Liability at trackdays?

[cowboyz]

This is one of those questions that I hope will never need to be tested but wondering what the story is if one bike hits another at a trackday causing damage? If both are insured for trackday use then one would think the respective insurance companies would deal with it.
But what if an insured bike hits a non-insured bike? Would it be valid for the uninsured rider to claim on the insured riders insurance for the damage if the accident was caused by the insured rider (much like on the road) or is it bad luck?

[JimO]

its really hard to read that green .

[Kendog]

its really hard to read that green .

This is one of those questions that I hope will never need to be tested but wondering what the story is if one bike hits another at a trackday causing damage? If both are insured for trackday use then one would think the respective insurance companies would deal with it.
But what if an insured bike hits a non-insured bike? Would it be valid for the uninsured rider to claim on the insured riders insurance for the damage if the accident was caused by the insured rider (much like on the road) or is it bad luck?

[JimO]

thats better. what if the uninsured rider causes it the insured guys insurance co will be chasing him for the $$ as well as having to fix his own ride

[jrandom]

Personally, I think that insurance on the racetrack is just dumb, and there isn't any sensible way of assigning reliable blame for crashes involving more than one bike.

I would imagine that the insurance companies would just sort out their client and ignore any other affected parties.

[MVnut]

The track is the track, everyone sorts their own:doh:

[Mort]

As I understand it, everyone is liable for their own bike ONLY regardless of circumstance - this is not the road.

[cowboyz]

what if in the slow group and the rules say no passing on the inside and a rider passes on the inside and loses it and takes out another bike. In the race and possibly fast groups the rules are a little unclear but in the slow group the rules are very clear.
Would be interesting to here from insurance brokers that wander the site or those in the know to see if it is possible to claim on someone at faults insurance. Its all well saying that you should be with an insurance company that covers trackdays but how fair is it that you have to pay up $1k excess for an accident that wasnt your fault?

Disclaimer: This has not happened to me or anyone I know. Just pure interest about what could possibly happen when on a trackday. Hope it never does.

[cowboyz]

And moreso. Would anyone consider asking someone who took you out to pay for your bike? Assuming that you are both on road bikes there for a non timed, fun ,trackday - not to race.

[bugjuice]

Personally, I think that insurance on the racetrack is just dumb, and there isn't any sensible way of assigning reliable blame for crashes involving more than one bike.
tis handy tho, if you have a low/high side, then you're still covered.
I personally think it's a good idea, since I'm fooked if my bike goes down at a track. But I love going, and I can't afford a second 'track bike'. If I stack it, then I know my ins will cover me, and give me something to get around on in the mean time, if I still can!
If I hit someone, then my ins covers me. If someone hits me, then their's/mine will cover me one way or another.. I'm still covered
wouldn't get ins if they didn't offer the track cover

[cowboyz]

so are you saying you would expect someone elses insurance to pay for your bike if they hit you and you not pay your excess?

Still unclear on it.

[bugjuice]

if someone hit you, then you have to follow whatever the ins tells you to do.
Personally I don't know, cos I haven't read all the T&C's of mine, and no one *touches his wood* hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm has hit me yet

but I think you have to pay your excess even if you get hit, then they refund it to you later on once the claim has been completed by the other party/ins etc

[McJim]

I thought it was simply a case of if someone else takes you out on the track you get to kick his head in? Michael Schumacher doesn't come on KB trackdays yet does he? :rofl:

[MVnut]

And moreso. Would anyone consider asking someone who took you out to pay for your bike? Assuming that you are both on road bikes there for a non timed, fun ,trackday - not to race.

Absolutely not

[MVnut]

so are you saying you would expect someone elses insurance to pay for your bike if they hit you and you not pay your excess?

Still unclear on it.

What part of 'NO' don't you understand ?????

[cowboyz]

seems the 'issue' is not clear even to those who are insured for trackdays.

In my opinion, if someone hit me on a trackday in the fast or race group then I would be in a 'oh fuck it' mood and accept that shit happens at those speeds. If someone hit me in the med or slow group I would be livid and expect them to pay for my bike.
Unreasonable? It would seem you would think so.

[bugjuice]

I just want to put; 200+
in the box where they ask 'what speed were you doing at the time?'

[McJim]

I just want to put; 200+
in the box where they ask 'what speed were you doing at the time?'

I donwanna bin at 200+ kph........:dodge:

[MVnut]

seems the 'issue' is not clear even to those who are insured for trackdays.

In my opinion, if someone hit me on a trackday in the fast or race group then I would be in a 'oh fuck it' mood and accept that shit happens at those speeds. If someone hit me in the med or slow group I would be livid and expect them to pay for my bike.
Unreasonable? It would seem you would think so.

Yes, it's unreasonable to ask,.........or expect. It's a racetrack ffs

[cowboyz]

no. its a trackday. a trackday where ROAD bikes are invited to ride safely around a track. In some cases with tuition. I am not talking about race days or racebikes.

ok.just be facetious, What about if you are at the waiarapa sprints (for instance - no dig at the guys who run it) which is held on the road and you bin. You expect the insurance to pay out cause you are on the road?

[homer]

its all very simple

if you agree that on the public road that all vehicles are to be insured at least to a third party insurance

then on the trac it would be the same wouldnt it

if its there fault they pay
if its yours you pay

or just go with if you crash you claim on yours
after all would you at least have insurance ,even if just for your bike

[rwh]

As I understand it, if I take part in a track day I'd generally have to sign a waiver stating that I won't try and claim off anyone else, and I'd assume every other participant had signed the same waiver.

2 scenarios worry me slightly:

1: Someone slips through the cracks and doesn't sign a waiver, and I accidentally take them out. Are they likely to be able to come after me? Can I then go after the organiser for failing to get the waiver? Or does my waiver prevent that too?

2: Someone has signed the waiver, and has insurance, and I accidentally take them out. Can the insurance co, after paying out their client, then come after me (since the insurance co didn't sign the waiver)?

Richard

[Sully60]

Do you ever read the indemnity forms you sign when you pay your money and enter??

Most have a clause the pretty much states the organisers and any other participants cannot be held liable.

[MVnut]

I'm not talking about having your own insurance pay out, if you can get that great. I'm saying it is 100% unreasonable to expect another rider to pay for your repairs on a racetrack. The ONLY reason you could is if someone purposely crashed you, but I doubt that will ever happen (hope not anyway) For the purpose of this discussion, a 'closed road' is a track.

[cowboyz]

As I understand it, if I take part in a track day I'd generally have to sign a waiver stating that I won't try and claim off anyone else, and I'd assume every other participant had signed the same waiver.

2 scenarios worry me slightly:

1: Someone slips through the cracks and doesn't sign a waiver, and I accidentally take them out. Are they likely to be able to come after me? Can I then go after the organiser for failing to get the waiver? Or does my waiver prevent that too?

2: Someone has signed the waiver, and has insurance, and I accidentally take them out. Can the insurance co, after paying out their client, then come after me (since the insurance co didn't sign the waiver)?

Richard


Do you ever read the indemnity forms you sign when you pay your money and enter??

Most have a clause the pretty much states the organisers and any other participants cannot be held liable.

Well that settles that then. And yes, I must get around to reading one of those forms you sign at sign up. - Oh yeah, give me shit, like I bet everyone reads them......
Honestly, I have never read one. Just assumed it was standard stuff about the TDO. I guess that has saved me going off on someone if the worst does happen.

[Mort]

The purpose of track insurance (as I understand it - and I have never bothered with it myself) is to insure the riders bike ONLY... After that it's every one for themselves with no liability either way.

[quackquack]

It would be interesting to read one of the disclaimers because if you do sign away your right to claim of other people thats cool but if not because of the lack of Road Rules how would you deem someone at fault.

[kiwifruit]

Do you ever read the indemnity forms you sign when you pay your money and enter??

Most have a clause the pretty much states the organisers and any other participants cannot be held liable.

Correct .

[HenryDorsetCase]

given that you are stood in the queue for a good half hour before sign in, how could anyone NOT have read the form?

[cowboyz]

Well for 2 reasons really.

1. I cant read.

2. I am far too busy talking to other people distracting them from reading the diclaimer as well.

Surely I am not the only person who has never read one. I admit that I probably should have read one by now but I never get around to it.

[White trash]

I has an interesting one at a recent KiwiTrackday at Puke.

Approaching the right hander over the hill myself and a black Suzuki wearing a number 2 plate gained on a group of three fairly quick road bikes. As we crested the hill I went to round all three of them up in one move on the outside. Unfortunately the chap on the black R1 had a moment or for whatever reason stood his machine up momentarily, causing me to either hit him or also stand the bike up. Obviously I chose the latter, putting me on the grass at close to 200 and ending in a quite spectacular get off in the worst turn in New Zealand racing. Had it been a fellow racer however, I probably would have held my line and allowed the bikes to "kiss" in the hope he had his shit together and maybe both stayed up.

Do I hold the R1 rider accountable? He obviously caused the accident and mant people had to rebuild a wrecked bike the following day.

Of course I don't. Poor bugger doesn't need the stress of thinking he caused something that I probably could have done all by myself the next turn anyway. Dunno if he even knows there was an incident.

It's also nice to be able to say you were in front of Stroud for three laps untill ya crashed too :D

[ArcherWC]

I donwanna bin at 200+ kph........:dodge:



hahahahahahaha you do 200 hahahahahahaha

[cowboyz]

i understand where you are coming from but quite frankly we are no where near the same league. If trackdays are going to be promoted (at least the slower 2 groups) as a fun day to circulate the track and officals enforcing rules about how to ride then it really becomes a road ride on the track - not a bad thing for the likes of people like me. On the other hand it would make sense (to only me it would seem) that if someone makes a mistake in the slower (read cruiser, just experience the track, not the racing) then they should be paying for that mistake.

As it stands, apparently, I have been signing a waiver saying that if someone else fucks up and takes me out then it is my problem to deal with my bike. If them the rules then them the rules, I am not going to bitch about it - just wanted to understand it.

[MadDuck]

As it stands, apparently, I have been signing a waiver saying that if someone else fucks up and takes me out then it is my problem to deal with my bike.

In a nut shell I think you have it. Proving that someone else made an error on a track would be an intersting proposition anyways. I mean to say as novice riders on a track...whose line is right or wrong?

Consider the huge variety of bike types and speeds out there all taking different lines etc. The indemnity forms are all pretty standard and are not kept secret. Maybe take the time to read them so you know exactly where you stand perhaps?

[roogazza]

so are you saying you would expect someone elses insurance to pay for your bike if they hit you and you not pay your excess?

Still unclear on it.

I wouldn't ! Trackdays are trackdays. If people are worried about that shit stay at home ! G.

[cowboyz]

way to quote something from 100 years ago. It is 2008 now. try to keep up with the evolving thread.