Mounted average-speed cameras on motorways

[Bikernereid]

I have been following the cheesecutter campaign and wanted to ask about average speed cameras on highways in NZ. In the UK we are having more and more mounted average speed cameras placed on motorways.

How this system works in you have mounted cameras high above the motorway that register you speed as you pass by them. These cameras are placed at varying distances along a stretch of motorway. Last night I was driving on a stretch of motorway which is usually 70mph but that was restricted to 50mph. I found that instead of being aware of what traffic was around me I was constantly looking at my satnav to check that I wan't going over the specified speed. Not the safest of driving!!

There are other such systems around the UK and ones that vary the speed say 60pmh then 40pmh, 60pmh, 50mph along a particular stretch. Thi system is extremely hazardous as most driver/riders are more worried about speeding tickets than road safety.

Just wanted to see if you have this system and to warn you that if your governement in its ultimate wisdom ever proposes such a system you might well be advised to fight it tooth and nail.

[Ixion]

No, we don't have them. Given NZ's motorway system, much less extensive than UK, they would be of less use than in the UK.

BTW, do they work with bikes? Given the difficulties of IDing bike rego plates?

[jrandom]

Nope. No 'average speed' cameras here. Our speed cameras just use a single Doppler laser measurement, thank goodness.

You have to be pretty oblivious not to notice the cameras in NZ on the side of the road in the ubiquitous Unmarked White Vans, or in the various permanent mounts on poles around towns (which are not always populated with a camera - they don't have enough) in time to brake down to the appropriate speed limit if you happen to be exceeding it.

[Bikernereid]

These ones are not like the normal pole ones these are mounted very high up and vertically parallel to the motorway. They are just another means to control, TAX and cause a bloody dangerous nuisance to people on the motorway!!


Nope. No 'average speed' cameras here. Our speed cameras just use a single Doppler laser measurement, thank goodness.

You have to be pretty oblivious not to notice the cameras in NZ on the side of the road in the ubiquitous Unmarked White Vans, or in the various permanent mounts on poles around towns (which are not always populated with a camera - they don't have enough) in time to brake down to the appropriate speed limit if you happen to be exceeding it.

[Pixie]

Nope. No 'average speed' cameras here. Our speed cameras just use a single Doppler laser measurement, thank goodness.



Microwave not LIDAR

[DingoZ]

They have the same type of thing on some of the highways in Aus, as well as above road mounted cameras on some of the Express Ways and Main aterial routes in Melbourne. After the initial hoo har by the majority of the road users, saying they would be nothing but revenue gathering machines. They actually produced results in the way of detterent(or however thats spelled). And the cameras also provided a great source for such things as accident identification, and blackspots so that the local agencies could become pro active in order to target the correct areas for road funding etc.

As well as the timed interval cameras, mainly used by the long haul trucking companies to regulate their drivers. This also had immediate effects by forcing the drivers to slow down and to take breaks at regular intervals, this dramatically reduced the amount of heavy truck v car incidents by nearly 70% in the first 12 months of operation. And it is also proving beneficial to identify the recidivist car/bike speeders in certain areas. (and yes they worked with bikes as well as there was a second camera on the other side of the oncoming one, which captured the bikes plate. Sort of a double banger insurance)

[Usarka]

The technology is being put in place for this stuff. Whether it gets used for this purpose or not only time will tell.

does anyone really think the cameras installed around auckland motorways will only ever be for "traffic monitoring"?

[jrandom]

These ones are not like the normal pole ones these are mounted very high up and vertically parallel to the motorway. They are just another means to control, TAX and cause a bloody dangerous nuisance to people on the motorway!!

I hang out on uk.rec.motorcycles; I know what the UK motorway speed cameras are and how they work.

So... do you think that the motorway speed limits in the UK are too low, then?

Or do you think that there should be no speed limits whatsoever?

Or do you think that speed limits should just be a 'suggestion'?

Just wondering.

I mean, really. They're just motorways. They feel about the same at 100kph and 140kph. Your scheduling would have to be pretty fucked up for an extra 10mph to be crucial in every trip you take, and you have to be a pretty bad driver if you can't control your speed without becoming distracted from what's going on around you.

If your government really wanted to tax vehicle users, they'd just tax vehicle users. It wouldn't be hard.

It'd certainly involve a lot less cost and stuffing around than buying shitloads of cameras and waiting for people to drive past them above a certain speed. I'm not a fan of the 'revenue collection' theories. The people deciding to spend money on speed cameras genuinely think that less people will die on the roads and less expensive property damage will occur as a result of those systems.

Now, maybe those people are wrong, but I'm pretty bored with the endless ranting from the unwashed masses about 'revenue gathering'.

[Monsterbishi]

There's currently two of the new generation pole mounted cameras(can mount on any pole thicker than 63mm) which have average speed capabilities being tested down here in chch.

Also, Lytellton tunnel down here is having a average speed system fitted this year when the 32 additional smart cameras get installed in the tunnel.

[bugjuice]

skidpants, do you not ever have anything constructive to give? just raid threads with pointless one liners?



Personally, I'm not convinced that the average speed cameras work. From what little time I spent in the UK the other year, they all seem to be forward facing. Which means that bikes won't count, cos there's no reg on the front.

However, how can it snap you doing your 70mph (which is quick) and it has a fraction of a second to 'see' you, record your reg plate, along with a handful of other cars in the frame, then count and snap you again at the other end? What if you've changed lanes? what if your vehicle is obscured by a truck or another car you've caught up to? What if you're between lanes? What about night, where there's so much glare from headlights?
There's tons of them, so they much do something, I'm just not convinced.

Personally, like Nymph said, I've heard of crashes happening from people fixed on their speedo, not the road.

And there's more speed cameras on half of the M25 (the 'ring motorway' round London), than all of NZ

[Coyote]

You have to be pretty oblivious not to notice the cameras in NZ on the side of the road in the ubiquitous Unmarked White Vans, or in the various permanent mounts on poles around towns (which are not always populated with a camera - they don't have enough) in time to brake down to the appropriate speed limit if you happen to be exceeding it.
Ha! Over here they do their very best to conceal these vans. I've been meaning to get a camera so I can gather a collection of places they reside in. A good example is between the Totara Park and Upper Hutt lights (most of everyone that goes to the Rimutakas has been through there). There's a stretch of trees on the side of a corner but with one small gap for cars to get to the park on the other side. At the gap sits a white camera van staring right at the end or the row of trees. Once you see it it's got you.

I wouldn't mind so much if they were meant to trap people. After all it's a bit silly that speeders know where the camera's are, slow down for them, then speed off. But there are entrapment laws right? Something like you must see the car from 100m away? Bugger all distance when going 100km, only got 3 seconds to slow down

[Swoop]

I seem to recall a proposal to install them on the Auckland motorway system, some years ago.

Thankfully our "powers that be" were wise enough to see that it was a waste of money.
Daytime, the motorway is never travelling at a speed enough to trigger them, and night time allows the loons to lose control and crash - which is recorded on the observation cameras anyway!

[Coyote]

Newbie to here. But still have my licence and a clean record...!!!

And just for the record. Not dissing you to fit in. Don;t give a flying f..k about fitting in. Thats the kind of attitude you find in a school yard...
Don't go bragging about a clean record, people will shove it in your face when a cop finally catches you dozing off and putting too much weight on the twist grip.

Welcome to the site :D

[Pixie]

Now, maybe those people are wrong, but I'm pretty bored with the endless ranting from the unwashed masses about 'revenue gathering'.

How do you explain the proposed penalty changes in NZ,then

Lowest penalty fine - which is the highest number issued -and the ones most commonly paid by Ma & Pa law abiding - is to be increased.

Every penalty fine above that -which fewer people get -which Joe businessman defends in court or Bob boy racer doesn't pay at all -is to be decreased.

Result:More revenue for less legal hassle.

What are those changes other than a cynical attempt to improve the income versus cost balance sheet?:angry2:

[Grub]

Anyone using Ngauranga Gorge in Welly should (by now) have seen that there are at least 6 cameras monitoring the area (posibly more - its lots). I don't for a minute expect them never to be used for average speed monitoring. In fact I ride up/down there as if they already are.

[jrandom]

Result:More revenue for less legal hassle.

The overall impact of the changes was to increase demerit points and decrease fine amounts, which I heartily approve of. Better to give people a wakeup call by taking them off the road temporarily than to simply chip away at their bank accounts.

But one fine amount gets increased slightly, and of course the unwashed masses bellow "conspiracy!"

Gimme a break.

You really think people will be less likely to contest tickets that result in them losing their licences than tickets which just cost them a few hundred dollars but let them keep driving?

Your argument holds no water whatsoever.

[swbarnett]

You really think people will be less likely to contest tickets that result in them losing their licences than tickets which just cost them a few hundred dollars but let them keep driving?
It's not about whether people will be less likely to contest the ticket. If it is revenue they are after they'll just issue fewer of the higher tickets with legal hassle and more of the lower ones.

[DingoZ]

The overall impact of the changes was to increase demerit points and decrease fine amounts, which I heartily approve of. Better to give people a wakeup call by taking them off the road temporarily than to simply chip away at their bank accounts.

But one fine amount gets increased slightly, and of course the unwashed masses bellow "conspiracy!"

Gimme a break.

You really think people will be less likely to contest tickets that result in them losing their licences than tickets which just cost them a few hundred dollars but let them keep driving?

Your argument holds no water whatsoever.

:clap: Well said

[The Pastor]

75 demerits for one offence is bullshit. Owning a radar dector and get caught speeding (say 120-130) = 100 demerits.

bollox.

[onearmedbandit]

There's currently two of the new generation pole mounted cameras(can mount on any pole thicker than 63mm) which have average speed capabilities being tested down here in chch.


Really? Where would they be?

[90s]

I hang out on uk.rec.motorcycles; I know what the UK motorway speed cameras are and how they work.

I used to do 40,000 miles per year in the UK at one point, and still drive over there every year. Sadly I am familiar with all their current tools, although registering for the London congestion charge gubbins catches me out every time. The average speed cameras didnot work well for bikes, and did fail to catch lane changers over distance, but no longer. Neither bikes nor those that change lanes are safe from the latest versions.


So... do you think that the motorway speed limits in the UK are too low, then?

Depends - certainly West Midlands police do with their officially unofficial acceptance of 85mph as acceptable for cars on the motorway. And this is the speed usually done in most moving conditions. Not 70mph. Certainly the last few police cheifs for road safetey have ALL been done for speeding, proving that they too think 70mph is too low in 'safe' conditions.
And me? I drive to the conditions. In the UK. Here I do 100kph. Driving in France last July I moved at 145kph with the other traffic on the peages and it was probably the safest traffic I have been in.


Or do you think that there should be no speed limits whatsoever? Or do you think that speed limits should just be a 'suggestion'? Just wondering.

Drive to the conditions. In the UK the limit is now often changing with the conditions (in theory), hence the point about people being confused. There is often a lag between 70mph being correct for the conditions and that the central traffic management system is broadcasting a 40mph temp. limit and timiing you = fining you = people braking like crazy for no raod related reason.


I mean, really. They're just motorways. They feel about the same at 100kph and 140kph. Your scheduling would have to be pretty fucked up for an extra 10mph to be crucial in every trip you take, and you have to be a pretty bad driver if you can't control your speed without becoming distracted from what's going on around you.

Haulage is pretty crazy. Minutes added up over a fleet over a year = billions of pounds at stake. For drivers on contract they must make the times for their pay but the companies cut them loose sacking drivers who speed. But a trucker caught in a jam must not loose his licence by speeding to make time up later or not speed and miss his targets. Its a fun world.

And see above for the distraction thing.


If your government really wanted to tax vehicle users, they'd just tax vehicle users. It wouldn't be hard.

They do, and fuel, and registration and and and. But there is a limit. But it is just not about govt collecting one amount - revenue is used by different groups, ie. police. To increase their budget they can raise their own revenue, and it is a local vs. central dynamic.

As an example of this and in contrast to the midlands police, the Scottish border police are hardline 70mph enforcers. They have raised revenue by hidinh cameras at the end of long downhills and places where speed creeps up to collect revenue. The ombudsman has fined them many times for doing this, but their statements confirm that the fines are less than the revenues collected ie. net gain. Govt won't increase their funding so ...


Now, maybe those people are wrong, but I'm pretty bored with the endless ranting from the unwashed masses about 'revenue gathering'.

I agree with you that many behind the road management schemes have safety first. Cameras too can work - at accident black spots and in urban areas studies have shown they are effective. Studies have proved that they are only effective when highly visible and advertised - ie. not hidden. Does not work - ever. But does raise cash.
And the problem is that once allowed you have groups who can subvert the use of the technology for political, financial and other gain. The UK is a sad case where in some areas the tools are used for road safety and seem to work. And other where they are blatantly used for revenue collection.

Never be bored when small groups use something that should work for you against you.

Back to the topic, average speed cameras are like all technology that aims to enforce behavioural change in people. If the education is not there in the first place, will not work. I think in NZ, it will not work.
Go back to driver education first and then see that people regulate their own driving and speed using the most sophisticated computer and software there is - the (drum roll please) brain.

[Bikernereid]

Just cos you hang out on a site doesnlt mean you know how thing work in the UK. Have you ever riden/driven here and for how long?


I hang out on uk.rec.motorcycles; I know what the UK motorway speed cameras are and how they work.



So... do you think that the motorway speed limits in the UK are too low, then?

It is not an issue of the speed limit per se, although the German autobahns have the right idea and have less accidents, but it is rediculous and dangerous to keep changing the speed limit over a busy stretch of motoway for no particular hazardous reason.

Or do you think that there should be no speed limits whatsoever?

Speed limits have thir place, such as in towns, near school and on dangerous stretches of roads.

Or do you think that speed limits should just be a 'suggestion'?

Speed limits should not be sugestions otherwise you have people driving at all manner of speed limits which is not safe.

Just wondering.

Your scheduling would have to be pretty fucked up for an extra 10mph to be crucial in every trip you take, and you have to be a pretty bad driver if you can't control your speed without becoming distracted from what's going on around you.

You come and drive over here and see what it is like before spouting about peoples' driving capapbilities.

If your government really wanted to tax vehicle users, they'd just tax vehicle users. It wouldn't be hard.

They do tax us with road tax, fuel and the first 6 months of the gov't imposing speed restrictions on the M25 they earned over £6 million in revenue from speeding tickets. Also if you knew anything about North Wales you would lqlwo know of the reputation of the Chief of Police and his attitude to speed and motorbikes. he is the most hate Chief in the whole of the UK and has earned a fortune in speeding tickets much to the detriment of the tourism industry!!

It'd certainly involve a lot less cost and stuffing around than buying shitloads of cameras and waiting for people to drive past them above a certain speed. I'm not a fan of the 'revenue collection' theories. The people deciding to spend money on speed cameras genuinely think that less people will die on the roads and less expensive property damage will occur as a result of those systems.

Now, maybe those people are wrong, but I'm pretty bored with the endless ranting from the unwashed masses about 'revenue gathering'.

[Soul.Trader]

But there are entrapment laws right? Something like you must see the car from 100m away? Bugger all distance when going 100km, only got 3 seconds to slow down

No. Firstly, that's not what entrapment is. Secondly, there's absolutely no reason they would have to warn you that they're about to snap you speeding.

[Max Preload]

...night time allows the loons to lose control and crash - which is recorded on the observation cameras anyway!

Nothing on the Auckland motorway cameras is recorded - it's a live feed only.

[Swoop]

Nothing on the Auckland motorway cameras is recorded - it's a live feed only.
There have been several pieces of footage shown on television programmes, "Motorway Patrol" being one of them. Footage from CCTV cameras was used.
How did this happen if they are not recording?

[Monsterbishi]

Nothing on the Auckland motorway cameras is recorded - it's a live feed only.

They can, and do record both video, and snapshots, when our traffic management staff are caught doing dodgy work they e-mail the pics to us!

[Max Preload]

"None of the cameras make recordings (apart from some brief footage for training). The argument is that traffic management does not require recording and that law enforcement is not the centre's role." (http://tinyurl.com/yqcfj2)

[Monsterbishi]

They DO record stills/vids for purposes other than training, it doesn't matter what you google or quote, the fact isin't going to change...

[Divot]

Something like you must see the car from 100m away? Bugger all distance when going 100km, only got 3 seconds to slow down

Used to 50metres but that was dropped to must be seen. If the Camera in a van can see you then you should be able to see the van!

[Max Preload]

They DO record stills/vids for purposes other than training, it doesn't matter what you google or quote, the fact isin't going to change...

Your opinion isn't fact - it's just your opinion. I know who I believe.

[Max Preload]

There have been several pieces of footage shown on television programmes, "Motorway Patrol" being one of them. Footage from CCTV cameras was used.
How did this happen if they are not recording?

I can't say I've ever seen any such footage, but then I'm not much of a TV watcher.

[Monsterbishi]

Your opinion isn't fact - it's just your opinion. I know who I believe.

ok, in this instance, my statement(not opinion) is FACT, me = L2/3p STMS, as in one of the guys in the yellow vests who looks after roadworks sites, we get sent pictures, and videos, via email, from the aforementioned camera's whenever any of our staff are caught doing things that they shouldn't be, ie, working behind the attenuators, etc.

I don't know how much simpler to put it? The networks cameras use recorded information for more than just training. What don't you understand?

[Speedracer]

"None of the cameras make recordings (apart from some brief footage for training). The argument is that traffic management does not require recording and that law enforcement is not the centre's role." (http://tinyurl.com/yqcfj2)

The Traffic Management Centre's manager, Simon Gough, a roading engineer, says at present the unit is doing a "damn good job".

But he concedes that what he thought would be a short-term project keeps expanding as the technology improves.


That article was back in 2005. Things change.:buggerd:

[jcupit69]

I hope and pray they will never come to NZ. In no way are they safe...like original post says, you spent more time focusing on your speed than what your doing. If memory serves correctly they have these dotted around the motorway in sicily too, and they are a pain in the ass!!!! If the correct speed isnt sign posted then you get screwed. Thankfully i think doing it in NZ would be more trouble than it would be worth, and there will always be quieter country roads that will remian camera free!!!!