Which 650 to buy?

[Qkchk]

Hi Guys n Gals,

Myself and Qkkid are looking at getting into Adventure Riding this year and with all the bikes available on the market it makes choosing the right bike a challenge.

What we want out of the bike:
-Will be perferably brand new or with very low/demo kms.
-Can be a commuter during weekdays, including lane-splitting
-Want to do day trip/weekend away Trail/Adventure rides - Riding the bike there, not transported on a Trailer
-Bike will be ridden solo majority of the time (1 bike each)
-Bike suitable for 5'8 Person
-Capable of doing 120kph without struggling on open road (So bike would be ideally a 650....)
-Comfort
-How well they handle a dust-up..... ie: How much stuff breaks off when the bike is dropped.


I have been lurking on some Adventure websites, seems there is a fierce rivalry between the KLR650 and the DR650. I have heard the DR650 is hard on the arse is a better offroader but not as good onroad as the KLR. Is the KTM the best bike money can buy or just too overpriced? What do people think of the XT660R? Can you still buy the XR650?

Your input is very much apprieciated, Thanks.

[Patch]

Honda have been around since day dot - stood the test of time
KTM are the new kids on the block, with a good product.

BMW is prob the better of the lot - if you can afford it.



Same ole same old - ride 'em all, buy the one you like

[Crisis management]

Unfortunately it's a big subject......the DR works for me (mostly) but they are all compromises of one sort or the other!
PM sent.

[cooneyr]

Respectfully disagree with Patch about the BMW being the best of the lot on the grounds of Qkchk mentioned trail riding. They will do it but not as nice others.

In order of dirt to road
XR650R, KTM LC4 640 Enduro/Adventure, DR650, XT660R, KLR650/F650Dakar.

Given you mentioned trail in your post I'd say DR650, KTM or XR650R. All will do everything else. KLR would probably handle a drop the worst but over all bugger all difference. The KTM, XR, and KLR may be a bit difficult for a "shorter person" and the DR the best. The XR650R is kick start only and we dont see very many XR650L's which are probably somewhere between the KTM and DR.

F650 Dakar and KLR are similar in many respects except price. Excellent long distance bike and capable of trail and gravel but no as nice as others.

DR is defiantly not the sharpest tool in the shed (I'd give that prize to the KTM) but value for money the DR stands out. The seat on the DR can be dealt to pretty easily for as little or as much money as you want to throw at it.

If have $ to burn look at the KTM LC4 640 Adventure :D Very similar to the LC4 E but better fuel range and more fairing for on road. They are even taller than the E though.

Dont know so much about the XT660 R obviously.

Go ride some bikes if you looking new.

Cheers R

[Bass]

I would be happy to bring the DR along on one of the local rides and you can both have a thrash. There is one potential problem though in that I have the height wound right up and so the ground will require remote access for you.
Having said that, the DR is actually set up so that it can be lowered. There is a second mounting hole in the dogbones for the rear shock and the forks are easily slipped through the triple clamps. The side stand requires modification or replacement if the bike is lowered however.

Oh and by the way, welcome to the fun side. If you actually do what you are talking about, if my experience is anything to go by, you will triple the number of roads that are of interest to you. Better than that, you will get to see the real and really beautiful New Zealand which hides away down all those gravel/dirt roads. The icing on the cake is that it's fun getting there.

[clint640]

Sounds like the DR650 is the bike for you. They're good value new, not too tall or heavy & fairly crashworthy.

Being worried about the seat on a bike is like being worried about what tyres it's got - a seat can be improved heaps for around the cost of a set of tyres, or much less if you can lay your hands on a staplegun, electric carving knife & a few scraps of foam & vinyl.

KLRs are a bit more road oriented than the DR, they have a comfier seat & more fuel range (which in NZ is a 'nice to have' but not essential) but are a bit taller & heavier. XT660R fits in the same bracket I reckon - if you've got a road bike also there's a lot of overlap.

XR650's come in 2 flavours, I don't think either is still sold, but there may be 1 or 2 still around, The 650R is a tall, full on, kick start only mega grunty lightweight dirtbike. The 650L is similar to the DR650 but lots taller so maybe not so good for a 5'8" n00b.

KTMs are indeed the best adv bike money can buy, but they're all too tall for you to start out on really. They've stopped making the 640's, although there are still a few new Adventure models around. The new 690 Enduro will be out in a few months, but they're tall too.

Cheers
Clint

[nerdneh]

Hi Guys n Gals,

Myself and Qkkid are looking at getting into Adventure Riding this year and with all the bikes available on the market it makes choosing the right bike a challenge.

What we want out of the bike:
-Will be perferably brand new or with very low/demo kms.
-Can be a commuter during weekdays, including lane-splitting
-Want to do day trip/weekend away Trail/Adventure rides - Riding the bike there, not transported on a Trailer
-Bike will be ridden solo majority of the time (1 bike each)
-Bike suitable for 5'8 Person
-Capable of doing 120kph without struggling on open road (So bike would be ideally a 650....)
-Comfort
-How well they handle a dust-up..... ie: How much stuff breaks off when the bike is dropped.


I have been lurking on some Adventure websites, seems there is a fierce rivalry between the KLR650 and the DR650. I have heard the DR650 is hard on the arse is a better offroader but not as good onroad as the KLR. Is the KTM the best bike money can buy or just too overpriced? What do people think of the XT660R? Can you still buy the XR650?

Your input is very much apprieciated, Thanks.
07 DR650 [ small tailight mod.] has different memory foam in seat than previous models, far more comfortable on butt.

[warewolf]

I would say DR650. We are talking entry-level adventuring here - although you haven't said what level dirt riding experience you have. If none or nearly so, consider getting something smaller and lighter that you can trail ride to pick up skills, even if it means a compromise on the highway. Many people try to adventure ride a big highway-comfortable bike and struggle, swap down to something small and nimble and start enjoying themselves again. I'd squeeze the DR650 into that category as a suitable bike, just. Will this be your only bike or can you opt for less of a compromise?

The KLR is big favourite with the septics - they have an assembly (if not manufacturing) plant locally - but is not so dominant in any other market AFAIK. The DR rules the roost in NZ. I reckon it suits the environment here better, too, since we have fewer long straight roads. Think of it as a blank canvas (priced similarly), modify it to suit yourselves. Heaps of support with that right here. I bought the KTM because I didn't want to have to modify it. Open your wallet and ride.

[Qkchk]

WOW Thanks for the response guys, cant beat peoples opinions and experiences.....

To clarify a few things:
We will be keeping our roadbikes
We both have offroad experience
Bike will be used 50/50 Road/Track


I was asking about the KTM only making sure they are worth the extra $$'s over the Jap brands. Nothing worse than paying more for something when there is a cheaper alternative that is better.....

Is bike weight a huge issue?

Probably the best thing to do now is TEST RIDE!

[crazybigal]

what about the aprilia pegaso? I was reading one of the aussie bike mags the other day and there is a good write up on all the 650 adventure bikes, the ktm had no side stand! and was very raw, lots of vibration from the motor.
most of the test riders picked the Pegaso or the BMW.
i think the mag is "Australian road rider"? worth a read.

[Waxxa]

KLR 650 in my books. I had one until just recently and it didn't let me down in the ten years I had it, 120K. You can drop them and they will hardley scratch.

What ever you decide on, if the bike doesn't come with hand-guards, get them!

[warewolf]

I was asking about the KTM only making sure they are worth the extra $$'s over the Jap brands.I really wonder why people (it's very common, not just you) make this comment. The KTM Adventure is the same/cheaper than the BMW, yet people never question the validity of the big spend on the Beemer!


Nothing worse than paying more for something when there is a cheaper alternative that is better.....I wouldn't say it was better, not by a long shot, but I would say that it is better value for most people.


Is bike weight a huge issue?Only huge weight :laugh: More weight is always more of a problem.

Have fun with the test rides! Up Mt Eden and down Mt Wellington there are humped cattle grids which are a convenient suspension test for those uh, big bumps...:msn-wink:

[Skinny_Birdman]

Rode Lugzy23's KLR through part of the Rainbow on the DB1K, and I thought that the KLR was a lot lighter, shorter and nippier than I had anticipated (mind you, I was comparing it back to back with the Transalp), shiteloads better than my F650 Funduro was, although a lot less smooth. For me, the best thing about the KLRi was the (stock) riding position. Suited me (6'0") perfectly.

Mind you, the rack for the topbox fell apart going over the Maungatapu....

[Qkchk]

Seems no one has ridden a XT660R? Would it be better to have fuel injection over carbs or is it all in the eye of the beholder?

[warewolf]

Seems no one has ridden a XT660R?Seek (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/search.php?searchid=3177292) and ye shall find.

[tri boy]

Seems no one has ridden a XT660R? Would it be better to have fuel injection over carbs or is it all in the eye of the beholder?

Think marks had one, and maybe bvaut. PM those two.
I'm staying out of this one.
Whatever you get, you'll have to join the Adv assault rides. We are soooooo hardcore:rofl::apint:

[clint640]

I was asking about the KTM only making sure they are worth the extra $$'s over the Jap brands. Nothing worse than paying more for something when there is a cheaper alternative that is better.....

Is bike weight a huge issue?

Probably the best thing to do now is TEST RIDE!

For me the KTM was definitely worth the extra $$. The light weight & great suspension etc make it more offroadable than the competition, without giving up too much in on road comfort. (yeah they vibe a bit, but that doesn't bug me) That suspension is also nice on road, & the extra grunt doesn't go astray. If you have a look at a KTM 640 & a DR650 side by side it's not hard to see where the money has been spent. So for my money I got a more versatile machine.

Weight is very important if you want to trail ride the thing cos you're going to have to pick it up sooner or later. My 640 is 150kg, a DR is a shade more, they're OK on easy trail rides, but you need to be fit. I've picked up a mate's F650 off him & jaysus feckin' blasphemy that thing was heavy. There's a reason new MX & Enduro machines are around 100kg!

That a mag called 'Australian Road Rider' picked the Pegaso & the F650 is hardly a surprise as they are both at the road bike end of the adv big single spectrum.

Cheers
Clint

[gsp0702]

I have ridden the 660R, still need to compare with a 640 KTM which i will hopefully manage two do in a fortnight or so up in Palmy North. But my thoughts are pretty much as the thread. It seemed a pretty good bike, doesnt make as much power as the 640 (approx 10bhp), suspension i suspect wouldnt be as good, but compared to what i ride at the moment very light and flickable my first experience on a big single and it was fun, revved freely no issues with the fuelling (which i have seen mentioned as problem at low revs) great on back roads and non highway (motorways). In the right colour doesnt look bad just nothing special. Fergus at TSS sang its praises but thats probably because he didnt have a KTM 640 in stock for me to try, all in all a pleasant experience. But having said that i didnt buy one.

Also might be worth reading here for some more infor on XT660's:-

http://yam-xt.com/


Andy

[Ixion]

A point that needs to borne in mind by those in other parts of the country. If you are marooned in dorkland (as the Qks are) you have to tackle at least 100km or so of highway before you get to anywhere interesting for gravel/off road (there are small places closer, but nothing to justify a day let alone a weekend).

Several hundred k on highway needs a bike that (as the OP said) can handle sitting on 120kph.

Add to that roadgoing kit , lights etc, (who wants to have to trailer a bike, makes the whole exercise pointless IMHO), and the result isn't going to be light.

Just can't get round that, I'm afraid.

[Transalper]

.....That a mag called 'Australian Road Rider' picked the Pegaso & the F650 is hardly a surprise as they are both at the road bike end of the adv big single spectrum.

Cheers
Clint
:niceone: was thinking the same thing after having similar conversations with some of the local experts, you have to look at who is testing them, you also have to take in to account the terrain they were tested on, as in the average trails and ground over here is a bit different to Auss etc.
Example: What's quotes as suspension a little too soft in one country might be just right over here.

[gsp0702]

Just looked at how much you can pick up a 2007 Suzuki DR650 on trademe and its quite a saving over the Yam, about 4k and the specs look similar although carb vs efi, and the Yams some 10-15kg (Dry weight) heavier.

Becomes tough to justify the xtra cost of the yam

[FlangMasterJ]

Won't be long till the new 690's come out :niceone:

<a href="http://s25.photobucket.com/albums/c52/FlangMasterJ/?action=view&current=2809-ktm-690-Enduro.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c52/FlangMasterJ/2809-ktm-690-Enduro.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[warewolf]

Won't be long till the new 690's come out :niceone::drool:

Tease :crybaby:

[cooneyr]

:drool:

Tease :crybaby:

Yes he is but what have you got to cry about. :oi-grr:

Cheers R

[Qkchk]

A point that needs to borne in mind by those in other parts of the country. If you are marooned in dorkland (as the Qks are) you have to tackle at least 100km or so of highway before you get to anywhere interesting for gravel/off road (there are small places closer, but nothing to justify a day let alone a weekend).

Several hundred k on highway needs a bike that (as the OP said) can handle sitting on 120kph.



Youve hit it right on the head Ixion! :yeah:


Won't be long till the new 690's come out :niceone:



Dropped into Motoworld Powersports (in Albany) on the way home tonight. Talked to Troy (such a lovely chap) he reckons the KTMs wouldnt be ideal for us due to the fact they are so damn tall! Had a look in @ Haldane in Ellerslie as well and sat on a 08 DR650. They certainly have a hard seat but how can you complain about the price? $7999 + on road is a shitload of bike for your $$. The savings can be well used for accessories and mods (like a gel seat for eg).

One other question came out of my tyre kicking today - Is a DRZ400 worth going for? Has it got enough stonk for road riding and how are they for trails. Sorry if Im going in circles here but if I can get as much info, I can make a better informed decision on what we should be looking at. :cool:

[pete376403]

Jeez, I'm like a cracked record on this. '08KLR, '08KLR, '08KLR.
The new ones are a long way improved over the older models in terms of comfort, wind protection, luggage carrying (standard,not aftermarket), brakes, suspension, lighting. Still have the same stone-axe reliablity, large fuel capacity.

And there's nothing cheaper on the road except a DR - but you'll spend more than the difference on a DR getting it to the same level as the KLR. The XT is several thousand more, the BMW Dakar (do they still make them?) is many thousands more.

[cooneyr]

Jeez, I'm like a cracked record on this. '08KLR, '08KLR, '08KLR.
The new ones are a long way improved over the older models in terms of comfort, wind protection, luggage carrying (standard,not aftermarket), brakes, suspension, lighting. Still have the same stone-axe reliablity, large fuel capacity.

And there's nothing cheaper on the road except a DR - but you'll spend more than the difference on a DR getting it to the same level as the KLR. The XT is several thousand more, the BMW Dakar (do they still make them?) is many thousands more.

I'll be a cracked record as well then - trail riding was mentioned. If you want to include some trail riding the KLR is at the wrong end of the scale. No doubt you are correct about DR vs KLR for gravel and sealed roads though.


Had a look in @ Haldane in Ellerslie as well and sat on a 08 DR650. They certainly have a hard seat but how can you complain about the price? ........

One other question came out of my tyre kicking today - Is a DRZ400 worth going for? Has it got enough stonk for road riding and how are they for trails. ......

The DRZ400 is a much better trail bike than the DR650 but it is getting up in height again and they tend to be pretty revvy on the road. From what I know they will pull out to 140kph but they are not really geared for long distance highway running. This could be fixed with new sprockets but it would ruin the trail gearing.

Oh and you complain about the DR650's seat then mention a DRZ400 in the next para. Have a look at a DRZ 400 seat before complaining about the DR650 seat :D The DRZ400 seat makes the DR650 seat look positively comfy.

Cheers R

[clint640]

I'll be a cracked record as well then - trail riding was mentioned. If you want to include some trail riding the KLR is at the wrong end of the scale. No doubt you are correct about DR vs KLR for gravel and sealed roads though.
Cheers R

I concur. The option of a lower seat on the DR is also a big plus for n00b offroadability, as is the narrower width which makes it easier to get a foot down.

Cheers
Clint

[Ixion]

One other question came out of my tyre kicking today - Is a DRZ400 worth going for? Has it got enough stonk for road riding and how are they for trails. Sorry if Im going in circles here but if I can get as much info, I can make a better informed decision on what we should be looking at. :cool:

I tried a DRZ400 before getting the XT (old model, aircooled XT). It would be a better off roader I think, but at motorway speeds it felt like it was thrashing its guts out. Comfortable cruising would only be about 80kph.

Really, for off road, 250cc is the ideal size. But a trail 250 is going to be a sad business on a long haul on seal.

[oldguy]

could try the DRZ400SM I think they are around 10 or 11grand thou.

[warewolf]

I tried a DRZ400 before getting the XT (old model, aircooled XT). It would be a better off roader I think, but at motorway speeds it felt like it was thrashing its guts out. Comfortable cruising would only be about 80kph.Ya kidding, right? My DR-Z250 was happy cruising at 110, except into a stiff breeze. Judging by the extra grunt I'd expect the 400 to do a lot better than 80. Even the DR200 would zoom along at 110 much of the time.

"Felt like it was thrashing its guts out" can be a red herring though. The 200 had a rough patch in the upper midrange before it came on song in the top end. If you thought that was all it could do you'd be mighty disappointed.

[Ixion]

The operative word was 'cruising'. It would have done more (not my bike so I didn't fancy finding out). But if I have 200km on seal to do each way I certainly don't want to do the whole way in the "upper mid range" , let alone flat out. Another matter if you only need to ride 20 or 30km to get off road. Like I said, it's somewhat of a Dorkland specific problem

[warewolf]

If you are marooned in dorkland (as the Qks are) you have to tackle at least 100km or so of highway before you get to anywhere interesting for gravel/off road.How many hundreds of thousands of times have I told you not to exaggerate? :bleh:

AKL CBD to bottom of the Bombays is 50km. You can turn off SH1 well before that and cruise out through Runciman or Nikau Rd, etc etc to Tuakau. Cross the Waikato R and you are in adventure territory - without leaving SH22 if you listen to all the down-country moaners on the last Grand Challenge! May not always be gravel but plenty of more interesting options than the main highway.

To the W/NW you hit the beach well before 100km.

One of the joys of adventure bikes, particularly the smaller ones, is keeping the thing zooming. You can't make up for lousy apex speed by cracking the throttle. You make use of the more compliant suspension and become more engaged in 'the ride', same enjoyment, lower number on the speedo.

[warewolf]

The operative word was 'cruising'. It would have done more (not my bike so I didn't fancy finding out). But if I have 200km on seal to do each way I certainly don't want to do the whole way in the "upper mid range" , let alone flat out.Tain't nothing wrong with cruising in the top end, it's still cruising. The bike's got the revs, why not use 'em??

[awayatc]

Seems no one has ridden a XT660R? Would it be better to have fuel injection over carbs or is it all in the eye of the beholder?


Carbs I can fix, fuelinjection I need to go to the dealer....
Carbs use a bit more fuel though...
:mellow:

[Qkchk]

After reading your guys posts, the 400 could be a goer. A 250 is just way to small for us (would ring its neck off) and a 650 could also be the way but might be a tad more work.......... Guess we will have to take them all out for a spin and see want fits the glove.

[Crisis management]

The operative word was 'cruising'. It would have done more (not my bike so I didn't fancy finding out). But if I have 200km on seal to do each way I certainly don't want to do the whole way in the "upper mid range" , let alone flat out. Another matter if you only need to ride 20 or 30km to get off road. Like I said, it's somewhat of a Dorkland specific problem

Ixion, from Hillsborough it's 30 minutes to gravel north of here, 40 minutes to gravel south of here, I can do a beach ride on Muriwai, get stuck in Woodhill and find all sorts of little interesting places to poke around in.
It is a pain getting out of the city, and I envy the likes of Nordie boy in Nelson but there's still a lot of fun to be had without spending more than a few hours on the bike.

Quickies, I think you need to be looking at DR650's unless you want to seriously trail ride, the smaller bikes are ok but if you want to do a decent day of adventure riding on them the 650 is better.
Size wise, I'm 175 cm (5'9") tall, my DR is set as high as possible and I don't have any problems with it, ok it's a bit tippy toeish at some times but nothing you can't work around. If its a real issue, set the rear preload lower and you wont have any problems.

[clint640]

After reading your guys posts, the 400 could be a goer. A 250 is just way to small for us (would ring its neck off) and a 650 could also be the way but might be a tad more work.......... Guess we will have to take them all out for a spin and see want fits the glove.

Yep, definitely ride a few & see what ya like.

Be aware of the seat height on the DRZ400 though. They are narrower than a lot of the big bikes which makes a difference but they're still high, with the chair at 935mm only 10mm shy of a KTM 640 Adv. If you can wait a couple of months for the KTM 690 Enduro pictured above that will be a better bike in every way (apart from a touch less suspension travel) than a DRZ400, at the same weight, with a lower seat height at 910mm. It'll still be higher than a DR650's 890mm std / 865mm lowered though, & it'll cost more of course.

It's a pity there aren't more 400 trail-adventure bikes like the DRZ out there as it's a good size for NZ. Something like an updated e-start XR400 would be a good tool.

Cheers
Clint

[Transalper]

...
Size wise, I'm 175 cm (5'9") tall, my DR is set as high as possible and I don't have any problems with it, ok it's a bit tippy toeish at some times but nothing you can't work around. If its a real issue, set the rear preload lower and you wont have any problems.Messing with spring preloads is not a good way to adjust ride height since doing that affects handling and after all it's handling that you set the preload for.

[Crisis management]

Messing with spring preloads is not a good way to adjust ride height since doing that affects handling and after all it's handling that you set the preload for.

Reasonable point, but the DR has poor suspension at the best of times and having ridden them with the rear set both soft and hard, I can't see any "handling" problems for adventure riding. On the road it just wallows a bit more when soft but doesn't stop you riding off the edge of the tyres and off road, well, it's a bit soft anyway so a bit less preload just means you bottom out sooner.
Adjusting the preload is an easy way of dealing with seat height tho when you're starting out, if good suspension is a requirement they probably need to be looking at KTM's rather than DRs.

[Transalper]

But the 650 has seat height adjustment available straight out of the box.
Surely you know about the second shock position on the rear linkages and the internal spacer change on the forks, with those features already there I wouldn't want to wind off the spring trying to acheieve the same effect. I've ridden mine with spring at several levels and maybe it's just my imagination but I reckon it made a difference in the dirt.

Do we digress.... DR650 would and is still be my choice. Couldn't go everywhere I take the CRF with the same enjoyment level but can go far enough and I do still enjoy a good all day sealed road run and touring on it.

[Crisis management]

But the 650 has seat height adjustment available straight out of the box.


Correct, but it's a more "permanent" setting change than 5 minutes with a hammer and punch winding off a bit of preload.
My thinking had been that initially they may have some concern over the seat height, it can be a bit daunting if your used to flat footing it everytime, but that after a bit of getting used to the bike the seat height would become less of an issue and the preload would be wound back on. It just seemed a simple way of solving a problem (seat height) that seemed to be a concern at this stage.
Like yourself, I think the DR is great all round bike, and I would hate them to be put off over something like seat height at this stage.

[Bass]

Reasonable point, but the DR has poor suspension at the best of times and having ridden them with the rear set both soft and hard, I can't see any "handling" problems for adventure riding. On the road it just wallows a bit more when soft but doesn't stop you riding off the edge of the tyres and off road, well, it's a bit soft anyway so a bit less preload just means you bottom out sooner.
Adjusting the preload is an easy way of dealing with seat height tho when you're starting out, if good suspension is a requirement they probably need to be looking at KTM's rather than DRs.

How do you make the ride soft or hard with the preload?
It's the same spring, it will move the same amount for the same load CHANGE regardless of where you set the preload.
Now making it high or low, I can understand.
However it also has a progressive linkage and so lowering it (softening it in your terms) actually increases the damping rate and the spring rate. So the real effect is to harden it surely?

Yeah, I know. Pedantic SOB

[Crisis management]

Yeah, I know. Pedantic SOB

I hate pedants, now if Warewolf turns up as well, I'm offing myself.

Putting it in my terms.....if I wind off the lock nutty things under the seat the back of the bike gets lower and sits even more lowrerer (technical term) when my delicate arse gets sat on it so my feet touch the ground easily.

If I do this the up and down suspensiony things still work ok for me and i don't fall off any more than I do now (at least once a day).

Happy now?? I hope it rains in Papakura.......rushes out to do rain dance

[Bass]

Happy now?? I hope it rains in Papakura.......rushes out to do rain dance

Thanks mate, the garden really needs it and if you could send some Ducatijim's way he would be really grateful, cos he needs it even more.

Anyway, just between you and me, I would not be at all surprised if the Quiks end up with a pair of DR's for all the reasons already mentioned. The price is really hard to go past at the moment.

Oh and I can understand why your arse is so delicate since you are still on the standard seat. When I have the Ohlins done, you can take her for another blast and you will be spoiled forever with your arse Corbin cosseted

[warewolf]

I hate pedants, now if Warewolf turns up as well, I'm offing myself.No need for that but if you do, do it in Papakura so the rain will wash the blood away :D

Reckon if they go for DRs, they should try it out before they take delivery: a good test is to come to a stop perpendicular to the kerb with the front wheel up on it. If lowering is warranted, get the dealer to make the proper adjustments as part of the deal. At the first service, again if it is felt warranted, swap them back to the higher setting. Change the fork oil while it is apart, something that is not usually done but could be worthwhile.

But these folks are 5'8" with some dirt experience so shortening may not be a priority.

[Qkchk]

But these folks are 5'8" with some dirt experience so shortening may not be a priority.

Ask me anything about Road Bikes and Im sure I can tell you what you need to know, but when it comes down to figuring out what would be the best adventure bike for us............ :scratch:

Done more research on the DR650 and the DRZ400E. The 400 is the road going one selling for $9995. The reviews on this bike make it a good contender (im sure it would be very capable on the road in adventure setup), only issue I can see with the bike is the taller seat. Perhaps getting a 'tard kit for it wouldnt be a bad thing either, making it a more versatile bike. There is one for sale on Tardme but we arent quite ready to buy yet.

Sat on a DR650 yesterday, felt heavier than expected however assuming riding one around for a couple of hours I guess you just 'acclimatise' to the feel of the bike. Still got to go and look at the KLR650 which I might try to do this arvo.....

With Adventure riding, what would be the hardest terrain that you would come across? The kind of riding we wish to get into is like the Safari (http://www.adventurerides.co.nz/yamaha/New%20Safari%20Booking%20Form.pdf) they have down in the South Island this weekend. A mixture of Road, gravel, 4wd tracks, water crossings, walking tracks etc... Not too interested in mud/hard core stuff/jumping over logs etc...

BTW Thanks for all the input and please carry on with the constructive banter! :)

[Bass]

Sat on a DR650 yesterday, felt heavier than expected however assuming riding one around for a couple of hours I guess you just 'acclimatise' to the feel of the bike. Still got to go and look at the KLR650 which I might try to do this arvo.....
:)
When making this same comparason, what it came down to for me was that there is nearly 30 kg difference in weight between the 2 machines. The KLR is a nice bit of kit - no mistake - but I bought a DR. I have already found that when it is lying down (bugger, how did that happen?) with a fair weight of luggage on the back, I can still pick it up; not easily, but I CAN do it. I am not confident that I could do the same with the KLR

[carver]

DR 650, no question

ridden the XT660x, and it wasnt as good as it should have been

owned the KLR, but its pretty much a road bike (big, tall and heavy)

the DR was always my favourite

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61685&d=1179653562

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61686&d=1179653562

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61690&d=1179653716

[warewolf]

With Adventure riding, what would be the hardest terrain that you would come across? The kind of riding we wish to get into is like the Safari (http://www.adventurerides.co.nz/yamaha/New%20Safari%20Booking%20Form.pdf) they have down in the South Island this weekend. A mixture of Road, gravel, 4wd tracks, water crossings, walking tracks etc... Not too interested in mud/hard core stuff/jumping over logs etc...Adventure is where you find it :niceone: That stuff is what the majority of us on here do, except we organise it ourselves.

The hardest terrain would be either loose beach sand (upsets people who haven't spent a lot of time riding in Woodhill forest :laugh:) or wet clay. A slick or boggy steep surface is the thing that stops most people. The heavier your bike or slicker your tyres, then the more you need rider skill. Adventure rides don't tend to have jumps & logs, although frequently there are humps in open paddocks or contour banks that can be used at your discretion. :devil2:

Sometimes you have no real choice about mud, it's a product of the terrain and the weather. It is not uncommon to find easy trails (roads even) have become quite fun slick clay with rain, at which point you wish you'd gone for the chunkier tyres. Several years ago on an adventure ride, I was in a small group that included a couple of former national enduro champions and a novice. It had rained but was clear when we started the last 40 minute loop. It took us 5 hours to complete that loop. The prior year they'd had R100GSs do it on dual-purpose tyres. The next year in the dry I couldn't believe how short that loop was, nor how easy it was.

A few of the Dusty Butters found the Porika Track a challenge. It was dry and steep with loose gravel and boulders... and that was just on the down journey!

[Qkchk]

DR 650, no question

ridden the XT660x, and it wasnt as good as it should have been

owned the KLR, but its pretty much a road bike (big, tall and heavy)

the DR was always my favourite



Thanks, your opinion is making the decision easier. Seems the DR650 is a great all-rounder with a terrific $$$ tag. How well does the DR650 sit on the road? 120kph no problem? Nice pics BTW!:niceone:

[Qkchk]

The hardest terrain would be either loose beach sand (upsets people who haven't spent a lot of time riding in Woodhill forest :laugh:) or wet clay.


Ive done a bit of deep sand stuff and know it can be hard work. Thats why Im a bit cautious about the size of the DR650.... but I dont want a 250.

[Bass]

One of the downsides of the DR (and there are a few) is that it is the lowest powered of the group. Yes it will cruise at 120 kph and will do (I think) around 145 - 150 flat out. However, 120 is at the top end of its happy cruising range. It is noticeably happier at 110.

You will disagree with these numbers if you take one for a thrash, but the DR speedos are notoriously optimistic. Mine overreads by just on 10%. The numbers I have given are the real values.

[Transalper]

Id say they top out a bit faster than that, I like to cruise at an indicated 110 to 115km/hr, I've seen an indicated 170km/hr on the track, take 10% off that would make it about 153km/hr but judging by other bikes i've run next to either we all have dicky speedo readings or it just isn't that far out on my bike... more like closer to 5% I thought.
Either way like Bass says..
You will disagree with these numbers if you take one for a thrash It's not an issue while actually riding it.

Also that was standard motor, with one tooth down on the front and stock rear gearing. Flat/calm day. A strong head wind gust will knock some out of it.
Do we start talking about compromise now again?

[XRKID]

it would be a XR no questions asked, my mate has one and they are bloody good, heaps of tourque and not too light but they huel like a train, can get 200kmh out of them sweet for riding the long stretch

[Crisis management]

How do you make the ride soft or hard with the preload?
It's the same spring, it will move the same amount for the same load CHANGE regardless of where you set the preload.
Now making it high or low, I can understand.
However it also has a progressive linkage and so lowering it (softening it in your terms) actually increases the damping rate and the spring rate. So the real effect is to harden it surely?

Yeah, I know. Pedantic SOB

Methinks I've spotted the fallacy in this...........

I take from your comments that you are assuming that when the suspension is fully compressed the spring is also fully compressed but my understanding (note placatory tone in case I've fucked up again) is that the suspension travel is limited by the damper movement not the spring reaching a coil bound condition.
So, by reducing the preload, the spring (when suspension fully compressed) is less compressed than with the preload wound tighter. As the spring is now not fully compressed it must have taken a lighter load to reach this state, ie; a softer suspension.

Prove me wrong ya bastards! :devil2:

To get back on topic and seeing as Honda's were mentioned, Hondahs are ghey!

[warewolf]

I take from your comments that you are assuming that when the suspension is fully compressed the spring is also fully compressed but my understanding (note placatory tone in case I've fucked up again) is that the suspension travel is limited by the damper movement not the spring reaching a coil bound condition.
So, by reducing the preload, the spring (when suspension fully compressed) is less compressed than with the preload wound tighter. As the spring is now not fully compressed it must have taken a lighter load to reach this state, ie; a softer suspension.

Prove me wrong ya bastards! :devil2:All in the name of science! I don't think he's saying that; I'd expect that at both full- and no-preload the spring would not be coil-bound at full suspension compression.

You are right about the load on the spring with less preload: there is less force on it at full compression - in other words, with less preload the suspension will bottom more readily. Adding preload is a stop-gap measure to help reduce bottoming.

However, Bass suggested the ride will be harsher with less preload because the bike will sit further through the rear suspenders' stroke; that is, further up the rising-rate multiplier through the shock linkage. That is why a weak spring over-preloaded will be harsh in the initial travel, and a stronger spring with less preload will be more compliant.

[Edit: As I have said before, suspension is a system and the inter-relationships are important. Static and dynamic behaviour may not be what it seems at first.]

[Bass]

Methinks I've spotted the fallacy in this...........

I take from your comments that you are assuming that when the suspension is fully compressed the spring is also fully compressed but my understanding (note placatory tone in case I've fucked up again) is that the suspension travel is limited by the damper movement not the spring reaching a coil bound condition.
So, by reducing the preload, the spring (when suspension fully compressed) is less compressed than with the preload wound tighter. As the spring is now not fully compressed it must have taken a lighter load to reach this state, ie; a softer suspension.

Prove me wrong ya bastards! :devil2:

To get back on topic and seeing as Honda's were mentioned, Hondahs are ghey!

No - you've bollixed it again
You are quite right in your assertion that the total travel is controlled by the damper stoke. However, if when riding the bike, we come up against either limit, then something is wrong or we are really punishing the bike. For average Joes like us, we really try and set it up so that it is neither topping out or bottoming out. It gets really hard on the arse and the handling goes completely to shit otherwise. It's also important for the rest of this treatise that we consider only the case where the spring is not restrained by the shock having reached either end of its travel limits.
Actually, I just had this whole conversation a couple of days ago in the Cruiser threads.
What it comes down to is that as a reasonable approximation, the spring obeys Hookes law. What Mr Hooke said was that the spring compression is directly proportional to the load placed on it or C = kL where k is some constant which is unique to that particular spring.
Now a direct consequence of this is that, for a given load, the length of the spring is fixed. What that means is, that if we stand the bike on its wheels with your delicate arse and some luggage aboard and then get you to balance with your feet off the ground for a second while we measure the spring length, we will get the same length with that load regardless of what you do to your adjustments.
If you increase the preload, you push down harder on the top of the spring, the shock extends a bit, the swingarm moves down so that the spring length stays the same and the bike stands a bit taller.
At this point, I would like to say that the only thing that has changed is the ride height and if the adjustment is only a small one, then that is essentially true. However, the DR like most modern single shock bikes has a rising rate linkage. This means that as you compress the rear end the shock and spring travel rate increases with a maximum when fully compressed. This is a cool idea cos it makes the rear end nice and soft in the small stuff but highly resistent to bottoming out in the nasties.
However, if you think this through, it means that as you increase the preload and jack the bike up, you are moving the linkage to the extended or softer end of its curve. Although it's instinctively quite wrong, as you increase the preload, you actually soften the ride.

[cooneyr]

.......With Adventure riding, what would be the hardest terrain that you would come across? The kind of riding we wish to get into is like the Safari (http://www.adventurerides.co.nz/yamaha/New%20Safari%20Booking%20Form.pdf) they have down in the South Island this weekend. A mixture of Road, gravel, 4wd tracks, water crossings, walking tracks etc... Not too interested in mud/hard core stuff/jumping over logs etc.......

As others have said logs/jumps etc are pretty much at your discretion. :D As time goes on and your skills improve you will find that you can punt a big heavy Pig (ausi's nickname for for a DR650) over some pretty interesting stuff.


....120kph no problem?

I recon wind loading on yourself becomes a problem long before the bike runs out of grunt. They will easily and happily pull 120 indicated continuously. Factory rated top speed is 160. They will haul out to 140 with some left in an appropriate situation :D


One of the downsides of the DR (and there are a few) is that it is the lowest powered of the group. Yes it will cruise at 120 kph and will do (I think) around 145 - 150 flat out. However, 120 is at the top end of its happy cruising range. It is noticeably happier at 110.

The DRZ400 and DR650 have similar amounts of tourque and power but it is about how it is delivered (i.e. where in the rev range) and the gearing. The DR650 would be nicer to ride at 120 on a motorway for any length of time.



........However, if you think this through, it means that as you increase the preload and jack the bike up, you are moving the linkage to the extended or softer end of its curve. Although it's instinctively quite wrong, as you increase the preload, you actually soften the ride.

This is all good and I completely understand/agree. One question though. What if you are a fat/big person like me and you increasing the spring preload to get the ride height back to around (still too low) the intended height i.e. get the ride/dynamic sag to the correct value? Surely for me to ride it should be no harsher (if this is the correct word) than little WW (I'm just jealous :baby:) on a different DR, set at the same ride/dynamic sag? I would guess that the damping (especially the rebound) is too soft in this situation though so it is a bit to "springy"?

Cheers R

[Crisis management]

I reckon I at least scored some points!

Thanks for the explanation you two, I will go back to the suspension and have a poke at it until I fully understand what it means (this may take some time).

[GaZBur]

One of the downsides of the DR (and there are a few) is that it is the lowest powered of the group. Yes it will cruise at 120 kph and will do (I think) around 145 - 150 flat out. However, 120 is at the top end of its happy cruising range. It is noticeably happier at 110.

You will disagree with these numbers if you take one for a thrash, but the DR speedos are notoriously optimistic. Mine overreads by just on 10%. The numbers I have given are the real values.

I still disagree with those numbers and have electronic timers for proof.
Speedo was not that optimistic. When the GPS recorded 160 Kph it was still indicating under 170. I didn't change from 4th to 5th till i hit an indicated 153kph where it is close to losing spark. Have now geared down coz Nordie worked out standard gearing was good for 186 kph and there is no way it will pull that. I feel confident 173 is realistic with 1 tooth smaller front sproket and will tell you later if it makes it. According to radar I was exiting the standing quarter at 147.3 and the speedo was nearer 155 and it was still picking up pace steadily.
If you want to know about DR650's you must read Nordies thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=39743)and the stuff I put in the DR650 thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=50896&page=3)about the fun I have had racing mine.
Whatever you get - hope you enjoy yourself as much as some of us do.

[Bass]

This is all good and I completely understand/agree. One question though. What if you are a fat/big person like me and you increasing the spring preload to get the ride height back to around (still too low) the intended height i.e. get the ride/dynamic sag to the correct value? Surely for me to ride it should be no harsher (if this is the correct word) than little WW (I'm just jealous :baby:) on a different DR, set at the same ride/dynamic sag? I would guess that the damping (especially the rebound) is too soft in this situation though so it is a bit to "springy"?

Cheers R

Firstly, I make no claims to fame in this area and there are internal complexities in the shock innards which have pro and cons that I know nothing about. However, as I understand it you are essentially correct and the damping shortfall would apply to both compression and rebound damping. This is one of the really irritating things about the DR where the rebound is not adjustable, because to my mind (tiny as it is) the rebound damping is actually more important than the compression.

Also, despite the mathematics, you wind up with a (relatively) soft spring which is deeply compressed where a stiffer spring with less compression would serve you better

[Bass]

I still disagree with those numbers and have electronic timers for proof.

Fair enough.
However, I never said the speedos were all out by the same amount. If yours is out by less than mine, then that's great for you.
If yours is faster than mine with you head down/arse up on a track, wringing its neck and streamlining yourself as much as possible, then cool. It sounds like buckets of fun.
Perhaps I should have been more specific, but I was referring to me, sitting upright, 3 axehandles across the gut and an expedition bag on the back

[tri boy]

Buy Suzi. Whip the forks n shock to RT.
Get the seat/ fuelrange sorted. Bobs ya uncle, marge ya aunty, herman's a German, and I havn't a clue about it really.:dodge:

[Bass]

Buy Suzi. Whip the forks n shock to RT.
Get the seat/ fuelrange sorted. Bobs ya uncle, marge ya aunty, herman's a German, and I havn't a clue about it really.:dodge:

That's pretty much what Ducatijim and I are doing as you know. It doesn't come cheap however and the total bill would nigh on get you a KTM.

[warewolf]

What if you are a fat/big person like me and you increasing the spring preload to get the ride height back to around (still too low) the intended height i.e. get the ride/dynamic sag to the correct value? Surely for me to ride it should be no harsher (if this is the correct word) than little WW (I'm just jealous :baby:) on a different DR, set at the same ride/dynamic sag? I would guess that the damping (especially the rebound) is too soft in this situation though so it is a bit to "springy"?Preload is primarily to tune your weight/ride height within the range covered by the spring. It is not there to make up for the wrong spring. I believe our weights are, ahem, too far apart to use the same spring effectively. The KTM SX/EXC spring charts show each spring covering just 6kg optimally, overlapping the adjacent ones by 2-3kg, ie a different spring every 10kg. Adventure bikes would be less sensitive as the bike's mass is bigger - the rider's mass is smaller relative to the bike's.

The ratio of static (unladen) sag vs rider (laden) sag shows if your spring is correct. I think this test shows where you are sitting in the linkage's curve or range of travel.

Damping is velocity/displacement sensitive; it is reactive. With less rising rate, there is more travel for a given load, so more damping = harsher? And again, spring is the prime factor at work, the damping is secondary to that, just fine tuning.