Braking in the wet

[TOTO]

I know there are threads about that and I've read them, just sharing my experience here...

Today I was on my way back from uni and it had just started the rain, maybe 5 mins ago, decided to go to the bakery but on the intersection I locked up the rear wheel and it gave me a scare coz I wasnt pressing on the back brake hard and it was totally unexpected. Skidded for maybe half a metre.

Anyway afterwords I decided that it would be a good idea to go to an empty carpark and practice braking in the wet.

Went to the empty carpark 2 hours ago and started practicing stopping - front brake only , back brake only, 2 brakes at the same time. It was not as slipery as when It just started to rain , actually I can Say that I had more grip when it was soking wet that when it just started raining.

My special mission was to see at what stage does the back wheel lock, so I was playing mainly with the back brake. I tried at different speeds: 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50Km/h Tried two methods of pushing the brake too: one is constant push all the way doun and the other I tried was "pumping action" - pressing and releasing the brake.

Tried braking on 2 different surfaces too, one was just the normal type of road, the smooth one , not the rough one, and also one which was more like smooth couble stones(dont know the name exactly, but the carpark I did it is the carpark of the North Shore Event Centre)

Here are the things I found:

1. Half wet surface is most likely to lock the back wheel than fully soakeing wet surface.

2. Pumping the Back brake seemed to help me not locking the back, not sure if its always like that but this is what I observed.

3. If you lock the back brake at loower speed you slide less than if you lock the wheeel at higher speed :laugh:

4. Locking the back wheel standing straight is more managable than if you are a bit on an angle.

5. If you lock the back wheel and you are holding the front hard and keeping it straight, even if the back slides like a russian gymnast on ice skates it will eventually come back , even if still locked till the end (I'm sure ppl can disagree here :girlfight:)

6. The tires still have about 80% traction compared to dry road so leaning over in a corner is a matter of confidence:niceone:, where as in the first 15 min of rain I'd say you have maximum 60% (estimation)

7. people walking their dogs are quite entertained watching a biker skidding around in the carpark :corn:

8. Doing the wet weather excersisses boosted my confidence, now I have some Idea about what to expect.


So there you go. These are my observation from todays wet practice.
If you have any coments, sugestions for other wet weather excersises, or thing you've found out about wet weather BRAKING in particular I'll be glad to hear them. :doobey:

TOTO :doobey:

[FJRider]

We dont worry about the rain down here. We get it twice a year, no prob's

[MickDastardly]

Jeez wish i had done a bit of wet weather practice, I have totally no confidence in the wet I ride like Im pushing a trolley, still didnt stop me from going for a slide to work this morning :Oops:

cheers for sharing your tips!

[rphenix]

I know there are threads about that and I've read them, just sharing my experience here...

6. The tires still have about 80% traction compared to dry road so leaning over in a corner is a matter of confidence:niceone:, where as in the first 15 min of rain I'd say you have maximum 60% (estimation)

TOTO :doobey:

I'll sort of agree with this one... Your tyres will probably let you lean over way more than you might first think till you build your confidence but I don't know about 80% traction I think when its first starts to rain i.e. not enough to clean the crap of the seal you can loose quite a bit!

One trick I learnt ages ago is if I want to keep my normal speed up in the wet I tend to lean my body of the side more and keep the bike a little more upright you seem to get around the corner just as easily and it feels "safer" of course this can make recovery a little harder if you mis-calculate as you have to shift your weight back again but it certainly works for me.

[Ixion]

1. Yes. The first bit of wetness is very slippery because of shit (rubber, oil, dust) mixing with the water. This (a) more slippery than plain water and (b) the sipes in your tyre can't easily pump it away. After a bit the shit gets flushed away .
2."pumping" has a mixed press, Basically it just helps avoid too heavy an application, and thus lockup. But on the other hand you lose a lot of braking time, because , in effect you are only breaking half the time. There is a more sophisticated approach called pulse or cadence breaking which in theory overcomes this. On a rear wheel I'm not convinced it's worth bothering. In theory ther eis also a risk of a high side by locking and then releasing the wheel.
3. But a low speed slide gives you less time to sort yourself out,
4. Yes. A locked rear is no big deal if you are upright and straight, just release the pressure a bit. Try to avoid braking at all if you are not. Obviously sometimes the real world intervenes. almost all modern road bikes, IMHO have back brakes which are far too powerful. There is no justification for a disk brake on a road bike, except maybe a heavy crusier.
5. No disagreement here. It will indeed straighten out. But don't hold the bars hard- firmly yes, but don't fight the bike. Just concentrate on keeping upright and straight, and if the rear fishtails a bit, let it.
6. Um. Yes. But be very careful here. Overall, traction is not all that much reduced in the wet, with GOOD modern tyres . However there are some still out there where wet grip is MUCH less than dry. The other dangerous thing is that in the wet there is a far greater variability of traction. This corner may be 80% of dry. But the next one could be down to 50%. and white lines and manhole covers can be down to 10%.
7. Next time get someone to pass a hat around
8. Well done. Fore prepared is well prepared.

[Unit]

Must go and try this on the 14, can anyone point me to a carpark big enough? :whistle:

[C_A]

cool. practice is always good.
I rode home yesterday in rather dismal conditions. had pretty low visibility.

I was more concerned about stading water on the motorway, having never really encountered it before. I've ridden a few times in heavy rain but never really come across more than patches about half a metre in diameter that were easily avoidable. going along the wellington motorway there was almost two lanes covered in parts.
what's the safest thing to do if you start aquaplaning at highways speeds?

[Cache Wraith]

1. Yes. The first bit of wetness is very slippery because of shit (rubber, oil, dust) mixing with the water. This (a) more slippery than plain water and (b) the sipes in your tyre can't easily pump it away. After a bit the shit gets flushed away .


Fully agree. The most dangerous time in terms of slippery surface is the first rain after a dry spell. Particularly if it is light rain. All the recently deposited oil, diesel, coolant just rises to the surface. This goes equally for cages too. Avoid the road if at all possible until a decent rain clears it.

[Trudes]

I was told that you should lightly apply the brakes occasionally in the wet to help to keep them a bit drier, so when you need to use them they won't need to scrub off a surface of water first and they don't work so you apply more brake but then they dry and grab suddenly. not sure if that was understandable... or correct, just what I was told.

[TOTO]

Fully agree. The most dangerous time in terms of slippery surface is the first rain after a dry spell. Particularly if it is light rain. All the recently deposited oil, diesel, coolant just rises to the surface. This goes equally for cages too. Avoid the road if at all possible until a decent rain clears it.

I agree too, today before my practice , when I had my first skid , the road felt like GLASS , I was soooo nervoius :mellow:

[johnnyflash]

Jeez wish i had done a bit of wet weather practice, I have totally no confidence in the wet I ride like Im pushing a trolley, still didnt stop me from going for a slide to work this morning :Oops:

cheers for sharing your tips!

Having no confidence probably makes you a smart rider :-) it means you will take precautions, and you can still have confidence in your ability, just not Over Confidence, which will kill you :-)

There is no such thing in the wet of trying to predict exactly what amount of grip you might have, our roads a a changing scene from one minute to the next, depending on what passed over it and what they left behind, as well as rain sun seal debri etc.
the smart scenario is to treat every meter of seal as different, scan the road all the time, looking for shiny/greasy bits helps access the grip, but many traps you wont see, when oil / deisel / paint / gets heated byt the sun and mixes with water its darn near invisable at 4 meters, from my experience there is no 100 % g/teed grip in any situation, remember most road tyres are a balance of tred/compound for all riding situations, not specialist tyres for specialist conditions for the race track.
Only thing that works is to follow the basic rules, brake while upright, read the corner correctly, take good lines that allow a margin for a little movement, and of course practice....
stopping in all sorts of situations, dry, drizzle, rain, flood.
Always look at the point where you want to end up particulaly when emergency brake/evasion. Because as sure as hell you will get caught out by bad surfaces/grip/situations at the worst possible time..

[Ixion]

cool. practice is always good.
I rode home yesterday in rather dismal conditions. had pretty low visibility.

I was more concerned about stading water on the motorway, having never really encountered it before. I've ridden a few times in heavy rain but never really come across more than patches about half a metre in diameter that were easily avoidable. going along the wellington motorway there was almost two lanes covered in parts.
what's the safest thing to do if you start aquaplaning at highways speeds?

True aquaplaning, a wedge of water building up under the tyre, so it ries on a wave, is very rare on a motorcycle, because of the rounded profile of the tyre.

However significantly deep water can cause drag which can affect handling, and running water will tend to pull the front wheel. And the effect of a wheel dropping into a rut or hole full of water can be very unpredictable.

and I guess with modern crusiers having tyres almost as wide and flat as a car, they may start to suffer the same way as a car.

If it did occur , I guess the approach would be the same as a car. Upright straight, gently decelerate, all smooth.

[Ixion]

I was told that you should lightly apply the brakes occasionally in the wet to help to keep them a bit drier, so when you need to use them they won't need to scrub off a surface of water first and they don't work so you apply more brake but then they dry and grab suddenly. not sure if that was understandable... or correct, just what I was told.


This really only applies to dosk brakes. Water accumulates on the rotors. Some folk like to VERY GENTLY apply the brake every so often to wipe the water off. I've never really seen the point, because how long will it take to get wet again?

But, it does raise a VERY important point. In rain, the rotor gets a film of water on it. When you first apply the brake, for a very small time, it will not be very effective, because the water holds the pads off the rotor. It is only a fraction of a second, but it can seem a long time when that truck is looming up. A classic novice mistake is to panic, "oh shit my brakes aren't working" and squeeze harder. Much harder. then the water is dispelled the brake grips fully, and you can imagine what happens next. Get used to braking with a steady measured squeeze, even if for a moment it doesn't seem to do much.

[TOTO]

was just thinking , maybe a good idea to stop somewhere for a coffee while the road is completely wet instead of riding trough the first minutes of it...may as well.

[Movistar]

cool. practice is always good.
I rode home yesterday in rather dismal conditions. had pretty low visibility.

I was more concerned about stading water on the motorway, having never really encountered it before. I've ridden a few times in heavy rain but never really come across more than patches about half a metre in diameter that were easily avoidable. going along the wellington motorway there was almost two lanes covered in parts.
what's the safest thing to do if you start aquaplaning at highways speeds?

Probably the best thing to do is SLOW DOWN so you don't aquaplane!!!

But if it's too late for that, don't brake, don't accelerate, just stay as upright as possible and maintain a firm but not tight grip on the handle bars.

It's a scary situation to be in and to be honest once you've done these things a bit of luck will go along way...

Well done for at least getting out there and practising and experimenting:2thumbsup, you can learn so much by doing this but remember the best and safest way to brake is using both front and rear brakes, I would highly recommend you practice this next time.

[TOTO]

This really only applies to dosk brakes. Water accumulates on the rotors. Some folk like to VERY GENTLY apply the brake every so often to wipe the water off. I've never really seen the point, because how long will it take to get wet again?

But, it does raise a VERY important point. In rain, the rotor gets a film of water on it. When you first apply the brake, for a very small time, it will not be very effective, because the water holds the pads off the rotor. It is only a fraction of a second, but it can seem a long time when that truck is looming up. A classic novice mistake is to panic, "oh shit my brakes aren't working" and squeeze harder. Much harder. then the water is dispelled the brake grips fully, and you can imagine what happens next. Get used to braking with a steady measured squeeze, even if for a moment it doesn't seem to do much.

+1

I think thats a valluable advice, I had a situation like that and applied the Newbie Grip of death and almost fliped forwards, but that was on my second day, now I follow what youve just said.

[discotex]

what's the safest thing to do if you start aquaplaning at highways speeds?

If you see standing water then slow down. Aquaplaning is a function of speed and the ability of your tyres to clear water.

Other than that don't do anything. You're basically on ice but it's only for a fraction of a second if you're lucky.

[discotex]

Anyway afterwords I decided that it would be a good idea to go to an empty carpark and practice braking in the wet.

Good shit mate. I can see you're not going to be a fair weather rider (or pussy as I like to say haha).



Went to the empty carpark 2 hours ago and started practicing stopping - front brake only , back brake only, 2 brakes at the same time. It was not as slipery as when It just started to rain , actually I can Say that I had more grip when it was soking wet that when it just started raining.

Yep.. The most dangerous times on the road are 30mins from sunrise/to sunset and 30mins after rain. The sunrise/sunset is because of sunstrike.

As Ixion explained it takes a while for all the oil/tar/misc shite to be washed off the road. It's super slick after a week of dry summer weather.




1. Half wet surface is most likely to lock the back wheel than fully soakeing wet surface.

2. Pumping the Back brake seemed to help me not locking the back, not sure if its always like that but this is what I observed.

Total and utter waste of time. Here's why..

Your back brake is at best providing 20% of available stopping power. Without human ABS you might lose a little but losing 30% of 20% is a bad trade to having to concentrate on your rear brake and risk affecting your 80% front.

My riding style in the wet is to use the back brake under 15km/h as locking the front at low speed in the wet is very easy with twin discs. Above 15km/h I forget the rear completely. On a sportsbike it will lock long before it does anything about slowing you down. I focus on being very smooth on the front and be ready to release at the first sign of a slide.



3. If you lock the back brake at loower speed you slide less than if you lock the wheeel at higher speed :laugh:

4. Locking the back wheel standing straight is more managable than if you are a bit on an angle.

5. If you lock the back wheel and you are holding the front hard and keeping it straight, even if the back slides like a russian gymnast on ice skates it will eventually come back , even if still locked till the end (I'm sure ppl can disagree here :girlfight:)

Yep.. Best not to lock it at all but the rear is pretty manageable. If you get it too far out you do risk a highside if you let go of the pedel. This is another reason why I forget about the rear in the wet. Worrying about a highside takes my focus away from the front.



6. The tires still have about 80% traction compared to dry road so leaning over in a corner is a matter of confidence:niceone:, where as in the first 15 min of rain I'd say you have maximum 60% (estimation)

Well yes you're right. Look at MotoGP/WSBK for proof. Lap times don't drop that much in the wet. But... Bins happen more.

Again Ixion rightly pointed out that although much of the surface will give you up to 80% grip there is a load of stuff out there that will drop that to 10%. Leaves, tar snakes (try Mt Eden rd in the wet), diesel, painted lines, dog shit, metal road joiners/grates, etc, etc, etc. Hard to see them all in the wet if you're at 80% speed around a corner.



7. people walking their dogs are quite entertained watching a biker skidding around in the carpark :corn:

8. Doing the wet weather excersisses boosted my confidence, now I have some Idea about what to expect.[/B]


The best thing is now you will probably brake harder or swerve harder in an emergency situation as you've got past the fear of braking in the wet. Just don't let it make you ride without a safety margin.

Interesting that you found the stock tyres to be ok. Personally I suspect they have a bad rep that might be unfounded if people practised more in the wet. Wet vs dry performance vs longevity is always a trade off so testing your tyres and adjusting your riding style to your tyre style might be safer than just getting new tyres :) Cheaper too.

[Crasherfromwayback]

1. Yes. The first bit of wetness is very slippery because of shit (rubber, oil, dust) mixing with the water. This (a) more slippery than plain water and (b) the sipes in your tyre can't easily pump it away. After a bit the shit gets flushed away .

I'm with you there. Yes...happy New Year to you too.

2."pumping" has a mixed press, Basically it just helps avoid too heavy an application, and thus lockup. But on the other hand you lose a lot of braking time, because , in effect you are only breaking half the time. There is a more sophisticated approach called pulse or cadence breaking which in theory overcomes this. On a rear wheel I'm not convinced it's worth bothering. In theory ther eis also a risk of a high side by locking and then releasing the wheel.

'Pumping' is absolute shit. I'll be an absolute wanker here (what's new you and hundreds of other say) and state that I've NEVER been out braked racing in the wet. You can stop really well in the wet with ONLY the front brake if you apply it PROGRESSIVELY and gently. Every split second you spend 'off' the lever is a split second that could/will save you life.

almost all modern road bikes, IMHO have back brakes which are far too powerful. There is no justification for a disk brake on a road bike, except maybe a heavy crusier.

Sorry. Can't agree with you here Ixion. Most sport bikes have rear discs so ineffectual that they might as well not be there. That is because the weight transfer to the front during braking is so pronounced that they know it's trouble if they're strong.

..


cool. practice is always good.
I rode home yesterday in rather dismal conditions. had pretty low visibility.

I was more concerned about stading water on the motorway, having never really encountered it before. I've ridden a few times in heavy rain but never really come across more than patches about half a metre in diameter that were easily avoidable. going along the wellington motorway there was almost two lanes covered in parts.
what's the safest thing to do if you start aquaplaning at highways speeds?

Relax your grip on the bars and make sure the bike is dead upright and pointing straight ahead!


I was told that you should lightly apply the brakes occasionally in the wet to help to keep them a bit drier, so when you need to use them they won't need to scrub off a surface of water first and they don't work so you apply more brake but then they dry and grab suddenly. not sure if that was understandable... or correct, just what I was told.

No need with modern discs Love. When they (discs) were made of mostly stainless they were near dangerous in the wet. Now they're fine. You have moto-x bikes to thank for that.


This really only applies to dosk brakes. Water accumulates on the rotors. Some folk like to VERY GENTLY apply the brake every so often to wipe the water off. I've never really seen the point, because how long will it take to get wet again?

How much water stays on a disc rotor at even 30km's per hour Ixion?

. Much harder. then the water is dispelled the brake grips fully, and you can imagine what happens next. Get used to braking with a steady measured squeeze, even if for a moment it doesn't seem to do much.

I'm with you here though...the gentle squeeze rules.


If you see standing water then slow down. Aquaplaning is a function of speed and the ability of your tyres to clear water.

Other than that don't do anything. You're basically on ice but it's only for a fraction of a second if you're lucky.

Keep cool above all else.:niceone:

[DingoZ]

Cheers for the post...

Most valuable to read and learn from others experimenting. Have done the same sort of thing, local carpark, pouring with rain. Even had 4 or 5 people out walking their dogs, with umbrella's and raincoats on standing off to the side, having a good ole time watching me zip up and down the car park....

Best thing that I was told and practice every time....Both brakes progressively every time.....:)

Then again get the chance to ride in the wet most times anyway, living in Welly......:)

[C_A]

If you see standing water then slow down. Aquaplaning is a function of speed and the ability of your tyres to clear water.

Other than that don't do anything. You're basically on ice but it's only for a fraction of a second if you're lucky.


yuh. I do this. Was jsut as a 'worst case' scenario. Guess it's jsut like riding a dirtbike on mud or somethign.

[TOTO]

...

Again Ixon rightly pointed out that although much of the surface will give you up to 80% grip there is a load of stuff out there that will drop that to 10%. Leaves, tar snakes (try Mt Eden rd in the wet), diesel, painted lines, dog shit, metal road joiners/grates, etc, etc, etc...

Thanks Disco for the coment.

About the metal joiners , there is metal joiner on the harbour bridge on the south side and they are aboy half a metre long. One day on the rain I had to switch from higher gear to lower hear and I happened switch exactly when I was on top of that metal joiner. The lower gear bit in and because of the slightly higher revs the back tyre slid maybe 20cm sideways. The scariest 20cm in my life:crybaby:. I never change geard on that spot anyomore during the rain. sort of like a heads up... for that spot.:psst:

[Ixion]

Sorry. Can't agree with you here Ixion. Most sport bikes have rear discs so ineffectual that they might as well not be there. That is because the weight transfer to the front during braking is so pronounced that they know it's trouble if they're strong.


That is why I say they are too powerful. What is the point of having that heavy , and expensive disk brake, and all the hydraulic plumbing, when the maximum amount of grip you are going to be able to put through the tyre could be delivered by a bicycle brake ? The GSXR1000 has (I think) a 220mm rear disk. That's far bigger than is needed for traffic light stopping. But far more than the rear tyre will handle under serious stopping.

[discotex]

yuh. I do this. Was jsut as a 'worst case' scenario. Guess it's jsut like riding a dirtbike on mud or somethign.

You should be sweet as then. Chances are if you didn't see it and slow down it can't be bad enough to cause a problem.

Or, if it's deep enough you could just speed up :)

This guy's going too slow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLaIv5LTrlc

This guy has it nailed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5fZdesf0QM

[Crasherfromwayback]

That is why I say they are too powerful. What is the point of having that heavy , and expensive disk brake, and all the hydraulic plumbing, when the maximum amount of grip you are going to be able to put through the tyre could be delivered by a bicycle brake ? The GSXR1000 has (I think) a 220mm rear disk. That's far bigger than is needed for traffic light stopping. But far more than the rear tyre will handle under serious stopping.

Lol...we've had 'chats' regarding disc brakes in the past Ixion.

Disc brakes offer better 'feel' than bicycle brakes at no more of an 'expense' than a drum. They also don't 'lock' up like a drum brake when the shoes are worn due to them going over center.

[discotex]

Thanks Disco for the coment.

About the metal joiners , there is metal joiner on the harbour bridge on the south side and they are aboy half a metre long. One day on the rain I had to switch from higher gear to lower hear and I happened switch exactly when I was on top of that metal joiner. The lower gear bit in and because of the slightly higher revs the back tyre slid maybe 20cm sideways. The scariest 20cm in my life:crybaby:. I never change geard on that spot anyomore during the rain. sort of like a heads up... for that spot.:psst:

Yep that's exactly the sort of thing to watch out for. Getting onto the North Western from Newton Rd is super dodgy as you have to turn across it.

Your mention of changing gears reminded me of something else to be wary of in the wet... Don't change gears while leant over in the wet. Unless you change ultra smooth you're risking a lowside.

[sugilite]

On a hot mix surface - 1st few spots, exercise caution, though still surprisingly grippy, as road starts to get wetter and water spots start to join up to form a fully wet road 'DANGER' use extreme caution, VERY slippery. Road fully wet, back to exercizing caution with more grip than you may think being available, just hold plenty in reserve and watch the following distances. :cool:

[Ixion]

Well, I'm not (necessarily) arguing for a drum brake . Actually, an argument could be made for no rear brake at all. Many sprotsbike riders say they never use it anyway. So why cart around 20 or 30 pounds of dead weight?

But taking the GSXR1000 as an example. That 220mm disk is going to provide far more braking force than the tyre will transmit, in any serious braking (because, as you say, of the weight transfer forward). In fact, if the rear wheel is in the air, the rear tyre will transmit NO braking force.

So, why such a large (and heavy) brake ? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so there is no point in having a brake that can provide more retardation than the tyre can transmit. And on a sportsbike, that's not very much.A 125mm disk would still probably be too much for the tyre .

[Crasherfromwayback]

Well, I'm not (necessarily) arguing for a drum brake . Actually, an argument could be made for no rear brake at all. Many sprotsbike riders say they never use it anyway. So why cart around 20 or 30 pounds of dead weight?

But taking the GSXR1000 as an example. That 220mm disk is going to provide far more braking force than the tyre will transmit, in any serious braking (because, as you say, of the weight transfer forward). In fact, if the rear wheel is in the air, the rear tyre will transmit NO braking force.

So, why such a large (and heavy) brake ? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so there is no point in having a brake that can provide more retardation than the tyre can transmit. And on a sportsbike, that's not very much.A 125mm disk would still probably be too much for the tyre .

Good argument mate...but the problem with it being that in the dry you may well want to stomp on it (the rear brake) to get the bike sideways etc.

Like everything motorcycle...it's always a comprimise.

[xwhatsit]

How about a cable/rod operated single pot rear disc? Don't have awful hydraulic systems weighing a tonne and requiring lots of maintenance, and getting in the way of proper feel and linear application.

I still have that momentary Jesus H. Christ moment when first applying front brakes in the wet, despite a change to some modern pads. Hadn't heard the comment regarding old stainless steel discs; I'd say that's the issue with mine. Not really an issue, I've learned to brush the water beforehand, as written above.

Rear drum brake still works perfectly, day, night, wet, dry, hot, cold. Relining the shoes was cheaper than new pads for the front disc. Don't remember having to rebuild it, or bleed the hydraulic fluid. Funny that.

[Big Dog]

How about a cable/rod operated single pot rear disc? Don't have awful hydraulic systems weighing a tonne and requiring lots of maintenance, and getting in the way of proper feel and linear application.


Prolly because to supply sufficient pressure we need hydraulic assistance. Rods don't exert pressure round corners very efficiently or consistently.

No need to panic though, you too can experience the joy of spending ours practicing your braking to the point you still have plenty of feel and you have sufficient confidence that you can deal with it if you get it wrong.

Shit I managed a 20m unintentional rear wheel lockup the other day. Only shifted down one gear instead of two (lazy I know) going around a corner into a different street. As I got off the clutch I was too slow off the brake and locked the rear just as I tipped in.
I identified my best chance of survival focused on that, stood the bike up, got off the brake (hard to take your foot off it when you are using your knee to hold on to the tank for dear life). Trickled to a halt in my exit zone made sure there were no cars coming, dropped a u turn, waved to spectators and carried on.

Was I scared? Not really. Pretty fucking wrapped that all that practice wet and dry paid for itself.

[Ixion]

How about a cable/rod operated single pot rear disc? Don't have awful hydraulic systems weighing a tonne and requiring lots of maintenance, and getting in the way of proper feel and linear application.

I still have that momentary Jesus H. Christ moment when first applying front brakes in the wet, despite a change to some modern pads. Hadn't heard the comment regarding old stainless steel discs; I'd say that's the issue with mine. Not really an issue, I've learned to brush the water beforehand, as written above.

Rear drum brake still works perfectly, day, night, wet, dry, hot, cold. Relining the shoes was cheaper than new pads for the front disc. Don't remember having to rebuild it, or bleed the hydraulic fluid. Funny that.

Mechanical disks have been tried. Early Lambrettas had them as did something called the Honda Nighthawk 250. and others.

The problem is that a disk brake needs a LOT more application pressure than a drum brake. This is because the drum brake utilises a self servo trick - the rotation of the drum drags the shoes harder and harder against it. So all you need to do (in theory) is provide enough force to get the process started.

A disk brake has no self servo action , so the pressure applied by the linkages has to be much greater.

Which leads to stretched cables, flexing rods and such like.

[Big Dog]

Mechanical disks have been tried. Early Lambrettas had them as did something called the Honda Nighthawk 250. and others.

The problem is that a disk brake needs a LOT more application pressure than a drum brake. This is because the drum brake utilises a self servo trick - the rotation of the drum drags the shoes harder and harder against it. So all you need to do (in theory) is provide enough force to get the process started.

A disk brake has no self servo action , so the pressure applied by the linkages has to be much greater.

Which leads to stretched cables, flexing rods and such like.
You make it sound so much prettier.

[NighthawkNZ]

I know there are threads about that and I've read them, just sharing my experience here...

The main thing I find in wet weather riding is to be slow and methodical and smooth movements...


Applying brakes evenly not just grabbing a fist full of front brakes.
No sudden movements like flicking your bike into corners (if you stuff it up in the dry then in the wet...)
Trust your tyres... (unless you know they are shit in the wet... then get new tyres).
Ride to the conditions and your ability. Remember in the wet your stopping distance is more than normal, no matter how good a rider you are.

[delusionz]

I'd just like to add that in emergency braking hold off on the downshift unless you preempt the need to slow down and revmatch the next gear down beforehand. Changing down while using the rear brake only adds to the lockup effect.

Also if you look ahead and be prepared to slow down for anything that might cross your path you'll generally avoid emergency braking situations which is the best method of braking in general, wet or dry.

Wet is only a test to see if you can perform well when the conditions are less forgiving.

[007XX]

I'd just like to add that in emergency braking hold off on the downshift unless you preempt the need to slow down and revmatch the next gear down beforehand. Changing down while using the rear brake only adds to the lockup effect.

Also if you look ahead and be prepared to slow down for anything that might cross your path you'll generally avoid emergency braking situations which is the best method of braking in general, wet or dry.

Wet is only a test to see if you can perform well when the conditions are less forgiving.

Most definitely agree with this, especially with the holding off on the downshift. I found this out rather clearly on my VTR as being a Vtwin, she does let me know quick smart when I'm not using the brakes properly.

I really don't mind riding in the wet (and no, I'm not being a show off),as I just forced myself earlier on in my riding to go out there during conditions I wasn't feeling that confident with. Like riding at night is another one.

Sure, I'm no faster than during daytime, or when it's dry, but I like being able to ride the same rather than go slower...

It is all about being as smooth as a baby's bottom...nothing rough in the wet :whistle:

[The Pastor]

Having no confidence probably makes you a smart rider :-)



Wrong It makes you a dead rider.

[madandy]

way to bring it back from summer RM.

[johnnyflash]

Wrong It makes you a dead rider.

Not true, just means he doesnt exceed his limits, that makes him smarter than the rider who thinks he knows it all :-)

[Skyryder]

Have not read all posts so may have been said.

The road is more slipperey at the start of rain due to dust on the road surface.
Dust and water will cause planing. It is not untll the rain has 'washed' off the dust that you can brake in relative safety.

Braking prodcedure should not change too much in either wet or dry conditions and that is to brake when bike is upright and not angled as in the bend. However having said that wet weather braking requires more control with both front and back brakes in unison. Too much of one or the other can cause the bike to lock and slew. Not a nice feeling even if you do manage to stay up. But if both are applied in unison each will cancell the other out and prevent locking up.

In the wet I rarely use my brakes other than for minor adjustments. I much prefer engine braking and rely on the engine revs for 'traction.'

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Most definitely agree with this, especially with the holding off on the downshift. I found this out rather clearly on my VTR as being a Vtwin, she does let me know quick smart when I'm not using the brakes properly.

Yep if you brake and then down shift you can come to grief real fast. Guzzies have have a real sidekick in the rear if you down shift into 5000 revs and up. But you can 'feather' the brakes if need be at the upper revs safely and downshift to maintain revs and tyre traction if need be.
Bottomline on this, just make sure you do not have to hit the brakes hard in the wet.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Not true, just means he doesnt exceed his limits, that makes him smarter than the rider who thinks he knows it all :-)

Sorry ol' son I'm Rengade on this. It's not about exceeding limits. Most riders do not exceed their limits. It's why most riders survive. Lack of confidence is caused by 'fear.' That's the kicker.


Skyryder

[The Pastor]

Yep if you brake and then down shift you can come to grief real fast. Guzzies have have a real sidekick in the rear if you down shift into 5000 revs and up. But you can 'feather' the brakes if need be at the upper revs safely and downshift to maintain revs and tyre traction if need be.
Bottomline on this, just make sure you do not have to hit the brakes hard in the wet.


Skyryder
Thats what blippings for?

[scumdog]

So, why such a large (and heavy) brake ? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so there is no point in having a brake that can provide more retardation than the tyre can transmit. .

Because in the twisty bits your brakes get a good work-out and a smaller disc may start to fade??

[dpex]

I set out this morning from Auck. Went to Rotorua, then Tuaranga, then back to Auck, with a few ten minutes stops on the way. Just as Penrose hove into my view some tit decided to break down in the middle of the motorway. Notwithstanding, I'd just spent nearly seven hours at the helm, mostly at 100ks+

By penrose I was getting tired and sore. I knew my concentration was way low, so I worked hard at keeping it up. Suddenly, the dude in front locked up his brakes. My frozen fingers just got to the front brake. Pump-lock/skid-release. Pump-lock/skid-release. Now ping left, through the gap.

All this happened in under three seconds. Yet I came to a halt alongside the dude who had locked up his brakes ahead of me, and whose car was now giving the car in front a bit of nose-to-tail massage.

We humans are slow creatures. Most of what we do incredibly quickly is stuff we either practice (actually) or practice actually and do a lot of imagining.

I can't say how many hours I've layed in bed, imagining that manuvre. And I have practiced it many times. Tonight, just when I was cold, sore, stiff, tired, and way down on concentration, the actual and head-practice saved my arse.

I recommend all bikers practice various manouvres in their minds as often as possible. This lays down a auto-response programme which triggers when your brain ain't working anywhere near as fast as your reflexes.

[TOTO]

practice , practice , practice will save your life some day.

[DarkLord]

Hey TOTO, was good to ride with you, YR64L, Gubb and Gordy the other night - sorry we lost you!! Hopefully we can ride again sometime soon.

Just wanted to share a little experience I had recently -

I was on my way to work and taking the on ramp from the Northcote bridge on to the motorway, heading north. The light was red so I stopped and the road was a bit wet and greasy. When the light went green I accelerated much too hard while turning a little bit so my right wheel spun up and flew out to the right in quite a skid, so I steered into the skid (counter-steering technique you use in a car) and the bike skidded the other way, but with less intensity, so I steered into the skid again and jut kept doing that until I was able to totally straighten up and keep going.

If you do find your rear wheel sliding that is a very effective way to get out of it. It was a bit scary but it worked!

[TOTO]

interesting.

I need to practice that.

Thanks for the tip :niceone: