To give advice or not

[Riff Raff]

During the course of the Coromandel loop ride yesterday some people threw a few snippets of advice my way. Now some of you may have got the impression that I'm an ungrateful bitch, which is probably true. I'm very aware of my own failings, but get a tad precious when they are pointed out to me. :angry:
Went on a decent ride today and spent half of it analysing my riding style, then a brainwave hit me as two separate and (I thought) unrelated conversations came to me. One was on target fixating, and the other on the wobble my bike has on some cornering. Noticed the wobble was occuring on right handers and realised that I was focussing on the centre line and not on where I wanted to go. Simple stuff really. I'm not sure when I started doing this, but it is fairly recent and probably has something to do with a couple of near misses I've had with cars straying over the centre line. :shit:
So anyway this is a thank you to those offering advice. I'll try to be more receptive in future (unless I have PMT in which case I'll be totally irrational), so keep throwing snippets at me. :hug:

[R6_kid]

thats the good part of riding in a group. If ya like i'll set you up on one of the Bronz Ride Right Ride Safe courses so that you can practice your braking and turning in a controlled environment. I did it and had a wicked day.

[Ms Piggy]

Good on ya. I reckon there are only a couple of ways to improve your riding:
a) By riding.
b) By being receptive to advice from more experienced riders.

As long as you're having fun while doing both though :niceone:

[Riff Raff]

thats the good part of riding in a group. If ya like i'll set you up on one of the Bronz Ride Right Ride Safe courses so that you can practice your braking and turning in a controlled environment. I did it and had a wicked day.

I actually did an advanced riding course 6 months ago which was very useful. I think the problem was that I'd a had a few frights and got a bit nervous. I practice emergency stops and countersteering regularly when I'm out and about. Now I'm going to try to analyse my riding on a fairly regular basis to make sure I don't slip into bad habits - and take on board well meant advice. Of course if someone comes up to me and picks at every aspect of my riding I'll probably bite their head off :bash: - subtlety is probably the best approach with me!!!

[Teflon]

During the course of the Coromandel loop ride yesterday some people threw a few snippets of advice my way. Now some of you may have got the impression that I'm an ungrateful bitch, which is probably true. I'm very aware of my own failings, but get a tad precious when they are pointed out to me. :angry:
Went on a decent ride today and spent half of it analysing my riding style, then a brainwave hit me as two separate and (I thought) unrelated conversations came to me. One was on target fixating, and the other on the wobble my bike has on some cornering. Noticed the wobble was occuring on right handers and realised that I was focussing on the centre line and not on where I wanted to go. Simple stuff really. I'm not sure when I started doing this, but it is fairly recent and probably has something to do with a couple of near misses I've had with cars straying over the centre line. :shit:
So anyway this is a thank you to those offering advice. I'll try to be more receptive in future (unless I have PMT in which case I'll be totally irrational), so keep throwing snippets at me. :hug:

Probaly not you, could be the bikes steering head bearings.

[R6_kid]

bit of topic, but Riff Raff, are you an ambo officer at north shore St johns? if so do you know george and andrew brock?

[Riff Raff]

bit of topic, but Riff Raff, are you an ambo officer at north shore St johns? if so do you know george and andrew brock?
No my station is in the deep south at Otahuhu. Don't know them sorry. Only shore person I know is Speedmedic. If they're not on the same watch as me chances are I haven't met them.

[Mr Skid]

Sorry if I was a bit presumptuous with any advice. I come from the perspective of a learner who really likes being given any advice on his riding, and I forget some people are quite happy to get on and work it out for themselves.

If I think of anything intelligent to say in the future (highly unlikely) I'll do my bestest to be subtle about it :banana:

[merv]

The comments on the thread about the ride certainly weren't bagging you so even though I wasn't there I'd say don't take the comments made on the ride too seriously. I don't know how much experience you've had, but in my view biking is fun when you learn to ride smoothly feeling like you took each corner well. Good point to point speed comes from smoothness and that comes from feeling relaxed about what you are doing and making sure you are riding by thinking ahead and avoiding surprises that cause the erratic type of riding.

Dirt biking is similar, speed comes from smoothness - something Mr Townley is famous for - if only we could all ride like that eh!

[2_SL0]

I will always gratefully accept advice, anyone who wishes to pass on any helpful info I will gladlly accept. :ride:

[F5 Dave]

Best advice I ever heard:

‘Listen to what people say, but don’t listen to what people say’

:spudwhat:

Sounds a bit cock, but it came from an auto electrician friend. People used to tell him what they thought was wrong & he’d find himself looking for the wrong thing & so it means listen to what people say & think “what would make this person think this?

How does this apply to the above. Well only very loosely, but I’ve typed it so there you are. :mellow:


I’ve been racing for a long time but I still have to remind myself from time to time ‘look where you want to go’. This is the hardest concept for people to grasp sometimes. I believe people who are ‘naturals’ pick it up from the go.
The eyes have it.

Driving cars is often a breeding ground for bad habits as they turn differently.

On one track with a long never-ending corner I found I was running wide & realised I was getting lost halfway around. I sat at the apex & practised looking around so I would get used to the sweeping motion my eyes had to make.

While this may seem abstract from the road as everything is potentially new, but the eye motion is important. Imagine your focal point as a greyhound following a rabbit quite some way ahead of you. Scan the surface & your position with your peripheral vision, but your focal point way ahead. On tight corners this means you have to turn your head quite a lot.

[2_SL0]

I do have a question on leaning if someone could offer some advice. I go into the corner I have a reasonble line, but I still seem to only lean so far, (this maybe in my head) I would like to be able to go thru the corners a bit quicker but I dont think I am leaning over far enough?, any tricks to do it. I understand the countersteering thing and put that into practise, but I just feel I would be able to go thru the corner faster if I was able to lean over more.

[Two Smoker]

I do have a question on leaning if someone could offer some advice. I go into the corner I have a reasonble line, but I still seem to only lean so far, (this maybe in my head) I would like to be able to go thru the corners a bit quicker but I dont think I am leaning over far enough?, any tricks to do it. I understand the countersteering thing and put that into practise, but I just feel I would be able to go thru the corner faster if I was able to lean over more.to lean the bike over more, you have to be going faster.... find a nice corner, and go around it..... take note of your entry speed (DONT look at what speed you are doing IN the corner)......

Then increase it by say 5-10kmh... and see what happens.... Lean angle is weird, you cant really judge how far you are leaned over, (except for pegs/toes/fairings/knees scraping)

[riffer]

I do have a question on leaning if someone could offer some advice. I go into the corner I have a reasonble line, but I still seem to only lean so far, (this maybe in my head) I would like to be able to go thru the corners a bit quicker but I dont think I am leaning over far enough?, any tricks to do it. I understand the countersteering thing and put that into practise, but I just feel I would be able to go thru the corner faster if I was able to lean over more.
Not really advice, more anecdotal here. I had a real problem with leaning the bike for a while too. I found that the more I tried to lean the bike, the "weirder" the bike felt. In the end I discovered that although I was trying to lean the bike in I was also subconsciously fighting it (that old self-preservation thing again!) and tensing up my outer arm, which of course made the bike want to stand up. End result - corner wobbles.

Once I realised I was doing this I tried to consciously try and relax and I discovered that the bike pretty much knew where to go. After a while the bike started to go smoother. Dave's advice about lines is spot on too.

[Quasievil]

Well If I can add my incapable arse comment cause its working for me.

I found I was tight in the arms going through a corner, thereby making countersteering tense I fixed it by listening to better riders on KB and reading, now this is what I do.
I relax the arm on the inside of the corner ie a right hand corner ,the right arm, I relax my shoulder and arm and lean more shoulder into the corner (in a relaxed way) I find by doing this I, 1/ can use counter steering better, 2/ I actually turn in quicker with a relaxed inside arm shoulder.
I know the old story different things different people Blah Blah, but hey try it it may be good for you. If some of you say DOH, yeah well Im still learning lol

[Riff Raff]

[QUOTE=paparazzi]Sorry if I was a bit presumptuous with any advice. /QUOTE]

I'm not having a go at anyone. You made a fair comment. What I'm trying to say is that I actually do appreciate advice - I'm not good at asking cos I think I might end up asking something stupid and looking like a dick, and I'm not good at taking it either. Since getting back into riding I've mostly ridden by myself so I've kinda got used to finding out things by trial and error. The whole intention of this thread was to say thanks guys for making me look at my riding, and if I was offhand then I need a bit of an attitude adjustment. I also really appreciated it when people hung back with me even tho I was slowing things down.

[sAsLEX]

I do have a question on leaning if someone could offer some advice. I go into the corner I have a reasonble line, but I still seem to only lean so far, (this maybe in my head) I would like to be able to go thru the corners a bit quicker but I dont think I am leaning over far enough?, any tricks to do it. I understand the countersteering thing and put that into practise, but I just feel I would be able to go thru the corner faster if I was able to lean over more.

as TS said just find somewhere comfortable for you and go over a few times, I scraped my foot first time on the weekend with toes right up on the pegs and at the time I wasn't pushing as hard as I could but just hit the corner nice and smooth then looked like a retard when I picked the bike up from full lean cause it suprised me when I felt and heard my foot sliding along the deck, was a nice uphill right 25 my favourite!

[Redstar]

During the course of the Coromandel loop ride yesterday some people threw a few snippets of advice my way. Now some of you may have got the impression that I'm an ungrateful bitch, which is probably true. I'm very aware of my own failings, but get a tad precious when they are pointed out to me. :angry:
Went on a decent ride today and spent half of it analysing my riding style, then a brainwave hit me as two separate and (I thought) unrelated conversations came to me. One was on target fixating, and the other on the wobble my bike has on some cornering. Noticed the wobble was occuring on right handers and realised that I was focussing on the centre line and not on where I wanted to go. Simple stuff really. I'm not sure when I started doing this, but it is fairly recent and probably has something to do with a couple of near misses I've had with cars straying over the centre line. :shit:
So anyway this is a thank you to those offering advice. I'll try to be more receptive in future (unless I have PMT in which case I'll be totally irrational), so keep throwing snippets at me. :hug: :first: I spent a bit of time behind you (no I wasnt checking out your butt!) but don't recall giving you any advice? I thought for a 250 rebel your were holding your own and was doing real good and cruisers are different anyway in handling and cornering. You were pretty tough to get past at times I recon if you got a sports bike you would show a few the way home.
I want my ZXR back!

[Riff Raff]

:first: I spent a bit of time behind you (no I wasnt checking out your butt!) but don't recall giving you any advice? I thought for a 250 rebel your were holding your own and was doing real good and cruisers are different anyway in handling and cornering. You were pretty tough to get past at times I recon if you got a sports bike you would show a few the way home.
I want my ZXR back!
Thanks. Well not too much longer now til I get my next bike - it will be good to have a bit more power so I can attempt to keep up with everyone else. Will probably need a bit of advice then as it's going to be a big change going from a cruiser to a Duc (hopefully if finances permit). Will also look at doing Track Time next year to hone my biking skills.

[ajturbo]

:first: I spent a bit of time behind you (no I wasnt checking out your butt!) but don't recall giving you any advice? I thought for a 250 rebel your were holding your own and was doing real good and cruisers are different anyway in handling and cornering. You were pretty tough to get past at times I recon if you got a sports bike you would show a few the way home.
I want my ZXR back!

yes same here! i was behind...(was i checking out your butt? :sly: :lol: )
and i agree with Redstar, you were not hold me up at all, ! when i over took you i just wanted to go a bit faster, don't get me wrong, i would have been happy if you had led the ride !..I'm not sure about the other real FAST guys, but it was a good pace!.. how long have you been riding?

[Riff Raff]

how long have you been riding?
Started 12 years ago, then had a break of 8 years, took it up again last year. Finally got round to getting my restricted this year, and can go for my full licence in december.

[ajturbo]

Started 12 years ago, then had a break of 8 years, took it up again last year. Finally got round to getting my restricted this year, and can go for my full licence in december.

so that means that you will be able to stay out after 10pm ??? :lol: :banana: :banana:

[Riff Raff]

so that means that you will be able to stay out after 10pm ??? :lol: :banana: :banana:
:killingme :killingme :killingme

[Motu]

Angle of lean is over rated in my book,going over further doesn't mean more corner speed,but does boost the ego of the rider concerned - mind you,I used to ride behind guys on the same bikes me...they'd be on the pegs,but I'd have 2in to go - I could take them on the inside and still not touch the pegs,I guess that didn't do their ego much good.Us lightweights have advantages the lardarses will never acheive.

I used to have trouble when I first started riding my sohc CB750 - if I hit a bump mid corner it'd rip the bars out of my hands and stand up,I was not impressed! I found out it was the high centre of gravity,on a bump the CG would move out and it'd stand up.I found I had to lean more than I wanted in a corner and/or hang off the bike,I was ok after that.

As the others have said - smoothness is the hallmark of a good rider.If you see some old fart who looks like he doesn't go too fast...get in behind and you might get a surprise.Smoothness and consistancy will give higher speeds point to point than big time braking,flicking in and off the bike,lot's of throttle on the exit - looks good,sounds good - but not the fast or safe way.Be cool,be smart,be smooth,be on top of the game.

[aff-man]

[QUOTE=Motu]Angle of lean is over rated in my book,going over further doesn't mean more corner speed,but does boost the ego of the rider concerned - mind you,I used to ride behind guys on the same bikes me...they'd be on the pegs,but I'd have 2in to go - I could take them on the inside and still not touch the pegs,I guess that didn't do their ego much good.Us lightweights have advantages the lardarses will never acheive.

[QUOTE]


Sorry mate angle lean is very important (on a sports bike anyway) the amount of lean depicts what speed you can carry through the corner and where you come out on the otherside. i.e. to much speed not enough lean and you'll find youself on the other side of the road (been there done that) or over a cliff.

As to advice taking, the best i got was. Listen to what everybody says try it out and if it doesn't work for you then don't do it.

[Two Smoker]

Started 12 years ago, then had a break of 8 years, took it up again last year. Finally got round to getting my restricted this year, and can go for my full licence in december.
I wish i could get my full :crybaby: have to wait till June next year :( ...

What kind of Duke???

[Motu]

Sorry mate angle lean is very important (on a sports bike anyway) the amount of lean depicts what speed you can carry through the corner and where you come out on the otherside. i.e. to much speed not enough lean and you'll find youself on the other side of the road (been there done that) or over a cliff.

As to advice taking, the best i got was. Listen to what everybody says try it out and if it doesn't work for you then don't do it.

If you ran wide on a corner we are talking more than lean angle - sure,you didn't have enough...but why? Your corner approach was wrong,speed,braking,apex,not looking far enough into the corner.Get the basics right and the CORRECT lean angle will come.Too much angle will do nothing for corner speed except looks...which is what I was talking about.

[Riff Raff]

I wish i could get my full :crybaby: have to wait till June next year :( ...

The waiting's bloody hard, eh? Wish I'd got my a into g a lot sooner.


What kind of Duke???
Monster, either 620 or 800. :love:

[Dodgyiti]

An old saying that I live by is " you never learn anything with your mouth open"
20 years and 200,000+ kms and I still have a heap to learn, the first thing was how not to fall off. Problem is- the more you learn -the more confident you get-the more you push it- then you fall off
The moral is never think you know it all, and don't be over confident :crazy:

[Fryin Finn]

For me working out maximum angle of lean is not to maximise corner speed but to determine margin of saftey. I can go into a corner hot and know if required I can scape more than my boots.

[F5 Dave]

If I can hark back to what I was talking about before, I believe that if you are looking far enough ahead & around the corner you will naturally lean a lot further more confidently.

I find I lean a lot less on the road because I don’t trust the traction to be consistent. On the track you can try bit by bit, but more lean-angle requires more traction & less oil, gravel, shiny bits, stutter bumps, etc.

[Sniper]

I think I need to ride with more people and need to lean more. I guess Im just still a bit nervous after the accident

[scroter]

all i could add is just relax as much as you can(yep its possible to relax and concentrate at the same time) when your not relaxed your at your most vulnreble, also your probably goin too fast for your bike/self. if your not relaxing properly slow down a bit and be smooth youll have way more fun.

[aff-man]

If you ran wide on a corner we are talking more than lean angle - sure,you didn't have enough...but why? Your corner approach was wrong,speed,braking,apex,not looking far enough into the corner.Get the basics right and the CORRECT lean angle will come.Too much angle will do nothing for corner speed except looks...which is what I was talking about.

If you say so. BUT if you read what i wrote i was talking about speed. I apexed the corner right, was looking through the corner not at it, and breaking was good. The thing is if i had done more lean the speed i was going would have been fine for the corner. eg 2) last week found myself going a bit quick around a tight corner, just dipped in a bit more (found the edge of my front tyre) but i managed not to run wide.
Though i am not a leaning demon either. And i know of the posers you talk about who seem to want to get thier knee down going around a 65km/h corner at 50. :killingme :killingme

[750Y]

I do have a question on leaning if someone could offer some advice. I go into the corner I have a reasonble line, but I still seem to only lean so far, (this maybe in my head) I would like to be able to go thru the corners a bit quicker but I dont think I am leaning over far enough?, any tricks to do it. I understand the countersteering thing and put that into practise, but I just feel I would be able to go thru the corner faster if I was able to lean over more.

hey JB, well you sure got some advice here, so all crystal clear on the leaning thing now?..lol. Wanna get a little practise in later this week some evening? We can maybe ride round a few more corners for practise.
send me a PM some time.

[Riff Raff]

Oh dear - Rant ahead:
I got myself in major defensive mode with my flatmate last night when he decided to give me his unsolicited opinion on my riding. He doesn't think I'm ready to get a bigger bike cos I don't know how to ride apparently. Now since the last time he actually observed me riding was a year ago, apart from pulling in and out of the driveway, I asked him how he could make that comment. He wouldn't (or couldn't) tell me. Then he said the test of whether you are ready to upgrade to a bigger bike is to ride standing on the pegs with your arms out. :wacko: Well funnily enough I had been doing just that on my ride home when I got a bit bored following a long line of traffic. Was tempted to do it past a :Police: who had pulled over someone, but thought better of it. A few other things were said which made the atmosphere a tad frosty. Personally I think I'm ready for a bigger bike and I guess that's the most important thing. I don't plan to go nuts on it and there will be a decent settling in period while I get used to it.
His other great words of wisdom are that you can't be a good rider unless you've made every f@#k up there is to be made. Go figure!

[Motu]

His other great words of wisdom are that you can't be a good rider unless you've made every f@#k up there is to be made. Go figure!

Damn,I hate those sort of thinking people,as bad as those who say...'it's not a matter of if you fall of,but when'...I got a major rant about that one and might start a thread on it,there's some stupid people out there giving advice on riding.

[Motoracer]

Oh dear - Rant ahead:
I got myself in major defensive mode with my flatmate last night when he decided to give me his unsolicited opinion on my riding. He doesn't think I'm ready to get a bigger bike cos I don't know how to ride apparently. Now since the last time he actually observed me riding was a year ago, apart from pulling in and out of the driveway, I asked him how he could make that comment. He wouldn't (or couldn't) tell me. Then he said the test of whether you are ready to upgrade to a bigger bike is to ride standing on the pegs with your arms out. :wacko: Well funnily enough I had been doing just that on my ride home when I got a bit bored following a long line of traffic. Was tempted to do it past a :Police: who had pulled over someone, but thought better of it. A few other things were said which made the atmosphere a tad frosty. Personally I think I'm ready for a bigger bike and I guess that's the most important thing. I don't plan to go nuts on it and there will be a decent settling in period while I get used to it.
His other great words of wisdom are that you can't be a good rider unless you've made every f@#k up there is to be made. Go figure!He sounds like a bit of an idiot. No offense intended.

[F5 Dave]

RiffRaff: re flatmate


Best advice I ever heard:

‘Listen to what people say, but don’t listen to what people say’


.

[FROSTY]

The two guys I got it from I sopose are sorta experienced riders.
1-Relax -if youre tense the ride will feel like shit and you will feel exhausted.
If the problem is your speed then slow down --In your case there aint a prize at the end for coming first.
As a personal note -when I slowed down about 20% from race pace i actually went faster after a couple of laps yet I felt like I was cruising it.
You will learn NOTHING if you always feel you're right on the ragged edge.
2) stay smooth -Hard to do when you're trying to absorb a bunch of new information but smooth on and off the throttle and smooth braking disturbs the bike less which feels nicer and so more settled in corners.
3) ITs a Mental thing -or-its a mind game . Unless there is something wrong with your bike -and I doubt there is the only thing stopping you from leaning deep into corners is your self confidence.
4) Motu covered this one off-style is nothing when it comes to corners. The guys hanging WAAAY off their bikes might look like theyre going faster but if you're more comfortable staying on the bike then stay on the bike.
If ya want your bike looked over just to be sure nothings loose or missalighned Ill be happy to cast an eye over her for ya.

[Quasievil]

Oh dear - Rant ahead:
I got myself in major defensive mode with my flatmate last night when he decided to give me his unsolicited opinion on my riding. He doesn't think I'm ready to get a bigger bike cos I don't know how to ride apparently. Now since the last time he actually observed me riding was a year ago, apart from pulling in and out of the driveway, I asked him how he could make that comment. He wouldn't (or couldn't) tell me. Then he said the test of whether you are ready to upgrade to a bigger bike is to ride standing on the pegs with your arms out. :wacko: Well funnily enough I had been doing just that on my ride home when I got a bit bored following a long line of traffic. Was tempted to do it past a :Police: who had pulled over someone, but thought better of it. A few other things were said which made the atmosphere a tad frosty. Personally I think I'm ready for a bigger bike and I guess that's the most important thing. I don't plan to go nuts on it and there will be a decent settling in period while I get used to it.
His other great words of wisdom are that you can't be a good rider unless you've made every f@#k up there is to be made. Go figure!

It more about how mentally ready you are for a bigger bike, they all have throttles, you could buy a ZX10R and ride at the speed limit always and be as safe if not safer than that on a 250 cc, Yes? so do want you want just be sure youre mentally mature enough ish to handle the ability to go fast if you want

[aff-man]

Oh dear - Rant ahead:
I got myself in major defensive mode with my flatmate last night when he decided to give me his unsolicited opinion on my riding. He doesn't think I'm ready to get a bigger bike cos I don't know how to ride apparently. Now since the last time he actually observed me riding was a year ago, apart from pulling in and out of the driveway, I asked him how he could make that comment. He wouldn't (or couldn't) tell me. Then he said the test of whether you are ready to upgrade to a bigger bike is to ride standing on the pegs with your arms out. :wacko: Well funnily enough I had been doing just that on my ride home when I got a bit bored following a long line of traffic. Was tempted to do it past a :Police: who had pulled over someone, but thought better of it. A few other things were said which made the atmosphere a tad frosty. Personally I think I'm ready for a bigger bike and I guess that's the most important thing. I don't plan to go nuts on it and there will be a decent settling in period while I get used to it.
His other great words of wisdom are that you can't be a good rider unless you've made every f@#k up there is to be made. Go figure!

Does he know that except for the big power boost, Bigger bikes (well i have found) are easier/smoother to ride. The 400 is heaps more stable than the 250 and i got over the power thing pretty quickley hence me now wishing i had gone for a 600 :brick: :devil2:

P.s. the 400 is still for sale :Offtopic:

[FROSTY]

It more about how mentally ready you are for a bigger bike, they all have throttles, you could buy a ZX10R and ride at the speed limit always and be as safe if not safer than that on a 250 cc, Yes? so do want you want just be sure youre mentally mature enough ish to handle the ability to go fast if you want
A couple of months ago I'da totally agreed with ya BUT.
After riding the whale to and from work Id add the proviso--as long as you can handle the weight at low speed. -I can't with the whals so I'm selling it -its too bloody heavy for me to feel comfortable

[Motoracer]

you could buy a ZX10R and ride at the speed limit always
Good luck!

[merv]

Riff Raff what I don't understand is how come all these people keep giving you advice anyway? Or are you provocative with your comment to them so that they can't help themselves?

Having ridden myself for 35 years I don't ever remember just telling someone they ride like shit or don't know how to ride or whatever. With a bunch of close mates, sure we've had a few laughs about each other, but not quite in the way you seem to be describing. Also if people ask for advice I don't mind giving it but usually nothing needs to be said, your riding speaks for itself and if you need to learn anything you can generally learn by observation.

I mentioned Ben Townley earlier and he has said he watched recordings of Everts riding and modelled himself on Everts smooth style.

[Teflon]

Damn,I hate those sort of thinking people,as bad as those who say...'it's not a matter of if you fall of,but when'...I got a major rant about that one and might start a thread on it,there's some stupid people out there giving advice on riding.

Are you one of these little boys who ride around in a T-shirt and shorts thinking possibilty of me falling off is nil?.

So i'm a stupid person thinking falling off is part of our sport?.

[Motu]

Are you one of these little boys who ride around in a T-shirt and shorts thinking possibilty of me falling off is nil?.

So i'm a stupid person thinking falling off is part of our sport?.

Not far from the truth - if you rode around wearing a T shirt and shorts would you put youself into the slightest possibilty of falling off? Self preservation is a big incentive for safe riding - if you have a history of crashes perhaps you could try it?

[Two Smoker]

What a fucking wank he is Riff Raff, dont listen to what he says (which im sure your doing lol)

And no one (As Motu said) listen to what i have to say about riding..... i cant ride for shit, and have plenty of learning to go (only been riding for 11 months now).....

And yep Affman.... i can probably get my knee down at 50kmh around a 65kmh corner, and proud of it hehehe.... its all about the wank factor.....