Chick and guns [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 16:44

Today I am going to an army ball and there is a shooting range event which I am hoping to take part in. I have always had a fear of guns and at a logical level I know it is not the gun that causes the harm, it is the person who is using the gun but they still freak me out. I was wondering if anyone else has this irrational (in some peoples minds) fear of guns or if anyone on here is really into gun and can explain why the love shooting.

Usarka

19th January 2008, 16:49

Your chances of being shot increase exponentially when there is a gun nearby.

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 16:53

Luckily the guns don't have live ammunition but get what you are saying.

Your chances of being shot increase exponentially when there is a gun nearby.

fireball

19th January 2008, 17:10

i have no fear of guns, just respect there are ways to hold them and use them (just like err a man or woman?)

for me i love shooting because it helps with my co-ordination, having one eye has its disadvantages but its a skill and its fun!

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 17:14

Did you ever have a fear of guns? My friends who I am going with all shoot so I know that I am going to be looked after but I am still very apprehensive. A friend of mine who also hated guns did a chairty shoot and came back so pumped up it freaked her out.

I can see the co-ordination argument but what other skills does it help to improve? Sorry if I sound like a div.

i have no fear of guns, just respect there are ways to hold them and use them (just like err a man or woman?)

for me i love shooting because it helps with my co-ordination, having one eye has its disadvantages but its a skill and its fun!

deanohit

19th January 2008, 17:16

Like you say, it's not the guns, its the person holding it.
But even still, while I'm not afraid of guns, I do get a little thrill when I handle one. (I know, gun-nut!)
It's like seeing a hot looking fast bike, the potential is there for great harm unless you handle it right.

fireball

19th January 2008, 17:20

Did you ever have a fear of guns? My friends who I am going with all shoot so I know that I am going to be looked after but I am still very apprehensive. A friend of mine who also hated guns did a chairty shoot and came back so pumped up it freaked her out.

I can see the co-ordination argument but what other skills does it help to improve? Sorry if I sound like a div.

i dont think i ever had a fear of guns... grew up with them (like bikes) always had one, and started learning about them at a young age.
started instructing slug gun shooting a couple of years ago.

as deano said its all about the person using it, and the safety procedures you use.

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 17:21

So what is so thrilling about handling a gun? I know that bikes have the potential to cause harm but seeing a big sports bike only gives me the good butterfly feeling in the stomach it doesn't make want to run for the hills. I guess it might have something to do with not hearing a sportsbike and its rider killing numerous children in a school, if you get my drift.

Like you say, it's not the guns, its the person holding it.
But even still, while I'm not afraid of guns, I do get a little thrill when I handle one. (I know, gun-nut!)
It's like seeing a hot looking fast bike, the potential is there for great harm unless you handle it right.

maxworldbiker

19th January 2008, 17:23

This is a really good question. The gun debate rages on, around the world, and probably always will. I've grown up with guns, so they don't intimidate me at all and I have a few myself. For some people (even myself to an extent) there's something about the power felt by being in control of such a tiny little machine, to create total devastation with it if they choose to, without much physical effort. Thankfully most of us choose not to, and our fascination with guns is more about their actual capabilities, more than what we will realistically do with them! For me and my family its always been about the confidence you have (when you know how to operate your gun efficiently) in your ability to protect yourself against threat, the challenge of being able to go out and kill something wild to feed yourself if you need or want to, and keep pests under control in your environment.

Having said that, I really did enjoy playing with some of the hardware in my friend's arsenal while staying with him last year in the US. He lives in the dense woods of New Hampshire, where we didn't even CONSIDER wandering away from the house unarmed, especially at night, where bears and mountain lions routinely appear from out of nowhere, usually looking for food, and not particular about whether or not its human!

The AK47s were pretty good fun to play with, I have to admit, but there wasn't much thought of shooting anyone with them, except for maybe one particular kiwi shipping agent, but that's a whole 'nother story...

Hope the ball was fun.

deanohit

19th January 2008, 17:27

So what is so thrilling about handling a gun?

To tell you the truth, I don't know why it gives me a thrill, it's not a feeling of power or something stupid like that.
I am seriously nervous about travelling with my rifles as I have had some of my firearms stolen before (police said there was no fault on my part) and it's not some thing I want to go through again.

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 17:28

I am amazed at how many people on here seem to have grown up with guns, is there a particular reason for this? I grew up in the country but have never come across guns at all. In NZ is it more people who grow up on farms who are into guns?

It does make me feel better to hear that so many people have such sensible attitudes towards guns and thier usage.

This is a really good question. The gun debate rages on, around the world, and probably always will. I've grown up with guns, so they don't intimidate me at all and I have a few myself. For some people (even myself to an extent) there's something about the power felt by being in control of such a tiny little machine, to create devastation with it if they choose to without much physical effort. Thankfully most of us choose not to, and our fascination with guns is more about their actual capabilities, more than what we will realistically do with them! For me and my family its always been about the confidence you have (when you know how to operate your gun efficiently) in your ability to protect yourself against threat, feed yourself if you need or want to, and keep pests under control in your environment.

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 17:33

I always have wondered if there is a power, bad ass image to why some people start shooting. How did you get into shooting in the first place?

I can understand why you would not want to have your rifles pinched again but it is one of those things that you can't worry about too much. My car has the potential to be stolen and used for 'bad' things but I don't think about it or I would have sold it by now.

To tell you the truth, I don't know why it gives me a thrill, it's not a feeling of power or something stupid like that.
I am seriously nervous about travelling with my rifles as I have had some of my firearms stolen before (police said there was no fault on my part) and it's not some thing I want to go through again.

deanohit

19th January 2008, 17:39

I always have wondered if there is a power, bad ass image to why some people start shooting. How did you get into shooting in the first place?

I got into shooting because of hunting with family and mates, now I would rather shoot at a target as I like the feeling of skill when I shoot a tight group, but I do still hunt occaisionally.

sAsLEX

19th January 2008, 17:42

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 17:44

maxworldbiker

19th January 2008, 17:44

I guess there are some people out there who like the bad-ass image. Most kiwis who grew up on farms are used to guns as we have really HUGE farms out here, with wide open spaces, and where a gun is just good insurance against any number of hazards, and also to call attention if needed. We also have a serious rabbit problem out here. Me, my step brother and my Dad once shot two thousand rabbits in the space of a weekend on one farmer's land. For many years we also had a big wild deer problem, so gun usage was a good way of dealing with that, and as for the havoc-creating possums? We'll it's just common sense to shoot those.

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 17:45

But you are mad, everyone knows that. And I know we Brits have a hell of a lot to answer to when it come to NZ!!

Its the bloody rabbits you introduced! They require shooting!

No, I dont have a fear of weapons.... handy considering my occupation!

maxworldbiker

19th January 2008, 17:48

Wild Pigs are prevalent in the forest areas around where I live, and anyone who shoots them is doing us all a huge favour. God help us if they (the porkies) become too much of a problem...

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 17:49

I can understand this but as a fluffy animal loving Brit the thought of people shooting rabbits n deer freaks me. My granddad used to hunt/poach rabbits for food, luckily he only ever got me into fishing!! I am amazed that you shot so many rabbit, God you really do have a huge problem. I had never thought of using a gun to call attention.

I guess there are some people out there who like the bad-ass image. Most kiwis who grew up on farms are used to guns as we have really HUGE farms out here, with wide open spaces, and where a gun is just good insurance against any number of hazards, and also to call attention if needed. We also have a serious rabbit problem out here. Me, my step brother and my Dad once shot two thousand rabbits in the space of a weekend on one farmer's land. For many years we also had a big wild deer problem, so gun usage was a good way of dealing with that, and as for the havoc-creating possums? We'll it's just common sense to shoot those.

maxworldbiker

19th January 2008, 17:51

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 17:57

I guess coming from the UK I can't appreciate so much space. So have you ever had a bad experience whilst using a gun?

If you're on, say, a thousand hectare farm, on horseback, miles from the homestead (and a lot of those places don't get cell phone reception), if you can't rely on your dogs to go get help if you're injured or in danger, your gun can save your life just by firing it into nowhere, as long as somebody back at the house hears it.

scumdog

19th January 2008, 18:06

Your chances of being shot increase exponentially when there is a gun nearby.

Sorta the way with binning is more likely if a motorcycle nearby.

MVnut

19th January 2008, 18:10

I have always had an affinity with weapons but they are to be respected. I certainly don't believe it is right that everyone should be allowed to carry arms, (even tho the US Constitution has good reason for this) as some people are simply too irresponsible. I think if you are scared of guns, there is nothing wrong with that, but if you can overcome your fears, go and enjoy some supervised target shooting, maybe you will become more relaxed about them. I now only would think about shooting for food or to kill a pest. I gave up sport shooting for my own very good reasons. If you want to try other weapons there are plenty to choose from.

sAsLEX

19th January 2008, 18:11

Your chances of being shot increase exponentially when there is a gun nearby.

Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership per capita ratios in the world.

How much gun crime do they have with more guns being about?

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 18:16

I am a great believer in facing fear and I am tackiling them one at a time. I guess the fact that my friends are in the army or OTs makes me feel a little safer. I know that they would hate for anything to freak me out and make me fear guns even more. For me shooting for target practice doesn't seem as bad as shooting pests but I guess that maybe because of where I have grown up. But then again the though of shooting foxes is better than bloody b*stards on horses chasing them.

I have always loved the idea of archery, that doesn't freak me for some reason. As I said fears can be very illogical and I am female too (just jossin)!!

I have always had an affinity with weapons but they are to be respected. I certainly don't believe it is right that everyone should be allowed to carry arms, (even tho the US Constitution has good reason for this) as some people are simply too irresponsible. I think if you are scared of guns, there is nothing wrong with that, but if you can overcome your fears, go and enjoy some supervised target shooting, maybe you will become more relaxed about them. I now only would think about shooting for food or to kill a pest. I gave up sport shooting for my own very good reasons. If you want to try other weapons there are plenty to choose from.

scumdog

19th January 2008, 18:17

So what is so thrilling about handling a gun? I know that bikes have the potential to cause harm but seeing a big sports bike only gives me the good butterfly feeling in the stomach it doesn't make want to run for the hills. I guess it might have something to do with not hearing a sportsbike and its rider killing numerous children in a school, if you get my drift.
The same 'thrill' that riding a motorbike gives you.

Both are enjoyable if you like that sort of thing.

And the UK and it's firearm laws? (Which Alpers and other dicks think are the way to go)
Total ban on pistol ownership, really restrictive laws re rifle ownership.

1998-1999: - 864 firearm deaths and injuries.

jump to:

2005-2006: - 3,821 firearm deaths and injuries.

4-times the problem in about seven years.

So tough gun laws really work....pfft!! :shutup:

MVnut

19th January 2008, 18:21

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 18:23

I don't think I said to ban guns at all. What worries me is them getting into the wrong hands; look at the US.

I will let you know about the thrill compared to riding a motorbike once I have held a gun and fired it. But don't think anything will ever rival a bike; love scuba diving and diving with sharks but that has never come close to the feeling of being on a bike.

The same 'thrill' that riding a motorbike gives you.

Both are enjoyable if you like that sort of thing.

And the UK and it's firearm laws? (Which Alpers and other dicks think are the way to go)
Total ban on pistol ownership, really restrictive laws re rifle ownership.

1998-1999: - 864 firearm deaths and injuries.

jump to:

2005-2006: - 3,821 firearm deaths and injuries.

4-times the problem in about seven years.

So tough gun laws really work....pfft!! :shutup:

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 18:26

So aiming weapons at things really is in your blood then. Bet you look good in tights!!

Not sure if we have an archery group at uni, should look into it. Sure would beat the hell out of watching crap on tv. But how would a skinny minny like me fair?

Archery is a great sport, I still have a bow handed down for centuries (Sherwood Forest days) I probably wore green back in another lifetime (explains why I love Kawasakis):niceone:

MVnut

19th January 2008, 18:32

So aiming weapons at things really is in your blood then. Bet you look good in tights!!

Not sure if we have an archery group at uni, should look into it. Sure would beat the hell out of watching crap on tv. But how would a skinny minny like me fair?

Me in tights hahaha ( mind you I went thru the Aviation Security checkpoint the other day with no metal etc & set off the alarm. Lovely AvSec lady said it must be my 'buns of steel') but Archery is about technique and timing, 'Skinny' is just fine. Crossbows are great too, and swords, knives, bullwhips, blowguns etc etc etc.

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 18:45

My God if I hadn't chatted with you on other topics you would have freaked the crap out of me now!!

I must admit there is something interesting about crossbows too, but even they are becoming dangerously useful as weapons here too. A bike shop owner got shot in the stomach by one the other day!! Swords especially Japanese crafted ones and ceremonial knives fascinate me. My dad got given a ghurkas knife for teaching him to read n write or something and it is beatiful. Really love Middle Eastern ceremonial knives too.

Me in tights hahaha ( mind you I went thru the Aviation Security checkpoint the other day with no metal etc & set off the alarm. Lovely AvSec lady said it must be my 'buns of steel') but Archery is about technique and timing, 'Skinny' is just fine. Crossbows are great too, and swords, knives, bullwhips, blowguns etc etc etc.

maxworldbiker

19th January 2008, 18:50

I guess coming from the UK I can't appreciate so much space. So have you ever had a bad experience whilst using a gun?

Erm, yes I did. Once. Stupidly I once let an air rifle go off unaimed and the pellet ricocheted off the concrete floor of the garage and up the side of my friend's nose. He was unhurt, thank God it wasn't his eye!!. I was only fifteen at the time, but BOY did I learn from that mistake!!!!

My Dad also shot a possum on top of one of our water tanks one night in such a way that the damn thing ended up IN the tank, instead of falling neatly off the side as planned. Big drama, sorting that one out! It was only our bloody drinking water tank!

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 19:02

How did you friend not get hurt? That sounds very painful and he was lucky it didn't go any further up. Guess you were lucky it wasn't a more severe lesson.

Eek possum in drinking water does not sound good at all.

Erm, yes I did. Once. Stupidly I once let an air rifle go off unaimed and the pellet ricocheted off the concrete floor of the garage and up the side of my friend's nose. He was unhurt, thank God it wasn't his eye!!. I was only fifteen at the time, but BOY did I learn from that mistake!!!!

My Dad also shot a possum on top of one of our water tanks one night in such a way that the damn thing ended up IN the tank, instead of falling neatly off the side as planned. Big drama, sorting that one out! It was only our bloody drinking water tank!

MVnut

19th January 2008, 19:02

Only bad gun experience I had was when we were culling feral goats and I took one from across a ravine, it fell onto a ledge from the cliff ( instead of down to the beach) & my mate made me climb 30m down the face to cut the legs off for dog tucka,that was scary, about another 70m down to the sand if I slipped, yeehah.

MVnut

19th January 2008, 19:05

Bullwhips and Parents don't go well together either. Got banned from playing at my mates place for weeks after one little incident. I think we were 11 or 12years old (young n innocent)

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 19:15

Ouch, so you really are not a safe person to be around!! I seem to be able to injure myself quite nicely without the aid of serious weaponry maybe this is why I am worried about being given a gun to use.

Why would you want to go down to a ledge to get legs off a goat, do you not have dog food in NZ?

Bullwhips and Parents don't go well together either. Got banned from playing at my mates place for weeks after one little incident. I think we were 11 or 12years old (young n innocent)

MVnut

19th January 2008, 19:32

Ouch, so you really are not a safe person to be around!! I seem to be able to injure myself quite nicely without the aid of serious weaponry maybe this is why I am worried about being given a gun to use.

Why would you want to go down to a ledge to get legs off a goat, do you not have dog food in NZ?

Even feral goats are good food for dogs and I don't agree with wasting life, so to speak. A bit of danger is good for you anyway. As for the bullwhip, they're perfectly safe if you're good enough.

jrandom

19th January 2008, 19:57

sAsLEX

19th January 2008, 20:01

Guns are awesome. I can't stop thinking about guns. Guns are cool; and by cool, I mean totally sweet.

Guns can kill anyone they want! Guns blow off heads ALL the time and don't even think twice about it. Guns are so crazy and awesome that they flip out ALL the time. I heard that there was this gun that was eating at a diner. And when some dude dropped a spoon the gun killed the whole town. My friend Mark said that he saw a gun totally shoot some kid just because the kid opened a window.

And that's what I call REAL Ultimate Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads ALL the time and don't even think twice about it. These guys are so crazy and awesome that they flip out ALL the time. I heard that there was this ninja who was eating at a diner. And when some dude dropped a spoon the ninja killed the whole town. My friend Mark said that he saw a ninja totally uppercut some kid just because the kid opened a window.

Nice misquote J

Swoop

19th January 2008, 20:08

I guess that not many people in the UK hunt as we haven't got the same pest issues that you guys have. ...deer are not a pest here and we love them.
You were made quite familiar with the Tui beer adverts when here?

Deer are a large pest in UK at the moment. Since the draconian gun laws over there, there has been far less hunting and the deer numbers have grown significantly.
There are gubbinment proposals to send in cullers to reduce the numbers.

Good ole' politicians sticking their oar in the water and fucking things up again.
Luckily there is zero gun-crime in London! (Tui again?):laugh:

MVnut

19th January 2008, 20:27

Tui, good ol kiwi beer.........and NONE of the Tui girls are kiwis:doh:

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 20:45

Is a crap hole n gun crime is the least of its worries.

Most politicians wouldn't know their arse from their elbow. But as for deer, lots of them are on private land and God forbid you should hit one with your car as you will have to pay the land owner for replacing his deer. Don't think the politicians would be stupid enough to take on the gentry landowners!!

You were made quite familiar with the Tui beer adverts when here?

Deer are a large pest in UK at the moment. Since the draconian gun laws over there, there has been far less hunting and the deer numbers have grown significantly.
There are gubbinment proposals to send in cullers to reduce the numbers.

Good ole' politicians sticking their oar in the water and fucking things up again.
Luckily there is zero gun-crime in London! (Tui again?):laugh:

geoffm

19th January 2008, 20:46

There are a number of Poms in the gun club who are here mainly due to the pistol confiscations in the UK a few years ago. Th econfiscations didn't do anyhting for crime - handgun crime is higher now than before they were all illegal - no surprise really - but it palyed well with Sun readers.
When you come back
NZ has a high gun ownership rate - around 250,000 licensed gun owners, around 1 million guns (legal). There are also an unknown number of illegal guns, owned by people who wouldn't get a gun license as having previous form generally means you won't get one.
There are a lot of women shooters - -it is one sport where gender differences don't count.
I have a takedown 22 I bought to fit in the BMW saddlebags for rabbit shooting in the South Island on holiday.
If you are back in NZ again, there are plenty of KB shooters who would be happy to take you out to the range.
Geoff

Bikernereid

19th January 2008, 20:53

I am hoping to move to NZ by the end of the year so would love to be taken shooting, that is if I don't freak myself silly this afternoon. I love trying new things and facing ones fears has always been important to me.

As for gun laws it is the same as most other laws people will always break them. Look atv the stupid drugs laws in the UK and how many people love their Class A, B & Cs.

As for The Sun don't get me started in that bloody moronic, innane, vaccuous, purile piece of shite!!

There are a number of Poms in the gun club who are here mainly due to the pistol confiscations in the UK a few years ago. Th econfiscations didn't do anyhting for crime - handgun crime is higher now than before they were all illegal - no surprise really - but it palyed well with Sun readers.
When you come back
NZ has a high gun ownership rate - around 250,000 licensed gun owners, around 1 million guns (legal). There are also an unknown number of illegal guns, owned by people who wouldn't get a gun license as having previous form generally means you won't get one.
There are a lot of women shooters - -it is one sport where gender differences don't count.
I have a takedown 22 I bought to fit in the BMW saddlebags for rabbit shooting in the South Island on holiday.
If you are back in NZ again, there are plenty of KB shooters who would be happy to take you out to the range.
Geoff

owner

19th January 2008, 20:57

Guns are neither big nor clever!

sAsLEX

19th January 2008, 20:59

Guns are neither big nor clever!

Burnouts on the other hand........:first:

Hamel

19th January 2008, 21:32

Guns are like bikes in that if you don't know what you're doing and and you're not careful, its Bye Bye Bikern1mpho or Bridget or Lisa or whatever your name is.
Thus if you treat them with due respect, no problemo.
Basically its all in your head...
Have fun.:2guns:

Mr Merde

19th January 2008, 22:00

I have been shooting guns most of my life.

Grew up as an army brat and learnt a respect for these items and the rules in handling them.

What's the reason I like shooting?

Very hard to explain.

To me it is the skill of being able to do something as well as I can.

In the UK, darts are a very poular pub sport.

Shooting employs all the same skills but instead of muscle power to deliver the projectile I make use of the chemical reaction of burning gunpowder.

Dont tell me that my analogy is wrong as the game of darts has been derived from weapons of war also. From way back people have ben throwing things at each other.

I get a real thrill from accuracy and speed. not necessary together though.

I love it when I sit down with a rifle and look at a target that can be at distances so far away from me that they are just dots. I use all the skills I have learnt, I control my breathing, I settle my beating heart, I try to keep calm and collected. I look at the target, I check my sights, I gently squeeze the trigger and feel the recoil of the rifle in my arms. I check the target or have it checked for me. Elation if I have made a good shot, disappointment if not. Then i sit down and try and do it all over again, better if i can.

Most of the time I may be in competition but always I am going up against myself and my body's natural reactions.

Its a very hard thing to explain. Its not a sense of power, you can get that from a lot of different activities, its more a sense of personal achievment.

I've personally done military service and a few times I have been in the situation where I have had to use a fire arm on another human being. Its not a nice thing to do or remember. In all those cases I was doing a job and a firearm was just a tool of the job.

Nowadays I choose when I wish to shoot, what i wish to shoot and what I shoot at.

Trying hard to explain things here but dont really seem to be making much sense.

I'll post and bow out.

Merde

jrandom

19th January 2008, 22:02

Mr Merde

19th January 2008, 22:09

I think perhaps a photograph of my four-year-old son firing one of Mr Merde's eleventy-eek calibre single-action pistols loaded with blackpowder tomorrow morning will be in order for this thread.

:2thumbsup

Or even one of you letting loose with a lever action rifle, chambered for .44 mag, loaded with 35 gns of blackpowder under a 205 gn soft lead projectile.

Or maybe a 12 guage lever action shotgun with 70 gns by vol of BP with 1 1/8 oz of #7 shot.

Every one knows that shooting a pistol, with their limited range, is far more dangerous tha shooting a .308 rifle with an effective range of 8 times the pistol, and therefore those powers who rule us have decided we can only use the former on approved ranges and under strict controls whereas we can find any old piece of land and let loose with anything we like as long as it is a longarm. :2thumbsup:whistle:

jrandom

19th January 2008, 22:20

Every one knows that shooting a pistol, with their limited range, is far more dangerous tha shooting a .308 rifle with an effective range of 8 times the pistol, and therefore those powers who rule us have decided we can only use the former on approved ranges and under strict controls whereas we can find any old piece of land and let loose with anything we like as long as it is a longarm. :2thumbsup:whistle:

Ah, yes, of course. My Steinlager-addled brain momentarily afflicted me with amnesia regarding such legitimate safety considerations.

We shall naturally limit ourselves to photographing the young fellow within the bounds of the law as he fires an automatic 30-calibre battle rifle.

Mr Merde

19th January 2008, 22:31

Ah, yes, of course. My Steinlager-addled brain momentarily afflicted me with amnesia regarding such legitimate safety considerations.

We shall naturally limit ourselves to photographing the young fellow within the bounds of the law as he fires an automatic 30-calibre battle rifle.

Dont you mean a SEMI automatic battle rifle. Though we are allowed to collect fully automatic weapons in working order it is once again deemed improper to actually experience the use of these unless you are in the armed services.

jrandom

19th January 2008, 22:40

Dont you mean a SEMI automatic battle rifle.

I prefer to use the term 'automatic' to describe any weapon that loads its next round ready to fire after discharging without any user intervention beyond the trigger press. I'm aware of the convention of prepending 'fully' or 'semi', but in conversation I tend to drop them.

There is also the consideration that the Norinco M305 is an exact copy of the original M-14. My omission of 'semi' was not entirely due to syntactical laziness.

:devil2:

Mr Merde

19th January 2008, 22:44

I prefer to use the term 'automatic' to describe any weapon that loads its next round ready to fire after discharging without any user intervention beyond the trigger press. I'm aware of the convention of prepending 'fully' or 'semi', but in conversation I tend to drop them.

There is also the consideration that the Norinco M305 is an exact copy of the original M-14. My omission of 'semi' was not entirely due to syntactical laziness.

:devil2:

I stand suitably corrected in full understanding of your meaning.

MaxB

20th January 2008, 01:27

For mine its for hunting and pest control. Don't get to go out much these days and no longer have any firearms on the property. When I do go out (under instruction) its mainly for deer and we eat what we kill.

Firearms for me are a tool to do a job. Some of them beautifully made tools but tools nontheless. I think maybe we are closer to the land than most Brits (or even Aussies) these days. My kids have no doubt where their meat comes from.

Bikernereid

20th January 2008, 04:29

It was amazing, I have fired a Browning, LSW and A2 rifle and it rocked. I came second on the first round which was bloody amazing and came joint second on the second round, and no it wasn't out of two!!.

have got over fear of gun and think I have found a ne hobby. Thanks for advice and support, you were all right!!

Guns are neither big nor clever!

Bikernereid

20th January 2008, 04:31

Was all in my head but got over it now and love target shooting!!

Guns are like bikes in that if you don't know what you're doing and and you're not careful, its Bye Bye Bikern1mpho or Bridget or Lisa or whatever your name is.
Thus if you treat them with due respect, no problemo.
Basically its all in your head...
Have fun.:2guns:

Mr Merde

20th January 2008, 09:13

Was all in my head but got over it now and love target shooting!!

I hope you know now how hard it is to describe the reasons for shooting and the feelings that make you partake in the sport.

Especially to those who have had their minds made up for them by the mass media.

We are a minority and as such are very easy to demonise.

I only eat babies every second leap year and have no inclination to ever work in a post office.

Pixie

20th January 2008, 09:55

scumdog

20th January 2008, 10:58

I happened to watch a Brit TV show last night - "Jimmy's Farm".It's about some yuppie/hippy that moves from London to live in the country.
Anyway,He got all sad over having to shoot a fox that had killed over 200 of his chooks - dickhead:laugh:

I'm looking at 3 bunnies on my front lawn at the moment

Saw one of those types of show a week or so ago - you should have seen the looks on the faces of the city-slicker types when they realised what had to happend at the start of the process to convert a cute lamb into a piece of meat!!

Anyway, back on topic, glad you enjoyed the experience Bikern1mpho!!

Pixie

20th January 2008, 11:24

Swoop

20th January 2008, 15:14

Don't think the politicians would be stupid enough to take on the gentry landowners!!
I believe they did with fox hunting.

Glad you enjoyed your shooting! A challenging sport in many, and varied ways.

Think of the olympic biathlon event,where competitors cross country ski between targets and then control their breathing and heart rate to get off a good shot
That is a fabulous event! I found a brief thing on the Triangle TV the other day, with European winter in full swing and this competition is quite popular. The most stupid spectator can see what is happening...

I get disappointed when people say that "such and such" is a biathlon because it has two events (eg: run and cycle). They get confused when you ask them where the snow and guns are!!!

jrandom

20th January 2008, 20:55

We shall naturally limit ourselves to photographing the young fellow within the bounds of the law as he fires an automatic 30-calibre battle rifle.

As promised, here's number one son with Mr Merde's M1 carbine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine) today.

<img src="http://i25.tinypic.com/2zyziir.jpg"/>

He lined up his sight picture and squeezed the trigger like a pro. Probably would have happily plinked away all day if we'd kept loading magazines for him.

That's my boy!

:2thumbsup

Bikernereid

20th January 2008, 21:19

Yes most city folk are a little slow in regards to what goes on in the country and then tend to produce the kids that think milk comes from a supermarket!!

What would have been useful to know before hand from all you gun totting peeps is that for most shooting you have to be right-eyed :confused: I am left-eyed and found it incredibly difficult to focus right-eyes and found that I kep slipping into using my left eye. I think that if I am to continue with shooting and improve my capabilities I am going to have to find a means of re-training my visual processing.

If anyone has had he same experience and has overcome it please advise me as how best to do this.

Thanks for suppport guys, you rock.

Saw one of those types of show a week or so ago - you should have seen the looks on the faces of the city-slicker types when they realised what had to happend at the start of the process to convert a cute lamb into a piece of meat!!

Anyway, back on topic, glad you enjoyed the experience Bikern1mpho!!

Mr Merde

20th January 2008, 21:26

Yes most city folk are a little slow in regards to what goes on in the country and then tend to produce the kids that think milk comes from a supermarket!!

What would have been useful to know before hand from all you gun totting peeps is that for most shooting you have to be right-eyed :confused: I am left-eyed and found it incredibly difficult to focus right-eyes and found that I kep slipping into using my left eye. I think that if I am to continue with shooting and improve my capabilities I am going to have to find a means of re-training my visual processing.

If anyone has had he same experience and has overcome it please advise me as how best to do this.

Thanks for suppport guys, you rock.

If you are right handed and left eye dominant then this can be overcome quite easily.

Get yourself a pair of clear safety glasses and over the left lens tape a piece of plain white paper. This will allow light to enter both eyes but will block vision on the left. Thus you will be training your right eye to become dominant. Takes a little while but eventually you will not need the paper on the left lens as the right eye will have taken over.

SixPackBack

20th January 2008, 21:27

Yes most city folk are a little slow in regards to what goes on in the country and then tend to produce the kids that think milk comes from a supermarket!!

What would have been useful to know before hand from all you gun totting peeps is that for most shooting you have to be right-eyed :confused: I am left-eyed and found it incredibly difficult to focus right-eyes and found that I kep slipping into using my left eye. I think that if I am to continue with shooting and improve my capabilities I am going to have to find a means of re-training my visual processing.

If anyone has had he same experience and has overcome it please advise me as how best to do this.

Thanks for suppport guys, you rock.

You could of course buy a left eyed gun:wacko:........left hand bullets are more difficult to source, but hey anything for the cause!

Mr Merde

20th January 2008, 21:32

As promised, here's number one son with Mr Merde's M1 carbine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine) today.

http://i25.tinypic.com/2zyziir.jpg

He lined up his sight picture and squeezed the trigger like a pro. Probably would have happily plinked away all day if we'd kept loading magazines for him.

That's my boy!

:2thumbsup

It wa really good having you and your family out here today and the shooting was fun. loved your M14.

I'm glad you 4 year old son enjoyed shooting the rifle.

All you here who shoot target watch out I saw the beginings of a champion shot here, especially if enthusiasim is anything to go by.

Next time I will be much better prepared.

Bikernereid

20th January 2008, 21:33

Glad to see the wee nipper wearing them, one of the instructors fired the rifle on automatic and as someone who is not fond of loud noises I jumped out of my skin and felt like I was gonna have a heart attack. Got used to it eventually.

As promised, here's number one son with Mr Merde's M1 carbine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine) today.

<img src="http://i25.tinypic.com/2zyziir.jpg"/>

He lined up his sight picture and squeezed the trigger like a pro. Probably would have happily plinked away all day if we'd kept loading magazines for him.

That's my boy!

:2thumbsup

FilthyLuka

21st January 2008, 09:59

If you are right handed and left eye dominant then this can be overcome quite easily.

Get yourself a pair of clear safety glasses and over the left lens tape a piece of plain white paper. This will allow light to enter both eyes but will block vision on the left. Thus you will be training your right eye to become dominant. Takes a little while but eventually you will not need the paper on the left lens as the right eye will have taken over.

This trick works like a charm, used it for the first year of my target shooting, now it just comes natural. Just used some saftey glasses and some A4 sheet. Cut the paper, taped it on and just kept bringing the glasses to the range for training.

Bikernereid

21st January 2008, 22:54

Will give it a go. Does it not affect your driving/ riding etc?

This trick works like a charm, used it for the first year of my target shooting, now it just comes natural. Just used some saftey glasses and some A4 sheet. Cut the paper, taped it on and just kept bringing the glasses to the range for training.

MVnut

21st January 2008, 22:58

Bikernereid

21st January 2008, 23:15

Not too sure what you mean as I am new to all of this. I found that I was looking with both eyes and then trying to target with my right eye. Not natural at all and very wierd. I guess that practice will make better!!

I use both eyes to 'sight'

MVnut

21st January 2008, 23:42

That's only with 'open sights' ovbiously, not a scope.

howdamnhard

22nd January 2008, 00:12

Very well put maxworldbiker.I guess bikernympho,the excitement is that a firearm gives the user a sense of power.The initial fear/excitement comes from the knowledge that a firearm has great potential for destruction and is primarily a tool of destruction be it a paper target or animal.The first time I handled a gun was similiar to the first time I handled a snake,I was nervous and got the hand tremour.It seems an inbuilt,inherited survival trait to respect that which can cause harm.I like facing my fears and thus now like guns and snakes.The nervousness will go but the respect should never go as that is when things become dangerous.When you kill something , something in you dies. I got into guns primary for self defence and survival but now only for recreation(hunting).

This is a really good question. The gun debate rages on, around the world, and probably always will. I've grown up with guns, so they don't intimidate me at all and I have a few myself. For some people (even myself to an extent) there's something about the power felt by being in control of such a tiny little machine, to create total devastation with it if they choose to, without much physical effort. Thankfully most of us choose not to, and our fascination with guns is more about their actual capabilities, more than what we will realistically do with them! For me and my family its always been about the confidence you have (when you know how to operate your gun efficiently) in your ability to protect yourself against threat, the challenge of being able to go out and kill something wild to feed yourself if you need or want to, and keep pests under control in your environment.

Having said that, I really did enjoy playing with some of the hardware in my friend's arsenal while staying with him last year in the US. He lives in the dense woods of New Hampshire, where we didn't even CONSIDER wandering away from the house unarmed, especially at night, where bears and mountain lions routinely appear from out of nowhere, usually looking for food, and not particular about whether or not its human!

The AK47s were pretty good fun to play with, I have to admit, but there wasn't much thought of shooting anyone with them, except for maybe one particular kiwi shipping agent, but that's a whole 'nother story...

Hope the ball was fun.

howdamnhard

22nd January 2008, 00:20

Yes practice will help.;)My leading eye is my left but I'm right handed.You can close the left eye which will then force your brain to use your right eye. Or learn to shoot with your left hand ( most firearms are for righthanded use though).:blink:People say to keep both eyes open so that you can sight and see where you hit(more situational awareness).

Not too sure what you mean as I am new to all of this. I found that I was looking with both eyes and then trying to target with my right eye. Not natural at all and very wierd. I guess that practice will make better!!

Bikernereid

22nd January 2008, 03:02

All I was told by the army instructor was that the rifle I was using was for right-eyed people and that was that. I am right handed but can use my left so may see about learning to shoot left-handed. Who knows might be easier for me, wont know til I try. All advice very welcome.

Yes practice will help.;)My leading eye is my left but I'm right handed.You can close the left eye which will then force your brain to use your right eye. Or learn to shoot with your left hand ( most firearms are for righthanded use though).:blink:People say to keep both eyes open so that you can sight and see where you hit(more situational awareness).

FilthyLuka

22nd January 2008, 13:51

Will give it a go. Does it not affect your driving/ riding etc?

Oh! hehe, shoulda explained a bit better. You use SAFETY glasses, you know, the big clear plastic thingies? Then you tape over the left eye... You take of the safety glasses when you finish shooting :yes:

chris

22nd January 2008, 14:31

I came second on the first round and came joint second on the second round

Luckily the guns don't have live ammunition
Am I missing something?

Swoop

22nd January 2008, 14:51

This trick works like a charm, used it for the first year of my target shooting, now it just comes natural. Just used some saftey glasses and some A4 sheet. Cut the paper, taped it on and just kept bringing the glasses to the range for training.
It's less hassle just putting a few sticky patches, that you use for patching the holes in the targets, on the lens.
Black, white or brown patches are all white underneath! A bit of a fashion statement in some clubs.

Bikernereid

22nd January 2008, 15:01

I get that I was just wondering how changing your dominanat eye might affect other things that require your eyes!!

Oh! hehe, shoulda explained a bit better. You use SAFETY glasses, you know, the big clear plastic thingies? Then you tape over the left eye... You take of the safety glasses when you finish shooting :yes:

Bikernereid

22nd January 2008, 15:03

it is a special indoor target shooting set up that the Army use.

Am I missing something?

jrandom

22nd January 2008, 15:09

it is a special indoor target shooting set up that the Army use.

So you were not actually firing live full-power ammunition? Was it some kind of laser tagging setup?

Cool, so we still get to take your 30-calibre virginity when you get back!

:2thumbsup

A large part of shooting is dealing properly with the recoil and 140dBA percussion hitting your face - anyone can point and click, but doing it reliably and repeatably while you control your breathing and twitching muscles under the stress and strain and smell of a centerfire rifle going off a foot away from your ear and whacking you hard in the shoulder is what takes practice.

:niceone:

Don't even get me started on pistol shooting...

007XX

22nd January 2008, 15:13

it is a special indoor target shooting set up that the Army use.

Hey chick...sorry, can't be bothered reading the whole thread, but here is my 2 cents:

I'm not afraid of guns, and have never been. But I have had things that I have been really scared about, to the point of being frozen on the spot. For example, snowboarding...maybe the ambient temperature explained the frozen status, but anyway I diverge from my course...

It is all a matter of mind over matter...shooting is a heck of a lot of fun...just go and stay with someone you trust and who can teach you gently and slowly how to do it properly.
Keep reminding yourself to breath. When you are nervous, the first thing to go is your calm breathing. By forcing yourself to regulate it, you will concentrate less on how scared you are.

And if you really, really don't feel like doing it, then don't worry and let it be...it's not the end of the world.

Good luck!

PS: Oh and yes, I snowboard now, and I absolutely looooooove it! :niceone:

Bikernereid

22nd January 2008, 15:13

You can't take my virginity.....I am joining a gun club here so I can get some serious practice in before heading to NZ.

Believe me there was plenty of recoil and I have the sore shoulder to prove it. Painful experience!! And it was bloody noisey.

So you were not actually firing live full-power ammunition? Was it some kind of laser tagging setup?

Cool, so we still get to take your 30-calibre virginity when you get back!

:2thumbsup

A large part of shooting is dealing properly with the recoil and 140dBA percussion hitting your face - anyone can point and click, but doing it reliably and repeatably while you control your breathing and twitching muscles under the stress and strain and smell of a centerfire rifle going off a foot away from your ear and whacking you hard in the shoulder is what takes practice.

:niceone:

Don't even get me started on pistol shooting...

Bikernereid

22nd January 2008, 15:23

I did it n now I am a convert to the gun toting brigade. I still have a phobia which I am quite happy to keep but have slowly conquered most of my fears. OK still have one major fear that of my mother but she is one seriously kick ass lady!!

Glad you got into snowboarding and conquered you fear, hate it personally. I am a skiier and prefer to have two legs that work independent as God designed us!! But each to their own and anyone developing and enjoying new skill should always be encourage and commended.

The nerves thing was a bit of an issue at first but the people keeping an eye on us were really good and helped to relax us gun virgins. After a while the adremanlin really kicked in and I was grining like a Cheshire cat. The buzz lasted for hours!!

Hey chick...sorry, can't be bothered reading the whole thread, but here is my 2 cents:

I'm not afraid of guns, and have never been. But I have had things that I have been really scared about, to the point of being frozen on the spot. For example, snowboarding...maybe the ambient temperature explained the frozen status, but anyway I diverge from my course...

It is all a matter of mind over matter...shooting is a heck of a lot of fun...just go and stay with someone you trust and who can teach you gently and slowly how to do it properly.
Keep reminding yourself to breath. When you are nervous, the first thing to go is your calm breathing. By forcing yourself to regulate it, you will concentrate less on how scared you are.

And if you really, really don't feel like doing it, then don't worry and let it be...it's not the end of the world.

Good luck!

PS: Oh and yes, I snowboard now, and I absolutely looooooove it! :niceone:

007XX

22nd January 2008, 15:29

Bikernereid

22nd January 2008, 15:38

007XX

22nd January 2008, 15:50

Thanks means a lot. If you ever fancy a downhill partner once I get over there I would appreciate the company. I am dating a snowboarding snob!! Snob n snowboarding donlt really go hand in hand but would hate to insult the snowbaording community too much!!

Sounds good mate. I can't wait for the season to come around again...:banana: especially since it's stinking hot here today...

I'm not a snob, but I gave a go to skiing and didn't get the point of having both my legs pissed off at each other and going in opposite directions :pinch:

jrandom

22nd January 2008, 15:51

I tried skiing once.

I went really well until I realised that I didn't know how to stop.

:pinch:

Bikernereid

22nd January 2008, 15:57

007XX

22nd January 2008, 16:05

I wish you guys would stop complaining about the heat, it is cold, dark, rainy and crap here!! Do you a swap!!

I spent year dancing and doing athletics so having two legs that work independently is an asset when hurdling. Might be a wee bit painful otherwise!! And my legs r never pissed off at each other, me yes each other no.

Most skiiers I know are not overly find of snowboarding, not sure if it is to do with what you learn first or not? I just finding sticking with what I can do better works for me, especially when still drunk!!

What is the skiing like over there, have heard mixed reviews?

Hehehe...was just yanking your chain about the weather :bleh: And a swap? Don't be silly, why on earth would I do that?

Did the whole dancing thing too and have for years, hence the fact that it took me ages to find my "leading foot" and for quite some time was riding in a "duck stance" favouring goofy style...was very confusing as I could go leading either left or right, but was really struggling to carve.
After forcing myself to pick a leading foot and just sticking with it, I got the whole carving thing pretty quick.

The snow is not always the best in the North Island unless you get a really good season.
The best is really in the South Island, but that can get a bit expensive. Although I am told that 5 days at the Pinnacles is just the best :2thumbsup

sAsLEX

22nd January 2008, 16:22

So you were not actually firing live full-power ammunition? Was it some kind of laser tagging setup?

Cool, so we still get to take your 30-calibre virginity when you get back!

:2thumbsup

Don't even get me started on pistol shooting...

The sets "we" use, use blanks and BFAs (Blank Firing Attachments), with a "laser" pointer attached to barrel and a little vest thing you wear..... though they aren't that accurate over decent range. So you get the bang and the recoil, its only a .223 anyways, and you start beeping if you get hit.....

I tried skiing once.

I went really well until I realised that I didn't know how to stop.

:pinch:

I had a spectacular off on Ruapehu under the ski lift that got a huge round of applause as the approaching cliff and incredibly high speed meant my decision to just throw my rear foot sideways to stop on the SB meant a fair few cartwheels!

Bikernereid

22nd January 2008, 16:28

No vest things at all and noone firing at you.

You loon, falling on ur arse is always prefereable over cartwheeling. But at least you made people laugh and that is the main thing!!

The sets "we" use, use blanks and BFAs (Blank Firing Attachments), with a "laser" pointer attached to barrel and a little vest thing you wear..... though they aren't that accurate over decent range. So you get the bang and the recoil, its only a .223 anyways, and you start beeping if you get hit.....

I had a spectacular off on Ruapehu under the ski lift that got a huge round of applause as the approaching cliff and incredibly high speed meant my decision to just throw my rear foot sideways to stop on the SB meant a fair few cartwheels!

jrandom

22nd January 2008, 17:00

The sets "we" use, use blanks and BFAs (Blank Firing Attachments), with a "laser" pointer attached to barrel and a little vest thing you wear...

Oscmar gear?

They wanted to interview me for a job, once, but I've heard a few horror stories about what it's like working there so I never took it any further.

Swoop

22nd January 2008, 21:58

it is a special indoor target shooting set up that the Army use.
That wouldn't be the two ranges interlinked with cameras by any chance?

What is the skiing like over there, have heard mixed reviews?
Bloody great! A lot of northern hemisphere teams come down here in their off-season for training. South Island snow is better.

Oscmar gear?
They wanted to interview me for a job, once, but I've heard a few horror stories about what it's like working there so I never took it any further.
Interesting. I know of three folks working for them and they are quite happy.

Disco Dan

22nd January 2008, 22:01

jrandom

22nd January 2008, 22:27

I cannot see any reason for guns being used outside of the army or police.

They have no place in general society. At all.

Baaaaaaaaaaaaa!

:laugh:

What a good little sheeple it is.

I have had family members killed by guns in England... part of the reason why I am here. :shutup:

I have had family members killed by guns in Germany in the 1930s.

Part of the reason why I am here.

And part of the reason why any Government can take my guns from my cold, dead hands.

Pixie

23rd January 2008, 00:40

Most skiiers I know are not overly find of snowboarding, not sure if it is to do with what you learn first or not? I just finding sticking with what I can do better works for me, especially when still drunk!!

What is the skiing like over there, have heard mixed reviews?

My observationn of 'boarders is that 70% of them spend most of the time sitting on their arses in the snow.
- you go down the mountain,up the lift and the same ones are still sitting there.
What's the point?:crazy:

howdamnhard

23rd January 2008, 01:26

It shouldn't matter with a scope.Matters more with handguns(pistols) and open sights.I presume you have done the little test to see which is your leading eye?i.e. hold up your finger over a distant object and then close one eye.If the object is no longer covered by your finger,then the eye you closed is your leading eye.

All I was told by the army instructor was that the rifle I was using was for right-eyed people and that was that. I am right handed but can use my left so may see about learning to shoot left-handed. Who knows might be easier for me, wont know til I try. All advice very welcome.

Bikernereid

23rd January 2008, 01:40

Was using open sight so had to be right eyed. Yes I have had the test done and was informed that I was left-eyed, learn something new all the time.

It shouldn't matter with a scope.Matters more with handguns(pistols) and open sights.I presume you have done the little test to see which is your leading eye?i.e. hold up your finger over a distant object and then close one eye.If the object is no longer covered by your finger,then the eye you closed is your leading eye.

Bikernereid

23rd January 2008, 01:42

Hear hear!! But the serious ones who are toatlly insane and do extreme snowboarding are amazing. snowboarding is just wrong and I don't want a cold arse all the time!!

My observationn of 'boarders is that 70% of them spend most of the time sitting on their arses in the snow.
- you go down the mountain,up the lift and the same ones are still sitting there.
What's the point?:crazy:

howdamnhard

23rd January 2008, 01:43

Simple solution is just to close the left eye then,forces brain to use the right eye as it no longer has a choice.:shifty:

Was using open sight so had to be right eyed. Yes I have had the test done and was informed that I was left-eyed, learn something new all the time.

Bikernereid

23rd January 2008, 01:44

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

You family being killed in Germany in the 1930s and some of Dan's family beign killed by guns in the 1980/90s ish are very different. If he against guns outside of the police and military I can understand and he is well within his rights to hold this view point and for very valid reasons!

Baaaaaaaaaaaaa!

:laugh:

What a good little sheeple it is.

I have had family members killed by guns in Germany in the 1930s.

Part of the reason why I am here.

And part of the reason why any Government can take my guns from my cold, dead hands.

Bikernereid

23rd January 2008, 01:45

I tried but the bloody stubborn bugger kept opening. It felt so unnatural and I think it will require being tapes, glasses with lfet eye covered or such like.

Simple solution is just to close the left eye then,forces brain to use the right eye as it no longer has a choice.:shifty:

howdamnhard

23rd January 2008, 01:51

HMMM must take after its owner(being stubborn and all).:rofl:.Get one of those black eyepatches ,then you can look like a pirate.:D:rofl:

I tried but the bloody stubborn bugger kept opening. It felt so unnatural and I think it will require being tapes, glasses with lfet eye covered or such like.

kevfromcoro

23rd January 2008, 02:47

I tried skiing once.

I went really well until I realised that I didn't know how to stop.

:pinch:

yeah had a go at that
strapped all this shit on my legs..
found a downhill and away u go.
but couldnt stop..
big rocks and trees in the way.
quite friegtening
and they say bikes are dangerous

Bikernereid

23rd January 2008, 03:01

Very sexy the old eye patch!! Just need a matching parrot n wooden leg for the complete combo.

Yes my eye doe take after its owner 100% (not to be confused with my OWNER):doh:

HMMM must take after its owner(being stubborn and all).:rofl:.Get one of those black eyepatches ,then you can look like a pirate.:D:rofl:

jrandom

23rd January 2008, 06:52

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Sure. And some people clearly paint themselves as drooling idiots by the opinions they choose to hold.

You family being killed in Germany in the 1930s and some of Dan's family beign killed by guns in the 1980/90s ish are very different.

:blink:

Really.

Care to explain that comment, you patronising bitch?

he is well within his rights to hold this view...

And I'm well within my rights to tell him he's an idiot for holding it. Stop being so limp-wristed and politically correct, woman. Sometimes, people really are just wrong. Not all opinions are equally valid.

Bikernereid

23rd January 2008, 07:07

You really don't like people challenging your opinion and sticking up for someone else. I am not going to get into a bitch fight but if you can't see the difference between your and Dan's position then I really can't be bothered to explain. I did not say that one had more merit than the other I just was trying to suggest that you try and understand why he has his position relating to guns.

Sure. And some people clearly paint themselves as drooling idiots by the opinions they choose to hold.

:blink:

Really.

Care to explain that comment, you patronising bitch?

And I'm well within my rights to tell him he's an idiot for holding it. Stop being so limp-wristed and politically correct, woman. Sometimes, people really are just wrong. Not all opinions are equally valid.

jrandom

23rd January 2008, 07:15

... I really can't be bothered to explain.

Then how about you don't say such shit in the first place?

You're all about the back-down, aren't you...

NOMIS

23rd January 2008, 07:27

Seems like hunting is quite a popular pastime/ necessity in NZ. Have a KB friend who also is into hunting. I guess that not many people in the UK hunt as we haven't got the same pest issues that you guys have. I must admit that when I saw pics of my friends dad with a dead deer draped over his shoulders I wanted to be sick; deer are not a pest here and we love them.

So does it take more skill to target shoot than hunt shoot? I would have thought that shooting a moving target would be more skillful, but as I haven't done it I can only guess.

Was in the army, more skill to shoot while hunting for sure targets are targets and you normally shoot at a range for thatm, shooting a moving object always harder, would you stand still if u wea being shot at? no, Because its harder to get hit if you run like F***. any way im sure you will enjoy it, If it an army shoot you will definatly be looked after the wont go placing a weapon in your hands with out supervision.
If your using the IW STEYER ( army issue semi-auto ) you be fine thoes rifles are quite easy to handle, you will be taught correct ways to use all the equpment they intend to supply you with.

Where are you doing the shoot?

Im sure you will absolutly enjoy it d.w.

:msn-wink:

Mr Merde

23rd January 2008, 08:36

Simple solution is just to close the left eye then,forces brain to use the right eye as it no longer has a choice.:shifty:

By actually closing your left eye you would change your depth perception.

It is better to obstruct the vision in the domiant eye but still allow it to gather light.

i.e. A pair of shooting glasses\safety glasses with the now dominant eye's lens covered with an opaque material. After a few weeks of this the other eye will take dominance.

jrandom

23rd January 2008, 08:46

... I just was trying to suggest that you try and understand why he has his position relating to guns.

Actually, I will chuck in a clarification here.

Disco Dan is welcome to loathe and fear guns. That's his prerogative. I wouldn't try and force anyone to do something they weren't comfortable with.

He is not, however, welcome to try and assert that none of us should be allowed to own them, and that firearms should be restricted to the police and military.

That particular position is what I take issue with.

If we can't learn from history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising), we're doomed to repeat it.

Yes, click on the link.

Now imagine if, in the late 1920s when the German government started enacting gun control laws, the population had all rebelled against having their means of defense taken from their hands. Would history have been any different?

"Oh, don't worry, the Government and the Police will look after you."

:laugh:

You just enjoy your little cotton-wool world there, sweetie.

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing."

- Adolf Hitler

Swoop

23rd January 2008, 09:00

IW STEYER ( army issue semi-auto )
Don't you mean 3-speed?

howdamnhard

23rd January 2008, 09:57

By obstructing either eye you will stuff up your depth perception( the whole reason we have binocular vision).However as you say your brain is adaptable and by blocking your left eyes vision with but allowing light in it will eventually use the right as your dominant.(hope your right eye is as good as your left 20/20 ).:sweatdrop

QUOTE=Mr Merde;1393037]By actually closing your left eye you would change your depth perception.

It is better to obstruct the vision in the domiant eye but still allow it to gather light.

i.e. A pair of shooting glasses\safety glasses with the now dominant eye's lens covered with an opaque material. After a few weeks of this the other eye will take dominance.[/QUOTE]

FilthyLuka

23rd January 2008, 13:54

I get that I was just wondering how changing your dominanat eye might affect other things that require your eyes!!

it doesn't

@ Disco Dan

If you ban guns the only people that will have them are criminals. And then the wild boars will get wind of it, and decide "No guns... Oh they be FUCKED now"

Tusk rape numbers go through the roof, farmers fuck off, we stop buying new zealand made stuff, we no longer have it made, NZ goes to the shitter

its that simple... i think,

But seriously, wild boar, man them fools are huge.

jrandom

23rd January 2008, 13:58

wild boar...

Yes please.

<img src="http://i26.tinypic.com/24qqqv7.jpg"/>

FilthyLuka

23rd January 2008, 14:04

Yes please.

<img src="http://i26.tinypic.com/24qqqv7.jpg"/>

i forgot to add tasty, wild boars are also very tasty

Bikernereid

23rd January 2008, 21:04

Nothing to do with backdown I jusy do not think i am going to waste my time or effort explaining. All you seem to want to do it to provoke people and get into a fight which is not what I am about and is not where I wanted this thread heading. You really don't seem to understand that something in DAN's recent past has resulted in his position re guns as opposed to something in your ancestors past which has formed your position. He is entitled to any position he wants to take and should not be bullied by anyone to change this position no matter what.

It is nothing to do with being fluffy or any other such term that you wish to bandy about but repect for others. Do you understand how dictatorships happen, people like you telling everyone else what to think and forcing their way of life onto other (usually by force and with the aid of guns!!)?

Then how about you don't say such shit in the first place?

You're all about the back-down, aren't you...

scumdog

23rd January 2008, 21:23

it doesn't

@ Disco Dan

If you ban guns the only people that will have them are criminals. And then the wild boars will get wind of it, and decide "No guns... Oh they be FUCKED now" .

Have a look at my first post (#22) on this thread re relatively recent tough British gun laws and the vast increase in gun related death.
Most by people using illegal pistol.

Banning guns except for Police and Military won't undead Disco Dans relly.

jrandom

23rd January 2008, 21:30

Bikernereid

23rd January 2008, 22:59

Mr Jrandom your point would be?

jrandom

23rd January 2008, 23:06

Mr Jrandom your point would be?

<img src="http://i28.tinypic.com/t6z3m1.jpg"/>

Bikernereid

23rd January 2008, 23:17

As I said your point would be?

<img src="http://i28.tinypic.com/t6z3m1.jpg"/>

Dave-

23rd January 2008, 23:31

nope, but i have my own irational fears so understand.

jrandom

23rd January 2008, 23:37

As I said your point would be?

<img src="http://i25.tinypic.com/mc7ksm.jpg"/>

Bikernereid

23rd January 2008, 23:56

Once again you have taken a sensible topic and had it relagated into rant or rave. Can you please try in future to have an adult discussions without turning it into child-like or malicious/vindictive written assaults!!

jrandom

24th January 2008, 00:01

Can you please try in future to have an adult discussions without turning it into child-like or malicious/vindictive written assaults!!

<img src="http://i26.tinypic.com/r0cp6h.jpg"/>

FilthyLuka

24th January 2008, 08:56

undead

BRRAAAIIINNNS!

@chickthatsleepswitheverything
not really good at seeing points today is ya?

FilthyLuka

24th January 2008, 08:57

Can you please try in future to have an adult discussions without turning it into child-like or malicious/vindictive written assaults!!

Are you new to KB?

jrandom

24th January 2008, 09:00

@chickthatsleepswitheverythingandhappenstorideamot orcycle

She doesn't have a motorcycle.

FilthyLuka

24th January 2008, 09:04

She doesn't have a motorcycle.

There, you happy now? Edited appropriately

jrandom

24th January 2008, 09:06

There, you happy now?

Thank you.

Jay Random's Subediting Services, Inc - Guaranteed Accuracy Every Time (tm). First two apostrophe corrections free with voucher!

Blue Velvet

24th January 2008, 09:10

First two apostrophe corrections free with voucher!

Please sir, where can I get a voucher?

smoky

24th January 2008, 09:12

I always have wondered if there is a power, bad ass image to why some people start shooting. How did you get into shooting in the first place?

When there's a plethora of food available around you, from hunting pig, deer, goat, rabbit to fishing – it just seemed great to put food on the table.
I got into it for that reason alone – and I guess I enjoy the bush and the beaches.
To catch a fish, take it home, cook it and eat it, kill an animal, butcher it and put meat in the freezer – there’s a natural karma or coolness about it – leaves you feeling contented some how.

One day a was out in the Ruahina Ranges, tracked a stag for about 2 hours from first light, came about a clearing by a stream, I stayed down in the weeds and got it in my sites.
For some reason the way it was standing, full mantel on its antlers, it’s breath blowing steam out it’s nostrils, as it knelt down to drink I thought “how could I kill such a fantastic being”.
I don’t know what happened that day – but I haven’t been hunting since, still go fishing though.

ManDownUnder

24th January 2008, 09:14

Thank you.

Jay Random's Subediting Services, Inc - Guaranteed Accuracy Every Time (tm). First two apostrophe corrections free with voucher!

Where do I get one of those voucher's?

Re Dan and outlawing/banning guns totally. Ummmm no. While I see the position and understand the reason for holding it I totally disagree with it due to it being biased, (understandibly) influenced by recent events, and naieve

All other issues aside, it's important that those seriously affected by an issue are given the chance to say their peace, but they should not be the final desicion makers as they're emotionally involved and are not likely to make rational decisions on the path to policy.

Sue Bradford and the anti smacking bill comes to mind. Does the fact she was abused make her an impartial advocate of the law, or does she actually have a personal interest in this which could result in bad law being passed just for the sake of it?

Guns have their place in society. Depending on the society they have a different place (i.e. at war vs peace time, USA vs Switerland vs NZ etc). BBut sadly, when the law can't get to you in time and you need to look after you and yours ... might ultimately is right. Guns are part of that equation.

Swoop

24th January 2008, 09:26

Banning things because they have some sort of perception.

"Why don't we ban aircraft (for example), as they kill people."
The military use them, to drop bombs on people and fight each other with.
"They are evil and must be banned". "Think of the lives' that we'll save by banning them".
Quite true.

On the other hand is the fact that they are also used for good things.
Rescuing people. Saving lives. People fly aircraft for fun and enjoyment and enhance their personal skills and capabilities. Some people even use them to compete and win competitions with. There are museums where people actually collect aircraft for their own and the public's enjoyment.

The scary thing is when individuals do not have the chance to decide for themselves what they want. Usually this has been pre-determined by a few very vocal individuals who are pushing an agenda, which is then supported by a section of the media who are too stupid to look at the facts but still see a "story" to print or broadcast.
Just look at some of the stupid laws this country has enacted recently. A vocal few have inflicted their way onto the mass populus.

For someone without any knowledge or experience to dictate what others must do...
Unfortunately our society now sees this as the norm.

Edit: Bugger. took so long to write that MDU has put an eloquent post above.

007XX

24th January 2008, 09:29

Most things, used in an irresponsible fashion, will be dangerous...

Don't blame the item in question, just the person using it irresponsibly.

In my opinion, banning something because too many idiots are misusing it, is just a "ambulance at the bottom of the cliff" mentality which doesn't solve anything and deprives those using them properly unjustifiably.

Sort the morons out and leave the healthy minded ones alone to have fun, I say. :niceone:

007XY

24th January 2008, 09:54

...Sort the morons out and leave the healthy minded ones alone to have fun, I say. :niceone:

Apparently with the reported 'dumming down' of the average American the 'average' intellect in the USA now, is what was in the 50's, 60's and 70's dull normal-moron!! .. with guns!! :2guns::bash: damn I love NZ..:first:

007XX

24th January 2008, 09:58

Apparently with the reported 'dumming down' of the average American the 'average' intellect in the USA now, is what was in the 50's, 60's and 70's dull normal-moron!! .. with guns!! :2guns::bash: damn I love NZ..:first:

+1...:niceone:

jrandom

24th January 2008, 10:24

Delerium

24th January 2008, 15:16

I cannot see any reason for guns being used outside of the army or police.

They have no place in general society. At all.

But I am bias - I have had family members killed by guns in England... part of the reason why I am here. :shutup:

Iv had several friends killed on motorbikes I think there fore all motorbikes have no place in society. A gun is simply a tool, it takes a person to operate, the person killed your family members. My condolences for you loss, and I can understand how this would shape your opinion, but I dissagree. I enjoy shooting as part of my profession and recreationally. I shoot competitively and hunt whenver I can.

NZ has some of the best firearms laws around and a very low rate of firearms crime. I have followed several debates such as the place of firearms in society, and the vast majority in every case of those that oppose revery to emotive argument while those in support use logic. Many that oppose have never been trained or used a firearm either. Given the proper resepect, a little common sense and following safety practices shooting is perfectly safe. Im not dead or injured after 15 years of it.

If its not for you then fair enough, but dont try to ban my sport becuase of somebody elses actions. If you want to see what all the fuss is about, by all means go to your local range or try it with somebody that does it. you may like it you may not.

Every time that I have gone hunting iv met some random person or persons and have swapped stories and been really friendly. Complete strangers sharing a meal and telling lies becuase of a common sport. Part of why I enjoy going for a hunt is just being out in the boonies. Firearms owners are not bad people. We follow the correct safety standards and vetting process to enjoy our sport, so how does punishing us, the ones that carry out the correct process make the world safer? The person that goes on the ramage or robs a bank wont do it.

scumdog

24th January 2008, 18:04

<img src="http://photos1.meetupstatic.com/photos/event/2/7/1/7/event_1570007.jpeg"/>

From my cold, dead hands.

<img src="http://www.reedsway.com/charlton_heston2.jpg"/>

Hey, the Murkns are allowed to get something right occasionally.

Good call!!

BTW - the volume of gun deaths in a society is not an indication of lack of gun control -it's an indication of the mental health of a population:yes::wacko:

sAsLEX

24th January 2008, 20:30

Good call!!

BTW - the volume of gun deaths in a society is not an indication of lack of gun control -it's an indication of the mental health of a population:yes::wacko:

I like looking at the proliferation of weapons in Switzerland. They have the right idea, CMT would help this country a lot!

Bikernereid

25th January 2008, 03:13

So what I don't have sex with everyone either but you chose to selectively leave that section out!!

She doesn't have a motorcycle.

jrandom

25th January 2008, 06:37

So what I don't have sex with everyone either but you chose to selectively leave that section out!!

I don't presume to comment on things that I wouldn't know anything about.

:)

Did you consider the possibility that Mr Filthy Luka was simply interpreting the implications of your chosen online handle?

If you're neither a biker nor a nympho, why name yourself both?

scumdog

25th January 2008, 08:34

I don't presume to comment on things that I wouldn't know anything about.

:)

Did you consider the possibility that Mr Filthy Luka was simply interpreting the implications of your chosen online handle?

If you're neither a biker nor a nympho, why name yourself both?

I thought she was a biker 'n did only did 1 mile per hour???:confused::pinch:

jrandom

25th January 2008, 08:38

I thought she was a biker 'n did only did 1 mile per hour???

:laugh:

Well spotted, sir!

:niceone:

Bikernereid

25th January 2008, 15:56

Hypersexuality: a female whose sex drive is obsessively high. Considered a mental illness, coloqiually means a horny girl. Not to be confused with slut or skank where one's sexual dignity is pathetically low, nymphomania is simply related to an abnormally high sex drive.

I don't presume to comment on things that I wouldn't know anything about.

:)

Did you consider the possibility that Mr Filthy Luka was simply interpreting the implications of your chosen online handle?

If you're neither a biker nor a nympho, why name yourself both?

Bikernereid

25th January 2008, 16:34

I guess if you look at the average Canadian- intellgent, level-headed, cONSERVATIVE, outward-looking, and then compared them to the average American it is not difficult to see why although Canadians have one of the highest gun-to-people ratios they have such a low level of gun related crime.

I am not longer frightened of guns but have a healthy respect for them. I still have the heebeegeebees about the bloody idiots 'playing' with them though.

I like looking at the proliferation of weapons in Switzerland. They have the right idea, CMT would help this country a lot!

mitchilin

25th January 2008, 16:49

...I am not longer frightened of guns but have a healthy respect for them. I still have the heebeegeebees about the bloody idiots 'playing' with them though.

You hit the nail on the head.You don't "play" with them.They are a serious tool that fills the freezer with venison.Or gets you in trouble.A big motorcycle is the same.If you take your 08 'busa out "playing" ,what sort of result do you expect?

Disco Dan

26th January 2008, 14:06

I am not longer frightened of guns but have a healthy respect for them. I still have the heebeegeebees about the bloody idiots 'playing' with them though.

Thats the one.

What was involved was a bunch of people who were angry and had access to guns for retaliation...

Army and police having guns - yes.
Farmer having one gun for farming purposes - yes (but why have huge collections of the stupid things!)
Average jo-blogs in the suburbs to show off to his mates and goes to a fireing range every now and again - no, thats the type of person that ends up going on killing spree's.

FilthyLuka

26th January 2008, 16:44

Average jo-blogs in the suburbs to show off to his mates and goes to a fireing range every now and again - no, thats the type of person that ends up going on killing spree's.

I live in henderson, own a target rifle and regularly go to the shooting range.

So therefore i must be the type of person to go on a killing spree

fuck you

Disco Dan

26th January 2008, 16:48

I live in henderson, own a target rifle and regularly go to the shooting range.

So therefore i must be the type of person to go on a killing spree

fuck you

No need for the language...

But thats right, what need do you have for a gun??? Guns are for killing living things!

Delerium

26th January 2008, 17:44

No need for the language...

But thats right, what need do you have for a gun??? Guns are for killing living things!

Your accusing me of being one liable to go on a killing spree. Your showing your ignorance on the subject. I shoot competitively. I enjoy my sport and there is a lot more to it than pulling a trigger and going bang.

I go hunting too. Are going to villify me for that too, becuase if you are I hope your a vegetarian, the cow in the hamburger you just ate didnt commit suicide.

Are you aware of the vetting policy that is involved for obtaining a firearms license, and the different types of license? Didnt think so. I mentioned previously that many who argue against private firearms ownership revert to emotive argument as there is no valid logical argument they cannot come across, or that cannot be proven incorrect. You appear to be one of these people, and have proven that you know little on the subject. next topic.

sAsLEX

26th January 2008, 17:46

Guns are for killing living things!

Rifles might be but guns are for destroying ships!

<img src=http://www.afn.org/~scotsman/photos/uss.iowa.jpg>

Bikernereid

26th January 2008, 18:04

But can't ships have people on too :confused:

[QUOTE=sAsLEX;1398648]Rifles might be but guns are for destroying ships!

Disco Dan

26th January 2008, 18:20

Your accusing me of being one liable to go on a killing spree. Your showing your ignorance on the subject. I shoot competitively. I enjoy my sport and there is a lot more to it than pulling a trigger and going bang.

I go hunting too. Are going to villify me for that too, becuase if you are I hope your a vegetarian, the cow in the hamburger you just ate didnt commit suicide.

Are you aware of the vetting policy that is involved for obtaining a firearms license, and the different types of license? Didnt think so. I mentioned previously that many who argue against private firearms ownership revert to emotive argument as there is no valid logical argument they cannot come across, or that cannot be proven incorrect. You appear to be one of these people, and have proven that you know little on the subject. next topic.

I understand completly the process of obtaining a license.

Whenever a minority group is given a generalistic label like I did in my earlier posts, there is bound to be a percentage of error. IE - Not every single person that has a firearms license is a mass murderer.

You bite far to easily, but your concern is just. Your argument is just as valid as mine despite both parties not having a 100% complete picture.

I am not retracting my comment, quite the contary as my opinion still stands. Guns may not kill people but people do - yes that is true, but it remains that guns a very effective method of killing and prove 100% success rate in the intimidation scale when used by criminals/law inforcement.

Remember - the only reason the police have to have firearms is because the general public can get a license and go out and buy a gun... the more people that have them the higher the risk to me and my family, the higher the need for the police to have them and before you know it we turn into America... no-one should want that. I could not stand the thought of having to keep a gun on my property soley for protection from scum. Protecting myself from something so clearly dangerous that strict policing at the start could have prevented.

Keep your gun. Does not bother me - bring one onto my property and it will be the last time you do so! Leave your gun case unlocked - thats in the same ball park as leaving the front gates of a prison unlocked.

Dont flame me for my opinions - this world is fucked up enough as it is without people putting people down for having one! Remember I was never asking you or anyone else to change or do anything diferent - I was simply stating my opinion. An opinion that should be respected and valued just as much as your own opinon.

sAsLEX

26th January 2008, 18:59

I understand completly the process of obtaining a license.

There has been a number of killings in the media over the past couple of days.

How many used guns as you call them?

Anyone is capable of going on a killing spree without a gun.....

Remember - the only reason the police have to have firearms is because the general public can get a license and go out and buy a gun...

Bullshit.

The two recent times lethal force has been used has been against a golf club and a hammer.

Should we ban building and chasing little white balls?

Bikernereid

26th January 2008, 19:06

No you can't ban building- architecture is awesome and you sure as hell can't ban chasing little white ball- how will all those frustrated men get their agression out??? And I like GOLF!!!

There has been a number of killings in the media over the past couple of days.

You can't ban building and you sure as hell can't ban GOLF- how will all those frustrated little men gets thier aggression out????? And I like golf!!

How many used guns as you call them?

Anyone is capable of going on a killing spree without a gun.....

Bullshit.

The two recent times lethal force has been used has been against a golf club and a hammer.

Should we ban building and chasing little white balls?

MVnut

26th January 2008, 19:14

Building.......Golf.............:Offtopic::Offtopi c::Offtopic::Offtopic:

Bikernereid

26th January 2008, 19:51

If men are frustrated and can't play golf they may resort to killing people with thier golf clubs, so guns are not the only weapons for killing people!!

Building.......Golf.............:Offtopic::Offtopi c::Offtopic::Offtopic:

MVnut

26th January 2008, 19:55

If men are frustrated and can't play golf they may resort to killing people with thier golf clubs, so guns are not the only weapons for killing people!!

That's a fair cop.............we're back on Topic people:woohoo:

FilthyLuka

26th January 2008, 20:03

No need for the language...

But thats right, what need do you have for a gun??? Guns are for killing living things!

i have a walther LGR target rifle... do some research you single minded prat.

Why do rugby players tackle each other to the ground? You only do that to hurt people.

Why do cricket players beat shit with a stick, it seems very violent.

I target shoot because its a sport that requires skill. The skill to steady your heart and breathing so you can make that shot. Skills which i have polished over the past several years.

What need do you have for a motorcycle? A car is a much safer alternative..

Delerium

27th January 2008, 10:05

Fair one, but I dont agree about your opinion on license holders. If your going to go and shoot somebody whith a firearms, you dont go get a licnese first. Luckily we havent had to many nutters going on a rampage here, and I am only aware of one that had a license, which neighbours had been petitioning to police to remove. The result of this incident was the significant reworking of firearms legislation in this country.

People that own them are not inheritly bad. They are just normal people like everybody else. (and any licnese firearms owner that leaves their collection unlocked needs a swift kick in the arse and removal of their license, so I dont know where that comment came from)

If you dont want to have anything to do with the shooting community, ok good for you, they dont want to force their sport on to you, intimidate you or make you feel uncomfortable. What they do want is to enjoy their sport without people making unfounded claims and making their lives difficult. Thing is, your average joe blogs shooter is not out to get you and wont hurt you.

Are you aware of the Bristish situation? Ever since effectively banning all firearms from licensed shooters, firearms and violent crimes have jumped. one quote that comes to mind is if you criminalize guns only criminals will have guns. Shooters in this country are becoming increasingly concerend to try to prevent their sport becoming criminalised with no logical founding. THose against scream bloody murder with emotive arguments and seem to get places as they have the media support. Those are pro shooting dont receive anywhere near the media attention and so the public receive a one sided story that creates a perception of a problem far out of scale from reality.

We are all aware of the implications should a firearms be misused (death/serious injury) which is exactly why shooting ranges are such controlled environments with range wardens ensuring that all precautions and procedures are followed. Trust me the shooting community loathes these nutters that go on the rampage just as much as you do, each time it happens it damages our sport, and ruins the lives of those involved.

Sorry for the long post, but one last comment, the vetting process for obtaining a license is designed to prevent those with the mentality of being capapble to go on the rampage from obtaining a license. I am in no way capable of doing so, neither is anybody I know that shoots.

Swoop

27th January 2008, 16:12

I guess if you look at the average Canadian- intellgent, level-headed, cONSERVATIVE, outward-looking,
They are also very rich. They have to be, to be able to throw billions of canadian dollars down the toilet on a project that obviously keeps many public servants shuffling paper whilst not solving one single crime or ever being up to date.
This fiasco is called the "canadian gun registry". Shocking ineptitude.

what need do you have for a gun??? Guns are for killing living things!
Really? I thought that cardboard and paper were in far greater peril.
The mental discipline required to shoot well, is surprising. This is why the females can shoot particularly well!

Mr Merde

28th January 2008, 07:29

In answer to some of the concerns raised I submit the following article for your perusal.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

NATIONS' RATES OF PRIVATE GUN OWNERSHIP DO NOT CORRELATE TO RATES OF
MURDER
By Don B. Kates and Carol Hehmeyer ***
FORUM COLUMN

DAILY JOURNAL NEWSWIRE ARTICLE
August 06, 2007
http://www.dailyjournal.com (http://www.dailyjournal.com/)

Many people think that nations with more firearms will have more murder
and that banning firearms will reduce murder and other violence.
This canard does not comport, however, with criminological research in
the U.S. or elsewhere.

An extensive study that one of us (Kates) recently published with
Canadian criminologist Gary Mauser confirms the negative results of two
large-scale international studies over the past 15 years. ("Would
Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide: A Review of International
Evidence," Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, vol. 30, pages
651-694.)

These studies compared data from a large number of nations around the
world. There were no instances of nations with high gun ownership having
higher murder rates than nations with low gun ownership. If anything it
was the reverse, for reasons discussed below.

For example, though Norway has far and away the highest firearm
ownership per capita in Western Europe, it nevertheless has the lowest
murder rate. Other nations with high firearms ownership and comparably
low murder rates include Denmark, Greece, Switzerland, Germany and
Austria. Holland has a 50 percent higher murder rate despite having the
lowest rate of firearm ownership in Europe. And Luxembourg, despite its
total handgun ban, has a murder rate that is nine times higher than
countries such as Norway and Austria.

It turns out that in nations where guns are less available, criminals
manage to get them anyway. After decades of ever-stricter gun controls,
England banned handguns and confiscated them from all permit holders in
1997. Yet by 2000, England had the industrialized world's highest
violent crime rate - twice that of the U.S. Despite the confiscation of
law-abiding Englishmen's handguns, a 2002 report of England's National
Crime Intelligence Service lamented that while "Britain has some of the
strictest gun laws in the world, [i]t appears that anyone who wishes to
obtain a firearm [illegally] will have little difficulty in doing so."

In the rare case in which gun bans work, murderers use other weapons.
Eight decades of police-state enforcement of handgun prohibition have
kept Russian gun ownership low, resulting in few gun murders. Yet
Russia's murder rates have long been four times higher than those in the
U.S. and 20 times higher than rates in countries such as Norway. Former
Soviet nations like Lithuania also ban handguns and severely restrict
other guns, yet have 10-15 times higher murder rates than European
nations with much higher gun ownership.

Nor does the "more guns means more murder" belief square with our own
experience. The earliest American figures, dating from just after World
War II, showed both gun ownership and murder rates holding at low
levels. Today our murder rates are almost identical, despite six decades
of massive gun buying whereby Americans have come to own five times more
guns than they did in 1946. The intervening years saw a dramatic
increase in murder followed by a dramatic decrease. These trends had no
relationship to gun ownership, which steadily rose all the while
(especially handgun ownership).

American demographic data also refute the myth that fewer guns in a
community mean less murder. The murder rate among African-Americans is
six times higher than among whites. Does this mean African-Americans
have more guns? No, ordinary law abiding African-Americans are markedly
less likely than whites to own guns. But the argument for banning guns
to everyone is refuted, since fewer guns for law abiding
African-Americans does not mean fewer guns for African-American
criminals. Incidentally, rural African-Americans own guns as frequently
as whites, but the murder rate among them is only a tiny fraction of the
urban African-American rate.

Regardless of race, the distinction between good people and criminals is
vital. It is utterly false that most murderers are ordinary people who
went wrong because they had guns. Almost all murderers have life
histories of violence, restraining orders, substance abuse problems
and/or a form of psychopathology. It's generally illegal for these
people to have guns, but unlike good people, they ignore gun laws - just
as they ignore laws against violence.

The "more guns means more murders" mythology also flies in the face of
history. From the 1600s, American colonial law required that every
household have a gun and that every military-age male be armed for
militia service. Men too poor to buy guns were supplied with them by
colonial governments and had to repay the cost in instalments. To assure
that every home and man was armed, officers periodically searched homes
and men were required to muster with their guns. Despite this universal
armament, murder was rare and few murders involved firearms.

Murder rates increased after the 1840s, by which time these armament
requirements were no longer enforced and per capita gun ownership had
become much lower. From the 1860s on, gun ownership increased sharply.
Millions of men came home from the Civil War with their weapons; and
firearms were even more widely distributed in the era of cheap pot metal
guns (the "two dollar pistol") that followed. But this vast increase in
guns - much deadlier guns than ever before - from the 1860s onward was
accompanied by a substantially decreasing murder rate.

A few 19th century American states adopted gun controls because they had
(and still have) severe violent crime rates. In most states, murders
were few despite high gun ownership and virtually no gun control.
Likewise, Europe had low murder rates prior to World War I despite high
gun ownership and virtually no controls. Severe European gun laws
appeared (for political reasons) in the tumultuous post-World War I era.
Despite ever-stricter gun laws, both political and apolitical violence
has increased apace in Europe.

If anything, a review of the European experience demonstrates more guns
correlating with less murder. Nine European nations (including Germany,
Austria, Denmark and Norway) have more than 15,000 guns per 100,000
members of the population. Nine others (including Luxembourg, Russia,
and Hungary) have fewer than 5,000 guns per 100,000 members of the
population. But the aggregate murder rates of these nine
low-gun-ownership nations are three times higher than those of the nine
high-gun-ownership nations.

Some groups, particularly the gun lobby, might argue that this shows how
widespread gun ownership actually reduces violence rates. There is
substantial evidence that this is true in the United States, where gun
ownership for self-defense is very common. But there is no evidence that
Norwegians, Germans and other Europeans often keep guns for defense.

The reason that European nations with more guns tend to have lower
violence is political rather than criminological. Gun ownership
generally has no affect on how much violent crime a society has. Violent
crime is determined by fundamental economic and sociocultural factors,
not the mere availability of just one of an innumerable bevy of
potential murder instruments. Politicians in nations with severe crime
problems often think that banning guns will be a quick fix. But gun bans
don't work; if anything, they make things worse. They disarm the
law-abiding while being ignored by the violent and the criminal. Yet
nations with severe violence problems tend to have severe gun laws. By
the same token, the murder rates in handgun-banning U.S. cities - New
York, Chicago, Washington, D.C. - are far higher than in states like
Pennsylvania and Connecticut, where handguns are legal and widely owned.
In sum, banning guns to the general public increases people's
vulnerability and fails to reduce violence because the law-abiding
citizenry are victims of violent crime, not perpetrators. Banning guns
to felons, violent misdemeanants, juveniles and the insane (which our
laws already do) is a good idea in general, though such laws are very
difficult to enforce. Disarming those who only want to defend
themselves, however, is a surefire road to empowering criminals at the
expense of the innocent.
- ---
*** Don Kates is a lawyer and criminologist associated with the
Independent Institute in Oakland. Carol Hehmeyer is a retired San
Francisco deputy district attorney.
+++++++++

I am now fully expecting attacks with emotional rhetoric as I have actually tried to use a logical arguement here.

Bring it on

Disco Dan

28th January 2008, 14:40

But gun bans
don't work; if anything, they make things worse. They disarm the
law-abiding while being ignored by the violent and the criminal. Yet
nations with severe violence problems tend to have severe gun laws. By
the same token, the murder rates in handgun-banning U.S. cities - New
York, Chicago, Washington, D.C. - are far higher than in states like
Pennsylvania and Connecticut, where handguns are legal and widely owned.
In sum, banning guns to the general public increases people's
vulnerability and fails to reduce violence because the law-abiding
citizenry are victims of violent crime, not perpetrators. Banning guns
to felons, violent misdemeanants, juveniles and the insane (which our
laws already do) is a good idea in general, though such laws are very
difficult to enforce. Disarming those who only want to defend
themselves, however, is a surefire road to empowering criminals at the
expense of the innocent.
- ---

mkay...

So in AMERICA by banning handguns - crime goes up. Yep fair enough. But the part where it states that general public are disarmed and more vulnerable would not transfer to New Zealand AT ALL.

If guns where widespread and everyone had one (like America) and they banned them, then yes. But everyone does not have one!!! Thats what the Police are for surely!

Mr Merde

28th January 2008, 14:47

mkay...

So in AMERICA by banning handguns - crime goes up. Yep fair enough. But the part where it states that general public are disarmed and more vulnerable would not transfer to New Zealand AT ALL.

If guns where widespread and everyone had one (like America) and they banned them, then yes. But everyone does not have one!!! Thats what the Police are for surely!

Two countries where firearm ownership by the population is totally banned,

Burma (Myrymarr) and Zimbabwe

Only the military and police are allowed to have firearms and are the enforcement wing of the governments in power.

Two countries where the population is totally oppressed.

LilSel

28th January 2008, 15:15

I like guns :D... we have plenty too :headbang:

Dad does competitive shooting, so I have been brought up with having guns around.

I like a good bang every now and then, quite relieving really.

Disco Dan

28th January 2008, 15:24

Two countries where firearm ownership by the population is totally banned,

Burma (Myrymarr) and Zimbabwe

Only the military and police are allowed to have firearms and are the enforcement wing of the governments in power.

Two countries where the population is totally oppressed.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Disco Dan

28th January 2008, 15:24

I like a good bang every now and then, quite relieving really.

:wari::wari::wari::wari:

Delerium

28th January 2008, 17:33

mkay...

So in AMERICA by banning handguns - crime goes up. Yep fair enough. But the part where it states that general public are disarmed and more vulnerable would not transfer to New Zealand AT ALL.

If guns where widespread and everyone had one (like America) and they banned them, then yes. But everyone does not have one!!! Thats what the Police are for surely!

How do you KNOW that it wont have the same effects here. Similar things have happened in Canada and Britain.

I think that saying all americans have guns is more than a slight exageration. Firearms ownership there is slipping below 50%. Sorry I cant recall the article that states that number.

jrandom

28th January 2008, 18:05

Sounds like a good idea to me.

I think we already figured that out.

:yes:

It's a good thing you're too stupid to ever actually achieve anything toward the promotion of your sociological ideals.

Then again, maybe if you weren't so dumb, you wouldn't have those ideals.

I'm honestly unsure on that question.

YellowDog

28th January 2008, 18:55

It is an interesting debate with many sides to the argument being stated.

From a personal point of view, whilst I am a Londoner, I spent a lot of time in the countryside when I was a kid. I used guns regularly and learnt to respect them as well as hunting knives. Most of my peers had no such experience. I fully understand why townies detest the country folk for hunting pests such as rabbits and foxes, and also appreciate why the country folk believe the townies to be ignorant idiots with their heads too far up their arses to understand why hunting is necessary.

If we are now confusing legitimate and licensed gun ownership with illegal firearms, then we will not make any progress. The UK is a great example of how to do it wrong. In the wake of some pretty shocking events, hand guns and firearms were banned. Hunting knives with an over a 4" blade length were also banned. The UK Police say that gun and knife related crime has multiplied since that time. Less than 50% of certain category murders are reported in the news.

Does anyone actually believe that the perpetrators of armed assaults and robberies are legitimate and licensed to carry such weapons? The answer is no and the fact is that a hardened criminal can get whatever weapons he or she chooses. I understand the benefit to the Police that they can arrest someone found with such banned weapons, but surely this makes their own position more vulnerable. Criminals have a bigger incentive not to get caught and hence there have been more Police murders.

IMO - the way forward has to be education. Being brought up to understand right from wrong would be a very good start.

I work with an American, who is pretty keen on kicking ass and bombing everyone to buggery. Quite a scary attitude and not typical of all Americans. Clearly he has retained the Cowboys and Indians gene.

I used to work with a Russian lady who told me that all Russian school kids were taught to be a soldier and also a nurse from the age of 13. A strange concept for westerners to grasp, but pretty effective.

May be we are all looking for a magical solution which just does not exist. IMO - The authorities need to study the causes of armed crime and how particular groups are attracted or potentially consider themselves to be driven to such extremes.

Knee-jerk panic reacting by the authorities to a single situation (as in the UK) is not effective.

Midnight Special

28th January 2008, 23:56

well differant people use differant bikes for differant reasons so do people with firearms iv used shotguns pistols rifles , done competition shooting hunting etc its just like bikes its all about your personal control of your machine and control over your firearm there is so much more then just point and pull the trigger you have to control your whole body , breathing , stance, even the beat of your heart can make a big differance anyone target shooting will know what im talking about. i dont have guns because ther dangerous or i want to kill things , its personel acheivment and control. maybe just a girls opinion ?

Bikernereid

29th January 2008, 04:45

not that I would ever endorse violence!!!!!

FilthyLuka

29th January 2008, 15:04

not that I would ever endorse violence!!!!!

you wanna shoot a bunch of white guys on a bench?

Swoop

29th January 2008, 16:54

you wanna shoot a bunch of white guys on a bench?
CHAV'S.

Cheap
Hunting
Available
Virtually (anywhere in)
Suburbia

sAsLEX

29th January 2008, 17:40

Sounds like a good idea to me.

I am sorry your opinion does not match the current policy so is wrong.

you wanna shoot a bunch of white guys on a bench?

You been to the UK? Chavs are worse than rats.

Bikernereid

30th January 2008, 11:19

One of the many reasons I want to leave the UK!! And one of the reasons I believe that under age pregnancy should not result in government hand-outs but should result in prison time!!

I am sorry your opinion does not match the current policy so is wrong.

You been to the UK? Chavs are worse than rats.