Buggered handling (Pilot Road 2)

[RantyDave]

So, I just had some Pilot Road 2's fitted, replacing a getting knackered Pilot Power on the front and vastly knackered M3 on the rear. The bike's handling has gone entirely to shit.

Basically the front tyre feels like it wants to pull more into the corner once it's entered in - I find myself (slightly) fighting the tyres desire to countersteer more. On my previous tyres I'd taken a buttload of preload off - possibly effectively lowering the front - and this had helped turn in. I just went for a quick ride with a spanner and ended up putting almost all the preload back on. This helped quite a bit but now the suspension feels, well, like it's got loads of preload on. Kinda stiff, really.

I was wondering if anyone had felt this before and might have some pointers on what to do. I'm tempted to push the forks down the triple clamp by a couple of mill, then taking the preload off again. It might also pay to play around with tyre pressures, I guess. Any ideas?

Dave

[Hitcher]

10,000km of riding should sort it. Or a trip back to your friendly bike shop and swap the PR2s for something more agile and suiting the nature of your Triumph, before they get too worn.

[jrandom]

Odd. Throughout 1,000km or so on the road and a trackday at Taupo, I haven't noticed any desire to 'flop in' from Betty's Pilot Road 2s. They turn steadily and predictably, and are very happy to sit at speed at any lean angle you like.

Are you sure it's not just that your suspension was radically adjusted to compensate for shagged and, more importantly, mismatched tyres? I can't say I'd be keen on running a Pilot Power front and an M3 rear together.

Then again, I would expect excellent mileage from M3s on a Speed Four. Why didn't you just go for a set of those? Superior traction and feel to the PR2s by far, and much better suited to a light bike.

[jrandom]

muttermuttermutter

Up for a bike swap next time I'm in town?

Betty and her Michelins will melt your heart, I'm sure.

:sunny:

[MSTRS]

Haven't felt any of that which you describe, R-D. In fact, front is so smooth and predictably planted that I have been able to body steer on sweeping downhill corners (hands off the bars). Downhill in 6th, so road speed stays steady.
And no, I'm not promoting dangerous antics on the road, just interesting to observe the bike's ability to stay pointed and upright by weight control only

[Hitcher]

Up for a bike swap next time I'm in town?

Betty and her Michelins will melt your heart, I'm sure.

I'm definitely up for a swap! And I think you misunderstand me. I enjoyed my PR2s -- indeed I rate them almost as highly as I do the Storms, out of all of the sports touring tyres I have consumed in over 140,000km of large bike riding. If the front hadn't shat itself prior to the rear, I may still be running these.

But having ridden a Speed Triple fitted with PR2s, I believe that some bikes are not suited to certain types of tyres. Despite wear attributes, I suspect a Speed Triple and even a Speed Four, would perform eminently better on Pilot Sports, Avon Vipers, Pirelli Diablos or similar.

I even met a dude on Saturday who was running Conti RoadAttacks on his GSXR1000K5. Most strange. He said he wanted better wear.

[jrandom]

In fact, front is so smooth and predictably planted that I have been able to body steer on sweeping downhill corners (hands off the bars)

Hey, I've recently been inspired to start doing the same!

If there are pedestrians, cage traffic or following riders for an audence, it's particularly fun to use both hands in canoe-paddling motions.

:niceone:

[RantyDave]

10,000km of riding should sort it. Or a trip back to your friendly bike shop and swap the PR2s for something more agile and suiting the nature of your Triumph, before they get too worn.
My friendly bike shop suggested that I hover around while they swap the tyres over and do a WOF. Starting at 8am, because I have work. Two hours later I finally left. My nightmares now have two pieces of spray painted plastic and the words "bling it up" being used to sell a cruiser.

I doubt they'd exchange them, and there may not be enough years left in my life to go through the whole procedure again.

More seriously I *did* read the PR2/Avons thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=64682) and while opinions were evenly divided on which were the better tyre (with a thread on another forum suggesting the PR2's wore significantly more slowly) nobody mentioned an absence of nimbleness. It's not like the tyres came with a sticker saying "not nimble tyres, not at all, use only on goldwings" and, besides, a lack of nimbleness is not really my problem. Possibly quite the opposite.

Sigh. Richard was trying to foist some Conti's on me, but I'm not good with having things foisted. Particularly when I have to commute along the motorway now and tyre wear has become a big deal.

Dave

[jrandom]

Sigh. Richard was trying to foist some Conti's on me, but I'm not good with having things foisted. Particularly when I have to commute along the motorway now and tyre wear has become a big deal.

Well, the PR2s are fine tyres. You shouldn't really be having significant handling issues with them.

I would suggest a review of your bike's static sag and compression and rebound rate settings. Not that I'd really know, of course. But it does sound a bit a like suspension configuration thing, given that your tale of woe doesn't match the usual PR2 comments.

How do you have your rear shock set up?

Some googling reveals relevant comments (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303813):

"I really like the round profile of the Pilots as the turn in is a bit slower, but increadibly linear and super stable, which is more of an advantae on the stret than track I think." [sic]

I definitely second the general remarks about PR2s having stable and deliberate turning characteristics. I'd be hesitant to blame your tyres.

[RantyDave]

How do you have your rear shock set up?
Symmetrical, six clicks IIRC. Kinda stiff. The front is (was) much softer - four clicks. Perhaps I should set it back to the factory default and see how we go, but with Pilot Powers' the factory default was awful. Hmmmm.

Dave

[jrandom]

Symmetrical, six clicks IIRC. Kinda stiff. The front is (was) much softer - four clicks. Perhaps I should set it back to the factory default and see how we go, but with Pilot Powers' the factory default was awful. Hmmmm.

I assume you're talking about preload, there.

Does your suspension also offer adjustable damping, and if so, is it separately adjustable for compression and rebound?

I wouldn't have thought that you could muck up a bike's handling to the extent you describe with nothing but preload adjustment.

:confused:

Have you checked the tyre pressures since you had them fitted?

[jafar]

Would it be fair to suggest that the new tyres are working a bit too well ??
Reset the suspension to default & work it out from there.

I recently replaced a Pilot Road with a Pilot Road 2 on the front of my cb 1300 & experienced a similar effect to the one your talking about.

[jrandom]

Would it be fair to suggest that the new tyres are working a bit too well ??

Actually, that's a good point. Maybe RantyDave should pop by a bike shop and take a fully stock demo bike of some sort similar to his out for a spin, just to get himself a baseline for comparison.

[Grahameeboy]

Yeah my new front Power 2CT grips quicker into turn which at first felt odd like I had to counter steer more because I guess the rubber changes from a harder compound to a softer compound so maybe it grabs..........don't the 2's have the same....Dan can no doubt fill me in on whether that is correct.

[jafar]

Actually, that's a good point. Maybe RantyDave should pop by a bike shop and take a fully stock demo bike of some sort similar to his out for a spin, just to get himself a baseline for comparison.

That could be an expensive exercise, especially if he ends up buying the 'test bike' :devil2:

Going from a bike with shagged tyres to one with new tyres does make the bike handle differently. Often it is just a case of readjustment. A couple of hundred k's will normally sort it out.

[jrandom]

don't the 2's have the same....Dan can no doubt fill me in on whether that is correct.

Yup, the Pilot Road 2s are 2CT also, softer compounds on the sides.

They certainly grip well for a 'sport touring' tyre. I had nary a wiggle from the rear on the track on Saturday, even when applying a fair whack of throttle while cranked right over with pegs dragging.

:niceone:

[RantyDave]

I assume you're talking about preload, there.
No, sorry. The rear is six clicks compression and rebound, preload is allegedly fixed (the manual warns about the coming of the apocalypse if you mess with ti). Front is four clicks compression and rebound, and I took the preload from five rings down to one.

I think putting it at factory default and working outwards might be a good plan.

And, yes, it had struck me that what I might be experiencing is tyres that actually function correctly - and that I had adjusted both the suspension and my riding style to suit. Certainly once the tyres start wearing appreciably one needs to dangle off the side of the trumf a bit to get it to corner happily. Perhaps I've set things up to rely on the front a bit too much...

Dave

[phoenixgtr]

Hmmm...I love my PR2. I've had one on the rear (Pilot Sport on the front) for only a couple of weeks now but it's been a huge improvement. My confidence has shot up!! I used to have a Bridgestone Battlax BT 014 on the rear. It should have been a bloody good tyre but I hated it

[RantyDave]

Maybe RantyDave should pop by a bike shop and take a fully stock demo bike of some sort similar to his out for a spin
There was an R6 demonstrator calling me. It was quiet, but had a siren song all of it's own. It sang:

"Daaaaaaave,
Daaaaaaave,
Take me for a fang.
The Haywards are calling,
The Takas miss you dearly,
See how well I trail brake,
Daaaaaaave,
Daaaaaaave,
The mortgage doesn't matter,
Deal with retirement later,
The kids are too dumb for uni anyway,
She'll forgive you, it'll be fine,
Daaaaaave,
Daaaaaave"

And so on. Strangely all I got from an Aprilia RSV was a vaguely disdainful look.

Dave

[idb]

I've got Powers all 'round at the moment but my rear is shagged (ooerrr...!).
I was thinking of putting a Road 2 on next since I ride like a nana anyway and I'll hopefully get a few more ks.
I usually get 5k out of the rear...has anyone worn out a R2 yet under road conditions only, and how long did it take?

[Grub]

On my previous tyres I'd taken a buttload of preload off - possibly effectively lowering the front - and this had helped turn in. I just went for a quick ride with a spanner and ended up putting almost all the preload back on. This helped quite a bit but now the suspension feels, well, like it's got loads of preload on. Kinda stiff, really.

I was wondering if anyone had felt this before and might have some pointers on what to do. I'm tempted to push the forks down the triple clamp by a couple of mill, then taking the preload off again. It might also pay to play around with tyre pressures, I guess. Any ideas?

Dave

All this pissing about with preload and ride-height settings without really having a clue about the science behind it and the design settings for your bike with you on it, just sends shivers up my spine. It sounds like you now have good tyres and crap bike setup.

There's a designed amount of sag front & rear for that bike. Find out what it is, get a mate and measure it all up with you on it. Then don't touch it - it's the compression and rebound settings that you can fiddle with. (For my bike the required preload sag is 35mm front and rear, no argument, no options. )

[Subike]

Its been interesting reading all the threads on tyre wear, grip, roll, countersteer, and all those other things that tyres do.
Digressing a bit to cages.
In the past I fount that different tyres reacted differently on different weight cars ( bloody differences)
One manufactures tyre was great on one car but shit on another,
Example is the old Dunlop Aquajets, on a light to medium car they were crap, but on a medium to heavy car they were fantastic.
So I presume that the same theory applies to bike and tyres.
A lightweight 250 might be pertectly at home on a brand of tyres that totally feels crap on a tourer.
Yes the manufactures produce tyres with xyz specifications, claims of this that and a wow factor if you use them....
But really, does it come down to each bike being a differing weight. length and suspension set up?
A set of Avons may be perfect on a modern trumpy, but a suzie of the same size and gender may find them crap!
I think that it is good to seek out those who own and ride the equivalent of your personal ride and ask their experiance before embarking on a tyre brand change.
Fair to say there have been some major improvements in the tyre construction in recent years, but remember these improvements have been tested on NEW rides, not the 5 - 30 year old ride you are proud of tossing around the twisty bits, within the limits of course.
So seek the good advice from riders of your own bike model, not the guy who wants to part you with that $350 for the best tyre on the market...
The so called worst tyre on the market may just be the ""perfect"" tyre for your ride. then again Black Pete down the road with that Guzzie the same as you has found that such&such a tyre gives the best ride, miles away from where you thought the best performance tyre was.
Forget the tyres that the race guys use unless you are a race guy and race.
Different conditions on the highway, heaps different.
A Yamaha $#@%1000 that Rossi rides at 300KPH+ may perform well on Bridgestone xyz, but your road equivalent wont,
Just my thoughts ,
please pick holes in my theory, as I am keen for information on tyres to suit my own ride.
:beer:

[jrandom]

You know, I've never ridden on a Bridgestone I liked. Or a Dunlop, for that matter.

Strokes and folks, though. Some weirdos (cough, Enigma and ManDownUnder, cough) seem to love the things. Bridgestones, that is. Nobody in their right mind likes Dunlops.

;)

Also, I'm not a fan of Pilot Powers on sprotbikes when compared to Sportec M3s - I don't like the glassy lack of road feel. The PR2s, though, seem to feel just fine, which could have something to do with the fact that I'm on a big, heavy bike.

Race tyres of any brand are always awesome to ride on. Pity they only last for the equivalent of about one and a half rides around the block.

[Grub]

I think putting it at factory default and working outwards might be a good plan.

My Honda Service Agent got caught doing that to my bike. The 'book' says 5 rings for the front. It was just plain dangerous. What they hadn't taken into account was that the bike has done 45k's and the springs have gone soft (or someone's been dicking with them). We set them by measuring and the answer was 1 ring.

The Apocalypse is nigh

[RantyDave]

All this pissing about with preload and ride-height settings without really having a clue about the science behind it and the design settings for your bike with you on it, just sends shivers up my spine
Yeah, I know. The science behind the "remove preload" theory was that as the forks shorten, so the bike turns more. The "remove preload" practice was that it worked a treat - regardless of how I didn't really give a sh*t.

OK. I give up. I'll set it to factory and take it round the block. Give me ten...

Dave

[RantyDave]

I'll set it to factory and take it round the block.
Yeah, that's the biscuit. Rear stiffer than the front obviously encourages the front into corners. I get a tiny bit of it now, but the bike feels a lot happier. I also seemed to be, how do I say it, carrying a little more speed than usual.

My problem now is chicken strips :)

Dave

[RantyDave]

I'm not a fan of Pilot Powers on sprotbikes when compared to Sportec M3s - I don't like the glassy lack of road feel.
Yes! That was exactly it! I swapped a shagged rear PP for a mostly shagged rear M3 and I could feel individual stones in the tarmac travelling under my feet. Most surreal. Perhaps I should have just got M3's and be done with it but NOOOO I had to do "research" first.

Dave

[MSTRS]

Yeah, that's the biscuit. Rear stiffer than the front obviously encourages the front into corners. I get a tiny bit of it now, but the bike feels a lot happier. I also seemed to be, how do I say it, carrying a little more speed than usual.

My problem now is chicken strips :)

Dave

I dunno...thought that front and back need to work together? If one is 'stiffer' then you will tend to get a see-saw effect that upsets the overall stability.
With someone holding the bike up, press hard down on the rear of the tank (or near the centre of the bike)...both ends should dip and rise together.

[merv]

Mate you said right back at the beginning perhaps you need to do something with the tyre pressures. Well first question is what are they set at now? I'd always check that and play around with the pressures before changing the suspension at all.

You had fun with pressures when you got the bike remember and your bike has handled OK since then, so I'd say look there again.

[RantyDave]

Hey guys,

Just to close the thread, I've had the tyres for about a tankful now and they're heaps better. Wonderful, in fact.

Dave

[ElCoyote]

I think that sums it up fairly. Horses for courses.