white power

[FilthyLuka]

seriously now, i need some white power shocks

I managed to get my mitts on a 1986 GSXR750 oil boiler, but the rear shock is still stock and pretty sad. So, im looking for a WP 4014 Emulsion rear shock, or perhaps a fusion if the price is right. Anyone know a dealer or retailer in new zealand (double points if its they're in auckland) that stocks WP shocks?

TIA guys

[Shaun]

seriously now, i need some white power shocks

I managed to get my mitts on a 1986 GSXR750 oil boiler, but the rear shock is still stock and pretty sad. So, im looking for a WP 4014 Emulsion rear shock, or perhaps a fusion if the price is right. Anyone know a dealer or retailer in new zealand (double points if its they're in auckland) that stocks WP shocks?

TIA guys



Ray Clee Motors- Do not know his number sorry

If no joy with White power, get back to me Regarding the USA Penske units or even the Fox units I am now bringing into New zealand:Punk:

[FilthyLuka]

Ray Clee Motors- Do not know his number sorry

If no joy with White power, get back to me Regarding the USA Penske units or even the Fox units I am now bringing into New zealand:Punk:

yeah, i was looking at the Penske stuff

this in particular:

http://www.traxxion.com/store/detail.asp?product_id=SPORT

how does it stack up against WP emulsion?

[Shaun]

yeah, i was looking at the Penske stuff

this in particular:

http://www.traxxion.com/store/detail.asp?product_id=SPORT

how does it stack up against WP emulsion?

That Sports shock in paticular is brilliant for the price


Well, if you can trust me bahahaha :2guns: I think the Penske is as good as any other top brand on the market place

I will get you a price for one if you want?

You can contact me through my email address below

[JD Racing]

The Penske sport shock is a good option for that bike, it's a really nice shock for the money.

[Shaun]

The Penske sport shock is a good option for that bike, it's a really nice shock for the money.



Thanks for your healthy comment RE this product.

I have only recently learned that Max was doing this unit, and have spoken to a few riders in the states who use them, and they all say that they are very happy with them!

I have 10 units on the way now for a variety of bikes:banana:

[Robert Taylor]

seriously now, i need some white power shocks

I managed to get my mitts on a 1986 GSXR750 oil boiler, but the rear shock is still stock and pretty sad. So, im looking for a WP 4014 Emulsion rear shock, or perhaps a fusion if the price is right. Anyone know a dealer or retailer in new zealand (double points if its they're in auckland) that stocks WP shocks?

TIA guys

The Ohlins shock listed for this model is a hose reservoir type with independent rebound and compression adjustment, $1399 incl gst. Certainly more than an emulsion ( milkshake! ) shock and certainly also more than a single tube shock that has rebound adjustment only. Given that squat control is an issue the compression adjuster is a very good thing to have and decent damping control adjustment ( actually any at all ) allows compensation for a variance in surface conditions and to control spring movement in bump. If there is no compression adjustment you will be stuck with it and may very well not be struck with it! The instinct is to spring up to control squat but that can create issue with too much spring force for large shaft movements.
If you want the very best and also the very best service and backup there is no finer shock than Ohlins.

[Shaun]

The Penske Model number 8983 has all that the Ohlin's has to offer, in terms of Rebound adjustment and comression adjustment, as well as ride height adjustment

You know where to go to, to read about them www.traxxion.com

And they are also Quite a bit cheaper than the Ohlin's product, which is a great product:woohoo:

You know who to contact, if interested in a price

The only service I can offer you, is experience from an ex not bad rider:done:

[JD Racing]

If your on a limited budget go with the sport shock, if you have the money go with the 8983 it's a far superior sock to the Ohlins, the Ohlins has a steel body that wears and sends the oil black really fast, they need the oil and piston rings changing regularly, leave it too long to get it serviced and the sludge that builds up in the reservoir can affect the valving.

[Robert Taylor]

If your on a limited budget go with the sport shock, if you have the money go with the 8983 it's a far superior sock to the Ohlins, the Ohlins has a steel body that wears and sends the oil black really fast, they need the oil and piston rings changing regularly, leave it too long to get it serviced and the sludge that builds up in the reservoir can affect the valving.

Being The Ohlins Distributor I can only recite that what is written above is absolute baloney and that its all very well to fabricate such MISCHIEVOUS nonsense when hiding behind a position of anonymity. What axe is being ground here?
The internal wearing surface in fact has a plating and of course is cross honed. We see 40000ks or often much longer between services and certainly then you will replace the piston ring as you would any shock. Black sludge is something we only see regularly in oem suspension units, especially those that are not coated internally.
Point of fact, it is not only about price. When you purchase an Ohlins shock in NZ you get service and backup from far and away the most knowledgable service centre in NZ, with in excess of 20 years of external set up but also intimate experience with the INTERNALS of shocks. We have not just attended one manufacturers training school for 3 or 4 days and set ourselves up as ''suspension gurus'' Every shock we send out is set up specifically for the individual customers personal stats, loading and application, and btw we use the genuine Ohlins oil that is very stable over a very long period
With the three major top end brands its a no brainer what you would choose to distribute as a total package if you had first choice, Ohlins.

[Coyote]

If no joy with White power, get back to me Regarding the USA Penske units or even the Fox units I am now bringing into New zealand:Punk:
Fox shocks? They still make shocks? Thought they abandoned that to focus on the fashion industry :lol:


Can you get Ohlins on hire purchase?

[Shaun]

Fox shocks? They still make shocks? Thought they abandoned that to focus on the fashion industry :lol:


Fox are still at it, horses for courses of course, in terms of what quality versus money the customer wants to spend

Your wish is my desire



Can you get Ohlins on hire purchase?


Guess you would have the Ohlin's man that question dude:2guns:

[Robert Taylor]

Fox shocks? They still make shocks? Thought they abandoned that to focus on the fashion industry :lol:


Can you get Ohlins on hire purchase?

Bank interest rates are more attractive than HP rates! We specialise in suspension supply and very top level service, nothing else.

[Shaun]

Good morning Robert:niceone:

[JD Racing]

Being The Ohlins Distributor I can only recite that what is written above is absolute baloney and that its all very well to fabricate such MISCHIEVOUS nonsense when hiding behind a position of anonymity. What axe is being ground here?
The internal wearing surface in fact has a plating and of course is cross honed. We see 40000ks or often much longer between services and certainly then you will replace the piston ring as you would any shock. Black sludge is something we only see regularly in oem suspension units, especially those that are not coated internally.
Point of fact, it is not only about price. When you purchase an Ohlins shock in NZ you get service and backup from far and away the most knowledgable service centre in NZ, with in excess of 20 years of external set up but also intimate experience with the INTERNALS of shocks. We have not just attended one manufacturers training school for 3 or 4 days and set ourselves up as ''suspension gurus'' Every shock we send out is set up specifically for the individual customers personal stats, loading and application, and btw we use the genuine Ohlins oil that is very stable over a very long period
With the three major top end brands its a no brainer what you would choose to distribute as a total package if you had first choice, Ohlins.

There is absolutely no fabrication here whatsoever, I'm just saying what I see, I have no axe to grind at all, I'm quite happy to state that Ohlins aluminium bodied shocks are a very good shock, as are WP and Penske. Unfortunately many riders consider shocks to be a sealed for life component, if you service a 3 year old shock with a hard anodised aluminium body the oil comes out fairly clean, do the same with a steel bodied Ohlins and the oil will be black, this is not my imagination or a wild accusation to discredit Ohlins it's an absolute fact based upon nearly 2 decades of shock servicing, the older steel bodied WP shocks do the same thing as do Wilbers/Hyperpro/Technoflex that have steel bodies, the worst shocks ever are Works which have a bare aluminium body.

[FROSTY]

All the pro twins (650 twins) guys in the states rave on about the penske rear shocks in SV650's
Then again I rode Codgies SV650 and was blown away by how well an Ohlins works.
_proof positive I aint a suspension guru I guess

[Shaun]

Being The Ohlins Distributor I can only recite that what is written above is absolute baloney and that its all very well to fabricate such MISCHIEVOUS nonsense when hiding behind a position of anonymity. What axe is being ground here?
The internal wearing surface in fact has a plating and of course is cross honed. We see 40000ks or often much longer between services and certainly then you will replace the piston ring as you would any shock. Black sludge is something we only see regularly in oem suspension units, especially those that are not coated internally.
Point of fact, it is not only about price. When you purchase an Ohlins shock in NZ you get service and backup from far and away the most knowledgable service centre in NZ, with in excess of 20 years of external set up but also intimate experience with the INTERNALS of shocks. We have not just attended one manufacturers training school for 3 or 4 days and set ourselves up as ''suspension gurus'' Every shock we send out is set up specifically for the individual customers personal stats, loading and application, and btw we use the genuine Ohlins oil that is very stable over a very long period
With the three major top end brands its a no brainer what you would choose to distribute as a total package if you had first choice, Ohlins.




Was a tad surprised to read this reply Robert! Reads like you are openly calling JD Racing a LIAR?

He has as much history in the servicing side of Suspension as you do, and has as well complimented the Ohlin's brand many times, as well as the Penske brand etc-Horses for courses remember mate:Punk:

Probally not a very nice thing to accuse some one of on the internet, especially on a site, where the other party is also giving there time FOC, in replying to certain things that appeal to them, you calling him/her a Liar, could only potentually scare them away from this web site, which would be a huge LOSS to all the members on this site Dude.

Please stay involved in here JD Racing

[Shaun]

Well if an Ohlins steel bodied shock is plated and honed as RT says, and doesn't cause the oil to go black really fast as JD says, then what did you expect him to say?

We've (the KB community) been watching the underlying angst that appears to be in the local suspension market at the moment, with some interest... I'm guessing that most people are like me, and are only interested in the facts about each brands units, and not whatever market politics are currently going on.


Hence my post, FACTS!

I was just trying to help create a more open honest enviroment for all to be in here

[Sollyboy]

The Ohlins shock listed for this model is a hose reservoir type with independent rebound and compression adjustment, $1399 incl gst.

If he bought that shock it would triple the bikes value , surely he would want something second hand or just rebuild the old shock, the other alternative is to get a second hand OE shock from a later model bike

[FilthyLuka]

If he bought that shock it would triple the bikes value , surely he would want something second hand or just rebuild the old shock, the other alternative is to get a second hand OE shock from a later model bike

I actually kinda agree with you for once sollyboy

Im not looking at throwing 1.5K into a '86 slabbie just yet, so ohlins is out of the picture. I was looking at penske hoping to find the standard sport shock for around $800, similar with the basic WP emulsion, however the emulsion has turned out to be a wee bit steeper than i originally imagined.

If the penske sports is also gonna cost upward of $1200 i might just tear out the old shock and go get it rebuilt.

[Shaun]

I actually kinda agree with you for once sollyboy

Im not looking at throwing 1.5K into a '86 slabbie just yet, so ohlins is out of the picture. I was looking at penske hoping to find the standard sport shock for around $800, similar with the basic WP emulsion, however the emulsion has turned out to be a wee bit steeper than i originally imagined.

If the penske sports is also gonna cost upward of $1200 i might just tear out the old shock and go get it rebuilt.


Did I not give you a price on the Penske Sports shock? Way cheaper than the figure you mention above dude!

[FilthyLuka]

Assuming the body isn't gouged and rooted, and the piston doo dakey isn't worn out too, won't you just end up with a rebuilt piece of 86 technology? Doesn't seem like comparing apples with apples? :confused: I would've thought an old slabby was an appreciating asset these days?

That it is, but for some reason, slabbies with non genuine parts seem to go for less.

And if Shaun's right about the penske shock (no, you didn't email me back, price is not that bad eh?) then i will more than likely thwack that in, keep the stock shock for when the bike is sold :)

Same reason im gonna keep the old exhaust system, genuine part and all. Although the bike is runnning a bit manically compared to other old gsxr's, might be cam-ed, hmm...

[Sollyboy]

I actually kinda agree with you for once sollyboy

Im not looking at throwing 1.5K into a '86 slabbie just yet, so ohlins is out of the picture. I was looking at penske hoping to find the standard sport shock for around $800, similar with the basic WP emulsion, however the emulsion has turned out to be a wee bit steeper than i originally imagined.

If the penske sports is also gonna cost upward of $1200 i might just tear out the old shock and go get it rebuilt.

There was a guy near the harbour bridge who used to take your stock shock and work some real magic on it , he did one for me and it worked real well , Im about 140kg and shocks are sometimes not able to be set for my weight that well , so he changed some shims and other stuff inside the shock , he can also make new
shock parts from scratch like shafts etc , was a long time ago dont know if hes still abound

[Shaun]

That it is, but for some reason, slabbies with non genuine parts seem to go for less.

And if Shaun's right about the penske shock (no, you didn't email me back, price is not that bad eh?) then i will more than likely thwack that in, keep the stock shock for when the bike is sold :)

Same reason im gonna keep the old exhaust system, genuine part and all. Although the bike is runnning a bit manically compared to other old gsxr's, might be cam-ed, hmm...




Sorry dude, I can be a looser some times, my office Buisness skills, need a good talking too:bash: haha

Email me once again please, I have a great price for you then:rockon:

[FilthyLuka]

Sorry dude, I can be a looser some times, my office Buisness skills, need a good talking too:bash: haha

Email me once again please, I have a great price for you then:rockon:

dumdedoo, waitin for a price...

impatient? Me?! never... :sunny:

[FROSTY]

There was a guy near the harbour bridge who used to take your stock shock and work some real magic on it , he did one for me and it worked real well , Im about 140kg and shocks are sometimes not able to be set for my weight that well , so he changed some shims and other stuff inside the shock , he can also make new
shock parts from scratch like shafts etc , was a long time ago dont know if hes still abound
Tjebbe Bruin --Bloody nice guy -bit of a MX focus> he's done work for me Huge improvement in a factory pogged out CBR750 rear shock.

[Penta]

Ray Clee Motors- Do not know his number sorry

If no joy with White power, get back to me Regarding the USA Penske units or even the Fox units I am now bringing into New zealand:Punk:

For your info:

RCM Performance
WP Suspension
Henderson, Auckland
PH: 838 2036

[Badcat]

There was a guy near the harbour bridge who used to take your stock shock and work some real magic on it , he did one for me and it worked real well , Im about 140kg and shocks are sometimes not able to be set for my weight that well , so he changed some shims and other stuff inside the shock , he can also make new
shock parts from scratch like shafts etc , was a long time ago dont know if hes still abound

that sounds like Tjebbe bruin at Bruin engineering

Bruin Engineering - Tjebbe Bruin - 09 - 480 - 9408


he's pretty busy but very good.

ken

[sedge]

fYI: Hagon do a shock for the old GSXR too. My old one had one.

Cheers,

Sedge.

[FilthyLuka]

fYI: Hagon do a shock for the old GSXR too. My old one had one.

Cheers,

Sedge.

Ah, but the 64 thousand dollar question is, was it any good?

[JD Racing]

I hadn't considered for one second that Robert was accusing me of being a liar, he cares passionately about the product he imports and there's nothing wrong with that (perhaps verging a little on the paranoid though :laugh:)

The one common thing I see with all Ohlins guys is that they have an unwavering belief that Ohlins make the finest components ever manufactured and that everybody elses products are inferior, they make the best springs, the best shims the best oil, their tolerances are finer than anyone elses, their technology more advanced....and so it goes on. However in the multi billion pound motorsport that is formula 1 where the best of everything is a necessity Ohlins are conspicuous by their abscence, Showa, Penske, Sachs are all represented.

[DEATH_INC.]

fYI: Hagon do a shock for the old GSXR too. My old one had one.

Cheers,

Sedge.
If ya want one of these (the hagon), I have a mate with a brand new one that he doesn't need anymore.....lemme know and I'll find out what he wants for it...
For the record, I have a WP emulsion in my old turbo, it's brilliant. No complaints at all, and I've never had the desire to change the compression damping, they got it pretty right out of the box :yes:

[sedge]

Ah, but the 64 thousand dollar question is, was it any good?

It didn't wallow and it absorbed the bumps OK, handled pretty well for an old bike. A lot better than one with an antique knackered shock that's for sure.

Sedge.

[Cruisin' Craig]

......A lot better than one with an antique knackered shock that's for sure.

Sedge.

You talkin' about my bike behind my back?? :-)

[Shaun]

I hadn't considered for one second that Robert was accusing me of being a liar, he cares passionately about the product he imports and there's nothing wrong with that (perhaps verging a little on the paranoid though :laugh:)

The one common thing I see with all Ohlins guys is that they have an unwavering belief that Ohlins make the finest components ever manufactured and that everybody elses products are inferior, they make the best springs, the best shims the best oil, their tolerances are finer than anyone elses, their technology more advanced....and so it goes on. However in the multi billion pound motorsport that is formula 1 where the best of everything is a necessity Ohlins are conspicuous by their abscence, Showa, Penske, Sachs are all represented.



Fair enough and well said

My Apologies to Robert For what I said in my earlier posting, I guess His reply was what we should expect from some one as passionate about his buisness/product as Robert is

[Robert Taylor]

There is absolutely no fabrication here whatsoever, I'm just saying what I see, I have no axe to grind at all, I'm quite happy to state that Ohlins aluminium bodied shocks are a very good shock, as are WP and Penske. Unfortunately many riders consider shocks to be a sealed for life component, if you service a 3 year old shock with a hard anodised aluminium body the oil comes out fairly clean, do the same with a steel bodied Ohlins and the oil will be black, this is not my imagination or a wild accusation to discredit Ohlins it's an absolute fact based upon nearly 2 decades of shock servicing, the older steel bodied WP shocks do the same thing as do Wilbers/Hyperpro/Technoflex that have steel bodies, the worst shocks ever are Works which have a bare aluminium body.

Thankyou for putting it totally into perspective. The truth of the matter as you well realise is that shock oil doesnt get changed anywhere near as much as it should be. For example 17000 compression cycles EVERY lap on a typical MX track and lots of heat cycles. By the time it has been ''pulled, prodded, squeezed and poked'' it is well beyond its best. Even prior to discolouration from whatever cause.

[Robert Taylor]

All the pro twins (650 twins) guys in the states rave on about the penske rear shocks in SV650's
Then again I rode Codgies SV650 and was blown away by how well an Ohlins works.
_proof positive I aint a suspension guru I guess

The proof is in the pudding, he is the runaway points leader in F3, as are Bugden and Charlett in their classes respectively, all using Ohlins TTX36. TTX36 we custom build for the SV ( and Codgy has started a craze here ) Otherwise the more standard Ohlins shocks for these work very well with tuning and backup totally attuned to the market and well proven.

[Robert Taylor]

Well if an Ohlins steel bodied shock is plated and honed as RT says, and doesn't cause the oil to go black really fast as JD says, then what did you expect him to say?

We've (the KB community) been watching the underlying angst that appears to be in the local suspension market at the moment, with some interest... I'm guessing that most people are like me, and are only interested in the facts about each brands units, and not whatever market politics are currently going on.

I think its often about what people want others to beleive and what they are comfortable with. As for me, well Ill stand on my record of decades of solid after sales service in backing up a premium product. Ive had other products and phased them out, for good reason. But still provide just as solid backup for same.

[Robert Taylor]

If he bought that shock it would triple the bikes value , surely he would want something second hand or just rebuild the old shock, the other alternative is to get a second hand OE shock from a later model bike

Agreed. On a purely technical level you will get just as much improvement in fitting top shelf suspension, be it a $3000 or a $30000 bike. It depends in the end event whether you shell out for a moderate or a huge improvement. Ohlins shocks are always highly sought after second hand so its not once only dead money

[Pussy]

Agreed. On a purely technical level you will get just as much improvement in fitting top shelf suspension, be it a $3000 or a $30000 bike. It depends in the end event whether you shell out for a moderate or a huge improvement. Ohlins shocks are always highly sought after second hand so its not once only dead money

As I can attest to. I have only shelled out full price for two shocks in this household. Whenever a new bike has been purchased, there is normally a quick call to RT, and a trade-in organised for the Ohlins shock for the new bike. A not unreasonable few bucks later, RT takes the Ohlins shock from the old bike off my hands, to be replaced with a new one. Works for me

[Robert Taylor]

I hadn't considered for one second that Robert was accusing me of being a liar, he cares passionately about the product he imports and there's nothing wrong with that (perhaps verging a little on the paranoid though :laugh:)

The one common thing I see with all Ohlins guys is that they have an unwavering belief that Ohlins make the finest components ever manufactured and that everybody elses products are inferior, they make the best springs, the best shims the best oil, their tolerances are finer than anyone elses, their technology more advanced....and so it goes on. However in the multi billion pound motorsport that is formula 1 where the best of everything is a necessity Ohlins are conspicuous by their abscence, Showa, Penske, Sachs are all represented.

Thankyou for interpreting correctly what I was driving at! If I can be accused of paranoia its just that anyone in this country can at anytime in any trade set themselves up as an ''expert'', whilst I have some sympathy for the reforms of the free market we have in many ways gone too far. With respect to the field of suspension I think it is now well and truly justified as a trade in itself and there absolutely should be controls so that no 5 minute experts can get their hands on something with the potential to kill. Perhaps in my haste I have said that badly, but the fact is there is some appallingly bad work being done. FACT, FACT, FACT.
I dont think I can be accused of being one eyed with respect to the level you have suggested. I have evidenced some WP design that is very clever. And looking at the works level Showa stuff it is very impressive ( unavailable to the buying public ) There is no Ohlins company that I sing every morning.

Im glad youve mentioned Formula 1 as Ive often thought their chassis dynamics are not too far removed from go - karts, especially when you view the slomo images of them bouncing over kerbs. That they have any bump compliance at all is probably for the most part due to the tyres having big sidewalls. As with any aero function car the primary objective is to keep the chassis attitude as ''flat'' as possible to the ground to achieve maximum downforce at all times ( oversimplistically ) So arguably they are in certain aspects less challenging than optimising dampers for vehicles with either no or much less aero effect.

Ohlins were in Formula 1 several years back with Arrows before that team went belly up, and at the time Jos Verstappen was achieving results in that car beyond expectations. Yes, they are conspicuous by their absence but no less so than WP and Penske are conspicuously absent from MotoGP, and Penske absent from any meaningful European competition.

Its a question of available manpower but also one of the Ohlins engineers told me a few years back that because Ohlins have a very open policy with their technology it doesnt fit well with the secrecy within Formula 1. In any event Ohlins are probably making more revenue more easily by being the exclusive supplier to one of the Indycar racing series and to A1GP etc etc. As I can also recall Ohlins have won Le Mans for about the last 6 or 7 years continuously, and that is probably more challenging than F1. In the States their natural competitor is Penske in the Formula and Nascar series but Roger Penske has been known to run Ohlins in his cars.

On balance I do see that Ohlins is getting stronger all the time and this technology flows through.

[Robert Taylor]

All very nice, but doesn't help the punters :confused:

- Is there such a thing as an Ohlins steel bodied shock?
- If so, are they honed and plated?
- What sort of wear rate do they have?
- Under typical NZ road riding conditions, how long between rebuilds?
- How does one visually tell the difference between an alloy bodied and steel bodied one?
- Does it actually matter if the oil is sent black really fast? The discolouration is an indication of contamination I guess, but is that really important? Or does the oil just discolour quickly without performance loss?

Ohlins aren't in F1 coz cars are ghey :blip:

Yes, plated and honed. Many many more of the current shocks are now being replaced with hard coated aluminium body tubes. That may have as much to do with worldwide steel shortages.

I have seen these body tubes at 80,000 miles or more and have been able to reuse them. The soft alloy oem shock bodies used in the early 90s YZF750 Yamahas were trash at less than 10000 ks, typically.

40000 Ks approx is a good interval. Someone said something like ''bumps are bumps, anywhere in the world'' True enough but being displaced half a world away that guy doesnt realise that we have a much much higher percentage of roads ( and racetracks ) with nasty bumps. These in turn cause a much higher percentage of longer stroke movements. That is going to junk the oil and wear components sooner.

I think the discolouration factor has been overstated and the oil is still performing well with moderate discolouration. Oil technology is also like shock technology, it doesnt stand still.

Personally I have been a fan of race cars much longer than race bikes and in many ways continue to do so. The work that I have done for years with Carl Hansens TTX40 suspended Super GT series TVR Tuscan is invaluable. The mega dollar datalogging he has on this vehicle has given me a heightened understanding that I have in turn been able to apply within the bike world. So in my book cars are not gay!

[Robert Taylor]

If ya want one of these (the hagon), I have a mate with a brand new one that he doesn't need anymore.....lemme know and I'll find out what he wants for it...
For the record, I have a WP emulsion in my old turbo, it's brilliant. No complaints at all, and I've never had the desire to change the compression damping, they got it pretty right out of the box :yes:

Paul Thede from Race Tech said ''the best youve ridden is the best you know'' Interpretation, the compression damping could conceivably be a lot better, but you beleive its near perfect.There is no perfect setting!

The issue I have with emulsion shocks for our high percentage of bumpy roads is that prolonged high speed riding on such roads ( especially with g out depressions ) turns them into a milkshake and fade occurs. Especially so where the overall length is short with a relatively long stroke. Be it WP, Penske, Ohlins or the nasty cheap shocks on the market.

[Robert Taylor]

That's a good point :yes:

That's the Yamaha OEM Ohlins units right?

Thank you for taking all that time to explain those details :yes:

No, they were either a KYB or a Soqi unit, very much built to a price.

No problem

[FROSTY]

Something our local staunch LABOUR supporter wont mention is that although he is strongly pushing the Ohlins barrow he is also able to improve even the most primitive of front susspenders --even Shineray

[onearmedbandit]

Good point Tony. I'm over the moon with the Ohlins shock (along with the Ohlins steering dampner) I off bought off RT for the thou, noticeable improvement right away. Now I can't afford a set of Ohlins forks, but I can afford to get the standard front suspenders tickled up. I know where they will be going (once I can convince myself to take the bike off the road).

[Robert Taylor]

Something our local staunch LABOUR supporter wont mention is that although he is strongly pushing the Ohlins barrow he is also able to improve even the most primitive of front susspenders --even Shineray

Youre successfully winding me up! There is just no help for the most primitively insane ''Government'' in our history. Roll on election day.

[FROSTY]

Lmao ohh Rob you are so predictable.
None the less-theres a shineray front end heading your way once the nats are over with.

[trustme]

You hope for a labour win so everyone fucks off to OZ so RT has no clients = lead time for work on your shit bucket is reduced.
There is method in your madness!!!
Just doesn't alter the fact you are still mad. IMHO

[JD Racing]

Thankyou for interpreting correctly what I was driving at! If I can be accused of paranoia its just that anyone in this country can at anytime in any trade set themselves up as an ''expert'', whilst I have some sympathy for the reforms of the free market we have in many ways gone too far. With respect to the field of suspension I think it is now well and truly justified as a trade in itself and there absolutely should be controls so that no 5 minute experts can get their hands on something with the potential to kill. .

I admire the sentiment but how you would achieve that I don't know, worldwide there is only Racetech that offer any form of formal training for guys off the street, I've never been on one of their courses but I would think it more involves marketing the Thede doctrine than anything else. A lot of distributors of all brands are staffed and run by people who are simply parts fitters, I would say that someone like yourslef who actually knows what he's talking about is the exception to the rule.

[FROSTY]

You hope for a labour win so everyone fucks off to OZ so RT has no clients = lead time for work on your shit bucket is reduced.
There is method in your madness!!!
Just doesn't alter the fact you are still mad. IMHO
-Yea --last one out turn the lights out.

[Robert Taylor]

I admire the sentiment but how you would achieve that I don't know, worldwide there is only Racetech that offer any form of formal training for guys off the street, I've never been on one of their courses but I would think it more involves marketing the Thede doctrine than anything else. A lot of distributors of all brands are staffed and run by people who are simply parts fitters, I would say that someone like yourslef who actually knows what he's talking about is the exception to the rule.

Yes and well.....a formal motorcycle apprenticeship in NZ ( and the rest of the world ) only covers the very basics of suspension. And nor probably should it do more so as this has become a specialist field that is a whole trade in itself.

A Race Tech course does give a good insight but make an instant suspension expert overnight it patently does not. And as you have intimated it is indeed from one perspective and with limitations. Its good, but frankly I have personally learnt a great deal more by many trips to the Ohlins factory in Sweden. And there is so much that as you well know is not in a textbook. I beleive that only after about 6-8 years of working full time stripping and valving suspension units do you even start to become an expert. That must neccessarily be allied with in the field set up experience. And even then, working with dirt bike suspension can be a polar opposite to working with road race or auto suspension for downforce cars etc. YOU DO NOT STOP LEARNING IN THIS GAME and there are forever ongoing improvements that are made.

Maybe there are derisory comments from time to time that we are seen at tracks revalving shocks in our trailer, that this is ''taking it to the extreme'' Well, this is doing no more than what suspension technicians do at MotoGP, WSBK, AMA etc. Be it WP, Ohlins, Penske or works Showa, KYB etc. Everyone is trying to find a few tenths here and there.

I can vouch that ''taking it to the extreme'' by revalving on site has taught me a hell of a lot, more than any course could equip me with.

[JD Racing]

I can vouch that ''taking it to the extreme'' by revalving on site has taught me a hell of a lot, more than any course could equip me with.

What you really need is a good rider that thinks he knows what he wants and talks a good job and complains incessantly so you chase your arse trying stuff that you know should work, stuff you know won't work, stuff you think might work, and stuff you hope and pray might work, go round in circles a few times, get nowhere then he gets a new girlfriend/boyfriend/sheep starts getting laid regularly and suddenly the bike is perfect. Having been through that a million and one times my all night sessions revalving at the track are no longer...good quality external adjusters with a broad working range are the way for me.

[Robert Taylor]

What you really need is a good rider that thinks he knows what he wants and talks a good job and complains incessantly so you chase your arse trying stuff that you know should work, stuff you know won't work, stuff you think might work, and stuff you hope and pray might work, go round in circles a few times, get nowhere then he gets a new girlfriend/boyfriend/sheep starts getting laid regularly and suddenly the bike is perfect. Having been through that a million and one times my all night sessions revalving at the track are no longer...good quality external adjusters with a broad working range are the way for me.

I hear what you are saying but in spite of what you wish for ( and what some have fooled themselves into beleiving ) there is no such shock. Every shock made still has alternative inner valving and bleed bypass specs and of course will still require alternative springs for different weight riders. If the spring change is substanial then of course it needs a different rebound stack etc. Just a week ago I traded an American shock with a supposedly broad adjustment range against a TTX36. Fitment of that TTX36 instantly yielded better finishing results for the rider. In fact the clicker setting range on that TTX36 is just as broad and a whole lot easier to understand. A dyno is not required to view the combinations of curves because Ohlins have done all the work for you.

[JD Racing]

I hear what you are saying but in spite of what you wish for ( and what some have fooled themselves into beleiving ) there is no such shock. Every shock made still has alternative inner valving and bleed bypass specs and of course will still require alternative springs for different weight riders. If the spring change is substanial then of course it needs a different rebound stack etc. Just a week ago I traded an American shock with a supposedly broad adjustment range against a TTX36. Fitment of that TTX36 instantly yielded better finishing results for the rider. In fact the clicker setting range on that TTX36 is just as broad and a whole lot easier to understand. A dyno is not required to view the combinations of curves because Ohlins have done all the work for you.

If you have a shock basic design that has not changed for a number of years, your going to the same tracks that you've always been to, you operate in the same temperature spectrum you've always worked in, tyres only grip a tiny fraction more every year, power only goes up a small amount each year, what changes are there that need such drastic action every weekend?

[Robert Taylor]

If you have a shock basic design that has not changed for a number of years, your going to the same tracks that you've always been to, you operate in the same temperature spectrum you've always worked in, tyres only grip a tiny fraction more every year, power only goes up a small amount each year, what changes are there that need such drastic action every weekend?

I never at any time stated that ''drastic action was needed every weekend'' The fact of the matter is nothing stands still re technology ( with most progressive companies anyway ) Up until last year we were running Traxxion cartridges. We slowly changed over to Ohlins 25mm FGK cartridges last year and this year have sold a whole bunch of them. Now that we have embraced the concept of ''bending shim stack midvalve'' and learnt how to tune them it is clear to everyone using them that they are a great leap forward from the 20mm stuff with checkplate midvalves. Andrew Stroud was running WP up until last year is now using Ohlins FGK and loves how they work plus the fact we are happy to instal ongoing improvements trackside.

With the rear ends TTX36, these work quite differently to dampers that rely totally on shaft displacement to move oil and therefore ''build damping'' I learnt some new techniques whilst helping Ohlins with Philip Island tests in January and have been applying those principles during our road race nationals. At all 3 rounds the 1000cc and 600cc class lap records have been broken, with in some cases several riders under the lap record, and it is not because the bikes are more powerful!

Nothing wrong with doing the hard yards to improve lap times?

Interestingly I spoke to the 2 American riders racing here who told me that they are in the States using US made suspension components. They say that the Ohlins stuff they are using here blows it out of the water and that the Yankee shocks are finicky to set up. Having dynoed these shocks I can understand how people have trouble, especially understanding the ''overlap'' of low speed and high speed settings. As a suspension engineer yourself you will know exactly what I am referring to. It is not the holy grail some think it is, quite the opposite.

The fact is here in NZ it is perhaps a little akin to being in Siberia. There is no -one next door to lean on so much has to be learnt by oneself. I could take the easy route and do nothing and then everything would be mediocre, but my parents instilled a solid work ethic. If in my own way I have helped to raise the level of suspension understanding here in this banana republic then well and good, it has also raised riders expectations. If that is going to produce better road racers then great.

[greenman]

Hi,
Am I correct in stating the the holy grail of damping is for it to be proportional to velocity.
that is : D=K.v
But in reality, due to visocity and turbulance of the oil flow some highly non-linear effects happen which mean that the damping is now proportional to velocity squared and cubed.
D=K.v+J.v.v + L.v.v.v
K, J and L being constants.

And that all the shim stacks, bleed holes and valving is trying to do is instill some linear behaviour in the fluid damping?

So, why don't Ohlins etc put some electronics around the standard damper to control the valving and get some better control of the damping. Surely it would come down to a simple PID type control loop?
I've worked on Rexroth valve controls and they were doing it 20 years ago with analog electronic circuits. These were on big rams and hydralic motors, but the same type of valve control is surely possible with ity bity dampers?

[Tony.OK]

Hi,
Am I correct in stating the the holy grail of damping is for it to be proportional to velocity.
that is : D=K.v
But in reality, due to visocity and turbulance of the oil flow some highly non-linear effects happen which mean that the damping is now proportional to velocity squared and cubed.
D=K.v+J.v.v + L.v.v.v
K, J and L being constants.

And that all the shim stacks, bleed holes and valving is trying to do is instill some linear behaviour in the fluid damping?

So, why don't Ohlins etc put some electronics around the standard damper to control the valving and get some better control of the damping. Surely it would come down to a simple PID type control loop?
I've worked on Rexroth valve controls and they were doing it 20 years ago with analog electronic circuits. These were on big rams and hydralic motors, but the same type of valve control is surely possible with ity bity dampers?

:scratch::eek5:

[Sollyboy]

Hi,
Am I correct in stating the the holy grail of damping is for it to be proportional to velocity.
that is : D=K.v
But in reality, due to visocity and turbulance of the oil flow some highly non-linear effects happen which mean that the damping is now proportional to velocity squared and cubed.
D=K.v+J.v.v + L.v.v.v
K, J and L being constants.

And that all the shim stacks, bleed holes and valving is trying to do is instill some linear behaviour in the fluid damping?

So, why don't Ohlins etc put some electronics around the standard damper to control the valving and get some better control of the damping. Surely it would come down to a simple PID type control loop?
I've worked on Rexroth valve controls and they were doing it 20 years ago with analog electronic circuits. These were on big rams and hydralic motors, but the same type of valve control is surely possible with ity bity dampers?

I saw a mountain bike shock that was sorta electronic , it automatically regulated somehow, and there was a shock on some aircraft similar to a TL1000 shock (rotary damper) and it had very very fine metal particles in the oil , more or less damping was dialed up in milli seconds by magnetising the metal laden oil with an electric coil, is that what you mean?shock and forks work very well considering there simplicty , better than they should in a way just like good old fashioned carbs

[greenman]

From my understanding, a simple feedback loop control could be built with a positional sensor on the damper stroke and a microcontroller and a valve to regulate the oil flow. Then you could have any charactoristics you would ever want. Once you have the physical stuff (valves and controller) then it is just a case of software.
You could have the crappyist valve in the world and the software would just drive it to control the damping. So long as it could open wide and fast enough not to get into a turbulent flow condition.

[Robert Taylor]

From my understanding, a simple feedback loop control could be built with a positional sensor on the damper stroke and a microcontroller and a valve to regulate the oil flow. Then you could have any charactoristics you would ever want. Once you have the physical stuff (valves and controller) then it is just a case of software.
You could have the crappyist valve in the world and the software would just drive it to control the damping. So long as it could open wide and fast enough not to get into a turbulent flow condition.

1) Its not as simple as you make out. Bending shim stacks doing a surprisingly great job of modulating oil flow. I would have to wonder about the frequency response of electronic valves?

2) Ohlins have been at the forefront of selling and ongoing development with their CES electronic control valve for cars for many years. Over a million delivered to major car companies. Passenger cars on relatively smooth surfaces are less of a challenge than say the Audi Le Mans cars which use conventional hydraulic Ohlins dampers to very good effect

3) Cost, especially development

4) Be patient, if the system ( anybodies ) was foolproof and adequately developed it would already be out there

and 5 ) As someone else broadly eluded to there is a parallell to how long carburetors have survived. Given that many of the fuel injection systems on many of todays bikes are by no means perfect one has to wonder

The theory is fine in practice but.....is it working well enough yet?

is the market actually ready for it?

what is it goinG to cost in development and what is the commercial risk?

ETC

[cowpoos]

So long as it could open wide and fast enough not to get into a turbulent flow condition.
Probally not quick enough...for racing conditions...having a track mapped for acceleration points,bumps,braking..etc...etc...and having the suspension react accordingly would be nice...but real world...electronics would be hard pushed to react to damping as it happens...as...as the sensor is detecting...it should already be reacting and should already have reacted!! to late!

I'm sure there are advance's to be made in this area...by combining engine torque inputs and braking inputs too, different low speed damping rates via sensors to allow for softer damping mid corner for bump absorbtion and keeping a close to ideal ride/geometry and more resistance to the forces of acceleration and braking...

[cowpoos]

Passenger cars on relatively smooth surfaces are less of a challenge than say the Audi Le Mans cars which use conventional hydraulic Ohlins dampers to very good effect


I dunno if conventional is the right word Robert.

Don't they have a very technical balancing valving system and resivour between left and right side dampers to keep more inside pressure on wheels for grip while cornering???

[Robert Taylor]

I dunno if conventional is the right word Robert.

Don't they have a very technical balancing valving system and resivour between left and right side dampers to keep more inside pressure on wheels for grip while cornering???

Indeed they do. But again I emphasise that the application is arguably less challenging for passenger car use.