Can anyone tell me why 250cc bikes have to be either old or gutless?

[little green FXR]

I've had a 250cc GSXR previously, and am now looking to buy another higher performance 250cc bike to keep with the licence rules, and finding it damn frustrating. It seems that the newest GSXR, CBR, and ZXR 250s on the market are 1995, and even getting that age is a stretch. I can understand that when you are on your learners or restricted licence it does make sense for the power of your bike to be restricted to the 250cc class, but why is it that there are no newer high performance bikes available? Does anyone know how something manufactured around 2000 is impossible to get (unless a 2-stroke is wanted?)
Can someone please give me the reason for this strange situation where the only bikes that can go fast in the 250cc class are at the age now where they have ancient technology, and old, old parts???????

[Grub]

Can someone please give me the reason for this strange situation where the only bikes that can go fast in the 250cc class are at the age now where they have ancient technology, and old, old parts???????

No ........

[R6_kid]

It is rumoured that around 1993 there was a horsepower restriction placed in Japan that limited 250cc bikes to either 35 or 40hp at the crank. The current production 250 sportsbikes (ZXR250,CBR250,FZR250 etc) were already over this and production was ceased.

Aprilia makes a new RS125 and it looks really damn sexy too, you'll just have to pay the price. It handles like the bees knees though!
http://www.thebikerzone.com/road_tests/images/aprilia280306_77819.jpg

It's still only 33bhp unrestricted, but i'd guess that is rwhp, and it's a bloody light little bike.

[MVnut]

It's just the rules, OK

[bugjuice]

old, no.. saw in the flesh today, the new kawa 250. Was actually impressed with it. I'm sure it's still pretty gutless tho, I think it's still a twin air-cooled 250. But still, tis a stuna

new grunty? nope.. old skool is your friend. Besides, the older a bike is, the more parts there are around for them.. All the good solid 250 sprotbikes of yesterdecade are still often found to be going strong. So most are pre-95. So what? You can still find a smart example of the CBRs and ZXRs, and look hard enough, and you get some RGVs and may be, just may be, the monster of a TZR too..

[little green FXR]

ok, I understand that it's the rules, but I'm hoping that people can give me more insight into how these rules came about than "it's just the rules".

[madandy]

Production costs also..?
It wouldn't cost much more to manufacture a 600cc sports bike with all the designs and features being essentially the same as the tiddlers and only the size of parts, and the engines being a little larger. Not many people would like to pay close to 600cc prices for a wee 250.
Just a guess...

[MVnut]

ok, I understand that it's the rules, but I'm hoping that people can give me more insight into how these rules came about than "it's just the rules".

My attempt at humour (sorry)

[disenfranchised]

I've seen things online about newer Hobda CBR250RR's.
Seems like they might have kept on making them, but don't seel them in every country.
If this page can be believed, new models can be got in Australia
http://www.ausbikeprices.com/Honda_CBR_250_RR.html

You've always got the Aprilia RS250, but that'll cost ya.

Main reason is probably market forces.
Not worth worrying about the NZ rules, cause we're not big enough, so Europe and the UK will be the target, and they have HP restrictions..hell over there you can get a low tuned 500 and still meet the provisional requirements.

[kiwifruit]

<img src="http://www.frankstonyamaha.com.au/WR250%5D.jpg"/>

[onearmedbandit]

+1 for everything imdying said in his post 1 above.

[R6_kid]

Nup, that's just how they're registering them over there. Very very very popular in Australia to put the latest paint jobs on them and flog them for big $$$$...

I dont know how many times this has been said throughout this forum...

the CBR/ZXR/FZR 250's were all last made in 1993.


Kiwifruit also makes a good point - a 250 motard would get a you a long way into a lot of fun & trouble, but at the same time like imdying said, those two stroke 250's are mental little buggers.

[jrandom]

What kiwifruit said.

Motard the motherfucker up and go hard!

Actually, didn't I originally make that suggestion a while back in a 'what's the coolest two fiddy' thread?

Plagiarist!

:pinch:

I was all about the YZ250, though, not the four-stroke 'F' model.

A brand new street-legal YZ250 smoker with road tyres and rims would kick serious arse.

[R6_kid]

I was all about the YZ250, though, not the four-stroke 'F' model.

A brand new street-legal YZ250 smoker with road tyres and rims would kick serious arse.

Good luck getting one road legal... however im sure you could get the YZ250 engine into the WR250F frame if you want, or at least the YZ250F engine anyway. But would cost a bit more than most n00bs could afford me thinks.

[Morcs]

Just get a 400.

250s are gay.

[Drew]

The motard suggestion is something I've never even thought about for beginners. Wonder how many bad habbits it would create if one wanted a road bike when they got a full licence.

[FilthyLuka]

Good luck getting one road legal... however im sure you could get the YZ250 engine into the WR250F frame if you want, or at least the YZ250F engine anyway. But would cost a bit more than most n00bs could afford me thinks.

if you buy the bike new from the dealer, throw some lights on, getting it road registered just costs $300 for the compliance, so i was told by the Manager of a VTNZ station. The biggest problem is getting the paper trail sorted. If you can get a trail back to the dealer, eg, your the second owner, you get a reciept and last owner proves they bought from dealer, not a problem.

Had a similar idea involving a suzuki RM250

[R6_kid]

Unfortunately if the vehicle was never intended for road use from the factory then it is enevitably expensive and generally a pain in the ass to get it road registered. Hence the reason you can't road regiser racing quads in NZ, the best you'll get is a 'farm vehicle'.

Getting a bike like a WR250 and putting a YZ250 engine in it aint hard, you're just placing the racing MX engine in the place of the enduro engine... it's not likely to show up as a problem come WOF time.

[FilthyLuka]

Unfortunately if the vehicle was never intended for road use from the factory then it is enevitably expensive and generally a pain in the ass to get it road registered. Hence the reason you can't road regiser racing quads in NZ, the best you'll get is a 'farm vehicle'.


quads and ATV's have different rules and regulations to motorcycles.

The expensive of registering a _new_ MX bike is the cost of wheels/tires, lights and compliance...

yeesh, i could see how that could tally up now...

[R6_kid]

quads and ATV's have different rules and regulations to motorcycles.

The expensive of registering a _new_ MX bike is the cost of wheels/tires, lights and compliance...

yeesh, i could see how that could tally up now...

and the fact that it was never destined for road use. Same reason you cannot register HRC CBR600RR's for the road.

[FilthyLuka]

and the fact that it was never destined for road use. Same reason you cannot register HRC CBR600RR's for the road.

Well, technically, if you bought one from a dealer, provided the bike is manufactured by honda for the unwashed masses and has documentation (crumple zone tests ect) that you would find on most vehicles (read, that are required for compliance), there is no reason you can put on some lights and register it :S Buggered if i know why you would want to

[disenfranchised]

Nup, that's just how they're registering them over there. Very very very popular in Australia to put the latest paint jobs on them and flog them for big $$$$... the Tyga bodywork is also very very popular for tarting them up to flog for more than they're worth.

I stand corrected....and man does that seem like a dodgy sales practice.
Good thing I don't live in Australia, I probably would have been sucked in ages ago.

OK, so my next suggestion (silly though it might be) is to get your hands on a KTM 250 FRR
http://www.ktm.com/Bike-Spec.6395.0.html
Not road legal...and probably hard to get hold of without a full race team to support ya....but 110HP...can't complain about that

[warewolf]

and the fact that it was never destined for road use.AFAIK that's not a barrier. As long as it meets the standards, it's possible. Lots of the larger kids trail bikes get road registered as adventure bikes for short-arses. Those bikes were never meant for road use, either. It's just problematic to fit up all the required parts, eg brake light switches to brake assemblies not designed for them.

[dickytoo]

old, no.. saw in the flesh today, the new kawa 250. Was actually impressed with it. I'm sure it's still pretty gutless tho, I think it's still a twin air-cooled 250. But still, tis a stuna



they went to water cooling awhile back...

[Paulus]

Good luck getting one road legal... however im sure you could get the YZ250 engine into the WR250F frame if you want, or at least the YZ250F engine anyway. But would cost a bit more than most n00bs could afford me thinks.


KTM250EXC and Gas-Gas EC250 are both 2 stroke enduro bikes that are road legal (if they come with the correct kit) and relatively common here in NZ. They'd be an absolute blast!

[Ixion]

Did anyone ever wonder *why* learners are limited to 250cc ?

[disenfranchised]

Did anyone ever wonder *why* learners are limited to 250cc ?

YES!!!
It seems like a silly rule...especially given these Race 2-strokes putting out 60+ HP.

The whole 35HP limit seems more sensible to me...maybe it's just to hard to police

[ManDownUnder]

Did anyone ever wonder *why* learners are limited to 250cc ?

Because it's a limit that's easy to Police?

[Ixion]

The question was actually ironical.

If there was a wide choice of new 250cc bikes which young men did not consider "gutless", then the law would most certainly be changed , and the limit reduced to 125cc, as was the case in the UK.

The reason for the 250cc limit is precisely to prevent young men from learning to ride on machines that are not "gutless'. In the hope that they may perhaps survive to become somewhat older men. The relatively small fleet of aging race replica machines is under the radar.

[Maki]

"Can anyone tell me why 250cc bikes have to be either old or gutless?"

Because they only have 250cc. The first rule of internal combustion engines is: "There aint no substitute for cubic inches."

If you want more power, then get a bigger engine.

[Ocean1]

"There aint no substitute for cubic inches."

Smokey Unik iirc, a more qualified opinion would be hard to find.

Is there anything in the rules about engine modifications?

[Maki]

Modifying a 250 so it will make as much power as a 600 may be possible but it's hard, expensive and pointless. If you want 600 power, just get a 600.

[jade]

I want a gsxr 750 for my next bike
But I 100% believe a 2 stroke 250 is enough power for the road
I wont ever sell mine

[Maki]

I once rode a 500cc 2 stroke on the road. Scared the shit out of me, I can tell you.

[Japtwin]

Agree with most of the above, and I know this is not 'breaking news' but ye gods the price of old 250s is insane. been trying to find a 250 for an 'older' learner friend and am shocked at the prices for 15 year old tired bikes. Its a strange market. Maybe the new ninja will shake it up abit. Lots of dealers are selling 6 to 10 year old hornets for more than the price of the new ninja.
Maybe the Koreans should start making an imitation RGV, NSR, TZR.

[Maki]

Agree with most of the above, and I know this is not 'breaking news' but ye gods the price of old 250s is insane. been trying to find a 250 for an 'older' learner friend and am shocked at the prices for 15 year old tired bikes. Its a strange market. Maybe the new ninja will shake it up abit. Lots of dealers are selling 6 to 10 year old hornets for more than the price of the new ninja.
Maybe the Koreans should start making an imitation RGV, NSR, TZR.


That is so true. I walked into Wellington Motorcycles a while ago and was seriously urged to buy this bike http://www.motorcycle.co.nz/other/?id=35114
$9000 for a used 250! I was shocked speachless. I mumbled that I would think about it and ran out the door as fast as I could, yikes...

[jcupit69]

The Japanese market limited the bikes to 45hp, something to do with their taxation iirc. Anyway, they found they could produce that without resorting to an IL4, so that essentially killed them off. Tree huggers eassentially killed the 2 strokes off. The Japanese have their own interesting styling concepts and trends, and that's what killed the small race reps off (they have heaps of cool models we never see here, even as imports, as they'd never sell well enough).

Basically, on a 250, get yourself an RGV or RS250, if you want fast. They demand attention big time, to ride, and to maintain. They demand quality oil, and religiously topping it up or else. But in return, they give you maximum engine performance, and the lightest weight.

Where a CBR/ZXR250 is a fairly uninspiring sack of shit that feels like it has been well neutered (and of course, it has), a 2 stroke 250 delivers on all the promises.

You've got to be prepared to pay the price though, only you can decide if you're a 'real' biker, or 'just someone who rides bikes'. Of course, if you're not working full time, and you want to ride everywhere, then they may not suit your situation.... the IL4 250s are ok, neat handling, not too slow, but they just feel so boring... you could go to sleep on a ZXR250, a 2 stroke on the other hand will always let itself be known.

I've got 15 years on bikes now, and I've recently brought myself a 2 stroke 250... they're that addictive, that much better than an IL4 250 (in other words, no way in hell I'd bother buying a 250 other than a 2 stroke).

My 2cents... you're welcome to come to the CWNR tomorrow at 6, and have a yarn in person... I'll be on the Lucky Strike RGV250 :yes:

Cant agree with this guy more!!
The zxr c models are good and dont need that much attention, and its the same with the other 4 strokes, but when it comes down to it you cant beat the 2strokes for the power and the passion.
If you can get your hands on the rgv vj23a which was the rgv sp that ran from 97-98 if memory serves is a beautiful thing and has an electric start!!! trouble is only 2500 were ever produced however there is one somewhere in NZ, it was on trademe a while back.
Other than that i have to recomend the post 1998 rs 250 (they got upgraded suspension, bigger wheels, bigger bodywork and a better tuned engine than the pre 98 models), got amazing suspension all round, the brembos are rediculous, and the power is top of the 250s, meaning in the twistys you can keep up with just about anything. Its know wonder they were banned from production, their outragous for a 250!!!
The oil and maintinace are a bit annoying and you gotta let them warm up, but 5 minuits on a twisty road and you wont care. The italians make amazing bikes (even with jap motors), you just gota look at the 250 gp racing and see aprilia at the top for the past 10 odd years, n that should tell you enough bout the rs250. They are simply awsome!!!

[scottyolsen]

I've had a 250cc GSXR previously, and am now looking to buy another higher performance 250cc bike to keep with the licence rules, and finding it damn frustrating. It seems that the newest GSXR, CBR, and ZXR 250s on the market are 1995, and even getting that age is a stretch. I can understand that when you are on your learners or restricted licence it does make sense for the power of your bike to be restricted to the 250cc class, but why is it that there are no newer high performance bikes available? Does anyone know how something manufactured around 2000 is impossible to get (unless a 2-stroke is wanted?)
Can someone please give me the reason for this strange situation where the only bikes that can go fast in the 250cc class are at the age now where they have ancient technology, and old, old parts???????
they stop making 250cc bikes like the honda cbrr 250 and the yamaha fzrr 250 ones that achly go fast. they just brought out a ninja 250 its a peice of crap looks cool thats about it you need to get a 89 yamaha fzrr 250 like myn 21000 km and rvs out to 19000 beats all my mates 250s. nt slow at all

[BladeBoy]

hi. i own a cbr250rr its a `90. i brought it bout a year ago and it was just imported. it only had 15000 on the clock, whether or not that is the correct ks im not sure but its given me no problems. yea its old but as far as any 250s out there id say it would be one of the best round. up to `93 models have 45hp and after `93 all jap manufactures restricted the hp to 40 to conform to some starndard. as far as handling and accleration and top speed go its mint. the only way youd better it as on a 2stroke like the rgv or nsr.
comparing it to modern 250s like the hoyosung i wouldnt even bother ive seen 05 hoyosungs on trade me for as low as 4g id still get over 5 for mine.
but that just my opinion. good luck.

[cowboyz]

YES!!!
It seems like a silly rule...especially given these Race 2-strokes putting out 60+ HP.


actually, according to that posted website.. 110HP and 101kg. That thing woud certainly get up and go.


they stop making 250cc bikes like the honda cbrr 250 and the yamaha fzrr 250 ones that achly go fast. they just brought out a ninja 250 its a peice of crap looks cool thats about it you need to get a 89 yamaha fzrr 250 like myn 21000 km and rvs out to 19000 beats all my mates 250s. nt slow at all

Your name is not Mark by any chance is it? Sounds very familar.

[dave_a]

they stop making 250cc bikes like the honda cbrr 250 and the yamaha fzrr 250 ones that achly go fast. they just brought out a ninja 250 its a peice of crap looks cool thats about it you need to get a 89 yamaha fzrr 250 like myn 21000 km and rvs out to 19000 beats all my mates 250s. nt slow at all

yeah sure you sound like you know exactly what your talking bout,and you beat your mates oh cher bro good one a bro cuzzy g!.

good on you,but any single 600 on the road would smoke you so get over it your pissing in the wind

[Maki]

Why are some people obsessed with "powerful" 250 bikes? Sorry, but no 250 bike is particularly powerful. If you want a powerful bike, get one with a bigger engine.

[onearmedbandit]

I want a gsxr 750 for my next bike
But I 100% believe a 2 stroke 250 is enough power for the road
I wont ever sell mine

Just out of curiosity have you ridden (and by ridden I mean done some decent k's) on a larger bike? Not shit-stirring, just asking.

[Ixion]

I have. I'd agree with him, provided the journies be not too long (and don't require luggage or pillions)

[Ixion]

That's hardly practical . I'd settle for a 1000cc V twin two stroke, that weighed no more than a 250.

[Ixion]

Two IT465 donks on a common crankcase would be a good start.

[Ocean1]

<span style="color:#EDEEFA;">*blocks ears* lalalalalalalal I'm not listening.

This is how projects like this start... few of the boys having a joke one minute... CNC mill making a crankcase the next :eek:</span>

Caught myself thinking exactly that. Ridiculous idea, entirely irresponsible and unnecessary, dangerous.

I do happen to have a fucking great slab of 100mm tooling alloy down in the shop though.

What would you use for a donor chassis?

[Ocean1]

<span style="color:#EDEEFA;">Well, maybe a 916 chassis, it's got room for a thou twin? BUT NOOOOO!!!!</span>

So not a pair of CR500 top ends then?

Could glue them onto the Buell case I s'pose .:laugh:

Need new rods, and the expansion chambers would be a bitch...

[nudemetalz]

Just an overgrown bucket really....

Can I have a ride of the V-twin 1000 2-stroke please once it's complete.
Just gimme some warning so I can update my life insurance policy.... :eek:

[Ixion]

What have I started !

Of course, the weight of the huge steel balls the rider will need to have to pin the throttle , will take some of the edge off the performance.

[FilthyLuka]

1000cc two stroke, had that idea a while back, thought it was silly then, think its silly now...

Ill start drawing up plans for a crank case

Also gonna start a thread in Bike Mechanics going on 'bout this...

kx500 or cr500 top ends? hmm...

[Ocean1]

What have I started !

Of course, the weight of the huge steel balls the rider will need to have to pin the throttle , will take some of the edge off the performance.

Relax dude, I'm perfectly happy with the current Briggs & Stratton.

What'd be really cool is if SOMEONE ELSE wanted one, and I was allowed to play with the budget some...

[Ocean1]

1000cc two stroke, had that idea a while back, thought it was silly then, think its silly now...

Ill start drawing up plans for a crank case

Also gonna start a thread in Bike Mechanics going on 'bout this...

kx500 or cr500 top ends? hmm...

Yup, stupid idea.

Actually the Buell might not be a bad start, easier to make simple c/cases and glue them to the existing box rather than have to machine up a complete case.

Prob knock at least 10kg off the overall weight, and the missing cyl height might just allow over-the-top chambers through the original frame for the rear cyl, front one underneath..

But it's still silly.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Sports/auction-137507864.htm

.

[nudemetalz]

Ski-Doo make a 1000cc twin 2-stroke that puts out 170hp and probably a heck of a lot of torque.

I see Buell frame twisting into plasticine..... :laugh:

[jcupit69]

Heheheh, but you're another stroker owner, you're biased too :p

True, i'll never sell it, even when i move up, their too much fun, no wonder their illegal to produce

[jcupit69]

No need to be a cock about it... I'm out of rep for now, but you can expect your red in the mail :spanking:

rotfl, have some green bling for that!!:laugh:

[dave_a]

No need to be a cock about it... I'm out of rep for now, but you can expect your red in the mail :spanking:



when someone who just comes on here to stir shit saying other peoples bikes are crap of which they have not one bit of idea about, should I welcome them with hugs and kisses?

and good on you I couldnt care less about your opinion :niceone:

[Ocean1]

Ski-Doo make a 1000cc twin 2-stroke that puts out 170hp and probably a heck of a lot of torque.

I see Buell frame twisting into plasticine..... :laugh:

The Buell's frame is one of their more robust features, I think it would be fine.

I can see gearing changes, chains and sprockets, hassles with fuel delivery, exhausts and cranks though.

I can also see my arms turning to plasticine, should I be so unwise to attempt to ride such.

[jade]

Just out of curiosity have you ridden (and by ridden I mean done some decent k's) on a larger bike? Not shit-stirring, just asking.
I cant say Ive done heaps of k's, have taken 06 r6 for a few sessions at puke and taupo, as well as on the road
took k6 600 to coro and back
rf900 round the block
05 cbr for a decent spin
Not sure what year but took a 87-89 gixa for a hack, loose bruce was due to pick that bike up the day after his crash so he could make k5 full track

Like I said I havent clocked up heaps of k's but Ive clocked up 20,000 on this particular rs250 and I had another one and a nsr before that


For sports riding over short (<200km) distances, I'd agree with him. Once you get further afield, and don't want to spend the entire trip raping the bike (it does get tiring being on your toes all the time), then having a bit of low end torque to drag you out of corners at low revs is nice

I guess what I want is a hybrid V2 1000cc/250cc 2 stroke I can swap on the fly

I agree with you about the longer distances thing, I recently rode my bike to kaitaia in one hit - 400km each way, I had a heavy BIG pack but still had a good ride, I fit on the bike pretty well though and there were definately times when I wished I could hoist the front at 150k:Police:

Im off o/s soon, my goal is to be making swing arms and other assorted parts for aprilia racing, particulary the 250's
Ive lined up storage for my bike and when I get back, begin project rs500
take one rg400 engine, once rs250 chassis, bolt on 4 cylinders from my bike, throw money at it and wah lah, your own special race rep

http://www.rgv250.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=11778&st=120
RGV500
see pictures halfway down of his homemade exhaust system with arrow cans,^^amazing
On the next page she is all dressed up but I would have my own design rs fairings, plenty of carbon

He goes on to have plenty of dyno time getting 130bhp, he says he has owned all the big boys and nothing compares,
somewhere in that thread he reckons it rapes r1's and gixas on the straights at the track


True, i'll never sell it, even when i move up, their too much fun, no wonder their illegal to produce
Bling for that, Im the same

[gijoe1313]

:eek5::sweatdrop I yam scared of the crazy torque .. or talk on this thread! 1000cc v twin 2 stroker! Pffft! Madness I say! Madness? This is ... KB!!

Please keep posting and talking more of this heresy ... :shutup::corn:

[Ixion]

Its in the other thread - in the mechanical section

[gijoe1313]

Its in the other thread - in the mechanical section

Aye I be reading that! :sweatdrop

[skidMark]

:eek5::sweatdrop I yam scared of the crazy torque .. or talk on this thread! 1000cc v twin 2 stroker! Pffft! Madness I say! Madness? This is ... KB!!

Please keep posting and talking more of this heresy ... :shutup::corn:


This is madness!

This is Blasfamy

THIS IS SPARTAAA!

[skidMark]

That's hardly practical . I'd settle for a 1000cc V twin two stroke, that weighed no more than a 250.


ummm so a britten then???

or was it 4 stroke?:confused:

[Renegade]

i spoke to a guy the other week on a blue gsxr250 and it was registered as a 2003, maybe an import,it looked newish though

[onearmedbandit]

ummm so a britten then???

or was it 4 stroke?:confused:

Yeah it was a four stroke Mark.

[cowboyz]

i spoke to a guy the other week on a blue gsxr250 and it was registered as a 2003, maybe an import,it looked newish though

funny world we live in when something that is 5 years old can be considered "new"

[FilthyLuka]

funny world we live in when something that is 5 years old can be considered "new"

Well, i have a 22 year old bike thats new... to me... :apint:

[cowboyz]

i have never had the pleasure of buying a new bike. Sad but true.
But the 250 market is very limited and the price of old 250s I wouldnt be surprised to see an alarming ammount of the new hyos and ninja on the streets very soon.

[yoshi]

if u dont mind a naked bike u can get a newish 2000 cb250, theyr not to bad for power (well as far as 250s go)