Legalise Crystal Meth?

[doc]

Coming from a socialist, you're a vaginal wart.
Aaron has some cream left from his last experience. Just send him a PM he likes to be discrete about these matters. Just don't mention you heard it on KB'r.

[Steam]

Look, Doc and Disco Dan, there's only one way to settle this:

One of you dress up as David Cunliffe, the other one pretend to be the chairman of the Hawkes Bay DHB, then you can both insult each other via the media for weeks and finally settle it with scalpels at dawn.

[Mikkel]

What a remarkable degradation in interesting content! :(

[skidMark]

The origional poster got no infraction.

Strange.

[skidMark]

Oh and doc and disco, handbags at 10 paces ladies.

[skidMark]

Coming from a socialist, you're a vaginal wart.

If you grow a little bigger you can be one too!

[Disco Dan]

[QUOTE=Disco Dan;1441268]

October is the start of exams. Starting in August means semister has pretty much finished 2008 hasn't started. Autistic spectrum disorder is a developmental problem not a mental health issue as you describe it. Your credibility remains low, be honest. Good luck with your studies. And you have teaching experience in what ???? The consumer doesn't want to know what you think you are capable of , they want evidence.

Again, August was only ever the date of bankruptcy..... late night huh? :cool:

Yes I am fully aware of that, the majority of my experience is in intellectual disabilities. Same ball park. Teaching? well as I have allready said, I was a teachers aide at two special needs schools for a few years before going to teachers college... did not finish, changing my mind after disagreeing with what was being said and starting on the MH path last year.

Would have been flipping easier to have just asked to see my cv dude.... :blink:

im still trying to work out what this has to do with P ...but meh.

[RiderInBlack]

Yawn, Have just waded through 3 pages of Doc and Disco Dan bitch slapping each other:girlfight: Can we get back to the topic (what ever that was):Playnice:
PS: I'll trust life experience over Degrees any day.

[SixPackBack]

Yeah, that part of the culture that says we have to deal with 'the public' and it's miriad of mental, physical and financial woes.....


The sludge-trap for society, that's us.


Bitch of a job scumdog, but I would bet highly interesting at times, and exceptionally satisfying catching the real bad boys.

Getting back to the subject. Riderinblack has assured us that medical help is available to those that seek it, but within a frame work of unlawfulness.
I.E. should an individual take it upon themselves to seek help from a Doctor [for example] salvation maybe close at hand. Conversely should their first contact be with the Police ['turn out your pockets Sir'] they will be thrown in jail. Totally illogical manner of dealing with the issue??........why not give those individuals caught by the Police a medical to ascertain IF a problem exists and then let the medical profession deal with it.
True addicts/abusers should [under the absence of related 'supporting crime/s] be sent to dry out in a medical establishment NOT incarcerated in jail.

Would make your job easier scumdog?

[SixPackBack]

Yawn, Have just waded through 3 pages of Doc and Disco Dan bitch slapping each other:girlfight: Can we get back to the topic (what ever that was):Playnice:
PS: I'll trust life experience over Degrees any day.

Agreed. Please guys lets not see this thrown in P.D.

[doc]

Agreed. Please guys lets not see this thrown in P.D.

Yep sorry about that. Back to the subject.

Those who pick up the piecies from this crap, will never understand why people would even want to raise the issue of legalising it.

[flyingcrocodile46]

These two do not have benign effects compared to toher substances. The amount of people in psych units due to cannabis induced psychosis is staggering. Research in the UK by doctors has found that the psychological affects of weed and cannavis are far worse than other drugs.

Post proof please.

Thanks

[flyingcrocodile46]

As a previous heavy user of Cannabis I can attest to the validity of this post.

At the height of my usage well over 20grams a week was consumed,]

Thousands of fellow Kiwi's face the same dilemma under current law.

I can also quote the same current and long term consumption figures, and can boast similar academic achievements without quiting.

When not available, I have never experienced negative symptoms (but have over tobacco) and other substances I have used such as alcohol, have had a visibly negative impact on those around me (and impaired my own judgment).

As for the "thousands of fellow kiwis" that you lump in with your own experiences, how many of them have personally told you that they have had the same experiences?.. As I don't believe that statement has any scientifically factual basis in application to weed over alcohol or tobacco.

It isn't my intention to take the piss, but my own experiences are completely reversed from yours, and I think it is wrong to lump everyone in the same category without factual basis.... Different strokes and all that.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Meth is only a problem when abused...fact.


Funny!... the wife tells me the same thing about herself.. LOL

[flyingcrocodile46]

FFS back to planet earth.Were you ever a teenager?Did you ever want to try everything you could get your hands on and fuck the warnings?Make it easier to get and get more addicts I say.


Well said.

I don't agree with the basis that some in the thread are using to push their views forward regarding the negative aspects of drugs (especially weed).

BUT

Your very simple statement is an undeniable truth that MUST be acknowledged and should be the number one reason why it would be societal suicide to legalize drugs.

Many people... (especially the young and inexperienced), suffer from a distinct lack of common dog fuck and simply do not have the ability to exercise self control.

[SixPackBack]

[quote=flyingcrocodile46;1441703]I can also quote the same current and long term consumption figures, and can boast similar academic achievements without quiting.

I call bullshit. If you smoke 20 gramms a week and have been for a long time either you were very smart to begin with or the drugs are deluding you.


As for the "thousands of fellow kiwis" that you lump in with your own experiences, how many of them have personally told you that they have had the same experiences?.. As I don't believe that statement has any scientifically factual basis in application to weed over alcohol or tobacco.

You have taken my statement out of context


I am extremely sceptical of you persona and intentions flyingcrocodile46. A few posts and you show a famililarity that can only come from long term KB exposure?.....an alter ego...a cop?

[Edbear]

Bitch of a job scumdog, but I would bet highly interesting at times, and exceptionally satisfying catching the real bad boys.

Getting back to the subject. Riderinblack has assured us that medical help is available to those that seek it, but within a frame work of unlawfulness.
I.E. should an individual take it upon themselves to seek help from a Doctor [for example] salvation maybe close at hand. Conversely should their first contact be with the Police ['turn out your pockets Sir'] they will be thrown in jail. Totally illogical manner of dealing with the issue??........why not give those individuals caught by the Police a medical to ascertain IF a problem exists and then let the medical profession deal with it.
True addicts/abusers should [under the absence of related 'supporting crime/s] be sent to dry out in a medical establishment NOT incarcerated in jail.

Would make your job easier scumdog?


Valid points, SPB. If the authorities were serious, it would be mandatory to undergo rehab for drug/alcohol abuse if charged and convicted of such an offence. There could be some leeway for first offenders re: having a conviction on their record if they voluntarily agree to rehab.

I believe in giving someone a fair go and a chance. However recidivist offenders who don't care or want to get help, get little sympathy. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, an addict first needs to appreciate their problem and want to do something about it.

It is also a resource issue as helping someone with a drug addiction is not done in a week, it's a long term commitment.

[flyingcrocodile46]

[quote=flyingcrocodile46;1441703]I can also quote the same current and long term consumption figures, and can boast similar academic achievements without quiting.

I call bullshit. If you smoke 20 gramms a week and have been for a long time either you were very smart to begin with or the drugs are deluding you.


As for the "thousands of fellow kiwis" that you lump in with your own experiences, how many of them have personally told you that they have had the same experiences?.. As I don't believe that statement has any scientifically factual basis in application to weed over alcohol or tobacco.

You have taken my statement out of context


I am extremely sceptical of you persona and intentions flyingcrocodile46. A few posts and you show a famililarity that can only come from long term KB exposure?.....an alter ego...a cop?

I wouldn't claim to be very smart before, after or during, but I do know that even if I chain smoke a couple or three high quality joints (and get the usual mellow glow... which I can also feel from lower quality weed), If I have to get on with a complex task (such as trigonometry calcs to establish cut angles and lengths on all the components of a roof truss) my mellow euphoria will be completely gone within 15 to 30 minutes. As I say... "different strokes" we have different body chemistry. We can't all suffer from Bipolar disorder.

My persona is real. I am a newbie here, but have been an active interwobble abuser for close on to 10 years.

Sorry if I have ruffled feathers dude... Bottom line is my motivation for posting is the same as everyone else's. Just expressing my views. :sunny:

[SixPackBack]

I believe in giving someone a fair go and a chance. However recidivist offenders who don't care or want to get help, get little sympathy. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, an addict first needs to appreciate their problem and want to do something about it.

My personal journey has highlighted how awsome life can be with a straight head. Re teaching that to addicts and showing them how much more responsive their family will be, how much more money they have in their pockets, how easy it is to get up in the morning....mate that goes a long way to having them back with us.
John Kirwin's ad on the tellie really struck a chord the other night. "its the little things".......how true that is.

It is also a resource issue as helping someone with a drug addiction is not done in a week, it's a long term commitment.

True. The resource is side shifted from the corrections department. External and on going support is the key. Progresivly longer stays within a 'health camp' would be as big a stick as prison without the lingering side effects. Its important to note this help would/could be for abusers and not users, together with a list of safe use levels this type of system would be a revelation I beleive.

[SixPackBack]

[quote=SixPackBack;1441728]

I wouldn't claim to be very smart before, after or during, but I do know that even if I chain smoke a couple or three high quality joints (and get the usual mellow glow... which I can also feel from lower quality weed), If I have to get on with a complex task (such as trigonometry calcs to establish cut angles and lengths on all the components of a roof truss) my mellow euphoria will be completely gone within 15 to 30 minutes. As I say... "different strokes" we have different body chemistry. We can't all suffer from Bipolar disorder.

My persona is real. I am a newbie here, but have been an active interwobble abuser for close on to 10 years.

Sorry if I have ruffled feathers dude... Bottom line is my motivation for posting is the same as everyone else's. Just expressing my views. :sunny:

Cool mate, your veiws are welcome.

[DMNTD]

As I say... "different strokes" we have different body chemistry.

Bang on...I know people that get highly motivated after smoking a joint,I for one just zone out.
I gave up smoking weed socially 7 or 8 years ago simply because it didn't "suit me" but love the smell of a decent joint :drool:

[scumdog]

True. The resource is side shifted from the corrections department. External and on going support is the key. Progresivly longer stays within a 'health camp' would be as big a stick as prison without the lingering side effects. Its important to note this help would/could be for abusers and not users, together with a list of safe use levels this type of system would be a revelation I beleive.

You're possibly right but with my A Grade degree in cynicism I tend to think "Mehh, educate them re drugs, abuse and problems associated with drug use and abuse - and if they go ahead and use/abuse the stuff and end up in the shit? -then bugger the 'External and on going support' - they got themselves into it - they can sort it out themselves and get themselves out of it".

Different strokes for different folks again..

[Disco Dan]

You're possibly right but with my A Grade degree in cynicism I tend to think "Mehh, educate them re drugs, abuse and problems associated with drug use and abuse - and if they go ahead and use/abuse the stuff and end up in the shit? -then bugger the 'External and on going support' - they got themselves into it - they can sort it out themselves and get themselves out of it".

Different strokes for different folks again..

I certainly agree with that.. but what would happen to those folks who choose to ignore the education and get themselves into a pickle?

Wouldn't it then fall to the tax payer in prison time/state rehab???

[Edbear]

You're possibly right but with my A Grade degree in cynicism I tend to think "Mehh, educate them re drugs, abuse and problems associated with drug use and abuse - and if they go ahead and use/abuse the stuff and end up in the shit? -then bugger the 'External and on going support' - they got themselves into it - they can sort it out themselves and get themselves out of it".

Different strokes for different folks again..


I guess it's a case for, "walk a mile in my shoes". Law enforcement, the hospitals and those who care for addicts see the worst of society and the worst effects of drugs and alcohol. Not surprisingly they can get rather cynical.

It would be recommended that anyone who wants to know the effects should go along with the Police and see for themselves the crap they have to deal with on a daily basis, or visit a rehab centre, talk to Women's Refuge, hang around the ambulance bay at a hospital on a Saturday night...

I've seen both sides of it in a limited way, from having to deal with the unpredictable violence and subterfuge of an addict and the effect on my family as the target of his violence, chiefly my daughter, (the Police were amazing, empathetic and proactive!), to being addicted to prescription painkillers myself and the nightmare 5 year battle I had. I know how hard it is to get off them and it's an experience I'd hate to see anyone go through.

There will always be those who claim to be relatively unaffected, just as there are those in their 80's who have smoked all their lives and haven't got cancer. However they will always remain a minority. In my experience, (mainly in forestry gangs back in the '70's), when dope was freely available and smoked everywhere, every person I worked with using it was a dipstick! One was so brain dead he'd hardly know what day it was! I never found one person smoking dope that was the slightest bit academic or interested in their future beyond the next weekend when they boasted about how many chicks they were going to root and how much beer they were going to drink and how much dope they were going to smoke. That's after boasting about how much they did the weekend before...

I've met and worked with all strata's from millionnaires to paupers and the key difference is the attitude of each. When looking at the person and listening to them it is plainly obvious why each is of that class.

[P38]

Should methamphetamine (P) be legalised?
reasons for and against please?

Idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[carver]

Idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nice reason

you have really thought that one through

[scumdog]

nice reason

you have really thought that one through

Yes, it's obvious you didn't fool HIM!!:dodge:

[jrandom]

Bang on...I know people that get highly motivated after smoking a joint,I for one just zone out.

Mm, yes. Personally, I find that I can be creative when stoned, but I tend to just grow hugely intellectually lazy. I don't smoke weed when I know I have stuff to do later in the day.

Those who've been around me when I'm baked and they're not describe me as growing apparently simpler, using shorter words, and disappearing into my own quiet little world.

I find it more enjoyable and useful as an emotionally-balancing form of recreation than drinking alcohol, but it's certainly not something I could operate on a daily basis with!

I would also point out that I wouldn't consider flyingcrocodile's example of doing trig to work out roof truss lengths and cut angles to be the sort of effort that's difficult to undertake stoned. Relatively straightforward, single-level tasks like that don't present much difficulty. What I find I have trouble with is complex, multi-layered, intersecting matters that involve keeping different things balanced in my mind at the same time and modelling their interaction.

Unfortunately, as a programmer, almost all of my paying work requires such activity, rather than a straightforward one-at-a-time approach to tasks, so I don't have the luxury of being able to remain productive under the influence of cannabis.

Certainly weed seems to affect different people in very different ways. A friend of mine is a regular tobacco smoker, but can't smoke cannabis at all; it makes her nauseous. Another girl I once knew couldn't smoke weed without growing horribly paranoid and human-interaction-averse (didn't stop her from smoking, though, beats me why). I know a guy who gets really, really foul-mouthed when he's baked, and another one who won't let me play Dark Side of the Moon because it scares him.

It doesn't surprise me at all when I hear that folk who are of unsound mind to start with descend into schizophrenia and delusional paranoia under the influence.

I believe responsible law-abiding adults should be allowed to put whatever they wish into their bodies, but all psychoactive substances deserve respect and research before being used recreationally. It's unfortunate that the average drug user tends to fall short of that bar.

[Edbear]

... What I find I have trouble with is complex, multi-layered, intersecting matters that involve keeping different things balanced in my mind at the same time and modelling their interaction..


Umm! Yeah, me too...:yes:

[SixPackBack]

One network news tonight.

Alcohol as bad as drugs say experts
<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = EXSL /><EXSL:STRING xmlns:exsl="http://exslt.org/common">Feb 23, 2008 7:07 PM</EXSL:STRING>
New Zealand's drug laws are under review and international experts are challenging the government to make changes based on fact not fear.

Delegates at a top level conference gathering in New Zealand this week have criticised the country's laws saying they criminalise recreational users while making the most dangerous drug - alcohol - easily accessible to the young.
"In this research we found that alcohol...thats ethanol has around about the same dangerousness to public health as fantasy," says Dr Doug Sellman, a drugs researcher.
The forum says its irrational for the government to toughen up drug laws without considering New Zealand's biggest killers, which are cigarettes and liquor.
"If someone was to invent alcohol today and we didnt have it we would be very concerned about its dangers and would probably classify it as a class B drug," says Professor David Nutt, an international drug expert.
Ex heroin junkie and now head of the Drugs Foundation says the booze pedlers have big bucks and power.
"Industry of that size always has hugely powerful lobbyists...there are people involved talking to government all the time," says Tim Harding, the New Zealand Drugs Foundation Chair.
Despite the warnings the government says alcohol will not be banned anytime soon
"Alcohol and tobacco have their own acts of parliament surrounding their use and availability," says Jim Anderton, the Associate Health Minister
But even the experts admit that drafting a drug policy is tough
"Every government struggles with how best to classify a drug...theres alot of conflicting evidence," says Michel Peron, a Drug Policy campaigner.
But even evidence isn't enough with more than a 1000 New Zealanders being killed every year from alcohol related illnesses.
The experts say the fact alcohol is still accessible and acceptable is sobering.

Soothsayers from this thread will continue to bury their collective heads, in spite of international drug experts assertions our current laws are, well, pretty fucked up really.
Flame away!:Punk:

[Grahameeboy]

One network news tonight.

Alcohol as bad as drugs say experts
<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = EXSL /><EXSL:STRING xmlns:exsl="http://exslt.org/common">Feb 23, 2008 7:07 PM</EXSL:STRING>
New Zealand's drug laws are under review and international experts are challenging the government to make changes based on fact not fear.

Delegates at a top level conference gathering in New Zealand this week have criticised the country's laws saying they criminalise recreational users while making the most dangerous drug - alcohol - easily accessible to the young.
"In this research we found that alcohol...thats ethanol has around about the same dangerousness to public health as fantasy," says Dr Doug Sellman, a drugs researcher.
The forum says its irrational for the government to toughen up drug laws without considering New Zealand's biggest killers, which are cigarettes and liquor.
"If someone was to invent alcohol today and we didnt have it we would be very concerned about its dangers and would probably classify it as a class B drug," says Professor David Nutt, an international drug expert.
Ex heroin junkie and now head of the Drugs Foundation says the booze pedlers have big bucks and power.
"Industry of that size always has hugely powerful lobbyists...there are people involved talking to government all the time," says Tim Harding, the New Zealand Drugs Foundation Chair.
Despite the warnings the government says alcohol will not be banned anytime soon
"Alcohol and tobacco have their own acts of parliament surrounding their use and availability," says Jim Anderton, the Associate Health Minister
But even the experts admit that drafting a drug policy is tough
"Every government struggles with how best to classify a drug...theres alot of conflicting evidence," says Michel Peron, a Drug Policy campaigner.
But even evidence isn't enough with more than a 1000 New Zealanders being killed every year from alcohol related illnesses.
The experts say the fact alcohol is still accessible and acceptable is sobering.

Soothsayers from this thread will continue to bury their collective heads, in spite of international drug experts assertions our current laws are, well, pretty fucked up really.
Flame away!:Punk:

Yep, crazy world eh.

Nicotine is not good either...like you say more people die or end up with either mental or physical issues due to alcohol and smoking yet how do these figures compare with illgeal drug users.

One person OD's on 'P'...front page news..."she was such a sweet girl, good at her grades..."...something has to be done to stop this...

Guy dies from ill health due to smoking...back page news in the 'Deaths' column.

It's a funny old world.

[MIXONE]

One network news tonight.

Alcohol as bad as drugs say experts
The experts say the fact alcohol is still accessible and acceptable is sobering.
[/FONT]

I must be doing something wrong.Every time I access alcohol I get pissed not sober.:eek5:

[DMNTD]

I never found one person smoking dope that was the slightest bit academic or interested in their future beyond the next weekend when they boasted about how many chicks they were going to root and how much beer they were going to drink and how much dope they were going to smoke....

Well I guess you only knew some really thick buggers then sir.
Could intro you to a number of dope smokers with relatively high IQ's that hold down high paid jobs and don't talk about their sexual conquests infact I doubt that most if anyone would be able to tell that they are smokers.
Lots of grey area that most don't know about and the Police don't have to deal with regularly

[Disco Dan]

Well I guess you only knew some really thick buggers then sir.
Could intro you to a number of dope smokers with relatively high IQ's that hold down high paid jobs and don't talk about their sexual conquests infact I doubt that most if anyone would be able to tell that they are smokers.
Lots of grey area that most don't know about and the Police don't have to deal with regularly

+1 I could list a rather shocking list of people in several industries that have high paid jobs, are very well educated and are regular pot smokers.

Isn't that where 'eccentric' came from :whistle:

[Zuki Bandit]

Youv'e all seen the horror stories of meth!!!

[flyingcrocodile46]

Mm, yes. Personally, I find that I can be creative when stoned, but I tend to just grow hugely intellectually lazy. I don't smoke weed when I know I have stuff to do later in the day.
Those who've been around me when I'm baked and they're not describe me as growing apparently simpler, using shorter words, and disappearing into my own quiet little world.


Funny... ppl (even close friends) can't even tell when I've been smoking... perhaps your body chemistry is different to mine???.... Nah!.. couldn't be.



I find it more enjoyable and useful as an emotionally-balancing form of recreation than drinking alcohol, but it's certainly not something I could operate on a daily basis with!


I would never recommend that someone who has trouble with their emotions, should use weed... that's how bipolar or schizoids get fucked up.



I would also point out that I wouldn't consider flyingcrocodile's example of doing trig to work out roof truss lengths and cut angles to be the sort of effort that's difficult to undertake stoned. Relatively straightforward, single-level tasks like that don't present much difficulty. What I find I have trouble with is complex, multi-layered, intersecting matters that involve keeping different things balanced in my mind at the same time and modelling their interaction.


:gob: ... you obviously didn't read what you typed up above dude... cause you appear to be contradicting yourself big time. Kinda makes me suspect that you don't actually know what's involved in the exercise ("single level" - my arse, especially if (as you say) ppl assess you as simpler and withdrawn when stoned and you claim that "it's certainly not something I could operate on a daily basis with!". Lol... Nice troll dude.




Unfortunately, as a programmer, almost all of my paying work requires such activity, rather than a straightforward one-at-a-time approach to tasks, so I don't have the luxury of being able to remain productive under the influence of cannabis.


LMAO... are you under the influence now..?.. or is it just too much Tui's?



I believe responsible law-abiding adults should be allowed to put whatever they wish into their bodies, but all psychoactive substances deserve respect and research before being used recreationally. It's unfortunate that the average drug user tends to fall short of that bar.
:first:

Keep on toking dude... don't you listen to those head shrinks.. Lol

[jrandom]

LMAO... are you under the influence now..?.. or is it just too much Tui's?

You seem kinda angry about something.

:sherlock:

I wasn't trolling, you know, and yes, in my opinion, working out angles and lengths of roof trusses isn't a complicated job. No offense meant to your profession, Mr Builder Man. As I read it, we both commented that the same thing presented us little difficulty when stoned, and I expanded my comments to describe stuff that I did have difficulty with. Where's the aggravation in that?

And as far as your affect not changing under the influence goes, maybe you just ain't smokin' good enough shit.

:2thumbsup

Want some brownies next time I make a batch?

[SixPackBack]

Its surprising to me that individuals abilities, perceptions and attitudes are affected so differently.

Until reading this thread the impression has always been that most ofus had a similar experience. Clearly this is not so.

Even more reason for the drug issue to be controlled by the medical profession. This is far to complex an issue for the Police to deal with or the gubermunt to 'lump' users into the same category.

[flyingcrocodile46]

And as far as your affect not changing under the influence goes, maybe you just ain't smokin' good enough shit.:2thumbsup

Want some brownies next time I make a batch?

LoL... A bake off challenge.... Sounds like it's time to get my Pound cake recipe out.:hug:

[rickjames]

I think not.

The system does not work, is based on American law and order and is ready for change. I advocate complete legalisation of all drugs and compounds not to please the druggies, but to highlight those that need help and


""""" cannot come forward at the moment for fear of prison time."""""""

Drug addiction is a medical issue NOT a law and order issue

Extremely uneducated paranoic non true bull shit reason for drugs to be legalised. Stoner yabber. I thought you were clean...

I'm all for legalising but dont expect to be taken seriously with bull shit reasons. Freedom of choice is mine.

Millions an millions of dollars each year of your taxes goes to helping those who have issues with drugs or people they / drugs affect.

Come one man! Theres signwritten / labelled / in the phone book clinics sponsored by DHB's every where in wellington.

Are you accusing them of sharing privilged information with police? It would a be illegal unless someone was going to die, and inadmissable in court.

Stop being a paranoid (ex)stoner

[SixPackBack]

Extremely uneducated paranoic non true bull shit reason for drugs to be legalised. Stoner yabber. I thought you were clean...

Untrue on all accounts rickjames. Firstly our system is based very heavily on the American system, secondly it does not work as can be attested by experts far more educated than you and I [if you had bothered to read the entire thread..look here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1442454&postcount=280)]
I am clean and really could not care less what you or any one else on here thinks.

I'm all for legalising but dont expect to be taken seriously with bull shit reasons. Freedom of choice is mine.

Gosh really in depth reasoning, we can see you have covered all the angles.

Millions an millions of dollars each year of your taxes goes to helping those who have issues with drugs or people they / drugs affect.

True and many of those millions goes to the Police/courts and corrections. Like I pointed out previously, had you bothered to read the entire thread advocacy of redistribution of said millions to the health department [where the money belongs] is the only logical progression current drug laws can make.



Your first post rickjames wasted leading a personal attack. Come again:sunny:

[scumdog]

One network news tonight.

Alcohol as bad as drugs say experts
<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = EXSL /><EXSL:STRING xmlns:exsl="http://exslt.org/common">Feb 23, 2008 7:07 PM</EXSL:STRING>
New Zealand's drug laws are under review and international experts are challenging the government to make changes based on fact not fear.

Delegates at a top level conference Flame away!:Punk:

"Top level conference" - WTF is that?

"The forum says" - what forum, KB? agh!

"Doug Sellman, a drug researcher" - HOW does he research drugs?

"Professor David Nutt an international drug expert" Mwhahaha! what qualifications does HE have?

I like the last comment the '....and acceptable is very sobering' bit, good pun.

[Ixion]

Its surprising to me that individuals abilities, perceptions and attitudes are affected so differently.

Until reading this thread the impression has always been that most ofus had a similar experience. Clearly this is not so.

Even more reason for the drug issue to be controlled by the medical profession. This is far to complex an issue for the Police to deal with or the gubermunt to 'lump' users into the same category.

I can't speak for P, I've never tried it, and don't intend to.

But I do know , that when I tried tobacco and maruijana, years ago, neither of them did anything whatsoever to or for me. While others smoked the weed and went all spaced out, I sat there thinking "OK, what's this supposed to do then". Gave up trying after a few attempts, waste of time. yet I know other people would go off to lala land after a single puff.

Similarly tobacco, never did anything whatsoever, might as well have hung over a garden bonfire. Stopped after a month or so, no effects the either.

So those two do differ from person to person

And we all know that some folk can knock the booze back in vast quantities , and never show a sign of it, whilst others are tiddley on half a glass of wine.

[inlinefour]

Anyone who thinks it would be a good idea to legalise this shit is a moron (not mormon :pinch:) or is wanting to get a easier, cheaper, quality supply for his/her personal habit.
Scumdog and the such have no doubt seen the ugly side of drugs and I can say that I have also from working in a inpatient psych ward.
On the subject of legalising cannabis. Anyone who is talking about medicinal use, I can say that I have had a couple of doctors say that they think I could seriously benefit from it. However, thankfully for me as I do not like what it does to my head, it must be injested and not inhaled. I do not know if it will ever become legal in NZ to be prescribed. If it was I suspect I'd give it a go as I know my liver would appreciate it alot more than the current lot of pills I take.
Carver, what on Earth was you thinking when you started this thread? I can't be arsed reading through the whole thing as I'm about to watch the first round of WSB and Corser has pole...

[carver]

Anyone who thinks it would be a good idea to legalise this shit is a moron (not mormon :pinch:) or is wanting to get a easier, cheaper, quality supply for his/her personal habit.
Scumdog and the such have no doubt seen the ugly side of drugs and I can say that I have also from working in a inpatient psych ward.
On the subject of legalising cannabis. Anyone who is talking about medicinal use, I can say that I have had a couple of doctors say that they think I could seriously benefit from it. However, thankfully for me as I do not like what it does to my head, it must be injested and not inhaled. I do not know if it will ever become legal in NZ to be prescribed. If it was I suspect I'd give it a go as I know my liver would appreciate it alot more than the current lot of pills I take.
Carver, what on Earth was you thinking when you started this thread? I can't be arsed reading through the whole thing as I'm about to watch the first round of WSB and Corser has pole...

WSB eh..
i just wanted to gauge the publics perception of drugs and to what extent the media influences it.
its also about what people see as a solution.

[SixPackBack]

Yeah still got my head in the sand

Oh dear scumdog. I fear regardless of what anyone says you will steadfastly remain uneducated.



Carver, what on Earth was you thinking when you started this thread? I can't be arsed reading through the whole thing as I'm about to watch the first round of WSB and Corser has pole...

You should get bothered inline, has been an illuminating thread, almost free from abuse [given the sensitivity of the topic]

[inlinefour]

Oh dear scumdog. I fear regardless of what anyone says you will steadfastly remain uneducated.



You should get bothered inline, has been an illuminating thread, almost free from abuse [given the sensitivity of the topic]

So remind me, what are we doing here again? :blink:

Meh, Supersport is now showing, maybe later...

[scumdog]

Oh dear scumdog. I fear regardless of what anyone says you will steadfastly remain uneducated.



You should get bothered inline, has been an illuminating thread, almost free from abuse [given the sensitivity of the topic]

Funny how I can't remember posting THAT on this thread - musta been drunk at the time or something...or is somebody abusing me???

[carver]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS]You should get bothered inline, has been an illuminating thread, almost free from abuse [given the sensitivity of the topic]

you should read some of my PM's and reps...
plenty of abuse here....
not that it bothers me

[SixPackBack]

Funny how I can't remember posting THAT on this thread - musta been drunk at the time or something...or is somebody abusing me???

Sorry scumdog if I have offended you. Don't stop posting. [please!]


you should read some of my PM's and reps...
plenty of abuse here....
not that it bothers me

1 negative rep,19 positive reps and 2 abusive PM's. Thats my score so far.
Abusive PM's are from people who have not read the whole thread. [And are very possibly alter ego's]

[RiderInBlack]

Oh dear scumdog. I fear regardless of what anyone says you will steadfastly remain uneducated.Are you sure about that SPB? Know ya piss taking, but just because someone does not agree with you, doesn't mean they a less educated on the subject. It could be that they are more so.
By the way, I am sure you have more experience with drugs (and that doesn't mean taking them) than I do, but that may not be true for others debating here.

[SixPackBack]

Are you sure about that SPB? Know ya piss taking, but just because someone does not agree with you, doesn't mean they a less educated on the subject. It could be that they are more so.
By the way, I am sure you have more experience with drugs (and that doesn't mean taking them) than I do, but that may not be true for others debating here.

Agreed. Will revisit scumdog's post tonight [when I have time], and try to keep an open mind.

[P38]

Idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone like to explain to me how this comment I posted could be considered abusive?

[Steam]

Anyone like to explain to me how this comment I posted is abusive?
oh my god.




you're serious, aren't you.

You total idiot.




See? Explained. :yes:

[zooter]

I can't be arsed to read the whole thread to see for myself if I think anyone is actually crazy enough to be serious about legalising P. On the offchance that Steam is correct, OMFG, fagdedaboudit.

[P38]

oh my god.




you're serious, aren't you.

You total idiot.




See? Explained. :yes:

Hahahaha:niceone:

Thats not abuse, more like Takin the Piss or an attempt at Mockery.

Thanks for your response though.

[SixPackBack]

"Top level conference" - WTF is that?

One that includes international experts and the associate minister for health, Jim Anderton.

"Doug Sellman, a drug researcher" - HOW does he research drugs?


Professor Doug Sellman (Director) MBChB PhD FRANZCP FAChAM
Doug graduated MBChB from the University of Otago in 1980 and then completed postgraduate training in psychiatry in Christchurch, New Zealand, gaining his FRANZCP in 1987. He was appointed as Senior Lecturer in the Department of Psychological Medicine at the Christchurch School of Medicine in 1991 and research subsequently led to the completion of a PhD under the supervision of Professor Peter Joyce on the topic of "Alcoholic Relapse", in 1997. He was promoted to a Personal Chair in Psychiatry and Addiction Medicine in 2005 and was a foundation member of the Australasian Chapter of Addiction Medicine in 2002.
He took a leading role in the successful tendering for the National Addiction Centre (formerly known as the National Centre for Treatment Development (Alcohol, Drugs & Addiction) and has been Director of the Centre from its outset in 1996.
Collaborating with colleagues and supervising research students, he is currently involved in a full range of alcohol, drug and addiction related projects. Doug has been active in the development of alcohol and drug teaching at the Christchurch School of Medicine & Health Sciences over the past fifteen years. He developed a two-week inter-departmental block course for fifth-year medical students which has been running since 1995. He has also been instrumental in the development of a Postgraduate Diploma in Addiction & Co-existing Disorders through the University of Otago, which is now available nationally to a multidisciplinary group of students.
His clinical work since graduation as a psychiatrist in 1987 has been in the alcohol and drug area, and since 1994 he has been consultant to the alcohol and drug stream of the Youth Specialty Service in Christchurch, a specialist mental health service for people aged 13-18 years.
He is an enthusiastic member of the Harewood Golf Course in Christchurch and an active opponent of dieting, gym attendance and declaring war on anything.

Why not ask him scumdog? doug.sellman@otago.ac.nz. Looks well educated to me?

"Professor David Nutt an international drug expert" Mwhahaha! what qualifications does HE have?
Research

David Nutt heads the Psychopharmacology Unit in the Faculty of Medicine and Dentistry. The Unit integrates basic and clinical research to both study normal brain function, and to determine how it differs in psychiatric disorders such as clinical depression.
Experimental approaches range from receptor binding assays to collecting images of the human brain. The techniques in use include CT (Computerised Tomography), PET (Positron Emission Tomography) and SPECT (Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography).
PET is particularly useful in studying the effects of drugs and brain neurochemistry. Using different compounds, PET shows blood flow, oxygen and glucose metabolism, and the concentration of drugs or neurotransmitters. Blood flow and oxygen and glucose metabolism reflect the amount of brain activity in different regions, whilst determining the site and turnover of drugs and neurotransmitters gives insights into how they act in the brains of patients and in normal subjects.
David's particular areas of research focus on brain circuits and receptors in anxiety and addiction, and on the pharmacology of sleep.
This involves the study of GABA receptors, using labelled subtypes of GABA 5, and serotonin, or 5-HT, receptors. Type 1 5-HT receptors seem to be especially important in depression and the action of anti-depressants. Other projects underway investigate different aspects of anxiety, addiction and sleep.
Through its work, the Unit gains greater understanding of brain biology and how current treatments exert their effects. Based on these studies it is able to develop new drugs and treatment strategies, and the Unit is at the forefront in addressing how to combat conditions such as drug addiction and alcoholism. These and other disorders have major consequences for the individual and across the whole of society.



Current projects include:

GABA and 5-HT1A receptors in anxiety using PET
Dopamine and opiate receptors in addiction
Possible future projects and direction of research:

Stress regulation
Human models of anxiety


Diseases related to this field of research
Clinical depression, drug addiction, insomnia, anxiety and panic disorders, alcoholism, agoraphobia, social phobia


Processes and functions relevant to this work
Neurotransmission in the brain, sleep



Techniques in routine use
PET (Positron Emission Tomography) scanning, CO<SUB>2</SUB> challenge tests, Tryptophan depletion, challenge tests



Equipment in routine use
EEG (Electroencephalography), PET scanner, (Positron Emisssion Tomography), SPECT (Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography)

Top (http://www.bris.ac.uk/neuroscience/the_node/research/groups/pidetails/80#top) http://www.bris.ac.uk/neuroscience/the_node/images/bar450
Projects - (http://www.bris.ac.uk/neuroscience/the_node/research/groups/pidetails/80#projects)Diseases - (http://www.bris.ac.uk/neuroscience/the_node/research/groups/pidetails/80#diseases)Processes - (http://www.bris.ac.uk/neuroscience/the_node/research/groups/pidetails/80#processes)Techniques - (http://www.bris.ac.uk/neuroscience/the_node/research/groups/pidetails/80#techniques)Equipment - (http://www.bris.ac.uk/neuroscience/the_node/research/groups/pidetails/80#equipment)Funding - (http://www.bris.ac.uk/neuroscience/the_node/research/groups/pidetails/80#grants)Collaborations - (http://www.bris.ac.uk/neuroscience/the_node/research/groups/pidetails/80#collaborations)Teaching - (http://www.bris.ac.uk/neuroscience/the_node/research/groups/pidetails/80#teaching)Publications & further information (http://www.bris.ac.uk/neuroscience/the_node/research/groups/pidetails/80#further)
Top (http://www.bris.ac.uk/neuroscience/the_node/research/groups/pidetails/80#top) http://www.bris.ac.uk/neuroscience/the_node/images/bar450
Grants and funding

Wellcome Trust, Industry
Collaborations

The Division of Psychiatry (GENPOD project: GENetic Predictors Of Depression)
HW LINE
O&G (Theranostics)
Teaching

I teach on the MRC Psychology course, and lecture both nationally and internationally.
Top (http://www.bris.ac.uk/neuroscience/the_node/research/groups/pidetails/80#top) http://www.bris.ac.uk/neuroscience/the_node/images/bar450
Publications, recommended reading and further information

Recent selected references

Davies SJ, Lowry CA, Nutt DJ.
Panic and hypertension: brothers in arms through 5-HT?
J Psychopharmacol. 2007 Aug;21(6):563-6.
Williams TM, Daglish MR, Lingford-Hughes A, Taylor LG, Hammers A, Brooks DJ, Grasby P, Myles JS, Nutt DJ.
Brain opioid receptor binding in early abstinence from opioid dependence: positron emission tomography study.
Br J Psychiatry. 2007 Jul;191:63-9.
Bailey JE, Papadopoulos A, Lingford-Hughes A, Nutt DJ.
D-Cycloserine and performance under different states of anxiety in healthy volunteers.
Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2007 Sep;193(4):579-85.
Nutt DJ, Kessler RC, Alonso J, Benbow A, Lecrubier Y, Lepine JP, Mechanic D, Tylee A.
Consensus statement on the benefit to the community of ESEMeD (European Study of the Epidemiology of Mental Disorders) survey data on depression and anxiety.
J Clin Psychiatry. 2007;68 Suppl 2:42-8.
Robinson HM, Hood SD, Bell CJ, Nutt DJ.
Dopamine and social anxiety disorder.
Rev Bras Psiquiatr. 2006 Dec;28(4):263-4.
Kalueff AV, Nutt DJ.
Role of GABA in anxiety and depression.
Depress Anxiety. 2007;24(7):495-517. Review.
Nutt DJ, Fone K, Asherson P, Bramble D, Hill P, Matthews K, Morris KA, Santosh P, Sonuga-Barke E, Taylor E, Weiss M, Young S; British Association for Psychopharmacology.
Evidence-based guidelines for management of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder in adolescents in transition to adult services and in adults: recommendations from the British Association for Psychopharmacology.
J Psychopharmacol. 2007 Jan;21(1):10-41.
Nutt DJ, Stein DJ.
Understanding the neurobiology of comorbidity in anxiety disorders.
CNS Spectr. 2006 Oct;11(10 Suppl 12): Please find further details of our research at the


Not much by the look of it!:cool:



It looks like these guys really know their stuff, far better educated than the average KB user?

[rickjames]

It looks like these guys really know their stuff, far better educated than the average KB user?

For sure.

Personal attacks? Get off the paranoia train at drug fucked station 5 years ago?

Do you believe NZ / the world would be a better place if A+ drugs (meth crack etc) were legal and freely available to those 18+?

Do you believe becuase your brother in law (irrelevant who) died from a two year binge on meth an the fact you illogically and paranoically feared prison from seeking help after smoking heavily for a long time justifies a law change?

I've read the thread, Ive educated myself, done 100's of hours of research in observing addicts at home, in mental hospitals, and not so much but reading other peoples evidence based studies and in no way will legallising it help these people. It wont make help easier to get, help is already there, its FREE AND NO RISK OF GOING TO JAIL. It wont make it cheaper.

Those who smoke recreationly will get on as they currently do. The laws are at a balance. Arguing that tobacco and alcohol being legal yet lethal also doesnt justify legallising A class. NZ laws aren't so much "americanised" they are fairly lax in comparison.

[SixPackBack]

For sure.

Personal attacks? Get off the paranoia train at drug fucked station 5 years ago?

Do you believe NZ / the world would be a better place if A+ drugs (meth crack etc) were legal and freely available to those 18+?

Do you believe becuase your brother in law (irrelevant who) died from a two year binge on meth an the fact you illogically and paranoically feared prison from seeking help after smoking heavily for a long time justifies a law change?

I've read the thread, Ive educated myself, done 100's of hours of research in observing addicts at home, in mental hospitals, and not so much but reading other peoples evidence based studies and in no way will legallising it help these people. It wont make help easier to get, help is already there, its FREE AND NO RISK OF GOING TO JAIL. It wont make it cheaper.

Those who smoke recreationly will get on as they currently do. The laws are at a balance. Arguing that tobacco and alcohol being legal yet lethal also doesnt justify legallising A class. NZ laws aren't so much "americanised" they are fairly lax in comparison.


Talk is cheap rickjames. Halt the border line abusive posts and lets see your research.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Talk is cheap rickjames. Halt the border line abusive posts and lets see your research.


Research Suit 'On'

http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/74/61204874_full.jpg

[SixPackBack]

It looks like these guys really know their stuff, far better educated than the average KB user?

Not game to reply scumdog?

[scumdog]

Not game to reply scumdog?
No, not on a thread where people quote themselves.

Besides I ain't an 'average' KB user.

[jonbuoy]

Bleah such an "ugly" drug.

[twotyred]

Just for info; BMC(British Medical Council) did a two year study on the top twenty most destructive drugs in use in the UK ...
number 1 was,unsurprisingly,Heroin... where was Meth?...... number 9,one position BEHIND nicotine.

Guess what was number 5... alcohol

and where did BZP party pills rate?,the latest great satan of those that would control YOUR bodies and what you put in them???... didn't even make the top 20......

It's wonderful living in a free,informed society...

[DMNTD]

Just for info; BMC(British Medical Council) did a two year study on the top twenty most destructive drugs in use in the UK ...
number 1 was,unsurprisingly,Heroin... where was Meth?...... number 9,one position BEHIND nicotine.

Guess what was number 5... alcohol

and where did BZP party pills rate?,the latest great satan of those that would control YOUR bodies and what you put in them???... didn't even make the top 20......

It's wonderful living in a free,informed society...


Oh but didn't you know that all the studies in the world won't change peoples minds IF the findings don't agree with their own beliefs? :eek:

[flyingcrocodile46]

Oh but didn't you know that all the studies in the world won't change peoples minds IF the findings don't agree with their own beliefs? :eek:

Heh... +1 for a dose of reality

[SixPackBack]

Besides I ain't an 'average' KB user.

Sorry to burst your bubble bro' but really you 'aint that different from the rest of us.
Perhaps a little more stubborn.:yes:

[SixPackBack]

Just for info; BMC(British Medical Council) did a two year study on the top twenty most destructive drugs in use in the UK ...
number 1 was,unsurprisingly,Heroin... where was Meth?...... number 9,one position BEHIND nicotine.

Guess what was number 5... alcohol

and where did BZP party pills rate?,the latest great satan of those that would control YOUR bodies and what you put in them???... didn't even make the top 20......

It's wonderful living in a free,informed society...

Any chance of finding a link to this study twotyred?
The addictiveness of nicotine would not surprise me in the slightest!

[Finn]

Oh but didn't you know that all the studies in the world won't change peoples minds IF the findings don't agree with their own beliefs? :eek:

Get off the P bro, you're hurting the people closest to you.

[Finn]

Well I thought it was funny.

[nodrog]

Well I thought it was funny.

awwwwwwwwww :grouphug:

[Finn]

awwwwwwwwww :grouphug:

I see, the pic isn't working.... is it?

[nodrog]

I see, the pic isn't working.... is it?

theres a pic?

[Finn]

theres a pic?

I'll have to start all over again.

[nodrog]

I'll have to start all over again.

ready, steady, GO!

[Finn]

ready, steady, GO!

Done. Now if a mod could delete the last fews posts it would be appreciated.

[scumdog]

Sorry to burst your bubble bro' but really you 'aint that different from the rest of us.
Perhaps a little more stubborn.:yes:

I've a bubble? And YOU burst it?
Meanie.

Ha, I've about seven times more posts than you anyway!!

(Runs away with childish laughter....)

[jonbuoy]

Just for info; BMC(British Medical Council) did a two year study on the top twenty most destructive drugs in use in the UK ...
number 1 was,unsurprisingly,Heroin... where was Meth?...... number 9,one position BEHIND nicotine.

Guess what was number 5... alcohol

and where did BZP party pills rate?,the latest great satan of those that would control YOUR bodies and what you put in them???... didn't even make the top 20......

It's wonderful living in a free,informed society...

Who the hell would bother with BZP when Ectascy and the like are so freely available. Same for Crystal Meth - not the drug of choice which is why its so far down on the list.

[SixPackBack]

Who the hell would bother with BZP when Ectascy and the like are so freely available. Same for Crystal Meth - not the drug of choice which is why its so far down on the list.

My fascination with all things druggie has lead me to question any and all users.
When it comes to BZP I have yet to find anyone who will not SLAM the resulting hangover. After trying BZP a couple of times I concur, the shit regulates itself.

The guberments meddling outlawing the drug [while clearly ill conceived] will have a positive spin off. Companies once manufacturing BZP will now be spending vast amounts of money on alternatives. Hopefully the consumer wins.

[candor]

Seriously.. if it's legal, we would have more people hooked on it and then more people needing medical help for the addiction in the first place.. How would legalising it make it easier to help those people?

But making it legal would just mean we would end up with more people needing help in the first place wouldn't it.. and whose to say they would come foward for help, even though alcohol etc are legal it doesnt mean more people are actually asking for help. There is still a definate stigma about being an addict of any kind.. ...

...just my opinion.

Thats what I thought. But on doing some research I found that... it seems... that supply and ease of availability does not increase risk exposure to trying drugs/alcohol or addictions

Whether stuff is tried depends far more on the image and reputation of the drug than on availability. The drinking age is higher in the US but they get the same alcoholism rate as us at the end of the day.

Addiction tendency is strongly genetic so its more a matter of the addict will find the drug (however easy or hard that is) if the drug doesn't land in their lap first.

And thats a good point about legality not making it easier to seek help. On average the people I know as Kiwis are reluctant to seek help in most matters.