20 / 20 this Sunday

[spudchucka]

Just saw an add for 20 / 20. This Sunday they have a story on the asian driver that killed a biker and got off.

[James Deuce]

Probably a good idea NOT to watch if you don't want to suffer extreme indignation. Motorcyclists seldom, if ever, get a fair go from the media.

Thanks for the heads up. Might have a BBQ instead of watching. Beer anyone? :)

[Zapf]

shit... wonder what the excuse is.... ermm

[avgas]

i was so thankfull that the guy that hit me was "ok", but the cop that was incharge of my case was an ex-biker. Haven't been in the bus lanes since then though :crybaby:

[stevedee]

Open mind see what is being said eh?

[StoneChucker]

What time is top gear on? :first:

*Edit*... rhetorical

[James Deuce]

Open mind see what is being said eh?


Little point having an open mind with television "journalism" in the state it is in.

It will be an excuse-fest and a diatribe on how badly we treat immigrants.

[James Deuce]

What time is top gear on? :first:

*Edit*... rhetorical


Excellent point :)

[Ms Piggy]

Just saw an add for 20 / 20. This Sunday they have a story on the asian driver that killed a biker and got off.
You bet me to it Spud, 7.30 chanel 3. I'm gonna miss it but, it looks (from the promo) like it's pretty much on the riders side. I think I'd get too upset if I watched it though. Anyone know if there is a telly on the Ferry?

[ajturbo]

You bet me to it Spud, 7.30 chanel 3. I'm gonna miss it but, it looks (from the promo) like it's pretty much on the riders side. I think I'd get too upset if I watched it though. Anyone know if there is a telly on the Ferry?
hell you haven't travelled much from your shelted live in the wet smoke :)
the ferries have them every 2m !!! especialy the fast(?) one

[jrandom]

I won't be watching it, but for slightly more selfish reasons...

You see, this coming week I'll have to negotiate the minefield of "But why don't you just buy a nice little car, then?" before I can safely ensconce a Zeal on my back porch.

An emotive television programme with *either* of the possible theses, namely that (a) motorcyclists are all suicidial idiots or (b) motorcyclists are being slaughtered by means beyond their control would do my cause no good whatsoever with the lovely Mrs Random.

But I'm sure I'll get a quick summary here from someone who does watch it.

[Sniper]

hell you haven't travelled much from your shelted live in the wet smoke :)
the ferries have them every 2m !!! especialy the fast(?) one

The fast one isnt sailing till December (Lynx) but yep Celtic, you can watch it on TV on the ferry. :niceone:

[Ghost Lemur]

Sounds like classic sensationalist pseudo-journalism to me (no matter which way they decide to tell the story).

Glad I don't have a tv.

[StoneChucker]

Broken Bike, NO TV??? What the HELL do you do man, thats pretty much all there is to life, isn't there?

[crashe]

The guy who killed the young man on his bike..... got 250 hours community service and a $10,000 fine.

The guy did a U-Turn without indicating, and had been banned from driving as he was picked up the month before... still running around using his chinese license.... and he had been living in NZ for a couple of years and yet didnt understand the word "FORBIDDEN" to drive in NZ.

Think it time overseas folks stopped playing ignorance....and pretending that they dont understand the english language.

The young guy on the bike (sorry cant remember his name) crashed straight into the side of the car and was killed instantly, his pillion survived the crash.

[Frankie]

Im working on cutting out the ads and compressing it down from 1Gb :p

If I find a plase to host it Ill post it tonight or tomorrow :sweatdrop

[Frankie]

sorry the recording is corrupt for some reason :bye:

I can watch it with like VLC or BSPlay but cant edit it or anything

[jase]

Makes me sick and angry.!!!

[StoneChucker]

I've recorded it, will watch shortly. I managed to see a little of it while channel hopping during adverts on TOP GEAR ;)

I almost made a comment here, but, I'll reserve it for after having watched the program...

[R6_kid]

this will help with my case against the idiot who did a similar maneuver(sp) in front of me and a mate causing me to ditch and damage my mates bike and then the van the idiot was driving... he did indicate at the very last minute, but he did it on an intersection.

[onearmedbandit]

Saw it, no blame on the rider, all attributed to the banned driver. Even the police said his speed had no bearing, impact speed of 64km/h.

[Frankie]

:kick:

Fucking hell... "I dont understand english" and hes been in NZ for three fucking years...

When I can to New Zealand in October 1995 I could barelly speak english like knew the alphabet and that was fucking it... Mid 1996 I start Primary school without a problem... ffs if I could learn to speak english very well in about 6-8 months I sure he could fucking do it in 3 god damned fucking years!

In regard to the laws of the road I really do think that the punishment is no where near hard enough...

Words just cant describe what Im feeling

[R6_kid]

i agree, this whole i dont speak english bullshit is getting to me. it is so evident at school now its not funny. asians especially use it as a way to try and get out of trouble. BUT you have to pass a basic english test to get into the country so "go fuck your hand" if you cant. Thankfully our teachers no longer take it as a wat out of trouble, if they dont understand they get an interpreter which puts them on the spot :bash:

[onearmedbandit]

The a$$hole is just playing the 'don't speak the english' card. I say this because surely the officer who forbid him to drive the month earlier explained it to him. IE, "You are forbidden to drive any car on NZ roads until you obtain a NZ drivers licence. This means you can not drive any longer. Do you understand? No more driving until you get a NZ licence."

So that excuse doesn't wash at all, but the judge believed him.

[R6_kid]

surely the guy wasnt that much of a dimwit. I've always been taught - if you dont understand a word, ask someone. If they dont know, ask someone else, if they dont know - look it up in the dictionary :argh:

[thehollowmen]

i agree, this whole i dont speak english bullshit is getting to me. it is so evident at school now its not funny. asians especially use it as a way to try and get out of trouble. BUT you have to pass a basic english test to get into the country so "go fuck your hand" if you cant. Thankfully our teachers no longer take it as a wat out of trouble, if they dont understand they get an interpreter which puts them on the spot :bash:


Ok
I'm gonna bite

Have you SEEN the IELTS exam? I have, my wife 8.5 out of 9, I know people who with a little basic english have scored a 6 or more.

Its very simple, "reading, writing, speaking and listening" and I am told that my wife's exam the "speaking" portion was directing somebody using a map. "left right left left" would have sufficed.

And you don't need the IELTS exam if you've had formal english training, visiting, or for some institutions. I don't even think you need it to get citizenship.

The only thing you might need it for is some universities, or for residancy under general skills catagory.

I don't think what happened here was right, but we need to get our english-speaking mess in order before we ask them to.

Can I get an interpreter for 'wat' ? Cause I really don't follow *THAT* sentance.

[Ms Piggy]

hell you haven't travelled much from your shelted live in the wet smoke :)
the ferries have them every 2m !!! especialy the fast(?) one
I was on the slow ones and you gotta be in quick to get a seat near a telly. I missed it. I wasn't sure if their tellys just played Sky or what.

[Stinger]

surely the guy wasnt that much of a dimwit. I've always been taught - if you dont understand a word, ask someone. If they dont know, ask someone else, if they dont know - look it up in the dictionary :argh:

Interesting story, when I was getting my learners licence the proceedure was that you had to take a scratchy test, then read from an eye check chart and then do your oral questions.

Now I was behind this asian lady doing her eye test. She had a translator with her, the testing guy says:

"Ask her to read the second to bottom line"
"She wants to read the top line"
"Tell her she has to read the second from bottom line"

After this went on for a while the guy got sick of this and I presume passed her, I'm not sure which line she ended up reading. But, the lady did not read any of the letters out - they all came out of the translators mouth. I think that's pretty dodgy personally, fair enough that she needed the translator for the instructions, but the letters ?!?! for an NZ drivers licence.

[MikeL]

Have you SEEN the IELTS exam?

Yes. I teach to it.

There are 4 separate modules (Listening/Reading/Writing/Speaking) and each is scored from 1 to 9. Then an overall score is calculated for the whole IELTS test. The official descriptors for each band are as follows:
9 Expert user
8 Very good user
7 Good user
6 Moderately competent user
5 Modest user
4 Limited user
3 Extremely limited user
2 Intermittent user
1 Non user.
For Listening and Reading it is possible to score half way between 2 bands (e.g. 5.5), but not for Speaking and Writing.
My course prepares students for university entrance, where the normal requirement is for an overall score of 6.0, with no band less than 5.5.
Chinese students generally start the course with an average level of 4.5 - 5.0, but there is a wide variation in the individual module performance. Because of their education system and teaching methods, their listening skills are usually way ahead of their other abilities. Speaking and writing are usually very poor. It takes a whole school year to raise most students' performance from about 5.0 overall to 6.0. Almost all of them get at least 6.0 in Listening, but most struggle to get even 5.5 in Reading. 6.0 in Writing is beyond the capabilities of many of them. In theory with 6.0 they are considered capable of taking first-year university papers, although some faculties insist on a higher standard.
There is no prescribed word list for IELTS. However in the Reading test they are expected to cope with scientific and technical vocabulary, and in one of the Listening test sections at least they are likely to encounter some advanced vocabulary. Because of the wide range of subject material vocabulary knowledge becomes something of a lottery.
Because these students generally live in a totally Chinese-speaking environment, using English only when absolutely necessary, and on the whole don't watch NZ television, listen to radio etc., it is I suppose possible that some may have missed out on learning a word such as "forbidden".
However, from my experience I would say that a student who has passed IELTS at 6.0 or higher and has been attending a NZ university for a year or more would almost certainly have come across the word in their academic reading at least.
But all this is beside the point. In the first place I can't imagine the police officer writing out the ticket and not ensuring, by questioning and explanation, that an obvious foreigner knew what it meant. And I can't imagine the driver, faced with a clearly very serious matter, not bothering to find out the meaning of the key word if he didn't already know it. Finally I can't imagine why the judge had sympathy for the driver's situation to the extent that he allowed it to override the general principle that ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Many of the Asian students that I teach live in a state of almost permanent bewilderment. They are too young, too immature, too limited in their experience to be able to cope with a new country and new freedoms, different language, culture, customs etc. I feel sorry for them and do my best to help them whenever I can. But others are able to exploit their new situation aggressively, arrogantly and selfishly. When they get over their amazement at how easy many things are compared to back home, they laugh at us.
Since we have only seen this young man through the eyes of the media, we can only speculate as to which category he belongs in...

[thehollowmen]

MikeL : many thanks for that :-)

That question was more to gareth_d.

I do agree that many of the international students go a little nutty first time away from home with no supervision. A lot of local students do too when they move to university.

Should we have a mentoring program set in place for all home-leavers and international students to make sure they stay on the straight and narrow?

[SuperDave]

The excuse of not understanding 'forbidden' is utter bullshit. This guy is studying tourism if I remember what the show said correctly, and he has been here for a couple of years, so what? is his course taught in Chinese or something, how can he not understand english?

I reckon fuck the judge here as well, what the hell? That is the kind of man upholding and ultimately enforcing the laws of our country? If that's what our judges are like and are so easily swayed and sympathetic towards those breaking the laws, then the police in this country might as well just give up, or take the sentencing into their own hands.

[spudchucka]

Obviously I can't comment on what happened when this guy was forbidden because I wasn't there. However whenever a person is forbidden to drive police explain in great detail what it means and what the consequences of driving while forbidden are. The police officer will ask the person to acknowledge that they have understood and he / she will write on the ticket that the "consequences of driving whilst forbidden have been explained and understood".

Personally I think that most foreign drivers, (in particular those from Asian countries) should not be permitted to drive here on there home licence. They should have to surrender it to the LTSA who will issue them with a New Zealand photo learners class licence. They should then have to graduate through the system so that their driving ability can be assessed. Having a NZ photo licence will also clear up issues of identity that arise with the Chinese licences. When they leave the country or when they attain a full NZ licence the LTSA would then release their licence from their home country back to them.

By the way I missed the 20 / 20 show as I was dealing with a car that went of a bridge and was upside down in a creek bed. The driver had buggerd off and it took about 2.5 hours to track him down.

[spudchucka]

The excuse of not understanding 'forbidden' is utter bullshit. This guy is studying tourism if I remember what the show said correctly, and he has been here for a couple of years, so what? is his course taught in Chinese or something, how can he not understand english?

I reckon fuck the judge here as well, what the hell? That is the kind of man upholding and ultimately enforcing the laws of our country? If that's what our judges are like and are so easily swayed and sympathetic towards those breaking the laws, then the police in this country might as well just give up, or take the sentencing into their own hands.
Judges have pretty much all been defence lawyers in the past. It should come as no surprise that most of them are soft ons.

[MOTOXXX]

Personally I think that most foreign drivers, (in particular those from Asian countries) should not be permitted to drive here on there home licence. They should have to surrender it to the LTSA who will issue them with a New Zealand photo learners class licence. They should then have to graduate through the system so that their driving ability can be assessed. Having a NZ photo licence will also clear up issues of identity that arise with the Chinese licences. When they leave the country or when they attain a full NZ licence the LTSA would then release their licence from their home country back to them.


i think thats a good idea too.
when i bought my car from auckland i got it from a student from china. he was telling me that in china he had sat his learners licence (the written part) had never realy driven a car until he came to nz. His licence was valid for 1 year in nz before having to change it. so he slaps 9k on the desk of a dealer and leaves in a MANUAL SEMI SPORTS CAR not to mention that hes learning to drive in AUCKLAND.

i mean we all remember how hard it is can be to learn to drive but learning to drive in auckland with no instruction is insane

oh and he never insured the car either :mad: :mad:

[MikeL]

Should we have a mentoring program set in place for all home-leavers and international students to make sure they stay on the straight and narrow?

Interesting question. I'm sure that all universities and most schools have more than adequate support and counselling resources in place.

As I see it, there are a couple of separate issues:

In the first place, most Asian students, compared to their kiwi counterparts, have a very limited range of experiences, and almost no experience in living independently or making their own decisions. Their education system relies to a large extent on rote learning and puts very little emphasis on intellectual curiosity, problem-solving or forming an opinion. Many take a long time to adapt to our system of radically different values.

Secondly, on the whole they do not and will not integrate into the "mainstream" of society in this country. They remain within the comfort zone of their own language and culture. Most, when they arrive, go into homestays (it is a requirement in many schools, particularly if they are under 18). Few are still in homestays 6 months later. Most commonly, they flat with other Asians, speak their own language, eat their own food... The hostility that they often perceive to their presence here reinforces their separation. There is such a large number of them in Auckland, for instance, that almost all their social, medical, commercial and other needs can be supplied within their own ethnic community.

Thirdly, they all too often lack the emotional maturity to cope with the new freedoms that they find in NZ. Family, school, social and moral attitudes back in China are much more restrictive. Here they have much easier access to cars, gambling, booze, sex, everything... We can hardly blame them for going off the rails.

Exactly how much more "we" (schools/universities/immigration/the general public??) can do to address these issues is a perplexing question.

NZ's international education industry has suffered from too rapid growth and insufficient planning. Fortunately or unfortunately, in a free market these things have a tendency to be self-correcting. Those who complain about the Asians this year will be wondering in a year's time where they've all gone.

[MikeL]

Personally I think that most foreign drivers, (in particular those from Asian countries) should not be permitted to drive here on there home licence. They should have to surrender it to the LTSA who will issue them with a New Zealand photo learners class licence. They should then have to graduate through the system so that their driving ability can be assessed. Having a NZ photo licence will also clear up issues of identity that arise with the Chinese licences. When they leave the country or when they attain a full NZ licence the LTSA would then release their licence from their home country back to them.


This is a very practical, commonsense solution.
Which is why it will probably never happen.

The usual excuse for not tightening up on foreign licences is the repercussions on kiwis driving overseas.
Considering the number of kiwis who want to live, work and drive in China I wouldn't think it would be a problem. Presumably people visiting on tourist visas could still use their national licence for the 3 months or whatever.

[James Deuce]

Open mind see what is being said eh?
I'll have to take it back, except for the indignant bit - I'm still indignant that this guy didn't get taken straight to the airport and put on a plane home. This may well illustrate to issues involved in a politicised judicial system.

[Stinger]

This is a very practical, commonsense solution.
Which is why it will probably never happen.

The usual excuse for not tightening up on foreign licences is the repercussions on kiwis driving overseas.
Considering the number of kiwis who want to live, work and drive in China I wouldn't think it would be a problem. Presumably people visiting on tourist visas could still use their national licence for the 3 months or whatever.

I don't think we should be able to drive in China without some sort of test/course and I think the same should apply here.

[thehollowmen]

Interesting question. I'm sure that all universities and most schools have more than adequate support and counselling resources in place.
(snip)
NZ's international education industry has suffered from too rapid growth and insufficient planning. Fortunately or unfortunately, in a free market these things have a tendency to be self-correcting. Those who complain about the Asians this year will be wondering in a year's time where they've all gone.

True
I don't think its all about asian students, they get a bad rep in the media.
I'm a little biased because I've got a few asian friends and two asian sisters, and they keep getting told by random people in the street to "go home to your own country"

I see a lot of problems with students in general, we've all gone a little crazy when we've left home.

I've got an interesting story about the american international students in dunedin from saterday too :-P I had to dodge a muffler that fell off an old ford in town on the way home from work. I picked it up and gave it to them at the next lights and noticed the car didn't have a WOF. When I asked they didn't even know what WOFs were for...

I do agree there are problems, and tighter control is needed. But it needs also to apply to us in the same way it applies to the international students.

As you say, the universities do have a few support systems in place. My wife got an email from the uni about 7 months ago about "be careful driving in the snow, it is dangerous and probably a new experiance for you." Which is a bit odd, considering to get a full license back home costs close to ten grand and involves a snow and ice driving course too.

Are the current programs not working?

maybe you're right, maybe we should just sit back and wait and see what happens in five or ten years.

Also with the huge growth there are many useless degrees .. we've become a degree factory. I think that is also going to contribute to a glut in the international education market... The situtation is not ideal. Really, I don't know how to fix it.

Anyway... Pity all the people who really know how to run the country are cutting hair and driving taxis :shutup:

[thehollowmen]

This is a very practical, commonsense solution.
Which is why it will probably never happen.

The usual excuse for not tightening up on foreign licences is the repercussions on kiwis driving overseas.
Considering the number of kiwis who want to live, work and drive in China I wouldn't think it would be a problem. Presumably people visiting on tourist visas could still use their national licence for the 3 months or whatever.

Ya know, that's a big excuse in a LOT of countries.
When I went over to Norway, I was talking to a lady on the airplane. They've tightened their system to have very rigorous testing for car drivers, costs a fortune to get your license, and driving is pretty bad too with 12 kronor per liter ($4?)

Anyway, this lady travelled internationally due to work about once every 4 months, well within the grace period for an international license. So she got hers in the US and just exits and enters the country repeatedly. Its a common thing.

A lot of internationals would qualify on this, since the IDP last for 12 months... and they can travel out and in and get it renewed. maybe we'll get those "airtrips to nowhere" for IDPs just like the ones that were used to renew work permits many years ago...

[MikeL]

the IDP last for 12 months...

Does anyone bother with the IDP any more? I last used one in 1998. Since then, when booking rental cars in the States and Europe, I've been told that my NZ licence is all I need.

[James Deuce]

Does anyone bother with the IDP any more? I last used one in 1998. Since then, when booking rental cars in the States and Europe, I've been told that my NZ licence is all I need.
When we went to the UK in '98 we only needed our NZ license.

[Devil]

Many of the Asian students that I teach live in a state of almost permanent bewilderment.
Too true!
Our building (AKL CBD) has a couple of asian language schools as tenants (one of the major reasons we're leaving, never again in the same building as these people gah).
Mike, could you please do me a favour... is there any way in your testing you could include questions about how to use lifts? Not rocket science or anything, like, when you want to go down, press the down button, not both of them.

Ive completely forgotten what I was going to say so Ill just stop here.

[crashe]

Two months ago I was in the AA with a young friend who was obtaining his car drivers license.... (yep he passed 100% and has since gone on and passed his Bike license 100% as well)
Now there was a older lady and a young girl sitting behind her reading out the scratchy questions to the older lady. The AA woman had to go and speak to them 2 times as she felt that she lady at the back was telling her the answers.

How can they tell - apparently its quite easy to tell that they are cheating.
The young woman at the back was reading out in english and then in her language and the then the older woman would look up for a spilt second and scratch her answer... which meant that the older woman wasnt even looking at the scratchy but was just given the answers......
They denied it but the AA woman stood over them for a minute or two... eventually moving away.....
Well guess what the older woman got 8 answers wrong.... YAY.... it dont pay to cheat.... Her husband came over and tried to say that she mistook what was being said to her.... the AA folks told her she has to repay and come back again.... Husband not a happy chappy.

So maybe its time that AA employed their own interperters (sp).
To stop all the cheating.....

Why wasnt the guy sent back home to his country to face his parents....
and have the shame on his family.... Oh yeah he paid $10,000. Well that dont cut it... He killed a man so he should be deported back to his country of origin. But in the meantime he gets to stay in NZ probably still driving a car cos he dont understand english and he gets to finish his tourism course....in english.
And I bet he is back behind the wheel of a car and not abiding with the laws of NZ.

Send him home permantly to face the shame, I am tired of them being allowed to think that money will buy off the crime.... $40,000 for a young girl killed at a petrol station down the line and now $10,000 for this young man....

[crashe]

I also meet an English couple who are living here in NZ. They have lived here for years (about 12 years I think) and they ride and drive here in NZ on a UK license. I asked why they didnt have a NZ license as they must have one after 1 year of being in NZ.

Their answer was well "We go back to the UK every year just before the year is up....for a short holiday so therefore we dont need a NZ license...."
Well they were going to go and sit a NZ license after I had explained a few things to them.....
Well they are living in NZ afterall, that it dont matter that they leave every year....

This couple saw a loophole in the system... and they were using it to the max.
So I wonder how many others have found this loophole....

[Blakamin]

Send him home permantly to face the shame, I am tired of them being allowed to think that money will buy off the crime.... $40,000 for a young girl killed at a petrol station down the line and now $10,000 for this young man....
yeah, we should cut the bullshit.... I'll give you $5000 to stand on the road so I can maim you...save all the tax-payer court shit.... just run someone over and write them a cheque on the spot :argh: wouldnt even need cops at the scene! (unless the killer was broke or a kiwi, then they'd get jail)

lives aint $$$$ and when the "justice" system realises this, we'll all be alot safer!

[Ghost Lemur]

Broken Bike, NO TV??? What the HELL do you do man, thats pretty much all there is to life, isn't there?

Wh0re the forums. Watch add free movies and episodes. Read. Make love to the better half. Spend quality time with punks, while their still young enough to think I'm cool.

Wish I had a bike though... :crybaby

Hopefully the forks are being straightened. There away at the moment, haven't heard a yay or nay on them yet.

[Lou Girardin]

Personally I think that most foreign drivers, (in particular those from Asian countries) should not be permitted to drive here on there home licence. They should have to surrender it to the LTSA who will issue them with a New Zealand photo learners class licence. They should then have to graduate through the system so that their driving ability can be assessed. Having a NZ photo licence will also clear up issues of identity that arise with the Chinese licences. When they leave the country or when they attain a full NZ licence the LTSA would then release their licence from their home country back to them.
.

This sounds fine in theory, but withdrawing from the convention on international drivers licences will mean that, in turn, we will no longer be allowed to drive on our licences when overseas.
I don't think that this will prove popular.
And lets not even start on the racist implications.
Maybe, if the LTSA had people with some practical experience, they wouldn't introduce cretinous policies like the one allowing taxi applicants to use interpreters. Or even trying to make vehicle inspections, WOF etc. optional before a driving test.
It's a lot easier spending our money on brain dead adverts or contracting the Police to carry out set hours of traffic enforcement, regardless of results.

[Lou Girardin]

Judges have pretty much all been defence lawyers in the past. It should come as no surprise that most of them are soft ons.

Yeah! Damn right. Lets use Saddams judicial recruiter or Pol Pots or Mugabes. They didn't take any shit, no soft concepts of legal jurisprudence with those guys.
And we are learning, Phil Goff wants to introduce a bill to enable confiscation of assets from people not even convicted of a crime. Why bother with the expense of a trial? We know they're guilty, they're ugly and their eyes are too close together.
After all, we allow punishment at the whim of a cop at the roadside so why not this?
And then we can ban bikes, because we know that they're all lawbreakers, even cops admit to being prepared to kill with their lethal speed machines.
Bring back the birch too.

[justsomeguy]

Send him home - no way. I'm sure he made an honest mistake. It was not his fault. The guy in the bike drove into him. And "fourebidan" is such a HUGE word how could he remember that???

He was only making a turn. It was the biker’s responsibility to see him. And he didn't make the biker die. The biker did it on purpose. Stupid biker. Simply putting this poor student in so much trouble.

And come on $10,000 dollars for only killing some stupid kiwi? It's still too expensive. Now the $40,000 fine for killing that little girl at the petrol station was daylight robbery. I'm sure that half that amount would be sufficient.

I think the laws here are too strict.

They should have a maximum fine of $5,000 for murder and 2 hours spent in a public toilet.

For stealing (only goods or money worth over 1 billion) a maximum fine of a $100 and no fast food for a day.

For rape and sexual assault - no penalty as it's probably the women’s fault anyway for provoking it. I'm surprised they even bothered to send a taxi for that stupid girl who got lost in Piha. I appreciate the intelligent of that excellent 111 operator who gave an excellent excuse to that guy who was being chased by some violent people. We can't find your road in our map system. I mean come on. People are always in trouble. Why should poor underpaid police have to keep up with everything. It's such hard work meeting the daily quota of tickets anyway.

For paedophiles - it's not the crims fault - you see they did not have a lot of friends to play with when they were kids so they are making up for it now. But now since they are adults they play with the kids in an adult manner.

You may disagree with me but you are all wrong.

My way is correct and all the judges agree with me.

I have gotten them to reduce the fines from $40,000 to $10,000.

Hahaha that’s a 75% decrease.

Soon I will be able to reach my $5,000 target with no jail terms.

:finger: to all you innocent people.

<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shape id=_x0000_i1026 style="WIDTH: 27pt; HEIGHT: 13.5pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href='\\\"http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/thumbsupsmileyanim.gif\\\"' src="file:///C:/DOCUME~1/Ujwal/LOCALS~1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image002.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>:2thumbsup to the way the kiwi legal system treats criminals

[Jamezo]

highly amusing! :cool:

though I feel I have to take the role of devils advocate, and present an alternative view of our legal/justice system.

A basic distinction that has to be made is the difference between 'real-life' crime and statistical crime. When someone on KB exclaims that all their shit has been stolen, that is real-life, personal crime. It feels good on a personal level to extract 'revenge', and make the 'criminal' suffer and pay as much as humanly possible. It's natural, and entirely understood.

However, on a larger scale, excessively punishing 'criminals' (there is after all not always a black and white area between the 'criminals' and the 'rest of us'), does not have the effect of reducing the actual levels of crime. In every study I can recall, harsher sentencing of crime does not appreciably reduce crime*, in fact it encourages it strongly in many ways, for example increasing the divide between the 'criminals' and 'the rest of us' as discussed earlier. This has the effect of discouraging their integration into 'regular' society, in short, statistically turning people into lifetime criminals.

As I see it, the modern legal/justice system has the task of balancing the tangible benefits of the public believing that justice and fairness prevails, versus the statistical reality that letting our primal need for 'justice' influence our legal/justice system has the consequence of actually increasing crime, to the detriment of society as a whole.

whew! that's enough thinking for one day (I already had a @#%!@&*$ 3 hour maths exam!)

*the one way in which it does, is that it physically keeps the offenders off the streets, but this is not an economic course of action.

[James Deuce]

*the one way in which it does, is that it physically keeps the offenders off the streets, but this is not an economic course of action.

Only because Corrections have neither the leeway nor the imagination to make money out of prisoners. Probably contravenes a UN treaty or two.

There is a Maximum Security prison in Nevada that has a car restoration shop that is used by people like Jay Leno - because they do such an unreal job. People are charged commercial rates, prisoners have to be exemplary prison citizens to work in the shop, and those that get out are usually poached by car restoration or panel beating businesses. This business pays for 50% of the Prison's operating cost.

[spudchucka]

Yeah! Damn right. Lets use Saddams judicial recruiter or Pol Pots or Mugabes. They didn't take any shit, no soft concepts of legal jurisprudence with those guys.
And we are learning, Phil Goff wants to introduce a bill to enable confiscation of assets from people not even convicted of a crime. Why bother with the expense of a trial? We know they're guilty, they're ugly and their eyes are too close together.
After all, we allow punishment at the whim of a cop at the roadside so why not this?
And then we can ban bikes, because we know that they're all lawbreakers, even cops admit to being prepared to kill with their lethal speed machines.
Bring back the birch too.
Go join the Green party, they seem to be a bunch like minded people to yourself.

Can you ever say something positive? Is that something you are physically capable of? Here was a thread of reasonable discussuion and you come along blowing off at the mouth as usual, trying to turn it into another anti police prodaganda thread. You are unbelievable!

[Jamezo]

Only because Corrections have neither the leeway nor the imagination to make money out of prisoners. Probably contravenes a UN treaty or two.

There is a Maximum Security prison in Nevada that has a car restoration shop that is used by people like Jay Leno - because they do such an unreal job. People are charged commercial rates, prisoners have to be exemplary prison citizens to work in the shop, and those that get out are usually poached by car restoration or panel beating businesses. This business pays for 50% of the Prison's operating cost.

amazing! but what could our prisoners do, operate a tinnie house? :pinch: :)

[Blakamin]

amazing! but what could our prisoners do
Kick back, take drugs, watch sky and work out.... ohhh... thats what they are doing already....
Might commit a crime... cheaper than rent

[justsomeguy]

amazing! but what could our prisoners do :pinch: :)Build furniture. repair appliances. Repair vehicles. Create building materials - bricks, etc. Lots of stuff - I'm sure someone with the right acumen can come up with an infinite amount of things a criminal can do.

[justsomeguy]

highly amusing! :cool:

though I feel I have to take the role of devils advocate, and present an alternative view of our legal/justice system.

A basic distinction that has to be made is the difference between 'real-life' crime and statistical crime. When someone on KB exclaims that all their shit has been stolen, that is real-life, personal crime. It feels good on a personal level to extract 'revenge', and make the 'criminal' suffer and pay as much as humanly possible. It's natural, and entirely understood.

However, on a larger scale, excessively punishing 'criminals' (there is after all not always a black and white area between the 'criminals' and the 'rest of us'), does not have the effect of reducing the actual levels of crime. In every study I can recall, harsher sentencing of crime does not appreciably reduce crime*, in fact it encourages it strongly in many ways, for example increasing the divide between the 'criminals' and 'the rest of us' as discussed earlier. This has the effect of discouraging their integration into 'regular' society, in short, statistically turning people into lifetime criminals.

As I see it, the modern legal/justice system has the task of balancing the tangible benefits of the public believing that justice and fairness prevails, versus the statistical reality that letting our primal need for 'justice' influence our legal/justice system has the consequence of actually increasing crime, to the detriment of society as a whole.

whew! that's enough thinking for one day (I already had a @#%!@&*$ 3 hour maths exam!)

*the one way in which it does, is that it physically keeps the offenders off the streets, but this is not an economic course of action.
OK thats what you think. I think that if we make the justice system really harsh - death penalty, impossibly hard prisons - then people will be less inclined to commit crimes - because the risks are too high......

Or is the criminal psyche different - they don't think they will get caught and do it anyway --

Can the cops here or someone who knows what they are talking about answer this????

[scumdog]

This sounds fine in theory, but withdrawing from the convention on international drivers licences will mean that, in turn, we will no longer be allowed to drive on our licences when overseas.
I don't think that this will prove popular.
And lets not even start on the racist implications.
Maybe, if the LTSA had people with some practical experience, they wouldn't introduce cretinous policies like the one allowing taxi applicants to use interpreters. Or even trying to make vehicle inspections, WOF etc. optional before a driving test.
It's a lot easier spending our money on brain dead adverts or contracting the Police to carry out set hours of traffic enforcement, regardless of results.

Quite right Lou, now let us hear how YOU would fix all this if you had the power :Pokey:
And who cares if we can't drive on a N.Z. licence overseas??

[vifferman]

Only because Corrections have neither the leeway nor the imagination to make money out of prisoners. Probably contravenes a UN treaty or two.Prisons here used to utilise prisoner's labour to make furniture for Gubmint departments, and probably made other stuff too. It was a good idea - gave the prsioners summat to do, they were paid some small allowance to buy smokes etc., and for some of them, it was the opportunity to learn some skills.
I'm not sure what killed it, but it was probably along the lines of "it's slave labour", "undignified" etc. Or maybe the companies that were in competition making office furntiture objected? Who knows.
It's a shame though.
I think if I was in prison I'd rather learn something or do something productive with my time than watch TV or whatever.

[Motu]

Mt Eden Prison is next to an old quarry - that's where all those stone inner city curbs came from,lovingly crafted by inmates.Prisoners can't work because of this OSH bullshit - that's why the old work for the dole schemes stopped....''he hurt himself because he wasn't trained in the use of a shovel'' Just so much PC crap tripping up the smooth running of society.

[merv]

PC, yeah let alone stopping V8 street races. What's this country coming to? It has been enjoyable visiting Oz in the last few weeks, those dudes just get on and do stuff and seem to have the money to pay for it.

[Jackrat]

I realise this thread is mainly about having a go at Asian drivers and our legal system, but I have a question.
First,what's the speed limit where this guy lost his life.
I ask this because I think it's 50km,I could be wrong.
If I'm right can anybody tell me what the outcome would of been if the guy wasn't speeding?
The speed limit in that area was never bought up in the program.
I realise the cops said his speed was not a contributing factor but as far as I'm concerned that's straight BS.If the guy had been doing 5kms less he wouldn't have even been there.
This of course brings up the subject of personal responsibility and as we all know bikers don't have much time for that subject.
Just a thought :rolleyes:

[avgas]

good point, also what was he doing taking a passenger on his L plates?

[avgas]

highly amusing! :cool:
However, on a larger scale, excessively punishing 'criminals' (there is after all not always a black and white area between the 'criminals' and the 'rest of us'), does not have the effect of reducing the actual levels of crime. In every study I can recall, harsher sentencing of crime does not appreciably reduce crime*, in fact it encourages it strongly in many ways, for example increasing the divide between the 'criminals' and 'the rest of us' as discussed earlier. This has the effect of discouraging their integration into 'regular' society, in short, statistically turning people into lifetime criminals.


I disagree here, dead crims cant cause crimes :bye: :killingme

[MD]

If I'm right can anybody tell me what the outcome would of been if the guy wasn't speeding?
The speed limit in that area was never bought up in the program.
I realise the cops said his speed was not a contributing factor but as far as I'm concerned that's straight BS.If the guy had been doing 5kms less he wouldn't have even been there....Just a thought :rolleyes:
Jackrat you seem to be implying that the rider was partly to blame for using the road that the dickhead (oops now I've let slip who I blame) decides to do a blind u-turn on? You are correct though that if he was going slower he would not have reached the point of impact as the car pulled out. BUT, conversely, if he had gone faster he would have passed the point of impact safely. Why didn't anyone tell him not to be at that exact spot and that second? There, now we've transfered the fault from the driver to ourselves.
I'm with the Police on this one, he wasn't speeding and even if he was no bastard should do a U-turn without looking. I'm a bit sensitive on this one since the same thing was done to me breaking my leg and wrecking my bike. The arsehole admitted he never looked behind, never indicated. He never said a single word to me as I lay in the road waiting for the ambulance or even acknowledged that I existed in hospital or in court. Sorry, pet hate has dragged me off on a tangent
MD

[avgas]

Mike, could you please do me a favour... is there any way in your testing you could include questions about how to use lifts? Not rocket science or anything, like, when you want to go down, press the down button, not both of them.

Heres another point id like to bring up, if you have 2 working legs, fucken use them. Cos some of us poor bastard have to use crutches on the stairs - Just cos some asshole was too lazy to walk 10 floors. Fucken wankers you know who you are. Get some flippen exercise - mabey you'll be able to ride better with some more muscle. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :gob:

[scumdog]

I realise this thread is mainly about having a go at Asian drivers and our legal system, but I have a question.
First,what's the speed limit where this guy lost his life.
I ask this because I think it's 50km,I could be wrong.
If I'm right can anybody tell me what the outcome would of been if the guy wasn't speeding?
The speed limit in that area was never bought up in the program.
I realise the cops said his speed was not a contributing factor but as far as I'm concerned that's straight BS.If the guy had been doing 5kms less he wouldn't have even been there.
This of course brings up the subject of personal responsibility and as we all know bikers don't have much time for that subject.
Just a thought :rolleyes:

THAT is why I don't even do 50 in a built up area with cars parked along each side of the street, you never know when some dickhead is going to pull out on front of you :buggerd: .

[Stinger]

THAT is why I don't even do 50 in a built up area with cars parked along each side of the street, you never know when some dickhead is going to pull out on front of you :buggerd: .

I'm with you on that one, there are particular places where you can GUARANTEE people will pull into you. Outside Universities and Colleges if you drive past them regularly then people will try to hit you with their cars. Is it their fault - Yes, is it your fault - No..., but you get hit just the same as if it was your fault.

[rodgerd]

Build furniture. repair appliances. Repair vehicles. Create building materials - bricks, etc. Lots of stuff - I'm sure someone with the right acumen can come up with an infinite amount of things a criminal can do.

Yeah, that'd be great. Imagine how stoked you'd be when your boss tells you you're joining the dole queue 'cos he can get prison labour cheap.

(This is, in fact, what happens in the US; huge chunks of Dell's call centres have been run out of prisons)

[Blakamin]

I realise this thread is mainly about having a go at Asian drivers and our legal system, but I have a question.
First,what's the speed limit where this guy lost his life.
I ask this because I think it's 50km,I could be wrong.
If I'm right can anybody tell me what the outcome would of been if the guy wasn't speeding?
The speed limit in that area was never bought up in the program.
I realise the cops said his speed was not a contributing factor but as far as I'm concerned that's straight BS.If the guy had been doing 5kms less he wouldn't have even been there.
This of course brings up the subject of personal responsibility and as we all know bikers don't have much time for that subject.
Just a thought :rolleyes:
Hindsight is amazing... "what if...."
it happened.."what if" wont change it... I bet the parents have gone "what if" a coupla thousand times by now....
A prohibited driver did a U-turn... "what if" the fucker did what he was told and stayed off the road????

[Yokai]

This couple saw a loophole in the system... and they were using it to the max.
So I wonder how many others have found this loophole....

I did. Until I got my bike licence. Not through deliberate mismanagement (well yeah, I suppose it was a choice, therefore deliberate) but rather that I didn't have the cash, and didn't really want another card to clutter up my 3 other driving licences (UK, France, California) - at what point do I get the "You can drive a car, we don't need to test you now" ticket.

I disagree with the way that testing is administered here for a number of reasons:
1 - 2 tests for 1 licence (I had to take Car test to convert and Bike test for Bike licence - that sounds cool, except that the "Core" questions were exactly the same for both tests - the LTSA could have saved on the money by doing 1 core and 1 each of the supplementals .... Much more logical - any fails on the core = a fail, 2 fails on the supplementals = a fail)

2 - It isn't stringent enough.
3 - It's badly administered
4 - If you have to have a licence after 1 year then you should be forced to carry a temporary permit issued at your port of entry.

See - I think that it is not strict enough ... Not that it isn't needed. In my case, I think that a core set of understanding of the roadcode should have been all I needed to do to convert my 3 licences ... and then the supplemental for the learners bike ... But I should have been forced to do the conversion within 3 months.

We could go the US way - and make it a "felony" or rather an imprisonable offence to drive without a valid licence after your 3months....

Yokai