CE/soft vs Hard Armour

[Usarka]

Looking for some new kit and see most of the jackets around have the softer "CE Armour", the exception seems to be the high end racing suits which have hard stuff.

The soft stuff feels a bit wussy - is softer better or worser for mainly street use? Is it a comfort only thing or is it better/worse for impact protection? Should I rip out the soft stuff and jam in some hard? If so who does aftermarket armour?

aaarrrghhhh. i can't even decide what to have for dinner, let alone what tyres and gear to buy :pinch:

[vifferman]

Presumably, since both types are "CE approved", they both offer sufficient protection.
But I know what you mean, the dilemma you're facing, etc etc. blah blah.
My new jacket has soft armour that feels very insubstantial compared to my "old" armour, which is of the 'hard(ish) plastic cup with softer foamy stuff inside' variety. I'm tempted to swap them over, but not sure whether that would be a backwards step or not.

Sorry I didn't answer your questions. :o

I don't think you can assume that the soft stuff has less impact protection just because it feels insubstantial. Some of the very latest stuff is a gel that is very effective at absorbing impact, whereas the older stuff relied on being able to withstand the impact.

[FFS]

Have you considered Draggin Jeans and then buy some additional armour that velcro's in?

[Usarka]

Have you considered Draggin Jeans and then buy some additional armour that velcro's in?

yes, no, and irrelevant. the same question applies. whats the better armour?

i'm specifically after some leathers and most seems to be softer armour apart from race suits which are hard.


I don't think you can assume that the soft stuff has less impact protection just because it feels insubstantial. Some of the very latest stuff is a gel that is very effective at absorbing impact, whereas the older stuff relied on being able to withstand the impact.
maybe like the old days when cars started to have crumple zones and everyone liked the old rigid steel holdens better.......?

[Quasievil]

Quasimoto has Both Hard and Soft and Composite armour systems.
From Knox to LEK ii as well as standard CE armour systems.

There are a couple of schools of thought
one is
hard armour may cause harder impact on the leather ie hard road hard armour and leather in the middle so leather gets worn away quicker in a crash. So maybe softer is better?
Or Hard armour in theory offers greater impact resistance on impact zones elbows for example and should be preferred.
For us we offer both options, on the race suits it is all hard, but soon we will have Knox armour systems in all our gear, it is without a doubt the best option we can have in our brand, but we review constantly.

lastly a few traders in this country say its CE and its not
it costs about $5,000 USD for this and i know for a fact many factories get fake copies (ive been there and know this factually)

so be careful and only buy from reputable brands

[Grub]

lastly a few traders in this country say its CE and its not. It costs about $5,000 USD for this and i know for a fact many factories get fake copies (ive been there and know this factually) so be careful and only buy from reputable brands

So how are us mere mortals to know what is a "reputable brand"? I don't even know what CE means.

[90s]

Not helping this ... but when I researched back protectors I found out that there are different CE levels to confuse things (EN1621-1 & EN1621-2). This review is excellent on the standards that govern armour and what the ratings signify:
http://www.600rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=440
It has to do with the impact absorbsion, and does not probably relate whether things are hard or soft, but on their mechanical function.

In a related way there is a huge debate over (search through KB and find loads) whether SNELL is a backwards step from DOT for helmets - as the standards are moving in different directions.
Basically SNELL lewads to harder helmets as it needs to withstand one huge impact from a concentrated force. DOT looks more at the absobtion of general force rather than focused large impact - as I recall. Which is better?

Personally I would make sure anything I bought met standards and then review on a product by product basis.

[90s]

... but having given a sensible answer, it does feel a little good to be wearing hard armour like some hard-ass medieval road-knight ... right up until I arrive at the desk for the day and realise that any cool I have is purely delusional.

[twotyred]

aaarrrghhhh. i can't even decide what to have for dinner, let alone what tyres and gear to buy :pinch:

I feel your pain...:crazy:

[90s]

I feel your pain...:crazy:

I know exactly what bikes, gear, tyres etc I want ... I just lack the money!
Do you feel my pain too?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Quasimoto has Both Hard and Soft and Composite armour systems.
From Knox to LEK ii as well as standard CE armour systems.

There are a couple of schools of thought
one is
hard armour may cause harder impact on the leather ie hard road hard armour and leather in the middle so leather gets worn away quicker in a crash. So maybe softer is better?
Or Hard armour in theory offers greater impact resistance on impact zones elbows for example and should be preferred.
For us we offer both options, on the race suits it is all hard, but soon we will have Knox armour systems in all our gear, it is without a doubt the best option we can have in our brand, but we review constantly.

lastly a few traders in this country say its CE and its not
it costs about $5,000 USD for this and i know for a fact many factories get fake copies (ive been there and know this factually)

so be careful and only buy from reputable brands

this is good advice. I had a really interesting talk with Kerrie at MSW about this stuff when getting my stuff made.

My track leathers have huge sewn in plastic armour bits, and behind that, in pockets was a sectional sort of stuff with "CE" stamped on it... kind of a hardish shell with foam behind maybe ~20mm thick. I have replaced all that stuff with Knox armour supplied by Kerrie.

The leathers that Kerrie made me (2 pc suit for road use) have Knox armour in the knee/shin, elbows and shoulders. It seems like good stuff, but havent tested it.

Kerrie said that she had seen some of the plastic cup/foam behind type stuff which had shattered the cup on impact, so it basically became a layer of foam with shards of sharp plastic hanging off it. Not so good. She rated the Knox armour, and the BMW stuff.

Of course its all useless if you dont wear it.... I test rode a bike today in my oldest leather jacket, draggin jeans and cowboy boots..... :blush:

[Quasievil]

So how are us mere mortals to know what is a "reputable brand"? I don't even know what CE means.

There is only ONE BWAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh

:dodge:

[vifferman]

Here's...... Johnny!

No. :confused:
That's not it.

Um... here's another point, that the post about Kerrie at MSW reminded me of.
The single most important point about the armour is that it stays fixed over the part of the body it's supposed to protect.
So, rather than worrying about type, first make sure that it does that. F'rinstance, a couple of years back, when looking at some replacement pants, I tried on some Spidi and some Macna pants. Technically, and stylistically, the Macna pants looked great. But the the armour in the knees was pretty woeful, in that it seemd free to wander around instead of staying put over the kneecap.
In contrast, the Spidi Gran Turismo pants I ended up buying have knee armour that practically locks onto my knees, AND there is an adjustable strap around under the knee to make sure the armour stays put.

Part of the "staying put" thing is the armour itself, and the rest is down to the cut of the garment (does it fit you well?) and the design (does it have provision for adjustment?) .

Once you've found CE-approved armour that has good shape and fit, if there's then a choice between styles/type you can decide from there.

Another consideration is comfort. Kerrie fitted some Knox armour to my leather pants, but it was tricky because there wasn't a lot of room for letting the seams out. Eventually, I had to stop wearing them, because although the armour was comfortable, after a while the additional pressure around the knee area cut off some circulation. After an hour it became unbearable. However, the protection was fantastic! I banged my left knee into a car while lane-splitting at about 40km/h, and barely felt it, and it saved my leg from serious damage when a car u-turned into my VFR750 and wrote it off. :niceone:

[Pwalo]

I'm with the Vifferman on this. It's how well the gear fits you, and the fact that it's got CE approved armour that's important.

[FROSTY]

The best stuff I encountered was Tpro --it weas a memory plastic -hard on the outside to soft inside

[vifferman]

I like the new "biomechanical" armour Spidi uses - it articulates nicely on the joints. Dunno if it's available separately though.:confused:

[Jimmy B]

, the Spidi Gran Turismo pants I ended up buying have knee armour that practically locks onto my knees, AND there is an adjustable strap around under the knee to make sure the armour stays put.



Smee too. Good pantses. Jacket has all sorts of figure enhancing adjustments as well. Seems water proof too...so far...and so it should be...

[vifferman]

Seems water proof too...so far...and so it should be...
Yes. Not a CheapThing at all, at all.
I was going to buy the GT jacket (to match my pants), but I thought the Macna had better accommodation for warm-weather riding.
I find the pants very hot - the vents seem to make very little difference, and the liner gets a bit sweaty.

[Jimmy B]

I find the pants very hot - the vents seem to make very little difference, and the liner gets a bit sweaty.

True that, the liner is very very very effective and they make a great winter suit. I got mine for commuting in the fantastic Auckland weather and touring, that's how I justified the upfront cost to Mrs JB.

I have however removed said liner and it makes a ton of difference, though you still could've fried an egg on my thighs in tairua on Saturday :eek: , sheesh that was hot, they're not too bad once underway. Still they are cooler than my leathers and I think the armour is better

[vifferman]

...they're not too bad once underway. Still they are cooler than my leathers and I think the armour is better
The only thing with the leathers is they aren't as sticky, and they actually keep some of the heat (like that radiating off my rear headers!) out.
But yes, that armour is excellent. It was the first thing I noticed the first time I wore the pants: the knee armour sort of attached itself limpet fashion to my knees. And apart from the heat thing (that you'd get with any pants apart from mesh or perforated leathers), they're very comfy. :yes:

[twotyred]

I know exactly what bikes, gear, tyres etc I want ... I just lack the money!
Do you feel my pain too?

fraid not :violin:

[NordieBoy]

In a related way there is a huge debate over (search through KB and find loads) whether SNELL is a backwards step from DOT for helmets - as the standards are moving in different directions.
Basically SNELL lewads to harder helmets as it needs to withstand one huge impact from a concentrated force. DOT looks more at the absobtion of general force rather than focused large impact - as I recall. Which is better?

Snell is the "2 hard ball impacts in the same spot" one.

I'd go with DOT myself for the lower g-forces on the initial impact.

[Zapf]

Kerrie said that she had seen some of the plastic cup/foam behind type stuff which had shattered the cup on impact, so it basically became a layer of foam with shards of sharp plastic hanging off it. Not so good. She rated the Knox armour, and the BMW stuff.

It all depends... for example. it would have taken a bit of force to shatter the cup in front of the foam, a good part of that force would have been the impact force. So from a point of view, it can be said that the cup reduced the impact force for shattering.

Soft armor is good if you are impacting a broad surface, but if you are impacting a smaller object then you want the hard armor to spread the force over a larger area.

What vifferman is also very correct. Doesn't matter what armor. If it doesn't fit then its useless. Also, when you do go for a slide. Your clothing / leather can and will rotate around your limbs, therefore moving the armor out of its optimum position. One of the solution is to wear leather and armor which is separated, so that while the leather rotates the armor underneath will stay put.


The best stuff I encountered was Tpro --it weas a memory plastic -hard on the outside to soft inside

Interesting stuff that TPro... I have a set myself. I just wished they have something hard integrated to give it some structural integrity. E.g stopping it from bending so easily.