Bike out of commission

[JWALKER]

asking for help from canterbury bikers.
if anyone knows of anyone bragging about putting oil into someones brake lines, i would appreciate a heads up, as it was done to me.
thank you

[Steam]

Why would someone do that? You got enemies? That's worth serious retaliation. Not that I condone that sort of thing, but whew!

[phoenixgtr]

What the hell??? Who would do that?

[No FX]

dude that sux the big one! where did it happen? they must hav had a wee bit of time to do it.

i dunno if i can help track them down but ill be keen to help deal to them when you do find out

[phoenixgtr]

dude that sux the big one! where did it happen? they must hav had a wee bit of time to do it.

i dunno if i can help track them down but ill be keen to help deal to them when you do find out

I'm with him!!

That's not an opportunistic thing. Someone has planned this

[JWALKER]

i didnt think i had enemies in christchurch. there are couple of people i have had disagreements with, but, even i know they would not do something as bad as that.

i noticed on the way back from akaroa on sunday, but the bikes were parked across ther road from bully hayes, and we were sitting at bully hayes having coffee, so im stumped, but, really ticked off, cause for one it means im out of racing at the drags:angry2:

[dave_a]

was it just you it happened to?

because if it was id say it was definatly planned

[Mikkel]

How did you find out that there was oil in your brake lines?
Also, is there any other possibility than someone deliberately sabotarging your bike?

[FROSTY]

what makes you think theres oil in there?
As someone else posted maybee ya better warn the other riders you were with

[Big Dog]

If fucking with brakes is not attempted homicide it aught to be.

[T.W.R]

Man, someones done an interesting job as it isn't a 5second thing to bleed a brake system or even contaminate a reservoir

[Motig]

Are you sure of the oil in brake lines? Seems a bit strange. Is it all oil and no brake fluid in the system or just a small amount. When was the fluid changed last was it contaminated then perhaps or did the level look low and you topped it up with a dash of oil without realising it. Is the bike garaged or left outside all the time. Just trying to be logical thinking here as it would certainly be pretty extreme for someone to deliberately do it.

[JWALKER]

what makes you think theres oil in there?
As someone else posted maybee ya better warn the other riders you were with

yes, the only reason i found out it was, because the mechanic at sportzone showed me yesterday, when i went in.
its definately oil

[JWALKER]

How did you find out that there was oil in your brake lines?
Also, is there any other possibility than someone deliberately sabotarging your bike?

im not sure

[JWALKER]

Are you sure of the oil in brake lines? Seems a bit strange. Is it all oil and no brake fluid in the system or just a small amount. When was the fluid changed last was it contaminated then perhaps or did the level look low and you topped it up with a dash of oil without realising it. Is the bike garaged or left outside all the time. Just trying to be logical thinking here as it would certainly be pretty extreme for someone to deliberately do it.

i took my bike into the shop to replce the front brake pads andd check the back recently, but they are very adament that it was fine, when it left there and they know the difference between oil and brake fluid

[Smokin]

Please forgive me for being a plonker, But what exactly does oil in brake lines do? I know it's quite thick compared to brake fluid but that's the end of my knowledge on the matter.

[xwhatsit]

Well, I don't know much about hydraulics too, but the useful thing about normal hydraulic brake fluid is that it doesn't compress very well. Normal oil does compress. So you would grab a handful of brakes, the lever would squeeze, the oil in the line would compress and nothing would happen at the caliper end.

[FROSTY]

brake fluid is (for the sake of this argument) water. Oil is oil--
oil causes massive issues with at the minimum all the seals in the system possibly the brake lines too
By issues in a nutshell I mean --it destroys em

[Smokin]

Ahhh, Thanks for clearing that up. I can see how it can cause problems now.

[Mikkel]

Well, I don't know much about hydraulics too, but the useful thing about normal hydraulic brake fluid is that it doesn't compress very well. Normal oil does compress. So you would grab a handful of brakes, the lever would squeeze, the oil in the line would compress and nothing would happen at the caliper end.

No, Oil does NOT compress! That's why you can use it for hydraulics. Liquids as a general rule does not compress - that's why the pressure increase when diving in the ocean increases linearly, not potentially, with depth.


brake fluid is (for the sake of this argument) water. Oil is oil--
oil causes massive issues with at the minimum all the seals in the system possibly the brake lines too
By issues in a nutshell I mean --it destroys em

Yeah, it'll fuck the seals I guess.



But Jeff, if someone with enough brains to dick around with your bike wanted you dead they would have done one of two things:

1. Cut the brakeline 85% through - it will then only fail when you REALLY need your brakes.

2. Put water in your brake fluid - when the brakes heat up (let's say a trip over the hill to Akaroa) it will evaporate... And trust me - you can compress steam, that's what they call brake fading. Just that's a small fraction of water to brakefluid - if you put in a whole lot it would get rather nasty very very quickly.

Hope you get it sorted out - but don't go paranoid already. :yes:

[xwhatsit]

No, Oil does NOT compress! That's why you can use it for hydraulics. Liquids as a general rule does not compress - that's why the pressure increase when diving in the ocean increases linearly, not potentially, with depth.

Hey, you're right! Look who's a dumbarse. Apparently it does compress -- a little -- but it's a tiny amount.

S'why I stick to fiddling with drum brakes :lol:

[MVnut]

Usually not a lot of extra room inside a reservoir so I presume some brake fluid must have been removed before any oil could have been added. Has anyone done any servicing recently, mistakes happen you know (although this is a biggie)

[jade]

I dont think anyone sabotaged your brakes,
I reckon the apprentice where you got your pads done put oil in your lines instead of brake fluid

[Motig]

Yes, if they've just been done recently I would suspect a cock up re the fluids.

[Paulus]

Many years ago a friend bought a bottle of PJ1 premix oil from Tommys Yamaha and when he poured it into his mixing container it was like water. Took it back to Tommys and it turned out it was brake fluid incorrectly packaged in a premix oil bottle! Mistakes can happen - even at a factory.

[Mikkel]

Hey, you're right! Look who's a dumbarse. Apparently it does compress -- a little -- but it's a tiny amount.

S'why I stick to fiddling with drum brakes :lol:

Nah mate, didn't mean to imply you were a dumbarse :no:

And yeah, most liquids will compress - as you say - a little... very very little.
But it's not like it's obvious or common knowledge...

Drum brakes? :eek::crazy: you're a brave man! :yes:

[JWALKER]

yes, one of the bike shops recently serviced the bike and did the brake pads and stuff.
but, i spoke to them and they said they know the difference between fluids and there is no way they could have done it, they are not that stupid, but at the moment im thinking the opposite.
also, i think they are going to make me pay, to fix up trhis incident, which im not very impressed about

[FROSTY]

dude what kinda master cylinder you got--4 screws or just screw lid?

[JWALKER]

its the back one and im pretty sure its only two screws

[jonbuoy]

Does sound like it could be a fuck up - if you wanted to tamper/sabotage you'd do the fronts for sure. More likely someone would just tip the bike over rather than undo screws siphon out brake fluid and top up with oil. I think your shit out of luck proving it if they did them a while ago and only you only just noticed.

[Macktheknife]

Sounds more like a screw up to me, it would be a lot of work for someone and they would have to be pretty pissed with you. If they were pissed enough to do that, I don't think they would just do the back one.

Speak carefully to the bike shop, make it clear you understand mistakes happen etc, that all you want is to get it sorted.

Good luck.

[Ixion]

Is the hydraulic resevoir perhaps within drip range of the oil filler hole? Bearing in mind that overflow can run down edges etc?

I'm think mechanic is refilling / topping up oil, notes that rear brake needs more brake fluid, removes resevoir top, fills up oil into engine, doesn't notice oil dribbling down side into open resevoir. Then galnces at resevoir "oh, it is full, must be my eyes playing up, oh well.

[Forest]

I think that the mechanic at the bike shop screwed up, or someone used a mislabeled tin of brake fluid.

This is by far the simplest explanation.

[jim.cox]

Sounds more like a screw up to me, it would be a lot of work for someone and they would have to be pretty pissed with you. If they were pissed enough to do that, I don't think they would just do the back one..

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"


Speak carefully to the bike shop, make it clear you understand mistakes happen etc, that all you want is to get it sorted.

Thats good advice...

[JWALKER]

i tried talking to them before and they said it has nothing to do with them and i will have to pay to have it fixed

[JWALKER]

Does sound like it could be a fuck up - if you wanted to tamper/sabotage you'd do the fronts for sure. More likely someone would just tip the bike over rather than undo screws siphon out brake fluid and top up with oil. I think your shit out of luck proving it if they did them a while ago and only you only just noticed.

ony got it a week and a half ago and it already been back to them cause my paint job was not finished properly

[NinjaNanna]

Unless you got warranty concerns - take IMDYING up on his offer to help you sort it out. Then write it off as one of those things.

[avgas]

Hate to state the really obvious here but if i were to sabotage a bike, and no one saw me, i would pop the cap off ya master cylinder and leave the fucker off.
Oil in your brakes means one of 2 things : your brakes were emptied and oil put in or b) they forced oil into the brakes without the cap off. Otherwise brake fluid fall all over the lovely plastics.
Basically long story short - if someone messed with ya brakes for the sake of messing.......every painted surface etc on the bike within leaking distance would show it.
You have been had by the garage.
FYI if i was working on a bike, i drained the brake fluid - found oil. The next step in my process is to call the owner.

[Mikkel]

I guess you just know where not to take your bike next time...

[Silage]

I wouldn't want to pour more oil on a fire here J but if your rear reservoir is as hard to get a screwdriver onto it as mine then I would suggest that it is very unlikely that this was done outside a workshop. If your brakes have been serviced recently and you don't know of any other time that the lid has been off then that is the most likely point of contamination.

It is to expected that bike shops with a good reputation will want to protect that, especially where they can see no way that they stuffed up. If it is still possible to have a rational discussion with them it might be good to go in when you are calm and discuss the likelyhood of sabotage vs accidental error. If you don't make progress, walk away and get it fixed elsewhere and put it down to experience.

[HungusMaximist]

Do what the americans do, file a lawsuit..

[EnzoYug]

you're getting fucked at the shop.

you'd have to have some SERIOUS mother fucking enemies to screw with your brakes. And if they did - why didn't they do a good enought job for you to notice it or get hurt?

I'd say the bike shop is giving you the fuck-a-round. Take it back, don't take no for an answer.
Unless you know someone who's got it out for you in a "im going to cause him a semi-serious inconvenience by messing with his brakes - but i don't want to hurt him..." yeah right.

[JWALKER]

yeah, i have the same opionon as you guys. but the bike shop mwont play ball, so will probably have a talk to IMDYING tonight and see what we can do

[Forest]

yeah, i have the same opionon as you guys. but the bike shop mwont play ball, so will probably have a talk to IMDYING tonight and see what we can do

If the bike shop won't admit responsibility, then you might want to consider using the forum to name & shame.

Or not.

It is your choice.

[JWALKER]

im thinking about doing that, but want to have another talk with them first. they are going to now charge me just under $400 to fix their mistake

[fireliv]

If its the bike shop that tris told me you went to then I would like your chances. They were right assholes when they attempted to fix my bike and made it worse. GOt the "all clear" then when we called about it not runnign propery got " yeah we know that, thats what you get for buying a cheap import..."

Hope you have more luck than I did!

[offrd]

Possible the apprentice or some other dimwit put hydraulic (or sim) oil in the hydraulic brakes rather than brake fluid in the "hydraulic" brakes.... or at least topped it up with hyd oil.
Thats my pick, been a mechanic for 15 years and i have seen apprentice do it once. While toping up the fluids during a service on a car... Lucky the young guy had second thoughts about what he had done and problem was quickly sorted!

Oil is not compatable with the rubber used in brake components, causes softening and swelling and FAILURE. :buggerd:

If it was some nasty person that did it trying to kill you, Make sure you kill them first!

[gav]

Its unlikely a m/c shop is going to have hydraulic oil just lying around, how often would you use hydraulic oil on m/cs?
The only oil I'd think you could possibly mix up with it would be fork oil. Its often in a similiar bottle.
You've already named one bike shop in the thread, and obviously a shop isnt going to admit that they could possibly get it wrong.
So have you taken it back to the original shop then or is it at Sportzone?

[karla]

yeah, i have the same opionon as you guys. but the bike shop mwont play ball, so will probably have a talk to IMDYING tonight and see what we can do

Couple of suggestions - from now on always have someone with you when you talk to anyone at the bike shop (witness), and write down everything you tell them, and everything they say. Sounds to me like there's a very good chance you will need this later, as there could be a small claims around this if you feel annoyed enough about it and are prepared to put in a little time.

I'd do it on principle; even if you can afford to get the bike fixed there are heaps of people (mostly young'uns) who get taken advantage of because they just accept that they are in the wrong, when they aren't. It pisses me off, as in a perfect world no one should be allowed to get away with abuse of other people's trust.

grrrrr....

[Mikkel]

Just get a dictaphone - insist on taping every conversation made about servicing and repair jobs. Either that or make sure all communication happens in writing - in triplicate!

Or, go easy and accept that you run the risk of getting fucked over. Honesty and integrity are not something that can be taken for granted.

[karla]

Just get a dictaphone - insist on taping every conversation made about servicing and repair jobs. Either that or make sure all communication happens in writing - in triplicate!

Or, go easy and accept that you run the risk of getting fucked over. Honesty and integrity are not something that can be taken for granted.

I'm not sure if taped conversations are able to be used as evidence.

When I was a youth my car was fixed incorrectly and it caught fire after I picked it up. The garage didn't want to know, but I got a father's friend to talk to them, and he told them I would take it to court. They paid out because it was cheaper for them to do that then it was to pay for lawyers/take time off to fight it etc.

Mind you, my Peugot was only worth $900 :)

You do need to be sure that they aren't going to accept any responsibility or meet you half way, before you file a small claims against them. I imagine it will be hard for them to prove that they didn't make a mistake.

[JWALKER]

Its unlikely a m/c shop is going to have hydraulic oil just lying around, how often would you use hydraulic oil on m/cs?
The only oil I'd think you could possibly mix up with it would be fork oil. Its often in a similiar bottle.
You've already named one bike shop in the thread, and obviously a shop isnt going to admit that they could possibly get it wrong.
So have you taken it back to the original shop then or is it at Sportzone?

its still at sportzone at the moment, until i decide what to do with it.

i would rather not name the bikeshop that is at the fault in the thread, i believe they are at fault, butt, im not into slacking their name off. just more wanted to see if i was the only one that thought it was possible for the mechanic to make a simple mistake.


i have a lawyer who does not charge me, seen he is a family friend and he is very ready to get stuck into them.

i talked to the manager of the place today and he wont accept their is any way they could have mde a mistake

[JWALKER]

It pisses me off, as in a perfect world no one should be allowed to get away with abuse of other people's trust.

grrrrr....

i totally agree. i thought i might have talked to them and meet halfway, bout the costs, but, they said that its not their fault one bit and i have to pay for the whole lot :bash:

[MaxB]

To go after the bike shop legally you have to be able to prove that they did it.

Even as a minimum you will need evidence that the bike was fine before they worked on it and not fine afterwards. Also you could get an ex employee to spill the beans.

That is a lot of work just to get the dealer to settle out of court. Even if it ends up in court you may not win.

FWIW from what you have said I think they probably did it. A crim scumbag would have to have had undisturbed access to your bike for maybe 15 mins and leave the scene without spilling a drop or being seen. Tui ad.

[karla]

To go after the bike shop legally you have to be able to prove that they did it.



I'd turn that around actually. As a consumer you don't have to take the world on your shoulders, it's actually the business that needs to (as they will carry on in business, so they need to show integrity etc for future customers). They have to prove that they did not do it - saying that they didn't do it isn't enough. The bike was fine before you took it there, they did work in that area, and it now has a problem. Most reasonable businesses today would promptly admit a mistake, as mistakes aren't a black mark against them, they are just human errors.

The workshop must prove beyond reasonable doubt there were no mistakes made.

Seems to me that just about everyone reading this thread, who knows about motorbikes, has suggested that it is likely that someone at the bike shop made a mistake. I'd trust a judge to make the same decision, given the evidence in front of him.

Unless, of course, there is any more information that hasn't been revealed ... stay honest, and trust the process. That's what it is there for.

[karla]

Actually, reading about this does make me a bit fearful. If the shop doesn't come to the party on this one I'd like to know who it was, because a mistake like this is pretty dangerous, and I don't want to take my bike there if something like this could happen.

If the workshop admitted a mistake, and then put into place a plan to prevent it happening again, ie) learned from the mistake, then I'd feel better.

It makes me even more aware that I know so very little - I would have no idea what to look for, and have to go on a bit of blind faith and help from others who do know. It's great that you found it before something serious happened, and thanks for posting about it here where others can learn from your experience.
:yeah:

[JWALKER]

thank you karla, i feel exactly the same. i will pm you the bike shop name.
once again they will NOT accept any responsbility, even after talking to the manager

[SVboy]

Boy, you are having a bad run mate. Hang in there, it will come right! I agree with some of the comments so far. If this bike shop changed your rear pads, it is more than likely they inspected your rear resovour[sp] and thats where the stuff-up occured. If you have an invoice for this, I suspect a small claims case would be open and shut, in your favour. Please PM the bike shop name, so I can avoid them with my work!!

[JWALKER]

lol, i know. seems to be off the road, more than on lol:beer:

was more gutted i missed taking the bike to the drags, oh well, there is always next month :)

[JMemonic]

Ok something seems a bit off here, as has been commented on before it seems odd that someone would go to the trouble of tampering with the bike like this, its a hell of lot of effort.

If you have documentation to show that the bike shop worked on the brakes and if that document includes a charge for brake fluid the you have prove that they have worked in the area in question and from what I am reading it was recently, if they had messed up it would take time for the oil to make its way through the system, the burden of prove is not on you to prove that they work in that area but that you have an enemy who would tamper with you vehicle in such a way.

[JWALKER]

i agree. as far as i know i don't have any enemies in christchurch who would do that to me. i have some quite big disagreements with a couple of people, but even i know, they would not do something like that.
there was roughly a week, from when i got my service done to when the back brake went, and only did two long trips, one to diamond harbour and a cruisey pace and one to akaroa, where it was failing on the way back

[wofman]

it is unlikeley it is oil in the brake lines not impossible . but if you have got the bike at another shop you need to get them to right a report stateing what they have found as this will come in handy if you take it to court.also get a test done on the fluid . an independent inspection,talk to the shop who did the brake job and take notes .keep a file of every thing you find out no matter how small the info is .the more info you have for your clame the better it is for you.as to oil in the lines it takes some time to do this on most bikes .differint types of brake fluid can cause similar problems , you need to be certin be for you start to action against any one for this problem.
hope it can get sorted quickley

[Grub]

also, i think they are going to make me pay, to fix up trhis incident, which im not very impressed about

Given the amount of work it takes to get the cover off, get brake fluid out of the resevoir and add the oil, this cannot be sabotage. It just can't. Therefore it was the shop. Of course they're going to say all of those things.

If they don't accept responsibility I would talk to whoever the crown agency is that monitors stuff like this - would it be the Labour Dept maybe? I'm also wondering about the agency that licences shops who do WoF (used to be called MotorSafe).

I'd firstly chat to the agencies anonymously to estalish what they can/can't do about it, find the one that has the power and then tell the shop that if they don't make it right, you will call in the regulatory agencies. As someone said this is negligence causing death type stuff ... it's serious. One of the other things to consider is that you (or the agency) may need to get to your bike real quick because the evidence needs protecting

[NinjaNanna]

differint types of brake fluid can cause similar problems

Now it looks like we could be getting to the truth of the matter. I would investigate this comment as best I could, if I were you.

Try emailing some of the Brake Fluid manufacturers to see if you can get comment on whether mixing 2 different types of Brake fluid can cause failure of the system.

If it is indeed possible then it could be a simple as the apprentice putting in DOT5 fluid instead of DOT4 - now that would certainly be excusable and vindicate both yourself and the bike shop.

[Mikkel]

Yeah, what NinjaNanna is saying is very reasonable indeed.

There are quite big differences between different DOT ratings on brake fluids. I'd go and have a chat with the manager again and tell him matter of factly (and calmly) that you believe they have made an honest mistake. If he's not willing to even consider the possibility ask him what he think has happened - how this thing could have come about. Unless he has something a bit more insightful than "they're out to get ya" I'd tell him that you'll take legal advice on the matter - and that no matter what happens, word gets around. Chch is not that big and there are plenty of other bikeshops.

Oh, and it's always worthwhile having a chat to other mechanics and ask for their professional opinion on the matter (of course leaving out the bikeshops name). And even better if you can get a written and signed statement from one.

[steveb64]

i agree. as far as i know i don't have any enemies in christchurch who would do that to me. i have some quite big disagreements with a couple of people, but even i know, they would not do something like that.
there was roughly a week, from when i got my service done to when the back brake went, and only did two long trips, one to diamond harbour and a cruisey pace and one to akaroa, where it was failing on the way back

Sounds like the bike shop fcuked up. If they topped up your reservoir after changing the pads, then the time scale you mention would be just about the right amount of time for the oil to work it's way out of the master cylinder, and into the rest of the system...

And I've had my brakes (in an old Fiat 125) stuffed up due to oil being put in the system - thanks to Continental Cars in Wellington! Long time (~20 years!) ago now - but I NEVER went back for any more service work. Damn apprentices.

Good luck with getting it sorted...

[JWALKER]

you cant but help stick your opionon in, can you D?.
the stone incident, i will ignore your comment.

me put oil in my brake lines?, to be honest i would not even know how too.
i said i didnt think that it was set up and the only person who i would have even considered to do that is YOU.

i will put the shops name up, once i get my bike back. how about you go along to sportzone yourself and see the oil they drained out of the bike?, cause its sitting there right now and im sure chris would be happy to show you it happened or you want to hide behind your computer and spat off your little opinons.

tell me what kind of person logs in under a friends login on another bike forum and then starts writting stuff up to insult other members?, i would see that as a coward, what you reckon D?

[JWALKER]

Sounds like the bike shop fcuked up. If they topped up your reservoir after changing the pads, then the time scale you mention would be just about the right amount of time for the oil to work it's way out of the master cylinder, and into the rest of the system...

And I've had my brakes (in an old Fiat 125) stuffed up due to oil being put in the system - thanks to Continental Cars in Wellington! Long time (~20 years!) ago now - but I NEVER went back for any more service work. Damn apprentices.

Good luck with getting it sorted...

i was thinking the same thing. but, will be hard to prove

[dangerous]

me put oil in my brake lines?, to be honest i would not even know how too.
i said i didnt think that it was set up and the only person who i would have even considered to do that is YOU.
hide behind your computer and spat off your little opinons.

tell me what kind of person logs in under a friends login on another bike forum and then starts writting stuff up to insult other members?, i would see that as a coward, what you reckon D?

Me... you think that I would do such a thing? you are a tinnie short of a 6 pack man, if i was of that sort of nature then I wouldnt have been the only person to help you out when you last fell off, I would have watched just like the others did.

Theres something very dodgy with this thread and the brake thing man, use ya old warlock skills to sort it out.

I dont hide 'behind' any computer I hide infront of it ya nit... I shoot from the hip you know that.

If refering to me and posting under a friends login... not me mate I dont have any friends :niceone:

Now sort the bike, dont fuk with the brakes, TIE and go ride

ps: to be able to replace the fluid with oil, it would take some time, the fluid would need bleeding out and the oil bleeding in anotherwords no fuker set you up man.

[JWALKER]

D - i agree, i don't think someone set me up, i believe a mistake was made when the brake fluid was put into my back brakes at the service, i don't think it was deliberate, just a mistake, but i am having a hard time convincing the bike shop of that

[JWALKER]

Me... you think that I would do such a thing? you are a tinnie short of a 6 pack man, if i was of that sort of nature then I wouldnt have been the only person to help you out when you last fell off, I would have watched just like the others did.



i know we argue on here, but, when i really thought about it, even i know you would not do that. i don't think i have enemies to do that.

yes, you did help me out with the bike when i came off and i really appreciate and once again say thank you for being there and helping.

[gav]

I think you may need to replace the seals in the caliper etc as the oil may have caused them to swell. A straight flush may not be enough.

[The Boss]

There has been some speculation of late that a job performed by Sportzone Suzuki on the rear brake system of J Walkers GSX-R600 has ended up with the brake lines being filled with engine oil rather than brake fluid by our workshop staff.

Both the front and rear brakes were serviced by Sportzone at exactly the same time by one of our very experienced mechanics (we don’t have any apprentices here) and J Walker has since done eight hundred and fifty kilometres.

J Walker has then bought the bike in to us to have his rear brake checked as he believed there was a problem with them. When we investigated, we found that someone had put engine oil into his rear brake system. We checked his front brakes, and discovered that the front system had no trace of engine oil and they work perfectly.

The idea that Sportzone has had anything to do with this problem is unacceptable, and it is important for the motorcycling public to understand that there is no way this kind of mistake could happen in our workshop. The process of obtaining engine oil from our 44 gallon drum into a large jug and pouring it into a very small rear brake master cylinder (which is tucked away inside the frames perimeter and located directly beneath a fairing) would be a very awkward act to perform, and the level of difficulty in performing this act would only be tolerated by someone who was intentionally wanting to put oil into the cylinder.

A new 500ml bottle of brake fluid is opened for each bike when all pads are to be changed. The price sticker of this bottle is removed placed on the job card, as it has been in this case, to ensure the customer is charged for this.

The technical experts from our oils supplier advise us that it is EXTREMELY unlikely that the brake seals would last 850 kms before swelling of the brakes seals and binding of the brakes would occur, and that the oil would likely have been fed into the lines well into the 850 kms.

If Sportzone had somehow managed to do something like this, I would have absolutely no issue with paying for the repairs and would accept full responsibility for the mistake. Let me state for the record however, that Sportzone has had no part in putting oil in any brake system ever, and the procedures in the workshop are there to make sure this will never happen.

It is always tempting to make assumptions on issues we hear about, and I think everyone does this from time to time, but the consequences of accusing an innocent party of something is extremely unfair. We accept that J Walker has not been a part of the rumours that are circulating. We would also like to make it clear that J Walker is a good customer and we feel for him in this situation, but we cannot accept responsibility for something that has definitely not occurred in our workshop. We would appreciate it if the speculation by people who have not had anything to do with this situation to stop please.

[dangerous]

I dont think anyone has thought your shop did this... I would think JWalker did it himself by mistake or some how a mate of his ballsed up.
Now Joe (I asume) was this oil just floating in the res or had it been pumped right through the system (this would take time) how do the two fluids mix?
If the oil was poured into the res I expect it would not make it to the brakes un less bleed through?

[karla]

There has been some speculation of late that a job performed by Sportzone Suzuki ...<snip>
....
A new 500ml bottle of brake fluid is opened for each bike when all pads are to be changed. The price sticker of this bottle is removed placed on the job card, as it has been in this case, to ensure the customer is charged for this.


Good to hear that your workshop has proceedures in place to alleviate human error, and to see that you have taken the time to present the other side of the story.

Is it possible that the bottle of oil that was used when the brakes were done could have been tampered with, or could have been filled with incorrect oil? Making this an outside mistake rather than an inside job.

If you only used one 500ml bottle to do both back and front brakes then both the front and back brakes would have been contaminated.

:Playnice: Leaving us with the unthinkable possibility of deliberate sabotage or as D says, a ballsup.:crazy:

[crashe]

A new 500ml bottle of brake fluid is opened for each bike when all pads are to be changed. The price sticker of this bottle is removed placed on the job card, as it has been in this case, to ensure the customer is charged for this.


A quick few questions:

Does every motorbike take 500ml of brake fluid?

If not, then what happens to the rest of the brake fluid from that bottle?

Is it then poured into one bottle to make up a new bottle?

Since the owner of the bike has been charged for 500mls of brake fluid.....and if its not all used, does the left over (new) brake fluid in the bottle, then get handed to the owner of the bike when he/she arrives to pick up their bike?

[dangerous]

Leaving us with the unthinkable possibility of deliberate sabotage or as D says, a ballsup.:crazy:

sabotage... I dont think so this isnt shortland st.

[The Pastor]

A quick few questions:

Does every motorbike take 500ml of brake fluid?

If not, then what happens to the rest of the brake fluid from that bottle?

Is it then poured into one bottle to make up a new bottle?

Since the owner of the bike has been charged for 500mls of brake fluid.....and if its not all used, does the left over (new) brake fluid in the bottle, then get handed to the owner of the bike when he/she arrives to pick up their bike?
I was thinking the same thing crashe,

How dose the $400 fix it charge brake down? Seals cost about $60 and an overhaul of the system is like 1hr job.................

[JWALKER]

J Walker has since done eight hundred and fifty kilometres.


i do not agree with this, but , i will be in contact with the advice i have been given to proceed with in this situation

[JWALKER]

I dont think anyone has thought your shop did this... I would think JWalker did it himself by mistake or some how a mate of his ballsed up.


i find this very hard to believe since nobody,apart from me has ridden the bike, let alone worked on it.
i do not know how to do anything with the brakes and if their is any work that needs done on the bike, it has always been taken to a qualified mechanic to work on.
there are only three people who have ever worked on my bike since i have had it and all of them are qualified mechanics at bike shops in christchurch

[gav]

So Sportzone, how can you can sure it is engine oil? My thought was that it could possibly have been fork oil. What brand of brake fluid do you use? Why would the customer need to adjust/alter the fluid if the rear brakes had been serviced less than 850km ago?

[T.W.R]

A quick few questions:

Does every motorbike take 500ml of brake fluid?

If not, then what happens to the rest of the brake fluid from that bottle?

Is it then poured into one bottle to make up a new bottle?

Since the owner of the bike has been charged for 500mls of brake fluid.....and if its not all used, does the left over (new) brake fluid in the bottle, then get handed to the owner of the bike when he/she arrives to pick up their bike?

The bottle remnants should be turfed, any workshop worth it's good is going to ditch partially used bottles of brake fluid.

Brake fluid is hydroabsorbic (sp?) it absorbs moisture :msn-wink:
So if a bottle is opened and left for any period of time it become contaminated and worthless.

[crashe]

The bottle remnants should be turfed, any workshop worth it's good is going to ditch partially used bottles of brake fluid.

Brake fluid is hydroabsorbic (sp?) it absorbs moisture :msn-wink:
So if a bottle is opened and left for any period of time it become contaminated and worthless.

But my question still remains unanswered.

Does every motorbike take 500mls of brake fluid?


What if say for example: 2 bikes come in on the same morning to get the brakes sorted and only need 240ml and 230ml each.....

Are they both then charged each for a 500ml bottle each.. or does the bike shop split it up the middle, knowing that two bikes were coming in on the same day to get their brake fluid changed?

I also thought that one could buy a bigger bottle than a 500ml bottle, like a 1 litre bottle etc etc.

I was unaware that brake fluid goes 'off' as I have some stuff in my garage from my old cars and recent car that needed it topped up..... That bottle sits in a cupboard in my garage awaiting to be used on my car should it be needed....... so you are saying that I should be chucking it out...... I have only used small amounts when checking levels and adding in to get it back up to the correct level.....

[Mikkel]

As long as the container is airtight I can't see there being any problems with storing it.

That being said - if I made a business of servicing performance vehicles I'd take precautions that contaminated brakefluids were never to be used.

[T.W.R]

But my question still remains unanswered.

Does every motorbike take 500mls of brake fluid?


What if say for example: 2 bikes come in on the same morning to get the brakes sorted and only need 240ml and 230ml each.....

Are they both then charged each for a 500ml bottle each.. or does the bike shop split it up the middle, knowing that two bikes were coming in on the same day to get their brake fluid changed?

I also thought that one could buy a bigger bottle than a 500ml bottle, like a 1 litre bottle etc etc.

I was unaware that brake fluid goes 'off' as I have some stuff in my garage from my old cars and recent car that needed it topped up..... That bottle sits in a cupboard in my garage awaiting to be used on my car should it be needed....... so you are saying that I should be chucking it out...... I have only used small amounts when checking levels and adding in to get it back up to the correct level.....

If you're bleeding a bikes brake system through (both front & rear brakes) properly (flushing the system & setting the levels at the right amount) you're going to use the majority of a 500ml container easy.

Most motorcycle specific brake fluids only come in 500ml bottles.


As long as the container is airtight I can't see there being any problems with storing it.

That being said - if I made a business of servicing performance vehicles I'd take precautions that contaminated brakefluids were never to be used.

Wonder why they come in a sealed container to start with ?:whistle: once that seal is broken the container & contents are exposed to ambient humidity and will start absorbing moisture :yes:

A plastic bottle or container is never completely airtight :no:

[NOMIS]

A quick few questions:

Does every motorbike take 500ml of brake fluid?

If not, then what happens to the rest of the brake fluid from that bottle?

Is it then poured into one bottle to make up a new bottle?

Since the owner of the bike has been charged for 500mls of brake fluid.....and if its not all used, does the left over (new) brake fluid in the bottle, then get handed to the owner of the bike when he/she arrives to pick up their bike?

I was a mechanic at a VERY WELL NOWEN car dealership in Aucks and no i saved it up into other bottles when i had a full one i would take it home and sell it :-) ours came in 500ml sometimes if it was a full fluid change i could scam a entire bottle, same thing with engine coolant, oil. especially mobil 1 that stuffs expensive,

Dont go doing that kind of thing any more tho not worth it.

[NOMIS]

But my question still remains unanswered.

Does every motorbike take 500mls of brake fluid?


What if say for example: 2 bikes come in on the same morning to get the brakes sorted and only need 240ml and 230ml each.....

Are they both then charged each for a 500ml bottle each.. or does the bike shop split it up the middle, knowing that two bikes were coming in on the same day to get their brake fluid changed?

I also thought that one could buy a bigger bottle than a 500ml bottle, like a 1 litre bottle etc etc.

I was unaware that brake fluid goes 'off' as I have some stuff in my garage from my old cars and recent car that needed it topped up..... That bottle sits in a cupboard in my garage awaiting to be used on my car should it be needed....... so you are saying that I should be chucking it out...... I have only used small amounts when checking levels and adding in to get it back up to the correct level.....

Again when some one just needed a top up id normally have some lying around and top up it up say 200ml or what ever then i would go and get a brand new bottle that would get charged to the customer, and sit nicly in the bottem of my tool box. ( was a naughty aprentice ) :whocares: Please dont worry I no longer am a mechanic.. and my dodgy ways ended long time ago

[Mikkel]

Wonder why they come in a sealed container to start with ?:whistle: once that seal is broken the container & contents are exposed to ambient humidity and will start absorbing moisture :yes:

Wonder why your milk, coke, pasta, duct tape, etc comes in a sealed container? It's your guarantee it's a new product that hasn't been meddled with...

True, opening the bottle will expose the contents to the atmosphere. However, if you reseal the bottle the volume of air that can interact with the remaining contents is quite small. It's not like workshops use a vacuum chamber when they open and close your brake fluid reservoir - and I doubt it's then possible not to have some air remaining above the brake fluid.


A plastic bottle or container is never completely airtight :no:

Indeed, almost nothing is completely airtight seeing as how diffusion at room temperature is a bitch.

However, if both of your statements I quoted were perfectly true I doubt the companies would use plastic bottles for brake fluid unless they had a shelf life of about a week. Anyone know what the shelf life of a bottle of brake fluid is?

However, for all intents and purposes you can consider a plastic bottle airtight for a duration of at least a year. (Depends on the plastic of course and whether you use the vessel to contain a substance that reacts with plastic).

Another thought: Your brake fluid reservoir is made from... ?

[T.W.R]

Wonder why your milk, coke, pasta, duct tape, etc comes in a sealed container? It's your guarantee it's a new product that hasn't been meddled with...

True, opening the bottle will expose the contents to the atmosphere. However, if you reseal the bottle the volume of air that can interact with the remaining contents is quite small. It's not like workshops use a vacuum chamber when they open and close your brake fluid reservoir - and I doubt it's then possible not to have some air remaining above the brake fluid.



Indeed, almost nothing is completely airtight seeing as how diffusion at room temperature is a bitch.

However, if both of your statements I quoted were perfectly true I doubt the companies would use plastic bottles for brake fluid unless they had a shelf life of about a week. Anyone know what the shelf life of a bottle of brake fluid is?

However, for all intents and purposes you can consider a plastic bottle airtight for a duration of at least a year. (Depends on the plastic of course and whether you use the vessel to contain a substance that reacts with plastic).

Another thought: Your brake fluid reservoir is made from... ?

Muppet!

There's plastics & then there are plastics. The polymer structure of a brake reservoir is completely different to that of a normal plastic bottle, same with comparing a milk bottle to a brake fluid bottle.

I could give you a lesson in plastics fabrication if you want but I'm sure you wouldn't understand.
I worked as a extrusion operator for a couple of years and only learnt part of the whole chemical mixtures of normal plastics mixing procedures, to complete an extrusion operators ticket is a 5yr course :niceone:

[Mikkel]

Muppet!

There's plastics & then there are plastics. The polymer structure of a brake reservoir is completely different to that of a normal plastic bottle, same with comparing a milk bottle to a brake fluid bottle.

I could give you a lesson in plastics fabrication if you want but I'm sure you wouldn't understand.
I worked as a extrusion operator for a couple of years and only learnt part of the whole chemical mixtures of normal plastics mixing procedures, to complete an extrusion operators ticket is a 5yr course :niceone:

Oh, someone didn't read my post I think...

I'm sure that your certainty in my inability to understand is very malplaced.

And I doubt you could teach me much about the theory behind material properties of polymers.

On the other hand I'm sure you have more practical experience in mixing nasty nasty compounds and making polymers than I do. But by god I hope you made sure to wear a mask.

I guess we're on the same level really - seeing as a Master of Science degree in Engineering Physics also takes 5 years to complete. Aw, bugger I spent 5.5 year finishing mine guess I'm actually a bit behind then. Sorry!

Cheers
Kermit the Green Frog

[T.W.R]

Oh, someone didn't read my post I think...

I'm sure that your certainty in my inability to understand is very malplaced.

And I doubt you could teach me much about the theory behind material properties of polymers.

On the other hand I'm sure you have more practical experience in mixing nasty nasty compounds and making polymers than I do. But by god I hope you made sure to wear a mask.

I guess we're on the same level really - seeing as a Master of Science degree in Engineering Physics also takes 5 years to complete. Aw, bugger I spent 5.5 year finishing mine guess I'm actually a bit behind then. Sorry!

Cheers
Kermit the Green Frog

Well if you've got all that behind you why question the fact about storing partially used barkae fluid in containers that have been opened then :lol:

Well I worked for the company that makes over 80% of all the soft plastic packaging for Australasia and was running upto 5 extruders including 3 multi chamber co axle extruders a night producing tens of thousands of Kms of plastic each night, making HD, LD, & LSD plastics.
just an example is that a bread bag has three different layers of plastic, and a frozen food bag has four layers; each one of those has 12-16 different components in it.

:niceone:

[Mikkel]

Well if you've got all that behind you why question the fact about storing partially used barkae fluid in containers that have been opened then :lol:

Damn, read my posts again. I said I thought it was a good practice for a workshop to only use sealed containers with brake fluid.

I just said that I didn't see any issues with storing UNUSED brake fluid in a closed (not sealed), partially filled container in your garage for future use - as long as you keep in mind what you have been doing with it so far and keep the lid screwed on tightly.


Well I worked for the company that makes over 80% of all the soft plastic packaging for Australasia and was running upto 5 extruders including 3 multi chamber co axle extruders a night producing tens of thousands of Kms of plastic each night, making HD, LD, & LSD plastics.
just an example is that a bread bag has three different layers of plastic, and a frozen food bag has four layers; each one of those has 12-16 different components in it.

As I said, I didn't doubt your practical experience outweighed mine. I've mostly worked in lab environments with dissolving various polymer compounds in numerous nasty nasty solvents (some carcinogenic but most just "I'll fuck your brain!" nasty) and then spinning them onto silicon and glass wafers in thin layers (10-2000 nano meters) and processing such layers.

Polymers are very interesting materials and the amount of different applications is staggering.

[crashe]

Ummmmmmmm ok cheers......

I appreciate each and everyone of you for taking the time to answer my question..... I shall now ponder on all your answers.



Nice to see, it did turn into a peaceful debate thou.


SEAMINFuk - I kinda figured that might be the way things do happen in some garages/workshops...... thanks for your honest answer......