Staggered formation is wrong

[warewolf]

NighthawkNZ made a comment in another thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1394328&postcount=9) that raised alarm bells with me:

staggered formation is still the best, safest and most accepted group riding formation.This is quite simply, wrong. It has been widely known to be wrong for several decades. I was utterly appalled that the LTNZ & ACC published a 'safety' film in 2005, "Motorcycling in New Zealand: Riding in Groups," suggesting its use.

Why? It leaves riders with no room to manoeuvre and/or in the wrong position on the road. This is demonstrated in the film and can be seen in Nighthawk's attached picture. (I'm not having a go at Nighthawk, he just triggered the train of thought.)

Consider this: bikes staggered at the 2-second interval. Approaching a left curve, the appropriate behaviour is to move to the right wheel track to increase your visibility around the curve. Do this in staggered formation and the 2-second buffer is now sub-1-second (half of 2 seconds minus a bike length). Watch the film. It happens. And no, suddenly spacing back out to 2 seconds in single file is not a solution - and nor is it suggested in the film, anyway.

So in Nighthwak's pic, the left-side riders cannot manoeuvre into the right hand wheel track, the right-side riders cannot manoeuvre into the left hand wheel track. Both riders are compromised.

The answer of course, is single file at 2 seconds, plus breaks in the group to allow following vehicles to pass. That way every rider is at the optimum position on the road without compromise. This has been the accepted group riding strategy since at least the early eighties, as taught by Stay Upright Motorcycle Techniques (http://www.stayupright.com.au/).

What say you?

[Pixie]

I've been saying this for years - but does anybody listen?:angry2:

[Nasty]

I have no problem with stagger .. but I allow 2 seconds from the next rider (who will be not in front of me but to the side) .. I treat the area around me accross the whole lane as my riding area this allows me to utilise it fully in turning whichever way and whereever I am positioned on the road.

If a newbie is riding with me I think this is safest as they then have the whole side of the road and are not riding up the arse of the rider on the side of them while learning how to judge speed.

In other words I think it is taught wrong (if ya know what I mean)!!

[Jantar]

Sorry Warewolf, I'm with Nighthawk and ACC that staggered formation is just fine. In staggered formation the lane is effectively split up the middle into two lanes, and you keep within your own split lane.

So what is wrong is the rider who does as you suggest and moves out from the left hand split lane into the right hand split lane effective now riding in single file. He should move over no further than the center of the total lane, thus leaving the right hand split lane for the rider behind him.

It is not the staggered formation that is wrong, it's that not all riders have learned the art of staggered riding.

[pritch]

The answer of course, is single file at 2 seconds, plus breaks in the group to allow following vehicles to pass.

Allow vehicles to pass? What country was this supposed to be happening in?:whistle:

[Grub]

No issue as far as I can see. Is somebody advocating 2 seconds from the bike in your lane or 2 seconds from th bike next in line? Where did the graphic come from?

I ride, as do most others, 2 secs from the bike next in line (different position, same lane). In that context, staggered is primo because your margin can be as much as 4 secs from the bike directly in front of you.

[warewolf]

In staggered formation the lane is effectively split up the middle into two lanes, and you keep within your own split lane.But you are compromised because you now only have half a lane to play in, and you have another vehicle within your buffer zone, albeit it to the side.

[warewolf]

Is somebody advocating 2 seconds from the bike in your lane or 2 seconds from th bike next in line? Where did the graphic come from?2 secs from the bike in line, 1 sec from the bike on the other side of your lane. Possibly Nighthawk created it, but it is a true representation of the intent of staggered formation.


I ride, as do most others, 2 secs from the bike next in line (different position, same lane). In that context, staggered is primo because your margin can be as much as 4 secs from the bike directly in front of you.Except that normally you should be in the right hand wheel track with a 2 second buffer. If you have the 2 second buffer, there's no need to be in the left hand wheel track - it is no longer staggered formation.

[Grub]

you have the 2 second buffer, there's no need to be in the left hand wheel track - it is no longer staggered formation.

Ahh but there is. Then you have a 4 second buffer. It's more comfortable - and safe.

Regarding the left hand wheel track, I often use it quite deliberately. Coming up to an intersection with cars waiting or approaching from the left, I move left so I'm not masked or hidden by the car in front of me. I also flick my light onto full beam (if it's not there already)

[Jantar]

But you are compromised because you now only have half a lane to play in, and you have another vehicle within your buffer zone, albeit it to the side.

This is where the comment I made about learning the art of staggered riding applies. If you are riding in a group situation then you are not "playing", you are riding. You do still have your buffer zone, because there is a normal gap to the rider in front, and there are is no traffic alongside. If you do need to make a deviation because of an obstruction or similar, then you can, safely and quickly, and still return to your own part of the lane as soon as possible.

[Cruisin' Craig]

NighthawkNZ made a comment in another thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1394328&postcount=9) that raised alarm bells with me:
This is quite simply, wrong. It has been widely known to be wrong for several decades. I was utterly appalled that the LTNZ & ACC published a 'safety' film in 2005, "Motorcycling in New Zealand: Riding in Groups," suggesting its use.

Why? It leaves riders with no room to manoeuvre and/or in the wrong position on the road. This is demonstrated in the film and can be seen in Nighthawk's attached picture. (I'm not having a go at Nighthawk, he just triggered the train of thought.)

Consider this: bikes staggered at the 2-second interval. Approaching a left curve, the appropriate behaviour is to move to the right wheel track to increase your visibility around the curve. Do this in staggered formation and the 2-second buffer is now sub-1-second (half of 2 seconds minus a bike length). Watch the film. It happens. And no, suddenly spacing back out to 2 seconds in single file is not a solution - and nor is it suggested in the film, anyway.

So in Nighthwak's pic, the left-side riders cannot manoeuvre into the right hand wheel track, the right-side riders cannot manoeuvre into the left hand wheel track. Both riders are compromised.

The answer of course, is single file at 2 seconds, plus breaks in the group to allow following vehicles to pass. That way every rider is at the optimum position on the road without compromise. This has been the accepted group riding strategy since at least the early eighties, as taught by Stay Upright Motorcycle Techniques (http://www.stayupright.com.au/).

What say you?

I'll add an opinion to the contrary then eh?

I say that being in staggered formation doesn't mean you have to be closer then two seconds to the bike in front, of course you should still be leaving a gap!

Being in staggered formation also doesn't mean you can't leave breaks for vehicles to pass. As long as the proper gap is maintained, there is plenty of room to manouvre and to ensure you have the space to line up your corners properly.

The negative points that you suggested for group riding, actually apply only to people who ride in a staggered group too closely together.

I support staggered riding, and I believe that there's only a problem when people view it as an alternative to the usual guidelines such as the two-second rule.

[R6_kid]

On straight sections of road it can be great... when it comes to a corner back off from the guy in front a bit and take YOUR OWN LINE through the corner, don't follow the guy in fronts line, or watch where he goes... ride your own bike.

[crashe]

Now just imagine on the Westpac Fundraiser Ride that is coming up in February, if no one did the stagger formation...... 1600 bikes all in single file in the one lane on the motorway...... I am sure the cops would love us.... Not !

Neither would the traffic sitting for a very long time, on the off ramps waiting for the motorway to be opened up again for them to use.


Seriously just do like R6_kid said if out on the open roads or where-ever
On straight sections of road it can be great... when it comes to a corner back off from the guy in front a bit and take YOUR OWN LINE through the corner, don't follow the guy in fronts line, or watch where he goes... ride your own bike.

[Pussy]

I personally like the stagger formation. Went to welly last weekend, rode with Kendog, Mrs Kendog, Jim2,Grub, Lissa, Skelstar etc etc. Without any pre-arranged riding pattern being spoken of. Felt VERY comfortable riding with all you guys, everyone fell in to the staggered formation, all worked nice

[MSTRS]

I've been stagger-riding for years, and so do all my riding mates. Any other way would not feel right. There is a dynamic going on, and everyone just seems to know where and how to position themselves as part of the whole.

[RT527]

Remember ladies and gents, that the 2 sec rule apply s to anything in your lane in front of you...so whether a bike is staggered and to the left of you in your lane you should be two secs from it... so even if he moves into your side of the lane he will still be 2 secs from you...simple eh?!.

[Street Gerbil]

I can see how single file is safer, but staggered formation is fine as long as no one tries to pull wheelies or do some similar shit. And it sure as hell looks awe inspiring.

[Ralph]

To me single file doesn't make sense, always have ridin staggered down straights. usually about 1-2 sec or more from the bike in front of me in my lane for two reasons i can think of right now.

1. Less chance of debris being flicked up from the bike in front hitting my helmet, headlight, paint, radiator etc
2. More visibilty.

The corners are different as I think staying staggered on a corner as a bad idea and should spread out.

[mangell6]

Remember ladies and gents, that the 2 sec rule apply s to anything in your lane in front of you...so whether a bike is staggered and to the left of you in your lane you should be two secs from it... so even if he moves into your side of the lane he will still be 2 secs from you...simple eh?!.

Several years ago a group of friends were riding as we tend to do on a 'trip', there were more than 10 of us and we rode in a staggered formation with the recommended gap between "vehicles" of 2 seconds. This was a previously agreed upon riding formation that we have used many times.

I was riding to the left of the left lane and a wasp entered my full face helmet, as I tend to react severely to their venom I immediately stopped suddenly (emergency braking) and pulled further left. As we were '"touring" this sudden and unexpected action on my part surprised the rider immediately behind me, who was riding to the right of the left lane, who passed me on my right and the person behind them (left/left lane) moved to their right and went past as well.

As has been stated the 2 sec rule is for the vehicle that is next in the "legal" lane and NOT the said vehicle directly in front of you.

As you said having a 2 second rule for the second vehicle in front of you is down right stupid and adds risk.

Mike

PS Jantar, Blackbird and I rode over 6,000 kms together using the staggered method and neither of us had ridden together before. We survived.

[betti]

I reckon stagggered is the way to go, a problem we used to have with learners back in the day when instructing was the "junction shunt", first bike comes to a junction looks right, if the way is clear pulls out, all good.
Unless as happened fairly regularly, they stall or wobble etc. Then rider two, if riding in single file, looks to the right, sees way is clear and accelerates straight into the bike of a (now stalled ) rider one!.
Staggered riding, while not the cure for all ills seems to me to give you the best safety margins.

My two cents.

[Jiminy]

Ahh but there is. Then you have a 4 second buffer. It's more comfortable - and safe.

Regarding the left hand wheel track, I often use it quite deliberately. Coming up to an intersection with cars waiting or approaching from the left, I move left so I'm not masked or hidden by the car in front of me. I also flick my light onto full beam (if it's not there already)

Fully behind you Grub. It should stay 2 seconds from anything in front of you, staggered or not. With more bikes around, things can get messy in case of an emergency, so you can't have too many seconds.

And being in a staggered formation means that you are more visible for the rider ahead, and that you see the rider behind more easily. I also see riders in groups around me as potential hazards, so I keep an eye on them as I do with any other vehicle.

I'm not very convinced by the staggered position in curves, though. However, if you respect the 2 seconds rule, you won't have any problem if you 'unstagger' for the curve. Experienced riders, what's your view here?

[Mental Trousers]

As long as people realise they still require plenty of space around them when riding in staggered formation there's no problem. As long as they maintain good seperation they're able to move around in the lane (for instance when approaching corners, avoiding the wash from trucks etc) as they would when not in a group.

Even when riding line abreast (appropriate spacing etc) the motorcycle in front blocks the view up ahead so staggered is much better.

Doesn't matter what formation you use, it's a problem if there isn't enough space to move or see.

[DingoZ]

From a "Learner's" Point of view.

I have been on a few group rides now. One being almost 1000km's long. All of this ride was done in staggered formation. No problems. 2-4 secs seperation, more at some stages.

Another one just recently a tip was passed on. Maintain the seperation in staggered formation, and when cornering, move into single file (or ride your line) , then move back into staggered again on the exit of the corner.... If you have enough of a gap to the rider in front, this should not be a problem...

One thing I have noticed with all the rides so far, and with everyone that I have ridden with so far is that everyone gives everyone else plenty of room.

Grp riding is something which takes a while to get used to, and for it to be done properly I guess......... (but thats just from my point of view).....

:)

[mowgli]

Nicely put DingoZ.

I think some on here are missing the point of the 2 second rule. It's designed to provide enough space between you and the vehicle in front such that you can stop without hitting them when the first indication you have of them stopping is their brake lights. That's because in a car the driver's eyes are relatively low and it's often difficult to see what's happening directly in front of the car ahead - hence the need for 2 seconds.

On a bike if you're following directly behind another rider then I agree that you need 2 seconds. The rider ahead is obscuring your view. If on the other hand you are staggered then you can easily see whatever is in front of the rider one-up on you by looking diagonally across the lane. You will probably see hazards at the same time and begin braking together.

On a corner everyone falls into single file reducing the spacing to 1 second but now because of the bend in the road you can still see past the rider one-up.

The important point to note here is that this is group riding - not a fang in and amongst the cages. You're all going to the same place and (probably) travelling at a sensible speed for the conditions. As far as you're concerned the riders in front will behave predictably. Their speed and positioning will also signal hazards even before you've seen them yourself which is very useful.

Last thing I'll point out is that the further you are from another rider the harder it is to notice subtle changes in closure. Flying in formation glued to the other guy's wing is much easier than doing it at wider spacing. Simple reason is that you notice the changes earlier and therefore the control inputs remain small.

[NordieBoy]

Remember ladies and gents, that the 2 sec rule apply s to anything in your lane in front of you...so whether a bike is staggered and to the left of you in your lane you should be two secs from it... so even if he moves into your side of the lane he will still be 2 secs from you...simple eh?!.

+ 1

[NordieBoy]

On a corner everyone falls into single file reducing the spacing to 1 second but now because of the bend in the road you can still see past the rider one-up.

Nope.

Your reaction time is now halved.
Sure, you can see up ahead but you only have 1 sec to respond to anything the rider in front of you does.

[mowgli]

Nope.

Your reaction time is now halved.
Sure, you can see up ahead but you only have 1 sec to respond to anything the rider in front of you does.

No. My reaction time is the same. The space between me and the guy ahead has halved.

Since we're talking about an "organised" group ride there is no reason to expect the rider in front to do anything other than ride with the group. Group riding is not where a few bikers happen to clump together in traffic. In that case you've no idea what the other riders have in mind and I'd advocate the 2s rule all the way.

As an aside it's interesting to note that in the latest amendment to the rule they've written the minimum following distance into law rather than leave it to common sense. The minimum legal following distance for a vehicle travelling at 90kph is now 36m which equates to about one and a half seconds. Where in hell did they come up with that figure I wonder :oi-grr:

[Zapf]

staggered while on a stright road is fine. But on twisties and bends we tend to change back to single file. More room that way to avoide the potholes and what not on the road

[Nasty]

Since we're talking about an "organised" group ride there is no reason to expect the rider in front to do anything other than ride with the group. Group riding is not where a few bikers happen to clump together in traffic. In that case you've no idea what the other riders have in mind and I'd advocate the 2s rule all the way.

Its not the other riders in the group that you have to worry about .. its the other vehicles on the road ... there is every reason to expect the unexpected .. and that is what you should do not matter who you are riding with.

[Skunk]

Last time I read the Law on this (some time ago) you were not allowed more than four bikes in a group and must be staggered (one second behind the diagonal/two seconds behind the one directly in front).

I've done many group rides in staggered formation (mostly six or seven bikes) and never had an issue. As long as everyone does the right thing everything would be fine with either formation.

But single file is a lot of road covered in bikes. A sure way to get split up and riders trying to catch up. That's when you have problems...

[RT527]

Nicely put DingoZ.



On a bike if you're following directly behind another rider then I agree that you need 2 seconds. The rider ahead is obscuring your view. If on the other hand you are staggered then you can easily see whatever is in front of the rider one-up on you by looking diagonally across the lane. You will probably see hazards at the same time and begin braking together.



.

Not quite correct your missing the point that the other person , the one thats staggered may not be able to maintain his lane within his lane.....so if he is only 1 sec in front and to the side and moves right, into you're zone , and hard on the brakes you are not going to be able to react...also if you are the one following and you hit him ....you will be charged.

Thing is no one rides along looking where someone else is going, and you shouldn't be either!.
So common sense says give every one in you're Lane , being from the shoulder to the centre line 2 secs.

[KoroJ]

Group riding is all about common sense.

I find with riders I know and am comfortable with, the gap may close a bit and as for staggered or not, it usually comes down to the type of ride, nature of the road and speed.

Most rides tend to stagger at slower speeds and on straighter roads but spread and fall into single file on narrow or 'interesting roads as riders fall into their own pace.

I might ask here, "When has any Welly rider gone over the Rimutakas in a staggered formation"? (and that goes for your favourite road wherever you come from)

[mowgli]

Not quite correct your missing the point that the other person , the one thats staggered may not be able to maintain his lane within his lane.....so if he is only 1 sec in front and to the side and moves right, into you're zone , and hard on the brakes you are not going to be able to react...also if you are the one following and you hit him ....you will be charged.

Thing is no one rides along looking where someone else is going, and you shouldn't be either!.
So common sense says give every one in you're Lane , being from the shoulder to the centre line 2 secs.

I can see your reasoning but think you are missing my point. Regardless of how close the rider in front is you should be scanning for hazards out to 10-12s into the distance. In single file your view of the road ahead, and therefore your notice of impending hazards, is obscured by the rider ahead. When staggered your view is less obscured.

Remember the guy in front is travelling the same way and at the same speed as you are. He's not going to throw out the picks without good reason. When staggered there's every chance that you will have observed the same hazard and be equally quick out with the stoppers. In single file your first indication of the hazard might be the brake lights of the guy in front and that case even 2s might not quite be enough!

In essence I think we agree on this: Position yourself such that you have the best chance of a) observing hazards and b) avoiding the vehicle in front. Following someone you don't know or your average adolescent in their suped up jappa you might do well to hang back 2s or more. Following a mate you might be comfortable a little closer.

[vagrant]

In essence I think we agree on this: Position yourself such that you have the best chance of a) observing hazards and b) avoiding the vehicle in front. Following someone you don't know or your average adolescent in their suped up jappa you might do well to hang back 2s or more. Following a mate you might be comfortable a little closer.

Thats it in a nutshell.

[RT527]

Thats it in a nutshell.

Yup fully agree with ya there, and I do get your point mowgli

[Big Dave]

I usually stagger out of the bedroom.

[warewolf]

I usually stagger out of the bedroom....at the crack of noon :Pokey: and hopefully not with all your 'riding' buddies...

[RT527]

...at the crack of noon :Pokey: and hopefully not with all your 'riding' buddies...

Who`s Noon.....????

[Swoop]

Who`s Noon.....????
Dawn's brother.

[warewolf]

If you are riding in a group situation then you are not "playing", you are riding. You do still have your buffer zone, because there is a normal gap to the rider in front, and there are is no traffic alongside. If you do need to make a deviation because of an obstruction or similar, then you can, safely and quickly, and still return to your own part of the lane as soon as possible.OK bad choice of words on my part, by 'playing' I was using the vernacular (as do most rider trainers) to mean 'adjust your road position to suit the conditions', mea culpa. I don't have a full buffer zone because you are telling me I can only use half of the lane?! I regularly use all of my lane to pick the best line (not just around corners) and avoid 'hazards'. There is no way that I'm going to restrict myself to half a lane when I ride.

[Blue Velvet]

I thought one of the main reasons for riding in staggered formation is to make it more obvious to cage drivers that there's more than one bike... If you're riding single file they may not see the bike behind etc.

That's not to say they'll act any differently. But it's easier for them to tell.

$0.02

[warewolf]

Staggered formation as a reason to avoid hitting the bike in front is a moot point.

The whole point of the 2 second rule is to enable you to avoid hitting the vehicle in front. This is not a bike-specific rule, it is a general rule for all traffic. By definition, if you have the 2 second buffer, you don't need to be staggered.

Yes, visibility past the bike in front can be improved by not being directly in line, ditto being the target of thrown debris, but you've only got to move 30cm either side and at your discretion to achieve these goals. This is not staggered formation. That decision is the same one you make all the time while riding... where is the best position for me to be?

[warewolf]

I thought one of the main reasons for riding in staggered formation is to make it more obvious to cage drivers that there's more than one bike... If you're riding single file they may not see the bike behind etc.That's probably self-defeating. From a distance the pairs of head or tail lights will look like a car.

Besides, if there is an oncoming car, all riders should be moving to the left wheel track to maximise their safety buffer... again, this results in no staggered formation. I find it amusing and sad that when I move from a more dangerous position to a safer position, the rider behind will often expose themselves to unnecessary danger by moving closer to the hazard I've just moved away from! All because they are more fixated on riding in 'staggered formation' than they are about really thinking about what they are doing and their own safety.

[Blue Velvet]

From a distance the pairs of head or tail lights will look like a car.

Still better than looking like one motorcycle IMHO.


I find it amusing and sad that when I move from a more dangerous position to a safer position, the rider behind will often expose themselves to unnecessary danger by moving closer to the hazard I've just moved away from! All because they are more fixated on riding in 'staggered formation' than they are about really thinking about what they are doing and their own safety.

Well obviously the road situation changes and you adapt. Those that do it badly end up custard.

[NC]

There is only one time when I have had a problem riding in staggard formation.
I was riding along with an ex (I was on the left of the lane and he was on the right) We were going about 65 in a 50 and he spots a cop up ahead and slams on his brakes and swerves to the left right into my path. Hardly evasive action.:argue:

Other than that.

I think it's a great way to ride.
Obviously when coming up to corners that you need to adjust your position on the road of course your going to end up behind each other in a straight line, but if you're on to it enough you should be giving the rider in front of you enough room in case the need to make some sort of evasive action.

[Fatjim]

This thread needs an age limit of around 40. This is a discussion for old farts only.


Since I'm in that age bracket I'll add my 2 sense worth.

When riding staggered I always keep in the mirrors of the rider in front of me.

Also, when going round corners in a staggered formation, each rider should not have to take the same line, if you do, then abandon the staggered formation and move the "tits out" formation.

[Her_C4]

Group riding is all about common sense.

I find with riders I know and am comfortable with, the gap may close a bit and as for staggered or not, it usually comes down to the type of ride, nature of the road and speed.

Most rides tend to stagger at slower speeds and on straighter roads but spread and fall into single file on narrow or 'interesting roads as riders fall into their own pace.

I might ask here, "When has any Welly rider gone over the Rimutakas in a staggered formation"? (and that goes for your favourite road wherever you come from)

I ride in a staggered formation with the group(s) that I tend to ride with. 2 second rule applies to all vehicles in your lane (ie if I am riding towards the centre line, I am 2 seconds or more behind the bike on my left and 4 seconds (or more) behind the bike taking a similar line ahead of me). Always ride your own ride and your own corners.

AND I have nearly always ridden with said group(s) over the Rimutaka hill in in formation but then I guess I am old so and I don't ride a jappa so probably my opinion is worth only $0.01 cent). Oh who cares - you can have it for free.... :pinch: :bleh:


This thread needs an age limit of around 40. This is a discussion for old farts only.


Since I'm in that age bracket I'll add my 2 sense worth.

When riding staggered I always keep in the mirrors of the rider in front of me.

Also, when going round corners in a staggered formation, each rider should not have to take the same line, if you do, then abandon the staggered formation and move the "tits out" formation.

Jeesh - see above comments re age. I gave the 'old fart' perspective then.

I am not sure what exactly the 'tits out' formation is Jim? I have been known on really hot days to often undo the zipper on my leather jacket - does that count??

[Wannabiker]

Re:the appearance of 1 or 2 headlights approaching. There was an old teaching many years ago (1986ish) with the defensive driving course that used the headlight appearance of oncoming cars to estimate safe passing distances at night. If the car was far enough away, the headlights would appear to be almost together, and appear as one. As the oncoming car got closer, the headlight beams would be distinguishable as 2 seperate beams, then the oncoming car would be too close to attempt a passing manouver....Now, take motorcycles approaching in evening or low light situations. Having beams close together will give oncoming cage the appearance that motorbikes are further away than they actually are. I would suggest that 1 bike in each wheel track is best, to give the appearance of a normal width vehicle, and make it aesier for the cages to comprehend.

And the 2 or 4 second gap is luxury...I have a background in NZ representative cycling...there the gaps ae 2 cm, front and side...sometimes elbows touching.....and sometimes at similar speed to a motorbike....and wearing lycra underwear and a polystyrene helmet!!

[NordieBoy]

..there the gaps ae 2 cm, front and side...sometimes elbows touching.....and sometimes at similar speed to a motorbike....and wearing lycra underwear and a polystyrene helmet!!

And no-one crashes or gets headbutted at all :D

[MSTRS]

I thought one of the main reasons for riding in staggered formation is to make it more obvious to cage drivers that there's more than one bike... If you're riding single file they may not see the bike behind etc.


Valid point. And if you are in a group of two, I suggest that the lead bike sits in the right wheel track, following bike in the left...because for a following cager both bikes are obvious. From the cage driver's perspective, if the bikes are the other way round, the lead bike may be obscured by the follower. If the cager overtakes, there shouldn't be any surprises insofaras he may push in because he thinks there is a space there.

[RatBags]

staggered while on a stright road is fine. But on twisties and bends we tend to change back to single file. More room that way to avoide the potholes and what not on the road

Always travel staggered, never, never ride directly behind another scooter, 1 he will most likely not see you in his mirrors, or if he swings his head round will more than likely miss seeing you as no ones neck can do 180 turn, by being staggered the scoot in front can see you, also if he has to brake hard you are less likely to rear end him. on corners always give the guy in front room to take his own line without worry of you getting along side him or on his inside as it will seriously effect his line on the corner

[NordieBoy]

Good thing most of us don't ride scooters then.

[RatBags]

Good thing most of us don't ride scooters then.

Ah yes you lot don't call your Motorcycles Scoots or Scooters, Sorry maybe I should have Harley Davidson or Triumph America:Punk::sunny:

[bikemike]

warewolf I find it amusing and sad that when I move from a more dangerous position to a safer position, the rider behind will often expose themselves to unnecessary danger by moving closer to the hazard I've just moved away from! All because they are more fixated on riding in 'staggered formation' than they are about really thinking about what they are doing and their own safety.

I was gobsmacked when I first experienced this in club riding. Most of my riding had been solo, or in two's and threes. I'd never experienced anyone doing that behind me on a bike, it would never happen among strangers.

A note on the changing lanes or lines

grub Regarding the left hand wheel track, I often use it quite deliberately. Coming up to an intersection with cars waiting or approaching from the left, I move left so I'm not masked or hidden by the car in front of me. I also flick my light onto full beam (if it's not there already)

(and then move away again..) This is critical stuff, and if you can't move like this then you have to slow down more on the approach. I would add that the same applies when going though on a multi-lane where you are on the lane next to the rightmost or filter lane and there is traffic waiting to turn right, possibly in both directions. Here, move to the left to put yourself in view of possibly obscured right-turning vehicles looking at perhaps an empty lane 1 (and 2) which means it looks good to go to them. It gives me the willies watching a bike go on an unmodulated speed and course through in the rightmost lane past traffic waiting to turn both ways....
Also, the act of moving across the line of sight from the perspective of the oncoming vehicles that can already sight you will actually make you more visible. There's been comments already about the difficulty of assessing distance, especially with lights. At each moment the scene is assessed, your position will appear to have changed more than a vehicle maintaining a steady course, and that will typically be simply assessed as more speed. In my experience, the chances of registering on the other drivers' radar at all, or becoming a perceived hazard, go up greatly by using this lateral movement.

My view? Single file and staggered, but never in formation.

[swbarnett]

which equates to about one and a half seconds. Where in hell did they come up with that figure I wonder :oi-grr:
Probably double the average human reaction time of 0.75 seconds.

[swbarnett]

Not quite correct your missing the point that the other person , the one thats staggered may not be able to maintain his lane within his lane.....
I'm not convinced you're wrong on this point but is this not like saying that the car in the lane beside you may not be able to stay in their lane?

[rocketman1]

I think it a compromise, I understand where Werewolf is coming from, and it makes sense if all bikes are close ie less than 2 seconds apart, as you cannot get in another bikes way when cornering, basic bike rule#1

It makes sense when travelling fast that you are seconds plus behind when travelling in groups and also stay staggered, why, because from my own experience.... we had the sun behind us, my mate in front braked hard, the sun was so bright on his reflecting taillight I did not know he had braked, if it wasnt for the fact, I was staggered, It may have been hard to have swerved to miss him.
Full concentration when close, when tired, open up the gap and allow more room for errors

[Subike]

all I can comment is, from riding staggered formation in the 80's with as many a 90 bikes!
With a road captain setting the pace, sergents taking care of the center, and Tail end charlies at the end,
I can remember moving large , controlled numbers of riders in staggered formation without problems from Invercargill to the Cape and everywhere inbetween! Minimum fuss, max distance covered, Know your place!
The biggest problem I see is that you fuckers dont like having somebody in the front leading telling you what speed to STAY AT!!!
There an is attitude that that is comming out in these posts, EGO!
To ride in a staggered formation, you need to enforce ALL members of the pack to ride the right way, enforce rules that EVERYBODY sticks with.
I hear that KB'ers have a bad rep for group rides, too many fall off!
only because your fuckin egos dont let somebody be in control!
New riders would be safe, if communication, respect, co-operation and awareness that group riding is a skill with rules.
Staggered formation is only the formation, its the agreement to stay where you are in the pack, dont overtake, stick to the max speed agreed upon.
Yes , cages, B trains, Tankers, Lights all break up a ride, but there is no need for those that get stuck behind these obsticles to Fang it to catch up!
You will catch up because the lead group it get stuck behind the same obsticle and be slowed down!
Sheesch!
Just as we have to learn skills to ride on the road safley, being aware of the dangers etc, the skills that allow a pack of 4 or 90 need to also be learnt.
4 riders will understand each other very easily, 40 need to set rules, 100 riders can be achieved with a minimum of fuss if communication is there.
We are lucky in that this age allows us the communication of cell phones, and or radios head sets.
Kiwi Bikers could become the safest riders on the road, the example for others to follow.
We are a group that ranges in age from 15 to 85! WHY THE FUCK CANT WE GET IT TOGEATHER !!!


This is my opinion and not a flame to any posts previously made

Enjoy your ride friends... safley!

[TimeOut]

all I can comment is, from riding staggered formation in the 80's with as many a 90 bikes!
With a road captain setting the pace, sergents taking care of the center, and Tail end charlies at the end,
I can remember moving large , controlled numbers of riders in staggered formation without problems from Invercargill to the Cape and everywhere inbetween! Minimum fuss, max distance covered, Know your place!
The biggest problem I see is that you fuckers dont like having somebody in the front leading telling you what speed to STAY AT!!!
There an is attitude that that is comming out in these posts, EGO!
To ride in a staggered formation, you need to enforce ALL members of the pack to ride the right way, enforce rules that EVERYBODY sticks with.
I hear that KB'ers have a bad rep for group rides, too many fall off!
only because your fuckin egos dont let somebody be in control!
New riders would be safe, if communication, respect, co-operation and awareness that group riding is a skill with rules.
Staggered formation is only the formation, its the agreement to stay where you are in the pack, dont overtake, stick to the max speed agreed upon.
Yes , cages, B trains, Tankers, Lights all break up a ride, but there is no need for those that get stuck behind these obsticles to Fang it to catch up!
You will catch up because the lead group it get stuck behind the same obsticle and be slowed down!
Sheesch!
Just as we have to learn skills to ride on the road safley, being aware of the dangers etc, the skills that allow a pack of 4 or 90 need to also be learnt.
4 riders will understand each other very easily, 40 need to set rules, 100 riders can be achieved with a minimum of fuss if communication is there.
We are lucky in that this age allows us the communication of cell phones, and or radios head sets.
Kiwi Bikers could become the safest riders on the road, the example for others to follow.
We are a group that ranges in age from 15 to 85! WHY THE FUCK CANT WE GET IT TOGEATHER !!!


This is my opinion and not a flame to any posts previously made

Enjoy your ride friends... safley!

Makes sense to me.

Ride safetly and live to ride another day.

[Chrislost]

The answer of course, is single file at 2 seconds, plus breaks in the group to allow following vehicles to pass. That way every rider is at the optimum position on the road without compromise. This has been the accepted group riding strategy since at least the early eighties, as taught by Stay Upright Motorcycle Techniques (http://www.stayupright.com.au/).

What say you?

if the following vehicles are passing the group your either riding too slowly or driving out west.

both of these are more damaging to your health then riding in staggered formation at the speed posted on a sign multiplied by two and plus ten.

eg the safe speed to travel around a blind 35km/h corner is 80...


:whocares:

if you are 2 seconds behind the person in the staggered position and 4 seconds behind the person directly infront of you why worry?

[NordieBoy]

Ahhh...

Enforce, pack, know your place, road captain, sergents...

We can think for ourselves thanks (Apart from the idiots of course).

[bikemike]

Some folks should maybe get the train.

[warewolf]

if the following vehicles are passing the group your either riding too slowly or driving out west.Who said anyone was passing? What I was suggesting was to leave room for passing... there is a legal limit to the number of vehicles travelling in convoy. For large trucks, it is one, IIRC.

[warewolf]

Enforce, pack, know your place, road captain, sergents...That's not a ride, it's a parade.

I only do parades for charity, certainly not when I'm out for a ride. And even then, I'll still think for myself, thankyouverymuch.

[EnzoYug]

Staggered formation increases the area of the road that a motorcyclist can see directly in front of them. Following distance is importance but has nothing on reaction time when it comes to crash avoidance.

Most of the guys/girls I've ridden with understand two things:
1- you should never be in another bikes manoeuvring envelope.
2- When approaching a corner the group "brakes" formation and takes the line appropriate.
Anyone who cant follow these unspoken rules doesn't ride with me, no matter the formation.

[James Deuce]

It's cool on a motorway or straight open highway.

Just not in the twisties.

Riding in a staggered formation shouldn't be an absolute though. If you're trapped by riders around you and have no space to move, then you're all riding far too close, which often happens with the staggered formation if people don't pay close attention to speed and following distance.

No riding tip or observation is a rule, there are always times when you need to do something out of the norm and thy brain should be flexible enough to cope if need be.

[Ixion]

all I can comment is, from riding staggered formation in the 80's with as many a 90 bikes!
With a road captain setting the pace, sergents taking care of the center, and Tail end charlies at the end,
I can remember moving large , controlled numbers of riders in staggered formation without problems from Invercargill to the Cape and everywhere inbetween! Minimum fuss, max distance covered, Know your place!
The biggest problem I see is that you fuckers dont like having somebody in the front leading telling you what speed to STAY AT!!!
There an is attitude that that is comming out in these posts, EGO!
To ride in a staggered formation, you need to enforce ALL members of the pack to ride the right way, enforce rules that EVERYBODY sticks with.
I hear that KB'ers have a bad rep for group rides, too many fall off!
only because your fuckin egos dont let somebody be in control!
..

Yep. Tight stagger, 50, 60 bikes in formation for miles on end at 60mph.

It's not hard. You have your place. Mark your wheelman (the guy in front of you and to the right or left) , you keep in formation with him. You don't overtake unless he does and he won't unless the whole group does, and it won't unless the ride captain decides to. All you do is make sure you keep your place realtive to him.

It's all about self control and discipline. And if you don't have it, the Sargeant at Arms will explain it to you. You don't want that, you REALLY don't want that.

[CookMySock]

But you are compromised because you now only have half a lane to play in[...]You must be able to maintain your bike in half a lane.. or less, or the rest of the group will be keeping a very wary eye on you. Practice doing this with tiny countersteer pushes.

This is also a good way to practice countersteering since you are doing it continuously instead of just in corners. Push to steer only. If you get a fright and want out, well you are in a straight line so its no biggy. It feels very wrong to begin with but then that godlike feeling starts to set in as you master it. Nice.

Thats what I'm trying at the moment anyway :innocent:

DB

[McJim]

Another point about staggered formation is from the point of view of a car waiting at an intersection who looks right - sees a bike, looks left, the way is clear, the bike passes his nose and he pulls out not realising Warewolf and his buddies were riding in single file to hide their numbers, takes out riders 2 and 3 coz the 2 seconds they left between them and the rider in front wasn't enough to stop in before hitting a completely stationary object.....

[scumdog]

I mostly ride staggered formation - 99% the same distance behind the bike on front that I would be if actually in line directly behind it.

Gives even more fresh air between me and the bike on front - and hitting fresh air hasn't done me much harm so far.

[FROSTY]

No rule should ever be an apsolute. I prefer the staggered formation for big group rides in the city

[Subike]

Another point about staggered formation is from the point of view of a car waiting at an intersection who looks right - sees a bike, looks left, the way is clear, the bike passes his nose and he pulls out not realising Warewolf and his buddies were riding in single file to hide their numbers, takes out riders 2 and 3 coz the 2 seconds they left between them and the rider in front wasn't enough to stop in before hitting a completely stationary object.....

A very good point
two headlights are easier to see than one

[GrayWolf]

May I add a small 'thought' here?
Fundamentaly, the way of driving or riding that is taught to young/new drivers/riders is a quite basic, easily 'processed' no brainer road position. EG: keep to the left of the lane. Which anyone who has read the English Police roadcraft manual (the system) or attended advanced riding courses, know is totaly wrong as far an visibility is concerned when approaching a left hand bend. However, would you want a new/inexperienced rider attempting to use the lane fully while still learning 'road skills' and now have to anticipate white line crossers as well?
I can see the 'merit' in both arguements visa vi distance and road position. I think if analysed, most riders would 'stagger' on the open road, but if driving to the 'system', will naturaly 'single file' through bends.

Just My two pennorth.
the Gray One

[jonbuoy]

Don't see a problem on a straight road, can't see how it would work in the corners - theres only one proper line through a left or right hander and you'll both be wanting it, so you'll be inline anyway. 2 seconds for "enthusiastic" riding is a bit close. my 10c.

[Subike]

staggered riding around corners is easy
If you are riding with in the leagl speed limit, the a large majority of the main roads have sweaping bends that heave recomended safe speeds of 65kph average.If you are staggered riding formation,from 65kph corners and up you should be able to maintain position in eithere in inner or outer track of the left lane, without compromising your position, the riders infront and inmediatly behinds position either.Coordernating and control.
As far as single lane ridding with 2 second spacing an the open road.
One word
CRAP
Dangerous, cant see anything infront of the rider in front of you,cant be on the watch for cages, again view blocked, cant work out passing distances, again clear view blocked.
Tried it today with 10 other rides
Not a comfortable way of pack riding
Thus CARP

[howdamnhard]

Agreed back off to 2 seconds on the twisties and use the staggered formation on straights.:niceone:


On straight sections of road it can be great... when it comes to a corner back off from the guy in front a bit and take YOUR OWN LINE through the corner, don't follow the guy in fronts line, or watch where he goes... ride your own bike.

[nick69]

The staggered formation of riding is still the best when riding on straight bits of road. As for a 2 second gap i would prefer i leave near on 4 seconds unless i am riding in tight formation for work purposes. When i come to a bend then i take my own line which is in conjunction with positioning myself so i can see round the bend better, positioning my bike near the centre line. This gives you a better view of whats ahead. All you have to do is go out and practice it until your comfortable.

[FJRider]

Riding in a group is a lot of fun, but does have its dangers. Riding single file or staggered does not reduce the risks involved. On a group ride, one of two people could be the cause of a prang.
YOU, because YOU were NOT watching the rider in front of YOU slowing, stopping or moving out of the line you EXPECTED him/her to take.
THE RIDER BEHIND, because he/she did NOT see YOU slowing, stopping or moving out of the line YOU were EXPECTED to take.
Either way, YOU are involved in a prang.
If you trust your OWN ability, AND the ability of the rider BEHIND, no problems (if BOTH have the necessary ability), IF YOU DONT, increase the gap. And increase your chances to live.
LIFE IS A LOTTERY, AND NOT A FAIR ONE. Motorcycling IS dangerous. We ALL know that (dont we???), Ride to SURVIVE. You're a long time dead.
And please dont take any body with you. CHOICES ON HOW YOU RIDE, COME WITH RESPONSIBILITYS (when it turns to shit).

[NordieBoy]

As far as single lane ridding with 2 second spacing an the open road.
One word
CRAP
Dangerous, cant see anything infront of the rider in front of you,cant be on the watch for cages, again view blocked, cant work out passing distances, again clear view blocked.
Tried it today with 10 other rides
Not a comfortable way of pack riding
Thus CARP

You must hate following cars then - "again view blocked, cant work out passing distances, again clear view blocked."

Sounds fishy to me.

[Subike]

You must hate following cars then - "again view blocked, cant work out passing distances, again clear view blocked."

Sounds fishy to me.

na just look over the tops of their fucking roofs, by standing on me pegs

[mowgli]

This is also a good way to practice countersteering since you are doing it continuously instead of just in corners. Push to steer only.

I'm confused. So how do you steer when not in corners? I use the bars. It may be subtle but I'm pretty sure it's still counter steering.

[Blue Velvet]

No rule should ever be an apsolute.

+1

The road is dynamic and you have to adapt. In some situations staggered formation suits. In others it doesn't.

I don't believe staggered formation is what the title of this thread suggests though, i.e. wrong.

$0.02

[BiK3RChiK]

I'm only a newbie, so I know diddly squat! But... I have ridden staggered (sort of) with my husband and when he is behind me in staggered formation with only 1 second between us, I tend to find it too close. I prefer him to be 2 seconds behind me even if he isn't in the same wheel track as me. From my point of view, it is less distracting and I feel more comfortable.

Just my 0.02

M

[Waxxa]

If you are on an organised bike run, like the upcoming Westpac Helicopter run, and travelling at slow speeds, Staggered formation is acceptable.

However, when riding in a group at speed, you really should be travelling in single file folks with the appropriate space in between riders.

This allows each individual rider their own 'piece' of road to manouvre around pot-holes, road-kill, set up for corners etc without encroaching on the other riders around you. Lets ride safe.

[headlesschicken]

staggered formation would have saved my [bikes] ass yesterday. Now i'm sans bike for a while:angry:

[CookMySock]

I'm confused. So how do you steer when not in corners? I use the bars. It may be subtle but I'm pretty sure it's still counter steering.I countersteer. Push right to go right etc.

DB

[Guided_monkey]

I prefer staggered as it ensures that you can see the rider behind.

How many bikes have mirrors where you can see someone directly inline behind???

[Skyryder]

I usually stagger out of the bedroom.

I've been known stagger in.

skyryder

[scumdog]

I've been known stagger in.

skyryder

I bet that impresses yer doris!!

[idb]

I've been known stagger in.

skyryder

Not dragged kicking and screaming then?

[VTRMAD]

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH STAGGERED BUT YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT IF YOU BEHIND THEN YOU ARE IN CHARGE OF MAKING SURE YOU KEEP OUT OF THE PERSON IN FRONTS WAY:2thumbsup

[scumdog]

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH STAGGERED BUT YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT IF YOU BEHIND THEN YOU ARE IN CHARGE OF MAKING SURE YOU KEEP OUT OF THE PERSON IN FRONTS WAY:2thumbsup

:shit::scratch::scratch::scratch::shutup:

[Finn]

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH STAGGERED BUT YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT IF YOU BEHIND THEN YOU ARE IN CHARGE OF MAKING SURE YOU KEEP OUT OF THE PERSON IN FRONTS WAY:2thumbsup

WHAT? .

[nodrog]

:shit::scratch::scratch::scratch::shutup:


WHAT? .

you know, just incase they are reversing!

[NighthawkNZ]

:shit::scratch::scratch::scratch::shutup:


WHAT? .

U-Turns... Stopping for no reason... U-Turns

[Finn]

U-Turns... Stopping for no reason... U-Turns

WHAT ?

[vifferman]

:shit::scratch::scratch::scratch::shutup:


WHAT? .


you know, just incase they are reversing!


U-Turns... Stopping for no reason... U-Turns


WHAT ?
Huh? :spudwhat:

[Swoop]

Stopping for no reason...

Better get Hitcher to explain that one (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=30683&highlight=Reversing+lights)...

[bomma]

read the first two pages, same message seemed to be tossed around with one intelligent and insightful remark....staggered formation is great for straight riding and riding on relatively friendly roads....if i was going from aucks to the tron with a few mates, id ride staggered formation and as long as there was nobody directly beside me, allowing me to move freely to the side for any reason, id be satisfied....if i was on the coro loop and some muppet told us to stay in staggered formation, id slap him/her and turn around before i get taken out by a fellow rider.....go the STAGGERED formation!!

[Biggles2000]

I don’t like staggered formation unless I have confidence in the riding skills and probably more importantly the patience and courtesy of the people riding around me. It does however look real smart when a big group of riders are riding in a parade or such like, probably the Hog in me coming out. I have seen a few close calls over the years, mostly performance bikes trying to pass and finding out there is very little space for them to pull back into with. Also riders who don’t understand that its OK to pass if a gap opens up by moving forward and backwards in the group but not to change their position on the road from the LHS to RHS.

[munterk6]

I ALWAYS ride staggered,
a) Dont want rocks hitting me (off the guy in front's rear wheel)
b) When the guy in front JAMS on his brakes when his radar detector goes off
I dont wanna run up his rear end!

anyway, being on a GSXR means ya dont have to follow anyone any more!!:done:

[Fudmucker]

:calm:
I believe wholeheartedly in the stagger - providing that the spacing between each rider irrespective of lane is at least 2 seconds. This gives 4+ seconds between riders in any half and gives you the whole lane to swerve left or right without braking to avoid a pothole, brick, etc in your path without endangering the safety zone of the person riding just where they should be - in full sight of your side mirror.

In March this year I did a 6700km road trip with four mates. We travelled in two pairs, staggered formation. During the whole ride as group leader, not once did I have to turn my head to find my wingman. I if I rode left half, he was 2-3 seconds behind on the right in the mirror. If I rode right, he was 2-3 seconds behind on my left. :2thumbsup

What a pleasure to know where the other guy is...and not have to start looking left and right and not looking where you are riding!
Riding single file conceals the rider behind you - riding staggered does not.
Our bike club has group riding rule number one:
"Do not ride into the bike in front of you!"
Rule number two:
"You are responsible for the rider behind you!"
It works...:whistle:

[dpex]

Why not just save yourself the agro and stay three seconds behind, in staggered? About the biggest threat here would be to the last rider who just happened to be staggered left in a slowish column and with some arsehole busting his hump to overtake in a car.

I have to admit, on those occasions when I have come up behind a slow group on SH (that one) from Helensville to Wellsford, while driving a car to my happy hunting grounds at Tauhoe, I have found it annoying that I can't get past.

I have much a same issue with peddle-bikers who seem to think they enjoy some form of charmed life because they're saving the planet by limiting their output of CO2. So they keep out in the middle of the road with their churning bums apparently making a statement about their right to exist despite the competition from the less concerned gene pool.