Feminism - what is it?

[Her_C4]

Reading through a number of posts in the ‘Biker Angels’ Forum of late has raised a number of (surprisingly) strong reactions in me with regards to differing peoples opinions and reactions to the (IMHO) misuse / misinterpretation of the term ‘feminism’ and that in turn has left me pondering if we REALLY understand what is, or (and more importantly), what it means if anything, to us as women.

So - What is ‘feminism’ to you? :cool:

A doctrine that advocates equal rights for all women (regardless of age, ethnicity etc)?

An outdated concept / theory that was started in the 19th century and has no validity in this day and age?

A social movement that attempts to address, analyse and interpret issues of particular importance for women (e.g. domestic violence, pay equity, globalisation)?

A movement started by power crazy ‘hairy lesbians’ for the purpose of mocking and putting down all men on this earth?

Something else entirely?

Just to set you thinking a wee bit (and hopefully to slow down the initial reactions!) I have done a wee bit of looking around on the interwebby thingy and found the following quotes that may be of interest (note they are selective quotes for the purpose of generating debate - to get the full context just follow the links).

"Modern feminist theory has been criticized as being predominantly, but not exclusively, associated with Western middle-class academia. Feminist activism, however, is a grass-roots movement that seeks to cross boundaries based on social class, race, culture, and religion. It is culturally specific and addresses issues relevant to the women of that society: for example female circumcision in Sudan, or the glass ceiling in developed economies. Some issues, such as rape, incest, and mothering, are universal. "http://www.womensstudies.eku.edu/what/

"……as long as Women's History and African American History are independent curricula, history itself will still be a white man's story. In that same way, the women's rights movement will have been successful when we no longer have to advocate separately for half the population's human rights. On the other hand, ideally women's egos would be more invested in their work. You can't continue change if you don't know the process necessary to make it. If feminists first exposed domestic violence as a reality in many women's lives, funded the first women's shelters, and drafted and fought for legislation that is now working to end violence against women, then an "advocate to end violence against women" (Sam Allison's term for herself) is just another word for "feminist." Issues divorced from their feminist roots eventually become depoliticized, and the resulting social programs are reduced to treating the symptoms rather than curing-or preventing-the disease. In order to have a robust movement, domestic violence and economic development need to be re-identified as feminist issues and victories. " http://www.feminist.com/resources/artspeech/genwom/whatisfem.htm

"In Manhood Redux, C.H. Freedman writes of the "ultimate discrimination" in his chapter entitled "Arlington Cemetery: The Ultimate Male- Chauvinist Preserve." There, he relates men's horror stories of war, comparing them to women's "horror stories" of sexism. Essentially a comparison of male grief to female anger, he demonstrates well how much more value our society assigns to female anger.

For the indignity of being called "little girl," he notes, many courts "are wont to assume" it's "worth perhaps $50,000 in compensation." (Manhood Redux, C.H. Freedman, p 135) But how much, he asks, was it worth for frightened young draftees in Vietnam to be told they were going to be used as bait?

How much is it worth to be told your life is worth less than a can of worms or a dozen frozen bait herring? How much, to hear members of the opposite sex tell you your healthy sexual desires are bad because you're a heterosexual male? How much, to suffer hundreds of rejections by members of the opposite sex?

During the past 25 years, these have contributed to the grief men commonly feel: rejection, denigration, callous dismissal. How much are they worth?

Few women want to hear about this because then they'd have to confront that, contrary to the popular pop-feminist message that men deserve to be treated like inhuman, rapacious beasts, we bleed, we hurt, often women make us cry, and we die. " http://www.jtest28.com/Grief.html

".....Of course the irony is that in all their rushing toward "female empowerment" (hmm...) they basically *dumped* what made them feminine, and glorified masculinity even more by imitating it. It seems to me like now women have claimed that for themselves, and now men are in some weird in-between - not allowed to act like "traditional men," and also (STILL) not really allowed to have feminine characteristics. It's like everybody's trying to be everything, sort of. Meanwhile, everyone is promiscuous, half the kids out there are accidents, and there are no families anymore because everybody's too busy having fun to raise kids properly.

I really don't know what the gender roles are anymore (Does anyone?) but I know that women have really put themselves into a bind. Now they have to be providers *and* beautiful sex objects, but they may still be considered "sluts," and modesty and virginity are no longer options, because that makes them "prudes." I don't know what the male situation is, but I'd suspect it is similarly confused." http://www.jtest28.com/Interesting_post.html

And finally

"Feminism - I myself have never known what feminism is. I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat." -Rebecca West, 1913

[ManDownUnder]

Feminism should be a doctrine recognising and enabling the equal value and position of women as individuals and in society at large. It should recognise and take into account the inherant differences between the genders with a view to enabling women to be all they can be, and all they want to be, should they chose to do so.

In that regard it is about equality.

It should not be a device used to enable women at the expense of men. Rather than pushing men down to gain relative advantage, it should recognise the value of men, and seek to gain those same advantages.

Where a patriarchy has rules or procedures in place that limit or inhibit women's ability to gain equal footing then those rules/practices should be challenged.

Natural gender differences need to be accounted for. If a woman wants the right to use a mens stand up urinal then I think we need to take a look not at the request - but why it's being made. If it's in the interests of woman gaining equal footing and opportunity then fine. If it's simply showboating and making a point because it's there to be made then it's stupid.

It's about enablement, empowering and uplifting women as a gender. Not about repressing, limiting or costing men as a gender. Each side should be look at the other with a view to helping.

Too often this whole topic becomes a "How can I best get them back for the years of mistreatment" issue which is total BS. Accept things for how they are as of right now, address any shortcomings - and move forward.

[Mr Merde]

.
.


So - What is ‘feminism’ to you? :cool:

A doctrine that advocates equal rights for all women (regardless of age, ethnicity etc)?

....
.....
.... power crazy ‘hairy lesbians’ for the purpose of mocking and putting down all men on this earth?

Something else entirely?

....

So how do I answer this as an elderly male with his formative years back in the late 50's.

Very carefully is probably the best way.

Personally I see feminism as the it originated as the statement I changed into red text. Something i have wholeheartily agreed with most of my adult life.

The blue text is the impression of where , in my perception , feminism has seemed to be going in the last decade

The green text is where I would like it to go in the future.

Not the most enlightening answer but one hopefully that wont get my head chewed off by those members of the blue yext brigade.

[007XX]

I really don't know what the gender roles are anymore (Does anyone?) but I know that women have really put themselves into a bind. Now they have to be providers *and* beautiful sex objects, but they may still be considered "sluts," and modesty and virginity are no longer options, because that makes them "prudes." I don't know what the male situation is, but I'd suspect it is similarly confused."[/I] http://www.jtest28.com/Interesting_post.html


And finally

"Feminism - I myself have never known what feminism is. I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat." -Rebecca West, 1913

Firstly, very nice thread Her_B4...I hope I get to be able to bling you for it soon :D

I like these two portions of text best, as they represent my view point the best on this topic.

To me, the feminist movement is about helping women emancipate themselves from truly appalling, life threatening or truly unfair life situations.

It is NOT about whether men should be emasculated and rendered shadows of themselves to satisfy the unrealistic demands of females driven to extremes by past bad experiences with poor partners choices and experiences.

The balance is a difficult one to obtain, but it is not impossible. However, it requires a certain amount of intelligence which quite often is not present amongst a lot of individuals, irrespective of gender, nationality or even economic status.

You do not need to be a certain colour, have money or believe in a certain religion to respect and love each other, and I believe that extremists have definitely injured our society for both genders.

Bring back John Wayne and Clark Gable, I say!!!

[jrandom]

Women with opinions are cute.

:)

[ManDownUnder]

Women with opinions are cute.

:)

If you mean women with brains and well formed opinions then we are are of similar mind grasshopper...

[Grub]

Feminism should be a doctrine recognising and .... <snip>

Nominated for KB's Post of the Year!

[jrandom]

If you mean women with brains and well formed opinions...

Well, sure. Just so long as they're short enough to pat on the head when necessary. Positive reinforcement is an important part of training.

:yes:

[Mr Merde]

..... Positive reinforcement is an important part of training.

:yes:

They can be trained? :2thumbsup

[007XX]

Well, sure. Just so long as they're short enough to pat on the head when necessary. Positive reinforcement is an important part of training.

:yes:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Funny that...it's what I remind myself to do every time I see you...:niceone:

[Joni]

Women with opinions are cute.

:)shit then I must be damn cute, because I am accused of being an opinionated bitch often! :confused:

I have a few thoughts on this... might take the time to write them down later.

However I find it sad when a woman is proud and strong in her ways and feels there should be no "separation" in people no matter what their gender the next thing she is accused of being a feminist.

Im not a feminist.

I belive in equality no matter what gender/religion/physicality/what the fuck ever other compartment you want to put someone in...

[Trudes]

Feminism should be a doctrine recognising and enabling the equal value and position of women as individuals and in society at large. It should recognise and take into account the inherant differences between the genders with a view to enabling women to be all they can be, and all they want to be, should they chose to do so.

In that regard it is about equality.

It should not be a device used to enable women at the expense of men. Rather than pushing men down to gain relative advantage, it should recognise the value of men, and seek to gain those same advantages.

Where a patriarchy has rules or procedures in place that limit or inhibit women's ability to gain equal footing then those rules/practices should be challenged.

Natural gender differences need to be accounted for. If a woman wants the right to use a mens stand up urinal then I think we need to take a look not at the request - but why it's being made. If it's in the interests of woman gaining equal footing and opportunity then fine. If it's simply showboating and making a point because it's there to be made then it's stupid.

It's about enablement, empowering and uplifting women as a gender. Not about repressing, limiting or costing men as a gender. Each side should be look at the other with a view to helping.

Too often this whole topic becomes a "How can I best get them back for the years of mistreatment" issue which is total BS. Accept things for how they are as of right now, address any shortcomings - and move forward.

Well I was going to woffle on, but I really don't need to, you sir said everything that I was going to type, thanks for saving me the effort, I have dishes to wash (kidding), I love you and want to have your babies (again kidding).
To me, simply put, feminisim is about equality in all aspects of life, equal rights, and equal choices, not just for women but for men also, it's no longer a 'the women against the men' thing, but about equality and respect for all.

[jrandom]

Funny that...it's what I remind myself to do every time I see you...

Keen on a bit of layup practice, eh?

<img src="http://i15.tinypic.com/6ynoyer.jpg"/>

[BIHB@0610]

Just to throw another iron in the fire - I think traditional, mainstream feminism is too narrowly focused and neither acknowledges nor addresses the connections between subjugation of women, minorities, and the environment. Ecofeminism, however, does - it is a fascinating branch of feminist theory.

The short and curly of it is that way back in the dark ages, during the origins of Judeo-Christian theology, "man" was seen as separate to (and dominant over) nature and the feminine - the idea being that God gave "man" dominion over the earth (interesting, aye, that the human race has been known as "man").

As western civilisation (UK, USA) is essentially borne of historically Christian nations, and men have traditionally been the heads of the family and the owners of land (and therefore managers of it) our environmental performance has been decidedly lacklustre. Resources have been seen as just there for the taking - the "raping of the earth" the "taming of nature" etc - and nature has been viewed as somehow outside and disconnected from culture, enabling humans to just dispose of their waste willy-nilly (out of sight, out of mind). Similarly, women have been seen as aligned more with nature (mother nature, mother earth, earth mother, wild women etc) and less with culture and men.

Our history has been written by men, our religion dominated by men, and our civilisation run by men. I prefer to think of it less as a dark evil conspiracy than as a product of a lack of questioning in the past. Now we are all starting to question things, and that can only be a good thing. As the mother of three boys I do worry that the pendulum sometimes swings too far, especially in education, but in general I'm happy that women and girls are now given the opportunities they are. We should never think things are as simple as they seem though - the origins of our thought processes are fascinating!

It's not just about women wanting to work and be paid fairly - it's about righting the wrongs of millenia, and changing the way we view the world - and that takes time. Like making cheese and seeing the results of Pantene .......

[jrandom]

*furious typing noises*

Top tip: try a paragraph break here and there.

:niceone:

[MadDuck]

Well, sure. Just so long as they're short enough to pat on the head when necessary.....

Hoi I object....i prefer it when tall blokes use my head as an arm rest whilst holding their beer :doh:

[007XX]

Keen on a bit of layup practice, eh?


Oh can we? can we? *tail wagging*

C'mon, throw the ball man...

[BIHB@0610]

Thanks! Newbie to this - still learning:2thumbsup

[ManDownUnder]

.......

My view is that men ruled women for so long for the same reasons the US dominates world politics. Sadly... might is right. Not right in the "correct" or "unquestionably justified" sense. More accurately, might brings rights. If I disagree with jrandom, but he's a 5th Dan (boom tish) black belt in somethingorother and folds me into the middle of next week every time we disagree on something ... I'm going to learn to stop disagreeing PDQ.

Likewise as a generalisation, men historically have had a physical advantage over women meaning that ultimately we (men) could get want we want. We got power, the chance to enshrine that into statue when civilisation became advanced enough and the rest is history. Which is where I would really like to leave it - in the past.

As a man living in the here and now, I am not accountable for the misguided deeds of my forefathers. If my grea great great male step/grand/uncle father raped and pillaged a village back in the day because it was the thing to do back then... to be blunt - it's not my fault. Like I said. Let's look at how things are right here and now, and put in place measures the correct any shortcomings - on both sides. I've long maintained that women are the most fascinating creatures I know.

I've been lucky enough to surround myself with good people and be able to really talk to them in depth about anything at all. There are one or two on KB that I absolutely love to talk with because of their view on the world. They have brains, they are keen of thought, and they are almost invariably women.

That's not to say I don't appreciate the views of men. I do - I just happen to have most of them already. I have the most to gain - the most to learn - from women. Why the hell would I want to deny myself of that... and like any zealot, I'm keen to convert others to my point of view.

I'd also suggest women of similar mind find those few men capable of talking about anything and everything and explore their minds. Find what's in there and why. Tis a fun place to be.

... pet topic - you were warned.

[ManDownUnder]

Hoi I object....i prefer it when tall blokes use my head as an arm rest whilst holding their beer :doh:

Stop sticking the beers down your cleavage then...

[Her_C4]

Feminism should be a doctrine recognising and enabling the equal value and position of women as individuals and in society at large. .... and whole lot of REALLY good points

Too often this whole topic becomes a "How can I best get them back for the years of mistreatment" issue which is total BS. Accept things for how they are as of right now, address any shortcomings - and move forward.

Yes - BS indeed, although I believe that you would be hard pressed to find any 'thinking' woman in this day and age that seriously believes we (as a gender), need to 'get back' at anyone... for anything.... in this regard. Bugger! As I typed that one seriously came to mind. As you were.


So how do I answer this as an elderly male with his formative years back in the late 50's.

Very carefully is probably the best way.

Personally I see feminism as the it originated as the statement I changed into red text. Something i have wholeheartily agreed with most of my adult life.

The blue text is the impression of where , in my perception , feminism has seemed to be going in the last decade

The green text is where I would like it to go in the future.

Not the most enlightening answer but one hopefully that wont get my head chewed off by those members of the blue yext brigade.

I hope not too :sunny:



The balance is a difficult one to obtain, but it is not impossible. However, it requires a certain amount of intelligence which quite often is not present amongst a lot of individuals, irrespective of gender, nationality or even economic status.

But not impossible indeed ..... :yes:


Bring back John Wayne and Clark Gable, I say!!! YES:sunny:


Women with opinions are cute.

:)
:REALLY? I have a few and I am (as always) happy to share .... he he he


If you mean women with brains and well formed opinions then we are are of similar mind grasshopper... Nice response....


Well, sure. Just so long as they're short enough to pat on the head when necessary. Positive reinforcement is an important part of training.
:yes:
:shutup::shutup:


They can be trained? :2thumbsup
Sigh......

no not really - dunno' where he got that idea from... been around trying to teach too many old dogs I guess?


shit then I must be damn cute, because I am accused of being an opinionated bitch often! :confused:

You are darlin' you are :rockon:


I belive in equality no matter what gender/religion/physicality/what the fuck ever other compartment you want to put someone in... so why do (happily over generalising here) people assume that because (for example) we want equal pay - for an equal days work that we are feminists?


Well I was going to woffle on, but I really don't need to, you sir said everything that I was going to type, thanks for saving me the effort, I have dishes to wash (kidding), I love you and want to have your babies (again kidding).
. (Phew! Thank goodness for notes in parenthesis)

[Riff Raff]

I don't associate myself with the word 'feminist'. I'm just me, enjoying being a woman and all that entails. So sometimes I've been in the kitchen cooking my man some eggs, and others I've been out being a hooligan on a motorycle, or scuba diving, or skydiving or doing any of the other 'dangerous boy sports' (as my mum calls them) that take my fancy. I'm still feminine, but I'm having lots of fun.

[Rosie]

To me, simply put, feminisim is about equality in all aspects of life, equal rights, and equal choices, not just for women but for men also, it's no longer a 'the women against the men' thing, but about equality and respect for all.

:yes: personally I prefer the term gender equality to feminism.

I think to a degree, feminism has been a victim of its own success. In NZ almost all the glaring inequalities towards women have been addressed. The sorts of gender issues we have tend to be more subtle, complex, and are as likely to be directed towards men. With a lack of big issues that all women can relate to, feminism is going to home in on the smaller, more difficult issues, this will tend to magnify the extreme political/sociological/whatever views that some people have about feminism and women's rights, making women with more moderate views feeling that they can't really relate to feminism.

[ManDownUnder]

Yes - BS indeed, although I believe that you would be hard pressed to find any 'thinking' woman in this day and age that seriously believes we (as a gender), need to 'get back' at anyone... for anything.... in this regard. Bugger! As I typed that one seriously came to mind. As you were.

LOL... yes they are out there. The ocassional social handgrenade just waiting to go off in the face of unsuspecting penis bearers LOL.

My all time favourite - at Massey University (PN) book shop. I get to a glass door that opened towards me just as someone else did so I opened it and waited for them to come through... common courtesy ... no?

Apparently not. It was yet another affront to her already subjugated existnce in patriarcal... blah blah blah. She went right off at me... so I did the decent thing - cut her off walked through and made sure the door was closed behind me so she'd have to do the whole damned thing herself.

To this day I'm glad she did it. It gave me plenty to think about, and a story I'll carry for the rest of my life. Part of me pities her though. I didn't take the time (or get the chance) to understand her side of the story.

To get the example and reframe it to what I would like to see happen... she would have stepped through - then held the door for me. THAT'S equality

[Blue Velvet]

"Feminism - I myself have never known what feminism is. I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat." -Rebecca West, 1913

That pretty much sums it up for me.

I am me. I’ll change my own engine oil. Cook your own dinner.

I find it extremely disappointing when people do or will not think or act for themselves. I don’t subscribe to traditional gender roles.

I like to know how to do things for myself. On the other hand, I won't hesitate to ask for help. But not because I want someone else to do the work for me, rather, I want to learn how to do things myself. But I am a female.

Has tools. Will travel. $0.02

[BIHB@0610]

:With a lack of big issues that all women can relate to, feminism is going to home in on the smaller, more difficult issues, this will tend to magnify the extreme political/sociological/whatever views that some people have about feminism and women's rights, making women with more moderate views feeling that they can't really relate to feminism.

I agree - women with moderate views may feel that they can't relate to feminism - if they perceive it to be strong minded and antagonistic. But to me, feminism/ecofeminism is about understanding why we have arrived at the place we have, what forces have shaped our constitutions, our laws, our societal constructs.

Before we can move forward we have to understand where we've come from - and understand without blame.

I absolutely agree that because someone's great great grandfather burned a village it's nothing to do with the descendents living now - but it's the thinking behind those actions, years ago, that fed into the society we have now.

As individuals it might be easier (and the only thing possible) to keep it simple and view all people equally, but as a society we need to look at our policies and our laws to ensure that the future reflects our new understanding of the past. That's probably down to policy analysts in central government rather than individuals!

[Coyote]

"In Manhood Redux, C.H. Freedman writes of the "ultimate discrimination" in his chapter entitled "Arlington Cemetery: The Ultimate Male- Chauvinist Preserve." There, he relates men's horror stories of war, comparing them to women's "horror stories" of sexism. Essentially a comparison of male grief to female anger, he demonstrates well how much more value our society assigns to female anger.

For the indignity of being called "little girl," he notes, many courts "are wont to assume" it's "worth perhaps $50,000 in compensation." (Manhood Redux, C.H. Freedman, p 135) But how much, he asks, was it worth for frightened young draftees in Vietnam to be told they were going to be used as bait?

How much is it worth to be told your life is worth less than a can of worms or a dozen frozen bait herring? How much, to hear members of the opposite sex tell you your healthy sexual desires are bad because you're a heterosexual male? How much, to suffer hundreds of rejections by members of the opposite sex?

During the past 25 years, these have contributed to the grief men commonly feel: rejection, denigration, callous dismissal. How much are they worth?

Few women want to hear about this because then they'd have to confront that, contrary to the popular pop-feminist message that men deserve to be treated like inhuman, rapacious beasts, we bleed, we hurt, often women make us cry, and we die. "
Wise words.

I haven't been rejected, mainly because I've such low self esteem that I've only ever once asked 1 girl out (100% success rate :p), but I've been led on many times into believing a girl has liked me but really I'm either 1: only on a list of guys that they like but they'll only get to me after being rejected by the other's higher on the list or 2: they love comanding attention.

I haven't seen women being repressed ever, thought I've grown up in the aftermath of the feminazi revolution. I've only seen girls that are overly confident and are happy to play with guys feelings, sleep with whichever of the lot, then another, and another, then go back to the first one, and aspire to become playboy pin-ups. There's been a few exceptions, one being my girlfriend, but she just admitted to me that she went around and basically was the type of girl I despised before she met me.

If only I had read this when I was 13, I wouldn't be nearly so spiteful if I had've known: http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Friend_Zone

[jrandom]

I haven't been rejected, mainly because I've such low self esteem that I've only ever once asked 1 girl out...

If only I had read this when I was 13, I wouldn't be nearly so spiteful...

<img src="http://www.interpunk.com/itemimages/75120.jpg"/>

[James Deuce]

There are at least 4 dominant schools of "Feminist" thought, some dogma, some deeply intellectual and at least 1 that is eminently practical.

Which would you have us discuss? The First wave of feminist thought that still dominates the NZ scene? Or Fourth Wave thinkers like Susan Faludi, who operate on the basis of recognising gender difference in a way that allows women to participate in traditional male spheres of operation by modifying the environment they work in, but enforcing cultural and social equality for women?

There's been significant progress in applied feminist schools of thought that have bypassed NZ completely. NZ's retarded attitude to feminism is borne out in the attitudes of some of the more strident KB feminists who insist that men should be punished for the sins of their forefathers.

[Trudes]

I don't associate myself with the word 'feminist'. I'm just me, enjoying being a woman and all that entails. So sometimes I've been in the kitchen cooking my man some eggs, and others I've been out being a hooligan on a motorycle, or scuba diving, or skydiving or doing any of the other 'dangerous boy sports' (as my mum calls them) that take my fancy. I'm still feminine, but I'm having lots of fun.

And because of some "raving feminists" in the past, you get to choose to do those things. :rockon:

[Coyote]

<img src="http://www.interpunk.com/itemimages/75120.jpg"/>
I was emo before it was cool

Then I turned off the fan that was spraying all the shit, now I'm badass. If I get dumped, fuck it, I'll become a pornstar

[Blue Velvet]

There's been significant progress in applied feminist schools of thought that have bypassed NZ completely. NZ's retarded attitude to feminism is borne out in the attitudes of some of the more strident KB feminists who insist that men should be punished for the sins of their forefathers.

Perhaps that is why some NZ women choose to eschew 'feminism'?

[James Deuce]

And because of some "raving feminists" in the past, you get to choose to do those things. :rockon:

Feminism of that sort looks at a very short historical window. The message has been repeated over and over for 40 years. Men are oppressors.

We've had the same freedoms that you've had: The freedom to die penniless, the freedom to never own anything, the freedom to be press-ganged after a night on the town (looking at Western European-Centric history here), and the most important distinction that seems to be a mystical touchstone: the freedom not to vote. Less than 170 years ago, if you weren't a land owner, you didn't vote. Most blokes barely owned more than they could easily carry, a couple of hundred years ago.

[James Deuce]

Perhaps that is why some NZ women choose to eschew 'feminism'?
Yes, but you yourself have bought the "there should be no gender role distinction" myth in its entirety. You are different to me. Your brain works differently, you have a different arrangement of reproductive organs, and your hormonal balance is significantly different. Your upper body strength needs significant conditioning to get to the same level as a relatively sendentary man.

"I don’t subscribe to traditional gender roles."

That's a shame, because children, who aren't capable of reason prior to 4 years of age as a very general average figure, look to men and women for different things without thinking about it. They're not conditioned either, despite some of the feminist dogma out there.

[Blue Velvet]

Men are oppressors.

At times I find women more oppressive than men.

[Hitcher]

Men are all violent rapists who like contact sports and beer; thus completing the cycle. We are inferior to women in all respects, and the sooner we recognise and accept this reality the better things will be for all. Women don't need men -- indeed it is possible for women to procreate without male "intervention" in any form. But men need women. And contact sports and beer. It is this inevitable redundancy that will create future challenges for all of us so unfortunate to be stricken with the Curse of the Y Chromosome.

[Blue Velvet]

Yes, but you yourself have bought the "there should be no gender role distinction" myth in its entirety. You are different to me. Your brain works differently, you have a different arrangement of reproductive organs, and your hormonal balance is significantly different. Your upper body strength needs significant conditioning to get to the same level as a relatively sendentary man.

"I don’t subscribe to traditional gender roles."

That's a shame, because children, who aren't capable of reason prior to 4 years of age as a very general average figure, look to men and women for different things without thinking about it. They're not conditioned either, despite some of the feminist dogma out there.

But I also said 'but I am a female', which is acknowledgement of the fact men and women are different.

Edit: Funny you should mention upper body strength, as I've used this as an example myself a few times in the last week or two.

[Nagash]

Well in this day and age feminism is actually means from the point of few of the average female. Not a free-rights psycho activist.

Had an interesting exam at school in a Geography paper where I had to write an essay on the point of view of main geographical locations from the point of view of a feminist. (What a female thinks of the CBD, Local Village etc. etc.) Unfortunately I wasn't exactly paying attention and I thought they meant the psycho kind.. didn't do too well on that one..

[Blue Velvet]

Men are all violent rapists who like contact sports and beer; thus completing the cycle. We are inferior to women in all respects, and the sooner we recognise and accept this reality the better things will be for all. Women don't need men -- indeed it is possible for women to procreate without male "intervention" in any form. But men need women. And contact sports and beer. It is this inevitable redundancy that will create future challenges for all of us so unfortunate to be stricken with the Curse of the Y Chromosome.

LOL, made me think of Sirens of Titan by Mister Vonnegut

[Hitcher]

LOL, made me think of Sirens of Titan by Mister Vonnegut

If I could multi-task (i.e. think and type at the same time), I'd post a witty response.

[jrandom]

... upper body strength, as I've used this as an example myself a few times in the last week or two.

Awww, yes, you have such cute widdle hands!

[Number One]

Let's look at how things are right here and now, and put in place measures the correct any shortcomings - on both sides.

“We are not able to effect any significant change until we recognise the dynamic immune system by which we continuously manufacture non-change.”

Just a thought AND gosh I don't have any answers....But my thoughts (in addition to all that especially Man Down Under and 007xy have said) is...

As a woman, wife, mother to a boy and self confessed tomboy - I DO think things have gone out of balance...no wonder (some) men are confused, defensive and a bit angry with 'hairy feminists'. My mental model around the 'Feminist' label is a negative one and frankly I would hate to be called a feminist as I wouldn't automatically assume I was being referred to as someone who believes in the equal and fair rights of both sexes. Agree with Man Down Under and many others on here - it should be about equality and hey life sucks and is unfair sometimes and from my view that actually goes BOTH ways.

I am a strong woman, will speak my mind and do the boys jobs round the house, expect hubby to do some of the 'girls jobs' too (infact he is better at many of them...no one cleans an oven like Sully60:love:) this is all IMHO healthy for our boy to witness.

I DO object to how men have been run out of certain professions and activities (where are the men that my boy can look up to at daycare? Nowhere to be seen!) and while I don't 'expect' a man to open the door for me or offer to help me with a heavy load...I certainly do appreciate chivalry and am always quick to follow any I am awarded with up with a genuine "thank you kind sir!"

I love men to be men and I am not one for pretty boys or softy boys but I do like it when a man feels confident and safe enough to let his tender side show with me. Go get em boys...just don't hate us girls for what the hairy feminists have achieved..we don't all think you should be kept in cages and taken out now and then just for amusement!!!

To sum up - I guess I would call myself a 'ChauvaFem' - boys and girls can and should do anything!

NB: Difference is good but sticking us all in boxes is NOT

[James Deuce]

But I also said 'but I am a female', which is acknowledgement of the fact men and women are different.
You did, but I don't think you accept that the differences are unequivocal. For some reason those differences have become a bad thing.

Those gender roles you speak of have grown out of the birth of the Protestant Church and the Industrial revolution. The Nuclear family is not as it has always been and better not be how it will always be.

[Blue Velvet]

You did, but I don't think you accept that the differences are unequivocal. For some reason those differences have become a bad thing.

No way. Differences are good.

[Blue Velvet]

Awww, yes, you have such cute widdle hands!

:o

Eeeeeek. Actually they're really useful for getting into tight spaces.

[Grub]

.... interesting exam at school in a Geography paper where I had to write an essay on the point of view of main geographical locations from the point of view of a feminist. (What a female thinks of the CBD, Local Village etc. etc.) Unfortunately ..

You are kidding ... aren't you? What on god's earth does that have to do with Geography since feminism is a political movement

[Grahameeboy]

shit then I must be damn cute, because I am accused of being an opinionated bitch often! :confused:

I have a few thoughts on this... might take the time to write them down later.

However I find it sad when a woman is proud and strong in her ways and feels there should be no "separation" in people no matter what their gender the next thing she is accused of being a feminist.

Im not a feminist.

I belive in equality no matter what gender/religion/physicality/what the fuck ever other compartment you want to put someone in...

I agree, what ever happened to men and women being people eh?

I think that Feminism probably stemmed from Emily Pankhurst who ran in front of some horses and it has since been expanded a bit.

A bit like 'Partner'. Was used by Gay couples in the 70's to get around things when Gays were not so acceptable as they are now and is now used by Hetrosexuals...what ever happened to 'Girlfriend'

[jrandom]

... what ever happened to 'Girlfriend'

I don't think anything happened to it; last time I checked, both you and I had one...

[Grahameeboy]

No way. Differences are good.

Only if those differences are accepted.

[jrandom]

... they're really useful for getting into tight spaces.

Oh my!

:shutup:

[Hitcher]

what ever happened to 'Girlfriend'

I'm currently running the latest version of GirlFriend and I have been having some problems lately. I have been running the same version of DrinkingBuddies 1.0 forever as my primary application, and all the Girlfriend releases I have tried have always conflicted with it. I hear that Drinking Buddies runs fine as long as Girlfriend is ran in background mode and the sound is turned off.

Unfortunately, I can't find the switch to turn the sound off. Therefore, I have to run both of them separately. Girlfriend also seems to have a problem coexisting with my Golf program, often trying to abort Golf with some form of timing incompatibilities.

I probably should have stayed with Girlfriend 1.0, but I thought I might see better performance from GirlFriend 2.0. After months of conflicts and other problems, I consulted a friend who has had experience with Girlfriend 2.0. He said I probably didn't have enough cache to run Girlfriend 2.0 and eventually it would require a Token Ring to run properly. He was right, as soon as I purged my cache, and realized that no one in their right mind is installing new token rings, Girlfriend 2.0 uninstalled itself.

Shortly after that, I installed Girlfriend 3.0 beta. Unfortunately, there was a bug in the program and the first time I used it, it gave me a virus. I had to clean out my whole system and shut down for a while. I very cautiously upgraded to Girlfriend 4.0. This time I used SCSI probe first and also installed a virus protection program. It worked okay for a while until I discovered that GirlFriend 1.0 was still in my system. I tried running Girlfriend 1.0 again with Girlfriend 4.0 still installed, but Girlfriend 4.0 has a feature I didn't know about that automatically senses the presence of any other version of Girlfriend and communicates with it in some way. This results in the immediate removal of both versions.

The version I have now works pretty well, but there are still some problems. Like all versions of GirlFriend, it is written in some obscure language I can't understand, much less reprogram. Frankly, I think there is too much attention paid to the look and feel rather than the desired functionality.

Also, to get the best connections with your hardware, you usually have to use gold-plated contacts and I have never liked how GirlFriend is “object-oriented.”

A year ago a friend of mine upgraded his version of Girlfriend to GirlFriendPlus 1.0, which is a Terminate and Stay Resident version of GirlFriend. He discovered that GirlFriendPlus 1.0 expires within a year if you don't upgrade to Fiance 1.0. So he did, but soon after that, he had to upgrade to Wife 1.0, which he describes as a huge resource hog. It has taken up all his space: He can't load anything else. One of the primary reasons he decided to go with Wife 1.0 was because it supposedly came bundled with a feature called FreeSex Plus.

Well, it turns out the resource requirements of Wife 1.0 sometimes prohibits access to FreeSexPlus, particularly the new Plug-ins he wanted to try. On top of that, Wife 1.0 must be running on a well warmed-up system before he can do anything. Although he did not ask for it, Wife 1.0 came with MotherInLaw which has an automatic pop-up feature he can't turn off. I told him to trying installing Mistress 1.0, but he said he heard if you try to run it without first uninstalling Wife 1.0, Wife 1.0 will delete MSMoney files before uninstalling itself. Then Mistress 1.0 won't install because of insufficient resources.

P.S. Watch out for the K-I-D-S virus because they have an insatiable appetite for memory and CPU time over and above everything else above.

[Grahameeboy]

I don't think anything happened to it; last time I checked, both you and I had one...

But I was asleep!!:baby:

But seems these days the use of 'My Partner' is universal

[Blue Velvet]

Only if those differences are accepted.

Or appreciated.

[Grahameeboy]

I'm currently running the latest version of GirlFriend and I have been having some problems lately. I have been running the same version of DrinkingBuddies 1.0 forever as my primary application, and all the Girlfriend releases I have tried have always conflicted with it. I hear that Drinking Buddies runs fine as long as Girlfriend is ran in background mode and the sound is turned off.

Unfortunately, I can't find the switch to turn the sound off. Therefore, I have to run both of them separately. Girlfriend also seems to have a problem coexisting with my Golf program, often trying to abort Golf with some form of timing incompatibilities.

I probably should have stayed with Girlfriend 1.0, but I thought I might see better performance from GirlFriend 2.0. After months of conflicts and other problems, I consulted a friend who has had experience with Girlfriend 2.0. He said I probably didn't have enough cache to run Girlfriend 2.0 and eventually it would require a Token Ring to run properly. He was right, as soon as I purged my cache, and realized that no one in their right mind is installing new token rings, Girlfriend 2.0 uninstalled itself.

Shortly after that, I installed Girlfriend 3.0 beta. Unfortunately, there was a bug in the program and the first time I used it, it gave me a virus. I had to clean out my whole system and shut down for a while. I very cautiously upgraded to Girlfriend 4.0. This time I used SCSI probe first and also installed a virus protection program. It worked okay for a while until I discovered that GirlFriend 1.0 was still in my system. I tried running Girlfriend 1.0 again with Girlfriend 4.0 still installed, but Girlfriend 4.0 has a feature I didn't know about that automatically senses the presence of any other version of Girlfriend and communicates with it in some way. This results in the immediate removal of both versions.

The version I have now works pretty well, but there are still some problems. Like all versions of GirlFriend, it is written in some obscure language I can't understand, much less reprogram. Frankly, I think there is too much attention paid to the look and feel rather than the desired functionality.

Also, to get the best connections with your hardware, you usually have to use gold-plated contacts and I have never liked how GirlFriend is “object-oriented.”

A year ago a friend of mine upgraded his version of Girlfriend to GirlFriendPlus 1.0, which is a Terminate and Stay Resident version of GirlFriend. He discovered that GirlFriendPlus 1.0 expires within a year if you don't upgrade to Fiance 1.0. So he did, but soon after that, he had to upgrade to Wife 1.0, which he describes as a huge resource hog. It has taken up all his space: He can't load anything else. One of the primary reasons he decided to go with Wife 1.0 was because it supposedly came bundled with a feature called FreeSex Plus.

Well, it turns out the resource requirements of Wife 1.0 sometimes prohibits access to FreeSexPlus, particularly the new Plug-ins he wanted to try. On top of that, Wife 1.0 must be running on a well warmed-up system before he can do anything. Although he did not ask for it, Wife 1.0 came with MotherInLaw which has an automatic pop-up feature he can't turn off. I told him to trying installing Mistress 1.0, but he said he heard if you try to run it without first uninstalling Wife 1.0, Wife 1.0 will delete MSMoney files before uninstalling itself. Then Mistress 1.0 won't install because of insufficient resources.

P.S. Watch out for the K-I-D-S virus because they have an insatiable appetite for memory and CPU time over and above everything else above.

I was going to check your grammar but it would have taken too long....

[kiwifruit]

I'm currently running the latest version of GirlFriend and I have been having some problems lately..........

Classic! :lol:

[Number One]

I'm currently running the latest version of GirlFriend and I have been having some problems lately. I have been running the same version of DrinkingBuddies 1.0 forever as my primary application, and all the Girlfriend releases I have tried have always conflicted with it. I hear that Drinking Buddies runs fine as long as Girlfriend is ran in background mode and the sound is turned off.

An oldie but a goodie - nice!

[Grahameeboy]

Or appreciated.

I guess it depends whether there is a need for appreciation, if that makes sense

[Trudes]

The only reason that I'm happy to think of myself as a 'feminist' is that I'm very bloody happy some women decided, "to hell with being told what I can and can't do, I'm a person, not a possession or an animal", got out of the kitchen and fought for the right for herself, other women and millions of women in the future's right to have freedoms and choices they never had before, and yes, I'm very proud that they did this.
I do not deny that some of what has happened in the name of feminism is unfortunate for men and women and there are a lot of confused people out there. However I liken it to some of the racial issues in NZ. It is not every white person in NZ's fault that 200 years ago white people came to NZ and may or may not have given Maori a raw deal on some stuff, but many white people in NZ feel they are blamed for it, are still paying for it and accused of being oppressors. Hey, I wasn't there, neither were any of my ancestors, why am I getting accused?
I say I identify with the feminist ideology, however I don't hate men, and I don't blame all men for all the problems of the world, I do however think we are very lucky in NZ that women here do have equal rights and choices, but lets not forget that not every woman in the world has the same luxury, there are still many cultures that treat women like possessions or a slab of meat, and if there is any part of you that thinks that is wrong, then maybe you have slight feminist tendencies also... :shut-up:
JMO

[jrandom]

The only reason that I'm happy to think of myself as a 'feminist'...

Yes, you're the perfect height, too.

*pat pat*

[ManDownUnder]

Or appreciated.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's the guts of it for me.

[Trudes]

Yes, you're the perfect height, too.

*pat pat*

:bleh: midgets are the correct height for nut punching!

[ManDownUnder]

:bleh: midgets are the correct height for nut punching!

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh bling for that one ... best laugh of the week... (go get 'im!)

[El Dopa]

Or Fourth Wave thinkers like Susan Faludi

Bling for mentioning Susan Faludi - I found 'backlash' and 'stiffed' to be very interesting reads.

[Trudes]

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh bling for that one ... best laugh of the week... (go get 'im!)

hehe, nothing like a bit of cracking nuts. This thread was started at about the same time as I started watching Kill Bill, a bit of unfortunate bad luck really.....

[Her_C4]

That's not to say I don't appreciate the views of men. I do - I just happen to have most of them already. I have the most to gain - the most to learn - from women. Why the hell would I want to deny myself of that... and like any zealot, I'm keen to convert others to my point of view.



Great response - I have met many men who think like you do, we all (men AND women) have a lot to learn from each other don't we? The world will be a pretty boring place if we choose to forget or ignore this.


I don't associate myself with the word 'feminist'. I'm just me, enjoying being a woman and all that entails. So sometimes I've been in the kitchen cooking my man some eggs, and others I've been out being a hooligan on a motorycle, or scuba diving, or skydiving or doing any of the other 'dangerous boy sports' (as my mum calls them) that take my fancy. I'm still feminine, but I'm having lots of fun.

Yes - :niceone:you are who you are... gotta' admit I am pretty much the same.


:yes: personally I prefer the term gender equality to feminism.

I think to a degree, feminism has been a victim of its own success. In NZ almost all the glaring inequalities towards women have been addressed.

I note that you say 'almost all'... does this include equal pay for equal work in your view
?

LOL... yes they are out there. The ocassional social handgrenade just waiting to go off in the face of unsuspecting penis bearers LOL.

My all time favourite - at Massey University (PN) book shop. I get to a glass door that opened towards me just as someone else did so I opened it and waited for them to come through... common courtesy ... no?

Apparently not. It was yet another affront to her already subjugated existnce in patriarcal... blah blah blah. She went right off at me... so I did the decent thing - cut her off walked through and made sure the door was closed behind me so she'd have to do the whole damned thing herself.

To this day I'm glad she did it. It gave me plenty to think about, and a story I'll carry for the rest of my life. Part of me pities her though. I didn't take the time (or get the chance) to understand her side of the story.

To get the example and reframe it to what I would like to see happen... she would have stepped through - then held the door for me. THAT'S equality

Equality? Or just plain good manners?? I open doors for 'people' regardless of their gender......... I was bought up to respect others - I can't help it ... it was beaten into me.....


I agree - women with moderate views may feel that they can't relate to feminism - if they perceive it to be strong minded and antagonistic. But to me, feminism/ecofeminism is about understanding why we have arrived at the place we have, what forces have shaped our constitutions, our laws, our societal constructs.

Before we can move forward we have to understand where we've come from - and understand without blame.



Are we just talking about feminism here???? Shouldn't we all, as individuals and as a society understand where we have come from (indeed without blame:niceone:) before we can move move forward with any confidence?

[Grub]

I was going to check your grammar but it would have taken too long....

Remind me to show you where the Backspace and Delete keys are. AntiSpacehog 3.11 uses them for quote editing, should be ok to try.

[Sharry]

Women with opinions are cute.

:)

Thank you, jrandom, I shall now preserve all my opinions, preferably in vodka.

[Grahameeboy]

Remind me to show you where the Backspace and Delete keys are. AntiSpacehog 3.11 uses them for quote editing, should be ok to try.

Ok........................

[Her_C4]

A bit :Offtopic: but is IS my thread.... I laughed at the quote of the day today on http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ attributed to Nietzsche .... sounds like the sort of thing my partner would say....

"Ah, women. They make the highs higher and the lows more frequent."

[Edbear]

...the fact men and women are different.


Thank God for that...

[Disco Dan]

So - What is ‘feminism’ to you? :cool:

Pendulum swing...


In a nut shell - women unhappy in the 50s all the 'equal rights' for women malarky and suffrage etc came about... now it is swinging further past the natural balance point with women taking on 'male jobs' only women being given custody to children in courts, pedophiles are suspected in every male school teacher and women have started wearing suit and ties to work... that brings me to lesbianism - I blame the 70s for that and all those luverley drugs, but women are slowing 'giving up' finding a man that 'fits' their criteria, a criteria that is so 'fairytale' and complex that only an artificially created robot man could even get close to to fulfilling. In short we are all getting picky, turning the bread over and just laying on that butter real thick.

....now bring on the hairy militant lesbian lynch mob!

Sorry chicks but you want equality in the work force, equal respect - but get pissy when us men dont open doors for you? Now THATS fucked up - but very typical female logic/thinking.

Interestingly enough it was so long ago that I felt very strongly about lesbianism and would have had no guilt making it illegal. Now I know it is just a mutation of 'normal' genes/thinking and that mutation has survived long enough for it to have spread and become accepted and 'normal' in society. ..oh and my friend at work is doing a BIG thesis on lesbianism - apparently im about 3 pages worth just because of my odd views!!!!

now im off to work.. the clinically insane are waiting for my sane wisdom....

[Grahameeboy]

Thank God for that...

and remember who decided they were better than God...........

[ManDownUnder]

Equality? Or just plain good manners?? I open doors for 'people' regardless of their gender......... I was bought up to respect others - I can't help it ... it was beaten into me.....

LOL you and me both re the beatings.

In my my the opening door example is both equality and good manners. I'm polite to everyone equally. Just as I should be rude to everyone equally if it ever came to that (not the way I was dragged up).

Interestingly this is an issue I've had to grapple with from the other side of the fence. My family is quite traditional in many ways with the man expected to walk on the right of a woman down the footpath (reason being it sheilds/protects her from oncoming people), or sleeps on the side of the bed nearest the door (protection in the event of a break in) etc.

On this issue though (feminism in general)... back at Uni I did a degree in Business Management, and figured it was white middle class stuff, so as part of the degree did a few "interesting" but related papers. My all time favourite was Career Development for Women at Work (Murna Thompson, Massey Uni in PN).

I swear I learned about 5 times as much as anyone else in the class (I was only guy in a class of 40+). Each theory or topic explored would be met with the usual "mm hmm..." and learning by everyone else in the class... but I was sitting there just amased at some of the concepts coming at me. I never knew they existed (why would I?).

Glass ceilings, natural career impacts introduced by childbearing, breastfeeding etc etc etc. Right down to the way we think differently (generaliasation here but..)

[Disco Dan]

Why are people concerned about the situation of boys in today’s education and how sensible are recent suggestions for dealing with this issue?



Since the beginning of formal education there has been a definite bias towards males, starting with the complete exclusion of females, then a gradual increase until a state of equality was supposedly reached. Now it seems that the huge push by feminists starting at the beginning of the 1900’s has had a follow on effect in today’s social and educational perspectives. The movements appear to have continued past the balance point, past the point of equality (Wikipedia, 2007). This has in turn created a situation where boys in the education system are underachieving. So what is there to be worried about? What can be done about it? Should anything be done?

Although the suffrage movements of the early 1900’s were not directed at education specifically, a definite trend was started. The 1960’s brought about feminist inequality issues and this was subsequently resurrected again as recently as the 1990’s. So could this century old trend of female insecurities be as influential today, affecting our education system this time and more specifically, males? New Zealand’s education system is required to cater to both males and females equally, so why is it that recent research is indicating the contrary? Research conducted by the Australian Education Committee, stated that a basic trait that boys and girls learn differently is being ignored. Also through the use of certain assessment methods and teaching styles it is remarkably straightforward to create a specific advantage towards boys or girls (AEC, 2002, p22). Is there a connection with this, and the fact that also stated is that, in New Zealand 80% of primary school teachers are female? Policies have been in place that caters for the specific learning needs of girls for the last 12 years, could this have something to do with the boy’s underachievement? There are many other factors that appear to be contributing towards their underachievement, including the popular ‘call out gap’ notion; with varied and conflicting evidence making analysis next to impossible (Sommers, C.H, 2000, p. 70). In addition there is evidence suggesting attentiveness is an important factorization that should be considered, as boys are generally less attentive (compared to girls) and thus less likely to internalize information and process what is being taught.

So what can be done? One of the main factors has already been stated, and that is the hugely disproportionate ratio of male/female primary school teachers. New Zealand families are becoming increasingly complex and more are missing the male role model. As a result, research is beginning to suggest that boy’s disruptive and sometimes violent behavior is a direct result of this important social experience being missing from their lives (Sommers, C.H, 2000, p. 73). Attracting more male teachers into the profession can only make improvements to New Zealand’s education system regardless of anyone’s opinions on role models. Higher pay, better training and increased awareness of these issues will be of great benefit to our upcoming generations of boys (AEC, 2002, p23). The Australian Committee even recommended that children be tested for hearing and vision problems before the commencement of their schooling to pick up on any potential problems before they even begin their schooling. This paper has simply created more questions than it has answered but hopefully more research will continue on this subject and some of these questions will be answered.

Daniel S




PS - No taking the micky out of my eassay writing skills please!!! I know im rubbish at it!!!!

[MSTRS]

Bring back John Wayne and Clark Gable, I say!!!
And Linda Lovelace...



NZ's retarded attitude to feminism is borne out in the attitudes of some of the more strident KB feminists who insist that men should be punished for the sins of their forefathers.

Substitute 'Maori Activism' for 'Feminism' - not much difference really. Selfish, shortsighted, destructive.

[KATWYN]

To me, simply put, feminisim is about equality in all aspects of life, equal rights, and equal choices, not just for women but for men also, it's no longer a 'the women against the men' thing, but about equality and respect for all.

Agreed.

Also a lot of us say we are not feminists, but then go on to make comments about believing in equal rights etc. Don't mean to freak you out but there are three types of feminist. Liberal, cultural and radical. I relate (and i'm sure the majority of us do, including men) to liberal and cultural feminism.

However the radicals (in Western society)... IMHO I think are over the top....and unfortunately the radical groups always seem to become representitive of any positive movement that is trying to bring about positive change so it kinda ruins it for the rest of us. End result: Peoples general understanding of feminism is based on "aggressive radicals" therefore understandably turning the word feminism into something to be feared and not want to be associated with

[Rosie]

Pendulum swing...


In a nut shell - women unhappy in the 50s all the 'equal rights' for women malarky and suffrage etc came about... now it is swinging further past the natural balance point with women taking on 'male jobs' ...

Can you give some examples of these 'male jobs'?

[karla]

So - What is ‘feminism’ to you? :cool:

A doctrine that advocates equal rights for all women (regardless of age, ethnicity etc)?

An outdated concept / theory that was started in the 19th century and has no validity in this day and age?

A social movement that attempts to address, analyse and interpret issues of particular importance for women (e.g. domestic violence, pay equity, globalisation)?

A movement started by power crazy ‘hairy lesbians’ for the purpose of mocking and putting down all men on this earth?

Something else entirely?


Feminism to me used to be about a movement towards equality for women .. until I started looking really closely at it, and learning about it. It was very disturbing to realise that my whole life I was sold a bill of rights which was based on a conclusion drawn from false premises.

Women have always been equal to men - we have never been "above" or "below".

We are all in this together, and I've learned that for every action there is a reaction. While women are fighting for the right to work and equal pay, men are fighting to be stay-at-home dad's, or to have basic rights of access to their children. When men die young because they have worked themselves to death, or in some war that is not of their making, women are left alone.

There is strength in unity - feminism and it's rival, men's rights, are to my mind political and divisive. There are too many casulties from gender wars. We are human, we are social beings, and we need each other, therefore we all have to learn to get along.



And finally

"Feminism - I myself have never known what feminism is. I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat." -Rebecca West, 1913

This made me smile, but it is also a classic example of women oppressing other women. It's the classic 'shame and blame' game - if women are being doormats we think that is a "bad" thing ... but the reality is that being a doormat is often just a part of a growing and learning phase. It can also be a choice - to my mind it takes a very strong woman to hold her tongue, and give a man an upper place.

Unless the cycle is broken the oppressed often become the oppressors, the abused become the abusers and the hurt become the hurters. That can only be done with love.


"Love is really a verb, not a noun. The lover is filled with love. All major religions have this somewhere in their teachings. Sexuality is NOT love. Sexuality is sexuality. It is mother nature's little trick for making surethere are more little species running around. Sexuality is a need, a drive,a hunger, and as such is not under conscious control. Loving well is the achievement of a mature spirit, and while it may have its elements of lust (from luster - to shine), passion, it is always creative, never destructive. Being destructive in the name of love is sacriledge which merits burning at the stake."
http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/vines/3951/sex.html

[jazbug5]

Interesting topic; a lot of great replies which I think I will go back and re-read when less tired and busy.

But for now? In response to what Katwyn just said- isn't it interesting how it's the nutters who always get chosen to be the supposed 'mouthpieces' for a whole movement or belief system? Kind of like how Al Quaeda supposedly speak for all Muslims.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I find this rather tedious.

Something else: people like to go on about how 'Feminism has gone too far', and suggest that 'Feminism' (as if it's like some sort of organised establishment with leaders or something) is responsible for the mess the world is in.
Well: riddle me this. Why is it that young girls in the West have this idea that to be strong and 'empowered' like their MTV role models they have to wiggle their (barely) hotpants-clad butts while striving to look as vacuous as possible? Then, see- they learn that if they look that hot, they can have loads and loads of money for nothing more than making sure they look 'that hot'. The guys who buy into that (and want someone who doesn't have any discernable opinions) then act all shocked when the bitch turns round after a couple of years and takes off with half their worldly possessions. And then all women are manipulative b*tches. And, er... this is all the fault of Feminism. Riiight.

Meanwhile, all over the world women from poorer countries are being trafficked as slaves by organised crime, after being promised better lives and jobs in the West. I'm still trying to work out how Feminism can be blamed for that. I'm sure there must be a way.

Now, recently I've gone through a spate of watching old black and white movies, and you know what? I really think we should get those old scriptwriters from the 1940s and thereabouts out of retirement. (Okay, I know this seems a bit off topic, but indulge me.)
Female stars like Lauren Bacall and Katherine Hepburn (and many others) were really pretty inspirational. Sexy, funny and ballsy women- the Bogarts of the era would doff their hats, indulge in a little verbal jousting with their leading ladies, and everyone had a good time. Apart from the getting shot part, of course. I digress. The point is, in those seemingly unenlightened times, men and women were perfectly capable of liking and respecting each other. And my God, the lines were better! And now what have we in the media? Insipid simulacra, that's what.

So, I dunno. I grew up in a pretty traditional family of oddballs where an unusually large number of the women had been in the Forces in the Second World War or had to raise their kids alone, and the blokes did their thing, respected the women (why wouldn't they?) and everyone got on with it and argued about other crap as equals.

But- what a shock! It wasn't like that everywhere...
I think most of the women here will have been ignored, overruled or belittled because they are female. Actually, all will have been. We're used to it, I think, for the most part, and often it's completely unthinking. I think that that sort of attitude (and many other crappy ones I haven't got the time or wit right now to list) and equally shitty ones displayed by some women do a disservice to us all.

How pointless the 'gender war' is. I hate seeing women getting pushed around and walked over, and I hate seeing men getting pushed around and walked over (though- be fair... a less common occurrence in reality even though you tend to shout more because you notice it more cause you don't expect it neh-neh-neh neeeeeh-neh!).

Anyway, I'm really kind of tired, and didn't mean to write this much.
Sorry, I'll stop now.

[slowpoke]

Fookin' hell I don't think I've seen such a variance in posting views on one topic before....everything from the sublimely equanimical to barely suppressed anger. While much is obvious in the written word there seems to be just as much to read between the lines.

We seem to have moved away from "What is feminism?" to debating the merits of feminism and it's affect on our society, not necessarily a bad thing and probably a more interesting discussion.

Ok, now for my loony leanings....I've started and erased about 5 times now so who know's what's gonna come out:

Personally I reckon it all comes down to personal responsibility. In the current climate there is no personal accountability as everyone is a victim. Individually we may want things to change but individually we aren't prepared to make the changes and we aren't prepared to say "Oi, that's not right." We see many injustices on a daily basis yet most of us just put our heads down and walk on by or put up with it. Who better to affect our own work/family/economic/natural environment than ourselves, yet most of us expect someone else to act on our behalf.

It's really no suprise I suppose with the cult of "self esteem" pervading our society. Why would we have a realistic view of how the world operates when we have been nurtured to think you are just big boned when you are obese, not yet competent when you are inattentive/lazy, opinionated when you are vicious, it's not your fault 'cos you come from a broken home etc. It's not all about you.....but you are the person who can most influence your environment. If you aren't prepared to say or do something about an issue then it can't be that important to you...regardless of your gender.

[Number One]

"We are not able to effect any significant change until we recognise the dynamic immune system by which we continuously manufacture non-change.”

[ManDownUnder]

Anyway, I'm really kind of tired, and didn't mean to write this much.

... glad you did. Thanks! (I ran out of bling for you... but it would heading your way otherwise.).

Jazz - next time we are in the same town I want to meet you. Total respect for your points of view. Very very cool

[PrincessBandit]

sigh, i just like to think that men and women can complEment each other, and either side step up to the mark to perform tasks equally well when required (oh, okay, childbirth aside...)
but that's just me.

[007XX]

Interesting topic; a lot of great replies which I think I will go back and re-read when less tired and busy.

And everything in between




Ok, now for my loony leanings....I've started and erased about 5 times now so who know's what's gonna come out:

.


I really have to meet the two of you at some stage...as I am certain it will make for some of the most insteresting conversations ever!

Love the way you think!