Tar melt warning

[MSTRS]

If riding in or out of the Hawkes Bay, please take special care. There is tarmelt everywhere and it's not pleasant.
Just heard a truck is stuck on SH5 due to no traction. Imagine the mess that's gonna leave!!!

[Meekey_Mouse]

Yick! :sweatdrop:sick: Thanks for the heads up!!

[crynsie]

how dangerous is this stuff to bikes.

I have always ridden slower over any tarmelt I find...

Does it affect the tyres?

Does it affect traction?

Apologies for the silly question, but I never saw tarmelt is aussie...


TIA

[James Deuce]

how dangerous is this stuff to bikes.

I have always ridden slower over any tarmelt I find...

Does it affect the tyres?

Does it affect traction?

Apologies for the silly question, but I never saw tarmelt is aussie...


TIA
And yet 10C higher average temps are the norm for many parts of Australia compared to the hottest places in NZ. Says something about the Government's commitment to road safety, doesn't it?

Tar melt is little different from diesel in terms of traction for a bike and a decent tar swamp will have you on your ear, soon as look at it.

[cold comfort]

I was told by a friend, who has a mate who worked on the road gang, that they use 2nd grade tar here which is why the damn stuff melts at 20 deg. I cannot confirm the accuracy of this but it would explain a lot. I have just spent some time at the local dealers using degreaser and steam cleaner to get the last lot off!:oi-grr:

[Big Dave]

how dangerous is this stuff to bikes.

I have always ridden slower over any tarmelt I find...

Does it affect the tyres?

Does it affect traction?

Apologies for the silly question, but I never saw tarmelt is aussie...


TIA

It is deadly - literally a big puddle of oil on the road.

Australian roads are hot mix rather than chip seal.

[yungatart]

It is deadly - literally a big puddle of oil on the road.

Australian roads are hot mix rather than chip seal.

Would be nice f they would follow Australia's lead on that here, wouldn't it?
It seems to melt at (comparatively) low temps these days. And it seems to be right across the whole lane, forcing you to ride in it.

[Nagash]

Well i've experianced the terror of diesel on the road before (and binned) so i'll make sure to watch out for this.. cheers :clap:

[jtzzr]

how dangerous is this stuff to bikes.

I have always ridden slower over any tarmelt I find...

Does it affect the tyres?

Does it affect traction?

Apologies for the silly question, but I never saw tarmelt is aussie...


TIA

Also know as road bleed , horrid stuff , treat it with respect , like riding in the rain on bald tyres.

[madmal64]

Be careful over in the Wairarapa too! Twas plenty of this happening out towards Castlepoint on Sunday and Watertower Rd as well.
Watch those corners out that way folks!

[team cudby]

hi we are off to whangaehu on friday on the bike hope it is all ok we come back on saturday i nite no kids

[sAsLEX]

Be careful over in the Wairarapa too! Twas plenty of this happening out towards Castlepoint on Sunday and Watertower Rd as well.
Watch those corners out that way folks!

Around Taupo as well, though saw hardly any around Canterbury which was well hotter than Taupo

[Sully60]

There's no doubt about the lack of traction on hot melting tar.
It's the result of of the tar bleed that worries me.

The flushing caused by melted tar that's not subsequently repaired is the single most dangerous external factor when road riding in wet conditions IMO.

So you guys up there in warmer climes better be careful on that hot wet tar and REAL F&*KEN CAREFUL on the cold wet tar!

[kevfromcoro]

Just rode up the Thames Coast..its everywhere..hot as..
take it easy..
any guys doing the loop this week ...check the temp...
dangerous stuff

[spookytooth]

came through highway 43 on Thursday was alot of melt mid arvo and yep it was slippery

[tri boy]

My lines through corners on these type of conditions totally changes.
I'm solely searching for the more abrasive middle section of the road that the truck tyres barely touch. (more chip on them, so much less bare tar).
If the road is so bad that these areas don't exist, I ride like a wimp, and find a straight hwy.
Definitely not the time for bravado.:mellow:

with regards to Aussie roads, I spent 7 yrs in the Pilbara,(Nth West WA), high temp, huge trucks fully loaded, and the roads were in excellent nick.

Transit should hang their heads in shame.

[C_A]

not so much a trucks problem as much as it is volume of traffic and poor road construction I think.

went on highay between natioanl park and wanganui over new years and experienced worst tar melt I've driven on. car understeered heavily on a corner that i was tkaing extreme caution on. so glad I wasn't on my bike that day....

[tri boy]

Actually the trucks are a major problem. Prior to the temps rising, the sheer weight/side force of the steering tyres literally rip the chip away from the tar, helping to expose it.
the truckies can't help it. they don't use inferior road building techniques/design, neither do they set the front axle weight limits that are out of sync with our goat tracks and tightening radius corners.
Sure, the cars do alot of the wear on the chip, but they certainly don't lift the surfaces into lumpy berms, or force water into the splits anywhere near like a B-train does. Imagine pointing a 3000psi water blaster at a deteriorating road, and thats pretty much what a heavily laden truck tyre on a wet road does.

[yungatart]

Transit should hang their heads in shame.

Shouldn't they just!!! Bastidges...

[trumpy]

Worst damage is usually on the uphill side of the road(left hand side going uphill). If there is a passing lane available use that as it is usually more stable than the left lane (less truck use).
Like sAsLEX says, watch out around Taupo the roads were REALLY bad today.

[yungatart]

Wairoa is really bad too.

[MSTRS]

Worst damage is usually on the uphill side of the road(left hand side going uphill). ...

Really? I would have said that the worst area would be a corner at the bottom of a dip, or any downhill corner on a road facing N to NW.

[trumpy]

Really? I would have said that the worst area would be a corner at the bottom of a dip, or any downhill corner on a road facing N to NW.


My experience on the Napier/Taupo rd in the last two years around this time of the year was that virtually all the the uphill lanes were badly damaged, same applies to uphill sections on Murapara/Awakeri rd (even on quite sheltered sections heading towards the dam...the northern end of Galatea rd can be damn near liquid on uphill left lane). The same applies to the Mangakino/Wharepapa South rd etc, etc.
Vehicles, particularly trucks, apply a lot more pressure to the road surface on the uphill side of the road.
My observations only, may in no way be scientific.

[crynsie]

Thanks for all of the advice here...

Nice to know I was right in being cautious...

Summer...best riding weather...worst roads.....damnit!!!!

[Mike748]

Thanks for all of the advice here...

Nice to know I was right in being cautious...

Summer...best riding weather...worst roads.....damnit!!!!

Leave earlier, worst time is from say 11am till as late as 4pm depending on the weather, north facing and number of overlays on the road.

[SVboy]

Mr Sensible, Ghost Bullet and I rode down Porters Pass a few weeks ago and it was a black river of tar-stress levels were high. The Akaroa GP oops I mean highway is deteriorating too, with high traffic and temps.

[janno]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4357437a11.html

This is scary stuff.

I got my licence in Aus so have only ridden on hotmix in high summer temps. Surely it must cost Transit a fortune to be constantly repairing cruddy tar, rather than the initial higher outlay for hotmix?

[Toaster]

If riding in or out of the Hawkes Bay, please take special care. There is tarmelt everywhere and it's not pleasant.
Just heard a truck is stuck on SH5 due to no traction. Imagine the mess that's gonna leave!!!

Thanks for the reminder mate... yeah this time of year means a heck of a lot more cleaning of the chrome!

I've also noticed some road subsidence and the tar coming up forming hard ridges either side of past truck tracks where the road foundations were poor.... they cool and solidify and turn into one heck of a nasty bump in the road.

[sAsLEX]

Transit should hang their heads in shame.

I fuckin near bent the cage wheel on a manhole cover tonight, had to cart some stuff around, which was sitting around two inches below the steel ring it sits in.

Who is negligent in this case? As if I hit that on a bike it could flick me, and in the least damage the wheel, who do I send the bill to!>?

[James Deuce]

No one, it is entirely your problem and you can get charged with careless as a mate did after doing the exact same thing.

[xwhatsit]

SH22 had a fair bit of tar-bleed on Sunday, but thankfully it was only in the wheel tracks, so if you hit it you would only get pushed out so far. Still very unnerving, and I definitely backed off a lot.

[sAsLEX]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4357437a11.html

This is scary stuff.

I got my licence in Aus so have only ridden on hotmix in high summer temps. Surely it must cost Transit a fortune to be constantly repairing cruddy tar, rather than the initial higher outlay for hotmix?

Of course not. If you look at each financial year in isolation you will see they come in underbudget and receive their performance payouts....... not bonuses mind you, they are different.


No longer do they look long term and spend money now to save it later.

[Monsterbishi]

I was told by a friend, who has a mate who worked on the road gang, that they use 2nd grade tar here which is why the damn stuff melts at 20 deg. I cannot confirm the accuracy of this but it would explain a lot.

That's totally untrue, I work directly with the road gangs, and even the labrats who design the stuff.

I was out yesterday sweeping a couple of roads that we had to spread small chip on during the weekend due to the melt, today should be more fun - I've been out with the labrats this week testing a AC(hotmix) compound that is between 20-30% epoxy, costs six times more per ton to make, but has a useful life of 30+ years!

NZ Roads suffer because of the volcanic chip that most of our roads are built with, it retains the heat much longer than what other countries use, and there is simply no practical alternative with us being a pokey little island in the middle of nowhere.

[skidMark]

There's no doubt about the lack of traction on hot melting tar.
It's the result of of the tar bleed that worries me.

The flushing caused by melted tar that's not subsequently repaired is the single most dangerous external factor when road riding in wet conditions IMO.

So you guys up there in warmer climes better be careful on that hot wet tar and REAL F&*KEN CAREFUL on the cold wet tar!


oh cmon drifting in the pissing wet in fun...

i mean yeah ya hearts in ya throat at the time....it's when you keep power even and the rear goes you worry..... because that usually mean the fron is probably gunna go to....if it hasn't already....

getting rear out under hard power and just going down the road for 100 metre with the arse out sideway on the limiter in 1st doing 20kph....

with a bald rear on a zxr250 lol

on leaving mission bay towards st heliers on that kickass right at 80 kph in 2nd gear doing 10k rpm entering....hitting apex (in the pissing wet) then a handful of gas to full throttle....then the rear kicks out.....and the pedestrian you are drifting at don't keep walking they don't run....they stand and stare, with a stoopid look on thier face with 160kg of bike coming sideways at them....

with 6 foot tall 63.5kg ride (me) going oh fuck if i dnt save this we are all proper fucked.

thats when drifting in wet is not fun...


oh and...never heard of tar melt before....

[tri boy]

NZ Roads suffer because of the volcanic chip that most of our roads are built with, it retains the heat much longer than what other countries use, and there is simply no practical alternative with us being a pokey little island in the middle of nowhere.

I'm sorry sir, but that is a load of bolloks.
Marble Bar, (Pilbara), has 4-5 months of temparatures in excess of 40 celsius DAILY.
The base rocks/sand hold massive amounts of heat.(raw iron ore, nickel etc).
The road Trains carry up to 200 tonne on Federal Plates, and often are rolling at 120kmh+.
These roads need little attention, besides regular patrols to remove blown truck tyres, roo/bullock carcasses removed, and signs replaced by wide loads wiping them out.
Our roads fail every year due to penny pinching, and incompetent govt leadership. I'm positive the engineers here would relish the opportunity to do a quality job, but the Govt doesn't care about long term goals.

[MSTRS]

That's totally untrue, I work directly with the road gangs, and even the labrats who design the stuff.

I was out yesterday sweeping a couple of roads that we had to spread small chip on during the weekend due to the melt, today should be more fun - I've been out with the labrats this week testing a AC(hotmix) compound that is between 20-30% epoxy, costs six times more per ton to make, but has a useful life of 30+ years!

NZ Roads suffer because of the volcanic chip that most of our roads are built with, it retains the heat much longer than what other countries use, and there is simply no practical alternative with us being a pokey little island in the middle of nowhere.

Utter tripe! It is shonky quality tar that is the problem. A system that is designed to be installed at the cheapest rate possible, and damn the repairs because they come from a different (hidden?) budget. I, too, have contacts in the roading industry.

[MSTRS]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4357437a11.html

This is scary stuff.

I got my licence in Aus so have only ridden on hotmix in high summer temps. Surely it must cost Transit a fortune to be constantly repairing cruddy tar, rather than the initial higher outlay for hotmix?

"....Mr Hart said the difficulty some drivers experienced also related to how hot the truck's tyres were – if they had been driving a long time, or at high speeds, the vehicle was at more risk of struggling to get traction on melting bitumen..."
What a load of unmitigated bollocks!!!
A poor attempt to shift blame for Transit's poor quality road. If a truck travels at 90kph for 50kms, it's tyres will be the same temperature as if it travelled 500kms. Tarmelt occurs because the sun/air is hotter than the melting point of the tar used. No vehicles driving on it will make it melt more, only lift the chip and expose the tar itself.

[Blue Velvet]

SH2, Waioeka Gorge (Opotiki to Gisborne) is slippery. Some road works at a couple of places (6 Jan).

SH1 (Desert Road) had loose gravel spread on it in places (11 Jan), be careful if you're riding it in the dark as it wasn't sign posted.

SH30 (Te Kuiti to Whakamaru)
SH32/SH41 (Whakamaru to Tokaanu)
SH47 (Tokaanu to National Park)
SH4 (National Park to Tohunga Junction)
SH54 (Vinegar Hill to Aorangi)

All OK (13 Jan).

$0.02

[madandy]

That's totally untrue, I work directly with the road gangs, and even the labrats who design the stuff.

I was out yesterday sweeping a couple of roads that we had to spread small chip on during the weekend due to the melt, today should be more fun - I've been out with the labrats this week testing a AC(hotmix) compound that is between 20-30% epoxy, costs six times more per ton to make, but has a useful life of 30+ years!

NZ Roads suffer because of the volcanic chip that most of our roads are built with, it retains the heat much longer than what other countries use, and there is simply no practical alternative with us being a pokey little island in the middle of nowhere.

Bullshit.

The melting point of the Tar is too low due to your lab rat mates fucking up the brew. It's diluted.
Like MSTRS I too have contacts in the roading buisness.
Go walk bare foot on a blue chip road in Aussie. Its a LOT hotter than the road surface here and the tar doesn't melt.
You gonna try & blame the UV index of the Kiwi sun now?

.

[Badjelly]

On another KB thread I was informed, by someone who sounded like he knew what he was talking about, that it's bitumen these days, not tar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitumen

[Iain]

Hey all,

Considering the amount of construction and road repaving going on in my area of late, I thought Id ask; once riding over a freshly paved road, whether its hot or not, is there anything to consider in regards to stuff still on the tires?

Does the bitumen stick to the tires for any length of time - do I need to consider that Ive just riden over it when I come to the next corner?

Thanks all!

Iain

[MSTRS]

On another KB thread I was informed, by someone who sounded like he knew what he was talking about, that it's bitumen these days, not tar:



Doubt it. Bitumen is also known as asphalt. No added chip on top. If all roads were sealed this way, we would be in Nirvana.
Note it's boiling point of 525 degrees Celsius....the Bay gets hot, but considerably less than that.

[Angusdog]

It's not the boiling point, but the melting point which is causing the problem.

There must be a week or two during the year when there isn't melted tar, flooding or ice on the road...

[MSTRS]

It's not the boiling point, but the melting point which is causing the problem.


Correct. But I can't conceive of anything that would melt at 25c but not boil until 525c...

[jrandom]

I can't conceive of anything that would melt at 25c but not boil until 525c...

Why not?

Mercury melts at -38°C and boils at 356°C.

[MSTRS]

Oh. Well, better not use that to hold the chip on the roads....

[Ixion]

Interesting paper on this here (http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/research/reports/278.pdf)

Basically, it's not the heat, it's cheap crap roads.

Another interesting figure. Because chip seal has a short life, it needs constant resurfacing which further reduces life. The life of a chip seal is about 3 to 8 years.

Yet, if you go to many parts of Auckland where an older main road is being dug up (to relay the chip seal!), you will see, once the chip seal is scraped off, that underneath is the original concrete road. Put in in the 1930s usually. And always still in excellent condition.

So , 8 years (max) or 80 years (and still good to go). I wonder which one is REALLY cheaper.

[spookytooth]

personally i think some kind of build responsibility from the contractors is needed.You priced the job you did the job go fix the fucing thing at your cost would go along way to better roads

[imdying]

Basically, it's not the heat, it's cheap crap roads.No no, it's global warming... the quality of construction of the roads in NZ was fine till the cows started farting.

[tri boy]

Just returned from a quick drive into Hamilton. Stopped at the drive entrance/letterbox. This area was resealed about 8weeks ago, as Te Kowhai rd has alot of tip truck movement from the sand quarry about 10k away.

The tar is oozing out from below the chip,(which can be flicked away easily with a twig), and is creeping down the drive entance which has about a 3 degree incline.

Nice Work Transit!

Grow some balls, and thump the transport ministers desk, until he either agrees to decent sealing budgets, or has a heart attack from the stress.

[Wasp27]

:apint:
personally i think some kind of build responsibility from the contractors is needed.You priced the job you did the job go fix the fucing thing at your cost would go along way to better roads

Just talked to the Roading Contractors that were resealing our road yesterday....he said that they knew it was crap seal but that was the spec they were told to use....apparently it's all layed down in the tender...."It's not our fault.... it's what they want" so I guess you need to look higher up the ladder:msn-wink: To give you an idea of how effective a seal it is....we had our driveway at work (HB Airport) Tarsealed with the same chip seal for the first time just before xmas and 2 weeks later the couch had popped straight through it and was merrily spreading itself across the driveway. Might as well have painted it with Tire Paint for all the good it done:angry: Does the phrase 'Contributory Negligence' ring any bells:whistle:

[Bikernereid]

Roads round NP and Mt Messenger were not fun at all, well unless you are into that which I was not!!


came through highway 43 on Thursday was alot of melt mid arvo and yep it was slippery

[xwhatsit]

How do the nice tarmac bitumen roads last comparably?

[sAsLEX]

Does the phrase 'Contributory Negligence' ring any bells:whistle:

Especially when they just go covering the melt in loose gravel with out signposting it

[Blue Velvet]

Especially when they just go covering the melt in loose gravel with out signposting it

Yeah... like the Desert Road last Friday night... :blink:

[jrandom]

Roads round NP and Mt Messenger were not fun at all...

I did Mt Messenger on Betty in heavy rain on Christmas day last year on my way to Wanganui with kiwifruit.

The shiny tarry bits on the southern side required riding over at very little beyond walking pace.

:no:

[oldrider]

This summer is getting to be more like they used to be when we were kids.

Summers have been colder of late.

They are just getting back to normal now and all their cheap jack road works are starting to show up all over the place.

Zadok_oz and I have compared temperatures in Perth and NZ and road conditions (tar melting) before. (Talking to each other on Skype)

Our (NZ) tar melts at very low temps compared to theirs! (Aus)

NZ is just mediocrity driven, right from the top!

Any little applied pressure and all their weaknesses are exposed and show up! :shifty: John.

[Grub]

... the quality of construction of the roads in NZ was fine till the cows started farting.


I knew it was all Cowpoos fault! He has a lot to answer for that dude does

[BIGBOSSMAN]

This summer is getting to be more like they used to be when we were kids.

Summers have been colder of late.

They are just getting back to normal now and all their cheap jack road works are starting to show up all over the place.

Our (NZ) tar melts at very low temps compared to theirs! (Aus)

NZ is just mediocrity driven, right from the top!

Any little applied pressure and all their weaknesses are exposed and show up! :shifty: John.

Yes I remember those blazing hot summers, the Coppertone girl and Crazy Joe's!
Why do the monkeys that run this place continue to screw us with poor quality infrastructure? It's bloody third world, and I'm sick of it. I did a Coro loop in November and the road from Hikuai to Kopu was a melting disaster area then, heaven knows what it's been like in the past couple of weeks.
Would be safer to coat them with Whittakers chocolate!

It's depressingly amazing :Oi:

[OV Lander]

Tar melt ruined a good ride over the Takaka hill for me last week too. In parts you could not see any chip as it had all bee 'absorbed' into the bitumen - so much so that having tip toed down the hill I came across a gritting truck working his way up the other side.

[PrincessBandit]

Yep, nice big patch caught me by surprise on the way back from Kaiaua through Hunua yesterday. My son (following gijoe1313) had pointed it out but I was still caught by the size of it and the bike did the sideways glide across the centre line. Even with being pointed out it was still hard to see.

[Gasman]

Yep, nice big patch caught me by surprise on the way back from Kaiaua through Hunua yesterday. My son (following gijoe1313) had pointed it out but I was still caught by the size of it and the bike did the sideways glide across the centre line. Even with being pointed out it was still hard to see.


I had the same experience on the West Coast last summer. Really put the shits up me. I hear that Transit are moving more and more to hot mix, in an attempt to reduce maintenance costs. Wouldn't have anything to do with safety of course..........................just thinking of the bloody money. has anyone else heard something similar? If it's true it's great news!

[MSTRS]

I hear that Transit are moving more and more to hot mix, in an attempt to reduce maintenance costs.

If true, the extra it costs (initially) must be coming from the barrier budget...

[madandy]

If true, the extra it costs (initially) must be coming from the barrier budget...

Well that might explain why we get nice new concrete barriers in Tauranga but they still give us stiking tar bleeding chipseal rubbish on the high speed areas.

[Blue Velvet]

Bleeding tar goat track interspersed with wash outs and stretches of loose gravel spread on the road (at least signposted, but still...).

It was marginally better returning from Raetihi, but still not on my list of enjoyable roads to lose yourself in.

However, the road below was in much better condition.

N.B. When you emerge at Hunterville, don't stop. The people you see waving aren't actually waving at you to say 'hi' :blink:

[MattyP]

My bike is currently getting r/h clipon, mirror, indicator and brake lever replaced because of a wet tar patch.

I'd just pulled away from the side of the road and started accelerating. Once the back wheel hit the tar in the centre of my lane - instant loss of traction. Did a complete 180 with the back spinning the whole way round. All happened too quickly to react.

I initially thought the patch on the road was fuel leaking from the top of my tank, but closer investigation revealed the truth.

[Iain]

doh... I still think you were trying to ride backwards again... :P