I killed Elsie

[Skunk]

I did it. It was me.

I'm not too sure what I've done yet but I shall discover.

She's had a miss-fire ever since I changed a dead plug. I didn't have a B8ES so I used a spare BR8ES. Worked fine for a week or so then came the miss. Swapped the plug to the other cylinder and the miss moved as well.

Swapped that plug for a new BR8ES and the miss came back half a k down the road.

Asked around and got told that she has a separate generating circuit for the coils (as I checked the battery charging circuit and it's mint) and that this may be dying. Purchased a new B8ES and she ran sweet all the way to work and 98% of the journey home.

Big spit out the exhaust, a miss, one on one then stop.

Can't turn it over. :confused:

Ah well, another engine to strip down. I have spare barrels and odds and ends but I'm hoping it's not that bad.

Oh, and the side stand bolt snapped at some stage the same day. Went to put it on the side stand and the head and shank of the bolt fell out. :mellow:

I love old bikes. Really I do.

[Trudes]

Ahhh, crapola!!!!:weep:
I'll help you if you like (doing what I don't know, handing you tools, handing you drinks, mopping your brow, acting as a centre stand.....)

[Mom]

Ahhh, crapola!!!!:weep:
I'll help you if you like (doing what I don't know, handing you tools, handing you drinks, mopping your brow, acting as a centre stand.....)

You forgot the most important bit mate.....looking pretty! :sunny:

[surfchick]

.... acting as a centre stand.....)

a gift indeed!! :lol:

[Trudes]

You forgot the most important bit mate.....looking pretty! :sunny:

Ummm, have you seen Skunk's bucket factory?? :lol: And for some reason everytime I leave there I'm caked in grease, petrol, oil and shit!! Not a lot of room for looking (or smelling) too pretty there!! I'll leave the looking pretty to Skunk Control, she does it better than me (and makes a mean coffee!!) :love:

[Skunk]

After being told to get off my arse and strip it down I have.

I didn't just kill her - I butchered her. She's fucked.

It won't turn over because the right side big end is seized.
The left side big end is toast (1.5mm free play side to side).
Both pistons are buggered.
Barrels look OK to me but I'll get them checked.

Some I need to pull the crank apart...

Two things:
What things could I have done wrong to do this? Don't want to kill another...
I haven't rebuilt a bottom end before but I'm guessing it'll cost a fair bit to do :cry: Any ideas?

Anyone know how different a TZR bottom end is? I have one sitting around.

Those aren't the rings sitting in the transfers; the rings are complete. I guessing they are the big end bearing.

[The Pastor]

dude. thats just not cool.

[xwhatsit]

What are those ball-bearing looking things up around the spark plug?

[CookMySock]

I'm amazed it wasn't making a horrific racket before it died.

DB

[martybabe]

What are those ball-bearing looking things up around the spark plug?


Looks like melted piston to me. either way I think an, oh bugger, is called for.

Hard luck mate .:doh:

[Ixion]

Bugger. And double bugger.

Pre ignition and detonation.

Caused usually by incorrect ignition timing (less likely nowdays with electronic ignition). Or a lean mixture (air leaks on the engine side of the carb is a sneaky cause. Or even sneakier is switching from autolube to petroil) ; or maybe a wrong spark plug (especially if this is a racer) .

I think the bits in the transfer ports are remains of the bearing cages.

Fortunately the bottom end strip is no big deal. Heads and barrels off, engine out of frame, remove flywheel, remove clutch and associated clobber, lots of bolts on the bottom case and it all lifts off. Only thing you will need, is a flywheel puller. You can't improvise it.

(EDIT: TZR crank won't fit without much munging. You can get all the bits to rebuild the crank but you need a 20 ton press and quite a bit of skill. Maybe a secondhand crankshaft ? . You can also get aftermarket cranks (ex USA) for the Banshee trike, which fit (there may be an issue with the oil pump drive- not certain but its not hard to fix). The Banshee is 350cc but the 250 and 350 cranks are the same (not absolutely technically correct because of balance - the pistons are different weights, but close enough for the real worls )

[dangerous]

Looks like melted piston to me.na, damage is all caused from debris from the bottom end.

yip... thats a bloody good job done Skunk, the ball bearings stuck in the spark pulg is a nice touch too.
So for some reason the botom end gave up the ghost and in turn screwed the rest You running the pump or pre mix?) well the cranks are in 3 parts I think 350 and 250's are the same. Good luck and hows bout a pic of the entire bike :2thumbsup

[Slingshot]

Skunk...Looks fucked...give it to me if you don't want it :)

[Rashika]

poor baby...
you aint getting ya mitts on MY Elsie anytime soon :nono:

but ya gotta get her back alive again, you just GOTTA!

[Ixion]

na, damage is all caused from debris from the bottom end.

yip... thats a bloody good job done Skunk, the ball bearings stuck in the spark pulg is a nice touch too.
So for some reason the botom end gave up the ghost and in turn screwed the rest You running the pump or pre mix?) well the cranks are in 3 parts I think 350 and 250's are the same. Good luck and hows bout a pic of the entire bike :2thumbsup

I can see detonation damage. The "ball bearings" are the result of gasified aluminium being attracted to the spark plug. You can see the seizure marks on the pistons too. But some of the damage is "battering" from lower end debris being flung around.

The cranks are in 5 parts (plus seals). An outer web at each end, an inner web for each cyclinder with the crankpin integral, and a central shaft . All parts are obtainable. As are rods and big ends. Cost a few $$$ though, hence might be cheaper to source a second hand crank or complete engine.

Ah two strokes. It's what they do. Is why we luvs them so :love:

[dangerous]

I can see detonation damage. The "ball bearings" are the result of gasified aluminium being attracted to the spark plug. You can see the seizure marks on the pistons too

I am tending to disagree... the seizure damage you mention is on most if not all RD pistons, 4 corners seize or cold seize common and often never felt.
Same with detonation marks... you will and often should find detonation damage on the tops of well tuned 2 stroke engines.

[gijoe1313]

:gob: :weep: Ah poos and wees and naughty words! :no: Sorry to hear and see such a sight!

I think this is one of those times where I didn't want to see the piccies! :pinch: :sick:

Do keep us informed of any progress on the rebuild? Replacement?

[Kickaha]

I haven't rebuilt a bottom end before but I'm guessing it'll cost a fair bit to do :cry: Any ideas?

Do it once, do it right, you wont have to do it again, do you want to take the chance of a secondhand crank doing the same thing?

http://www.pjme.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Parts_Store_RD250E__RD250LC__60.html
http://www.yambits.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cPath=97_103&osCsid=783ccfd017cd67e2494b212c3931543e


Anyone know how different a TZR bottom end is? I have one sitting around.

Different enough that they won't fit and depending on who you talk to neither will the banshee crank with out modification
http://www.wiseco.com/PDFs/Wiseco-YamahaBansheeBlasterCrankshafts.pdf

[ajturbo]

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Janets-Bike-Parts_W0QQfsubZ0QQtZkm

try this big boy

[geoffm]

LC rods have 1mm narrow bigends than RZ/YPVS/banshee crahnks. I know people have used RZ cranks but surgery is involved. The RZ parts are usable for LC cranks IIRC, except the crankpins are 1mm longer and need shortening.
Geoff

[Skunk]

I'm amazed it wasn't making a horrific racket before it died.I was having a miss fire problem for a few weeks before she died but other than that no noises that she hasn't made for the last year or more.

Caused usually by incorrect ignition timing (less likely nowdays with electronic ignition). Or a lean mixture (air leaks on the engine side of the carb is a sneaky cause. Or even sneakier is switching from autolube to petroil); or maybe a wrong spark plug (especially if this is a racer).None apply in this case.


I think the bits in the transfer ports are remains of the bearing cages.Correct


Only thing you will need, is a flywheel puller. You can't improvise it.Got one.


na, damage is all caused from debris from the bottom end.
yip... thats a bloody good job done Skunk, the ball bearings stuck in the spark pulg is a nice touch too.
So for some reason the botom end gave up the ghost and in turn screwed the rest You running the pump or pre mix?) well the cranks are in 3 parts I think 350 and 250's are the same. Good luck and hows bout a pic of the entire bike :2thumbsupCorrect about the damage from the bottom end.


Skunk...Looks fucked...give it to me if you don't want it :)Take a long week off the shortest pier...


poor baby... you aint getting ya mitts on MY Elsie anytime soon :nono:
but ya gotta get her back alive again, you just GOTTA!Damn right! I'm going to get the frame powder coated while she apart.


I can see detonation damage. The "ball bearings" are the result of gasified aluminium being attracted to the spark plug. You can see the seizure marks on the pistons too. But some of the damage is "battering" from lower end debris being flung around.

The cranks are in 5 parts (plus seals). An outer web at each end, an inner web for each cyclinder with the crankpin integral, and a central shaft . All parts are obtainable. As are rods and big ends. Cost a few $$$ though, hence might be cheaper to source a second hand crank or complete engine.

Ah two strokes. It's what they do. Is why we luvs them so :love:Thanks for the info.


Do it once, do it right, you wont have to do it again, do you want to take the chance of a secondhand crank doing the same thing?
http://www.pjme.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Parts_Store_RD250E__RD250LC__60.html
http://www.yambits.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cPath=97_103&osCsid=783ccfd017cd67e2494b212c3931543e
Different enough that they won't fit and depending on who you talk to neither will the banshee crank with out modification
http://www.wiseco.com/PDFs/Wiseco-YamahaBansheeBlasterCrankshafts.pdf

LC rods have 1mm narrow bigends than RZ/YPVS/banshee crahnks. I know people have used RZ cranks but surgery is involved. The RZ parts are usable for LC cranks IIRC, except the crankpins are 1mm longer and need shortening.
GeoffI have a complete TZR bottom end; rods included. I just haven't measured anything as I can't actually find it at the moment... :pinch:

Thanks for the links I'll start checking it all out. Give me a shout if you find a crank eh?

[Ixion]

There is enormous confusion about this. I believe that the difference is between the YPVS models and the earlier non-YPVS. In NZ , the YPVS was called the RZ , and the non-YPVS the RD-LC. But in other countries the YPVS was also called the RD-LC. I'm not sure which Mr Skunk has

If it is YPVS I think the Banshee crank either fits or can relatively easily be made to do so. To use a YPVS crank in a non YPVS the crankcases need machining. To use a non YPVS crank in a YPVS the crankcases need stuffing (but it is not recommended anyway)

I think that the big end parts for the RD cranks will fit the LC (and RZ too , maybe). But the crank end is different because of the water pump and electronic ignition.

But, regardless, new parts are available for all models. So it is not necessary to munge unless one has a crank sitting around that one wants to use.

[Skunk]

I have the 82 RD250LC, not the RZ YPVS. I'm pretty sure that the parts won't fit but was hoping someone would confirm otherwise. I was thinking along the lines of using the conrods to sprocket off the TZR and the head, barrels and pistons off the RD until I can rebuild the RD properly.

[Skunk]

Parts from Yambits will cost around $645 plus freight from the UK. Not too bad - if I had that sort of money... :lol:

Start saving... I'm still going to BoBTT though.

[Grub]

I have seen Elsie's innards tonight - it was not a pretty sight, I've had to come home, taken two panadol and had a lie down.

[F5 Dave]

Sorry to hear, could be several reasons for this. Perhaps a twisted crank has altered the timing on that side, or a shifted flywheel & one side was closer to the edge than the other. Or a leaking crank seal on that side. My RZ killed that side as the oil pump drive seal was leaking & starving oil to cylinder, alternatively the carb injection could be blocked, minor seizure twists crank etc.

All things to think about but all should be addressed by rebuild. Can borrow my leakdown tester when all back together. Reedblocks etc can leak. If we can bung up the carb hole with some rod & a plate over the exhaust port then the spark plug fitting of the tester will work.

Pity the LC & YPVS cranks are different as I have a low mileage YPVS one after putting a stroked Banshee billet crank in my new RZ.

[Kickaha]

Pity the LC & YPVS cranks are different as I have a low mileage YPVS one after putting a stroked Banshee billet crank in my new RZ.

They will fit with a bit of modification, if I remember rightly the cranks are slightly wider, so you either have to machine the cases or machine the crank webs so it will slot in

[mitchilin]

This is not going to help,but I thought these things were "unkillable".Had one for 18 months and tried.Had some issues with the waterpump(put water in it)but hell,what a reliable bike.Great to see some people keeping them going.Air cooled bikes I spent hundreds on before "learning"

[Skunk]

I've removed the crank now and there's more damage than it first looked. One of the main bearings is only half there. It run smoothly though. Odd.

I freed up the big that was jammed. It's missing half the needles and the cage is gone. Now I need to press it apart. Best quote so far is $160.

[skidMark]

The R in the plug name means resistor. cant use resistored plugs on 2 strokes.

[Skunk]

The R in the plug name means resistor. cant use resistored plugs on 2 strokes.
Yeah, I know.

[dangerous]

The R in the plug name means resistor. cant use resistored plugs on 2 strokes.
yes you can ya wally... as long as the plug cap isent resistered, you can have one or the other :yawn:

[Ixion]

This is not going to help,but I thought these things were "unkillable".Had one for 18 months and tried.Had some issues with the waterpump(put water in it)but hell,what a reliable bike.Great to see some people keeping them going.Air cooled bikes I spent hundreds on before "learning"

Tell that to my battered arzhole
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll233/jedidiahstott/Stuff/rzpiston.jpg
Two strokes. It's what they do. Is why we luvs them so :love:

[gijoe1313]

Pitter pat goes my heart ... was such a warming sight to see when I rode Daisy and zeo was on Betsy today!

Hrumm ... I hope Elsie is coming along ... better get off my chuff and get on with Daphne and Dandi! :innocent:

[TygerTung]

Then why is the factory specified plug for my RZ350 a BR9ES?

[dangerous]

Then why is the factory specified plug for my RZ350 a BR9ES?

because the factory specified pulg cap... dont have a resister

[Forest]

Tell that to my battered arzhole
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll233/jedidiahstott/Stuff/rzpiston.jpg
Two strokes. It's what they do. Is why we luvs them so :love:

Offerings to the God of Speed.

[stanko]

because the factory specified pulg cap... dont have a resister

Its actually because without the resistor the electrical interference would mess with the powervalve controller

[F5 Dave]

Well Skidmark shows his usual lack of knowledge "cant use resistored plugs on 2 strokes" Pah! Usually all caps are resistored these days (post 70s) to suppress RF noise which interferes with radios etc & was concern with YPVS box on the later RZs. I truly believe the RZs & most Yams of the vintage (so likely the RDs) had resistor type caps. Many will have come out with resistor plugs as well to cope with more severe markets. These arew usually replaced with non resistor types with no consequence.

Had a Taxi driver virtually run me off the road many years ago screaming about plugcaps and how my bike was interfering with his radio.

Either way you should be fine with decent resistor caps, I like the NGK marine rubber ones as they cope with the vibration well & stay clipped on hard as well as being a good weather seal. I wouldn't worry with resistored plugs but wouldn't expect a deteriation in performance either except perhaps on a race bike. Maybe.

[dangerous]

Its actually because without the resistor the electrical interference would mess with the powervalve controller

LMFAO... come on now even I know the power valve is a mechanically operated item, and I have been warned about resestered plugs and caps on the RD (pre PV)

[Ixion]

The powervalve is mechanically operated by a cable drive. The cables are controlled by an electronic box full of tiny little imps. RF gives the female imps headaches. They then refuse to put out for the male imps, who then get throughly tense and pissed off, and will start randomly tugging on everything in sight, including the power valve cables. So, it is possible that a non resistance spark plug/cap could generate enough RF interference to upset the PV controller. I've not heard of it happening, but that's not to say it couldn't

[dangerous]

The powervalve is mechanically operated by a cable drive. The cables are controlled by an electronic box full of tiny little imps. RF gives the female imps headaches. They then refuse to put out for the male imps, who then get throughly tense and pissed off, and will start randomly tugging on everything in sight, including the power valve cables. So, it is possible that a non resistance spark plug/cap could generate enough RF interference to upset the PV controller. I've not heard of it happening, but that's not to say it couldn't

imps... i had a imp once bloody thing ran like a haunted shit house, and even with the back window open it was bloody hard to get a half decent root in it... look I know they are a small car but surley ya cant get one in a PV control box? ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, you mean that Yamaha stole all the pixies from the front garden and stuck em in the we yamy box... :apint:

[Spyke]

man there's so much knowledge in here. I wish I could harness it and use it all. lol especially the engine rebuilding stuff.

[F5 Dave]

LMFAO... come on now even I know the power valve is a mechanically operated item,. . .
As said the PV is mechanical, but the controller on the RZs & TZs is by electric servo motor in turn controlled by an electronic box which takes it's lead from the CDI when to operate.

On MX bikes they are entirely mechanical as the valve is opened by a centrifugal device that typically pushes ball bearings outward forcing plates apart turning a shaft or lever.

[Skunk]

They will fit with a bit of modification, if I remember rightly the cranks are slightly wider, so you either have to machine the cases or machine the crank webs so it will slot inI've (OK, Sketchy Racer has) pulled apart the TZR bottom end I have and compared it to the RD crank.

There is no way, with any amount of machining, that that crank will ever come close to fitting.

The nearest measurement is the rod ends (17mm vs 18mm). Web to web is nearly 140mm different.

It must be the RZ/powervalve models that are similar to the TZR. May this be of help to everybody else who needs this info.

[F5 Dave]

yes the PV crank. Go search under RD forum.

Best to just rebuild yours. I have a good PV crank but with the machining it would probably work out expensive.

[Skunk]

Best to just rebuild yours. I have a good PV crank but with the machining it would probably work out expensive.I can't see any effective way to narrow up each web and take the space out between them too. You might as well start with a billet!
Yep gonna rebuilt the current crank. Several links have been posted in this thread where I can get the bits I need. Sketchy has offered help in doing the crank.

[Kickaha]

It must be the RZ/powervalve models that are similar to the TZR. May this be of help to everybody else who needs this info.

I was talking about the banshee/RZ350 crank that would fit RD350LC cases, although you have to machine either the crank or the cases a couple of mm

[Skunk]

Sorry, misunderstood your statement.

I now have a TZR crank and conrods for sale with good bearings... :mellow:

Dave, any chance I can measure up yours? I can get the machining done almost free. Gives me an option if something turns up...

[Kickaha]

Buyt this and machine it to make it fit
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Parts-accessories/Performance/auction-164067684.htm

[Skunk]

Aaaahhh, no. Want to keep this as standard as possible. But fuck, that's nice.

Ouch on the price too.

[F5 Dave]

Price is good, my 7mm billet crank was like US$1000 + freight & then gst as it came in. It's a new crank after all.

[Skunk]

The cost of webs, rods, pistons, rings, seals, gaskets, bearings and pressing is less (est $750). That's all I was comparing to. Yes, $850 is cheap for what you get, but it'll add too much cost to the repair.

[F5 Dave]

Rebuilding should be cheaper yeah. Erm I don't see rods in that list, they lose their plating.

[Skunk]

How about now?

[F5 Dave]

The cost of webs, gaskets, bearings and pressing is less (est $750). That's all I was comparing to. Yes, $850 is cheap for what you get, but it'll add too much cost to the repair.

No I still don't see it, - & you've forgotten seals too, don't forget the seals else it will leak & lean the mixture.

[Skunk]

The cost of webs, rods, pistons, rings, seals, gaskets, bearings and pressing is less (est $750). That's all I was comparing to. Yes, $850 is cheap for what you get, but it'll add too much cost to the repair.


No I still don't see it, - & you've forgotten seals too, don't forget the seals else it will leak & lean the mixture.Oh. Seals. And pistons and rings. And stuff (that should cover it).