, it is a totally alien concept and rather difficult to comprehend.
I've knocked on the door, but, for whatever reason, managed not to go through it.
Sometimes, it may look like spur of the moment, but closer inspection, usually shows that it really wasn't.

17 relatives and friends have gone through it (that I'm aware off) and 16 didn't come out - the 17th cocked it up and lived the rest of his short life with terrible disfigurements!
Like any death, it is those left behind who have to come to terms with what has happened and a suicide, generally, just seems such a bloody waste!

Kittyhawk

7th January 2008, 12:49

13 months ago I lost the plot to the point I didnt know what I was doing. I snapped and had a break down. The cops turned up broke into my place to find me sitting there with a pool of blood on the desk, and down my right arm where I had cut myself. By the time they saw me I was holding a knife to my neck, and I was close to ending it. I felt so low, alone, didnt see the point in living or going on in life no one understands me, and had alot of pain from the past.

All I remember is sitting in a room moments later with no windows, being assessed and wondering what was going on. I was throwing myself against the wall to induce physicial pain and get rid of the mental emotional unstability which was playing havoc with me. I ended up having therapy 5 days a week. There were times where I overdosed, over drank, self harmed, and still really couldnt cope with life.

0800 800 717 is the crisis line, they are 24 hours, if you know you are in danger yourself ring them, if you know of someone who is going to do it, call them.

candor

7th January 2008, 13:39

Good posts - Not one of prolly over a thousand suicidals I nursed was selfishly motivated. They were self less usually - thinking irrationally (humans make errors) that their going would be a burden off every one else.

But one very different lady I had involvement with waited about 30 years (suicidal since 7) - having been severely suicidal every day - until the day last kid left home, because she felt responsible and had to put them first - even b4 escaping living hell.

That to me was an extraordinarily unselfish achievement. Luckily be a complete fluke she was caught in the act. Even tho it was well planned and remote. After months of intensive inpatient help she was Ok. After a life which once I knew about I privately supported her right to euthanase. Didn't expect her to survive long term after months of extremely intensive nursing of her, "(too) damaged goods" in the words of another poster.

But what do you know. Help succeeded. The human healing or life principle I think - grow or perish, you can't go back, only onward and upward if only you can avoid going sideways in vulnerable times. 2 words from my training were most important for the team effort with her and pretty much all others = sow hope (even if you don't even believe someone has hope - fake it).

vifferman

7th January 2008, 13:47

sow hope (even if you don't even believe someone has hope - fake it).
Well, that's what I've tried to do with my son.
The problem is, when someone's in the pit of despair, they find it very hard to believe there's even a remote chance of things getting better, so it's a very hard job.

Steam

7th January 2008, 13:51

This thread is quite mature, good on you folks.

I have had three close friends kill themselves, two guys and a girl.
I think I tend to have friends who are interesting people... the very creative or "different", outsiders, artists, etc, and they seem to kill themselves a lot.

It sucks going to funerals.

Two of the deaths came as no surprise, they were almost expected; "Dan killed himself yesterday."
"Oh? Hmm... Well I guess it was only a matter of time."
We'd given all the support we could to Dan and the others, loved them as much as we could, they were getting professional help even, but some things just have a feeling of inevitablity, in hindsight.

Only one of the deaths was a surprise, and that was an unexpected medical-related thing leading to a horrible imbalance in brain chemistry, which in turn led to mania and suicide.

I'm not going to talk about my personal experiences because it's too personal, but big respect to those of you who have.

007XX

7th January 2008, 13:56

My friend Shane killed himself via hanging 12 years ago.

He only left a note to his girlfriend, who tragically was the one to discover him.

He was one of the most handsome young man I have ever had the pleasure to know. He was beautiful on the outside (and I mean model looks) and even more stunning on the inside: considerate and intelligent, a good son, a good partner and also a good friend.

He was a poet and a gentle soul, and that was in the end what made the world seem too much to him.

A year later, I named my son Shane. Not because of some morbid need to wallow in sorrow, but more to honour who my friend was with life and joy.
My son is beautiful in and out, gentle and considerate, a good son, friend and his girlfriend tells me he is just the best (they're 10 :rolleyes:). I certainly hope however, that I have taught him enough about life not being fair that he understands it is just part of the bargain, and that really, life is too beautiful to be wasted, that there are many things too good to hang onto to throw it all away.

It is hard to talk about even now, but my friend Shane may have prepared me in ways he will never understand, on how to "fortify" my son against the harshness of everyday life. I see the silver lining every day, and so does he, so I hope it will be enough.

Hitcher

7th January 2008, 13:58

I think I tend to have friends who are interesting people... the very creative or "different", outsiders, artists, etc, and they seem to kill themselves a lot.

They certainly must be "creative". Most people are only capable of dying once.

doc

7th January 2008, 13:59

I'm just interested if anyone knows someone who committed suicide. What did they do to kill themselves? Were there signs that they were unhappy or was it something that just happened and the sudden shock was just too much? Did they leave a note? :violin:

Bet this is in response to the present line where the media are trying to get permission to publish more details about suicides (Its all about more sales than doing a service. )
People who are serious about suicide succeed, got to wonder about those who fail after many attempts, taking up a lot of resources.
Those on this site who deal with and had entry to both the Auckland Pathology Museum and The Police Museum at Trentham, will have seen the results of someone who was pretty determined to succeed. They will know what I'm on about.

Kittyhawk

7th January 2008, 15:16

007XX

7th January 2008, 15:26

How does someone cope when you know a good mate or family member is a ticking time bomb?

For example cancer? It could possibly be the cancer which kills him in the end, or he kills himself if things get too bad, either way its going to happen.

2 years ago dad was diagnosed with cancer also had a 1 kg tumor, and had a quadruple bypass, he got so sick the specialists couldnt do chemo or anything for him...when the hospital sent him home to die, he decided to take matters into his own hands..

He cured himself...

And is now building a house and developing a 10 acre lifestyle block at the age of 63.

A fortnight ago he had an MRI test done and everything came back clear...I cant explain this but he is a walking miracle.

But could he also be a ticking time bomb? how do you prepare yourself for it??

I know of a bosses brother ending life via suicide, and the unhappy rippling effects of the suicide were hard.

Seems to be more of the creative people who end it though. Almost like theres a natural unbalance where creative talent lies. Famous musicians/actors who strived for perfection ended life early.

The exposure of unhappyness while working at something creative where the heart is poured into it and comes out, sometimes causes self destruction.

The thing is Hun about coping, is that you just DO...it's on a day by day basis, and no one else than yourself can do it.

Yes, tomorrow I could die...yes, tomorrow my son and my hubby could be gone...yes, tomorrow could bring the worst things I might think of.

But you know what? I force myself not to think about it. Because anticipating pain does not make it hurt any less when it finally comes along.

All it does is make you feel miserable...so train your mind to look for the good in everything, be it within yourself or around you.

There is always some good around, it just takes a little effort to see it sometimes when things get hard.

Kittyhawk

7th January 2008, 15:42

The thing is Hun about coping, is that you just DO...it's on a day by day basis, and no one else than yourself can do it.

Yes, tomorrow I could die...yes, tomorrow my son and my hubby could be gone...yes, tomorrow could bring the worst things I might think of.

But you know what? I force myself not to think about it. Because anticipating pain does not make it hurt any less when it finally comes along.

All it does is make you feel miserable...so train your mind to look for the good in everything, be it within yourself or around you.

There is always some good around, it just takes a little effort to see it sometimes when things get hard.

Thanks chick, yea you are right...taking each day as it comes is pretty much how it is for now.

oldrider

7th January 2008, 15:42

scumdog

7th January 2008, 15:43

ANOTHER one down here - almost the same age as me.

Last week it was a 19 years old...

SPman

7th January 2008, 16:52

ANOTHER one down here - almost the same age as me.

Last week it was a 19 years old...

Christ - I'd top myself if I had to live down there.........

NighthawkNZ

7th January 2008, 16:54

Christ - I'd top myself if I had to live down there.........

I'd say they same thing if I had to live anywhere up north on that other island as well... they don't seem to have enough rallies...

Number One

7th January 2008, 17:01

I'd say they same thing if I had to live anywhere up north on that other island as well... they don't seem to have enough rallies...

That's cos there's actually stuff to do up here :shutup:

yungatart

7th January 2008, 17:05

I'm off to a funeral tomorrow.
37 yo mum of 5, ranging in age from 18 down to 8, committed suicide on Saturday.
I don't know how she did it and I don't much care.
It is all too sad!

scumdog

7th January 2008, 20:45

That's cos there's actually stuff to do up here :shutup:

Like bin, have cops pull you over, get stuck in traffic, have your bike pushed over (or pinched) and dodge red-light runners..:whistle::nya:

ynot slow

7th January 2008, 20:45

For example cancer? It could possibly be the cancer which kills him in the end, or he kills himself if things get too bad, either way its going to happen.
.

Two things people don't talk about cancer and suicide.
As for cancer,when your told you have it,a nurse said to me 2 things happen,how bad, and how do I kill myself,she said if you forget the second part your on the way to recovery.

I was lucky,I said fuck this shit what do I do to beat it,I was 40(41 in hospital),never even entered my head to end it AT ALL.To me that was being a loser,shit the docs were doing their best to get me free.Yep there was and are times I get annoyed,like when my mum and daughter were in hospital with cancer,being inherited,it pissed me off passing it to my daughter,even mum said same thing about giving it to me,gotta love genes.If I hadn't seen my doctor and died then my girl wouldn't know she had my gene,and can pass it on,she would have been in deep shit by the time she was 21 or so.

A mate I know had his nephew die,at funeral he said he didn't feel sorry for the boy,just his family,he stated he hated his nephew for what he had done to those he loved,some were annoyed most, felt the same way,even his parents admitted that.

scumdog

7th January 2008, 20:46

Christ - I'd top myself if I had to live down there.........

'Lived' down here a lot have you??:wait:

Number One

7th January 2008, 20:49

Like bin, have cops pull you over, get stuck in traffic, have your bike pushed over (or pinched) and dodge red-light runners..:whistle::nya:

Hey that's all STUFF :rolleyes: Oh and I don't live in AKL btw so only some of that stuff counts

Hitcher

7th January 2008, 21:34

Two things people don't talk about cancer and suicide.

People talk about cancer a lot. Kiwi Biker is no exception to that.

The Lone Rider

8th January 2008, 08:59

I dont think I know anyone who has, but if I do I've long forgotten who they were. Certainly no one I knew well I mean.

Bikernereid

8th January 2008, 09:13

I had cancer at the age of 18 and believe me it fooks your head up royally and the affect it had on my father was even worse. I was lucky and have gone on to gain my qualifications, travel the world etc etc and I love my life.

I lost my gramps, his sister and my dad (at 52) to cancer and I wouldn't wish watching the most important man in your life dying on my worst enemy. God there were times when the booze, drugs and men didn't help stop the pain but at the end of the day I am my father's daughter and I am a fighter and I chose to live life like my dad would have wanted, fast, furious and to the full!

The best advice my dad gave me was not regret anything as you don't lie on your death bed saying you wish you had spent more time at work! This is why I try and do wahat ever I can, such as getting to NZ and hooning round on bikes. I tend not to listen to people who do not matter but will do anything for those who do and I try to get by day by day.

You have choices to make in life and they are not always easy, but I would never judge anyone for choosing to kill themselves I know what it is like to be at that point in life when the only way of taking control of it is to end it. I am not condoning it before anyone tries to say that I am. I am just saying never judge a man til you have walked a mile in his shoes and if you can be a should to cry on or an ear to listen please take the time to do so. You might make a huge difference in someone life.

Two things people don't talk about cancer and suicide.
As for cancer,when your told you have it,a nurse said to me 2 things happen,how bad, and how do I kill myself,she said if you forget the second part your on the way to recovery.

I was lucky,I said fuck this shit what do I do to beat it,I was 40(41 in hospital),never even entered my head to end it AT ALL.To me that was being a loser,shit the docs were doing their best to get me free.Yep there was and are times I get annoyed,like when my mum and daughter were in hospital with cancer,being inherited,it pissed me off passing it to my daughter,even mum said same thing about giving it to me,gotta love genes.If I hadn't seen my doctor and died then my girl wouldn't know she had my gene,and can pass it on,she would have been in deep shit by the time she was 21 or so.

A mate I know had his nephew die,at funeral he said he didn't feel sorry for the boy,just his family,he stated he hated his nephew for what he had done to those he loved,some were annoyed most, felt the same way,even his parents admitted that.

Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)

8th January 2008, 11:00

Well, that's what I've tried to do with my son.
The problem is, when someone's in the pit of despair, they find it very hard to believe there's even a remote chance of things getting better, so it's a very hard job.

And you can talk 'til the cows come home and will not get through. Only the person going thru that can do it.

To me no subject is taboo. My closest friend suicided nearly 3 years ago and I supported her. I did not judge her at all - I knew where she was at - I also knew no matter how hard she worked "to get Better" she would still be struggling to exist. No quality of life in that.

She had tried several times - I offered to be with her and just hold her in my arms - I knew she would be successful at it one day. She was alone and frankly I am glad that she is now at peace.

People who say it is a selfish act have absolutely no idea of the pain etc that the suicidal person is going thru - until you have walked in their shoes - been where they have been - never judge. They shouldn't take their life cos you care for them? Well the world does not revolve around you - or me. None of us can control another person's thoughts or actions - and frankly I personally have no desire to (manipulate and control people). My friend sought all the help she could get - and we talked a lot, she knew I understood and been there so I was not talking thru a hole in my head.

Life can be a living hell for many people - be very grateful that you are not one of them. I hated seeing my friend suffer on a daily basis and getting worse. And she was one very strong woman. I miss her but I am really happy for her that she is now at peace.

Toaster

8th January 2008, 11:07

Mom

8th January 2008, 11:10

Been to several in my time and some very nasty ones indeed.

Managed to stop one guy killing himself by gassing himself to death once.

One death in particular I won't forget in a hurry was more because of the family he hurt and left behind. He hung himself in the bush, a place he loved to walk.

The hard bit was dealing with the obviously devastated family and finding out he had done it because he couldn't handle the fact his wife had been diagnosed with terminal cancer and it tipped him over the edge.

He left her behind.

I thought for a moment i knew this person, but he hung himself and devastated his family because he had got in big trouble with some very bad people who wanted to kill him, and he was at the same time wanted by New Scotland Yard for numerous offenses. He returned from England, visited all his family and spent quality time with them. Once he had done that he simply went into the bush at Orewa and hung himself. PRICK!

Toaster

8th January 2008, 11:13

he simply went into the bush at Orewa and hung himself. PRICK!

The guy I cut down from a tree was found in bush in northwest Wellington.

Common theme though... mindset aside, what they did was utterly selfish and hurtful to thweir families.

Conquiztador

8th January 2008, 11:21

People who say it is a selfish act have absolutely no idea of the pain etc that the suicidal person is going thru - until you have walked in their shoes - been where they have been - never judge. They shouldn't take their life cos you care for them? Well the world does not revolve around you - or me. None of us can control another person's thoughts or actions - and frankly I personally have no desire to (manipulate and control people).

OK, I can see both sides. And everyone has the option to end it if they so choose to. But it is a selfish decision. Selfish mening that they only considered them selves. If they have children, parents, brothers, sisters, partners, their decision will affect the ones left behind in ways that will scar them for life.

Try to explain to children why mum/dad killed them selves. It does not matter what you say they will think it was because of them.

If life was tough and a partner is left behind to alone keep it going. Does it suddenly get easier because the other one killed them selves?

When a brother/sister who you have grown up with kills them selves, does that not leave an empty place that will never be filled?

Suicide is not a solution. OK, I can understand the reasons when one has a disease/illness that is robbing you of your life. But suicide is not a option when looking at career decisions. "Now what should I do, should I go to Otago, should I take an apprentisechip, should I do the OE or is suicide the right option?" To encourage someone to kill them self makes you part of murder.

Usarka

8th January 2008, 12:11

Everything we do is selfish at the core of things. People are only nice to others because it makes them feel better as it reaffirms own values and beliefs. Or because one wants to maintain a relationship that you get a lot out of.

Want to hear about suicide stories. Talk to london train drivers, poor fuckers.

Hitcher

8th January 2008, 12:13

I am not aware (joking aside) of anybody who would offer suicide as a career choice or an option for anything. People just aren't wired that way.

And in terms of the "selfishness" of it, I don't think it's appropriate to judge other people's actions or decisions around taking their own lives. Their mental state must have been at an unbalanced point anyway (comparatively) for them to feel compelled to believe that death was a solution for whatever it was they thought was troubling them.

Yes, the impact on surviving family and friends can be traumatic and devastating. Particularly in one instance I am familiar with where the suicider's 5 and 7-year-old were the first to discover him hanging from the ceiling in the garage. A rational person would not have wished that to be the case. A rational person would also not have killed themselves.

Terms like "selfish" and "pointless" are value judgements made by people of comparatively sound mind and body and add nothing, in my opinion, to a meaningful discussion of the phenomenum that is suicide.

vifferman

8th January 2008, 13:08

Yes, the impact on surviving family and friends can be traumatic and devastating.
That's the thing that's stopped me when I've felt close to 'ending it all'. Especially after the husband of a close friend of my sister's killed himself, due to financial / career problems. One of his daughters said afterwards: "Mum - we weren't that bad, were we?"

jim.cox

8th January 2008, 13:14

I dont think I know anyone who has

That probably puts you in the minority then

Hope you manage to keep it that way

While topping yourself is not restricted to just this country, it does seem to be an all-too-common occurance here

enigma51

8th January 2008, 13:17

That's the thing that's stopped me when I've felt close to 'ending it all'. One of his daughters said afterwards: "Mum - we weren't that bad, were we?"

People who "end it all" (due to depression or something similiar) have lost all ability to reason like you did and thats the hardest part to deal with for a familly as they will feel like they have failed that person which is so far from the truth.

Blue Velvet

8th January 2008, 13:36

Just forget about it (suicide) it is contagious and very bad for your health!

There used to be on average in the Waitaki Valley about one a year, always on the agenda somewhere and right across the age groups, no pattern, just repetitive!

Lately there has been no talk of such events and the incidences have almost ceased. (thank goodness)

My opinion is that talking about these things only seems to increase the happenings.

The waste and anguish is horrific, put it back in the closet where it belongs.

Focus and talk about happy things, because what you think about and talk about HAPPENS! :grouphug: John.

I think it's precisely this attitude that makes suicidal people retreat further within and feel more alienated.

Perhaps suicides have almost ceased in your area because only the deluded happy remain?

I'm not dissing you personally, but I feel that the macho, brush it under the carpet approach is not the answer...

007XX

8th January 2008, 13:47

I think it's precisely this attitude that makes suicidal people retreat further within and feel more alienated.

Perhaps suicides have almost ceased in your area because only the deluded happy remain?

I'm not dissing you personally, but I feel that the macho, brush it under the carpet approach is not the answer...

Ok, not that I want to start an argument. But I think you will find that John was meaning this in a light hearted way.

What I read of his post is partly a truth. The reason I can say this is because I have experienced it myself.

Negative breeds and feeds off negative. When a person with a negative frame of mind is gently encouraged to think positively, about the good things in life, often it will help with the healing process.

However, should that person surround herself with other negative people and take part in solely negative discussions, then this will definitely worsen her situation as the frame of mind will become a "dead end" one.

I do not think that John meant it to sound like he is against therapy or any help of that sort which involves talking issues out.

stify

8th January 2008, 13:49

. I am just saying never judge a man til you have walked a mile in his shoes and if you can be a should to cry on or an ear to listen please take the time to do so. You might make a huge difference in someone life.

Having support and understanding like that from people who dont judge me has allowed me to start my journey in life and I thank them all, it's a day by day thing,but it's worth getting out there and living it.

Conquiztador

8th January 2008, 15:15

The ones of you that consider suicide an option to solving someones problems (again, not including someone who has a incurable desease or disability that is robbing them of their life) are part of the problem. You make suicide OK. You allow suicide to be an option. You are saying: "Hey, it's OK to kill your self if you can't handle it".

I have ppl around me who have been affected by suicide, I have been affected by it. Not once was that the only option. Not once was the outcome: "That was the best solution for all!!" There is always something to live for. Find the reaons, how small. All the issues can be solved.

Mental illness is a tricky one. What is it? A broken leg is a broken leg. You either have a broken leg or you don't. But mental illness, there is no clear line between "well" and "sick". We are all on a sliding scale and our ability to cope is what makes us function or not. You can be further down the scale of mental illness but have the ability to cope, or you can be at the top of the "well" part of the scale, but just are not equipped with the coping mechanism. Being mentally ill does not allow you to see things clearly. I know those who have tried suicide when they were sick. When they got better they were soo happy that they did not succeed.

To think that suicide is a normal part of life, of the times we live in, is totally wrong. There should be none (not taking in to account the ones mentioned in first paragraphe).

Badger8

8th January 2008, 17:08

Some very interesting discussion indeed, and kudos to all for keeping it clean and above board. This topic affects most of us to a greater or lesser extent.

I have seen more than my fair share in my short life unfortunately, growing up in northland we had a pretty high rate. I couldn't count on one hand how many people i knew went through with it and 'succeeded' (some after a few tries).
Some were no surprise, and these were often the ones who took a few tries to get it right (intentionally or not, i mostly dont know).
Some were complete surprises, until you find out what they'd been hiding for the last month/week/days. They took a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and i think it was those ones that hurt the most. Often there wasn't really anything in the way of danger signs, even in retrospect (how can you offer someone help if you nobody knows they need it?)

i have personally come close a few times in my life. Thankfully most times i had enough mental function left to look at the repercussions of those i had seen go down this path, and think better of it. Either that or i was too chicken to actually go through with it.
I haven't been at the point where i considered it as a viable options for about three or four years now, but there have been times it has crossed my mind. There are times when the dark clouds close in and my brain just doesn't function in it's normal way. It just refuses to comprehend that there could actually be someone out there who cares about me, that there is any future for me from here, that i am ever going to get anywhere, the list goes on. Close yourself off from the world for a few days and hear that inside your head 24 hours a day, it's enough to drive most anyone to think about it.

i just thank God that i never went through with it. That i was strong enough to come through it each time, and emerge a stronger person because of it. i am finally coming to a point in my life where i can start to see the good within myself, start to see the potential for the future, but the depression monster still rears it's ugly head from time to time. Some days it's easy, some days it's a fight, but you gotta keep on pluggin away. There is so much better ahead for you, even though you may not be able to see it right now, you never know what awaits you just over that hill ahead of you.

LilSel

8th January 2008, 17:21

I have lost too many friends to suicide... sadly family too

jrandom

8th January 2008, 17:25

I got depressed once, so I killed myself.

Worked a treat.

mstriumph

8th January 2008, 17:32

you know, you moderators, real or imaginary, ASTOUND me ...... can you PLEASE tell me why this post was banished to 'pointless drivel' whilst the rest of this thread was not??

i posted :-

insofar as the topic is concerned though, things happen, people react to them differently and the same people might react differently to the same happening at different times ......

if the decision is an irrational one,
those making it need help support and understanding

if the decision is a rational one, those making it don't need our commentary or interference

the problem, as always, is in knowing the difference.

I agree with Hitcher, though, that chucking around blameful and judgemental words helps nothing.

is this personal??

kevfromcoro

8th January 2008, 17:58

Just forget about it (suicide) it is contagious and very bad for your health!

My opinion is that talking about these things only seems to increase the happenings.

The waste and anguish is horrific, put it back in the closet where it belongs.

Focus and talk about happy things, because what you think about and talk about HAPPENS! :grouphug: John.
true John...never a true spoken

Big Dog

8th January 2008, 18:33

We all have the opportunity to make a differnece in the lives of the people we encounter, be it once or every day.

I have been on both sides of the fence, sometimes at the same time.
The first time I seriously weighted my options in this was about a year after I moved to Auckland. It weighed heavily in my heart mind and soul for four years. Even though there were periods of days or even weeks there was not a month it did not come in to my head. Every month it got so there was less reason to procceed.

One sentence got me through that, "this too shall pass".

Outwardly I led a charmed life, to many people I am a happy person. For moments in time I am. Inside I was dying a little more every day.

I went to a school reunion one day. One of the kids who used to bully me at school took me aside after dinner and said that a speech I had given in a competition at school had changed his life. That at the time he heard it he was planning to kill himself on the next school holidays.

I still have dark days. I still feel a blackness that gets thicker and thicker until it becomes a very real and tangible thing, but it is rarer now.

I think that Aucklanders are the main reason for this. They spend so much of their time worrying about what they want from you that they become dismissive of you.

When I feel really down I fabricate a reason to go and visit good people. I don't want hand outs, I don't want sympathy or even to have them say "you look sad". What I want / need is to have someone talk to me with decency / respect. Just offer sincerity and good company.

In all your dealings with people ask yourself how would I feel? Is that fair?

We all hold the power to make peoples lives better or worse. When you look at yourself in the mirror on the last day of your life, do you want to be able to say you made other people lives hell or that you made other people smile?

The Lone Rider

8th January 2008, 19:24

scumdog

8th January 2008, 19:27

Remember: With life there is hope.

With death you've lost all hope.

Todays black wall on front of you will be a tiny grey slope tomorrow, with friends and help there's always a solution that embraces life.

Colapop

8th January 2008, 19:28

If you are alone or at least think you are, you'll find that somewhere in your life you're not. It takes a small movement to reach out for help. Even when you don't want or think no-one is there.

Grahameeboy

8th January 2008, 19:35

My friend committed suicide. She wrote letters to her friends, I got a Marks & Spencer Voucher as she knew I like banana's........just stuck a tube from the exhaust and that was it.

I understand why she did it. Husband died early, then a close friend died of a heart attack, she had no kids, just a Sister..she had enough of life.

mstriumph

8th January 2008, 19:43

.......And what does someone who is alone do? ............... Who do they go to for help?.......

KiwiBiker?

Bikernereid

8th January 2008, 19:57

The Lone Rider

8th January 2008, 20:04

KiwiBiker?

Hmm, might not be any good for someone without a bike or internet?
Or someone who doesn't listen to strangers anyway? <_<

scumdog

8th January 2008, 20:15

Hmm, might not be any good for someone without a bike or internet?
Or someone who doesn't listen to strangers anyway? <_<

Lifeline.

And others.

But the main thing IS TO TALK TO SOMEBODY, anybody..

Bikernereid

8th January 2008, 20:33

I didn't talk as I didn't want to burden my parents, they had enough to deal with already. Everyone thought I was the life and soul of the party; been depressed or bipolar can create a great lair who really hides their pain and anguish well.

I eventually ended up in hospital after an overdose, which was not cry for help; I felt even more of a failure after I had screwed that up as well. Eventually I got some psychological assistance and talking did help but what I needed more than anything was to make it on my own. This proved to me that I could get through the dark days and even though it never leaves you I could control myself and my moods better.

Am I happy I did not suceed, hell yes but I can also remember where I was at that time and times since and will always have symapthy for anyone who does either try to kill themselves or succeeds as I know what a bleak place they have been or are in.

Number One

8th January 2008, 20:40

Kiwibiker as a support for people who are alone and in a fragile state? hmmmmm

Nice idea but while I see that there are a vast number of people on here who are great and do seem to have empathy and a modicum of care for others it seems that that all depends on whether your posts and opinions are well received or not.

Take the way this thread began...AND I MEAN NO offence here LS, but the simple wording, lack of context for the 'query' and kinda clunky delivery certainly had me (and I note a few others) feeling a bit ruffled and nervous about where it was all gonna go...:2thumbsup very impressed to see where it has gone (a mature discussion about the issue from many different viewpoints)

IMHO AND from my own obs/experience - Not everyone on KB is tolerant, understanding, encouraging or supportive...and I'd think it could be pretty tough for someone who is already 'unbalanced and suffering' to be slammed by one of those posters.

I recognise that we can't and shouldn't sugar coat life, or wrap ourselves up in cotton wool nor be expected always to worry about safeguarding others from possible offense but I'm not convinced that this forum would be the safest option for someone in a fragile state, unless they were really quite good at expressing themselves in written format.

Just my opinion AND AGAIN MANY of you cats on here are bloody gems but there are some that are just *%$#$ and worst of all IMHO they seem to act as if it is all just entertaining sport.

I took a shot at someone today on here and while it was a rather 'gentle one' compared to other comments made to said individual and I still think the comments that prompted my response were just plain DUMB after some 'enlightment from a fellow Kber' I do feel guilty about it.

Makes you wonder - what if my shitty reply/lash on here to someone was the straw that broke the camels back...could you live with yourself I'd certainly feel like shite! Might be overly dramatic but it is soooo easy to be completely removed from what you say on here isn't it?!

Mikkel

8th January 2008, 20:42

Very interesting thread this...

When I was younger (and perhaps still on rare occassions) I sometimes played with the thought like you play with fire or other dangerous matters. I was never really serious about it, but there is a darkness in me that can frighten and pull itself to the surface every now and again. Sometimes I have even invited it, played with it - like fire...

Somewhere I suspect that I am not all that different from everyone else - that everyone has an amount of darkness - an ability to do and appreciate negativity and evil - in them, somewhere no matter how well hidden.

Ones present situation has a great impact upon how well one handles this darkness, whether you are able or unable to handle, command, summon and banish it at will. We're all different, and have minds that are more or less robust.

However, if you loose control of that darkness it can fill your days and will eat away at your ability to bring it back under control. When your mind is filled with it, it becomes very hard to lighten up, coping with it or regaining your mental strength. And while you are engaged in this internal struggle you still present a cheerful facade to the world - because it's one of the few things you can do, it's easy and you think that pretending you're alright will somehow make things better. So noone sees your suffering, perhaps because they aren't looking deeply enough... And you can only hope that when you do crack, that you crack in a way that is not permanent!

This I have been there myself... Luckily, I have been priviledged with a good safety net and "the courage to cry" if you could call it that. Thus, I never went over the edge!

It is well known that people who have introspective qualities, are creative, thoughtful, worryers, etc. have a higher risk of taking their own lives. Personally I think it has to do with a curiosity, a willingness to confront and play with that personal darkness - which in turn will make you more likely to succumb to it...
Doesn't mean you can be immune by banishing it, denying it in everything that you do - that might just make you very ill-prepared for the day it manages to sink it's teeth into you despite your denial.

However, if you choose to leave this world behind - leaving anyone who truly care for you without having talked to them about it first - that is ALWAYS selfish, cowardly and despicable. It may be understandable, but that is an entirely different matter - no matter how you look at it suicide is the easy way out if you're unable to face the music!

On the other hand, if you do not leave anyone behind with that nagging feeling of "I should have known", "I could have done something", etc. then I think you should be free to choose how to end your life if you so desired (euthanasia, self-sacrifice, etc.)

Sorry, that got kinda long-winded, but enough of my pseudo-psycho babble! I'm pretty sure it also has something to do with how we live our lives and how we choose to relate to that. If we join in the de-personalising madness or if we can to stand back and appreciate and laugh at the absurdity of it.
Depressing as they may be I think the following lyrics are pretty spot on:

All around me are familiar faces
Worn out places, worn out faces
Bright and early for their daily races
Going nowhere, going nowhere
Their tears are filling up their glasses
No expression, no expression
Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow
No tomorrow, no tomorrow
And I find it kind of funny
I find it kind of sad
The dreams in which I'm dying
Are the best I've ever had
I find it hard to tell you
I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It's a very, very
Mad World
Mad world

Children waiting for the day they feel good
Happy Birthday, Happy Birthday
And I feel the way that every child should
Sit and listen, sit and listen
Went to school and I was very nervous
No one knew me, no one knew me
Hello teacher tell me what's my lesson
Look right through me, look right through me
And I find it kind of funny
I find it kind of sad
The dreams in which I'm dying
Are the best I've ever had
I find it hard to tell you
I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It's a very, very
Mad World
Mad World
Enlarging your world
Mad World.

Bikernereid

8th January 2008, 20:47

The new version is far more moving than the original but when you really listen to the lyrics it makes you realise just what life can be like for some people and it is not good.

What you have said is extremely insightful and I think for the most part quite accurate. I think we disagree on some issue but where would we be if we agreed on everything all of the time. Differences are what make us unique and greater understand of these differences helps us to evolve and mature into better human beings.

Very interesting thread this...

When I was younger (and perhaps still on rare occassions) I sometimes played with the thought like you play with fire or other dangerous matters. I was never really serious about it, but there is a darkness in me that can frighten and pull itself to the surface every now and again. Sometimes I have even invited it, played with it - like fire...

Somewhere I suspect that I am not all that different from everyone else - that everyone has an amount of darkness - an ability to do and appreciate negativity and evil - in them, somewhere no matter how well hidden.

Ones present situation has a great impact upon how well one handles this darkness, whether you are able or unable to handle, command, summon and banish it at will. We're all different, and have minds that are more or less robust.

However, if you loose control of that darkness it can fill your days and will eat away at your ability to bring it back under control. When your mind is filled with it, it becomes very hard to lighten up, coping with it or regaining your mental strength. And while you are engaged in this internal struggle you still present a cheerful facade to the world - because it's one of the few things you can do, it's easy and you think that pretending you're alright will somehow make things better. So noone sees your suffering, perhaps because they aren't looking deeply enough... And you can only hope that when you do crack, that you crack in a way that is not permanent!

This I have been there myself... Luckily, I have been priviledged with a good safety net and "the courage to cry" if you could call it that. Thus, I never went over the edge!

It is well known that people who have introspective qualities, are creative, thoughtful, worryers, etc. have a higher risk of taking their own lives. Personally I think it has to do with a curiosity, a willingness to confront and play with that personal darkness - which in turn will make you more likely to succumb to it...
Doesn't mean you can be immune by banishing it, denying it in everything that you do - that might just make you very ill-prepared for the day it manages to sink it's teeth into you despite your denial.

However, if you choose to leave this world behind - leaving anyone who truly care for you without having talked to them about it first - that is ALWAYS selfish, cowardly and despicable. It may be understandable, but that is an entirely different matter - no matter how you look at it suicide is the easy way out if you're unable to face the music!

On the other hand, if you do not leave anyone behind with that nagging feeling of "I should have known", "I could have done something", etc. then I think you should be free to choose how to end your life if you so desired (euthanasia, self-sacrifice, etc.)

Sorry, that got kinda long-winded, but enough of my pseudo-psycho babble! I'm pretty sure it also has something to do with how we live our lives and how we choose to relate to that. If we join in the de-personalising madness or if we can to stand back and appreciate and laugh at the absurdity of it.
Depressing as they may be I think the following lyrics are pretty spot on:

Mikkel

8th January 2008, 21:00

The new version is far more moving than the original but when you really listen to the lyrics it makes you realise just what life can be like for some people and it is not good.

I agree that Gary Jules' interpretation is way better than Tears for Fears original (written by Roland Orzabal and released in 1982). However, seeing as Gary Jules didn't write the lyrics I wouldn't consider it appropriate to credit him for them ;)

I do however disagree, I think most of us would be able to recognise quite a few things from those lyrics in our everyday lives. I certainly can recognise a few things from my current life and from my upbringing as well.

Considering it was written in 1982 I think it is a very insightful piece of contemporary poetry! :D

What you have said is extremely insightful and I think for the most part quite accurate. I think we disagree on some issue but where would we be if we agreed on everything all of the time. Differences are what make us unique and greater understand of these differences helps us to evolve and mature into better human beings.

Indeed, it would be boring if we all knew everything and everyone was right all the time!

Too bad too few embraces the diversity and shy away from the unknown!

The Lone Rider

8th January 2008, 21:12

Take the way this thread began...AND I MEAN NO offence here LS, but the simple wording, lack of context for the 'query' and kinda clunky delivery certainly had me (and I note a few others) feeling a bit ruffled and nervous about where it was all gonna go...:2thumbsup very impressed to see where it has gone (a mature discussion about the issue from many different viewpoints)

I was tired and couldn't sleep, having gotten up at 8am that morning. Managed sleep at 1pm the next day,... er same day. Still feeling pretty tired.

Big Dog

8th January 2008, 21:58

You know a lot people are saying you need to support someone who is going through the motions.

And what does someone who is alone do? There are people who live alone, with either no family or rather aged parents, and with a limited capacity to spend time with friends as their friends all have kids and family that take all their time? Who do they go to for help?

Yikes, I've started a long thread.
There have been times when I have never felt so crowded when only in my own company, nor so alone as when I have been with thousands of like minded individuals.

I have lived on my own and had plenty of company.
Lived with 6 others and had no company.

It is not the numbers it is how genuine the participants are.

There are some people on here I feel a lift in my spirits just because they posted in a thread I am reading.

If you are talking about a friend. Drop by without motive. Share something you both enjoy, a nice meal, a DVD, a game of scrabble.

If you are talking about yourself... that gets a bit harder.
You can look for your self.
You can look for a friend.
Who says your friends with kids are not dying for some adult company?
Who says your friends with kids are not dying for a bullshit session?
Who says your friends are not dying to have a night out together? Could you baby sit for them? Would you feel better about yourself if you could make their day a little brighter?

There sure is something rejuvenating about spending some time with someone else's kids (you can give them back when they are all wound up).

If you feel alone make a decision to make someone else's day special.
If you or your mate have no friends make the day of a stranger.

I am not talking buy a stranger a car. I mean when the lady in front of you is struggling with three kids, two shopping carts, a screaming baby and a purse that will not cooperate, smile back instead of giving her a withering look. Try to entertain the baby.
When you see a "little old lady" struggling with her groceries offer to help her.

Practice random acts of kindness and our world becomes a better place.

imdying

9th January 2008, 06:38

Remember: With life there is hope.

With death you've lost all hope.But in death, hope is no longer required.

Number One

9th January 2008, 06:39

Indeed, it would be boring if we all knew everything and everyone was right all the time!

Too bad too few embraces the diversity and shy away from the unknown!

So true...reminds me of a saying
"If both of us agree on everything, one of us is not needed"

Conquiztador

9th January 2008, 08:23

But in death, hope is no longer required.

And you know this how?

scumdog

9th January 2008, 08:38

But in death, hope is no longer required.

And neither is riding your bike on a beautiful day over a good road..or sharing humour with a friend....or the satisfaction of fixing your own bike...or a friend from waay back suddenly dropping in after a long absence..or seeing your kids doing well at sports/school...or seeing an awsome sun-set over spectacular scenery.....etc etc

Yup, death sure fixes a lot of 'problems' .

NighthawkNZ

9th January 2008, 08:44

But in death, hope is no longer required.

All I know is that suicide causes more problems, pain and greif, as well as possible thoughts of a chain reaction of commiting suicide themself to family and friends. Leaves them empty and woundering why, how they missed it and could have helped...

In death hope is required...

Conquiztador

9th January 2008, 08:48

A story. A factual one:

I had a childhood friend. He used to turn up on our doorstep at 6am in the summer and just sit there waiting for me to wake up so that I would come and fish with him. We were 6 yo.

We stayed friends and went to same schools. He was a big guy. Strong and scary for many. But he was really a gentle giant. He had a brother. And a mother and father who lived in same house. But even at an young age I could sense that all was not well between them. He liked to spend time at our place. I only had a mother at home, my father was at sea.

At 15 he changed. He pulled away from school. He would sit outside school and hold a one man protest about something he was passionate about. I started to loose contact with him. I was now in to my motorbikes and girls. But these were not his interests. We would still talk, but we were on different levels.

At 16 he had found him self an old house close to the city dump. There he lived without power together with his cat. He played guitar, wrote songs. And poetry. His poetry was about how he did see the world. Unjustice, unfair treatment, ppl who did not care.

I would ride my bike to see him at times. But not often. Once, when I had got my self a car, I visited with 3 other friends that he also knew, but who had not been close to him. We chatted, but I felt uncomfortable, like I had taken them to see an animal at the zoo. So we left soon. He asked me to come for another visit, alone, soon. I promised to do so. But I got busy...

4 weeks later he had hanged him self. But first he strangled his cat.

After his death his poems were publicised. And his book became a top seller in the community. I have read the poems many times. None of them talk about suicide. But there is a clear "I am not part of this society" in them.

Could I have made a difference if I had visited and spent time with him? I will never know. But if I had a second chance I would try!!

This changed who I am. Today I give it a try.

A lady I know had stopped by the roadside in her car. I went past, when I came back she was still there. I stopped my car and went to see if all was OK. She got a freight, she was deep in thoughts. She assured all was OK. As she lived close by I started to pop in to just say hi and have chats. Not sure if I made any difference. But if she had tried something and I had not done what I did, then I would always have thought: "Wonder if I could have made a difference".

imdying

9th January 2008, 08:54

And you know this how?Well you're either saved, or you're off to hell, neither of those places requires hope... of course, commit suicide, and you're going to hell anyway... :bye:

Conquiztador

9th January 2008, 09:00

Well you're either saved, or you're off to hell, neither of those places requires hope... of course, commit suicide, and you're going to hell anyway... :bye:

Assumptions. There might be nothing after this. There might be something with more rules and harder to get to "the next level". A little like a computer game. Nobody knows. But if it is much harder and what you did in this life will count, should you not try to make sure that you do the best you can so that, if that would be the case, you have a good starting platform??

Hitcher

9th January 2008, 09:08

Well you're either saved, or you're off to hell, neither of those places requires hope... of course, commit suicide, and you're going to hell anyway...

This sort of religious dogma also adds no value to a sensible discussion on suicide.

Suicide has always existed and always will. It is an unfortunate but real part of the human condition. Indeed it could even be categorised as "normal".

While suicide may be hard to understand or rationalise by those of comparatively sound mind, that does not make it wrong or even evil. Attempts by various religions to condemn suicide as a mortal sin or some other heinous form of endeavour have not succeeded in eliminating this practice. Indeed condemning the "soul" of successful suiciders to eternal damnation or other forms of criminalisation only ever make criminals of or contribute to the emotional baggage heaped upon the families and friends of the suicider.

Suiciders deserve respect in death, despite the consequences of their actions on those who survive them. They had reasons and justification for the action that they took that made sense to them, even though they may have been unaware of the severity of its impacts. Their survivors deserve love and support.

The sooner we (as a community) can take an enlightened and informed approach to suicide, the sooner we will be able to better deal with it and its always tragic consequences.

Mom

9th January 2008, 09:09

I mean when the lady in front of you is struggling with three kids, two shopping carts, a screaming baby and a purse that will not cooperate, smile back instead of giving her a withering look. Try to entertain the baby.
When you see a "little old lady" struggling with her groceries offer to help her.

Practice random acts of kindness and our world becomes a better place.

Nice!

I did exactly that yesterday, poor Mom with 3 kids, the little baby had been wailing non-stop while she did her groceries. I happened to be parked close to her car, when I went to take my trolley back to the trolley bay I stopped and talked to her. She told me the baby was just simply "pissed off" and spent a lot of his day yelling for no good reason. So I talked to this 3 month old baby while she unloaded her shopping into the car and got the other 2 kids in seats etc. Baby stopped crying, and started smiling, she got her job done with a bit less stress, and I got baby smiles :sunny:

Bit further down the road, little old lady complete with zimmer frame, wobbling along starts to cross the road. Yikes!!!! I went and escorted her across, our town is extremely busy at this time of the year, driving is like dodgems, she did not stand a chance!

Makes you feel good inside when you have an opportunity to help someone without being asked.

imdying

9th January 2008, 09:24

This sort of religious dogma also adds no value to a sensible discussion on suicide.That's your opinion of course... another opinion is that it's the most important thing to remember about suicide :shrug:

vifferman

9th January 2008, 09:52

There have been times when I have never felt so crowded when only in my own company, nor so alone as when I have been with thousands of like minded individuals.

I have lived on my own and had plenty of company.
Lived with 6 others and had no company.
I sometimes find myself feeling much lonelier when in a crowd (even of people I know) than on my own. I tend to avoid social gatherings for that reason (and because I invariably end up feeling like a dork).

Hitcher

9th January 2008, 10:00

That's your opinion of course... another opinion is that it's the most important thing to remember about suicide

Being condemned to "eternal damnation" or equivalent is the most important thing about suicide? Are you serious?

And this "penalty" discourages suiciders how? I am certain that that is the last thing on their minds at their moment of truth.

What you are advocating is revenge for the living. A similar proposition to advocating a death penalty for murder. Neither outcome provides any disincentive for the acts in question.

yungatart

9th January 2008, 10:02

I'm off to a funeral tomorrow.
37 yo mum of 5, ranging in age from 18 down to 8, committed suicide on Saturday.
I don't know how she did it and I don't much care.
It is all too sad!

The weather was grey and dismal, raining at times.
Her poor children were sitting around their mum's coffin, the 8 y/o sobbing his heart out, the 13 y/o twin girls looking vacant and empty, the 16 y/o confused and hurt and knowing that she is to become a "mum" to her little siblings and her 18 y/o trying so hard to be a man and hold it all together.
Would I change it if I could? Hell yes!
Can I? Not for this family, and I suspect not for a lot of others either.
Will that stop me from trying? Never!
Young children should not have to bury their parents, elderly parents should not have to bury their children.
I am truly saddened at the loss of a lovely lady. RIP V

imdying

9th January 2008, 10:10

And this "penalty" discourages suiciders how?It may encourage sufficient introspective thought to make them think twice... which is useful, as it appears from this thread that external influences are of dubious value (yeah, I'm fine, thanks for asking, bang).

Hitcher

9th January 2008, 10:15

It may encourage sufficient introspective thought to make them think twice... which is useful, as it appears from this thread that external influences are of dubious value (yeah, I'm fine, thanks for asking, bang).

Hmmm. They would firstly have to first be devoutly religious to be challenged by such a consideration. And in the absence of emirical evidence, we will never know whether they have gone to "hell" or not, if indeed such a place actually exists.

imdying

9th January 2008, 10:22

Hmmm. They would firstly have to first be devoutly religious to be challenged by such a consideration.That premise somewhat ignores the not uncommon phenomenon of being 'born again'.

Ixion

9th January 2008, 11:07

Being condemned to "eternal damnation" or equivalent is the most important thing about suicide? Are you serious?

And this "penalty" discourages suiciders how? I am certain that that is the last thing on their minds at their moment of truth.

What you are advocating is revenge for the living. A similar proposition to advocating a death penalty for murder. Neither outcome provides any disincentive for the acts in question.

I have known at least two cases where the belief in such a penalty has deterred (and probably prevented) someone from taking their life.

Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)

9th January 2008, 11:23

Believe me if you suffer with depression or bipolar you can't help how you feel and it is constantly as if someone is playing with a switch that controls your moods. There is nothing so despairing than not being able to control what is going on in your head. People with mental health issues who commit suicide are people that have no other choice and are not selfish. They are doing the only thing that they can to help themselves, and you may find that they have tried so many other things that killing themselves is the only solution. Yes it is devestating for those left behind but the constant pain that they were in was far worse.

Totally agree - they are what I term "tortured souls".
People/friends just cannot get thru. You are beyond tears, despair, there is NO HOPE whatsoever - you have been there before - you know things don't actually get better - just different. You cannot will or think yourself well. You are separated from everyone and everything - like not on this earth but in a "holding/waiting area". You don't feel any emotion whatsoever.

4-5 years ago I was in that state - my mentor and good friend said right out she loved me, as did many others and she named them also said hey you have combatted alcoholism and drug addiction and stopped smoking - my response so fn what it means nothing, she did not want to see me go - I never felt that love, it never got thru, basically with no disrespect it did not touch me at all - she called the CAT Team - well the silly retarded "6week" trained counsellors turned up 3 hours later - and because I can speak very well, fooled them entirely - do you know they didn't even check my car - where they would have found everything to do the job - complete down to the music I had chosen. FFS - I know if I was a counsellor I sure as hell know the questions to ask and could identify with the client. I drove half an hour home went to bed - had to wait til flatmate was asleep and I gave it one hour - I said right if there's a fkn god then you better get ya shit together and help me - I've had it. Now of course I hadn't been sleeping at all - and it was like I was knocked unconscious! Fell asleep - crisis over.

Fk knows why this god/universe wants me here cos did my life get any better NO - it proceeded to deal me the biggest blow and I had thought I had had more than enough of those (as did my friends who would often say christ when are you going to get a break). I'm sick of hearing all these things make you strong - yeah I'm so fn strong its not funny - has it made me happy??What is so great about being so strong?? Now that subject could open up a whole new one but I won't go there.

I hit another rock bottom in 06, cot death, moving cities, a pathological lying ex, bad motorbike accident, death of 2 close friends, finding a new job and accommodation in a new city - anyway I knew a decision had to be made once and for all. I give recovery my all or end it. I knew no-one could help - I had approached my Dr and was put in the mental health system. They gave me a young "6week" trained counsellor who I met once and knew intuitively she had no fn idea and couldn't help me - I proceeded to tell her what plan of action I intended to take - was there anything she could suggest or add. NO. This is not meant to sound arrogant - it is just that I had been in this place before but it gets worse each time. I worked my arse off - yes to the person who started this thread - I was all on my own, I do not have a loving supportive family - hadn't made many new friends here due to just moving - had no support network - 2 friends I thought I could rely on - vanished. I finally got my bike back after bad accident 4 months before and packed a tent and toured up north island. Met a couple of kiwibikers who were obviously put in my path to offer wise counsel. The rest is history. I live one day at a time - I am lucky to follow a 12 step program, it all comes from within. I give thanks on a daily basis for all that I have now. Things that money can't buy. My personal freedom. Freedom from the bondage of self. Peace and Serenity and friends.

Conquiztador

9th January 2008, 12:37

Bit further down the road, little old lady complete with zimmer frame, wobbling along starts to cross the road. Yikes!!!! I went and escorted her across, our town is extremely busy at this time of the year, driving is like dodgems, she did not stand a chance!

You sure that was a suicide attempt??

Blue Velvet

9th January 2008, 12:57

Totally agree - they are what I term "tortured souls".

My friend, who later hung himself, painted a picture another friend (who also hung herself), named 'Tortured soul on life's lonely highway'. People who saw it thought it was ugly and didn't know why I kept it.

Even without the history of said painting, I thought it was an awesome piece of art. It was dark and fiery, acrylic on rough, warped board with a wooden frame from an old style bathroom mirror or window I think.

My fondest memory of this guy is walking the dog belonging to said person who named the painting, lying on our backs on a sports field, smoking, looking up at the clouds.

RIP S and C.

jrandom

9th January 2008, 13:29

People who saw it thought it was ugly and didn't know why I kept it.

You still have it?

Got a photo of it?

Blue Velvet

9th January 2008, 13:38

You still have it?

Got a photo of it?

Still have it. Will try and photograph it for you.

I say 'try' as it's not at my current location... So will require some coordination

Big Dog

9th January 2008, 21:26

I sometimes find myself feeling much lonelier when in a crowd (even of people I know) than on my own. I tend to avoid social gatherings for that reason (and because I invariably end up feeling like a dork).

The trick is to be quiet around the people you know will make you feel a dork and be as active as possible with like minded individuals.

I have a few good friends. Not many fair weather friends.
Never more than I can count on one hand.
If feel really comfy at Kiwibiker events but like a freak with the norms.

Big Dog

9th January 2008, 21:41

Totally agree - they are what I term "tortured souls".
Damnit all out of bling, something about sharing it around.

Sounds to me like you have been your own best friend for a while.

Please give yourself a big hug from me.
To make it authentic though you will need to lift yourself off the ground...

Bikernereid

9th January 2008, 22:25

Hey I am a loner but am sociable. I often know how it is to feel alone when surrounded by people. You are not alone in being alone and don't feel like a dork!!

I sometimes find myself feeling much lonelier when in a crowd (even of people I know) than on my own. I tend to avoid social gatherings for that reason (and because I invariably end up feeling like a dork).

jrandom

9th January 2008, 22:43

You are not alone in being alone and don't feel like a dork!!

If only Ian's doctors had thought to say that to him, eh?

I can see you're destined for a brilliant career in psychiatry.

:niceone:

Conquiztador

9th January 2008, 22:56

Hey I am a loner but am sociable. I often know how it is to feel alone when surrounded by people. You are not alone in being alone and don't feel like a dork!!

Instead of allowing social gatherings to scare you, learn to handle them. You be surprised how much it changes life.
Do a course in public speaking.
Read daily papers so that you are up to speed re what is going on so you can contribute to conversations.
Have an opinion.
Realise that you are interesting! Do you paint, write, ride a bike, compete, help a non-profit organisation, feed homeless kids, save endangered snails, etc?
Wear something that becomes an discussing topic; jewellery, watch, glasses, a different top...
Have something with you that is interesting and you care about: A pin on your collar that is a mark you support a cause, latest technology, an article, a photo...
If you have a problem with drink, DONT DRINK!!
Before you go, have a shower, make your self look nice, put on clothes you consider nice, smell nice (will do wonders for your self esteem)
Have underwear and socks w/o holes!!
Learn to listen. You do not always have to be a contributor.

And remember: Who cares after 100 years.

Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)

10th January 2008, 10:35

Well you're either saved, or you're off to hell, neither of those places requires hope... of course, commit suicide, and you're going to hell anyway... :bye:

Only if you are stupid enough to believe in religion.

Having visited the white light on two occasions (thru asthma) it is the most beautiful and peaceful place.

Conquiztador

10th January 2008, 20:49

A real one.

A few years ago I was together with a girl who confessed to me that she could sense things. She was not sure how it happened. But she was able to sense things other could not.

OK I said. I am a white man and sense nothing. But I believe there is things in this world I have no idea about. So yeah, I believe you.

One evening we went out to have a few drinks with a work mate of hers who had been made redundant. At the pub this work mate had a boyfriend with her. One of those who, no matter what you spoke about, had done that and been there. I spoke alot to her. She was one of those who you want to take in your arms and help, do everything you can to. Her ex, who lived a few houses from me, was not a nice guy. He did not want his boys and he had a habit of putting her in hospital...

We had a few drinks and then all 4 headed home to my g/f's friends house. It had beds for 2 young children and I asked where they were. She told me that they were in Oz with her mum. But she would go and see them soon and they would come back home. And we discussed about that her 2 boys would play soccer in a club I run in the winter.

After about four hours I wanted to go home. My ex did not. And after some waiting (I was the driver) I left her there. One hour later she was dropped home by her friend, who when reversing out from my driveway, broke her mirror.

Next day when we drove to somewhere I went past the friends place to apologize for that she had to bring my now ex g/f home. But my now ex g/f did not want me to go in and apologize. She got quite stroppy about it and told me I would look like a dork and that her friend wanted to be alone. Sadly I allowed her to stop me from going in. But I felt very wrong about it.

Her friend flew to Oz the next morning to see her mum and her boys.

One week later I got to know that she had committed suicide. She had argued with her mum. Then walked in to her mums garage and hang her self. Her boys, who were there, had walked in the next morning to find their mum dead.

I only knew her for a few hours, but she made an impression on me. I wish I had gone in to her that morning. Not sure if it would have changed anything. But I will never know.

And my ex g/f... She did not sense that coming. Nor that she was my ex soon after.

Bikernereid

10th January 2008, 20:54

is the lowest form of wit!!

I am just being honest and to the point, not beating around the bush and giving platitudes

If only Ian's doctors had thought to say that to him, eh?

I can see you're destined for a brilliant career in psychiatry.

:niceone:

Nade

24th January 2008, 23:17

I am impressed. Suacide has to be one of the hardest and most misunderstood topic's / actions to discuss. Untill you have been there it is incomprehensible to anybody else. I have found that talking about it with others that have 'been there' helped. I suffer from BI-polar which after many years of undiagnosed (or more correctly incorrect diagnosis) upheavals and attemps to destroy my life has finally resulted in myself being able to watch for triggers....subtle mood changes, changes in thought patterns etc and allowed me to come off my meds under proper supervised direction. None of this would have been possible if I hadn't been able to talk openly about my attemps on my own life and to some degree listening to those around me while spending time mental health units. Talking to fellow sufferers (call them wot you will) about there own experiences...their own illnesses etc has allowed me to understand more fully my own illness and how to 'combat' it. Im not saying im cured...because I know that at the first inkling...first hiccup in the road...i'll be straight back on the meds untill I can level out. Getting help is not a sign of weakness...to me its a sign of strength..a sign that really you know your not well.
A fellow patient once said to me...'people always call you a coward for attemping or succeeding at suacide.....i rekon it takes balls. To be at a point where your able to take your own life requires its own strength....in a fucked up way'. And ya know...after talking to him for a few days I kinda see where he was coming from....hard to explain....but basically when the minds urge to die overrides the bodys self preservation mechcanisim....and basically it is the mind not the body that wants to die...strange things can happen. The mind is a very fragile thing.....it dosent take much to upset it....drugs...booze...physical damage...mental stress....etc etc etc..the list goes on. Wot makes us different is how we deal with each of those as individuals....everyone is different..we all have differing levels of naturally occuring chemicals and they can get 'out of whack'. its just the way it is...as I see it.
I have attempted suacide on more than one occassion. Gasing, over dose, cutting myself....im not proud of it. But it did act as a catalyst and spur me to keep seeking help till I found wot I needed. GP's although they should always be in the loop are not, in my view, qualified to seriously diagnose a mental illness. My GP for 2 years continually said I was just 'simply' depressed and prescribed anti-depressants....for me being on anti-depressants, and at the levels he was prescribing, was a big no no.....they actually made my illness worse in the fact that I was so 'high' (manic) on them I didn't care about wot I was doing untill it was too late and came crashing down the other side sending me into the deepest darkest period of my life...all the while taking my pills everyday like a good little soldier. Untill I actually attempted suacide I knew nothing of the mental health system and how to get the help i really needed....but by then it was a bit late..the damage was done.
Anyways....I could rant on here for ages and ages....I have written reams of pages on my personal experiences and wot I think are the possible causes and effects of my actions over the past 10 years. I have never showed anyone but Physc's and fellow suffers and I never will show anyone else...cos to my mind no one else would ever understand and probably write me off as a nutter....just like society likes to 'label' people with mental health problems. Hopefully society as a whole is becoming more aware because of people like john kirwin.
:2thumbsup

jazbug5

25th January 2008, 11:38

I GP's although they should always be in the loop are not, in my view, qualified to seriously diagnose a mental illness. My GP for 2 years continually said I was just 'simply' depressed and prescribed anti-depressants....for me being on anti-depressants, and at the levels he was prescribing, was a big no no.....

I would just like to back Nade up on this one. My Dad is bi-polar and we recently discovered that his d*ckhead GP had taken him off Lithium without consulting his notes or referring him to a psychiatrist. (As well as ignoring all the signs of prostate cancer until he was in such agony he went private.. no, I'm not a fan.)

The result was that we nearly lost him and my mother.. well, I don't really want to have to spell it out. Dad is now hospitalised and Mum devastated. I will never trust a GP again with anything serious- but would particularly advise people with mental illness to see a specialist.

vifferman

25th January 2008, 12:12

I ... would particularly advise people with mental illness to see a specialist.
The trouble is this: usually you have to get a referral from your GP, so you're dependent on him/her agreeing that you need to see one, and referring you to the right one.
Secondly, you have no way of telling whether the specialist is any good for you. It's not just a matter of whether they are good at what they do, it's also a question of compatibility. The last one I saw was too old, and had preconceived ideas which were wrong. The one before that didn't offer me any real help in terms of suggestions for managing things or whatever. Both were more oriented toward management by medication than looking at things more holistically - the big picture.

It IS a big picture: lifestyle, attitudes, diet, history, neurochemistry, environment, etc etc. Specialists specialise - usually picking on neurochemistry or history/attitudes. Medication or psychobabble.

Joni

25th January 2008, 12:22

The trouble is this: usually you have to get a referral from your GP, so you're dependent on him/her agreeing that you need to see one, and referring you to the right oneAnd even when he/she sends you to a specialist you cannot 100% be assured that they will get it right.

We were told 100% that my father needed electroshock therapy to treat his problems.

The day he had that done, was the beginning of the end.

DMNTD

25th January 2008, 12:26

Your GP is OBLIGED to refer you to a specialist if you ask them to.

vifferman

25th January 2008, 14:28

Your GP is OBLIGED to refer you to a specialist if you ask them to.
I did not know that.
However, my point was that your average GP would probably discuss it with you, and might end up talking you out of it, if you started off along the lines of, "Look, I'm not feeling very good, and think seeing a specialist might help."

DMNTD

25th January 2008, 14:30

I did not know that.
However, my point was that your average GP would probably discuss it with you, and might end up talking you out of it, if you started off along the lines of, "Look, I'm not feeling very good, and think seeing a specialist might help."

Correct...have had certain GP's try that with me too. More than a little frustrating until I was informed of my rights.

007XX

25th January 2008, 14:39

Correct...have had certain GP's try that with me too. More than a little frustrating until I was informed of my rights.

And you hit the nail on the head right there...Knowing your rights is very important when you are dealing with a new doctor / lawyer/ specialist of whatever that you do not have an established trust with...

I have gone to the same GP for the last 13 years and refuse to go see anyone else, as anytime I've had to (like on weekends, going to A & E :thud:), I've had nothing but problems.

My GP is absolutely fantastic and he has seen me through depression, my son's early ADD signs and many other things...never has he made a wrong call nor taken anything for granted. He'll check everything and let's me know about my options in a unbiaised way.

My point: they are not all bad, you just got to find the right one. So get second and third or fourth opinion until your satisfied with the doctor.

Nade

25th January 2008, 17:51

My point: they are not all bad, you just got to find the right one. So get second and third or fourth opinion until your satisfied with the doctor.

Exactly.....keep trying till your satisfied your getting the help you need/ want. You have to be 'happy' within yourself that your getting the help you need before you can begin the climb.

jazbug5

26th January 2008, 03:23

Look, I know there are good GPs out there. The point I was making was that they do not generally know enough to prescribe properly for very serious mental illness such as bi-polar. It's very common for people to be given anti-depressants by GPs when they aren't even depressed- and as Nade found, they can trigger mania in bi-polar patients. Something even the 'good' GP at my parents' practice didn't know about when I spoke to him.
'Luckily' my dad got sectioned before the meds he'd been prescribed had a chance to take effect.

I know there are also arrogant and incompetent specialists out there- but you still stand a better chance with an average trick cyclist than an average GP. You wouldn't go to a GP for chemotherapy, would you?

As for ECT: I hate it too, and am having great difficulty with the fact that my father is being subjected to it yet again on top of everything else he is having to deal with. However it's a different experience from twenty years ago, the last time he was bad enough to 'need' it. They say it's changed, and they seem to be proceeding with more caution than before.
They've persuaded him it's best, and ultimately it is his decision as he feels he'll get better more quickly with it than without it.

Unfortunately, when someone is ill they tend not to insist upon their rights. So if you've got a close family member or friend who is ill, please think about attending the GP with them to back them up, or encourage them to change doctors if the GP is not sympathetic. I wish we had before it had got to this stage.

Bikernereid

26th January 2008, 04:21

In my humble opinion ECT should not be used unless in dire circumstances. Although I do not know the situation your father was in I think for the most part it is barbaric. I have heard of a patient who after ECT stabbed his psychiatrist and killed him so it obviously didn't work for him!

I would always suggest a second opinion, I know it is difficult but at the end of the day an individuals mental health is the most important thing in the world.

And even when he/she sends you to a specialist you cannot 100% be assured that they will get it right.

We were told 100% that my father needed electroshock therapy to treat his problems.

The day he had that done, was the beginning of the end.

Korumba

3rd February 2008, 15:06

We all know or knew someone like this!!

One day, when I was a freshman in high school,
I saw a kid from my class was walking home from school.
His name was Kyle.
It looked like he was carrying all of his books.
I thought to myself, 'Why would anyone bring home all his books on a Friday?
He must really be a nerd.'
I had quite a weekend planned (parties and a football game with my friends tomorrow afternoon), so I shrugged my shoulders and went on.
As I was walking, I saw a bunch of kids running toward him.
They ran at him, knocking all his books out of his arms and tripping him so he landed in the dirt.
His glasses went flying, and I saw them land in the grass about ten feet from him
He looked up and I saw this terrible sadness in his eyes
My heart went out to him. So, I jogged over to him as he crawled around looking for his glasses, and I saw a tear in his eye.
As I handed him his glasses, I said, 'Those guys are jerks. '
They really should get lives.
' He looked at me and said, 'Hey thanks!'
There was a big smile on his face.
It was one of those smiles that showed real gratitude.
I helped him pick up his books, and asked him where he lived.
As it turned out, he lived near me, so I asked him why I had never seen him before.
He said he had gone to private school before now.
I would have never hung out with a private school kid before.
We talked all the way home, and I carried some of his books
He turned out to be a pretty cool kid.
I asked him if he wanted to play a little football with my friends
He said yes.
We hung out all weekend and the more I got to know Kyle, the more I liked him, and my friends thought the same of him.
Monday morning came, and there was Kyle with the huge stack of books again.
I stopped him and said, 'Boy, you are gonna really build some serious muscles with this pile of books everyday!
' He just laughed and handed me half the books.
Over the next four years, Kyle and I became best friends.
When we were seniors we began to think about college.
Kyle decided on Georgetown and I was going to Duke.
I knew that we would always be friends, that the miles would never be a problem.
He was going to be a doctor and I was going for business on a football scholarship.
Kyle was valedictorian of our class.
I teased him all the time about being a nerd.
He had to prepare a speech for graduation.
I was so glad it wasn't me having to get up there and speak
Graduation day, I saw Kyle.
He looked great.
He was one of those guys that really found himself during high school.
He filled out and actually looked good in glasses.
He had more dates than I had and all the girls loved him.
Boy, sometimes I was jealous!
Today was one of those days.
I could see that he was nervous about his speech.
So, I smacked him on the back and said, 'Hey, big guy, you'll be great!'
He looked at me with one of those looks (the really grateful one) and smiled.
' Thanks,' he said.
As he started his speech, he cleared his throat, and began
'Graduation is a time to thank those who helped you make it through those tough years.
Your parents, your teachers, your siblings, maybe a coach..but mostly your friends...
I am here to tell all of you that being a friend to someone is the best gift you can give them.
I am going to tell you a story.'
I just looked at my friend with disbelief as he told the story of the first day we met.
He had planned to kill himself over the weekend.
He talked of how he had cleaned out his locker so his Mom wouldn't have to do it later and was carrying his stuff home.
He looked hard at me and gave me a little smile.
'Thankfully, I was saved.
My friend saved me from doing the unspeakable.'
I heard the gasp go through the crowd as this handsome, popular boy told us all about his weakest moment.
I saw his Mom and dad looking at me and smiling that same grateful smile.
Not until that moment did I realize it's depth.
Never underestimate the power of your actions.
With one small gesture you can change a person's life.

rudolph

22nd March 2008, 19:05

would a pirson die from a OD of fentonol, synthetic morphine?

Usarka

22nd March 2008, 19:24

would a pirson die from a OD of fentonol, synthetic morphine?

The majority of attempted drug overdoses result in a painful (and embarrasing) experience, but not death.

Don't know on the specifics of this one, but if you have some spare send it my way.

If you are asking because you are worried about someone it might pay to remove it. If you are asking for yourself then give one of these numbers a call now:

Lifeline: 0800 543 354

The Depression Helpline: 0800 111 757

98tls

22nd March 2008, 20:10

Have lost someone very close to me through them taking there own life,havent read any posts but the first and no desire to go into details on here but will help via pms if you really have concern about someone/something.

Bren

22nd March 2008, 22:01

About 5 years ago I lived next door to this old geezer, he must have been in his 70s. I was a neighbor to him for about 3 years. I talked to him occasionally mainly about gardening as his garden was always real nice. A few times I shared some drams of whiskey with him or the odd beer. Well we talked some and I found out that his wife had died many years before and his family were always too busy to see the poor old boy.
Well one night I was in bed and I heard a car idling outside, but it seemed like it was coming from a few doors down and I figured some bogan was working on his car. Then i got a bit suspicous as there was no revving of the engine, just a quiet drone so I went outside to see what was going on. Sure enough my neighbor was in the garage and in his car trying to gas himself. I yelled out to my (ex) partner to call the ambulance then broke his door down with a brick and used same brick to get into car as he had locked himself in. Whiskey bottle fell out as I dragged him outside...his pulse was weak and breathing shallow so I tried CPR...he died a few minutes after the ambulance arrived. They tied their best but was too late.

Anyway I heard later on from the services that he had just previously been diagnosed with prostrate cancer...poor old bugger...may he rest in peace...

Trudes

22nd March 2008, 22:08

That makes me sad to hear stories like that, happens a lot though, often only hear about young people committing suicide, but an awful lot of old people (especially old men) commit suicide, mainly due to loneliness and like this old fella, being diagnosed with a terminal illness, really makes me :( another reason I think euthanasia is a good thing, if we can give our old or sick pets some dignity at the end, why can't we do the same for the people we love?:weep:

The Lone Rider

23rd March 2008, 00:34

Wow, the suicide thread lives on!

For those of you (all one of you) who sent me a PM thinking I was kicking the bucket... hahaha.

I'm far to busy trying to drink and score to kick the bucket. And I haven't even written out a bucket list. Life sucks some time, but hit the booze and pass the sandman, hang over gone you feel somewhat relieved.

Tis a good thread - i'm glad it picked up again.

Sad or not, i think sharing experiences of this sort helps to keep our minds fresh.

terbang

23rd March 2008, 04:27

Mate of mine did it 25 odd years ago. Obviously no turning back from an 8mm mauser discharged into his mouth. So he meant it and there were few signs beforehand..! I often think of him and mull over what he has missed out on over the years. His Mrs moved on, had kids and his brothers all did well in life too. His parents passed away after enjoying many grandkids, but not as many as they could have. His family and friends were all, each an every one of us, scarred by it in some sort of way. I am certain that he would have been sure that suicide was the right decision at that time and considered our reactions as he was a fairly deep thinking sort of a guy. But he never took the opportunity to gather some hindsight. I often wonder, if he had just given hindsight an opportunity and seen his friends and family through the years, if his views on the concept of suicide would be different now.?

BiK3RChiK

23rd March 2008, 06:12

Bren

23rd March 2008, 09:50

I must pop over the fence to have a good long visit with my old neighbour! I asked him yesterday how he was, and he said 'Oh, you know, waiting to die'!!!! His wife has in the past year gone into a rest home and I think he gets a bit lonely...

Thanks for that guys!

I wish I had visited my neighbour more often, but then i guess with cancer sometimes people just wanna go no matter what. society now days in general just does not give a shit about the old...and that sucks

The Lone Rider

23rd March 2008, 10:21

I wish I had visited my neighbour more often, but then i guess with cancer sometimes people just wanna go no matter what. society now days in general just does not give a shit about the old...and that sucks

I don't even know my neighbors. Say hi to the guy next door, and the boy racer dicks across the drive don't give me grief anymore since the day they was reving their cars and I got up, wheeled my bike back out of the garage, turned it on and went BOOOMVVVRRRRRRMMMMMM... that shut the fuckers up and no problems since.

However, my mum is dying and I make an effort to see her when I can. Being someone that lives alone and only one relative around I know better than to leave her to herself.

Someone needs to do a statistical study on how many suicides or deaths due to carelessness have loneliness as a prime contributing factor.

WierNixie

23rd March 2008, 12:58

Totally agree - they are what I term "tortured souls".
<snip>

This post is brave! Well done for getting through it all, it must have been very difficult.

Some of the most interesting things that I have read on this post are:

1. Talk to someone. That is one of the most difficult things to do, most people look at you as if you either totally mad or a loser if you need to talk about something like this. It is also uncomfortable for the person that you might try to talk to. The 'harden up' approach is the most common reaction. I think that you need to consider who you CAN talk to.

2. Talk to your doctor. Discussed in some depth on the thread, but it can also be quite difficult, especially if you don't have a doctor who you can actually talk to and trust to make the correct diagnosis etc. Case in point, being given anti-depressant drugs if you are not actually depressed.

3. Use your support system. Many people just don't have one, and have coped without one for years.

4. Having someone inexperienced dealing with the issue. That can be the person you deal with, the doctor, the person assigned from the crisis team. All the training in the world often does not translate into real life empathy or understanding of what issues a patient might be dealing with.

I have worked as a nurse in a war and in addition to nursing soldiers, have been exposed to a number of suicides which were largely driven by the circumstances of the war itself. All the book learning in the world cannot prepare you for what you need to do, or who you need to be to understand soldiers (expecially conscripts), the way they are taught to think and to react, and how they need to be to cope with and to get through life.

The place where I came from is voilent and crime ridden. I have been car jacked, beaten and left for dead. I have witnessed a murder and have had two deaths in my family from this voilence.

The interesting thing, is that through all this, I coped, I worked and went on with life. It was only when I was safe in New Zealand, that Post Traumatic Stress Disorder kicked in. Only when I was safe did I want to end my own life.

There is no sense in any of it. It is no wonder that others shake thier heads in disbelief and think WHY? It is no wonder that it all seems so pointless from the outside looking in. And most of all it is no wonder that it seems so very selfish and unwarranted.

"... there is something you must always remember: you are braver than you believe, stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think.”

kevfromcoro

23rd March 2008, 13:28

Interesting thread LS. I ..think everone has comtenplated this at some stage in there life..its a bit up and down sometimes..have had a few mates go by the wayside...not good.allways remeber..... ..we went to a mates place on night and he was trying to do it..a year latter he was a most happy chap..think it how a person feels at the time..but things do change.
I HOPE

Ixion

23rd March 2008, 15:04

,,..his pulse was weak and breathing shallow so I tried CPR...he died a few minutes after the ambulance arrived. They tied their best but was too late.

Anyway I heard later on from the services that he had just previously been diagnosed with prostrate cancer...poor old bugger...may he rest in peace...

Would he have thanked you, had you arrived 10 minutes earlier, and 'saved' him, d'y' think?

Why assume that everyone who decideds that the negatives of being alive outweigh the positives is doo-lalley and needs to be 'saved'.

Being old is , for many, a really shit experience (trust me on this). If someone whose life every day is no more than pain misery and limitation, and who , correctly, sees only worse ahead, decides that it's not worth it, who are you or I to say he's wrong?

Sure , not every old person has a miserable life. But for those that do, I don't see that anyone ahs the right to prolong unwanted agony.

jrandom

23rd March 2008, 15:23

Being old is , for many, a really shit experience (trust me on this). If someone whose life every day is no more than pain misery and limitation, and who , correctly, sees only worse ahead, decides that it's not worth it, who are you or I to say he's wrong?

I'm inclined to tentatively agree with Ixion, here.

It's interesting to note that older folk who suicide generally choose effective methods (http://www.suicidemethods.net/) and have a high success rate.

G7_vE2-Jfqk

Subike

23rd March 2008, 17:02

KiwiBiker?

as strange as it may seem to those of you who have leed leves that could be concidered as normal.
If I had been born 3 decades later than I was , I could have been diagnosed with adhd or whatever that attention disorder/hypoactive state is, that too many of our kids have today,, anyway,,
Born to a well off functional family of 7 children, no money problems, deamed as a "normal" family of the times...I became a truant from school, wanderd the street at all hours and eventually rolled into the crime scene at the age of 10 - 11. A 70's bad boy
So corrective training, then borstal, then prison, i was the epitomy of an unwanted member of society. Not a nice person
Even to the point of being called a "Habitual Criminal" by a judge at age 19!
Whats this got to do with suicide? Let alone Kiw Biker?

I was of no use to anyone, black sheep of the family, and had joined the ranks of a Biker Gang in the 80"s.
The eternal story continues with the finding of a good woman, who became the mother of my 2 sons, and life seemed to be going well, no crime, no jail, acually enjoyed going to work for money!

So there I was in what society called a "normal" home, with wife kids, dog and mortage. Rehabilitated!!

After 13 years of uneven normal hard life, the event happened.

She decided that I was not the "man of her life" anymore and moved on. Devistating.

Thus the reference to my earlier life, How did I deal with this rejection, after a lifetime of professional rejections by society? I still had a home, 2 sons to care for but no partner to relate to. Things were bad. Reasons for continuing in the real world were limited to two boys who needed a father. I was aware the stress was building, something could snap, and I was the weak link. Suicide was lurking...it thoughts starting to evolve in my head.

I removed all medications from the house, just in case. Talked to my neigbour to keep a casual eye on me and tried to carry on.
Xmass was terribile, 2 boys Xmas day wanting their mom...she didnt care
Because of my past and the structure of the insurance and mortage companies, my name was unable to have been put on any papers in reference to the house.
The killer came a week after xmass. I was given 1 weeks notice to leave the house, with the boys, by my recently seperated wife. By notification of a court order no less!
I snapped. Trashed the house, distroyed everthing I had built into that home. ended up siting in the entrance with a slashed wrist crying...it was the end for me... I could see no future at that time
The police arrived, I was arrested for wilfull damage! Patched up in CHCH police station and trown in a cell....remember
I was a convicted crim with a serious record, and A biker to boot. No simpathy for this "bad boy"
Suicide was a very real option for me. What did I have left. I had done what society had deamed to be the right thng, and had been shit on. I didnt want to go back to jail..it was a real option..no home, abandoned by my wife, kids in welfare abandoned by ther mother, no money...she held the accounts. What was left. I could have ended it that night. Thankfully I was in a police caell. with only my own thoughts unable to completete the act

Easy? no fucking hard. Because of my hypo whatever, continuous argument were going on in my head. The pain was something I never want to experiance again. To those who have had that mental pain will understand its force. To those who have not , I pray you never experiance it.

But I survived. Albet it took time and had work, but I had now two sons in a boys home who needed somebody to get them out, fed cloth house and teach them how to live.
It took 10 years to do it, but I became self employed, got my sons out of welfare, rented a new house, and we made it togeather. I even met a new lady, had a wonderfull relationship, all the right things happened. Found enough money to buy a Bike. My boys got jobs, their own ladies and have given me three grandchildren.

believe it or not...the shit happened again. Nov last year my second lady walked out after 13 years!!!
WTF. I had just started a new job and things were looking as if they were going to improve!
Rejection, that bug set in again. what to do, how do I pull myself up now.
My saving grace was the old Yamaha in the shed and Kiwi Biker
If I could be accepted into the ranks of this website, and the people who I was going to be able to ride with, socialize with and talk bullshit with.. then that was the community that I needed.
It is honest in that it has all types of people, from the kindly to the abusive. I had lived my whole childhood and teen years in institutions with that sort of person
So you lot are normal to me. Thanks.
I know that If i had not involved myself with Kwki Biker, that scuicide would come knocking at my door.
I live alone, 80k from CHCH. there are not many people out here to associate with, so a confidant is not to be had to talk to.
But here, within the walls of KB I can. And the ralleys and rides give me that wild life I have always enjoyed, but inside the law.
Suicide is not an option, but a thought and excuse for not trying, I look at each day as a pluss, the grass is green and maybe tomorrow the clouds will part and I can ride my Bike.
Suicide, depression and rejection are having a hard fight with me. but the struggle is worth the smiles 1 day in 7

Skyryder

23rd March 2008, 21:28

I'm not too sure I agree that this subject should not be discussed here on KB. I have very little to say on this as my experiance on this is very limited but for those that do and can treat the subject with the respect it deserves then they should be free to do so. Bottomline on this is that sucide is too often swept under the carpet. It needs to be adressed if someone here needs to discuss this. I don't belive they should be criticised for bring this topic up.

Skyryder

mstriumph

25th March 2008, 12:30

..................
But here, within the walls of KB I can. .................
Suicide is not an option, but a thought and excuse for not trying, I look at each day as a plus, the grass is green and maybe tomorrow the clouds will part and I can ride my Bike.....................

yep - KiwiBiker!! ;)

mstriumph

25th March 2008, 12:35

.....................she had committed suicide. She had argued with her mum. Then walked in to her mums garage and hang her self. Her boys, who were there, had walked in the next morning to find their mum dead..........................

i know it's not pc to make comment on someone else's reaction to misery - but, to me, there's NO set of circumstances that permits a parent to risk that - it's beyond wrong - it's inexcusable

Skyryder

25th March 2008, 19:41

is the lowest form of wit!!

I would not even rate it that high. Sarcasm's purpose is to hurt and humiliate.

Skyryder

BiK3RChiK

27th March 2008, 04:41

Well, I've popped over the fence a few times lately to see my old neighbour and I'm going to do it more often!

The last time I went over, as I walked through his carport we had quite a big earthquake!! I thought the whole thing was going to come down on me!!! We had a good laugh about that....

Mostly, we talk about gardening as I like gardening and so does he. Except, his garden looks way better than mine! We are going to swap some plants and stuff. Usually we end up swapping veges.

I'm not going to let him fall to loneliness!

DougieNZ

27th March 2008, 08:11

Ryder

18th April 2008, 17:43

...I have been on both sides of the fence, sometimes at the same time.
The first time I seriously weighted my options in this was about a year after I moved to Auckland. It weighed heavily in my heart mind and soul for four years. Even though there were periods of days or even weeks there was not a month it did not come in to my head. Every month it got so there was less reason to procceed.

One sentence got me through that, "this too shall pass"....

so is this passing yet? :hug: always try to keep ur chin up bub!...every now and then life brings you some good surprizes and blessings that make everything else seem a little more worth it. you know what i mean :yes:

Ryder

18th April 2008, 17:56

We have all been touched in some way by suicide.

I have my own story to tell, and I might one day.

Suffice to say that I used to think that suicide was a totally selfish act. That was until I became involved with one, and realised it was more about a dark snapshot in life where there seems to be no other way out.

Just writing to say big Ups to those that have told their stories in here. And big ups to he Kiwibiker community for discussing this subject in such a responsible way.

i cant honestly say i have ever been suicidal before but i have had moments where i felt very desperate and down at times. for instance when my brother died...i felt so depressed and lost. but i hung in there. for me i felt it was what i needed to do.

i have been touched by suicide in the sense that my friend and colleague committed suicide not long ago. the hardest part when in this situation is the not knowing why. it leaves you questioning yourself about what you couldve done to change the outcome/stop it from happening.

people should always try to remember that its always unexpected and usually those you never wouldve dreamed would do it. all it takes are a few nasty words or whatever. so treat people the way you would want to be treated...with kindness, respect and curteousy.

kiwifruit

18th April 2008, 18:20

My best friend killed himself a few years ago.

I met Antony the first day i moved to Chirstchurch, he was working at the petrol station i bowled into asking for a job. His cbr250rrrrrr was proudly parked by the door. I ended up working there, Antony and I hit it off straight away, he was like me in many ways, a very sensitive man. He was 2 days older than me.
We talked about everything, as ya do. Rode all over the show... i was a bit gutted how his lil 250 was as quick as my impulse.
Antony came to me one day (about 12-18 months after first meeting him) with "fantastic news", his girlfriend was pregnant! He was so happy about it all. He found out a few days later that she was "just testing him".... he was gutted. We spoke about it at length, as ya do.
A few days later i left Chistchurch, moved back up to the north island. My last night in town Antony came out to dinner with my family who had come down to help move my belongings. He gave me a long hug after the dinner, i remember thinking it was a bit odd.... "i will see you again bro" i said to him... We said our goodbyes.
Another few days pass and i get a call from my old boss. Antony had hung himself in the garage of his first (very nice) home he had not long worked very hard to fund and build etc.

No one saw it coming.

firefighter

18th April 2008, 18:32

seen a couple, not fun cutting them down...... had a mate whos chick friend the stoopid.....erm killed herself, in her parents garage, engine running with hose through window, no note, just before exams (nothing to do with them I think) her poor parents will never have closure as to why, and they found her too, and of course all her poor friends had to think about that shit during their end of year (school c) exams......glad she wasn't my friend, a real shame such a waste, good parents and everything going for her, makes me think she was trying to make a martyr of herself....

martybabe

18th April 2008, 20:05

I read the first post or two when this came out then went away.Too uncomfortable I guess but I've sat and read about 80% of it today,still uncomfortable but I'm glad to see it was discussed well.

I,d just like to add a little for those with the why questions and those with the selfish act opinions, a recurring and understandable theme throughout this thread.

As a returned person, Hitchers post number aint gotta clue,was the closest here for me.Reason, logic,selfishness even reality have no meaning and no bearing in the place suicidal people live, these are the queeries,arguments,opinions and rationale of what shall we say (normal) sane happy people?

I dont want to give any details,they don't really matter,I just want to say when I was in that place it was black. Your worst nightmare black, so dark words could not penetrate it, no rationale,no reallity,no peace.You can't see the people around you,you can't see blue skies,you can't feel anything but utter anguish and total solitude.There is no family,no job,no traffic noise no green fields.Nothing,tottaly nothing but absolute all consuming pain and blackness, a living Hell on earth and you are most deffinatley all alone.

You'd have to choose to be selfish or cowardly, there's no choosing here, It's a place for people that are powerless,helpless and lost.

Conquiztador

18th April 2008, 22:31

martybabe, please tell, how did you manage to get out of that dark place?

Bikernereid

19th April 2008, 08:19

As someone who has been in that dark place, taken action, failed but now loves life I would recommend the book 'Veronika decides to die' by Paulo Coelho.

martybabe

19th April 2008, 13:24

martybabe, please tell, how did you manage to get out of that dark place?

Good independent non judgemental people that took my hand and walked alongside me for a while and fought on my side when I could fight no more.

Talk to someone.

For the babies; I remember. x :hug:

Usarka

20th June 2008, 18:53

A sheer stroke of brilliance on my part perhaps or luck, but a tip: if you know someone who might be showing signs of being suicidle get them to promise to call you if it gets to that stage.

I've just spent the last 3 days helping a mate.

Emotionally draining. Need :drinkup: wish had :doobey:.

Timber020

20th June 2008, 22:33

in the states a tree crew were working on the side of a road with a large chipper when some guy (who may have had some issues) ran up and dived into the chipper head first. he didnt go through to the blades but the feed wheels messed him up pretty good.

thehollowmen

21st June 2008, 14:48

Mental illness can be a chronic, and sometimes terminal disease.

There is a big difference here between people with a terminal disease or some chronic ailment for which there is no relief from pain who choose to end it all, versus some morose/self-absorbed teenager with their whole life in front of them who is just going through a "phase".

Hitcher

21st June 2008, 17:47

Mental illness can be a chronic, and sometimes terminal disease.

I didn't say anything to the contrary.

alanzs

21st June 2008, 19:30

Had a good friend who hung himself. He had been involved in a drunk driving accident, as the driver, in which four people were killed. After a few years of overwhelming guilt, he couldn't take it anymore and ended his life.

Pedrostt500

21st June 2008, 20:16

How do I say this, The wort suicides are the ones that leave no note or reason for their death, that absolutly destroys families and friends it leaves you with the feeling " was it me who pushed them over the edge".
no sucide is pleasant, I have lost a few friends over the years, some of them I would never have geussed at the time that they would remotly take their own lives, but they did.
I have been to the edge and have had to fight realy hard the dark deppresion that I was going through at the time not to end it all, this has happened a few times in my life, during these times I have been unable to seek help from friends and family, I belived that they would not fully understand where I was at and what I was going through.
One thing I have learned is there are always options, some of them are silly options but there are always options and there is always more than one option.
If you are suicidal your local hospital is an option, they will not turn you away, they will put you in touch with those who can professionaly help you.
If you have had a lucky life and have never known deppresion, or mental illness, then dont patronise or make fun of those who do have to put up with deppresion and or mental illness, we dont need your wise cracks and stupid remarks, keep them to your self, if you dont understand or it scares you then shut the fuck up and be thought an idiot rather than opening your mouth and removing all reasonable doubt.
If a friend or family member comes to you for help because they are suicidal, dont tell them that you know how they fell, you dont you arnt them, dont tell them to harden up, or to get tough, or get on the booze. They are going through one of the hardest battels that they probably will ever fight, if you dont know what to do then help them seek profesional help, dont sweep it under the carpet.