Moving weight around bike to suit cornering?

[McDuck]

Yo. After seeing track guys shift their bum around on the seat before a corner i had a go this arvo and it felt good. Is there anything i should be doing or i should not be doing?

[James Deuce]

You really don;t need to do it on the road, because you just aren't going quick enough to get anything from it. There were a rash of tickets dished out in the early '90s for riders caught hanging off, though this seems to have stopped happening of late.

Seeing as how I'm not going to talk you out of it.

1. Look through the corner.
2. Relax.
3. Do not use the handle bars as gym equipment. They're for steering not hanging on to.
4. You only need to shift your butt a couple of inches to make a difference.
5. Wedge your outside (the uphill one, the one on the the highside of the bike) knee against the tank and weight the outside peg.
6. Don't hang off the handle bars, use your legs to move around.
7. If you MUST do it all the time, don't be sitting on the seat through a series of bends. Hover over it so that your weight shifts quickly and smoothly from one side to the other. Not up, out, back, plonk, up out back. The plonk into the seat will upset the bike.
8. You REALLY don;t need to do it on the road.
9. Don't hang off the handlebars.
10. You really don't need to do it on the road.

[EnzoYug]

Yo. After seeing track guys shift their bum around on the seat before a corner i had a go this arvo and it felt good. Is there anything i should be doing or i should not be doing?

unfortunately this does nothing for speed / cornering. it might feel good but it's just you - you're not performing any better.


The way I came to this dramatic conclusion was by reading a article written by a professional race trainer who decided that he needed to teach the kids at his school that it's counter/steering - not weight shifting - that moves the bike.

He welded a set of static bars above the normal ones on his zxr 750 (the bars didn't move but had secondary throttle controls on them) and got his classes to ride the bike and try turn / move corner etc.... with them. Nothing happened. Every one of his classes testified that hanging off / weight shifting didn't turn the bike... or do shit at all. The bike has too much momentum and inertia for a riders body weight to affect - especially at speed where bikes are like gyroscopes (they want to run true lines)

it's what your hands are doing that turns the bike. therefore hanging off might encourage you to push or pull a different way, but it's nothing you can't teach yourself to do with bum firmly in seat.


Anyway - this is all someones else's logic. and no i didn't bring names, dates or numbesr with me. so it's probably all shit. who cares, it's late.

[Mikkel]

Well, the only reason you'd ever want to hang off the bike is to be able to keep the bike more upright while cornering at a certain radius and speed.

The only time you need that is if you're cornering so fast and tightly that your pegs/fairing (whichever comes first) will touch the ground before you get the necessary leverage compared to your contact surface. ...or if you want to achieve that knee-down thing everyone are rambling about ;)

As Jim said - you don't need it on the road. And I'll even add - if you're riding like that on the road, all the time, you're a dick and don't leave enough of a safety margin in your riding. It is however good to know how to do and if you ever underestimate a corner or need to turn quickly it can save your ass. Other than that I'd suggest saving it for the track.
Oh, and one thing Jim forgot - make sure you keep your weight forward (give your front wheel as much weight bias as possible)... try and kiss your wing mirrors as someone on here put it a while back.

[James Deuce]

Oh, and one thing Jim forgot - make sure you keep your weight forward (give your front wheel as much weight bias as possible)... try and kiss your wing mirrors as someone on here put it a while back.
That's shifting weight in two axes, something you should only do if you are confident at reading the amount of available front-end traction at any given time.

There's a lot going on when you start dragging your weight forward as well as from side to side.

Baby steps.

[Mikkel]

That's shifting weight in two axes, something you should only do if you are confident at reading the amount of available front-end traction at any given time.

There's a lot going on when you start dragging your weight forward as well as from side to side.

Baby steps.

True - it's a very complex mechanical (and by that I mean newtonian) system when it comes down to it. And grasping it analytically in it's full 3D glory is extremely difficult...

If you keep the throttle on throughout the corner though I'd say it'll be better to keep forwards than backwards weight wise. Whatever happens I guess that loosing the grip of the front wheel would be worse than having the rear let go.
But, on second thought, I think you covered it very nicely with your "Don't hang off the handlebars!" bit. If you're leaning out and want to retain the correct and relaxed angle in your elbows you'll need to lean forward slightly as well... :)

[ital916]

As Jim said - you don't need it on the road. And I'll even add - if you're riding like that on the road, all the time, you're a dick and don't leave enough of a safety margin in your riding. It is however good to know how to do and if you ever underestimate a corner or need to turn quickly it can save your ass. Other than that I'd suggest saving it for the track.
Oh, and one thing Jim forgot - make sure you keep your weight forward (give your front wheel as much weight bias as possible)... try and kiss your wing mirrors as someone on here put it a while back.

I'm learning to do it, on the road. I'm not a dick, and i leave plenty of safety margin, I've come across situation where there is a tight turn but i would like to keep my bike as upright as possible, shifting my weight allows me to do this, plus it's just good practice seeing as It will be a while before the track. It's not hurting anyone so don't speel about others being dicks when they do it, thanks for the tips though willbe noted and practised....on the road *and track when i get there*.lol

p.s i don't speed so im not a looney race track is the road rider

[imdying]

I do it on the road... I'm too tall for my RGV, so it's the easiest (only) way to get enough room for my foot to get back far enough on the peg to stop it dragging on the ground :lol:

[jrandom]

Try following a GSX-R1000 on the road while riding a GSX1400, and then come back and tell me that you don't need to shift your weight around.

Weight transfer manifestly does make any bike go around a corner better.

Riders who stay plopped in the middle of their seat and keep themselves in line with the bike's chassis run out of lean angle far sooner, and put themselves in danger of running wide on decreasing-radius corners when they get to the edge of their tyres and/or start dragging bits of the bike and find there's no more lean to be leaned.

On Betty, I tend to achieve the weight transfer by waving my torso about rather than shunting my bum off the seat. Easier to do it that way on a bike with low pegs.

But it has to be done. You can get away without significant weight transfer on a sportbike with shitloads of ground clearance (I think this is what Jim2 speaks of) but not everybody rides a sprotbike (yeah, Jim, don't be such an elitist) and when you're riding a bike that grinds the pegs at a moment's notice, moving your body around for corners is no longer optional if you want to travel at anything beyond "gentle pootling" pace.

[90s]

There is something else small you can try that helps cornering, is very simple and has immeadiate benefits: push down on the opposite peg to your cornering (called "weighting the pegs"). So if you are into a left-hander really push on the right peg. It helps if you are also transferring weight, getting off the bike etc, but even if you sit stock still in the saddle you will feel better cornering.

Try it. Not flash, simple, and easy to 'forget' to do. As effective at rolling speeds as it is a long sweepers.

[James Deuce]

I own a Katana like his. The pegs don't touch down until you've fallen off.

Why would you need to shift your weight on it on the road?

It has its place for sure, but until he starts riding the 650 it isn't going to be obvious.

[jrandom]

I own a Katana like his. The pegs don't touch down until you've fallen off.

Why would you need to shift your weight on it on the road?

Decreasing-radius corners. Because you Just Never Know (tm). I've had plenty of 'eek, tip it in, arrgh, hope I don't fall off' moments on various motorcycles that would never have happened if I'd been hanging off the bike a bit.

It sometimes seems as though when one's climbed off, one can tighten one's line almost arbitrarily by simply looking further through the corner. There's no feeling of "will I or will I not run out of lean angle here?"


It has its place for sure, but until he starts riding the 650 it isn't going to be obvious.

I don't really see why he shouldn't be doing it, though.

After all, a successfully hung-off-in corner makes you feel real cool!

And isn't that what it's all about, in the end?

[Bass]

But it has to be done. You can get away without significant weight transfer on a sportbike with shitloads of ground clearance (I think this is what Jim2 speaks of) but not everybody rides a sprotbike (yeah, Jim, don't be such an elitist) and when you're riding a bike that grinds the pegs at a moment's notice, moving your body around for corners is no longer optional if you want to travel at anything beyond "gentle pootling" pace.


1. Increase the preloads
2. Lose some weight
3. Tell it to Mike Hailwood (might need some medium weight help for this one)
:bleh:

[imdying]

After all, a successfully hung-off-in corner makes you feel real cool!

And isn't that what it's all about, in the end?Word up nigga :Punk:

Just do what makes you feel good, life is short.

[skelstar]

I remember when I tried hanging off (well not much) the Hyobag for the first time, I wondered why i hadn't done it sooner. I may not have been going through the corner any faster but it made me feel more confident for some reason. Maybe it just promoted a better line or something.

[bobsmith]

Oh and something no one's mentioned... When you're riding for 6 hours from Palmy to Auckland with minimal stops. Shifting your bum around is an excellent way to prevent you from having really really sore bum during/after the ride. Try it. You'll find that it makes your bum a lot more comfortable.

[Pwalo]

FWIW you're probably going to gain more by learning throttle control and counter steering than any amount of shifting your weight around while you're riding on the road.

It never fails to surprise me how little Mr Rossi moves around on his bike (well unless he's trying to make up time on the Ducati throught the bends).

[Sully60]

I remember when I tried hanging off (well not much) the Hyobag for the first time, I wondered why i hadn't done it sooner. I may not have been going through the corner any faster but it made me feel more confident for some reason. Maybe it just promoted a better line or something.

I think you're on to something there Skel.

But I would say there's difference between "hanging off" and "shifting weight".

Personally I cannot just stay "plopped in the middle of my seat" (something to do with ADHD I imagine).
I'm always shifting around when road riding to load the pegs, getting into a position to pick the bike up on the corner exit, keeping the bike more upright, blah blah blah.
I could probably sit on the seat and ride just as well but it just doesn’t feel safe to me.

And like Jim2 said (3. Do not use the handle bars as gym equipment. They're for steering not hanging on to.) A lot of these movements are to do with allowing me to keep my contact with the handlebars just for steering, controls input and feedback.

"Hanging off" as I would describe it is a racetrack only tool IMO. To achieve the desired effect of hanging off requires the rider to have their weight a good distance from the centreline of the bike which is fine if you can be that committed (like racers can be) but it can limit your control options if things don't go to plan.

[skelstar]

Yeah 'shifting weight'.

Had a mate video me (from in front) going up the Takas a few weeks ago. While I was riding I was thinking that it was going to look ridiculous me jumping around on the bike so much. Truth is, in the video you hardly noticed, but more importantly my HEAD DIDN'T MOVE!

Have since made a conscious effort to move my upper body when I shift my weight. I find in the more aggressive maneuvers, that touching the tank with my elbow on the 'uphill' side helps.

[McDuck]

I own a Katana like his. The pegs don't touch down until you've fallen off.

Why would you need to shift your weight on it on the road?

It has its place for sure, but until he starts riding the 650 it isn't going to be obvious.

Would me being very bigish change anything? (BTW is your kat a 80s one or a 90s one?)

[pritch]

try and kiss your wing mirrors as someone on here put it a while back.

The idea is to have your head near the mirror toward the inside of the turn.
If you look at the racers, like my current avatar (that's Rossi by the way, not me), that's what you should be trying for.

Most people who are trying to get their knee down do it completely wrong, they have their head and torso totally over the wrong side of the bike (kissing the wrong mirror.) They are just swivelling their hips and pushing the bike down. You shouldn't have to look far to find pics demonstrating that on KB.

It occurs to me that if you practice the correct form, sooner or later your knee may make contact with the ground. If you set out with the aim of getting your knee down, you will almost certainly be doing it wrong.

But hey! look at size of my chicken strips... :whistle:

[007XX]

... try and kiss your wing mirrors as someone on here put it a while back.


That would be my lovely teacher master DMNTD. It's exactly what he told me to do on the 23rd of December when I did my first track day, and it made a world of difference :yes:

However, I am not an aggressive enough rider on the road to shift my bum, but it was a world of good on the track...

And the "kiss the mirrors" advice worked on the track and on the road btw.

[vifferman]

The idea is to have your head near the mirror toward the inside of the turn.
If you look at the racers, like my current avatar (that's Rossi by the way, not me), that's what you should be trying for.
Does Rossi have special invisible mirrors? :spudwhat:
Yeah, lead with your chin. :yes:

[discotex]

That would be my lovely teacher master DMNTD. It's exactly what he told me to do on the 23rd of December when I did my first track day, and it made a world of difference :yes:

However, I am not an aggressive enough rider on the road to shift my bum, but it was a world of good on the track...

And the "kiss the mirrors" advice worked on the track and on the road btw.

Yep I find moving my upper body to the inside of the bike much more predictable for 99% of corners than getting my arse over. That said if I know the road and the corner and plan to nail it through a corner I'll shift my butt.


unfortunately this does nothing for speed / cornering. it might feel good but it's just you - you're not performing any better.



I think you misunderstood what Keith Code is saying in that article you were talking about. He's talking purely about what leans the bike over and yes, countersteering is the only way you will get a bike to lean over.

What Mcduck5n is asking about is in addition to countersteering. Moving your weight inside to the inside allows you to corner sharper or the same sharpness with more speed with the same amount of lean angle (of which there is a limit).

I'll try to explain it but it's hard without pics.

Say you're about to go around a 55km/h corner. From previous experience you know that you always touch your pegs down if you take it at 90km. If you then take the same corner hanging off the inside of the bike you will be able to go faster than 90km/h before your pegs touch down. Conversely if you lean to the outside you will touch your pegs down earlier.

To be honest with the small amount of ground clearance on crusiers I'm surprised it's the sprots bikers hanging off ;)



Anyway - this is all someones else's logic. and no i didn't bring names, dates or numbesr with me. so it's probably all shit. who cares, it's late.

You should bring names. Keith Code knows his shit and reading Twist of the Wrist massively improved my understanding of motorcycle dynamics and therefore improved my riding. I highly suggest you read it. Only $32 at fishpond (http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Books/Sports_Recreation/Motor_Sports/product_info/1327959/).

[James Deuce]

Would me being very bigish change anything? (BTW is your kat a 80s one or a 90s one?)
No. Provided you move smoothly and hover over the seat you'll have no dramas. Mine is a 90s Kat.

I've yet to see a compelling argument for hanging off on the road. Moving a couple of inches in the seat if the corner tightens up, yes. Making sure your body weight is on the inside of the bike in a corner (pointing your shoulder at the apex will do this for you unconciously), yes. Hanging off like a peat monkey in search of a shot of Laphroaig, no.

Read this:

http://www.canyonchasers.net/reference/the_pace.php

This guy can ride rings around anyone on KB.

[ital916]

I didn't know about weighting the pegs? SO when say taking a 55km/h corner at 90km/h lol you would shift your weight left, kiss the left mirror and weight the right peg...how does wieghting the peg physically work?

[jrandom]

This guy can ride rings around anyone on KB.

He sounds like a typical American blowhard. Fat and loud and not nearly as fast and/or intelligent as he thinks he is.

...

I wrote that, and then thought, don't pre-judge, go check his credentials. So I googled him, and learned that he won a few no-name club races 17 years ago and has been a bike journo ever since.

Colour me unsurprised.

[McDuck]

One of the benefits i found was with my size i could move around more and reduce any discomfort form being squashed on a small bike.

[buellbabe]

Very interesting read...This whole weight transfer/shift thing...surely its an instinctual thing that should come naturally to anyone who has been riding enuf years? I'm not talking about trying to get yr knee down but just normal cornering...

I don't hang off the side of my bike but I do shift my weight to suit what I want the bike to do. I don't consciously think about it, its just something that my body does naturally.

[007XX]

Yep I find moving my upper body to the inside of the bike much more predictable for 99% of corners than getting my arse over. That said if I know the road and the corner and plan to nail it through a corner I'll shift my butt.
.

Exactly...so between that and a little coutersteering thrown in the mix, my confidence and ability increased enormously on the day, and for the following rides (between Auckland and Wanganui for example). I can now "shadow" 007XY in the corners when I used to fall back due to throttling down in fear I couldn't take the corner unless I powered down.

It's an awesome feeling being in control and gliding around the corners :woohoo:

[007XX]

Very interesting read...This whole weight transfer/shift thing...surely its an instinctual thing that should come naturally to anyone who has been riding enuf years? I'm not talking about trying to get yr knee down but just normal cornering...

I don't hang off the side of my bike but I do shift my weight to suit what I want the bike to do. I don't consciously think about it, its just something that my body does naturally.

I don't think it is just the shifting of weight though...it's also where & when to move your upper body, where and when to apply pressure to the handlebars or the footpegs, where to look...

When you're starting, there is quite a bit to think of and assimilate. And personally, I learn better if I am shown when I'm actually doing it (as on the track days), then telling my experience to someone more knowledgeable and they can feed me tidbits of advice back which I'll put into practice on the next set of laps...

Then again, I was told that a lucky few are instinctual about these things, and I am just green with envy...:o

[Nagash]

What's with this 'getting the knee down' bull. I'm tall enough (and my cruiser's low enough) to just drag my knees down the road..

But I find the body shifting (especially weighting the pegs) to be a real effective means of stopping the pegs from scraping which may well help them last a wee bit longer..

Try riding on the passenger seat and doing some of that stuff :P now there's a fun experiance.

[FROSTY]

Many many years ago I asked a race riding instructor about my body position on the bike.
He told me to go watch the f2 (550/600) guys.
there were that year about 7 guys in hot contention for the national title.
There were as many different riding styles as there were bikes.
Point being--dude do what feels comfortable to YOU.
Our mate Motoracer made that mistake first season out racing.-at a race school again
He LOOKED like he was going fucking fast hanging his ass off the bike -knee planted -right untill (i think ) Freddy Merkle went flying past him sitting basicly upright and waving him on.
Freddie asked him if he wanted to go fast --or look like he was going fast. By hanging off less and being smoother with his body transition MR carved about 1.5 seconds off his lap times.
Application to road riders??
Hanging off at road speeds is usually a matter of form over function-except for a wee bit of weight changing.
The only time I disagree with that is in the wet where I use more body english to keep the bike upright

[NZsarge]

Decreasing-radius corners. Because you Just Never Know (tm). I've had plenty of 'eek, tip it in, arrgh, hope I don't fall off' moments on various motorcycles that would never have happened if I'd been hanging off the bike a bit.


A huh, had one of those moments just recently when I took a M109R for a blast....I mean pootle.:laugh:

Kinda awkward trying to hang off a cruiser though, plus it looks kinda daft!:killingme

[James Deuce]

He sounds like a typical American blowhard. Fat and loud and not nearly as fast and/or intelligent as he thinks he is.

...

I wrote that, and then thought, don't pre-judge, go check his credentials. So I googled him, and learned that he won a few no-name club races 17 years ago and has been a bike journo ever since.

Colour me unsurprised.
Not quite. I think you should look a bit harder.

[James Deuce]

A huh, had one of those moments just recently when I took a M109R for a blast....I mean pootle.:laugh:

Kinda awkward trying to hang off a cruiser though, plus it looks kinda daft!:killingme

No need to hang off. Throttle on hard on an M109 and the rear jacks up about 6 inches. Feels wrong in a decreasing radius corner but it gives you heaps more ground clearance.

[jrandom]

No need to hang off. Throttle on hard on an M109 and the rear jacks up about 6 inches.

I so want to ride one-a them things.

:eek:

[NZsarge]

I so want to ride one-a them things.

:eek:
Let me tip ya this......Go through corners much much slower than you think you should:pinch:

[jrandom]

Not quite. I think you should look a bit harder.

Looked harder. Didn't find anything to contradict that impression.

Some dude who's been spouting off in bike rags for 20 years is not necessarily going to be right about shit, but he's sure as hell going to think he's right, and generate pomposity accordingly.

If journalistic exposure was the primary qualification for offering rider training advice, I'd be going to Dave Cohen for a training trackday next month, not Aaron Slight.

(No offense, Dave.)

[pritch]

This guy can ride rings around anyone on KB.

My money's on Shaun :shutup:

[McDuck]

My money's on Shaun :shutup:

mine aint.

[discotex]

What's with this 'getting the knee down' bull. I'm tall enough (and my cruiser's low enough) to just drag my knees down the road..


I think you meant to say "knuckles" there ;)

[90s]

The only time I disagree with that is in the wet where I use more body english to keep the bike upright

How did you know I'm English, Kiwi?

That aside, its a good point. There is definite benefit in keeping the bike more upright by moving your body off the bike in the wet. I do it a little on the road, and although I'm not a track racer I guess it is vital.

Ironically, many people want to get off the bike on the track to lean over as far as possible to look super-cool, where the point is to keep the bike as upright as you can. Form and function again huh?

[mitchilin]

http://www.1000rr.us/multimedia/Keith.Code-A.Twist.Of.The.Wrist.Volume.II-fixed.zip

Not sure if this will work but I found a real useful shortcut on Kiwibiker the other day.This should clarify any concerns and be of value to most.

[ital916]

I tried weighting the pegs today, hmmm it feels odd lol think i'll take baby steps and learn to get line and weight shift down first.

[Cr1MiNaL]

whoever said not to shift weight and lean off a bike on the road imho knows sweet fuk all. road riding is 2ce as more dangerous than track riding. Thats all. YR64L out.

[discotex]

Not sure if this will work but I found a real useful shortcut on Kiwibiker the other day.This should clarify any concerns and be of value to most.

You could at least pay the guy by buying the book as I linked to before (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1382904&postcount=24). It's only $32 for jebus sake.

Stealing from someone that's put so much into biker education is pretty lame. In fact I believe his family has already visited KB to remind people it's not a free book.

Then again it's a steal music, steal movies, steal books kinda world. Guess you can't complain some people steal bikes and cars too eh... I mean shit.. I'm only borrowing it. I'll buy if it's good right?

/rant

[Mike748]

IMHO there is shifting weight (bum and shoulders) and there is hanging off (knee down) and they are quite different.
For me shifting weight helps me on unfamiliar corners. :shit:
However I also buy into the fact that there is more than one style of riding and that experience, confidence and equipment will rule.

[mitchilin]

You could at least pay the guy by buying the book as I linked to before (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1382904&postcount=24). It's only $32 for jebus sake.

Stealing from someone that's put so much into biker education is pretty lame. In fact I believe his family has already visited KB to remind people it's not a free book.

Then again it's a steal music, steal movies, steal books kinda world. Guess you can't complain some people steal bikes and cars too eh... I mean shit.. I'm only borrowing it. I'll buy if it's good right?

/rant

Fair enough comment.I just spent $70 on "The Soft Science of Motorcycle racing "so it is a bargain at $32.And I don't feel it's moral to do such things but Libraries have books for free and if reading it saves someone on this forum from injury or worse then its someway justified.Keith Code is richer than me anyway and would just spend the money on drugs or give it to L.Ron Hubbard.

[Weaver]

When I first started riding over the 'takas, I wasn't shifting my weight. Subsequently I started scraping my pegs. Then one evening Limbimwimtim followed me over the hill and told me that I needed to shift my weight around and that I was leaning over unnecessarily far. So I started to do this and the following week he told me that I was only shifting my arse and not my shoulders with it. So now I go into the corner with my shoulder foward.
Now that I've started shifting my weight, I haven't scrapped the pegs since then, but I feel alot more confiedent.


I pilfered this pic from one of Uncle B's posts

[discotex]

Fair enough comment.I just spent $70 on "The Soft Science of Motorcycle racing "so it is a bargain at $32.And I don't feel it's moral to do such things but Libraries have books for free and if reading it saves someone on this forum from injury or worse then its someway justified.Keith Code is richer than me anyway and would just spend the money on drugs or give it to L.Ron Hubbard.


Posting it up on a public forum for thousands to download is a bit different to just handing a copy to a mate to help them with their riding. I've personally got no real issue with that as it's not that much different to lending the book to a mate.