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Turbo Bong
30th August 2005, 17:28
How do you counter-steer for a corner? Do you lean first in the direction you want to turn then push on the handle bars in the opposite direction or is it vice-versa. Must one overcome the fear of falling from grace or just put some balls on and go. How low can you lean, how low should you lean.
Is it best to hang off the bike when you lean into a corner?

Hmmm :doobey:

hXc
30th August 2005, 17:34
Counter-steering is automatic at speeds of over 20kms or so. It's those laws of gravity and physics that do it. It is impossible to go around a corner over 20kms or so without counter-steering.

There was a huge thread about this a while back. Can't remember what it was called.

SuperDave
30th August 2005, 17:49
How do you counter-steer for a corner? Do you lean first in the direction you want to turn then push on the handle bars in the opposite direction or is it vice-versa. Must one overcome the fear of falling from grace or just put some balls on and go. How low can you lean, how low should you lean.
Is it best to hang off the bike when you lean into a corner?

Hmmm :doobey:

As mentioned the counteering this is very subconscious, you do it without even realising it. It just becomes instinctive really. As far as leaning goes, it depends on many variables - corner, surface, bike, tyres, you and so on. As for hanging far off the bike in the corner, I've personally found this pretty counter-productive at times. Unless your really need to hang off a smoother more controlled line without any of the flashy hanging off can be just as fast and even faster.

mattt
30th August 2005, 17:52
Go 100 clicks into a 50k corner. You'll pick it up from there :ride:

Motu
30th August 2005, 18:02
Get sideways - then you're doin' it,not just pretending.

bugjuice
30th August 2005, 19:01
leaning off the bike allows you to take corners faster than you would being sat on the bike. It's all about the centre of gravity (cog) in relation to everything else. By leaning off the bike into the corner, you are able to let the bike ride a little more upright (which would make you run off the corner), so you then lean off the bike to bring it round a corner. Might be a little hard to explain. First off, it's not something you need to know to be able to ride. It'll come with time and experience like everything else. One way to understand the basics of COG etc, could be to try this - going in a straight line, lean off the bike, and at the same time, you lean the bike out the other way. The bike is then leaning over (as if in a corner the opposite way) while you're leaning to counter-act/change the COG and make it go straight. You've then got more lean/grip on that side you're leaning off. Obviously, you lean off the other side to turn the other corners!
The end result, means thru a corner, you have more tyre surface making contact with the road, which is giving you more grip, thus more speed thru a corner, but it's not heaps, and isn't necessary for normal road riding. If you get onto a track, try it there..

The counter-steering, it'll just happen without you even knowing..

Hitcher
30th August 2005, 19:11
Use the most excellent "search" facility to check out all of the old offerings on countersteering.

I am amazed as to how many motorcyclists are unaware of this phenomenum. Demonstrate it to yourself at low speeds by pushing forwards on each grip in turn and observing how the bike turns in the direction you're pushing. This is countersteering at its simplest. The actual physics themselves are more complicated to explain. So I won't. Use this technique to practice weaving amongst catseyes on the road (when you've got no oncoming traffic, otherwise you may put the shits up a few cagers). Start at about 30kmh and increase your speed steadily as you gain confidence.

Bonez
30th August 2005, 19:21
Use the most excellent "search" facility to check out all of the old offerings on countersteering.

I am amazed as to how many motorcyclists are unaware of this phenomenum. .A few on KB at the mo. Seems getting one knee down is
more important than learning to counter steer properly these days.

riffer
30th August 2005, 19:34
Seems getting one knee down is
more important than learning to counter steer properly these days.

Some of the fastest and best riders ever never got off their seat at all.

madboy
30th August 2005, 19:52
Some of the fastest and best riders ever never got off their seat at all.I think you're confusing outright speed with looking good. It's soooo much cooler to hang off the bike. And we all know that "cool" adds 30km/h to any cornering speed.

mattt
30th August 2005, 19:55
I think you're confusing outright speed with looking good. It's soooo much cooler to hang off the bike. And we all know that "cool" adds 30km/h to any cornering speed.

Haha, Yeh that and telling your mates after a beer or 7, that'll add another 20kph :Punk:

Turbo Bong
30th August 2005, 20:58
Cheers. Not worried about looking good hanging on the corners etc..
More interested in why rather than how. :ride:

Ahh she'll be right mate, she'll be right. :sherlock:

Posh Tourer :P
30th August 2005, 21:11
I am amazed as to how many motorcyclists are unaware of this phenomenum.


Is this correct english, or is it brain fade? I always thought it was a phenomenon?

froggyfrenchman
30th August 2005, 21:13
i always get worried when hearing learnrs talkn bout countersteer. they get confused worring bout it and fall off... its natural. if you feel the need, on a good winding road you know well... go a LITTLE faster than usal and push a little more than you normall would on the bars. This will cause you to lean further, the desired effect. To demonstrate to urself, ride on straight road and swerve around an amaginary object then back to your own line. Good luck and keep the shiny side up

Hitcher
30th August 2005, 21:18
Is this correct english, or is it brain fade? I always thought it was a phenomenon?
It's always nice to see that somebody around here is awake!

Lou Girardin
31st August 2005, 09:03
I think you're confusing outright speed with looking good. It's soooo much cooler to hang off the bike. And we all know that "cool" adds 30km/h to any cornering speed.

Until you get passed on the outside of a corner by some Grandad who doesn't know how to hang off, just ride fast. :whistle:

Pixie
31st August 2005, 11:07
A few on KB at the mo. Seems getting one knee down is
more important than learning to counter steer properly these days.
I was amused a all the "hanging off" that was going on on a recent KB ride,Funny,they didn't seem to be going around the bends as fast as the bandit though. :devil2:

roogazza
31st August 2005, 12:28
Until you get passed on the outside of a corner by some Grandad who doesn't know how to hang off, just ride fast. :whistle:

heh heh heh good one ! I think it's a Bandit thing too !!!! G.

Bonez
31st August 2005, 12:34
heh heh heh good one ! I think it's a Bandit thing too !!!! G.
Hmmm Phil Turnbill have just dropped the price on a s/h naked 01 one, I think it is, with 52,000 up Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

XP@
31st August 2005, 13:31
How do you counter-steer for a corner? Do you lean first in the direction you want to turn then push on the handle bars in the opposite direction or is it vice-versa. Must one overcome the fear of falling from grace or just put some balls on and go. How low can you lean, how low should you lean.
Is it best to hang off the bike when you lean into a corner?

Hmmm :doobey:

You will cover this in your lessons (which you will be taking won't you!). As I have recently been shown having an instructor show you exactly where to position your arms, knees, bum and head.

You can lean all the way over so that feet, pegs and possibly other bits are touching. Is that advisable, not really under normal road conditions.
You should be able to stop within the distance you can see and stopping quickly whilst cranked over is not easy, it eats up too much traction.

CPB
31st August 2005, 16:24
Use the most excellent "search" facility to check out all of the old offerings on countersteering.

I am amazed as to how many motorcyclists are unaware of this phenomenum. Demonstrate it to yourself at low speeds by pushing forwards on each grip in turn and observing how the bike turns in the direction you're pushing. This is countersteering at its simplest. The actual physics themselves are more complicated to explain. So I won't. Use this technique to practice weaving amongst catseyes on the road (when you've got no oncoming traffic, otherwise you may put the shits up a few cagers). Start at about 30kmh and increase your speed steadily as you gain confidence.


Just keep an eye out for the sheriff factor...they often have a problem with the "i was conducting counter steering practice" excuse...

FROSTY
18th January 2008, 12:50
You'll hear other riders going on about countersteering and what it does.
Dunno about you lot but egghead types going on about gyro this or that gives me a headache.
Do ya really want to know what countersteerings all about?
Find a long straight quiet bit of road.
Ride up and down it slowly to make sure its clear of hazards.
Now staying towards the middle ride up the road at 50km/h. Pull back on the left bar and push on the right bar gently. -so you are turning the front wheel to the LEFT
Now do the same again this time pull the right bar and push the left. so turning the wheel to the right
Which direction did the bike turn?
Congratulations you now know about countersteering -easy innnit ?

007XX
18th January 2008, 12:53
Countersteering absolutely rocks :headbang: Please practice it as it is one of the most usefull tools there is!

Disco Dan
18th January 2008, 12:55
Then do the same thing but at 20kmph.... hehehehehe

Hitcher
18th January 2008, 12:56
The site's most excellent search facility using the word "countersteering" will reveal a myriad of most useful information and tips on this subject.

DMNTD
18th January 2008, 12:56
Countersteering absolutely rocks :headbang: Please practice it as it is one of the mist usefull tools there is!

Along with kissing your mirrors eh :2thumbsup

Luckylegs
18th January 2008, 13:00
The site's most excellent search facility using the word "countersteering" will reveal a myriad of most useful information and tips on this subject.

...But not as many as you'd find doing a search for "search facility".... :msn-wink:

007XX
18th January 2008, 13:01
Along with kissing your mirrors eh :2thumbsup

:not: Yes, my teacher...

:niceone: That'd have to be #1 on my list...

Luckylegs
18th January 2008, 13:08
...and push on the right bar gently. -so you are turning the front wheel to the LEFT
Now do the same again this time pull the right bar and push the left. so turning the wheel to the right

...But, but... but, i cant push the bar forward... I can push it down but not forward ????? WTF ? :scratch:


Along with kissing your mirrors eh :2thumbsup

....With tongue in and eyes open !

ArcherWC
18th January 2008, 13:09
I want to know how people get around without counterstearing, it should just come naturally to anyone on two wheels

007XX
18th January 2008, 13:15
I want to know how people get around without counterstearing, it should just come naturally to anyone on two wheels

Doesn't always when you're learning...not automatically anyway! Once again, when you're a true newbie to bike riding, there is heaps of various moves that need to be coordinated together (weight on/off pegs, arse moving or not on the seat, where your upper body needs to be, where you're supposed to look...and the list goes on)

I am so sick of you all-knowing bloody biking geniuses mocking us poor little learners :nya:

:dodge:

MSTRS
18th January 2008, 13:19
I am so sick of you all-knowing bloody biking geniuses mocking us poor little learners

Oh, we're not mocking...perhaps grinning slightly in remembrance of when we used to fuck up too...

Luckylegs
18th January 2008, 13:22
I want to know how people get around without counterstearing, it should just come naturally to anyone on two wheels

They dont (they couldnt)... Its natural to apply the basic principal, but I think you have to be consious of it to pick up on the mechanics etc etc of it to be able to apply it consitently, appropriately and effectively (did they all just say the same thing ???)... Your so busy choking on ya nuts (sorry gals) when you first start riding theres no time for your brain to register what forces the body is applying to the bars...

007XX
18th January 2008, 13:27
Oh, we're not mocking...perhaps grinning slightly in remembrance of when we used to fuck up too...

Why you condescending old bugger :spanking: I will have you know I don't fuck up Mister...I gently lay in total confusion and curfuffle :blink:

But back on topic...I have really found that countersteering helped when on the track at Puke.
But, it is not the sole action of countersteering which helped me on the day.

I guess what my point is, is that it is awesome trying to teach the newbies about such a fantastic technique, but how about trying to explain how it might link with other techniques?

I know this is easier said than done in writing and why training days are essential, but I just thought I'd put my 2 cents worth as a newbie.

Riding a bike is about a sequence of moves, so practicing them all is important. Highlighting one in particular always made me think this was the "fix it all" move which would make me a fantastic rider : Tui anyone?

007XX
18th January 2008, 13:29
They dont (they couldnt)... Its natural to apply the basic principal, but I think you have to be consious of it to pick up on the mechanics etc etc of it to be able to apply it consitently, appropriately and effectively (did they all just say the same thing ???)... Your so busy choking on ya nuts (sorry gals) when you first start riding theres no time for your brain to register what forces the body is applying to the bars...

Exactly what I was trying to say...except for the nuts part of course (I ain't no friggin' chipmunk :p) :innocent:

FROSTY
18th January 2008, 13:31
007 Hearin ya but I think its kinda like karate kid--wax on wax off.
Isolate individual things then put them together as a package

007XX
18th January 2008, 13:35
007 Hearin ya but I think its kinda like karate kid--wax on wax off.
Isolate individual things then put them together as a package

I won't argue cos I respect your wealth of knowledge Frosty...

DMNTD
18th January 2008, 13:47
I won't argue ...

:eek5: someone please note the time and date...this'll be a one off! :dodge:

Luckylegs
18th January 2008, 13:47
I won't argue cos I respect your wealth of knowledge Frosty...

That was my point before though, and the crux (I think) od what 007xx is saying (eek i meant those chromosones to be upper case), sothing like countersteering is nigh on impossible if ya elbows are locked and you welded your gloves to the grips through holding on sooooo hard...

Guess that means that you need to attack the individual parts ion a sensible order as well

spookytooth
18th January 2008, 13:47
most ppl counter steer with out knowing it it used to be called going round the corner :)

cowpoos
18th January 2008, 13:51
I want to know how people get around without counterstearing, it should just come naturally to anyone on two wheels

Yep...your completely right!!
you can not make a motorcycle go around a corner at speed without counter steering...this is physically impossible...whether your aware of doing it...or not...all motorcyclists counter steer.


Doesn't always when you're learning...not automatically anyway! Once again, when you're a true newbie to bike riding, there is heaps of various moves that need to be coordinated together (weight on/off pegs, arse moving or not on the seat, where your upper body needs to be, where you're supposed to look...and the list goes on)

I am so sick of you all-knowing bloody biking geniuses mocking us poor little learners :nya:

:dodge:


Becoming aware of what it is that makes your bike do what you want..or do what it does..is all part of learning..and people will always tease the learners a bit..it happened to them.. :scooter:

But...the chances of getting teased are greatly reduced in the case of women wearing reveiling clothing :innocent:

007XX
18th January 2008, 13:54
:eek5: someone please note the time and date...this'll be a one off! :dodge:

You'll keep, you won't be chortling so much when I get you! :devil2:



That was my point before though, and the crux (I think) od what 007xx is saying (eek i meant those chromosones to be upper case), sothing like countersteering is nigh on impossible if ya elbows are locked and you welded your gloves to the grips through holding on sooooo hard...

Guess that means that you need to attack the individual parts ion a sensible order as well

Yes exactly...*and good spotting on the chromosomes. You'd be amazed how many people think it is something else*

Until DMNTD helped me, no one had really explained in an organised manner how to use the various tricks together, and so was left flundering in the dark as to how to put everything together...wasn't that succesful at it either :o. It makes it a longer and more painful process for some of us who are a bit slow on the uptake :p

jrandom
18th January 2008, 13:57
you can not make a motorcycle go around a corner at speed without counter steering...this is physically impossible...

Yesterday, I turned right into the street I live in, doing about 20kph.

All the way through the turn, my steering head was turned in the direction I was going, rotated a good 10-20 degrees to the right!

I guess this means that the laws of physics are temporarily suspended in Devonport on Thursday nights.

:yes:

Wow. I'll reckon I'll be giving the ATNR a miss next week and using that window of opportunity to build a cold fusion reactor in the bathroom instead.

007XX
18th January 2008, 13:58
Yep...your completely right!!
you can not make a motorcycle go around a corner at speed without counter steering...this is physically impossible...whether your aware of doing it...or not...all motorcyclists counter steer.

Hence the fact that some are still dangerous and bin in corners at speed :bleh:
But you're right, you can't go at speed around a corner without countersteering, and this was partly why I was always going slower than I should have been: I didn't know exactly when and how much countersteering I should use, and also where to put my weight, etc





But...the chances of getting teased are greatly reduced in the case of women wearing reveiling clothing :innocent:

Ya can't be talking about me cos I'm an ATGATT girl through and through :msn-wink:

zxcvbnm
18th January 2008, 14:03
Anyone not already countersteering should put there trainer wheels back on before they crash :)

johan
18th January 2008, 14:09
I want to know how people get around without counterstearing, it should just come naturally to anyone on two wheels

This is how I see it:
Counter steering won't come naturally to anyone, it's a very awkward way of thinking and works against your reflexes. Yet you need to reprogram your reflexes to avoid crashes in unexpected situations.

When you learned to ride the push-bike/bicycle and you finally could turn while still keeping your balance, you've unconsciously learned to counter steer. You're steering the bike with your reflexes, not your mind.
This works great for bicycles most of the time, but will get you into trouble when you move on to the motorbike.
When you first ride the motorbike you'll find it pretty easy to ride and steer during normal cruise. It's very stable with all those big rotating masses and you're having a blast. You'll even start to pick up some more speed, with growing confidence.
It's not until you're in a corner and need to react to something, you're really in deep water if your not aware how to (counter)steer a bike.
Facing an obstacle located at the outside of a right hand corner you're now trying to steer more to the right. Not understanding that you need to counter steer to do so, your hard working mind (not reflexes any more) is going to twist the bars to the right and according to the counter steering theory, this manoeuvre will make the bike raise up from it's right hand lean and start straighten out or go to the left. The driver will freak out, slam the breaks even though he's already descending the 300m deep canyon.

However, the rider understanding counter steering, will just lean his body more to the right while pulling the left handle bar closer to the tank, while his right hand is casually opening the throttle to settle the bike nicely in the corner. ;)

Apply front break slowly while leaned over and you'll really feel how hard work it is to keep the bike leaned. It wants to raise up again. Counter steering will again help you keep your lean.

Anyone not fully understanding the importance of this technique should IMO really try it out on a push bike at low speed till they realize during all these years on two wheels, with or without engine, they never knew how to consciously steer a bike.

Anyway, that's my experience.

cheers beers

Luckylegs
18th January 2008, 14:11
Anyone not already countersteering should put there trainer wheels back on before they crash :)

Yip weve established that, but there are multiple levels of effectively countersteering.

Its ironic that its likely those not countersteering well probably need to apply more pressure to the bars to "tip" further which is gonna be hard with the training wheels on

cowpoos
18th January 2008, 14:12
Yep...your completely right!!
you can not make a motorcycle go around a corner at speed without counter steering...this is physically impossible...whether your aware of doing it...or not...all motorcyclists counter steer.




Yesterday, I turned right into the street I live in, doing about 20kph.



re: read my post ya twit!!! lol

007XX
18th January 2008, 14:17
re: read my post ya twit!!! lol

Eeerrr...I believe he was taking the piss, so you may want to re read carefully your post and his...just saying!

FROSTY
18th January 2008, 14:26
Awrighty --point being countersteering is something talked about a lot.
Understanding what its all about is part of learning biking

Sully60
18th January 2008, 14:28
After all of the above I still don't get it!

Is it like on Cars when Doc Hudson tells Lightning Mc Queen that if you're turning hard enough right you'll end up turning left?

Or is it that everytime I turn I have to count a the steering? One two three four five, can I stop counting now?

All you guys argue like you fix roads, "lousy".:dodge:

Badger8
18th January 2008, 14:32
As a real fresh noob i found i was doing it without even realising. Once i was up to taking corners at pace, i tended to drop my shoulder and lean in a bit, and in doing so i was pushing without actually realising that's what was going on.
THE BEST thing i did to understand it was exactly what was said at the top of this thread. go in a straight line, push the bar and see where you go. I found as i pushed and the bike started to lean, i instinctively dropped in with it, and that's what i was doing all along.

Once i was aware of this, i started playing with the bars in the middle of a corner (always with plenty of room and lean angle to play with tho, safety first :yes: ) and found that the same applied when i was tipped in too. Played with adjusting lines midway through so if i ever need to in a crisis, it comes naturally.

Was the best confidence boost i got since i've been on the bike! :niceone:

discotex
18th January 2008, 15:33
Yesterday, I turned right into the street I live in, doing about 20kph.

All the way through the turn, my steering head was turned in the direction I was going, rotated a good 10-20 degrees to the right!


Not to rain on your parade mate but that's not actually what happened right at the start. Once leant over the wheel does track in the direction of the turn but the initiation of the turn still required an initial input the otherway (but very small at that speed).

Some great videos that show what's happening with some good technical explanations as well.

First one at around 3mph

OLzB5oriblk

This one at around 15mph

M1A7o-aXvqU


re: read my post ya twit!!! lol

Countersteering applies at all speeds. You were right all along mate :)

jrandom
18th January 2008, 15:41
Not to rain on your parade mate but that's not actually what happened right at the start.

Right, I'm going to film myself turning the handlebars to one side at a standstill, and then letting the clutch out with the bars held like that and riding in a continuous circle in that direction.

How much money are you prepared to bet that The Physics Of Countersteering (tm) will somehow intervene and make the universe explode to prevent me?

FROSTY
18th January 2008, 15:43
hey random -mate its all about gyroscopes n stuff-spin em too slow they dont work propper like --and bike wheels are fuck off big gyros
--or summat like that

Luckylegs
18th January 2008, 15:46
Dunno about you lot but egghead types going on about gyro this or that gives me a headache.


hey random -mate its all about gyroscopes n stuff-spin em too slow they dont work propper like --and bike wheels are fuck off big gyros
--or summat like that

Hows that headache coming along then ?

ManDownUnder
18th January 2008, 15:48
How much money are you prepared to bet that The Physics Of Countersteering (tm) will somehow intervene and make the universe explode to prevent me?

If you set up a static turn from a standstill and keep riding around in circles... you're right. Just one question - when was the last time you did that? As soon as you deviate - at all - turn sharper or less sharply... guess what... God forbid you want to straighten up or even *gasp* change direction

MDU
PS - TPOC would be more in keeping with KB Acronyms Of Extreme Sillyness Because We Can - (AOESBWC - tm) ANTR, BDOTGNZA, ATGATT etc...

discotex
18th January 2008, 15:50
Right, I'm going to film myself turning the handlebars to one side at a standstill, and then letting the clutch out with the bars held like that and riding in a continuous circle in that direction.

How much money are you prepared to bet that The Physics Of Countersteering (tm) will somehow intervene and make the universe explode to prevent me?

If you start with the bike totally upright the bike will lean the opposite direction to the way the bars are turned.

If you start with it leant over in the direction of the turn already then sure totally possible.

I'll put $50 down as long as there's no tricks (such as dropping the clutch and sliding the rear etc) and the video is setup correctly to show the angles and wheel etc.

jrandom
18th January 2008, 15:54
Just one question - when was the last time you did that?

At lunchtime, when I pulled a U-turn across the street. I turned my bars, looked over my shoulder, let off the front brake, stuck out a foot and gassed it.

Guess what? The bike went in the direction I had the bars turned.

The point of turning the bars at slow speed isn't to steer like a four-wheeled vehicle. It's to stop the bike falling over flat on its side as you use your weight to flop it around a very short radius.

The wheels don't have to be spinning and exerting magical gyroscopic wossnames to influence the way the bike tips. Ever seen a cyclist do a trackstand? You turn the handlebars in the direction the bike's tipping in to push it back the other way.

If it works when the wheels are at a dead standstill, it's not bloody gyroscopic, is it.

jrandom
18th January 2008, 16:03
If you start with it leant over in the direction of the turn already then sure totally possible.

Ah right.

You are asserting that it is impossible to lean a bike over when it is moving without countersteering, but that it is possible when the bike is at a standstill.

I assert in turn that of course it's bloody possible to lean a bike over without countersteering, whether it's moving or not - you just hang a weight off one side of it and it'll tip!

Ergo, you can turn a motorcycle without countersteering.

Countersteering is just an easy way of making the bike fall to one side. The other option is unbalancing it with weight.

That works less and less well as the bike goes faster and the spinning bits become more powerful gyroscopes.

It's silly to assert that it's always impossible to turn without countersteering.

The reality is, there's a sliding scale - as the bike goes faster and the spinning wheels exert more and more force keeping it upright, more and more weight is needed to pull it over to one side.

Are you telling me that if you suddenly welded a 10 metre long rod with 500kg on the other end of it to the left side of the frame of a motorcycle travelling at 100kph, the motorcycle would not immediately fall over on its left side, even if the steering head was locked in place?

Edit: More to the point, are you asserting that as that gedankenexperiment motorcycle fell over, it would continue to travel in a straight line?

Luckylegs
18th January 2008, 16:03
At the risk of taking this :Offtopic: and even though I know theres a dumb question thread somewhere.....

What steering technique is applied to getting a sidecar round a corner at a great rate of knots

...Yes Im that ignorant (I really dont know) and Yes Im a little :o

FROSTY
18th January 2008, 16:07
talk to kick and co-- Usually a man with strong arms that eats a lot of pies :whistle:

skidMark
18th January 2008, 16:09
whats a corner i just go fast in straight lines....and hop off for the turny bits. :wacko:

ive been told recently it's not hopping off, it's crashing and the reason why is because i am going as fast in the corners as i am in the straights???

i dunno i don't understand these complimercated motormasickle thingys.

FROSTY
18th January 2008, 16:10
ANYHOO--- the point of the thread isnt to say counter steering is THE answer to all cornering questions. The point is to put it into laymans terms and have people experience it in isolation -sheesh

jrandom
18th January 2008, 16:11
Sigh.

The reason, by the way, that countersteering only works 'at speed' is because:

A. when the wheel is turned a particular way and the bike's falling over on itself because of that, it

B. will just keep falling over until it hits the ground, unless

C. the wheels are spinning fast enough to exert enough gyroscopic force to hold it upright.

So when you're going slow, if you try to countersteer, the bike falls over and hits the ground.

When you're going fast, there's enough gyroscopic stability to pull the bike back upright in the face of either turning the front wheel, or unbalancing it weight-wise.

Spinning wheels want to pull a bike upright.

A turned front wheel makes the bike want to fall over toward the back of that wheel.

Moving weight side to side makes the bike want to fall over in the direction of the weight.

Going around corners at any speed is just a combination of the above three factors.

Right, I'm off home!

Luckylegs
18th January 2008, 16:14
...Right, I'm off home!

At the speed of countersteering !!!!

jrandom
18th January 2008, 16:16
Oh, yeah.

You know you're a biker if:

- Your propensity to get dragged into debates on the physics of countersteering causes you to miss a short time window of opportunity to shag your girlfriend before you have to go out for the evening!

God damn it.

Or maybe that's just how you know if you're a geek.

skidMark
18th January 2008, 17:11
ANYHOO--- the point of the thread isnt to say counter steering is THE answer to all cornering questions. The point is to put it into laymans terms and have people experience it in isolation -sheesh


oh cmon frosty this is kiwibiker, when has anything simple not turned into a raging discussion to the death.

Badger8
18th January 2008, 17:17
At the risk of taking this :Offtopic: and even though I know theres a dumb question thread somewhere.....

What steering technique is applied to getting a sidecar round a corner at a great rate of knots

...Yes Im that ignorant (I really dont know) and Yes Im a little :o

A friend of mine from work rides a trike, and she has to steer it like a car. Assume it would be similar for a sidecar, but it'd pay to ask someone who rides one :yes:
Apparently the feel shifts a bit when she gets the inside wheel off the ground tho :whistle:

mitchilin
18th January 2008, 18:06
A friend of mine from work rides a trike, and she has to steer it like a car. Assume it would be similar for a sidecar, but it'd pay to ask someone who rides one :yes:
Apparently the feel shifts a bit when she gets the inside wheel off the ground tho :whistle:

So if you get a car up on two wheels(like the French Hell Drivers did back in 1974) do you countersteer?

cowpoos
18th January 2008, 18:55
Sigh.



yourself...and I...will get together...and methodically do an experiment or 20...I will provide the bike...and we will approch all this from every angle we can..and then do a theasis and post it on KB...along with how every test was conducted.

keen?

Kickaha
18th January 2008, 19:19
A friend of mine from work rides a trike, and she has to steer it like a car. Assume it would be similar for a sidecar,


Yes it is, you go in the direction you turn

FROSTY
18th January 2008, 19:24
Serious question then kickaha.What does the swinger do?

Kickaha
18th January 2008, 19:30
Serious question then kickaha.What does the swinger do?

to put it very very basically he goes left on lefts, right on rights

MisterD
18th January 2008, 19:31
Sigh.

The reason, by the way, that countersteering only works 'at speed' is because:

A. when the wheel is turned a particular way and the bike's falling over on itself because of that, it

B. will just keep falling over until it hits the ground, unless

C. the wheels are spinning fast enough to exert enough gyroscopic force to hold it upright.

So when you're going slow, if you try to countersteer, the bike falls over and hits the ground.

When you're going fast, there's enough gyroscopic stability to pull the bike back upright in the face of either turning the front wheel, or unbalancing it weight-wise.

Spinning wheels want to pull a bike upright.

A turned front wheel makes the bike want to fall over toward the back of that wheel.

Moving weight side to side makes the bike want to fall over in the direction of the weight.

Going around corners at any speed is just a combination of the above three factors.

Right, I'm off home!

And just in case you didn't follow that: gyroscope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope) and countersteer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering)

pritch
18th January 2008, 20:11
007 its kinda like karate kid--wax on wax off.
Isolate individual things then put them together as a package

That's good.

I am looking at another skill, a non-biker one, which I need to re-learn. The advice is to start slow, concentrate on correct form one element at a time at first. Learn to be smooth then gradually up the pace.

That works just as well for riding.

It's possible that everybody who ever rode a motorbike countersteered but until relatively recent years (and the advent of high speed photography?) nobody knew. What we specifically practice now is a mildly exaggerated form which happens to be the fastest way to change direction, short of ricocheting off a solid object.

There are other ways of steering, eg you can steer just by varying your weight on the pedals. The alternatives may not be as quick or as precise but they all have their place.

MacD
18th January 2008, 21:41
Oh, yeah.

You know you're a biker if:

- Your propensity to get dragged into debates on the physics of countersteering causes you to miss a short time window of opportunity to shag your girlfriend before you have to go out for the evening!

God damn it.

Or maybe that's just how you know if you're a geek.

Well I'm married so that's no longer an issue :mellow:, and I know I'm a geek so...

Here's an article on countersteering, but its written by an academic so nobody will believe a word of it! :wacko:

Countersteering is used to initiate turns and is best thought of as a lean adjustment tool. Once leaned over the steering head rotates back towards the expected direction for the turn (ie. right for a right turn). During a turn you can use countersteering to either increase or decrease the lean angle and hence the turn radius.

Another interesting point in the article is a discussion of how "no hands" steering occurs, by using a weight shift to induce a countersteering action.

Also the engineers on KB might like a job at Imperial College, London (http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/controlandpower/research/portfoliopartnership/projects/motorcycles)!

jrandom
18th January 2008, 23:00
Cool paper! Makes good intuitive sense.

So, centrifugal force, not gyroscopic, eh?

I can live with that.

I did leave the office with a niggling feeling that I should probably have done some back-of-envelope checking on my strident assertions vis-a-vis the importance of the spinning masses involved.

Sometimes the simplest explanation really is the correct one.

<img src="http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/centrifugal_force.png"/>

Deano
18th January 2008, 23:11
yourself...and I...will get together...and methodically do an experiment or 20...I will provide the bike...and we will approch all this from every angle we can..and then do a theasis and post it on KB...along with how every test was conducted.

keen?

Countersteering is a myth perpetuated by half wits, trying to pull the chain of the uninformed. Don't believe it - you'll crash.

Conversely, when the front end is shaking it's head off through the undulating twisties, it pays to be leaning over the front wheel while countersteering or you might get a nasty case of the slappers.

Deano
18th January 2008, 23:13
<img src="http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/centrifugal_force.png"/>

That's BS - a Suzuki Centrifuge could never crush James Bond.

Deano
18th January 2008, 23:15
to put it very very basically he goes left on lefts, right on rights

What about straights ? Do they go down or does that depend on their sexual orientation ?

justsomeguy
18th January 2008, 23:17
Best countersteering moment - pushing and pulling with both hands at the kink on the back straight of Puke :D All the other corners are lean angle moments......

Just ride the damn bike and it will come to ya. Or go to the RRRS course - search the site to find what that means.

justsomeguy
18th January 2008, 23:18
What about straights ? Do they go down or does that depend on their sexual orientation ?

Look at us sad fecks talking about countersteering on a Fri night.....:bash:

Deano
18th January 2008, 23:21
Best countersteering moment - pushing and pulling with both hands at the kink on the back straight of Puke :D All the other corners are lean angle moments......
.

Did you miss the apex or run wide ? Or were you doing 400KPH ?

Two hand steering is for the Taka's bro. (or tighter corners than 'the kink')

Deano
18th January 2008, 23:22
Look at us sad fecks talking about countersteering on a Fri night.....:bash:

So sad I had to take the piss...lol

Patch
19th January 2008, 04:38
. . . . . . . . . . .. . . . .. . .. . .. . .. . . . .. . . . .. . and "contact patch".

why?? don't bring me into this lame cock contest. Good ole Frosty had good intentions but you sad fukkers had to turn it into sumthin else didn't ya,




pack of sad littl' fukkers

MacD
19th January 2008, 05:56
So, centrifugal force, not gyroscopic, eh?



Excellent cartoon, I was wondering if anybody was going to question the centrifugal force aspect!?

Anyhow, Frosty's original point is a good one. Even if people intuitively use passive countersteering to turn, practicing it helps reinforce it as an active technique for getting around those "oh crap" corners and for avoiding objects on the road.


why?? don't bring me into this lame cock contest. Good ole Frosty had good intentions but you sad fukkers had to turn it into sumthin else didn't ya,


Some people like to understand why things work, rather than just accepting dogma, sorry if that offends. :rolleyes:

cowpoos
19th January 2008, 10:30
So sad I had to take the piss...lol
hows the hangover this morning? lol

justsomeguy
19th January 2008, 18:27
Did you miss the apex or run wide ? Or were you doing 400KPH ?

Two hand steering is for the Taka's bro. (or tighter corners than 'the kink')

270 indicated - never got out of Castrol nicely enough to get any more speed and 270+ on a 600 is tough without more room. Use two hands as it makes the bike feel more stable to me, I must be doing something wrong then as I've only every used two hands for higher speeds, pushing with one hand has been enough all around Taupo....only been on the Takas once and they are scary

MSTRS
20th January 2008, 09:15
....only been on the Takas once and they are scary

That depends on the weather. And whether you can countersteer well. Or not.
In the case of the 'Takas, countersteering refers to the necessity of steering counter to the wind in order to stay on the tarry stuff.

discotex
20th January 2008, 11:08
Cool paper! Makes good intuitive sense.


So does that mean the bet is off? :dodge:

90s
21st January 2008, 12:28
Excellent cartoon, I was wondering if anybody was going to question the centrifugal force aspect!?

Probably not, because there is no such thing as centrifugal force - just acceleration. The only thing that would stop Bond accelerating in a straight line is that he is being prevented.
The evil-if-badly-drawn villian is the zealot, making unecessary complications to an elegant system in order to preserve the illusion. Can we short-hand the force of acceleration under certain conditions as centrifugal? Why not? Is it a useful fiction? Sure. Is it correct? No, but not much is when we really examine it.

Probably the most boring post I've ever written - tough competition too.

scrivy
22nd January 2008, 16:10
to put it very very basically he goes left on lefts, right on rights

Unless you're a swinger on an LCR at Wanganui.......:pinch:

Jorja
22nd January 2008, 16:14
Ahh so thats what he had me practicing. Yay I can countersteer.:clap:

Kickaha
22nd January 2008, 19:40
Unless you're a swinger on an LCR at Wanganui.......:pinch:

In that case I think you fall on your arse:whistle:

McDuck
22nd January 2008, 21:53
Bumping for a thread in the new bikers....

McDuck
22nd January 2008, 21:55
Link link link

McDuck
22nd January 2008, 21:55
ooops http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1392629#post1392629

scrivy
23rd January 2008, 07:27
In that case I think you fall on your arse:whistle:

What about the esses at Wangy Kick??? How many swingers on long bikes didn't swing out for the left??? Lazy buggars!!!! :gob:

Hitcher
23rd January 2008, 07:41
Bumping for a thread in the new bikers...

Well done. Some others would have started a new one...

GSVR
23rd January 2008, 10:30
Maybe someone could quote the parts of this thread I should be reading as I've gone over it twice and really haven't found any advice good bad or indifferent.

It has rased a question for me. Why do you have to be travelling over a certain speed before countersteering comes into effect? Would it not have more to do with how tight a radius the turn your about to turn?
Signed Slow Learner.

My advice is dont ride to close to the edge or you wont be able to turn in because countersteering involves turning in the opposie direction to the corner and if theres no road left on the edge you'll go over the edge (Einsteins Theory of relativity to edges).

jrandom
23rd January 2008, 10:31
Why do you have to be travelling over a certain speed before countersteering comes into effect?

Gah!

Thud.

Ixion
23rd January 2008, 10:49
I'm so glad that I learned to ride before counter steering was invented. And as all my bikes are old (or chook chasers) they don't have counter steering fitted, so I don't have to worry about it. Much simpler.

GSVR
23rd January 2008, 11:26
Gah!

Thud.

Is that what happens when you can't read?

jrandom
23rd January 2008, 11:29
Is that what happens when you can't read?

It's what happens when people don't use the search function (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=65152&highlight=centrifugal).

GSVR
23rd January 2008, 11:32
It's what happens when people don't use the search function (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=65152&highlight=centrifugal).

What search function that just took me to one of Frostys ramblings?

jrandom
23rd January 2008, 11:38
What search function that just took me to one of Frostys ramblings?

Hey, there's some good shit in that thread; look for my posts!

;)

sidecar bob
23rd January 2008, 14:16
In that case I think you fall on your arse:whistle:

And your wrist & your ankle & your shoulder & your arm, Breaking most of them.

GSVR
23rd January 2008, 14:41
You'll hear other riders going on about countersteering and what it does.
Dunno about you lot but egghead types going on about gyro this or that gives me a headache.
Do ya really want to know what countersteerings all about?
Find a long straight quiet bit of road.
Ride up and down it slowly to make sure its clear of hazards.
Now staying towards the middle ride up the road at 50km/h. Pull back on the left bar and push on the right bar gently. -so you are turning the front wheel to the LEFT
Now do the same again this time pull the right bar and push the left. so turning the wheel to the right
Which direction did the bike turn?
Congratulations you now know about countersteering -easy innnit ?

Yeah its easy alright but what about counter-countersteering. We've all done it probably most of us without even thinking about it. But should it really be refered to as steering?

Let me explain. You go into a corner at speed thinking its going to be alot tighter than it is or theres something in the way or maybe your just procrastinating or indecisive. So your've countersteered way to much and have to counter-countersteer to correct this. If you screw this manovure up you may even have to counter-counter-countersteer to correct or face information overload and countersteer off the road.

jrandom
23rd January 2008, 14:44
So your've countersteered... counter-countersteer... counter-counter-countersteer... countersteer off the road.

Gosh, all those counters, you'd almost want a counter counter to keep track of them...

GSVR
23rd January 2008, 15:30
Gosh, all those counters, you'd almost want a counter counter to keep track of them...

The real top riders like Rossi can countersteer up to so many levels mere mortals can only dream about. Like a supercomputer doing millions of counterstreering calculations a second.

BIHB@0610
23rd January 2008, 15:31
With all this talk about gyroscopes I'm reminded of my introduction to motorcycling .... I was assured that bikes were immeasurably safer than cars due to the two enormous safety features built into them - gyroscopes - that would ensure they remained upright "no matter what". I couldn't find these highly technical safety features no matter how hard I looked, let alone figure out how they worked ....... yes I was blonde as a child.

GSVR
23rd January 2008, 15:34
With all this talk about gyroscopes I'm reminded of my introduction to motorcycling .... I was assured that bikes were immeasurably safer than cars due to the two enormous safety features built into them - gyroscopes - that would ensure they remained upright "no matter what". I couldn't find these highly technical safety features no matter how hard I looked, let alone figure out how they worked ....... yes I was blonde as a child.

The gyroscope thing is all crap. The lighter your wheels are the better a bike is to steer. Gyroscopic effects are counterproductive to riding.

Top racebikes don't have carbon fibre rims fitted because they look good. As well as the lightness making the bike turn better they accellerate and brake better with less moving mass.

sidecar bob
24th January 2008, 10:49
The gyroscope thing is all crap. The lighter your wheels are the better a bike is to steer. Gyroscopic effects are counterproductive to riding.

Top racebikes don't have carbon fibre rims fitted because they look good. As well as the lightness making the bike turn better they accellerate and brake better with less moving mass.

So i assume from that, that you have never ridden a 16 inch front wheel GSX1135EFE in anger then.

kiwifruit
24th January 2008, 11:13
counter

standing at the counter of the seven eleven
from a quarter past six to a quarter to seven
the manager bevan starts to abuse me
hey man i just want some muesli

_RC0DdrHbGg

GSVR
24th January 2008, 18:57
So i assume from that, that you have never ridden a 16 inch front wheel GSX1135EFE in anger then.

Are you inferring that a 16" front wheel generates less or more gyroscopic effects than a 16.5" or 17" or 21" front wheel does?

What about that huge crankshaft your making very angry by reving the shit out of. Maybe that doesn't want to move from its gyro axis. Those big old bikes did some funny things at high speed on sweeping corners and even straight bits of road..

sidecar bob
24th January 2008, 19:32
Are you inferring that a 16" front wheel generates less or more gyroscopic effects than a 16.5" or 17" or 21" front wheel does?

What about that huge crankshaft your making very angry by reving the shit out of. Maybe that doesn't want to move from its gyro axis. Those big old bikes did some funny things at high speed on sweeping corners and even straight bits of road..

Im inferring that the front end of those fuckers had a mind of their own, Ask Scrivy.
I followed him for many hard out kays, him on an EFE & me on a 19inch wheel Katana 1100, he was a one man freakshow, not that it ever slowed him down.

Ducman
24th January 2008, 19:35
The gyroscope thing is all crap. The lighter your wheels are the better a bike is to steer. Gyroscopic effects are counterproductive to riding.

Top racebikes don't have carbon fibre rims fitted because they look good. As well as the lightness making the bike turn better they accellerate and brake better with less moving mass.

If gyroscopic forces are crap how do explain how a "race bike" or any bike for that matter can lift the front wheel exiting a corner yet still hold it's line? It's not just the mass of a spinning object it's the speed it's spinning at. Less mass just means less effort is needed to change direction. Try holding a bicycle wheel by the axle and give it a spin, quite a force is needed to tip or lean the wheel over left or right.

Think of it this way, certrifugal precession means the input takes effect 90 degrees later in the direction of the spin. So, if you turn the handle bars right you are trying to move the back of the wheel to the left , the result 90 degrees later is the top of the wheel moves or leans left draging the rest of the bike with it.. easy!

GSVR
24th January 2008, 19:48
I say ban Youtube embedding.

GSVR
24th January 2008, 19:59
If gyroscopic forces are crap how do explain how a "race bike" or any bike for that matter can lift the front wheel exiting a corner yet still hold it's line? It's not just the mass of a spinning object it's the speed it's spinning at. Less mass just means less effort is needed to change direction. Try holding a bicycle wheel by the axle and give it a spin, quite a force is needed to tip or lean the wheel over left or right.

Think of it this way, certrifugal precession means the input takes effect 90 degrees later in the direction of the spin. So, if you turn the handle bars right you are trying to move the back of the wheel to the left , the result 90 degrees later is the top of the wheel moves or leans left draging the rest of the bike with it.. easy!

I don't wanna get into some long dragged out discussion on your beliefs on what holds your bike up. Whatever you say is ok by me. Just dont fall over.

So why did Yamaha reverse the rotation of the crankshaft on their MotoGP bike a few seasons ago? Reason I'm asking is because I truely don't know and you sound like you would know the answer.

GSVR
24th January 2008, 20:02
Im inferring that the front end of those fuckers had a mind of their own, Ask Scrivy.
I followed him for many hard out kays, him on an EFE & me on a 19inch wheel Katana 1100, he was a one man freakshow, not that it ever slowed him down.

So you talked about it and decided to go for something more stable with 3 wheels and now you guys are a two man freakshow?

sidecar bob
24th January 2008, 20:12
So you talked about it and decided to go for something more stable with 3 wheels and now you guys are a two man freakshow?

You know it!!! Like it says on our sidecar, "Bring On The Freakshow"

rwh
24th January 2008, 20:44
So why did Yamaha reverse the rotation of the crankshaft on their MotoGP bike a few seasons ago?

Hmm. I hadn't heard about that, but thinking for a moment, if you accelerate the engine backwards while accelerating the bike (and the wheels) forwards, you'll reduce the tendency to lift the front wheel. You'll also reduce the weight (and hence traction) on the rear, but I guess they've got enough.

Richard

GSVR
24th January 2008, 20:52
Hmm. I hadn't heard about that, but thinking for a moment, if you accelerate the engine backwards while accelerating the bike (and the wheels) forwards, you'll reduce the tendency to lift the front wheel. You'll also reduce the weight (and hence traction) on the rear, but I guess they've got enough.

Richard

Or maybe they just wanted to change from a geared primary drive to a chain driven one or viceversa. The direction the crankshaft rotates can't have that huge an effect on the handling of the bike. As I said I don't know.

jrandom
24th January 2008, 20:54
The direction the crankshaft rotates can't have that huge an effect on the handling of the bike.

Ever sat on a Rocket III and blipped the engine hard in neutral?

rwh
24th January 2008, 20:58
Ever sat on a Rocket III and blipped the engine hard in neutral?

Noticeable on a Guzzi or a BMW too (no I haven't tried the rocket).

Richard

90s
25th January 2008, 08:41
The gyroscope thing is all crap. The lighter your wheels are the better a bike is to steer. Gyroscopic effects are counterproductive to riding.

First this - a bike is gryoscopic forces. Controlling them is riding. How can they be counterproductive?


Top racebikes don't have carbon fibre rims fitted because they look good. As well as the lightness making the bike turn better they accellerate and brake better with less moving mass.

You are confusing wheel size and weight with the effects of sprung and unsprung mass. Lightening wheels often has the effect of reducing the unsprung mass - leading to the effects you describe. Reductions in sprung mass do not have nearly as much effect on handling, acceleration etc. Suspension placement and design is as important in this as anything else.

GSVR
25th January 2008, 12:01
First this - a bike is gryoscopic forces. Controlling them is riding. How can they be counterproductive?

Gyroscopic forces make steering heavier at higher speeds making a bike less manuvourable and flickable. Any reducion of these forces has to be an improvement on any performance motorcycle. Infact I would go so far as to say a bike without any gyroscopic forces (impossible) would handle best.

You are confusing wheel size and weight with the effects of sprung and unsprung mass. Lightening wheels often has the effect of reducing the unsprung mass - leading to the effects you describe.

OFTEN? Could you give me one example of when lightening a wheel doesn't have the effect of reducing unsprung mass?

Reductions in sprung mass do not have nearly as much effect on handling, acceleration etc. Suspension placement and design is as important in this as anything else.

Depends if its rotating mass or not? Reducing the mass of a flywheel or crankshaft can make a bike accelerate much more effectively and the reduction in gyroscopic effect will make the bike handle better as well.



Some of this I replied to just because I couldn't resist but it has nothing to do with the previous posts just like Rocket III's.

90s
25th January 2008, 13:07
Some of this I replied to just because I couldn't resist but it has nothing to do with the previous posts just like Rocket III's.

Well, it is the countersteering thread, which On-topic.

A bike without gryscopic forces is a sledge. It doesn't have wheels, which is why you say it is impossible. All forces resist change, ie inertia, so a heavier bike and wheels = more sluggish as you suggest, although the advantage of a bike over a sledge is you can use those forces to your advantage. In this quest, using gyros will probably be your best bet, minimising unsprung weight and excess weight elsewhere first.

Strange discussion this. No CS without gryros.
I would rather ride a bike than a sledge
(OT but did you know Murphy of Murpy's law fame might agree having been a rocket sledge tester?)

GSVR
25th January 2008, 13:21
Strange discussion this. No CS without gryros.
I would rather ride a bike than a sledge


I was thinking more along the lines of the less gyro effect the better a bike would steer so the closer you get to zero the better.

But since you brought up the sledge model have you seen those snow bikes?

Basically a bike with a ski on the back and front.(no gyro). How do these get steered going down the mountain at say 50KPH ? Well its not countersteering according to you?

Monsterbishi
25th January 2008, 18:04
I was thinking more along the lines of the less gyro effect the better a bike would steer so the closer you get to zero the better.

You're quite right here, it's the design principal behind the two counter rotating cranks of Motoczyz' prototype GP Bike engine.

MVnut
25th January 2008, 18:31
Noticeable on a Guzzi or a BMW too (no I haven't tried the rocket).

Richard

MGS 01 no balance shafts=fun fun fun

roogazza
25th January 2008, 18:46
So i assume from that, that you have never ridden a 16 inch front wheel GSX1135EFE in anger then.

yes , weren't they a prick of a thing ?

I really liked my 19 inch front wheel bikes, GSX1100 of 1980 and Mach 4 Kawasaki. Gaz.

discotex
31st January 2008, 17:07
You're quite right here, it's the design principal behind the two counter rotating cranks of Motoczyz' prototype GP Bike engine.

That and the crank/flywheels are spinning 90 degrees to the wheels.

I'd be interested to know what proportion of the gyroscopic stability is generated by the crank/flywheel vs the wheels on a standard bike at high RPM/speed.

Tall Learner
5th February 2008, 12:21
Excellent cartoon, .....question the centrifugal force aspect!?:


Ahhm sorry mista but unless ur an american there aint no such thing as centrifugal force. . . . .Its centrepital ACTUALLY :bleh:hahaha but wat sad fuk would notice that in a post???


Not me definatly...............

Il go crawl in a hole and study physics or sumthn hahaha

Roki_nz
5th February 2008, 22:10
Here is a simple method to understand (kinda) how counter steering works.

1. Find a broom stick (with no broom)
2. Place this on your finger
3. Move your finger to the left. Notice how when you move the bottom of the broomstick to the left the top moves to the right.

As i was told this is the same way your bike counter steers

The physics involved are the same at least

Roki_nz
5th February 2008, 22:22
Also look on you tube for counter steering
A guy under the name of 13mordeth has done a couple of videos on it and also has done plenty on how to ride a motorbike

scumdog
5th February 2008, 22:39
After a zillion years of riding I finally got countersteering - the overt typ - recently..

On entering a corner I push on the 'opposite' handle-bar, it's a kind of downwards rather than forwards push.

But the effect is to make the bike heel over on the side I want it to, handy if I've underestimated the tightness of the corner.....

The Stranger
5th February 2008, 22:52
Why do you have to be travelling over a certain speed before countersteering comes into effect?

Because your wheel must be acting as a gyroscope before counter steering will work.

Mort
5th February 2008, 22:58
Best way to see this in action is to hold a spinning bicycle wheel (not attatched to the bike)... try to turn the wheel left or right... it won't move easily. But if you give a little flick to the left or right it will instantly turn to the opposite direction.

California superbike teach this technique. Its used to turn the bike rapidly at the turn in point (best enabled with the hook-in technique). This means you can turn in later and still get the apex.

Its a great track technique ... a bit risky when used to extremis on the road I find...


:Playnice:

CookMySock
6th February 2008, 06:37
cough, the bottom line is, all this centripetal stuff is talk-on-the-cereal-box.

Noobs enter corners initially using small balance corrections and then with speed adjustments to maintain track - which is why they end up heading for the gravel with no lean on, when "they are too fast", or powering-up to try to stay wider. What they should be doing, is giving the bar a harder push and not getting a fright as they enter, but leaning into the corner which is seemingly impossible to them, as the bike "will not lean over" which is quite true - it wont lean on its own without a countersteer push, which seems against their intuition at that time.

Push the right bar FORWARD to make the bike begin to lean right. Do it a split second before you need it, and the bike will lay over smartly and enter a nice curve.

Practice on straight road at or around 100km/hr. Start with VERY gentle pushes and note your wheels under you dart left and right. Build up to firmer pushes. Trying this at speeds under 70km/hr is less effective, requires more bravery, and is not a good demonstration of the technique.

Try not moving your weight whatsoever, and entering a lean for a shallow corner using a push on the bar ONLY. Prepare to be amazed. Now ride everywhere using a bar push ONLY to steer and soon you will have it mastered.

With regard to leaning the rider - I do it slightly, only for one reason. I have some difficulty keeping my body aligned with the bike during cornering - I tend to want to sit up straight, so to pre-empt this I move my helmet to the turn-side of the the windscreen.. only a matter of 10-15cm. I don't, or rarely move my torso. Now it is easier to lay over with the bike when it turns.

Read the wikipedia article carefully.

disclaimer: only just learning to do this myself.

DB

Subike
6th February 2008, 06:58
over the past few weeks of reading this and other threads on late apexing corners, I have been practicing this, and have found that cornering has improved, to the point that most corners I can negotiate now, faster than the speed limit for the road, let alone the recomended corner speed.
As for the wheel size gyroscopic thingimagig, I run a 19" front, which is a whole heap harder to turn than a 16" front on my brothers bike.
And interestingly enough, my Xsessive's engine rotates "backwards" as well, as a person somewhere said, this is to reduce the possibilities of wheel stands.
Maybee this is correct, as I have yet to lift the front wheel.
Or am I just not giving it a big nuff handfull of ego.
Back to subject, countersteering, enjoying playing with it now.
Have been trying in on cage free straight roads at 100kph negotiation those little white cats eyes in the center of the roadas turn reference points. fun

Biggles08
6th February 2008, 07:35
cough, the bottom line is, all this centripetal stuff is talk-on-the-cereal-box.

Noobs enter corners initially using small balance corrections and then with speed adjustments to maintain track - which is why they end up heading for the gravel with no lean on, when "they are too fast", or powering-up to try to stay wider. What they should be doing, is giving the bar a harder push and not getting a fright as they enter, but leaning into the corner which is seemingly impossible to them, as the bike "will not lean over" which is quite true - it wont lean on its own without a countersteer push, which seems against their intuition at that time.

Push the right bar FORWARD to make the bike begin to lean right. Do it a split second before you need it, and the bike will lay over smartly and enter a nice curve.

Practice on straight road at or around 100km/hr. Start with VERY gentle pushes and note your wheels under you dart left and right. Build up to firmer pushes. Trying this at speeds under 70km/hr is less effective, requires more bravery, and is not a good demonstration of the technique.

Try not moving your weight whatsoever, and entering a lean for a shallow corner using a push on the bar ONLY. Prepare to be amazed. Now ride everywhere using a bar push ONLY to steer and soon you will have it mastered.

With regard to leaning the rider - I do it slightly, only for one reason. I have some difficulty keeping my body aligned with the bike during cornering - I tend to want to sit up straight, so to pre-empt this I move my helmet to the turn-side of the the windscreen.. only a matter of 10-15cm. I don't, or rarely move my torso. Now it is easier to lay over with the bike when it turns.

Read the wikipedia article carefully.

disclaimer: only just learning to do this myself.

DB

Very good post DangerousBastard, and you are indeed correct. One further point I would make is that once one feels comfortable with manipulating the handlebars in this manner it is actually quite important to correct your body position too. This is to insure you remain at least in a 'neutral' balance with the bike throughout the corner. This will greatly improve your ability to change your line quicker in any direction while set in a lean on the corner. In other words, if you tend to sit upright in a corner, in any small amount, you will find it harder to increase your turn circle if you've fucked it up and overcooked your entry speed (which a lot of noobs do - i did plenty of times). In this case, you would be at an advantage if your body was at least at the same lean angle as your bike...even advantaged more if your positively leaning into the corner. Some find it a difficult thing to master and a simple hint for people finding this the case is to simply 'drop' you shoulder in the direction of the corner. This will begin to position your body better for the corner.

I recommend that learning to manipulate the handlebars first before worrying about your body position is more important. This is so noobs don't get confused as to what is actually making then turn the corner...a lot of people think it is their body weight that turns a motorbike but this is bollocks (unlike push bikes which is more this way due to their light weight and slower speeds)...it is the bars (counter steering) that make your bike turn and you merely assist this with positioning your body correctly into a corner.

2fst4u
6th February 2008, 15:57
Ahhm sorry mista but unless ur an american there aint no such thing as centrifugal force. . . . .Its centrepital ACTUALLY :bleh:hahaha but wat sad fuk would notice that in a post???


Not me definatly...............

Il go crawl in a hole and study physics or sumthn hahaha

centripetal force is the reaction force of centrifugal force. if you swing a bucket full of water around, the force holding the water in is centrifugal but the force pushing back towards you keeping the rope (or your arm) taught is centripetal force. newtons 3rd law. every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

im not ashamed of my brilliance

The Pastor
6th February 2008, 16:04
Only bikes with USD forks can countersteer.

The Stranger
6th February 2008, 18:44
I was thinking more along the lines of the less gyro effect the better a bike would steer so the closer you get to zero the better.

But since you brought up the sledge model have you seen those snow bikes?

Basically a bike with a ski on the back and front.(no gyro). How do these get steered going down the mountain at say 50KPH ? Well its not countersteering according to you?

After a full review of all the material in this thread, I can say with absolute certainty that you are a complete tosser.
Why is it that you feel the need to pontificate on subjects you obviously know nothing about?

discotex
7th February 2008, 18:31
over the past few weeks of reading this and other threads on late apexing corners, I have been practicing this, and have found that cornering has improved, to the point that most corners I can negotiate now, faster than the speed limit for the road, let alone the recomended corner speed.

:first: bling duly awarded.

You deserve a prize for trying it yourself and finding it makes you a better rider.

Who says no-one listens to advice on KB (good/bad or otherwise) ;)

GSVR
7th February 2008, 19:48
After a full review of all the material in this thread, I can say with absolute certainty that you are a complete tosser.
Why is it that you feel the need to pontificate on subjects you obviously know nothing about?



Glad you didn't have anything to argue that anything I said has been incorrect as your attitude has saved me the time.

Bikes do not hold their line wheelstanding out of corners due to spinning front wheels. Anyone who thinks about the physics can figue that out.

CookMySock
7th February 2008, 21:03
Hokay,

I can do this countersteering thing, but I'm feeling pretty frustrated as it is STILL taking large amounts of rehearsing each corner as I approach them, and if I don't mentally rehearse them, I find myself running out of road on the outside of the corner going for my brakes - returning to my old ways again.

I have been practicing this for a few weeks now, and I feel like I'm missing something - not getting it at all. My speed through corners has increased though.. I was chickenshit scared to lean the bike before, but I'm still hitting some sort of mental block.

How do I get past this ? or am I being to impatient and hard on myself ? Just let it come ?


TIA,
DB

Subike
7th February 2008, 21:08
in my opinion
if you are running out of road, practicing
then get off the road
Im not being sarcastic
Find an large empty carpark and spend a few hourd ridding around in ever decreasing circles, thinking about what you are doing, what the bike is doing, which gear you are in, where the thottle is........feel everything
As you continue to do this, you will find yourself getting faster withoot effort.
A far safer place than on th open roadways to practice,
A tennis court is all you need for room, and 1/2 doze coke bottles
Enjoy, its acually good safe fun as well, cause you can practice braking as well in safty

Gubb
7th February 2008, 21:13
Since my opinion is obviously so offensive to some people, i'll just remove it.

I'm more than happy to be corrected if I get something wrong, i'm still learning. But to call me a fucktard because of it? A little over the top.

Maki
7th February 2008, 21:17
Maybe you should learn to ride a bicycle first, one with no engine except your legs.

Ocean1
7th February 2008, 21:23
Hokay,

I can do this countersteering thing, but I'm feeling pretty frustrated as it is STILL taking large amounts of rehearsing each corner as I approach them, and if I don't mentally rehearse them, I find myself running out of road on the outside of the corner going for my brakes - returning to my old ways again.

I have been practicing this for a few weeks now, and I feel like I'm missing something - not getting it at all. My speed through corners has increased though.. I was chickenshit scared to lean the bike before, but I'm still hitting some sort of mental block.

How do I get past this ? or am I being to impatient and hard on myself ? Just let it come ?


TIA,
DB

If you’re successfully negotiating corners at all then you are countersteering, can’t be done otherwise. It’s such an intuitive thing that it’s easy to over-analyse though. Sounds to me like your real problem is a fear of leaning too far. Join the club, everyone has a limit at which panic threatens to overcome better judgement.

By all means drill the routine into your head, but if you put yourself under too much pressure you will panic, and then all the technique goes out the window, that’s likely why you’re running wide. Get your entry speed down to the point you’re totally comfortable with and practice your drills there. The corner speed will come naturally, don’t push it.

One other thing about low entry speeds, it means you can roll onto the throttle early, like before the apex. Most bikes are more stable and smoother under power through a corner, they’re designed to stick best with a rear weight bias. Also, the power helps stand the bike up as you come out of the curve. Practice slow, build confidence, the speed will come, promise.

Katman
7th February 2008, 21:27
Hokay,

I find myself running out of road on the outside of the corner going for my brakes - returning to my old ways again.



My speed through corners has increased though.


I would seriously suggest you decrease your speed until you get comfortable with your cornering.

Try not to think too much about the countersteering. As long as you are aware of and understand the concept of countersteering you'll find that you're doing it sub-consciously.

dipshit
7th February 2008, 21:29
Look where you want to go. Look for your turn-in point... look for your apex.. and look for your exit. Relax and look at the line you want to take and the bike should follow. The countersteering should become a subconscious thing. Concentrate on visualising your line.

Also I would suggest a slow in fast out approach. Turning-in and apexing a wee bit later will help avoid that running wide feeling if taking more of a classic line.

karla
7th February 2008, 21:30
I thought I had counter steering sussed, but then I lost it and couldn't work out what was up; I was feeling really disappointed. A friend pointed out that I was looking too close in front of me at corners, down at the road instead of way ahead of me. Once I started looking ahead again and letting the bike do the work (trust your bike!) my cornering improved. But best suggestions I've had have been posted here already - practice on the track (or around a roundabout) and go back to riding a bicycle to work out what is going on. Have I done either? No ... at least not yet ... :rolleyes:

karla
7th February 2008, 21:32
Look where you want to go. Look for your turn-in point... look for your apex.. and look for your exit. Relax and look at the line you want to take and the bike should follow. The countersteering should become a subconscious thing. Concentrate on visualising your line.

Also I would suggest a slow in fast out approach. Turning-in and apexing a wee bit later will help avoid that running wide feeling if taking more of a classic line.

Great minds think alike - lol ~

babyblade250rr
7th February 2008, 21:40
easiest way i found learning how to counter steer a sports bike was going round and round in circles in the local high school carpark or doing figures eights in a carkpark just take it easy and just adjust the amount of pressure on the bars ever so slightly till you get a feel of how the bike reacts given the amount of "push" also a big factor to steering is using your body weight into the direction your turning, if you have a good set of tyres you will be amaized at how little tyre surface needs to be connected to the road to stay vertical, i would suggest michelin pilot powers great traction,

but give it time it will come to you, in a sence it's like learning to walk practice makes perfect.


all the best with it anyhow

babyblade250rr
7th February 2008, 21:41
Look where you want to go. Look for your turn-in point... look for your apex.. and look for your exit. Relax and look at the line you want to take and the bike should follow. The countersteering should become a subconscious thing. Concentrate on visualising your line.

Also I would suggest a slow in fast out approach. Turning-in and apexing a wee bit later will help avoid that running wide feeling if taking more of a classic line.


This is also very good advice!

xwhatsit
7th February 2008, 21:43
Mate, if your feeling that uncomfortable about it, don't do it on the road.

This is what Track Days are for. From what I understand, Counter steering is more suited to the Track, rather than an unpredictable road anyway. Just stay safe.

Horse-shit. One of the best techniques to have under your belt for road-riding. Blind corner, starts to tighten up? Easy, push on the bar a little more to tighten your line. Rock falls off the back of a trailer right in front of you? Use counter-steering to quickly swerve around it.

Unpredictable road -- that's why it's so useful.

Macktheknife
7th February 2008, 21:45
Mate, if your feeling that uncomfortable about it, don't do it on the road.

This is what Track Days are for. From what I understand, Counter steering is more suited to the Track, rather than an unpredictable road anyway. Just stay safe.

No offence mate, but you must have been misinformed, countersteering is an essential skill of any riding, on the road, track or anywhere really.

You are correct about getting more comfortable off the road though, as others have said, practice in a carpark. You could get in touch with an experienced rider in your area to help give you some pointers, always a good thing. It is also worth going to a Ride Right, Ride Safe course if you can travel to one somewhere near you.

Take your time, relax, this will help. Focus more on being smooth and taking good lines around the corners, this is a good way to improve your skills and roadcraft in general.
Remember, when it comes to corners, "in like a lamb- out like a lion" it's much better than the other way around.
ride safe.
Mack

madmal64
7th February 2008, 21:49
I wouldnt sweat it too much. Try not to over think it. I suggest concentrating on the corner more than countersteering. Remember that you are going to go go where your eyes are looking so do what others have suggested.
Here is a great video explaining the principal anyway.
Theres plenty of these around but I find this one is really good at explaining the idea
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxM_GU7W-dE

dipshit
7th February 2008, 22:06
A friend pointed out that I was looking too close in front of me at corners, down at the road instead of way ahead of me. Once I started looking ahead again and letting the bike do the work (trust your bike!) my cornering improved.

Arrr... lesson number 2. Visualising your points on the road like turn-in and apexes... but then knowing when to be looking further through the corner and down the road or next corner so you can join it all up into one nice big flowing line. The higher the speed, the more ahead you need to be visualising.

puddytat
7th February 2008, 22:20
Maybe your overdoing "it"? Try like the others say somewhere safe,but if your pushing that insidearm to hard youll head straight...eg, on my old bike active countersteering was what was required to get her cornering nicely,whereas on the R6 its the opposite & has taken me quite a while to get over the old habits & to counter with virtually no pressure. The ole girl was a straight arm type of counter whereas the R6 is bent elbow tippin' in,& a wee bit of counter to hold her there. All bikes are different Id say....& trust your rubber

Grub
7th February 2008, 22:28
I can do this countersteering thing, but I'm feeling pretty frustrated as it is STILL taking large amounts of rehearsing each corner as I approach them, .. {snip}

Don't worry, you may be a "natural" rider and this counter-steering culture is stuffing you around.

Have a look at a different view in this thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1416427#post1416427) and see if it makes more sense for you and your riding style.

Ixion
7th February 2008, 22:32
Hm. I see you are on a 650. So I'm not sure if you are really a learner , or (looking at your age) a 'returner'.

When I learned to ride , countersteering hadn't been invented. So no one did it. We just shoved the bike into the corner and leaned it over.

And since then most of my bike were old ones, that didn't have the counter-steering attachment. So I just kept on shoving the bike into the corner and cranking it over.

Then I got a more modern bike, so I had to learn how to counter steer. And I found that it was just a fancy-nancy way of saying 'shove the bike into the corner and crank it over'

So, if you are a 'returner' , you may find the same thing - if you're getting through the corner at a decentish rate, your doing it right. Trying to over analyse it and apply some theoretical concept on every corner just stuffs up y' head.

CaMo
7th February 2008, 22:40
I wouldnt sweat it too much. Try not to over think it. I suggest concentrating on the corner more than countersteering. Remember that you are going to go go where your eyes are looking so do what others have suggested.
Here is a great video explaining the principal anyway.
Theres plenty of these around but I find this one is really good at explaining the idea
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxM_GU7W-dE

haha I like how that guy is doing all that and there is snow and shit all round him. Roads don't look that flash :)

The Stranger
7th February 2008, 23:07
And this is your contribution lol.

Yes it is. It helps to clarify for anyone else reading this thread and getting as confused as you, as to how and why countersteering works, that all your posts on the subject should be ignored as you really haven't a clue.

GSVR
8th February 2008, 00:28
Because your wheel must be acting as a gyroscope before counter steering will work.

You really don't understand do you.

http://www.skibiker.net/id33.html

How does one counter steer a bike without wheels then?

GSVR
8th February 2008, 00:37
Because your wheel must be acting as a gyroscope before counter steering will work.

You really don't understand do you.

http://www.skibiker.net/id33.html

How does one counter steer a bike without wheels then? And read the steering info on that link before replying please!
You may want to research outtracking as well (simple explaination of dynamics of turning a bike at speed)

As far as I'm concerned the first post on this thread is all riders need to know.

If you ride a motorbike you countersteer. Its not something new but the way its waffled on about here would have you think its something not all riders do.

The Stranger
8th February 2008, 00:47
You really don't understand do you.

http://www.skibiker.net/id33.html

How does one counter steer a bike without wheels then?

What the fuck are you smoking?
Sorry mr troll, you will have to do better than that.

GSVR
8th February 2008, 00:49
What the fuck are you smoking?
Sorry mr troll, you will have to do better than that.

Are you incapable of creating a constructive post?

Gubb
8th February 2008, 06:12
Horse-shit. One of the best techniques to have under your belt for road-riding. Blind corner, starts to tighten up? Easy, push on the bar a little more to tighten your line. Rock falls off the back of a trailer right in front of you? Use counter-steering to quickly swerve around it.

Unpredictable road -- that's why it's so useful.

That's why I said "From what I understand".. I'm new to this as well...

No need to jump down my throat.

Maki
8th February 2008, 06:24
Countersteering is a zen like thing. It should not be analyzed or even thought of. Just ride the bike, look where you want to go and the bike will go there.

limbimtimwim
8th February 2008, 06:27
Hokay, I can do this countersteering thing, but I'm feeling pretty frustrated as it is STILL taking large amounts of rehearsing each corner as I approach them, and if I don't mentally rehearse them, I find myself running out of road on the outside of the corner going for my brakes - returning to my old ways again.It's simple.

Look where you want to go
Look where you want to go
Look where you want to go

Just keep saying it to yourself as you come up to a corner.

You doing regular panic reaction, you are looking at the outside of the corner going 'fuck, I don't want to go into the wrong lane!!' and putting on the brakes which only makes turning more difficult.

Look where you want to go
Look where you want to go
Look where you want to go

Unless you are doing triple the speed indicated on the speed advisory sign (If any) you will make it around the corner.

One more thing, perhaps you are beginning to turn into the corner a little early? On turning left, stay close to the centreline as possible for as long as you can (Work your way up to 'as late as you dare'). And reverse for turning right. Turning in to early often results in what you describe. I used to do it. I'm sure nearly everyone did it.

Drew
8th February 2008, 06:33
Countersteering is a zen like thing. It should not be analyzed or even thought of. Just ride the bike, look where you want to go and the bike will go there.

Best answer yet.

Dont think about it at all, it wont help.

CookMySock
8th February 2008, 06:37
ok thanks fellas, and girls. :cool: Yeah I am a returner on the biggest bike I have ever ridden. I'm not afraid of the bike - I just have never dealt with high-speed cornering a sport bike before. I have more than just the countersteering basics - I can do it well, but I am feeling frustrated with my lack of progress, and lack of nuts executing it.

So, don't hurry the learning process, trust the bike and its rubber, visualise my line, slow down, get the basics off the road (already done), michelin tyres rock, leaning - get some nads and get past it.

So I'm not paniccing under pressure - its more when I'm not watching or coasting with brain in neutral, so maybe I will have to ditch my gaze-into-space cager thinking and quit gazing into space and ride the damn bike??

I tried apexing corners and so on, and that increased my road speed (dangerous, not what I need?) but it didn't help me learn any faster, so now I am trying to stay within my half-lane - usually I stick to the RHS and maintain my exact position vigilantly using countersteer pushes. I don't need speed (yet!) for now I need discipline, accuracy, and mindset... and experience.

Might head to rotovegas this afternoon and evening for a lime and soda. Say hi ok! Red Hyosung, Blue helmet. Lake front.

Steve

CookMySock
8th February 2008, 06:44
haha I like how that guy is doing all that and there is snow and shit all round him. Roads don't look that flash :)haha yeah thats plain scary. He has nads tho - hez acting like its just not there..

DB

limbimtimwim
8th February 2008, 06:49
... position vigilantly using countersteer pushes. Stop doing it on purpose. Nothing will ever work if you try too hard. Really, please.

Remember chasing that girl? Trying too hard didn't work.
Playing a musical instrument? Trying too hard didn't work.

Good luck and enjoy yourself.

karla
8th February 2008, 06:55
haha yeah thats plain scary. He has nads tho - hez acting like its just not there..

DB

~pondering~
Maybe it's a little different riding in the winter in the States, as they put salt on the roads. I dunno ... am just guessing, maybe someone here has had some experience with that? ops, offtopic ..

CookMySock
8th February 2008, 07:04
Stop doing it on purpose. Nothing will ever work if you try too hard. Really, please.ok ok. :nono: Will take a break from "teaching" myself so intently.

I once had a paragliding instructor, who was completely unable to give me a concise description on how to do ANYTHING. According to him, it was all about how you held your tongue, and how I should go "mmmmmm, zen". When we asked a straight forward question, he would describe the required actions as "something like this - and wave his arms in the air". He was vastly skilled and experienced which was ubundantly clear to us noobs, but we never learned anything from him coz we never GOT TOLD HOW TO FUCKING DO ANYTHING.


Remember chasing that girl? Trying too hard didn't work.cough, can we not go there ? lol


Good luck and enjoy yourself.thank you, yeh

DB

Crisis management
8th February 2008, 07:22
ok ok. :nono: Will take a break from "teaching" myself so intently.



You're getting the idea now.........

Look, it's supposed to be fun, go out and pootle around at whatever speed you're comfortable with and just enjoy riding a bike in the sunshine.

As Ixion & Ocean1 points out, there is too much information and analysis available now, bikes are really simple, they fall over when stopped so you need to keep moving to not fall off. Thats all you have to do.

You'll find there is a time when you can comfortably push yourself up a notch, you'll be ready for it when the idea of trying something new is exhilarating rather than frightening.

Enjoy today.

The Stranger
8th February 2008, 08:07
Are you incapable of creating a constructive post?

Sure I am, however you are impervious to logic so it would futile of me to engage you in a logical discussion.

The Stranger
8th February 2008, 08:42
As far as I'm concerned the first post on this thread is all riders need to know.

If you ride a motorbike you countersteer. Its not something new but the way its waffled on about here would have you think its something not all riders do.

Did your research bring you to this conclusion?
Mine is somewhat different.
Very few understand countersteering and its applications. Few will instinctively contersteer an obstacle. Very few will use it say when setting up for a corner.
During the RRRS course we send bikes at a person in the middle of a lane, all they have to do is countersteer left or right when indicated by the person. Perhaps 1 in 30 manages to get this right first time. Of course they have been countersteering for ages right, so that is all they need to know aye. We see a very big cross section of riders from total noobs to riders with 40yrs experience.

Ok, I shall try and keep it simple for you - there are more complex and accurate explanations.
Take your bike out of the garage and keeping it vertical push it along the driveway, now push on the left bar, which way does it go? Mine will go to the right, does yours? Now straighten it up and whilst still pushing it, let go of the bars. What happens? The bike falls over. Why? No gyroscope to keep it up is there?

Now repair your bike, don your gear and get ready for the next exercise.
Accelerate to 50kph, push on the left bar, which way does the bike go? Mine goes to the left this time, wow, that's different. Now straighten up, sit squarely on the bike and let go of the bars, what happens, nothing much, you decelerate a bit, but the bike doesn't fall over. What's changed from the first exercise that could account for these changes? That's right, both your front and rear wheels are acting as a gyroscope.

See a pattern?

Usarka
8th February 2008, 08:56
Bikes do not hold their line wheelstanding out of corners due to spinning front wheels. Anyone who thinks about the physics can figue that out.
My understanding is that a spinning front wheel very much helps the stability in a wheelie. Anyone who can actually wheelie long enough to know care to confirm this?

jrandom
8th February 2008, 08:58
That's right, both your front and rear wheels are acting as a gyroscope.

A thought experiment.

Would something with similar characteristics to a motorcycle, but without any spinning masses (say, a single-bladed sled propelled along the snow by a jet engine - bear with me here, it's just a thought experiment) be harder to balance upright?

Without any spinning wheels to act as gyroscopes, would keeping such a contraption balanced upright at 100kph be just as difficult as keeping it balanced upright at a standstill?

Badjelly
8th February 2008, 09:08
When I learned to ride , countersteering hadn't been invented. So no one did it. We just shoved the bike into the corner and leaned it over.

...

Then I got a more modern bike, so I had to learn how to counter steer. And I found that it was just a fancy-nancy way of saying 'shove the bike into the corner and crank it over'

Actually, I invented countersteering (though admittedly I may not have been the first). It was in 1975 or so, and I noticed that when riding my Suzuki GT250 that I was working the handlebars more than I had with my previous bikes. The GT250 had somewhat odd steering, actually, it felt like it was a large bike from the steering head forward and a small bike behind that...or something like that. Anyway, I explained it to motorcycling friends, "You push on the inside bar to tip the bike into the corner, and on the outside bar to pull it out". And they all said, "You bloody idiot, if you do that you'll fall off. Everyone knows you steer bikes by leaning them."

Some time much later, I was happy to learn that what I had discovered had a name: countersteering. By the way, does anyone know when that term became widely used?

My current bike, a Scorpio, also has somewhat odd steering, in my opinion, though I can't put my finger on it exactly. The front wheel seems to want to fall into bends at round-town speeds. It's more noticeable when the tire pressures are down, but still there when they're correct. When I started riding it never seemed to go exactly where I expected around a corner. Again I find myself doing more steering with the handlebars and with a firm hand it gopes where I want.

All this is a long-winded way of agreeing with Ixion: countersteering is just a fancy way of describing what most motorcyclists do naturally (while in some cases strenuously denying it). Thinking consciously about it *might* help you ride a bike better, but *might* get you confused. It depends on the bike, the tire pressure and profiles, and on whether you're an analytical or instinctive person.

The Stranger
8th February 2008, 09:15
A thought experiment.

Would something with similar characteristics to a motorcycle, but without any spinning masses (say, a single-bladed sled propelled along the snow by a jet engine - bear with me here, it's just a thought experiment) be harder to balance upright?

Without any spinning wheels to act as gyroscopes, would keeping such a contraption balanced upright at 100kph be just as difficult as keeping it balanced upright at a standstill?

I give up?
Though I would guess it would gain stability from the snow rushing beneath the blade of the sled - similar to a water skier.

jrandom
8th February 2008, 09:23
I give up?
Though I would guess it would gain stability from the snow rushing beneath the blade of the sled - similar to a water skier.

Yes, I'm honestly not sure, but intuitively I suspect that speed would give such a setup additional stability.

The question is whether, and if so by how much, a motorcycle gains further stability from its spinning bits.

If the abovementioned further stability is negligible, then all witterings about gyroscopes in rider training could be squashed, and cornering would simply become a matter of weight transfer plus centrifugal (yeah yeah, centripetal, whatever) force.

Plus, of course, either turning the front wheel out of the corner to aid the bike in rolling over to one side, ie 'countersteering' (at high speed, where centrifugal force tends to overcome weight transfer) or turning into the corner to prevent it from doing so (at low speed, where centrifugal force is negligible and weight transfer tends to just make the bike fall over).

Obviously a bicycle or motorcycle at rest will always tend to fall toward the back of the front wheel when the front wheel is turned; that has nothing to do with gyroscopes.

My suspicion is that the true physics of the situation tend more toward my comments above than to a model with a large gyroscopic force component, but I don't have the familiarity or the tools to work it out properly.

GSVR
8th February 2008, 09:27
My understanding is that a spinning front wheel very much helps the stability in a wheelie. Anyone who can actually wheelie long enough to know care to confirm this?

Yes the spinning wheel does help as any of the big wheelie guys on here will confirm.

GSVR
8th February 2008, 09:28
Did your research bring you to this conclusion?
Mine is somewhat different.
Very few understand countersteering and its applications. Few will instinctively contersteer an obstacle. Very few will use it say when setting up for a corner.
During the RRRS course we send bikes at a person in the middle of a lane, all they have to do is countersteer left or right when indicated by the person. Perhaps 1 in 30 manages to get this right first time. Of course they have been countersteering for ages right, so that is all they need to know aye. We see a very big cross section of riders from total noobs to riders with 40yrs experience.

Ok, I shall try and keep it simple for you - there are more complex and accurate explanations.
Take your bike out of the garage and keeping it vertical push it along the driveway, now push on the left bar, which way does it go? Mine will go to the right, does yours? Now straighten it up and whilst still pushing it, let go of the bars. What happens? The bike falls over. Why? No gyroscope to keep it up is there?

Now repair your bike, don your gear and get ready for the next exercise.
Accelerate to 50kph, push on the left bar, which way does the bike go? Mine goes to the left this time, wow, that's different. Now straighten up, sit squarely on the bike and let go of the bars, what happens, nothing much, you decelerate a bit, but the bike doesn't fall over. What's changed from the first exercise that could account for these changes? That's right, both your front and rear wheels are acting as a gyroscope.

See a pattern?

Where we differ is our veiws of what makes a bike tip into a corner.

The faster you go the less input is needed eg at 50kph you may turn the bars 1 degree for 0.3 of a sec to get the bike leaned x amount of degrees. At 100kph to achieve the same x amount you might input 1 degree for 0.15 or 0.5 a degree for for the same 0.3 of a second.

When in the corner you have two main forces acting gravity and the centripedal force pushing the bike to the outside of the corner. The resultant of these two forces is the plane the bike is operating in. If you where to ride a bike on the wall of death you would not have to countersteer to come down as there is already a force (gravity) naturally tipping the bike the way you want to go .

Like balancing a broom in your hand and your hand is the contact patch of your front wheel. Broom differs in the fact it doesn't have a rear wheel so you have to move in 2 axis.

To lean any bike you first turn in the opposite direction to where you want to go then as the bike falls ( or pivots about its COG) then you correct this by turning in the direction you are going. As you are cornering all you are doing is balancing the bike in the resultant force (force of gravity and the force pushing to to the outside of the corner). This happens at all speeds even on a pushbike.

CookMySock
8th February 2008, 09:30
haha, no really, your steering is actually connected backwards lol

edit: naw seriously, yes we all countersteer, but it's so easy to panic and straighten up when the going gets tough, or lean angle gets past our comfort zone.

It seems if I eyeball my "way out" of the corner it might all come to pass. But today, a break and relax and enjoy it. Then back to it hardcore!!

S

Usarka
8th February 2008, 09:32
Bikes do not hold their line wheelstanding out of corners due to spinning front wheels. Anyone who thinks about the physics can figue that out.


Yes the spinning wheel does help as any of the big wheelie guys on here will confirm.

huh?



To lean any bike you first turn in the opposite direction to where you want to go then as the bike falls ( or pivots about its COG) then you correct this by turning in the direction you are going.

When I'm u-turning at low speeds I turn the handle bars without countersteering which leans the bike. So much that I have to lean in the opposite direction to keep it upright.


Crack is only good for the short term, it all goes pear shaped pretty quick!

GSVR
8th February 2008, 09:42
huh?




When I'm u-turning at low speeds I turn the handle bars without countersteering which leans the bike. So much that I have to lean in the opposite direction to keep it upright.


Crack is only good for the short term, it all goes pear shaped pretty quick!

To the first to statements the bike would still hold its line if the front wheel stopped spinning. So the gyro guys will say its the back wheel holding the bike up? Good wheelie guys can also go around corners on the back wheel

When someone pulls a 3km wheelie the front does stop spinning and they do not fall over.


And to the last enter a few go slow races and get really good at it.

The Stranger
8th February 2008, 10:23
Where we differ is our veiws of what makes a bike tip into a corner.

Cut waffle

When in the corner you have two main forces acting gravity and the centripedal force pushing the bike to the outside of the corner. The resultant of these two forces is the plane the bike is operating in.

Cut even more wafle

To lean any bike you first turn in the opposite direction to where you want to go then as the bike falls ( or pivots about its COG) then you correct this by turning in the direction you are going. As you are cornering all you are doing is balancing the bike in the resultant force (force of gravity and the force pushing to to the outside of the corner). This happens at all speeds even on a pushbike.


Yes, it appears we do differ.
Wikipedia actually has a good explanation of what's going on for you, and I quote
"A gyroscope is a device for measuring or maintaining orientation, based on the principles of conservation of angular momentum. The device is a spinning wheel or disk whose axle is free to take any orientation. This orientation changes much less in response to a given external torque than it would without the large angular momentum associated with the gyroscope's high rate of spin."

And again

"The wheel responds to a force applied about the input axis by a reaction force about the output axis. The 3 axes are perpendicular, and this cross-axis response is the simple essence of the gyroscopic effect."

It is the cross axis response referred to above which causes the bike to tip in as a response to a force applied about the input axis.

centripedal force - is this similar to centripetal force? Again, from the source of all things true "centripetal force is the external force required to make a body follow a circular path at constant speed (speed being the magnitude of velocity). The force is directed inward, toward the center of the circle or "oriented toward the axis of rotation"; force which is directed outward is centrifugal force."
So remind me, what is the force you refer to above which, to quote you is "pushing the bike to the outside of the corner"?

GSVR
8th February 2008, 10:29
Yes, it appears we do differ.
Wikipedia actually has a good explanation of what's going on for you, and I quote
"A gyroscope is a device for measuring or maintaining orientation, based on the principles of conservation of angular momentum. The device is a spinning wheel or disk whose axle is free to take any orientation. This orientation changes much less in response to a given external torque than it would without the large angular momentum associated with the gyroscope's high rate of spin."

And again

"The wheel responds to a force applied about the input axis by a reaction force about the output axis. The 3 axes are perpendicular, and this cross-axis response is the simple essence of the gyroscopic effect."

It is the cross axis response referred to above which causes the bike to tip in as a response to a force applied about the input axis.

centripedal force - is this similar to centripetal force? Again, from the source of all things true "centripetal force is the external force required to make a body follow a circular path at constant speed (speed being the magnitude of velocity). The force is directed inward, toward the center of the circle or "oriented toward the axis of rotation"; force which is directed outward is centrifugal force."
So remind me, what is the force you refer to above which, to quote you is "pushing the bike to the outside of the corner"?

Sorry should of just not used the term Centrepedal sp centripedal. I've always called it centrifugal myself but theres always some smart type that wants to be pedantic.

I'm sure you understand the force I'm talking about (The one that wants to throw you off the roundabout)

OutForADuck
8th February 2008, 10:34
Dude concentrate on your lines and getting those right. Counter steering is something you should be aware of but its very hard to practice well until you are in a position to put some real effort into it. i.e. when you are building speed and riding a ligther bike counter steering is just too powerful and requires such small inputs to really get it.

But when you start to build speed and need to turn with a lot more agression the effort required is much more and counter steering becomes invaluable.

So practice your lines (in wide, out narrow, turn in point when you can see the exit, in most corners) threading one corner into another, building entry speed and suddenly one day you will find you need to turn the bike ALOT quicker and you'll start yanking on those bars with some gusto and wow... counter steering will make alot of sense.

CookMySock
8th February 2008, 11:12
Hey OutForADuck,


Dude concentrate on your lines and getting those right.Ok I have no problems with these. I can accurately choose whether my front tyre goes left or right of some tiny knobule on the road, even mid-corner. Mostly - but good enough for now. I can even counter-steer mid-corner and have brain power left to change gears. :clap: ...applause dies down. But it is still quite a mind warp just yet.


Counter steering is something you should be aware of but its very hard to practice well until you are in a position to put some real effort into it. i.e. when you are building speed and riding a ligther bike counter steering is just too powerful and requires such small inputs to really get it.Yes, this is where I am up to now.


But when you start to build speed and need to turn with a lot more agression the effort required is much more and counter steering becomes invaluable.Yes, this is the stage I am up to.


So practice your lines (in wide, out narrow, turn in point when you can see the exit, in most corners) threading one corner into another, building entry speed and suddenly one day you will find you need to turn the bike ALOT quicker and you'll start yanking on those bars with some gusto and wow... counter steering will make alot of sense.Yes, I can do this now, but I occasionally suffer brain farts during this - rapidly followed by moments of sheer terror, hard braking, rubber streaks on road, flat spotted tyres, so more apexing ala speed is not the answer.

It seems I should ;

a. don't be in such a hurry and let my experience consolidate over time

b. take time out to just slow down and enjoy the bike without going hard

c. concentrate on steering accuracy and let the experience build

d. slow down

e. look where I want to go, ie eyeball my exit.

f. stop gazing into space cager-style and watch what I'm doing


Off to Rotovegas this afternoon so time for a little practice, but otherwise just a quiet ride.


whew!
DB

Ocean1
8th February 2008, 11:18
It seems I should ;

a. don't be in such a hurry and let my experience consolidate over time, AND SLOW DOWN
b. take time out to just slow down and enjoy the bike without going hard, AND SLOW DOWN

c. concentrate on steering accuracy and let the experience build, AND SLOW DOWN

d. slow down, AND SLOW DOWN

e. look where I want to go, ie eyeball my exit., AND SLOW DOWN

f. stop gazing into space cager-style and watch what I'm doing, AND SLOW FUCKING DOWN


Off to Rotovegas this afternoon so time for a little practice, but otherwise just a quiet ride.


whew!
DB

If you're focusing on those wee pebbles and practicing "missing" them you're not looking far enough ahead, just be aware of them and keep your eyes up to where you want to be after the corner.

And SLOW FUCKING DOWN, if you're panicing at any stage through the turn your entry speeds are too high.

discotex
8th February 2008, 11:27
This thread has reminded me of two things.

1. How the physics of countersteering work is not important. The forces are real whatever causes them. Much like understanding hydrodynamics is not a requirement to operating a pleasure boat.

That countersteering is the only way to lean a bike moving at any significant pace is all you need to know.

2. Lay people debating physics always leads to :jerry:

GSVR
8th February 2008, 11:36
This thread has reminded me of two things.

1. How the physics of countersteering work is not important. The forces are real whatever causes them. Much like understanding hydrodynamics is not a requirement to operating a pleasure boat.

That countersteering is the only way to lean a bike moving at any significant pace is all you need to know.

2. Lay people debating physics always leads to :jerry:

Sounds good. The KISS approach works for me.

How the physics of countersteering work is very important but not to ride a bike.

CookMySock
8th February 2008, 12:24
If you're focusing on those wee pebbles and practicing "missing" them you're not looking far enough ahead, just be aware of them and keep your eyes up to where you want to be after the corner.Yes. Wilco roger dodger, Victor. Amen.


And SLOW FUCKING DOWN, if you're panicing at any stage through the turn your entry speeds are too high.Yup will do. Thanks for that. Let my experience build first. For a while. Quite a while. Gawd its tempting innit tho <_< o.O a car to pass!


DB

The Stranger
8th February 2008, 13:27
Sounds good. The KISS approach works for me.


Yes, I can see that.

GSVR
8th February 2008, 13:37
After a full review of all the material in this thread, I can say with absolute certainty that you are a complete tosser.
Why is it that you feel the need to pontificate on subjects you obviously know nothing about?


Yes it is. It helps to clarify for anyone else reading this thread and getting as confused as you, as to how and why countersteering works, that all your posts on the subject should be ignored as you really haven't a clue.


Yes, I can see that.

You'll never get any respect on here by abusing people. Why doesn't anyone take my skibike example and show me where its flawed.

Just throwing abuse because my logic doesn't fit in with your ideas makes me have a very low opinion of you as a person.

Blue Velvet
8th February 2008, 13:48
KISS


Yes

Get a room.

GSVR
8th February 2008, 13:55
Get a room.

If I started stalking you could we get a room?


Might as well post a link. Any Newbies if you want to learn about countersteering ...

http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/RS-cc1.htm

jrandom
8th February 2008, 13:55
KISS
Yes

:Punk:

<img src="http://i30.tinypic.com/35iu3qa.jpg"/>

discotex
8th February 2008, 18:21
haha yeah thats plain scary. He has nads tho - hez acting like its just not there..

DB

RideYourRide is the first vlogger I found. He's pretty funny. Mordeth13 is the other fav.

Riding along in one he's like "yeah you know this shit is real. I mean I could crash and die at any moment.. There'd be all these people thinking 'why the fuck has he got a camera in his face?' That'd be pretty funny... <laughs>"

CookMySock
9th February 2008, 07:40
Since my opinion is obviously so offensive to some people, i'll just remove it.

I'm more than happy to be corrected if I get something wrong, i'm still learning. But to call me a fucktard because of it? A little over the top.ok I'm sorry I neg rep'ed you ok ? I really wuz just fiddling with some forum feature that I just discovered, and the damn thing has bitten me on the arse really fucking bad actually. I know how hard it is to get by on a daily basis, and we all really just need a hand up and onwards, so heres mine, ok ?

C'mon lets get back to this sportsbike learning curve and just keep having fun.

I'm sorry.

Can we get this man a pie ?

Steve

CookMySock
9th February 2008, 07:42
You really don't understand do you.

http://www.skibiker.net/id33.html

How does one counter steer a bike without wheels then?BAHAHAHAHA hez got you there. lol.


DB

CookMySock
9th February 2008, 07:50
Yes the spinning wheel does help as any of the big wheelie guys on here will confirm.Can the wheelie boyz confirm that "during the wheelie, cranking the steering left and right gyroscopically moves the bike around?". (has been 20 years since I had the front wheel of anything up..)


DB

Zoolander
9th February 2008, 08:20
There are so many ways to try and explain how countersteering works, if anyone out there is a newbie rider and struggles to understand some of the more complex science behind it, try thinking of it this way: if you push on the right bar, you turn the wheel to the left. Because of the foward momentum of the bike you are actually "tripping" the bike so it will "fall" onto the right side of the front tyre. The side of the tyre is a smaller radius than the middle, so the wheel instantly tracks a tighter line, turning the bike right.

Sorry if somebody has already posted this, I didn't feel like scrolloing through 15 pages to find out.

But hope this is useful to somebody.

Dave.

The Stranger
9th February 2008, 08:31
You'll never get any respect on here by abusing people. Why doesn't anyone take my skibike example and show me where its flawed.


Because, unlike yourself, most people don't want to be drawn on subjects they know little about. Personally I have never ridden a skibike. Have you?
However, I suspect that the glaring clues to the issue liein the first paragraph on steering a skibike in the link you posted.

However discussion on the skibike with you is an exercise in futility as you are impervious to logic. You have a closed mind and are not prepared learn.



Just throwing abuse because my logic doesn't fit in with your ideas makes me have a very low opinion of you as a person.

Don't be silly, I am not throwing abuse because your logic (and I use the term loosely) doesn't fit in with mine. See my first post, I thow abuse because I get sick of twats sprouting shite on subjects they know nothing about.

Maha
9th February 2008, 08:33
However discussion on the skibike with you is an exercise in futility as you are impervious to logic.


You sound like Mr Spok!

Subike
9th February 2008, 08:37
There are so many ways to try and explain how countersteering works, if anyone out there is a newbie rider and struggles to understand some of the more complex science behind it, try thinking of it this way: if you push on the right bar, you turn the wheel to the left. Because of the foward momentum of the bike you are actually "tripping" the bike so it will "fall" onto the right side of the front tyre. The side of the tyre is a smaller radius than the middle, so the wheel instantly tracks a tighter line, turning the bike right.

Sorry if somebody has already posted this, I didn't feel like scrolloing through 15 pages to find out.

But hope this is useful to somebody.

Dave.


did I read that right?
where is the science in that ??????push the right - turn left
that will happen with any central pivot point steering

I think something is missing in that one:shit:

Zoolander
9th February 2008, 09:00
did I read that right?
where is the science in that ??????push the right - turn left
that will happen with any central pivot point steering

I think something is missing in that one:shit:

Not sure I get what you're saying here. Of course it will happen on any bike with central pivot steering. I'm just trying to break down the simple steps so newbies can understand exactly what happens during countersteering. I never said it was a scientific explanation!!

Ocean1
9th February 2008, 09:12
Can the wheelie boyz confirm that "during the wheelie, cranking the steering left and right gyroscopically moves the bike around?". (has been 20 years since I had the front wheel of anything up..)


DB

It does. But at the speeds I ride with one wheel briefly up the effect, while noticable and usefull, is minimal.

moT
9th February 2008, 09:25
Ok Heres a Question I know how countersterring works bla bla and you hang off with ur body as much as possible to get best turning and so on. I am haveing a few issues with this technique so if you dont know 100% for sure how to answer this plz dont try i dont want to hurt myself. So im in a corner leaning as much as i can, hanging off as much as i can. Going really hard and i want to "flick" the bike over into the next corner as fast as i can what is the best way to do this???

moT
9th February 2008, 09:31
i think i may be in the wrong thread

GSVR
9th February 2008, 09:37
Because, unlike yourself, most people don't want to be drawn on subjects they know little about. Personally I have never ridden a skibike. Have you?.
However, I suspect that the glaring clues to the issue liein the first paragraph on steering a skibike in the link you posted..

I love discussing interesting subjects especailly ones like motorcycle dynamics. If you think know everything on a subject why bother as you wont learn anything you don't already know.

So your calling the guy on the skibike link a lair when he writes about countersteering?




However discussion on the skibike with you is an exercise in futility as you are impervious to logic. You have a closed mind and are not prepared learn.

I actually think your set on your gyro model and don't want to accept any other theorys on the subject.
Roll a motorcycle tyre down a hill it stays upright due to gyrosopic precession. This same effect helps to keep a motorcycle upright but can also have negative effects on the handling.




Don't be silly, I am not throwing abuse because your logic (and I use the term loosely) doesn't fit in with mine. See my first post, I thow abuse because I get sick of twats sprouting shite on subjects they know nothing about.

You must abuse alot of people then. Maybe anger management.

CookMySock
9th February 2008, 09:40
[trim] So im in a corner leaning as much as i can, hanging off as much as i can. Going really hard and i want to "flick" the bike over into the next corner as fast as i can what is the best way to do this???Assuming you are originally laid over quite happily cornering to the right, then simply push on the opposite bar (left) and the bike will very smartly swap to the left. You will not need to "move your weight" in any manner whatsoever, and the technique is best demonstrated if you do not weightshift.

Instead of swapping from one lean to the other, try simply pushing on the left bar (assuming you are originally cornering to the right) as you exit from the turn, and watch the bike right itself with a snap. You will have such a grin on after you see this for the first time. It still makes me chuckle.

disclaimer: right in the middle of getting this correct myself
DB

GSVR
9th February 2008, 09:44
Ok Heres a Question I know how countersterring works bla bla and you hang off with ur body as much as possible to get best turning and so on. I am haveing a few issues with this technique so if you dont know 100% for sure how to answer this plz dont try i dont want to hurt myself. So im in a corner leaning as much as i can, hanging off as much as i can. Going really hard and i want to "flick" the bike over into the next corner as fast as i can what is the best way to do this???

To lift the bike back up from full lean your countersteering. Pushing on the right bar in a left turn to lift the bike upright and then over to turn right.

Only way to learn is by riding. If you want to get really agressive and fast at it the only good place is a trackday.

Top riders like in MotoGP can go from upright to full lean very quickly.

The Stranger
9th February 2008, 09:49
So your calling the guy on the skibike link a lair when he writes about countersteering?


This is pretty much the kind of "logic" I expect from you.



You must abuse alot of people then. Maybe anger management.


No, actually, you are one of the few, I tend to reserve it for the more serious cases.

GSVR
9th February 2008, 09:53
Might as well post a link. Any Newbies if you want to learn about countersteering ...

http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/RS-cc1.htm

Oh and this guys full of shit too.

Pixie
9th February 2008, 10:09
There are so many ways to try and explain how countersteering works, if anyone out there is a newbie rider and struggles to understand some of the more complex science behind it, try thinking of it this way: if you push on the right bar, you turn the wheel to the left. Because of the foward momentum of the bike you are actually "tripping" the bike so it will "fall" onto the right side of the front tyre. The side of the tyre is a smaller radius than the middle, so the wheel instantly tracks a tighter line, turning the bike right.

Sorry if somebody has already posted this, I didn't feel like scrolloing through 15 pages to find out.

But hope this is useful to somebody.

Dave.
You are absolutely correct.
A bike leans due to the forces against the side of the front tyre as it is moved off the bike's centre line by the steering geometry.
The degree and speed is related to the mechanical moment between the tyre contact patch and the bike's CoG.
Centrifigal effects of the wheels and other rotating masses have minor effects on road bikes and larger effects on racers.

If you dont believe me, make a jig to spin up the wheels of a bicycle while you sit on it at a standstill.Turn the steering and see if it leans - it won't.

Other wise a ski bike or the wet bike wouldn't work.

GSVR
9th February 2008, 10:21
Some people may be wondering as to why I have stated on this thread that the gyroscopic effect can have a negative effect on handling. Surely not as it helps keep the bike stable?

The faster you go the greater this force becomes. When you get up to very high speeds you would think (according to some other theorys on here that you could push against this great force and get your bike to lean faster into corners).

Well the faster you go the heavier your steering becomes and the harder it is to set your bike up for a corner. Your front wheel feels like it is alot heavier. This is becuase you a fighting against the gyroscopic effect.

Modern sportsbike wheels are made light for several reasons. One to make the suspension work better (less unsprung weight) but they are also lighter to reduce the gyro effect and make the bike more responsive at high speed.

Another design feature you will see is they are designed to keep as much weight as possible off the outside of the wheel. This is so the wheel takes less effort to acellerate but also its to reduce its gyroscopic effect.

I'm not posting on this thread anymore as I'm getting a bit bored with the subject now.

madandy
9th February 2008, 17:08
NOOB's.
Go do a Ride Right Ride Safe course - google it. Run by BRONZ. They will teach you what you need to safely get cracking.
Then attend a track day or three and talk with some people face to face and bike to bike.
There's far too much complicated horse shit in the latter pages of this thread to be of real value to any but the most technically humoured readers..

GSVR
9th February 2008, 17:42
http://rrrs.org.nz/index.html

If only heard good things about these courses. By all means do one as what you learn may save you from serious injury or even loss of life.

chanceyy
9th February 2008, 17:45
there will be a RRRS course in Palmy early April thread here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=66073)

kiwibryn
9th February 2008, 22:48
Only bikes with USD forks can countersteer.

:gob::rofl::scooter:

You ARE kidding, yeah?

CookMySock
10th February 2008, 05:25
:gob::rofl::scooter:

You ARE kidding, yeah?no he's not.. all the others you have to lean to make them steer. lol

Is anyone keen to help wikify this thread ?

DB - wiki junky

Badjelly
18th February 2008, 08:22
[Please ignore what I said]