wtf?

[Katman]

Where has the "Accidents - Cause and Effect" thread gone? One of the most positive and heartening responses to a death of a motorcyclist seems to have disappeared.

[Ixion]

Always happens. By no means the first time.

The site ethos is resolutely opposed to anything that reminds people that crashing can kill you.

Such threads make people , including the Heaven Born too uncomfortabel.

A simple RIP thread, that's OK, because folk can just think "Oh, how terrible, glad that'll never happen to me"

But discussion of what causes people to die strikes to close to home. Makes folk think "but, but, but , *I* do that. Shit that means that *I* could die". Which is an unthinkable thought, and causes lots of people to demand that the offending thread be closed down. They "don't want to have to see that sort of stuff".

Every time there's a fatal crash it happens. None so blind as they who will not see.

[kneescraper]

The Mods prob thought it was best to remove it...dont know why..thats just what they do...fuck knows?

Waiting for Ixon to starting dissing them (please please)

[Cajun]

it was moved due to against the site Rules
according to this rules in this thread http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=883130&postcount=1

espially even more so since the family has posted, and said the information given at the start of the post, is total against what they have been told.

[kneescraper]

FUCK, THE PRICK BET ME TO IT.

You rock dude, your my idol...in being serious btw.

[Katman]

it was moved due to against the site Rules
according to this rules in this thread http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=883130&postcount=1

espially even more so since the family has posted, and said the information given at the start of the post, is total against what they have been told.

Load of shit. That thread far transcended the death that occured yesterday.

[Swoop]

Hmm. Totally deleted.
Like another recent thread that made it to PD, then vanished.

Bad bikers! Baaaad.

[Katman]

it was moved due to against the site Rules
according to this rules in this thread http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=883130&postcount=1

espially even more so since the family has posted, and said the information given at the start of the post, is total against what they have been told.

If that's really the case, why not just remove the couple of posts that refered directly to yesterdays accident. The rest of the thread was one of the most pertinent and useful threads I've read on this site so far.

[JimO]

you out of the sinbin then kat:Pokey:man

[Ixion]

Nonsense. There is nothing at all wrong with saying to someone "I notice you have a habit of X. It's a rather bad habit, because Y. Maybe you don't realise you are doing it, it is an easy thing to get into the habit of. I know I do it myself , and it's something I am working on to correct".

Not that I do, cos I can't be arsed anymore trying to stop people killing themselves . I realised a while ago that KB is Ostrich Central and that all people want to do is stick their heads in the sand. Every crash is "just one of those things"; "shit happens" ; just a silly mistake"; "it was the other guy's fault".

The original comment pertained specifically to the behaviour on the ride, so it can't be off topic. Someone else posted that they enjoyed following rider X, whose lines were very smooth. Was that off topic also ?

The reason for the complaints is not that the post was off topic. It's because people become angry when anyone suggests taking their heads out of the sand.

There'll be more funeral threads here before the season's done. .

Didn't take long for the prediction to come to pass, alas. It won't be the last this season.

Maybe the Heaven Born should make dying against the rulez. Then we could all live for ever.

[Nagash]

I was a bit miffed when I saw that it had been swept under the rug. I'm also one who tends to ride pretty quick around the residential areas (not that quick though) but definately not anymore.

I don't see what was offensive about pointing out and discussing and learning from the mistakes of other riders. Especially something as major as a death.

Poor sportsmanship in my view..

[White trash]

If the family asked it be removed, how about we respect that? This tradgedy only occured a couple of days ago.

[Swoop]

Hmm.
A quick check of the members list and Oarbreaker no longer exists.

EDIT: Spellded it rong... dummy!

[Toaster]

Guys, you might want to read the rules as linked via Cajun's post.

It's not some conspiracy by Moderators - the rules are quite reasonable given the sensitive nature of the topic it relates to.

[Toaster]

Hmm.
A quick check of the members list and Oarbreaker no longer exists.

Yes he does, it's just that your spelling was slightly incorrect. It's 0arbreaka not Oarbreaker.

[Katman]

If the family asked it be removed, how about we respect that? This tradgedy only occured a couple of days ago.

If that's really the case then it could have been fixed by removing or editing a couple of posts. There was more positive affirmation of responsible riding in that one thread then I've seen in my whole time on this site.

[Big Dave]

If the family asked it be removed, how about we respect that? This tradgedy only occured a couple of days ago.

Occasionally you make real good sense James.

[Big Dave]

No Katman that's not a limb - that's just being disrespectful to grieving parents.

Button it for now. Save us another day.

[fireball]

bloody hell why are you sitting here pissing and moaning about something so trivial.
a thread was removed for a reason, people out there are hurting from a great loss.
respect them and his family.

[Tank]

That is the most selfish, pathetic post I have EVER read on ANY forum.
Your post is disgusting.

[Str8 Jacket]

Not the time nor the place. You are being a selfish retard.

[Swoop]

Yes he does, it's just that your spelling was slightly incorrect. It's 0arbreaka not Oarbreaker.
Doh!:slap:

*Goes and sits in the corner with the dyslexics*

[Katman]

So the Kiwibiker head gets buried in the sand yet again.

[PrincessBandit]

If the family asked it be removed, how about we respect that? This tradgedy only occured a couple of days ago.

Just out of curiosity, did the family ask for it to be removed, or is this speculation. (Just asking)

[Str8 Jacket]

So the Kiwibiker head gets buried in the sand yet again.

You are being so very disrespectful it is not funny. There is a time and a place for everything. This is NOT the time. Have a heart man. Try putting yourself in the family and friends shoes.

[Big Dave]

You button it.

I understand your message.
I don't agree with its timing.

[tri boy]

So the Kiwibiker head gets buried in the sand yet again.

Seriously man, leave it be for a day or two aye. Peoples views will be acknowledged and debated in the same way, but a respectful time needs to be adhered to for those who knew this lad.

[ArcherWC]

You button it.
idiot....give it a rest

[MSTRS]

You button it.

You Sir, are a cretin!

[jrandom]

I understand your message.
I don't agree with its timing.

I'm with the insensitive loudmouthed Aussie on this one.

On the whole, if there are people arranging a funeral who find it upsetting for us to have that conversation in public, I'm prepared to leave it for a while.

[yungatart]

You button it.

At this point in time, it is all about one family's feelings!
I can't believe how heartless you are. this is not the place, nor the time for your campaign.

[Katman]

You are being so very disrespectful it is not funny. There is a time and a place for everything. This is NOT the time. Have a heart man. Try putting yourself in the family and friends shoes.

There's a seperate RIP thread that I haven't even set foot in. Like I said, the response today in the 'Accident' thread was some of the most positive I've read in the four years I've frequented this site.

[325rocket]

......

that blows me away!
if your so keen on breaking site rules i might have a go myself. you sir are a prize cock. ive just had a quick look through you post history and all you do is piss and moan but this is a new low!

i agree with some of what you have said in the past re being real and understanding we can all do things to minimise risk but this has really pissed me off!

[Ixion]

Seriously man, leave it be for a day or two aye. Peoples views will be acknowledged and debated in the same way, but a respectful time needs to be adhered to for those who knew this lad.

No, they won't. The truth is too uncomfortable ever to be acknowledged here.

The site's ethos guarantees that such deaths will continue.

No pint getting worked up about it though. Its just the way it is. Binning's cool, and when it isn't we'll pretend it never happened.

[Nagash]

As long as we can bring the thread back after the funeral i'll be satisfied.

I didn't have a clue the family requested it to be taken down, I can understand their reasoning but I do hope it does come back into light eventually.

No problem with leaving it be for a day or two.

[Swoop]

Katman. Looking at your "top five negatively repped posts", a grand total of four of them are about "biker down" threads.

Food for thought, perhaps?

[chanceyy]

Hi guys .

katman you are way out of line, as you can see others are disgusted with your attitude .. at this time its not about you its about Patrick & his family who are grieving

Give it a rest katman & for once show some common decency & respect

[Str8 Jacket]

There's a seperate RIP thread that I haven't even set foot in. Like I said, the response today in the 'Accident' thread was some of the most positive I've read in the four years I've frequented this site.

Nor have I. I did not know the guy but I respect that family and other KB members are feeling very upset at present and I wish to respect their feelings. There is a lesson to be learnt from EVERY accident. Timing is everything for people to respect that lesson. Shut up and keep your opinions to yourself it only happened a day or to ago. Put yourself in someone elses shoes for once. Please.

[Katman]

No, they won't. The truth is too uncomfortable ever to be acknowledged here.

The site's ethos guarantees that such deaths will continue.

No pint getting worked up about it though. Its just the way it is. Binning's cool, and when it isn't we'll pretend it never happened.

Thank fuck I'm not the only one with a realistic head on my shoulders.

[Big Dave]

Ix - you know what is happening in litigation world at the moment.

If I was the private owner of this privately owned web site I would also take every step possible to minimize the risks of a slander case.

If you want to have something protected by the 'veil of incorporation' then we need to do the BRONZ site as we have discussed.

At the moment you are raising the Socialist flag on Wall Street.

[PrincessBandit]

I'm with the insensitive loudmouthed Aussie on this one.

On the whole, if there are people arranging a funeral who find it upsetting for us to have that conversation in public, I'm prepared to leave it for a while.

Is it possible that the thread might be reinstated after a suitable period of respect? I agree that it must be devastating for his family and that sensitivity and honouring of their wishes be followed, but will there be future discussion on this site regarding this tragedy and any lessons to be learned?
I have no idea how well known Pat was to the wider biking community but some people will deal with their grief/incomprehension/bewilderment/frustration by debating in this type of forum.

[R6_kid]

Is it just me or does Katman's attitude seriously resemeble that of Sue Bradford?

[PrincessBandit]

I do agree with the above post but sure a few days(or whatever) for the grieving family should be given :yes:

Would be good to see the thread brought back minus any "insensitive" posts as it was,IMO one of the more constructive threads on KB I've seen in some time.

Ah, ya beat me to it DMNTD

[Nagash]

We'll have to get a new option set up when you register you're account, like the organ donar option on your driver's license.

If in the event of my death while riding you have permission to discuss it in any way you want - YES/NO

[jrandom]

The site's ethos guarantees that such deaths will continue.

Well... not really.

I'd say that human nature guarantees that such deaths will continue.

If one wants to make a difference, one will have to somehow change the attitude and dynamic out on the roads, on the group rides and when the young fullas are riding alone.

I suspect that imposing an ACC-advertisement-style visibility of the nature and consequences and nature of roadriding fuckups here on the forums would not really help anything much. It's not as though this isn't discussed, and, frankly, anyone who's still stupid enough to go out and ride like a cock after the last few years of events on KB is still going to be in danger of killing themselves regardless of the subjects that we air here.

And there remains the fact that the family of the dead man would like certain discussions to be kept private for the time being. Given the immediacy of their grief, I'm happy to consider that an overriding priority for the moment.

[MSTRS]

I do agree with the above post but sure a few days(or whatever) for the grieving family should be given :yes:

Would be good to see the thread brought back minus any "insensitive" posts as it was,IMO one of the more constructive threads on KB I've seen in some time.

FWIW, I agree, but that is not the way on KB. Remember "A time to reflect"? That was so full of learning opportunities but was pulled off the main forum with promises to re- instate it at a more appropriate time, but over a year later it remains inaccessible to the masses.
I can understand the angst that a family goes through at a time like this and if a "dissection" thread contains innuendo or untruths, then fair enough, it should be pulled.
We desperately need the opportunity to discuss such events, as long as the thread contains the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

[Ixion]

Ix - you know what is happening in litigation world at the moment.

If I was the private owner of this privately owned web site I would also take every step possible to minimize the risks of a slander case.

If you want to have something protected by the 'veil of incorporation' then we need to do the BRONZ site as we have discussed.

At the moment you are raising the Socialist flag on Wall Street.

You can't libel a dead person. Legal oddity (it'd be libel, slander is verbal)

The people who the message needs to reach won't belong to BRONZ.

[Big Dave]

We desperately need the opportunity to discuss such events, as long as the thread contains the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

And how likely is that when nobody even uses their real name?
That is what meatspace and a bar are for.

[Katman]

Given the immediacy of their grief, I'm happy to consider that an overriding priority for the moment.

Why? What better time to discuss something of such huge magnitude. Motorcyclists die every week - a lot of them through their own lack of personal responsibility. Do we throw a blanket over the entire site everytime time someone dies on their motorcycle simply because it makes us feel better?

Time for a wake up call.

[jrandom]

We desperately need the opportunity to discuss such events, as long as the thread contains the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

:yes:

This is correct.

In cases such as this, the precise nature of the events needs to be carefully established. I'm sure that the gentlemen from the SCU will be collecting data and interviewing all relevant individuals in due course, at which point their findings in relation to Pat's fatal crash will be released.

Until that point, it's appropriate for us to remain silent on the subject. I think that, on the whole, keeping the discussion that was held earlier today from public view for the time being is the only sensible course open to the moderators.

[Trudes]

We'll have to get a new option set up when you register you're account, like the organ donar option on your driver's license.

If in the event of my death while riding you have permission to discuss it in any way you want - YES/NO


We desperately need the opportunity to discuss such events, as long as the thread contains the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

That's all I have to say about that...... and please people just spare a thought for friends and family of someone who may or may not have made a mistake and paid for it in the most expensive way.

[Ixion]

Is it possible that the thread might be reinstated after a suitable period of respect?



Nope. Won't happen. Never does. This isn't the first time, won't be the last.



I agree that it must be devastating for his family and that sensitivity and honouring of their wishes be followed, but will there be future discussion on this site regarding this tragedy and any lessons to be learned?
I have no idea how well known Pat was to the wider biking community but some people will deal with their grief/incomprehension/bewilderment/frustration by debating in this type of forum.

Nope. You're in the wrong place. Once the shock of "shit, that could have been me" has worn off, people will settle back into the comfortable certainty that it never will be them. So, what's to discuss. Bins are cool, they're inevitable, and insurance just buys you a new bike. Hey, and chicks dig scars don't they.

[Ixion]

:yes:

This is correct.

In cases such as this, the precise nature of the events needs to be carefully established. I'm sure that the gentlemen from the SCU will be collecting data and interviewing all relevant individuals in due course, at which point their findings in relation to Pat's fatal crash will be released.

Until that point, it's appropriate for us to remain silent on the subject. I think that, on the whole, keeping the discussion that was held earlier today from public view for the time being is the only sensible course open to the moderators.

No, they're not. Where are the SCU reports on the bikes versus cop car crash ?

[Big Dave]

You can't libel a dead person. Legal oddity (it'd be libel, slander is verbal)

The people who the message needs to reach won't belong to BRONZ.

I stand corrected.

We could ask for a link from here maybe?

Imagine if we could get ACC or someone to host a forum.
Wouldn't that give the govt some 'feedback'!

[yungatart]

And how likely is that when nobody even uses their real name?
That is what meatspace and a bar are for.

The range of ages/experiences/backgrounds makes for realistic debate/discussion on this forum. Meatspace/bar are all very well but tend to be similar ages and outlooks, so the variety of viewpoints is not great enough nor does it reach any where near the numbers that this place does.

[Katman]

In the event of my demise through a motorcycle accident I would expect everyone to dissect that accident and learn from it whatever they can. To my family (PrincessBandit), you better be prepared to sit back and read some grief. The only positive that I could take out of my own demise through a motorcycle accident is the fact that others may learn valuable lessons via it.

[Ixion]

In fact, the specific particulars of the accident that precipitates the thread actually play very little part in such threads.

They are not about the particular crash. That is just the shock event that temporarily forces people out of their complacency of invulnerability and forces them, for a short time, to face the fact the they too could end up dead.

Examination of such threads (you can't of course, because they are all deleted) would show that almost all the discussion is of a general nature. Concerned with principles and attitudes not with the unfortunate deceased at all.

Which is also why the "we have to wait until we know every tiny detail of the crash" is also irrelevant. But it's *such* a good cop out though.

[Jantar]

In the event of my demise through a motorcycle accident I would expect everyone to dissect that accident and learn from it whatever they can. ....

I'm with Katman on this part. I would hope that if I ever come to serious grief on a motorcycle that it will be discussed, disected, analysed to the fullest extent. If such an analysis can help prevent someone else from a similar demise, then it is well worth it. As for family, stromfrau supports this view fully.

[Kickaha]

Always happens. By no means the first time.

The site ethos is resolutely opposed to anything that reminds people that crashing can kill you.


Non Gradus Anus Rodentum!, time and place thats what it's about



and causes lots of people to demand that the offending thread be closed down. They "don't want to have to see that sort of stuff".

So is that really what happened? or are you just pulling shit out or your arse like you normally do


None so blind as they who will not see.

That saying would also apply to your bitching and moaning about "the heaven born" are you as bitter and twisted in real life old man as you come across on here?




If the family asked it be removed, how about we respect that? This tradgedy only occured a couple of days ago.

cocks like Ixion don't seem to know the meaning of respect

[Big Dave]

The range of ages/experiences/backgrounds makes for realistic debate/discussion on this forum. Meatspace/bar are all very well but tend to be similar ages and outlooks, so the variety of viewpoints is not great enough nor does it reach any where near the numbers that this place does.

sure - not the point - expecting the 'whole truth' is unrealistic in an opinion forum populated by psudonyms.

[Katman]

cocks like Ixion don't seem to know the meaning of respect

Ok Kickaha, you teach us respect. Should there be more respect placed on an Individual that "reportedly" contributed to his own demise or should we direct that respect to members who stand up and say "Yes, I've ridden like an arse in the past, but intend to change that"?

[Ixion]

Non Gradus Anus Rodentum!, time and place thats what it's about
So is that really what happened? or are you just pulling shit out or your arse like you normally do
That saying would also apply to your bitching and moaning about "the heaven born" are you as bitter and twisted in real life old man as you come across on here?
cocks like Ixion don't seem to know the meaning of respect
No, I have no respect for Death. I've known him too long and too intimately. My respect's for the living. And you know full well that the 'respect' argument is just a cop out - as is the 'time and place'. There is never a 'time and place', the site rule is actually that noone must ever force people to face the fact that if we stuff up, we die. Ostrich, head, sand.

Have you ever considered that if such discussions had been permitted in the past this thread might not exist. And the head in the sand rule makes it decidely more likely that there will be many more.

[Grahameeboy]

Thank fuck I'm not the only one with a realistic head on my shoulders.

..or great fools think alike...........

[Grahameeboy]

Ok Kickaha, you teach us respect. Should there be more respect placed on an Individual that "reportedly" contributed to his own demise or should we direct that respect to members who stand up and say "Yes, I've ridden like an arse in the past, but intend to change that"?

Someone has died..........reason is meaningless.

Bikers know the risks of being an arse etcand Oarbreaka's tragedy is a simple reminder that biking is a risk...that's all, no need for debate

[Grahameeboy]

No, I have no respect for Death. I've known him too long and too intimately. My respect's for the living. And you know full well that the 'respect' argument is just a cop out - as is the 'time and place'. There is never a 'time and place', the site rule is actually that noone must ever force people to face the fact that if we stuff up, we die. Ostrich, head, sand.

Have you ever considered that if such discussions had been permitted in the past this thread might not exist. And the head in the sand rule makes it decidely more likely that there will be many more.

Mmmm....what is all this crap about Ostrich head in the sand....total and utter....and more utter bollocks.

[Nagash]

Someone has died..........reason is meaningless.

Bikers know the risks of being an arse etcand Oarbreaka's tragedy is a simple reminder that biking is a risk...that's all, no need for debate

See I really want to give my opinion on what you have just said there but it's against the rules to talk about the incident until later.

But i'll bring it up after the funeral if people are still even interested..

[Grahameeboy]

See I really want to give my opinion on what you have just said there but it's against the rules to talk about the incident until later.

But i'll bring it up after the funeral if people are still even interested..

Oh that is boring Sir....................

[Katman]

Mmmm....what is all this crap about Ostrich head in the sand....total and utter....and more utter bollocks.

You truely can't see it??????????

Fuck respect. Smack people between the eyes with a wake up call.

[Grahameeboy]

You truely can't see it??????????

Fuck respect. Smack people between the eyes with a wake up call.

Cannot see what there is not to see Mr K.

[Nagash]

Oh that is boring Sir....................

But mate, that's what this entire thread is about. Not being allowed to talk about the accident, i'm not gonna go against 5 pages of people's opinion's.

I'm only new here, don't wanna make enemies before I make friends.

[Katman]

I'm only new here, don't wanna make enemies before I make friends.

Fuck that. Enemies are fun.

[Grahameeboy]

But mate, that's what this entire thread is about. Not being allowed to talk about the accident, i'm not gonna go against 5 pages of people's opinion's.

I'm only new here, don't wanna make enemies before I make friends.

Well it would liven things up......but to be honest I really don't think there is a huge lot of point debating this accident because ultimately, it will end up slagging off what the deceased did or did not do and at the end of the day biking ain't rocked science...........

[Virago]

You truely can't see it??????????

Fuck respect. Smack people between the eyes with a wake up call.

Perhaps you could go and preach your wake up call at the funeral. I think I know who would get the smack between the eyes...

[Grahameeboy]

Fuck that. Enemies are fun.

Only if they play with you?:spanking:

[Nagash]

I'm not too sure if you saw the thread before it got deleted but it was actually some pretty good and informative stuff.

And sorry Kat, but after looking around a bit I think you'd be the expert of the site on not making friends so i'll stick to my owns means for now :laugh:

[Grahameeboy]

Perhaps you could go and preach your wake up call at the funeral. I think I know who would get the smack between the eyes...

Atakmn..........(anagram of Katman)

[idb]

It's a toughie alright.

In such a large forum, no matter what you opine on, someone is always going to be affronted.
If we all worried about upsetting someone every time we made a comment then the discourse would be very thin indeed.
In fact, there is always a character type that looks for a reason to be insulted or upset.

On the other hand I can only imagine the pain felt by those who have lost a close family member and are then confronted with negative opinions of their loved one's conduct leading up to his demise, especially when they are based on inaccurate or unknown suppositions or information.

I suggest that it should be down to the individual's own conscience and values to decide.

If you don't agree with Katman or Ixion then can I also suggest that you discuss it with them by PM, otherwise you are assisting in perpetuating the thread?
If you are confident in your stance then there is no reason that the discussion has to be in public.

[ital916]

I think we should just let the family and friends grieve for their loss at the moment, leave it for a week, then get a post running about safe riding with positive inputs, where people can discuss their opinions in a reasonable manner without throwing "fuckwit" around too much. And all the people who hate katman, and the people who katman loves to wind up can slug it out in a discussion forum. For now though the time is to grieve. If it has been removed, there will be a reason. Again my condolences.

[dipshit]

I think we should just let the family and friends grieve for their loss at the moment, leave it for a week, then get a post running about safe riding with positive inputs

Except next week there will probably be someone else dead and the same "not the right time" crap will apply... and so on and so on.

[madbikeboy]

You can't libel a dead person. Legal oddity (it'd be libel, slander is verbal)

The people who the message needs to reach won't belong to BRONZ.

Wordsworth - "publish and be damned". Old English common law - if you write something, it has to be true, if it's not, and it's unfounded, then the person accused has a chance to sue for damages (I think you can sue under a family name as well, but it's not my area, and it was a long time ago that I studied law). The total defence is, well, truth. If what you were saying was true, then there is no case.

Also, you have the ability to write honest opinion - if you wrote something off the back of an event that's you opinion and stated it was such, then that can be a defense.

[imdying]

Both sides appear to have some good points.

I have no idea what we'll do at nzsbf in a case like this. I expect I'll have to put it to the floor, come to consensus with the group, and then we'll pretty much stick to that.

As far as libel or whatever goes, I think you'd have a hard time prosecuting someone who thought that what they were saying was based on fact, but IANAL.

Katman and/or Ixion, have you perhaps considered a blog? I believe this site offers that as a feature? You could perhaps link to it in your sig?

I don't believe it's a KB thing, it seems more like a motorcyclist thing, perhaps even a young males on a sportsbike thing.

One small suggestion I might make is to place threads like that into the biker survival sub forum, which is ultimately where they belong. On the one hand, they'll miss a bit of traffic which is admittedly a little self defeatist if the aim is to spread the word about us essentially killing ourselves, but on the other, the families are less likely to trawl that far through the site without being pointed in that direction. Both sides will lose a little, but both sides will gain a little.

I've nothing useful to add to the topic in this thread that would make me anything other than a hypocrite, but I still feel it's worth saying 'The 2 second rules isn't a bad thing to keep in mind, and even the police will tell you to take it out into the countryside'. Time and a place doesn't just relate to this thread.

[eliot-ness]

A lot of the comments posted on the original thread were based on the comment in Speedies post, "a bike travelling at 110 kmh on Marua road". So far I've seen nothing to back up that figure. Was he being followed by a cop? Was he caught on a speed camera? Guesswork of a pedestrian perhaps? Maybe that "fact" should have been left out of the post until there is an official report into the accident.
As to whether the thread should have been deleted. The site rules remind me somewhat of the seatbelt case in the USA, early 60s. Volvo, the inventors of the safety belt, allowed free access to the manufacturing rights when they realised how many lives could be saved. Only one US manufacturer, Ford, took them up on the offer. Ford were immediately threatened with blacklisting by a federation of dealers and manufacturers because, in their words, "the fitting of safety belts will give the impression that motor cars are dangerous".
I wonder how many lives were lost before those ostriches saw sense.
In my opinioin all the "facts" of an accident should be discussed openly. Supposition and guesswork have no value and can only show disrespect for the rider involved.

[MSTRS]

See I really want to give my opinion on what you have just said there but it's against the rules to talk about the incident until later.

But i'll bring it up after the funeral if people are still even interested..

The point is - after the funeral (whatever) people have moved on and any discussion is more likely to be futile.
Respect for the bereaved is fine, but even the general terms discussion of realities are canned in these cases. Ixion etc are right in their comments about
'heads in the sand'.

[Hitcher]

Maybe the Heaven Born should make dying against the rulez. Then we could all live for ever.

Nonsense. If members could keep a such a thread on topic, rather than slagging off each other's abilities or opinions, or speaking ill of the dead, etc, then it would stand some chance of success. There have been several attempts at such threads over the years. Initially "cherry-picking" Moderation can keep them alive and on topic, but they generally quickly degenerate into senseless discussion and abuse.

If members struggle to maintain sensible and reasoned debate on "emotional" matters, then that is hardly the Moderators' problem.

[yungatart]

Part of me thinks that those who are mature enough to come to the realisation that "shit, that could be me", will moderate their riding anyway, based purely on the demise of a fellow KBer. They will not need any facts or details to do this.
Those who cannot come to that point without the facts and details probably will continue to ride as if they are 10 ft tall and bullet proof, even if all the facts and details are available to them.
Maybe these threads only preach to the converted any way.

my 2c

[dangerous]

Nonsense. If members could keep a such a thread on topic, rather than slagging off each other's abilities or opinions

Its not a perfect world Hitch, and no mods ever going to make it one. show me a forum thats all flowers and fluffy... no such thing, my posts that were removed due to off topic was me trying to keep a little humour in a sad thread, man thers nothing worse than a thread full of goths... ya know you post above would be considered off topic my some around here, but thats a net for ya, threads will never stick to topic... never.:apint:

[ManDownUnder]

If the family asked it be removed, how about we respect that? This tradgedy only occured a couple of days ago.

Few words - so much truth.

[EnzoYug]

kiwibiker is a forum, and should not be used in place of professional training or experience. Those who are getting upset and angry would do well to remember that one thread - no matter how much effort or thought went into it - is just one among many and it's removal is no great loss in of itself.

A young man is dead. Get some perspective.

Then post.

[quackquack]

I just think that the threads about tis sort of thing are good if constructive but I don't think that it is in the safe area as a tribute thread. The family will see the both threads and that is not desirable if looking at the tribute thread

[MotoGirl]

When you see people who have been "10ft and bulletproof" posting how things must change/they are changing,maybe just maybe some of the others may "click".


What utter bullshit! :sleep: If the shock factor (that is, the continuous stream of carnage on TV and fellow KBers dying left, right and centre) has no effect and doesn't get through to them, I hardly think they're going to change their riding because someone else has "Had an epiphany...".

The fallen riders would also have had an epiphany if they had survived to benefit from the result of their actions.

[imdying]

What utter bullshit! :sleep: If the shock factor has no effect (that is, the continuous stream of carnage on TV and fellow KBers dying left, right and centre) doesn't get through to them, I hardly think they're going to change their riding because someone else has "Had an epiphany...".But if only one life is saved, isn't that enough? I wouldn't go out on a limb and say that it'd never happen.

[madbikeboy]

Shit - how did this get here??? I still had a page open from that other link. I wanted to post this to make the point that most of what I was reading was debate (and general agreement) that there was an issue with our culture within this site.

I think we need free speech and open debate on the topic of safetey and attitude - I don't even want to get into the discussion about the young guy who died, I think it's a terrible thing, and I make no comment on his riding, the circumstance, where (if any) fault lies. I really feel for his family - and I'm a position to understand having little if any family still alive.

It's well documented that if a group fails to moderate itself, then the wider society intervenes and creates rules, laws, penalties. We have a unique chance to change our culture and how we behave. I'm not advocating we all ride cruisers. But, there were a lot of people agreeing with what I wrote, and I've had several PM's from people who say that they won't ride on organised KB rides for the same reasons that I relate below.

I'm aware that posting this is likely to earn me censure, or banning - and I accept that the moderators pulled the discussion for what I believe are the right reasons. But, and it's a big but, we need the discussion of safety and attitude out in the open.

__________________________________________________ ______________________________________



Today, 14:03
madbikeboy
Scooter boy

Bike: GSXR1000K2
Location: North Shore
Posts: 54


Quote:
Originally Posted by DMNTD
You'll be happy to know mate that this (and a couple of other recent events) has woken me right up.
To the track for this honky and backing off road riding by a good 90%.
I've been fortunate enough to have been LUCKY to have survived thus far
Sick of reading this shit...farking waste.



Yeah, me too. I'm looking for a GSXR6 or 750 for a track bike - went for a ride with ZXRIDER yesterday out past Miranda. Loads of traffic, heaps of bikes (and cruisers, maybe I'm a bit dull, but I don't get the point). But also loads of time to reflect on road versus track riding.


I've been reflecting on this post for the past few minutes, and fuck it, I'm about to start a fistfight. I spent a lot of time avoiding KB, even though now I'm enjoying the sense of community. For the record, I like this site, and I like a lot of people on here. But...

The but is this - I've ridden with a KB organised ride once, that was the thursday night ride from the Shell servo in the top of the northwestern. There were some fast boys, some normal people, and then the rest. 3 or 4 people lost their licences that evening, I watched a dick on a CBR 250/400 trying to keep up run off the road into the gravel (ended up riding in front of him showing him lines, and controlling his speed to ensure no replay later). One person rode their scoot into a fence, I found this out from an asshole cop who said it with barely concealed glee as he wrote out tickets (not to me for the record).

Now, I'm the last person to ever stand in front of you all in innocence. I ride over the speed limit (and I have my first speed camera ticket ever to prove it). I ride harder than I should. But, and here is the difference I think - I'm old enough to ride with a limit that provides a safety margin. I don't ride if I'm tired, I don't ride when I'm angry, and I don't even walk near the gixxer if I've been fucked up or drunk the night before. I treat my 1000cc bike with respect, we happily co-exist. If I abuse her, I die, it's that simple.

On the track, I ride progressively faster during the day, and yes, some would call me a pussy for not riding at 110% the whole time. On the road, I avoid riding with people who are markedly faster and push me too far beyond what I know my limits are, or those who ride aggressively or dangerously. This is the bit that will start the fist-fight - I also never ride on KB organised road rides following that Thursday night ride. I hear stories of bikes flung down the road on their sides on the coro loop. On KB rides, someone always hits the deck.

Now, understand that I'm not Katman, I don't wear panty liners, and you'll never get me riding a crusier - but it seems to me that there's a cultural issue here.

Ride within YOUR limits. Don't get your intentions and abilities mixed up. Ride with a safety margin. Pay attention to where you speed; I don't give a rats arse about getting a speeding ticket, but I'm damned careful not to end up in the shrubbery. I grew up on bikes being reminded that I had no right to ride through a corner faster than I could see what was on the other side.

Now I'm hiding under my desk for all the angry retorts...
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#34 Today, 14:05
Oakie
Hitcher's spellchecker

Bike: A black 1992 CB400 Super Four (NC31)
Location: Christchurch
Posts: 1,005


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorja
It would be rather nice if 99% of the New Zealand road rules could be removed and one simple rule applied.
Use Common Sense.

Trouble is that common sense doesn't seem to be that common.
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#35 Today, 14:11
mstriumph
eschew obsification...

Bike: 2005 FZS1000 "Tasha"
Location: out back in the OutBack
Posts: 1,244



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ixion
There are areas in Auckland (probably not in other places I realise) where 110 in a 50 would not be unduly dangerous. At certain times.

.............

and, in a more general sense, there are times on MOST roads where even DOING the posted limit would be dangerous

it's a two-edged sword - and you have to use your judgement ..........

irrespective, like many of the posters on this thread i tend to go by the rules in town ....... and, IMHO can't think of circumstances where doing more than twice the posted limit in a builtup area would be 'ok'......
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Grass wedges its way between the closest blocks of marble and it brings them down. This power of feeble life which can creep in anywhere is greater than that of the mighty behind their cannons....... - Honore de Balzac



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#36 Today, 14:16
jrandom
arbeit macht frei

Bike: Betty and the Snail
Location: Niflheim
Posts: 4,970


Quote:
Originally Posted by madbikeboy
Now I'm hiding under my desk for all the angry retorts...

Nonsense, sir. You know as well as the rest of us that that was a perfectly sensible and well-considered post.

You're not the only one on this forum who eschews group rides.

I, personally, only enjoy riding with people I know and trust. I dislike the publicly-advertised free-for-alls.

(Excepting the ATNR, which is really just an excuse to go to the pub.)
__________________
kiwibiker is full of love, an disrespect.
- mikey

what a bunch of winging homos you people are
- Craig Shirriffs

[MSTRS]

What utter bullshit! :sleep: If the shock factor (that is, the continuous stream of carnage on TV and fellow KBers dying left, right and centre) has no effect and doesn't get through to them, I hardly think they're going to change their riding because someone else has "Had an epiphany...".

The fallen riders would also have had an epiphany if they had survived to benefit from the result of their actions.

Can't agree with that. When members here that are highly respected 'cos they're well known for having 'been there, done that' start talking sensible riding tactics, the great unwashed sit up and take note.
When Katman spouts, he is flamed (because he didn't do anything to earn respect first), but when DMNTD spouts, it's a very different reponse.

[MotoGirl]

But if only one life is saved, isn't that enough? I wouldn't go out on a limb and say that it'd never happen.

I'm not suggesting that any action to help people become safer riders is a bad thing. When someone's thinking about what they should not do on a bike, I think the actions of a dead rider have more credibility than those of someone who's survived an accident. :shutup:

[PrincessBandit]

...ultimately, it will end up slagging off what the deceased did or did not do .....

Having been reading through this thread (unfortunately with the original "cause and effect" one gone that is no longer around to check) the slagging match seems to be very much between certain factions of kb mentality against each other not about the deceased or their actions. At the end of the day everyone will have their own opinion about the actions of any rider who is no longer with us, ranging from grief through to "i don't really care as long as it's not me".
Reading through the link re site rules I don't think it was worded very clearly as to what is or isn't considered appropriate (sorry Joni, maybe you need to just clarify some of those points). I'm no idiot with reading but even I couldn't really work out what some of it meant. Maybe this might help clear up for others what they can and can't post at times like this.
Also nice to see someone attempting to make a helpful suggestion (blogging) regarding this particular situation. Don't know how effective it would really be given the nature of forums but at least it was constructive not just more of :shutup::spanking::shutup::mad::spanking: which seems to be going on.

[imdying]

When someone's thinking about what they should not do on a bike, I think the actions of a dead rider have more credibility than those of someone who's survived an accident. :shutup:Yes, there are people that will think like that :yes: I do however also believe that there are people who will absorb what is written by those that they respect, and take the advice (overt or otherwise) on board :scooter:

[avrflr]

I can't imagine spending my day reading KB if a member of my family died. It's not like there's a KB screen on the wall of the lounge that can't be turned off. Avoiding the issue of why people die serves no one. Discussion is good, censorship is bad.

[MotoGirl]

Words of great wisdom MG :laugh:
Interesting that the comments,PM's and emails I received from 26 other riders with similar mindsets,coming from similar riding backgrounds as myself suggest otherwise!! :niceone:
It's all right,one day you may understand and hopefully sooner than later. :msn-wink:

I don't need to "understand" because I don't deliberately set out to become roadkill; therefore, why do I need to change my riding habits?
IMO being "wise" is being upright and alive. :Pokey:

[MSTRS]

I don't need to "understand" because I don't deliberately set out to become roadkill; therefore, why do I need to change my riding habits?
IMO being "wise" is being upright and alive. :Pokey:

So, for you, these threads are unecessary...fair enough. The understanding should be of the mindset of others, who may not be so restrained as you, yet have respect for the ex-unrestrained members here. The world does not exist through rose-tinted specs, no matter how much you would like it to be.

[imdying]

I don't need to "understand" because I don't deliberately set out to become roadkill; therefore, why do I need to change my riding habits?
IMO being "wise" is being upright and alive. :Pokey:Read post 98 again... it's sometimes not about what a post can do for you, but what it might do for someone else, or in other words, even though you might feel that it doesn't apply to you, others might not see it the same way. Not everyone is wired up the same way as yourself, or myself, or any other self for that matter! :banana:

/edit: Oh I forgot to add; I'm not sure that being 'wise' is being upright and alive, being upright and alive seems more like a by product of being 'wise' (or maybe just lucky)... and what is this 'wise' anyway? :D

[DMNTD]

I don't need to "understand" because I don't deliberately set out to become roadkill; therefore, why do I need to change my riding habits?
IMO being "wise" is being upright and alive. :Pokey:

Jebus...recommend you set out to understand everything about motorcycling so you don't become roadkill...as you put it.
Been riding all sorts for a long time now and still have so much more to "understand",as does every motorcyclist.
Anyway...who sets out to deliberately become an accident victim?

"IMO being "wise" is being upright and alive."....indeed it is,indeed it is. Then surely learning as much as possible from those that know better would be beneficial? Learning from others' mistakes too is cheaper and far less painful experience.

[Ixion]

I don't need to "understand" because I don't deliberately set out to become roadkill; therefore, why do I need to change my riding habits?
IMO being "wise" is being upright and alive.
Reply With Quote


Nobody deliberately sets out to become roadkill. (Well, maybe a few do, but that's a very special case).

And maybe you don't need to change your riding habits. Only you can decide that.

But , be aware that you only need to make one mistake, which may not even be your own fault, and you're going to die. Every time you (or any of us) start the bike, Death climbs on the pillion seat (No, not you Mr Death_inc. The skinny fellow).

Motorcycling is, for a lot of people , especially the younger ones, very concerned with peer emulation and peer approval.

An old Nanna like me telling people to slow down, be careful, ride defensively, doesn't carry much weight with the folk that need to hear the message. The unspoken response is "Yeah yeah, he's an old nanna , can't ride fast anyway so he wants everyone to slow down to his speed. Doesn't apply to me"

When someone like DMNTD says those things, it does carry weight. "Shit,he's real fast. If HE thinks that <insert unsafe practice> isn't on, maybe I should stop doing it/ slow down etc ".

So even if you don't need to change their riding habits , there are those who do. If that were not so, there wouldn't be any of the RIP threads. So is it responsible for you to say "I don't need to change, so noone should be allowed to encourage those who DO need to change to do so" ?

[nodrog]

.... Learning from others' mistakes too is cheaper and far less painful experience.

and somtimes quite amusing :bleh:

[MotoGirl]

Anyway...who sets out to deliberately become an accident victim?

Obviously the guys who're incapable of restraining themselves on the road. If they didn't think they were going to kill themselves why do they need the epiphany?

[MSTRS]

But , be aware that you only need to make one mistake, which may not even be your own fault, and you're going to die. Every time you (or any of us) start the bike, Death climbs on the pillion seat (No, not you Mr Death_inc. The skinny fellow).


Riding sensibly and with due care and attention, is most of the answer...the rest is made up of luck. However, no-one can be perfect all the time (one slip may be all it takes), and there is always the completely unexpected to trip one up. Such as the road collapsing at the exact point in time you are on it. Or a plane falling out of the sky and landing on you (from behind). Or or or....
Just because 'you' have always done it, there is no guarantee that will remain the case. Bruce and Daryl, anyone? And yes, it still hurts. Many bikers altered their riding habits as a result of that event, but many have not. And then there are those who are unaware of that incident, and who may benefit from the lessons others learned.

[DMNTD]

Obviously the guys who're incapable of restraining themselves on the road. If they didn't think they were going to kill themselves why do they need the epiphany?

Everyone is capable,some just don't realise it yet. :niceone:

BTW...it's not just about the people that ride fast,it's about all motorcyclists as we can all improve our current skill levels in all facets or motorcycling...take heed as you're included in that group too.
Being argumentative for the sake of it isn't going to help now is it? :rolleyes:

[nodrog]

... If they didn't think they were going to kill themselves why do they need the epiphany?

this whole sentence is a contradiction!

[imdying]

Obviously the guys who're incapable of restraining themselves on the road. If they didn't think they were going to kill themselves why do they need the epiphany?I'm not sure it's fair to condemn people forever based on their present behaviour patterns... I mean, if that were the case, an epiphany wouldn't exist as a concept anyway.

[imdying]

[B]Everyone is capable,some just don't realise it yet. :niceone:Exactly... that's why it's an epiphany... :msn-wink:

[madandy]

Being upright and alive is a temporary state.
I reckon wisdom is knowing why you're upright and alive and how to imrove your odds of remaining upright and alive.

[MotoGirl]

When someone like DMNTD says those things, it does carry weight. "Shit,he's real fast. If HE thinks that <insert unsafe practice> isn't on, maybe I should stop doing it/ slow down etc ".

I get what you're saying but it's only effective if that person practices what he/she preaches. If someone says "oooh, don't go fast" and they crash from excessive speed (hypothetical, not aimed at DMNTD), is anyone going to listen to that person?



So is it responsible for you to say "I don't need to change, so noone should be allowed to encourage those who DO need to change to do so" ?

If I recall correctly I said I had no problem with people trying to help others survive. I believe the actions of a dead man have more weight than those of a live man.

[MSTRS]

If I recall correctly I said I had no problem with people trying to help others survive. I believe the actions of a dead man have more weight than those of a live man.

Not so. It takes a live man to speak about the dead man's actions...

[imdying]

I get what you're saying but it's only effective if that person practices what he/she preaches. If someone says "oooh, don't go fast" and they crash from excessive speed (hypothetical, not aimed at DMNTD), is anyone going to listen to that person?To your mind, yes, however, I suspect that the inner workings of a male spotty youth on a sprotsbike might make your mind boggle though :crazy: Everyone isn't wired up the same :no:

[MotoGirl]

Not so. It takes a live man to speak about the dead man's actions...

Not necessarily. Sometimes the dead man's actions are obvious just from seeing it.

Riding past an accident scene where a biker lays face down on the road while the spectators help the car driver who killed him is humbling enough. I don't then need someone to tell me to slow down because it's obvious what could happen to me if I don't ride defensively.

[MSTRS]

Not necessarily. Sometimes the dead man's actions are obvious just from seeing it.

Riding past an accident scene where a biker lays face down on the road while the spectators help the car driver who killed him is humbling enough. I don't then need someone to tell me to slow down because it's obvious what could happen to me if I don't ride defensively.

And of course, everyone here is going to be witness firsthand to that sort of thing....
Contrary to belief, fatal accidents are (still) quite rare. Most of us will never see one. And those that do, mostly all they will see is the aftermath. Which does not tell a story to anyone but the SCU, who also do not make their findings easily available to the public.

[MotoGirl]

Yeah but this is not about you MG...some others DO want to talk about it,learn from it,find out the causes of why it happened so they in turn can learn from such tragic events.

That's precisely my point. I've been saying all along that (I believe) we gain more from dissecting fatalities than we would from hearing that other riders just change their habits for the sake of it.

[imdying]

That's precisely my point. I've been saying all along that (I believe) we gain more from dissecting fatalities than we would from hearing that other riders just change their habits for the sake of it.You are quite right, some will. It's the some part that makes the difference though.

[ital916]

Nobody deliberately sets out to become roadkill. (Well, maybe a few do, but that's a very special case).

And maybe you don't need to change your riding habits. Only you can decide that.

But , be aware that you only need to make one mistake, which may not even be your own fault, and you're going to die. Every time you (or any of us) start the bike, Death climbs on the pillion seat (No, not you Mr Death_inc. The skinny fellow).

Motorcycling is, for a lot of people , especially the younger ones, very concerned with peer emulation and peer approval.

An old Nanna like me telling people to slow down, be careful, ride defensively, doesn't carry much weight with the folk that need to hear the message. The unspoken response is "Yeah yeah, he's an old nanna , can't ride fast anyway so he wants everyone to slow down to his speed. Doesn't apply to me"

When someone like DMNTD says those things, it does carry weight. "Shit,he's real fast. If HE thinks that <insert unsafe practice> isn't on, maybe I should stop doing it/ slow down etc ".

So even if you don't need to change their riding habits , there are those who do. If that were not so, there wouldn't be any of the RIP threads. So is it responsible for you to say "I don't need to change, so noone should be allowed to encourage those who DO need to change to do so" ?

Haha don't worry ixion, i'm listening and yes when told to ride slow and be careful i do, but then i ride like a nana anyway for i intend to live a long happy motorcycling life. Lets get some other noobs posting up here about their opinions. Mines, ride slow, ride safe, burn rubber on the track, not your face on SH1. lol

[MotoGirl]

OK, so maybe we should discuss the effectiveness of some real life examples. Take these scenarios as a start:
1) Valentino Rossi has decided not to exceed 80kph on the open road.

2) Valentino meets a Kenworth mincing machine because he didn't have enough speed to pass the car towing a caravan before he hit that truck head on. The largest piece of his remains is the size of a cob loaf.

In the first scenario, no one gives a flying fuck, and really, what message does it drive home? Valentino loves a good hoon on the track but he's a pussy on the road?

The second scenario, however, tells me a hoard of useful information. I know from reading it that I should check the coast is clear and only pass if I have sufficient room to do so. In this particular case, dissecting a fatality is more likely to have an impact.

[sunhuntin]

i think rossi would have to be blind to not notice an oncoming vehicle before beginning the passing manouver.

[Ixion]

Actually , I think we agree.

The thought process "I should ride {slower, more carefully, defensively whatever}" is, on it's own , of little value. It is an abstract concept. What is needed to make people take it on board is a tangible appreciation of consequences. " You should ride {etc etc} , because otherwise *this* is what may happen to you" .

But in either case, the discussion is necessary. Because, apart from the few people that will actually encounter, or be part of a fatal accident, it is only the discussion that makes the point about consequences. Without discussion it is just a "yeah yeah, terrible". I read in the paper that a thousand people have been killed in Rwanda. It doesn't really mean much to be, there's no connection with my life.

The over enthusiastic rider, whose skill levels are actually well below his own estimation, reads that a motorcyclist has been killed. "Yeah yeah, terrible. Glad that won't happen to me". It needs other people pointing out that it can happen to *them* to make him think "Shit, if XXX thinks it could happen to him, and he's a really good rider, then maybe it *could* happen to me, too".

And you make a valid point, that riding more safely is not necesarily synonomous with riding slower. SOmetimes faster is safer.

[Jimmy B]

OK I’ll share my philosophy. Firstly I am a road rider and have developed a set of strategies that I ride to in most any given situation. I ride daily and most weekends, probably clock an average of 250Kms per week with the odd longer trip thrown in. I ride a mix of urban and the usual biker weekend routes, I have been riding this way since I was 15. I had a 5 year break in my mid 30’s and I am now 40.

I am not a fast rider but I am an efficient rider, I ride my own pace and get along with those of a similar mindset. I avoid large group rides because they freak me out. If I can’t see it I slow down, I won’t do 120kph around 55’s (though I can) because I don’t know what’s around the corner. I ride a line that gives me the maximum chance of stopping and maximum visibility; I am slow in and steady out. I make my own decisions to overtake and never feel pressured by the guys I ride with to keep up by chancing an iffy manoeuvre; they’ll wait and works both ways. I listen to anyone and every one on all things related to bikes, that which makes sense; I adopt and practice until its second nature. I look after my bike because it’s important that it works as it’s designed to do.

Whoever reads this take what you will from it, it is far from exhaustive. I am convinced that it’s my attitude and not my aptitude kept me from harm. I don’t have the same freqeuncey of near misses or close calls that others seem to do. Long may it continue.

[Tank]

The over enthusiastic rider, whose skill levels are actually well below his own estimation, reads that a motorcyclist has been killed. "Yeah yeah, terrible. Glad that won't happen to me". It needs other people pointing out that it can happen to *them* to make him think "Shit, if XXX thinks it could happen to him, and he's a really good rider, then maybe it *could* happen to me, too".


The sad thing is that the vast majority of people that ride like that STILL wont think that it applies to them.

Look at so many of the other threads on this KB about the speeds and the manner that people ride - not everyone on here is a riding GOD, despite what so many of them think. Have they looked at any of the other "rider down" threads and made a change - Im guessing not. Ive been on rides and seen people on the Thursday evening ride go past - Jesus so many of them were riding like fuck-wits.

So Im of thought that - if they haven't learnt now - they never will. That's why there are so many people on this KB getting killed, and will continue to do so - how many by the end of the year do you think? 15? 20? People who ride like that wont change because of something they read here saying "oh- that could happen to me" - they are more likley to ride faster because of all the SH16 GP threads and the like.


Regardless - this was started because someone took exception to a thread that was removed (as I understand it) at the request of the family of the young man who died.

Anyone who cannot respect for that dosnt deserve respect themselves. This isn't about censorship, its about showing concern for the thoughts of his family.

[FROSTY]

Katman I agree with your and speedies ideals.
I 100% agree that fatal accidents should be looked at to help others (including myself) ride safer
I though do feel that its all about timing.
We have discussed this before many times dude and if you genuinely want people to hear your message which BTW again i believe is a good one you need to alter your aproach a bit so they dont turn their ears off to ya

[Mikkel]

Regardless of what prompted this thread I think it raises a valid point about moderation.

I've frequented quite a lot of forums over the years and I have never seen any forum being moderated in the way that KB is. I'm not saying that it is wrong or that the mods are doing a bad job. But I have never seen anywhere where the following tools are being used so often and so freely:

1) Renaming threads
2) Moving threads
3) Deleting threads

1) Renaming threads is bullshit - What's the next thing going to be? Correcting spelling and grammatical errors, infractions for having the wrong opinion?
People post what they post and it is honestly nobodys business changing what and how they express this. And if it is deemed vital to moderate what members have posted, common decency dictates an "EDIT" note at the end with name, time, date and reason for moderation by the moderator.

2) While I don't mind threads being moved, most other forums have a policy of taking all the posts and moving them to the desired forum while leaving the (now locked) thread in place with a notice of it being moved and a link. The locking and sticky tools are great ways of making threads disappear into oblivion or shoving them right in peoples faces!

3) Deleting threads is quite unacceptable IMHO. It stinks of sweeping stuff under the carpet and I'm pretty sure others have the same opinion. As for the time, place and respect argument - if absolutely necessary to keep something out of the public focus for a while I suggest MOVING the thread to a "members-only" forum a la PD which can only be seen by members who are logged in. As such it would no longer be available to the public and if it still disturbs some people they have had to go out of their way to find it and thus the argument is void.
Also, if a thread is deemed to be getting out of hand - just lock it down and it'll be outta sight in less than a day.

...peace

[Hitcher]

...peace

I think I posted something earlier in this thread about a discussion's ability to stay on topic.

While it is possible to respond to the assertions made in Mikkel's post, this is not the right thread/forum

Maybe I should rename and move it...

[Mikkel]

I think I posted something earlier in this thread about a discussion's ability to stay on topic.

And I'm sure D had a very insightful reply to that post. :yes:


While it is possible to respond to the assertions made in Mikkel's post, this is not the right thread/forum

While it would be possible to respond to any assertion - I'm pretty sure you won't find any in my post. I'm merely stating facts and my personal opinions and I think that either would be hard to argue against.

Consider it an addressation of the issue at the core of this thread and a few humble suggestions as how to moderate "professionally and respectfully". ;)


Maybe I should rename and move it...

...*shrug*...

Edit: I can see that Motogirl's post has disappeared somehow... :crazy:
Is it actually possible for users to delete their own threads?

[Hitcher]

Is it actually possible for users to delete their own threads?

Users can delete posts, but not threads.

[rainman]

The thought process "I should ride {slower, more carefully, defensively whatever}" is, on it's own , of little value. It is an abstract concept. What is needed to make people take it on board is a tangible appreciation of consequences. " You should ride {etc etc} , because otherwise *this* is what may happen to you" .


So true. I ride slowly and defensively for a number of reasons:

my bike is a cruiser not a rocketship
I don't have the necessary skills or self-control to pilot a modern sportsbike at high speed without likely injury
I remember how much it hurts to fall off, even though the last time I did I was half my age
I like being around for my family and they seem to enjoy that too

The most important of these factors is #3, the sensory memory of historical bins. Yes, this is a species of fear, and no, my masculinity and I don't have a problem with being scared of hurting myself.


And you make a valid point, that riding more safely is not necesarily synonomous with riding slower. SOmetimes faster is safer.
Oddly enough I agree. Besides, every day I get on the bike even I ride fast enough to kill myself. It's easier than I think, I think.

And FWIW, should I ever meet my end while riding, I'd welcome a detailed discussion anywhere it might help others learn from the situation.