Un Fucking Believable!

[Robbo]

Family told to repay $19,000 in Burton case.
The family of a man murdered by Graeme Burton have been told to repay up to $19,000 in legal aid granted for an inquest into his death.
But while taxpayers will pay about $40,000 for double-killer Burton's amputation and prosthetic leg - a result of the shootout that followed Mr Kuchenbecker's murder - she has been told to repay legal fees for a four-day coroner's inquest at $25 a week.

What are your thoughts on this one?? :(

[What?]

Well, this site should be able to raise some 2000-odd letters to MP's for starters. Let the buggers know that Joe Public ain't impressed.

[Harry33]

Yeah pretty fucked up...hopefully some people will get behind her and help cover the costs. But yeah it's a disgrace, just another example of a fucked justice system.

[duckonin]

:angry2:Refuse to pay, jump up and down throw stones at the beehive ect, get fairgo onto the job, don't let the victims become the victims, if the idiots in our Govt let this happen remember them all !!! when it is time to put their sorry arses back into power (but who would want to)?

[Pussy]

Posted in the other thread... this IS WRONG. The family should be getting Burton's 40 grand (x10), and burton should be paying the 19 grand. I'm ashamed to be a kiwi when this sort of shit is permitted to happen

[DingoZ]

A donation setup should be done. Wouldn't take much for an old fashioned whip around....:) If they are unable to get it wiped..... As they have been encouraged to do so....

[Swoop]

The bill should be passed on to burton (deliberate non-caps of name) and he should pay this.
He is probably getting ACC payments for the loss of his leg and "emotional stress"...

[Swoop]

A donation setup should be done. Wouldn't take much for an old fashioned whip around....:) If they are unable to get it wiped..... As they have been encouraged to do so....
Why the fuck should the public have to have a fuckin' "pass the hat"??
The retarded gubbinment made the stupid rules. She shouldn't pay a cent!
Much the same as schools having to have "donations" to keep the school running because the treasury drip-feeds sod all funding to them!
Luckily cullens' budget surplus is growing for the big 2008 vote-buying extravaganza.

[Sully60]

A donation setup should be done. Wouldn't take much for an old fashioned whip around....:) If they are unable to get it wiped..... As they have been encouraged to do so....

That's a really nice sentiment Dingoz, I admire this and would happily contribute but just paying the money is not the point.

When did this country start putting the rights of the perpetrator before those of the victim?
The Human rights movement has a lot to answer for here IMO, I believe in equal rights for everyone, but when such a heinous crime is committed the convicted criminal should be made to give up some of theirs.

My views are made more clearly here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1330851&postcount=7)

And why should the family of Karl have to pay for an inquest in their sons’ death which in my opinion was directly caused by failures in the public service .
That's right the public service paid for by all taxpayers to serve the public. And in this instance we have all been let down on two fronts , firstly the corrections system that allowed a person who was obviously a danger to society back into it and the fact the none has been held accountable for this failure.:mad:
This is where things have gone wrong in my opinion and I am truly saddened that it took this horrible incident and the subsequent events to bring this to the fore.


Refuse to pay, jump up and down throw stones at the beehive ect, get fairgo onto the job, don't let the victims become the victims, if the idiots in our Govt let this happen remember them all !!! when it is time to put their sorry arses back into power (but who would want to)?

Yeah too right!
I will be seriously looking at how I vote next election. Like Pussy said things like this make me feel ashamed and I feel this country is far too good to be ashamed of.
I will be writing a letter which is a big step for me but I've gotten to the stage where I feel positive action is required. It’s really about time we all started to get serious about getting things right for this country and if one positive thing comes out of this it’s that it sparked relatively ambivalent people like me into action.

[yungatart]

Victimise the victim again??

WTF is wrong with this picture?
If there are costs incurred as a result of someone's illegal actions then the costs should be borne by the perp, not the victim.

This is just wrong on every level. That family has suffered enough already.

Makes me ashamed to be Kiwi.

[YellowDog]

This is adding insult and potentially life destruction to extreme injury and deep emotional trauma.

If such a decision was to result in individuals completely losing it and potentially taking a meat cleaver to someone appearing to be endorsing such a deverstating message, whom would be responsible and also accountable for the cause and effect?

Perhaps there should be some kind of training made available to such decsion makers to stop them being such dickheads?

[Pussy]

That's a really nice sentiment Dingoz, I admire this and would happily contribute but just paying the money is not the point.

When did this country start putting the rights of the perpetrator before those of the victim?
The Human rights movement has a lot to answer for here IMO, I believe in equal rights for everyone, but when such a heinous crime is committed the convicted criminal should be made to give up some of theirs.

And why should the family of Karl have to pay for an inquest in their sons’ death which in my opinion was directly caused by failures in the public service .
That's right the public service paid for by all taxpayers to serve the public. And in this instance we have all been let down on two fronts , firstly the corrections system that allowed a person who was obviously a danger to society back into it and the fact the none has been held accountable for this failure.:mad:
This is where things have gone wrong in my opinion and I am truly saddened that it took this horrible incident and the subsequent events to bring this to the fore.

Yeah too right!
I will be seriously looking at how I vote next election. Like Pussy said things like this make me feel ashamed and I feel this country is far too good to be ashamed of.
I will be writing a letter which is a big step for me but I've gotten to the stage where I feel positive action is required. It’s really about time we all started to get serious about getting things right for this country and if one positive thing comes out of this it’s that it sparked relatively ambivalent people like me into action.

"you must spread some reputation etc..." Well said, Sully. This sort of crap MUST stop. I can't imagine how the victim's family must be feeling

[Cruisin' Craig]

And why should the family of Karl have to pay for an inquest in their sons’ death which in my opinion was directly caused by failures in the public service .



Damn straight it was a failure of the public service. Not only was it wrong to release him back into society when they did, but check out the rough sequence of events:

Dec 22: Court issues the warrant to arrest Burton. It is typed up but is not ready for the orderly to collect by the time he leaves.

Dec 23: The Dominion Post publishes a story reporting Burton is wanted for 8arrest. Police do not see the story.

Dec 27: Court reopens after Christmas. An officer clears the warrants tray and sends Burton's warrant to prosecutions.

Jan 3: Prosecutions staff return from holiday and send it to internal records. Armed police are called to reports that Burton and an associate are attacking a man in an inner-city apartment.

Jan 4: Internal records enter the warrant on the police system.

Jan 6: Burton is shot and arrested after murdering Karl Kuchenbecker.

Perhaps the warrant for the arrest of a known unpredictably violent and police hating criminal could have been dealt with with a little more urgency?

[banditrider]

Hard to comprehend really. The twats that come up with this sort of crap should all be stuck in a cell with Burton for a while. The family should refuse to pay - be interested to see how far they pushed it. What're they gonna do lock them up too? Probably - it's ok to butcher someone but not to owe the government any money.

As for Burton - still waiting for the day he tries to take on someone a bit bigger & nastier than him. Like to see his head amputated.

[Stickchick]

Why the hell should the family pay? They are already paying for the fact that they have lost a father, son, brother and friend for doing something he loved only to be in the wrong place at the wrong time due to the system not working and letting this idiot out on parole. Wainuiomata is a small community where everyone knows everyone and I'm pretty sure (even though I don't live there anymore) that the community will band together to help the family should this be the case. When Graham Burton shot Karl it rocked the whole of Wainui. Everyone I know was absolutely devastated that this could happen to someone in our little swamp. Its absolutely disgusting what is being asked of the family and I for one would be more than happy to help the family out should the decision not be reversed.

[Headbanger]

Anyone near the beehive at the moment?

Anychance they could swing by and give Helen a couple good hard punches to the face?

Just top let her know, how fuckin unimpressed we are.

And wtf is with the constant killings over the last couple of weeks?

[DingoZ]

Why the fuck should the public have to have a fuckin' "pass the hat"??
The retarded gubbinment made the stupid rules. She shouldn't pay a cent!
Much the same as schools having to have "donations" to keep the school running because the treasury drip-feeds sod all funding to them!
Luckily cullens' budget surplus is growing for the big 2008 vote-buying extravaganza.

Was not meaning to imply that it should be the case.... I think the family in question should not have been asked to pay in the first place. A "Pass the Hat" situation, has helped hundreds of families in times of crisis and in times of heartache. Fire. flood. Famine etc.. Just think this qualifies as a good enough reason to give. And if done in a loud enough manner, maybe it might make a statement....


Victimise the victim again??

WTF is wrong with this picture?
If there are costs incurred as a result of someone's illegal actions then the costs should be borne by the perp, not the victim.

This is just wrong on every level. That family has suffered enough already.

Makes me ashamed to be Kiwi.

Agreed....

[rphenix]

So what happens if they dont pay exactly? Debt collectors?

[RT527]

So what happens if they dont pay exactly? Debt collectors?

love to see them collect with about 200 kiwibikers standing behind the Family ...hahahaha

[DingoZ]

Clipped from New Article
:
Justice Minister Annette King is alarmed the Legal Services Agency has asked the widow of a man murdered by Graeme Burton has been asked to pay $19,000 for the inquest into his death.

"If the legal aid system is producing this sort of result for victims, it has to be changed urgently," Ms King said.

"I have already spoken to the Secretary for Justice and asked for an urgent report that will examine what changes are needed to ensure victims are treated in a caring and compassionate way."

Karl Kuchenbecker was shot by Burton while quad biking in the Wainuiomata Hills on January 6.

His former partner was involved in a four-day inquest in November and was granted legal aid.


Legal Services Agency manager of legal aid grants Robyn Nicholas told the Dominion Post the $19,000 figure was a theoretical maximum and the true amount would likely be less.

The woman, who is on the domestic purposes benefit to support the couple's two sons, has been encouraged to apply for a writeoff when the case ends and her payments have been suspended for six months to allow this.

She told the newspaper regardless of whether the bill was wiped, it was a shock to be asked to pay it at all.

Burton was shot in the leg during his arrest and received about $40,000 worth of medical care for an amputation and prosthetic leg at the taxpayer's expense.

Mr Kuchenbecker's father Paul said it was astounding victims were being asked to pay while criminals often got a free ride.

"Victims do need to be represented. It's not their fault they're in the bloody inquest," he said.

Lawyer for the family Nikki Pender said it was important to honour the Victims Rights Act.

"It says you're entitled to legal services. It doesn't read you should be entitled to a loan to pay for your legal services."

Ms King said a Select Commitee recently presented the Government with a report on victim's rights.

"The Government is required to respond within three months. Work is already underway to address the recommendations within the report, and this includes work on legal aid for victims of crime.

"I am determined that 2008 will be the year in which victim's rights are properly addressed."

[ynot slow]

Nice farken system we have,victims have to pay for home,insurances,car clothing,education and power, food,the perpertrator gets all this free,why the hell couldn't the cop do the right thing.Oh not to mentio immediate hospital treatment and ability to recieve payment for injury according to wording of ACC act.

Remember which political party is in charge people,and no I am not a staunch National voter,been known to vote Act,Social Credit as well as National,never voted Labour though.And won't.

[Grahameeboy]

Bit much granting the legal aid in the first place and then asking for it back.

I am sure that commonsense will prevail in this one.

[HenryDorsetCase]

There's no justice like angry mob justice, huh?

Let me put an opposing view: (regardless of my personal opinion)

When someone signs up for any form of legal aid, it is made very very clear to them that the legal aid they receive is a loan to them to enable them to take part in whatever legal proceedings they are unable to fund themselves. So the fact they receive a bill, and that the bill is a loan which requires security (usually by way of a registered charge over their house) WILL NOT be a surprise to these people.

That they chose to go public is also perhaps not surprising.

That it is an election year and this has hit all the news outlets on a day when some scumbag was arrested for the murder of a 22yo shop assistant, working in a family business, will not have escaped the Trotsky-ites that run Helengrad.

You can be almost certain that they will never have to pay this bill. What that doesn't help is the literally thousands of other less high profile and maybe less deserving cases that dont get this publicity.

Oh, you say, $19000 for four days work? that lawyer must be rolling in it. Not necessarily. Legal aid work is almost without exception done by people looking for the experience, or who can't get other better paying work. the rates are risible, and not only that you have to spend just as much money fighting the legal aid people to get approval to do the work than doing the work. And that $19000 probably represented four or five months work. And I bet that if whoever it was, if billing the thing properly, (not on legal aid) the bill would be considerably more. I tell clients that they should expect their costs to work out at around $10k/day for every day at court. More if there is a QC or huge money involved.

So, you say, its an injustice. Something must be done.

Well you get to have your say this year. Choose wisely.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I am quite sure (though I have not researched it) that Mr Burton's status as a serving prisoner disentitles him to ACC compensation for his injury. IIRC the law was changed when the burglar who fell out the window made a claim a few years ago.

Also, he is serving a sentence of preventative detention, again, IIRC, so there isnt much prospect of him having any payments soon.

No one has asked the question yet, so I will:

"Why did the victims family need to be lawyered up at the Coroner's inquest?"

[HenryDorsetCase]

<snip> Annette King........

"I am determined that 2008 will be the year in which victim's rights are properly addressed."what she meant to say was "IN an election year we can't have this sort of shit going down, and the publics sympathy will be for this woman so no way is she going to have to pay and I will look great and magnanimous, even though there is a mechanism in place, and it seems even a process in train whereby this woman will never be asked to pay $19000 or anything like it."

anyone else sick of this smell?

Politicians = Loathsome scum. No exceptions

[Manxman]

deleted...same points already made.

[Manxman]

what she meant to say was "IN an election year we can't have this sort of shit going down, and the publics sympathy will be for this woman so no way is she going to have to pay and I will look great and magnanimous, even though there is a mechanism in place, and it seems even a process in train whereby this woman will never be asked to pay $19000 or anything like it."

anyone else sick of this smell?

Politicians = Loathsome scum. No exceptions

...what he said.

[Ixion]

I am quite sure (though I have not researched it) that Mr Burton's status as a serving prisoner disentitles him to ACC compensation for his injury. IIRC the law was changed when the burglar who fell out the window made a claim a few years ago.

Also, he is serving a sentence of preventative detention, again, IIRC, so there isnt much prospect of him having any payments soon.

No one has asked the question yet, so I will:

"Why did the victims family need to be lawyered up at the Coroner's inquest?"

Nobody may receive entitlements while in prison. But Burton was not, nor had he escaped. The ACC may apply to the courts for a direction that they may not provide any entitlements, where to do so would be repugnant to natural justice. (Injury etc Compensation Act 2001 SS 121 122) . Whether the ACC have ever made such an application I do not know.

As to the family being "lawyered up": the reality is that the person of trial was Mr Kuchenbecker. To make provision for protection of his reputation etc is , alas, pretty much essential. That is not the theory of it, nor is it how it should be, but it is the reality.

Justice is New Zealand is an entriely saleable commodity. It is auctioned off to whoever has the deepest pockets.

[the mouse]

Certainly have to feel sorry for these victims. Look out for another dip into the "coffers" to pay for the upkeep of the little shit who murdered the young man in the dairy. F##K Em, bring back the guillotinne.

Condolences to Naidu family and people who witnessed this terrible incident.

[doc]

No one has asked the question yet, so I will:

"Why did the victims family need to be lawyered up at the Coroner's inquest?"

I can"t understand this either, what"s happening here ?

[Pex Adams]

It was good to see Annette King say on the news last night that they will not have to pay this bill, as the system was not set up with situations like this particular one in mind.

I had to wonder what situations would require the victim to have to pay for legal costs??? Sounds pretty fucked up to me.

[Freakshow]

Most of the time when reading the paper or listening to the news I hear all of this carry on and it disturbs me that slides past me like water on a ducks back but I guess this happens to most after a while. However hearing that this family who lost thier dad now has a legal bill to pay. I have since heard they won't have to pay it but even receiving a letter advising they do must be a horible feeling for them to have to endure on what is already a crap situation.

This story has been in my head for the last few days and disturbs me. So I want to know is it the sensible sentencing that helps fight for these people as I might try and find a token $$ or two to send their way. Also where am I best to find political parties view points on this, eg what key words should I use to find the info as this is now on my list of reasons to vote.