Question for JD Racing and Robert T

[Shaun]

Guys, what is your opinion on this

OK, we have a bike sitting in front of us, lets say it is all set up ( ie, the suspension settings) for a fast track racer, say Craig Shirrif or Dom Jones

these guys can do a 1.47.6 lap time on it, which is quicker than lap record of last year

Now give that same bike to a rider to use on the road, all suspension settings still as per the track,

To the average road rider-

1) Would the bike probally feel fantastic?

2) Or would the bike probally feel very harsh on bumps etc


I know the question is a bit limited ( But so am I ) but am also very sure you both will understand the question fully

[Mental Trousers]

Be interesting to see what they have to say, but I know from experience that it's scary. Mainly because you can feel the potential the bike has and being on the road it's just out right dangerous because it's performance is totally mismatched to being on the road. The thing just wants to go and feels like it's just idling at 100kph, and that's just on a 650. It's kinda like how the latest litre bikes are total overkill, but it's more so with a race bike.

[Shaun]

It will be interesting to here there opinion on this, as they will understand exactually what I am saying


My thoughts are, that a bike set up for race track usage, is far to hard/ferm all over in it;s settings, to be a nice, safe, fast, road bike

Remember, I won Road races, using standard suspension forks, apart from springs and oil only!

[FROSTY]

Ok if its been propperly set up for the track its gonna be too harsh and will also not ride well over potholes due to another aspect of ractrack suspension setup.
I've wondered if the best suspenstion for BOTS is usind a firm road setup as oposed to a race setup.
Then again what the heck would I know??

[Colapop]

I'd say that the ride feel is known (ie. the suspension is harder etc) but how much will normal road rider know what the difference is? I am by no means a good rider at all and although I guess the bike would be a little more difficult to ride the rider would adjust to it...? Is that more what you mean Shaun? As I said I wouldn't know the difference apart from it being a bit twitchy - I'd adjust how I ride accordingly. At least that's what I'm guessing.

[cowpoos]

I'm Not Robert or JD...but having ridden bikes in the circumstances you discribed I have an opinion..

A bike set up on the racetrack...feels like shit on the road!!
Dispite the fact bumps are still bumps etc.. Wheelspin OMG!! all it wanted to do was wheelspin out of corners!! [which was incidently quite fun] but in breif..to hard,jaring..front wheel moves alot side to side [not to the point of a tank slapper...but alot of little sideways movement]...wheeling...it had a definate want to wheelie..off small rises or even sharp edge bumps..

Robert set up a TL1000s for me with traxxion pistons and ohlins shock..and sprung correctly,etc...and since I have never felt a roadbike that installed confidence like that one did...the feel at the front end was second to none!! I wish darely I will beable to have that sort of front end feel again some day...and the trust I had in leaning it over!! I used to without a lie! scrape the exhaust pipe [they were high pipes too] around the hairpin on the old taupo track and hav my inside foot off the peg because it was almost fully folded up!! [thinking about it now...I'm surprised I didn't I didn't crash!!]

I had a bit of a point to make while posting this...but I seem to have forgot what it was now I'm half way through typing it.

[cowpoos]

I had a bit of a point to make while posting this...but I seem to have forgot what it was now I'm half way through typing it.

Ah...remeber it now.

Feel...what is different about modern sportsbikes in reguard to front end feel??

older sportsbikes used to give better front feel...and it seems like modern bikes are more distant is this department...and I know for a fact its not just me that has noticed that...numerous people I've talked about re: this have the same conclusion and not just average riders a muti NZ champ agreed with me whole heartedly about this too!!

[maybe I should start a new thread on this issuse?]

[JD Racing]

It depends on what the racer likes, I do a lot of work with a guy who likes a very particular set up, he was leading a race by 20+ seconds so backed off, he said the bike felt so shit when he was no longer loading the suspension at race pace he had to speed up again because the bike was scaring him.

Other riders who go through all the transitions very smoothly, brake, lay the bike on it's side, pick it up again on the throttle all in one very smooth flowing arc, hardly upsetting the bike, you could ride their bike down to the shops with a tray of eggs on the back and not smash one.

[FROSTY]

It depends on what the racer likes, I do a lot of work with a guy who likes a very particular set up, he was leading a race by 20+ seconds so backed off, he said the bike felt so shit when he was no longer loading the suspension at race pace he had to speed up again because the bike was scaring him.
I guess then a suspension man needs to look not only at what should be the optimum setting for that bike on that track "in theory" but also needs to factor in the riding style of the rider -or perhaps even point on the learning curve they are at ?

[Shaun]

It depends on what the racer likes, I do a lot of work with a guy who likes a very particular set up, he was leading a race by 20+ seconds so backed off, he said the bike felt so shit when he was no longer loading the suspension at race pace he had to speed up again because the bike was scaring him.

Other riders who go through all the transitions very smoothly, brake, lay the bike on it's side, pick it up again on the throttle all in one very smooth flowing arc, hardly upsetting the bike, you could ride their bike down to the shops with a tray of eggs on the back and not smash one.



Yea, I have a friend that will not join sites like this, BUT READS IT A LOT! and I was suggesting to him, that my personell set up for a race bike, will not be ideal for him for using on the road, as we ride at a very different pace, so I have said that we should work on his own personell set up, as what one man likes, another may not!

He has already contacted me since reading your reply, and it seems we now understand each other a bit better, he now realises that what works for one man, might not work for another.

[kiwifruit]

what if a shock with high and low speed compression damping is used?



High speed refers to the velocity of the wheel moving up and down, not how fast the bike is moving around the track. Low speed compression is "firmness" or "feel". High speed compression is "bumps".You need to be able to "dial in low speed compression" to restore chassis feel. Once your bike is set up to have a firm feel and be compliant over bumps, you will be able to return a smooth track and change little or nothing. The bike will not need to soak as many bumps, and it will still feel firm.

[Shaun]

I'd say that the ride feel is known (ie. the suspension is harder etc) but how much will normal road rider know what the difference is? I am by no means a good rider at all and although I guess the bike would be a little more difficult to ride the rider would adjust to it...? Is that more what you mean Shaun? As I said I wouldn't know the difference apart from it being a bit twitchy - I'd adjust how I ride accordingly. At least that's what I'm guessing.



Kind of yea man! I was having a talk with a freind of mine about setting up his GSXR 1000, he asked me to just set it all up as I would have for my own track usage, but he only rides on the road, and as I know what the roads are like as A RIDER, I suggested we did not do that, and worked on his own set up, so he got a bike he liked the most:niceone:

He has now read the reply given by JD Racing, and now realises that settings need to be made for the riders pace and now understands how one mans set up may or not work for a different rider

[Shaun]

what if a shock with high and low speed compression damping is used?




PARDON? Sorry man, missed the question there???????

[kiwifruit]

PARDON? Sorry man, missed the question there???????

Isn't the point of having high and low speed compression damping to reduce the compromise between smooth and bumpy set ups?
I may well be talking shit :)

[Shaun]

Isn't the point of having high and low speed compression damping to reduce the compromise between smooth and bumpy set ups?
I may well be talking shit :)



You have got that part write! BUt there is more to a shock set up than just High and Low compression settings, spring rate, sags, Rebound, ride height, shims etc etc etc

[Robert Taylor]

Guys, what is your opinion on this

OK, we have a bike sitting in front of us, lets say it is all set up ( ie, the suspension settings) for a fast track racer, say Craig Shirrif or Dom Jones

these guys can do a 1.47.6 lap time on it, which is quicker than lap record of last year

Now give that same bike to a rider to use on the road, all suspension settings still as per the track,

To the average road rider-

1) Would the bike probally feel fantastic?

2) Or would the bike probally feel very harsh on bumps etc


I know the question is a bit limited ( But so am I ) but am also very sure you both will understand the question fully

Its a no brainer and frankly also the level of local road racing has moved on substanially, its getting harder and harder for someone to win races with stock or average aftermarket bits, unless they want to stick their kneck out right on the edge or exceeding their comfort zone. And frankly also a lot of oem and cheap aftermarket stuff looks very ugly at elevated speeds.

The question is indeed oversimplistic because there is no allowance for rider height and weight and myriad other factors. SIMPLY, the suspension must be set for the application, skill level, rider height weight and style, perception of feel he/she wants, overall loading ( passengers, baggage etc ) and there must be a response range to make spring preload and clicker changes. This very often involves internally resetting the suspension. I can remember one road racer of average weight who wanted everything rock hard, it worked for him but would be unrideable for everyone else.

Robbie Bugden uses the exact valving spec we developed with Craig Shirriffs but because he is shorter and lighter uses a spring rate typically 2 steps lighter. Damian Cudlin uses a valving spec 1 step firmer than Gareth Jones because he likes a steeper damping curve build up at mid to higher shaft velocities to ''catch'' the looser low speed damping feel he prefers, and so on...The more riders you work with the more you can join all the feedback together to get an overall picture of what is going on. We get feedback from rank amateurs that has also proven to be valuable, in spite of different ways of describing things.

Given the same rider stats and machine a top level road racer will require a lot different internal valving spec, springing and geometry simply because at higher velocities and corner speeds everything is loaded to a much higher degree. And what about the loadings that high grip level tyres place on the chassis? Adjustments to INTERNAL by pass bleed for track and tyre temperature etc. ( able to do so externally on very low dispacement shocks such as TTX36 )

The great misconception incorrectly perpetuated by some and believed by some is that external clickers are a magic cure all for all track and road conditions. That may appeal to those who want things to be as simple as possible but the reality is not as rosy, given that the manufacturers / onsellers who perpetuaute this myth have their own ''setting banks'' of internal valving specs for varying rider weights and also skill levels. It is up to the seller of suspension product to have an intimate internal knowledge of shim stacks, by pass bleed and myriad other factors that affect function such as hysterisis when a shock shaft changes direction etc. This game is a whole lot more complex than many choose to beleive.

I have been down the track where some overseas suppliers have brazenly stated that the settings are perfect and youll never have to revalve, ever! Just wind the clickers..... Yeah right..... An American rider turned up with one of these ''fabled'' shocks a couple of years or so back and it got promptly ditched for an Ohlins so the bike could ride the bumps at Pukekohe.

Proudly we always send out stuff set up specifically for the customer and if further optimistaion is required we do so, for road or track, two distinctly different applications.

[cowpoos]

what if a shock with high and low speed compression damping is used?
Depends alot on how and if the shock has be specifiacally set up for you.
and High speed compression is not understood very well...and it has a limited amount of effect in alot of different circumstances..more value should be placed on correct internal valving spec for rider and motorcycle in theit normal operating conditions..and low speed compression adjustmen for rider prefference [low speed adjustment does have an effect across the range aswell as just low speed too]

and if your taking about a stock shock [high and low speed version] its a gimmick!

[Robert Taylor]

Depends alot on how and if the shock has be specifiacally set up for you.
and High speed compression is not understood very well...and it has a limited amount of effect in alot of different circumstances..more value should be placed on correct internal valving spec for rider and motorcycle in theit normal operating conditions..and low speed compression adjustmen for rider prefference [low speed adjustment does have an effect across the range aswell as just low speed too]

and if your taking about a stock shock [high and low speed version] its a gimmick!

If you were only allowed to have 1 damping adjuster on the shock the first choice would have to be rebound. If 2 were allowed add low speed compression, and I mean a true low speed compression adjuster that adjusts damping from the moment it moves from zero velocity. Note that normal displacement dampers do not adjust low speed damping, it is more like mid speed damping. If allowed 3 adjusters third choice would be high speed rebound. If allowed 4 then high speed compression, BUT a true high speed compression adjuster that is acting as a poppet in the main piston shaft, not acting on the displacement of the shaft like Ohlins 46PRX, WP, Penske etc.

We work with NZs fastest tin top race car, a TVR Tuscan fitted with 4 way adjustable Ohlins TTX40 dampers. With these dampers there is a valving reference programme that you can input your new proposed settings into and overlay on your current, very cool and over a million combinations. With high and low speed its also about overlap and shaping the curves.

Allied with this the team also has top of the line Motec data logging system inclusive of track mapping, g sensors, tyre temperature pyros and percentage of time in low speed / high speed rebound and compression. Its taken a while to understand all of this and interface it with our seat of the pants experience. But, the logging really has identified cause and effect.

This is not being arrogant or cynical, it is fact....most riders have trouble working with one damping adjuster. I could pick on a sample of 10 bikes at a track day and 5 or more would have too much rebound damping. ( For example )

Poos is correct, with oem shocks high and low speed it is largely a gimmick there for marketing reasons, a little akin to stick on carbon fibre, ''adding '' lightness!

In road racing Robbie Bugden, Dennis Charlett and Glen Williams are not asking for shocks with dual hi and lo speed.

I would be happy to provide the enquirer with graphs of high speed adjusters on two different brands of shock.

[Robert Taylor]

Isn't the point of having high and low speed compression damping to reduce the compromise between smooth and bumpy set ups?
I may well be talking shit :)

Think about this, on a fast flowing track ( just Like JD referred to ) you can often have a soft set up because there are no major chassis disturbances. On a bumpy track you can often end up with a firm setup! Bear in mind that here in this 3rd world communist country we must run standard links. Within limits more low speed compression is run to keep the suspension high in the stroke in the supple part of spring and link travel. Very often this may be allied with a steep higher shaft speed damping curve to ''arrest'' sudden shaft movements. There are several different ways to skin the cat.

On conventional displacement dampers it is arguable that high speed damping adjusters have been fitted as an adjustable dump valve because the shocks are reactive and dont damp in real time. Oversimplistically there has to be a lot of low and mid speed ( not mid stroke!!! ) damping to ''catch the runaway train'' And because there is so much damping there has to be a means of dumping it at higher velocities. JDs input would be interesting on this one.

It seems that with the TTX36 it damps a hell of a lot closer to real time so it is catching the movement a lot sooner before it has built up momentum. So less damping is required which means there is much less or in fact no requirement for a high speed adjuster to bleed off too much damping aggression at higher velocities.

Ho hum....

[R6_kid]

Even though i know sfa about the internals of a shock this is proving very interesting...

[cowpoos]

If you were only allowed to have 1 damping adjuster on the shock the first choice would have to be rebound.

That would be why [and as its be explained to me]..[why another person [whos not on KB and not in NZ] I have been learning about damping off reffers to rebound as traction??? and the area I explored more on my bike over the VMCC winter series than any other [and on my RMZ250. all though it has a not very dramatic effect from what I can tell on the stock shock.] starting with when yourself and TDC released some extra rebound on my bike on the second round after I was having hook up issuses at manfield [and killing a other wise good slick]

one thing that I still query about the TTX shock is having to reley on a ohlins techincian being on hand for Valving changes at the track to tune the TTX...and by no means am I putting the product down as I'm yet to try it...and have heard nothing but hugly positive sentiments towards it...and also you are at almost every race meeting club level or national level supporting your product..

and...when are the TTX fork cartridges avalible?? ;)

[slowpoke]

Ok, so all the quick fuckers out there have a certain way they like the bike to "feel"....have you guys ever experienced a situation where a top level racer didn't like the way their bike was handling but found it was quicker than than their "normal" set-up?
The reason I ask is that those of us with very little experience and/or access to expert assistance often make a change to our bikes and have difficulty quantifying the results. Often the bike "feels" worse but without a stopwatch and the ability to ride several virtually identical hardcore laps in a row then it's hard to actually verify.
I mean all the Ducati Desmosedici reports I've read (I fuggin' lurve that thing!)indicate it feels ugly at mere mortal speed but as soon as the rider starts amping up the pace it is transformed into the ultimate track tool (as opposed to myself who also happens to be a track "tool" but in a more colloquial way). What do you look for to make the call between "this feels like shit, I'm gonna crash if I go faster" as opposed to "gawd, this feels like shit, so I better go faster"?

[Robert Taylor]

That would be why [and as its be explained to me]..[why another person [whos not on KB and not in NZ] I have been learning about damping off reffers to rebound as traction??? and the area I explored more on my bike over the VMCC winter series than any other [and on my RMZ250. all though it has a not very dramatic effect from what I can tell on the stock shock.] starting with when yourself and TDC released some extra rebound on my bike on the second round after I was having hook up issuses at manfield [and killing a other wise good slick]

one thing that I still query about the TTX shock is having to reley on a ohlins techincian being on hand for Valving changes at the track to tune the TTX...and by no means am I putting the product down as I'm yet to try it...and have heard nothing but hugly positive sentiments towards it...and also you are at almost every race meeting club level or national level supporting your product..

and...when are the TTX fork cartridges avalible?? ;)

Yes indeed rebound is about traction, every length of tarmac has hollows / depressions in it so the wheel must react downwards fast enough for the tyre to find the track. The rebound speed ( both high and low speed ) must be fast enough to allow it to do so. I can push on a whole row of bikes and find a lot with too slow rebound.

With respect to trackside revalving of TTX36 and the fact I am there doing so is your observation /perception and one that competitors ( who offer no at track revalving ) love to perpetuate.''They need work and ours dont''. ( BOLLOCKS ) But thats also because there is a void in equipment, experience or in depth training to do so.

So hear it from the horses mouth guys.......we used to also do so with older style 46 series ( and still do ) BECAUSE I AM INTENSELY INTERESTED AND THIS IS WHAT I DO. Case in point the TTX concept is so new and we are doing ongoing work that gets fed back to the factory.

We could not turn up and because the response range to external adjustment is so wide they would still work very well. We pulled a bone stock one out of its box at last years round of the nationals at Manfield, fitted it to Chris Seatons R1 and he promptly smashed the lap record.

And then ( for example ) we have custom built TTX for SV650s as Ohlins dont make for same. This was a protracted development over the winter with Glen Williams and bless him he is now reaping the ultimate benefit with the F3 national title in his sights. Terry Fitz also piggybacked onto this and the superiority of their suspension was emphatically apparent at Paeroa on the weekend.

I feel happy to provide such service and as a reality check it needs to be re-iterated that a whole lot of it is goodwill at no charge.

Stay posted re TTX cartridges, I worked with 600 Supersport ones at Philip Island and they are very very good.

[Robert Taylor]

Ok, so all the quick fuckers out there have a certain way they like the bike to "feel"....have you guys ever experienced a situation where a top level racer didn't like the way their bike was handling but found it was quicker than than their "normal" set-up?
The reason I ask is that those of us with very little experience and/or access to expert assistance often make a change to our bikes and have difficulty quantifying the results. Often the bike "feels" worse but without a stopwatch and the ability to ride several virtually identical hardcore laps in a row then it's hard to actually verify.
I mean all the Ducati Desmosedici reports I've read (I fuggin' lurve that thing!)indicate it feels ugly at mere mortal speed but as soon as the rider starts amping up the pace it is transformed into the ultimate track tool (as opposed to myself who also happens to be a track "tool" but in a more colloquial way). What do you look for to make the call between "this feels like shit, I'm gonna crash if I go faster" as opposed to "gawd, this feels like shit, so I better go faster"? Yes, yes and yes. The set up difference between Robbie Bugden and Andrew Stroud is like a polar opposite. The Japanese use a term ''rider feel''. Most often if the rider likes what he feels he will often go faster. A notable exception is my pet hate that we find most often with novice riders, TOO MUCH REBOUND. If you see me at a track, sure I am busy. But if you have questions come and ask, I can very often talk to people while I am working.

[dino3310]

my wrists and lower back are getting sore just thinking about track set up on the road, but i'ld be stoked to be riding a bike set up by the famous you so it would be worth it

[JD Racing]

On conventional displacement dampers it is arguable that high speed damping adjusters have been fitted as an adjustable dump valve because the shocks are reactive and dont damp in real time. Oversimplistically there has to be a lot of low and mid speed ( not mid stroke!!! ) damping to ''catch the runaway train'' And because there is so much damping there has to be a means of dumping it at higher velocities. JDs input would be interesting on this one.



I'm not convinced of the whole runaway train concept, a correctly balanced shock will respond very rapidly, also we are not talking about a precision operating apparatus, if the TTx has an advantage we are talking about milliseconds, between the input at the wheel and the shock, you've got a tyre with variable stiffness, a long lever which flexes, twists and bends and a myriad of needle roller bearings, tie rods and rocker arms all with seals on, then to finish the job off the shock is sheathed with a bent piece of rod.

The PRX and the adjusters on WP, Wilbers etc are effectively dump valves, the shock you love to hate though does have an adjuster that operates in a more mid speed range.

[Robert Taylor]

I'm not convinced of the whole runaway train concept, a correctly balanced shock will respond very rapidly, also we are not talking about a precision operating apparatus, if the TTx has an advantage we are talking about milliseconds, between the input at the wheel and the shock, you've got a tyre with variable stiffness, a long lever which flexes, twists and bends and a myriad of needle roller bearings, tie rods and rocker arms all with seals on, then to finish the job off the shock is sheathed with a bent piece of rod.

The PRX and the adjusters on WP, Wilbers etc are effectively dump valves, the shock you love to hate though does have an adjuster that operates in a more mid speed range.

The proof though has been in the pudding and if it is milliseconds ( which I have always thought ) then that is enough. All of the other factors you mention are a relative constant, but if you have a shock that is more reactive more quickly then it makes sense. If you do better work at the very start of stroke there is then less effort required to control movement later on. ( I know that sounds simple ) Heck, you and I have played around with settings that mess with hysterisis ( delay or otherwise in damping buildup ) and noticed a difference. So minimising the delay is a good thing.

Yes indeed they are dump valves and although some people maligned the Ohlins one I have found the response range to be quite reasonable, and it is a ''slope adjuster''

I didnt say I hate that shock, just the ill informed and frankly incorrect hype that is going on about no revalving required. My own dyno graphs concur that it is a mid speed adjuster that gives a second knee that does nothing to the slope angle, it just parrallells it. Personally, I think it is more ideal to alter the slope angle, especially for bumpy tracks and my own experience working with both systems confirms that.

[johnsv650]

hi robert,
i read above about glen williams and terrys shocks, how much inprovement are they over a shock which is about 3 years old ?
your help at the nationals has been outstanding and many thanks to you and kerry........fantastic service........well its more than service.......
might have to budget for next year new shock and forks.....
john

[Robert Taylor]

hi robert,
i read above about glen williams and terrys shocks, how much inprovement are they over a shock which is about 3 years old ?
your help at the nationals has been outstanding and many thanks to you and kerry........fantastic service........well its more than service.......
might have to budget for next year new shock and forks.....
john

Probably best to talk to Glen, he did all the testing...and its only fitting in that sense that he is going to achieve his goal. PM me at some stage or talk to me at the next round and I will fill you in as I have some good options.

I dont think the service is good enough yet and we aim to improve it. I have been notified today that we will have a Swedish engineer out from Ohlins later in the year so we will be planning some sort of seminars. As these guys are at the very top of the game in the motorcycle suspension world this will be something to look forward to....

[White trash]

It depends on what the racer likes, I do a lot of work with a guy who likes a very particular set up, he was leading a race by 20+ seconds so backed off, he said the bike felt so shit when he was no longer loading the suspension at race pace he had to speed up again because the bike was scaring him.

Other riders who go through all the transitions very smoothly, brake, lay the bike on it's side, pick it up again on the throttle all in one very smooth flowing arc, hardly upsetting the bike, you could ride their bike down to the shops with a tray of eggs on the back and not smash one.
Interestingly, I've seen this very regularly in my own very short racing career. Shaun's a nice enough bloke to have helped me immensly from the beginning of this.

When I first rode his 600 at Puke' in April last year, I took it easy for the first practice session and felt thoroughly uncomfortable. The bike felt "pitchy" and unstable. Second session and I decided to see what I could do on the current setup. As soon as I got aggressive, the bike got good. And I mean REAL good. I felt like I could get away with murder on it

I witnessed exactly the same thing at a following trackday. A suspension tuner had a fiddle with a racers SV650. The racer sent his mate racer for a test ride who promptly proclaimed the bike was crap and they'd just undone six months of hard work. The racer then rode the bike himself, stating the exact same thing. The tuner thinks "This can't be right!" climbs on the bike himself and runs three laps 5 seconds per lap quicker than the racers. All they needed to do was get aggressive with the thing.

I think this is where the difference lies between a well set up track bike and road bike. You simply can't ride a bike on the road with the aggression to make a well set up race bike handle well.

Make sense? Thought not :D

[Robert Taylor]

Interestingly, I've seen this very regularly in my own very short racing career. Shaun's a nice enough bloke to have helped me immensly from the beginning of this.

When I first rode his 600 at Puke' in April last year, I took it easy for the first practice session and felt thoroughly uncomfortable. The bike felt "pitchy" and unstable. Second session and I decided to see what I could do on the current setup. As soon as I got aggressive, the bike got good. And I mean REAL good. I felt like I could get away with murder on it

I witnessed exactly the same thing at a following trackday. A suspension tuner had a fiddle with a racers SV650. The racer sent his mate racer for a test ride who promptly proclaimed the bike was crap and they'd just undone six months of hard work. The racer then rode the bike himself, stating the exact same thing. The tuner thinks "This can't be right!" climbs on the bike himself and runs three laps 5 seconds per lap quicker than the racers. All they needed to do was get aggressive with the thing.

I think this is where the difference lies between a well set up track bike and road bike. You simply can't ride a bike on the road with the aggression to make a well set up race bike handle well.

Make sense? Thought not :D

Also, as a novice racer gets faster they demand firmer settings. ALSO, a bike set up for the winter series ( low track and tyre temps ) will be a wobbly piece of jelly in the middle of the summer nats.

[jrandom]

Goddammit, this thread is making me want a racebike.

<_<

[White trash]

Stay posted re TTX cartridges, I worked with 600 Supersport ones at Philip Island and they are very very good.


Certainly hope I'm on the waiting list for a pair of them critters.

[FROSTY]

I witnessed exactly the same thing at a following trackday. A suspension tuner had a fiddle with a racers SV650. The racer sent his mate racer for a test ride who promptly proclaimed the bike was crap and they'd just undone six months of hard work. The racer then rode the bike himself, stating the exact same thing. The tuner thinks "This can't be right!" climbs on the bike himself and runs three laps 5 seconds per lap quicker than the racers. All they needed to do was get aggressive with the thing.
Yup couldn't agree more--cept you missed one lil bit out--said tuner told said racer to "ride the fucking thing like its soposed to be ridden-fast"
The bike felt a shit load better being ridden at a more agressive pace -or so Im told

[cowpoos]

I feel happy to provide such service and as a reality check it needs to be re-iterated that a whole lot of it is goodwill at no charge.

This is totally true...and you have been known to shout the odd compeditor a beer the night before a race :) Can't ask for better service than that I reckon!!




Stay posted re TTX cartridges, I worked with 600 Supersport ones at Philip Island and they are very very good.

I'll take a set!!


I'm not convinced of the whole runaway train concept, a correctly balanced shock will respond very rapidly

In context...the X distance traveled at Y speed...and with how many shock movements taking place for bumps only?? not including other forces placed on the unit...I'm sure the milliseconds would add up??


I have been notified today that we will have a Swedish engineer out from Ohlins later in the year so we will be planning some sort of seminars. As these guys are at the very top of the game in the motorcycle suspension world this will be something to look forward to....

Sounds awesome..would really like to attened that!

[Teambwr47]

If there's a chance to put my name down for any seminar that takes place Robert then please add my name to the list.

[Robert Taylor]

This is totally true...and you have been known to shout the odd compeditor a beer the night before a race :) Can't ask for better service than that I reckon!!



I'll take a set!!



In context...the X distance traveled at Y speed...and with how many shock movements taking place for bumps only?? not including other forces placed on the unit...I'm sure the milliseconds would add up??



Sounds awesome..would really like to attened that!

You will have to get your spelling sorted first and improve your dress sense!

[Robert Taylor]

If there's a chance to put my name down for any seminar that takes place Robert then please add my name to the list.

Okay, it will be a prerequisite ( not unaturally ) that attendees are first and foremost exclusive Ohlins customers as space will be limited.

[Sensei]

Hope that means seen my bike is the real deal not add on parts then i'll be
1st in line Robert & I want mind making you the coffee this time ! LOL :niceone:

[cowpoos]

You will have to get your spelling sorted first and improve your dress sense!
Your lecturing me about dress sence!!! Oh dear! I'm lost for avalible and applicable words!!...and even if I knew some...And could spell them...I would mis-spell them out of jest!!

[JD Racing]

The proof though has been in the pudding and if it is milliseconds ( which I have always thought ) then that is enough. All of the other factors you mention are a relative constant, but if you have a shock that is more reactive more quickly then it makes sense. If you do better work at the very start of stroke there is then less effort required to control movement later on. ( I know that sounds simple ) Heck, you and I have played around with settings that mess with hysterisis ( delay or otherwise in damping buildup ) and noticed a difference. So minimising the delay is a good thing.

Yes indeed they are dump valves and although some people maligned the Ohlins one I have found the response range to be quite reasonable, and it is a ''slope adjuster''

I didnt say I hate that shock, just the ill informed and frankly incorrect hype that is going on about no revalving required. My own dyno graphs concur that it is a mid speed adjuster that gives a second knee that does nothing to the slope angle, it just parrallells it. Personally, I think it is more ideal to alter the slope angle, especially for bumpy tracks and my own experience working with both systems confirms that.

I don't know how you can say all the other factors remain constant, if I change from a Pirelli to a Dunlop, I just decreased my response time, if I change from a steel spring to a Ti spring I just decreased my response time, if I never ever strip clean and lubricate my linkage I just increased my response time, I could tighten my chain like a bowstring, severly increasing my response time and so it goes on, there are a whole mass of variables between the input at the wheel and the shock.

We both know that what shows up on the dyno need not have any bearing whatsoever in what happens on the bike.

[Robert Taylor]

I don't know how you can say all the other factors remain constant, if I change from a Pirelli to a Dunlop, I just decreased my response time, if I change from a steel spring to a Ti spring I just decreased my response time, if I never ever strip clean and lubricate my linkage I just increased my response time, I could tighten my chain like a bowstring, severly increasing my response time and so it goes on, there are a whole mass of variables between the input at the wheel and the shock.

We both know that what shows up on the dyno need not have any bearing whatsoever in what happens on the bike.

I think that is splitting hairs, the intent included the tyres remaining constant, and the springing etc. You misconstrued and certainly I am very abundantly aware of the differences between Pirelli and Dunlop.

I am also aware of both the very real value and the limitations of dynos. Those with rather less understanding who condemn them conveniently forget that the shocks they race with owe part of their development to dyno testing

[slowpoke]

You will have to get your spelling sorted first and improve your dress sense!

Are you kiddin' me, 'Poos has got a "fabulous" collection of dresses....

[Shaun]

I think that is splitting hairs, the intent included the tyres remaining constant, and the springing etc. You misconstrued and certainly I am very abundantly aware of the differences between Pirelli and Dunlop.

I am also aware of both the very real value and the limitations of dynos. Those with rather less understanding who condemn them conveniently forget that the shocks they race with owe part of their development to dyno testing



Who would condemn your shock Dyno machine? Between your OLD test riders and that machine, your knoledge has grown hugely:scooter:

[Shaun]

Interestingly, I've seen this very regularly in my own very short racing career. Shaun's a nice enough bloke to have helped me immensly from the beginning of this.

When I first rode his 600 at Puke' in April last year, I took it easy for the first practice session and felt thoroughly uncomfortable. The bike felt "pitchy" and unstable. Second session and I decided to see what I could do on the current setup. As soon as I got aggressive, the bike got good. And I mean REAL good. I felt like I could get away with murder on it

I witnessed exactly the same thing at a following trackday. A suspension tuner had a fiddle with a racers SV650. The racer sent his mate racer for a test ride who promptly proclaimed the bike was crap and they'd just undone six months of hard work. The racer then rode the bike himself, stating the exact same thing. The tuner thinks "This can't be right!" climbs on the bike himself and runs three laps 5 seconds per lap quicker than the racers. All they needed to do was get aggressive with the thing.

I think this is where the difference lies between a well set up track bike and road bike. You simply can't ride a bike on the road with the aggression to make a well set up race bike handle well.

Make sense? Thought not :D


Good input mate, The point I was leading to here was as you have put it as well as JD Reference to his racer rider

Differnt courses for different horses.

JD reference, showed that his race riders set up needs to be ridden fast and hard to work and feel at it's best safest settings ( as well as uping the concentration level of the rider)

Where as a slower rider, on the road or the race track, needs a different setting so the bike still feels nice and safe!

So yea, you can go out and spend $2000+ on really good trick front end parts, but I honestly believe, the average road rider does not need this set up at all! Having said that, if you have the cash to spare, and love to know and grow in the motorcycle game, spend away, you will not regret it!

As far as rear shocks go, Penske or Ohlin"s, I have ridden and raced on both! Standard as they come from the factory, they are both bloody great quality!

[Robert Taylor]

Good input mate, The point I was leading to here was as you have put it as well as JD Reference to his racer rider

Differnt courses for different horses.

JD reference, showed that his race riders set up needs to be ridden fast and hard to work and feel at it's best safest settings ( as well as uping the concentration level of the rider)

Where as a slower rider, on the road or the race track, needs a different setting so the bike still feels nice and safe!

So yea, you can go out and spend $2000+ on really good trick front end parts, but I honestly believe, the average road rider does not need this set up at all! Having said that, if you have the cash to spare, and love to know and grow in the motorcycle game, spend away, you will not regret it!

As far as rear shocks go, Penske or Ohlin"s, I have ridden and raced on both! Standard as they come from the factory, they are both bloody great quality!

And exactly why Crown Kiwi Technical has mid price and lower price options and a whole database of settings.

[Robert Taylor]

Good input mate, The point I was leading to here was as you have put it as well as JD Reference to his racer rider

Differnt courses for different horses.

JD reference, showed that his race riders set up needs to be ridden fast and hard to work and feel at it's best safest settings ( as well as uping the concentration level of the rider)

Where as a slower rider, on the road or the race track, needs a different setting so the bike still feels nice and safe!

So yea, you can go out and spend $2000+ on really good trick front end parts, but I honestly believe, the average road rider does not need this set up at all! Having said that, if you have the cash to spare, and love to know and grow in the motorcycle game, spend away, you will not regret it!

As far as rear shocks go, Penske or Ohlin"s, I have ridden and raced on both! Standard as they come from the factory, they are both bloody great quality!

Actually everyone that has used our mid price ''rekits'' has been happy and if on the race track they have lapped faster. If they have gone the whole hog with our ''twin tube pressure balanced shocks'' and FGK cartridge kits they have lapped faster again.

Once we are established in our new premises we will be actively rekitting many standard shocks and Rekitting front forks, so if people are price conscious and want very good value for money this will be a very worthwhile option. ( Well below the price of a mid range shock ). As we have a database and lots of setting experience with Ohlins we know what we need to mimic as close as possible. This is where the suspension dyno has been and will continue to be invaluable.
Test riders we have had over the years have also been very valuable and currently I would have to rate feedback from Andrew Stroud and Damien Cudlin very highly. With Tony Rees being the only exception none of the riders I have worked with are trained in pulling shocks apart and reassembling, and therefore not so conversant with valving techniques to get the overall feel desired. Having myself ridden motorcycles since 1973 I have a very reasonable perception of what damping and ride height control should work like. Thats an average road riders perception ( most of us )

[Pussy]

I'll be VERY interested to see how the Racetech shock revalves go, and how the fork internals go with the doctor's personalised setting up.
Will all the stuff on Racetech's site be available here?

[JD Racing]

The proof though has been in the pudding and if it is milliseconds ( which I have always thought ) then that is enough. All of the other factors you mention are a relative constant, but if you have a shock that is more reactive more quickly then it makes sense. If you do better work at the very start of stroke there is then less effort required to control movement later on. ( I know that sounds simple ) Heck, you and I have played around with settings that mess with hysterisis ( delay or otherwise in damping buildup ) and noticed a difference. So minimising the delay is a good thing.

Yes indeed they are dump valves and although some people maligned the Ohlins one I have found the response range to be quite reasonable, and it is a ''slope adjuster''

I didnt say I hate that shock, just the ill informed and frankly incorrect hype that is going on about no revalving required. My own dyno graphs concur that it is a mid speed adjuster that gives a second knee that does nothing to the slope angle, it just parrallells it. Personally, I think it is more ideal to alter the slope angle, especially for bumpy tracks and my own experience working with both systems confirms that.

I've just been reading a post by an Ohlins official representative about TTX shocks on another forum, it was being claimed that Ohlins recommend 15mm of sag with TTX shocks, that kind of blows the couple of milliseconds advantage out of the window.

[Shaun]

I've just been reading a post by an Ohlins official representative about TTX shocks on another forum, it was being claimed that Ohlins recommend 15mm of sag with TTX shocks, that kind of blows the couple of milliseconds advantage out of the window.


I can only imagine that the 15mm sag, is Top out Versus static sag? NOT RIDER 1G? Rather a large number there do you not think?

And if it is, would the shock not still have quick reaction time, due to the fact that it is sitting in the working range of the shaft now?

Surely, the only lag time for quick action with this set up, would be after getting on and off the brakes, and extending the shock to full top out? Untill it settles back down again, to the rider sag weight set up range?

[cowpoos]

I've just been reading a post by an Ohlins official representative about TTX shocks on another forum, it was being claimed that Ohlins recommend 15mm of sag with TTX shocks, that kind of blows the couple of milliseconds advantage out of the window.
static or rider?? and was the for road? track?

[Shaun]

static or rider?? and was the for road? track?


Was my question back not enough for you mate, or are you just another reader, who only reads what they want to, and not the whole thread:bleh:

[Robert Taylor]

I've just been reading a post by an Ohlins official representative about TTX shocks on another forum, it was being claimed that Ohlins recommend 15mm of sag with TTX shocks, that kind of blows the couple of milliseconds advantage out of the window.

Please avail some more detail...............note that when setting up we are more preoccupied with the Rider 1g setting and will test different rate springs around that. You know how that set-up mentality works................

[Robert Taylor]

I can only imagine that the 15mm sag, is Top out Versus static sag? NOT RIDER 1G? Rather a large number there do you not think?

And if it is, would the shock not still have quick reaction time, due to the fact that it is sitting in the working range of the shaft now?

Surely, the only lag time for quick action with this set up, would be after getting on and off the brakes, and extending the shock to full top out? Untill it settles back down again, to the rider sag weight set up range?

Exactly Shaun and I fail to see what JD is getting at until he embellishes his comment with more detail.

Such a number for static ( bike only ) would be huge but ''set up'' numbers are interesting and used too much as a bible by many. A rider can have numbers that appear plain nuts but if they work for him and hes doing the lap times then all well and good.
As an aside in the case of a 125 road race bike the sag reading in the rear has to a degree be more subservient to setting the correct fairing attitude into the airstream to minimise drag. This can all get quite interesting.

[Shaun P]

Heres my experience of how suspension developed for me last year starting race at the Vic series on stock suspension which performed adequately on the road. I first approached RT and Kerry about my rear tyre shredding itself after a track/race session, and tried to sort out the comp dampening but shock was limited as pace was increased also it was not easily adjustable for ride height or adviseable to change the spring rate as the shock would overheat rapidly :( The only answer was to change the shock to get the adjustability/damping that was needed - so a TTX36 was fitted with some already tested valving. The ride height and clickers needed some adjustment to get the desired feel/handling and tyre wear characteristics.
That was all good but now the front end was feeling unresponsive and unpredictable, adjustments were made to try and improve the rebound but really was only a temporary 'fix'. Next the Ohlins 25mm cartridges went in with a standard rate spring and spacer to replace the stock progressive wound one. That made a huge difference to the front end but changes were still needed to the spring rate and oil level height and front end ride height..

By the time I had this fairly well sorted it was the past the end of the Vic Series but my point being you really need to start with a good baseline setting and components for your application and make changes as they are needed to correct a handling deficiency /tyre wear problem, not just put in all the high spec components because thats what the racers have.

Hope this is in context for this thread :niceone:

[Shaun]

Heres my experience of how suspension developed for me last year starting race at the Vic series on stock suspension which performed adequately on the road. I first approached RT and Kerry about my rear tyre shredding itself after a track/race session, and tried to sort out the comp dampening but shock was limited as pace was increased also it was not easily adjustable for ride height or adviseable to change the spring rate as the shock would overheat rapidly :( The only answer was to change the shock to get the adjustability/damping that was needed - so a TTX36 was fitted with some already tested valving. The ride height and clickers needed some adjustment to get the desired feel/handling and tyre wear characteristics.
That was all good but now the front end was feeling unresponsive and unpredictable, adjustments were made to try and improve the rebound but really was only a temporary 'fix'. Next the Ohlins 25mm cartridges went in with a standard rate spring and spacer to replace the stock progressive wound one. That made a huge difference to the front end but changes were still needed to the spring rate and oil level height and front end ride height..

By the time I had this fairly well sorted it was the past the end of the Vic Series but my point being you really need to start with a good baseline setting and components for your application and make changes as they are needed to correct a handling deficiency /tyre wear problem, not just put in all the high spec components because thats what the racers have.

Hope this is in context for this thread :niceone:


Sure is man, and after all that trick gear you had put in the bike, WHO WAS IT THAT FIXED THE FRONT END HANDLING FOR YOU AS A RIDER?

And how much difference did it create for you as a rider after that?

And how much did it cost you?

I like a good laugh

[Shaun P]

Sure is man, and after all that trick gear you had put in the bike, WHO WAS IT THAT FIXED THE FRONT END HANDLING FOR YOU AS A RIDER?

And how much difference did it create for you as a rider after that?

And how much did it cost you?

I like a good laugh


Yep what happened was the front forks were bottoming and an increase in oil level height didnt solve it so a 9.5 rate spring was fitted in place of a 9.0 so it slowed the turn in, thats where you came in at the track with advice to drop the front forks thru 3mm which was bang on for turn in. (cheers :2thumbsup)I later raised the rear shock height a bit more as well to hold line a bit better on exit.

It really is an ongoing progression and you can get quicker and need more adjustments, thats where the knowledge of suspension setup is crucial, you really need to work through the settings to see what they do and so you can give good feedback. Next season when I set up a bike for racing it will have good undercarriage from the start and will definitely work with a suspension tech for a practice day at a track to dial in a good trackside base line setting.

The suspension components cost me alot actually, but your right the adjustments cost nothing and its the knowledge of setup and what you do with them that counts. :beer:

[Robert Taylor]

Yep what happened was the front forks were bottoming and an increase in oil level height didnt solve it so a 9.5 rate spring was fitted in place of a 9.0 so it slowed the turn in, thats where you came in at the track with advice to drop the front forks thru 3mm which was bang on for turn in. (cheers :2thumbsup)I later raised the rear shock height a bit more as well to hold line a bit better on exit.

It really is an ongoing progression and you can get quicker and need more adjustments, thats where the knowledge of suspension setup is crucial, you really need to work through the settings to see what they do and so you can give good feedback. Next season when I set up a bike for racing it will have good undercarriage from the start and will definitely work with a suspension tech for a practice day at a track to dial in a good trackside base line setting.

The suspension components cost me alot actually, but your right the adjustments cost nothing and its the knowledge of setup and what you do with them that counts. :beer:

In the States ( for example ) trackside backup with Ohlins and a number of other products is generally poor. Here in NZ we offer backup that is light years ahead and I think a lot of people dont realise that it is very much not the norm around the world, and that in other countries you pay and keep paying for every little bit of trackside assistance. But the point is, irrespective of what top line components you have you will not get the optimum performance unless knowledgable backup exists and not only trackside. Is it a product that the onseller specialises in or does it come out of a warehouse as just one of many commodities with limited or no backup? Etc etc
With any shock irrespective of external adjustments the window of setting for optimum performance is in fact very fine. A setting that you have ended up with on a certain track is not guaranteed to work just as well at another. If the external setting runs out of range ( and they do with any shock ) is there a qualified and experienced tech on hand to revalve it if neccessary ?( the shock that doesnt need revalving is a myth )
Also what works well in the middle of a cold winter series is going to be a wobbly jelly on a hot day in the middle of the summer nats.
The bigger the engine and the more sensitive its chassis the more critical set up becomes. Also what works for one rider doesnt work for another.
What we do here is a relative walk in the park. In January I was contracted to Ohlins for 4 days to assist with Phillip Island pre season Superbike tests. Four full on 15 hour days. The 2 bike Supersport 600 team I was responsible for had 6 spare shocks and 6 spare fork sets, fitted with gas charged cartridges. Boxes and boxes of spare fork and shock springs. These I had apart relentlessly over the 4 days so alternative and sometimes very incremental settings could be tested. This was specific to Phillip Island, the settings would be different at the next track and so on.
Here in NZ its very often a case of ''if I have to buy one spare spring its like having my throat cut'' I know that sounds cynical but its all about having the tools to do the job and learning by it all the time.

[FROSTY]

I just watched "Top Gear" on TV I know its a car program but the point is relevant here I think.
A Quality sports car was set up suspension wise to suit the TRACK driving style of a RACE driver.Stiff and bordering on twitchy on the track.
A normal road driver took it on the road for a drive and it was scarey to drive.
It was set up for road driving and was too soft for the track

[Robert Taylor]

I just watched "Top Gear" on TV I know its a car program but the point is relevant here I think.
A Quality sports car was set up suspension wise to suit the TRACK driving style of a RACE driver.Stiff and bordering on twitchy on the track.
A normal road driver took it on the road for a drive and it was scarey to drive.
It was set up for road driving and was too soft for the track

Also, as a novice racer gets progressively faster they require firmer and firmer settings, this is a classic scenario.

[roogazza]

Also, as a novice racer gets progressively faster they require firmer and firmer settings, this is a classic scenario.

I'm going the other way, in that I prefer it softer , does this mean that I'm getting slower ?? !!!! oh shit !

At our age the firmer settings occur less often , correct Robert ? G.

[Robert Taylor]

I'm going the other way, in that I prefer it softer , does this mean that I'm getting slower ?? !!!! oh shit !

At our age the firmer settings occur less often , correct Robert ? G.

Yes, and its over-rated anyway.