If you ever start thinking you're safe...

[Learner Zealot]

Before I got my licence, and my bike, I asked about riding with those close to me who've gone down the two wheel road.

Words of advice from my brother:
"If you ever start thinking that your safe...Give it away."

Words of advice from my cousin:
"250's have two throttle settings, on and off."


There's always these two competing theme's that riders seem to be trying to find a balance between; how to ride safer, and how to ride quicker. Not that they are necessarily mutually exclusive in the skills required. Still there's the attitude beneath it of trying to get the most out of your bike while not dying in the process.

Having stumbled on this site trying to find an answer to a mechanical absurdity (success too, thanks again RonR), I glanced through some of the other threads and was shocked (rather naively) at how many mentioned people who aren't with us any more. It was unsettling. From my experience as a psychologist the only other group with that kind of communal malady is gay men with AIDS.

When talking to riders there was always at least a story of a frightening near miss. Still, here I am, and I don't think I'm scared enough. Sure I was shitting myself riding my newly purchased bike home. Thanking the, err, "biker gods", that I couldn't get it until late at night when there was no traffic. But the fear is ebbing away; going down in stages as I learn new things. I'm truly thankful for driving first, while thinking that, being such a physical skill, starting so late means I'm only ever going to be so good.

Having said that, I'm okay with only being so good. I think that could be what is going to keep me alive, so long as I can hold on to some of that fear I had when I first rode home. Riding around the Dandenongs (mountain range just outside Melbourne) I was surprised at how often I was overtaken by other riders while I never ducked beneath the speed limit. I was usually focusing on judging the next corner - and looking out for loose gravel and inconsistencies - when suddenly I'd here an excitingly loud rhythm close behind me. By the time I'd registered that it was a another bike, it had ducked around me and shot off into the distance in a rising pitch. Sure, these guys obviously had more skill, but I couldn't help wonder how much more likely they were to die as well. Same with the guys weaving through traffic. I just get a sense that these guys, even if they have binned, have a belief that it's not going to happen to them.

Unrealistic optimism is common amongst us hapless humans (except for the anxious and depressed who are closer to the truth in their estimations of risk). Most of us think we are above average drivers and riders (much more than just the 50% who are). Just like most of us think that we are less likely than others to die of cancer or be involved in an accident.

Do you think you're a below average rider? Do you think that you're less safe than average? For the learners I hope most of you will still acknowledge being less than average, but I bet you think you're an above average learner. Ba Bow. Wrong, thanks for playing. At least for some of you anyway. How do you know its not you? For the more experienced riders I'm sure many would have agreed with the sentiment and still thought "no" to both. Some of you are wrong. None of you thinks its you. Just a thought.

If you're new to this whole riding adventure, or have started to take it for granted, I think that's the one thing you need to remember; our stats aren't good. It's not just idiots who die. Intelligent, talented people who push their limits die too. As do random cautious riders. It might not have been their fault but they're still dead.

People probably (hopefully) post this sort of stuff often. Sorry if it's boring. This is just in case someone has forgotten. I'm worried I'll forget, it's happening already in fact. Every time I ride I take it more for granted. I don't want to have to have a spill to remind me. I don't want to have other riders remind me through their mishaps either. People are more fun alive.

Fear is good, but it can dissipate via habituation. Everyone's fear goes down when they experience something and nothing bad happens - the same theory is used to treat phobias. That's unfortunate for us as random stuff happens. I've swung wide on a corner once and have pretty much dismissed it as a one off. Could have been a deadly one off though.

One thing that keeps fear going in phobias is a sense of "phew, thank god I made it" that follows the removal of the feared stimulus. I think that's what we should tell ourselves when we get off our bikes.

Anyway, good luck not having any exciting stories everyone. The fear might keep you alive, hang on to some of it as best as you can.

[swbarnett]

Nice write up.

I'd like to add my two cents worth and suggest that what's actually needed is respect, not fear. Fear makes you tense and more likely to over-correct if something goes wrong. Indeed it makes it more likely that something will go wrong in the first place. Treat your bike and the road the same as you would a domesticated lion. If they smell fear you're dead.

[DingoZ]

Fear is not good. If you are fearful then that is when you can become overly cautious, which can lead to trouble.

Respect is healthy. For your bike. For the conditions around you. Every other road user, and most importantly respect for yourself.


2c

[rainman]

Do you think you're a below average rider?

Yes.


Do you think that you're less safe than average?


No,

Agree with the other poster who said respect is key, but it's also about having a realistic assessment of consequences. If you have thought through all the hazards you can see and have a plan for each (and it's not just the testosterone saying "she'll be right, never happen to me"), well, things can still go wrong. But they'll be the less likely things.

[jrandom]

I'm an Aussie, and you should do what I say.

Burn him!<tenchars>

[Usarka]

Same with the guys weaving through traffic. I just get a sense that these guys, even if they have binned, have a belief that it's not going to happen to them.


Most riders think that binning is <strike>inevetable</strike> <strike>ineverta</strike> bound to happen at some time cuz.

if it's going to happen why be sacared of it?

Note: author does not necessarily agree with views posted. Terms and conditions apply. Batteries sold separately.

[swbarnett]

If you have thought through all the hazards you can see and have a plan for each (and it's not just the testosterone saying "she'll be right, never happen to me"), well, things can still go wrong. But they'll be the less likely things.
Indeed, as in all aspects of life. Basic risk management and hazard identification skills are all that is needed, and all too often lacking.

I've been thinking, what makes a good rider? There are two ways to look at this. You could say a good rider is one who can get from A to B in the shortest possible time. Or you could say a good rider is one who is ready for anything (or at least most) that the road can throw at them. The former makes for a good track rider, someone that could give Mr Rossi a run for his money, while the latter will still be alive and in one piece into their old age (although the former may be also if they've an angel on their shoulder). Both are equally valid when taken in the appropriate context.

A truly great rider, of course, is a combination of the two. If you find yourself in a group ride unable to keep up with the testosterone fuelled rockets ask yourself this question: Are you a complete nana that needs to get some balls or are you just learning to become a truly great rider by maybe taking that blind hairpin a tad slower so you're ready for that cow pat right on your exit line?

[Grub]

Good thoughts Zealot, well crafted.It's hard to quantify how I see myself as a rider. I really don't know and am not busting a foofoo to find out.

I regard myself as a cautious rider, someone who prefers to sit in traffic than split if it is moving at more than 10k. I also run with full beam and approaching busy cross roads will move about in the lane to make myself more visible to waiting cars.

However ....... ! I've fallen twice, given myself a few sweaty moments and I LOVE the perfect corner. The feeling of G forces, of the beautifully executed curve, hanging off the bike with the vegetation on the inside of the corner just tickling your shoulder and the perfect line are all things to perfect and savour. They don't actually have to be done at great speed or risk but they are part of what I think attracts us all to life on two wheels. And therein lies the risks.

Picking the time and place is part of the survival strategy and I think that maybe the place is a track day. Get someone to take a stopwatch. In that environment then I experimnt and enjoy all of those sensations. I get them doing Paekak Hill Rd too but there is no way to control centreline-crossing vehicles there so the risks are heightened to the point where experimenting is on left hand corners only

[MSTRS]

+1 to the other posters who mention 'respect'...
If you are truly fearful of being on a bike, then don't ride...it will kill you. And being a cage driver first is NOT good training for becoming a biker.

[Soul.Trader]

If you are truly fearful of being on a bike, then don't ride...it will kill you. And being a cage driver first is NOT good training for becoming a biker.

I disagree - I think it's a good stepping stone. Learning road rules, how traffic works, basic clutch management, etc, in a safer environment. I think having a class 1 should be a prerequisit (SP?) for getting a 6L.

[Ragingrob]

You notice and hear about a lot more injuries and fatalities with bikers right and it scares you. Yet the other day when we all heard about the fatal crash with the biker and the truck, on that same day a father and daughter died in a car that crashed into a tractor!

Yes motorbikes are dangerous and we should be very careful etc, but there are so many car crashes even fatal ones each week now that they are barely mentioned in the news or anything! Yet I'm sure most if not all cage drivers do not feel any fear when they step into their car.

[rainman]

Are you a complete nana
Yes


that needs to get some balls
No

I like these yes/no questions....!

[Reckless]

Fear, respect, either or a bit of both! Who cares what you call it. I think the intention of the article is there. We don't want to do the typical KB thing and muddy the real meaning of a well written piece, by picking apart the terminology.

Good read Learner Zealot a timely reminder we all need from time to time.

[Ixion]

I disagree - I think it's a good stepping stone. Learning road rules, how traffic works, basic clutch management, etc, in a safer environment. I think having a class 1 should be a prerequisit (SP?) for getting a 6L.


I strongly disagree.

Over the course of half a cenntury, I've seen many riders come and go.

Some were cage drivers who took up motorcycling. Some the reverse.

There are aolways exceptions, but , by a massive margin, I would say the best riders AND drivers are those who start off on bikes, or bikes and cars at the same time . Those with experience driving cars who come later to bikes always have a lot of cager habits that need to be unlearned if they are to be safe riders . They don't always realise this of course, and often don't admit it.

Road rules, traffic sense, are good but don't outweigh the fact that a rider needs a totally different outlook to a cager . A bike is NOT a two wheeled car.

The best pre-training of all for a motorbike is a push bike.

And after 50 years I still fear motorcycles. They can hurt you, kill you. Only a fool would not fear them. But then I fear many things. Car, electricity, slippery floors, wobbly ladders. They can hurt or kill you too.

[Ragingrob]

Damn right Ixion...

If anyone heard about the guy that got killed at Rainbows End the other week by being caught in the Ferris Wheel between the frame and a compartment whilst cleaning it before opening, well he was a mate of mine. The accident was so crazy it may have been a horror movie, but yeah it happened. There are only so many things in life you can truly fear and be cautious about. Anything can happen at anytime, we can only do our best as individuals in our own thing (such as when riding). Nothing can be done about that drunk driver, that truck whose brakes fail, the list goes on.

Each of us can only prevent so much in terms of being aware and improving riding skills, but in the real world, shit happens huh, like Ferris Wheels...

RIP Mikey (20yr old with his full life ahead of him including possibly making the black caps....shit happens :()

[Mikkel]

There are aolways exceptions, but , by a massive margin, I would say the best riders AND drivers are those who start off on bikes, or bikes and cars at the same time . Those with experience driving cars who come later to bikes always have a lot of cager habits that need to be unlearned if they are to be safe riders . They don't always realise this of course, and often don't admit it.

Road rules, traffic sense, are good but don't outweigh the fact that a rider needs a totally different outlook to a cager . A bike is NOT a two wheeled car.

Do you think that this might have something to do with the fact that people who get into motorcycling at a young age either has the "RIGHT STUFF" or stuffs it pretty early on?

I think you're right in so far that - as has generally been agreed up - kiwis are pretty poor drivers and road user training is lacking. If they take those habits and attitudes from a car to a motorcycle they are likely to get a nasty wake-up call indeed. However, I don't think this is proof of a car necessarily being a poor learning environment.



And after 50 years I still fear motorcycles. They can hurt you, kill you. Only a fool would not fear them. But then I fear many things. Car, electricity, slippery floors, wobbly ladders. They can hurt or kill you too.

Funny that modern technology isn't on that list. That's usually number one on some older peoples list. Glad to see it isn't in this case though.

I however agree with the respect thing. Fear is the mind-killer... :yes:

[MSTRS]

I disagree - I think it's a good stepping stone. Learning road rules, how traffic works, basic clutch management, etc, in a safer environment. I think having a class 1 should be a prerequisit (SP?) for getting a 6L.

I hear what you are saying, but I believe you are wrong. How many calls have there been on KB over the years for motorists to start their 'career' on a bike? We know it's never going to happen, but learning on a bike first gives one skills in road safety management that will never be learned in a car.
Comparing control of the vehicle is not a cross-over skill, however, because the 2 vehicle types use different limbs for those purposes....whilst learning these skills, you are programming pathways in your brain and you will not use the same pathway for the equivalent action - ie car/clutch/foot...bike/clutch/hand...etc.

[swbarnett]

Fear is an emotional response to real or perceived dangers. This leads to the fight or flight response if the worst happens. When riding this is the last thing you want as the subconscious takes over will quite likely induce panic. Even though the panic is brief it can use up the split second you need to stay upright.

Respect is the conscious knowledge that your bike can kill you and you better keep your wits about you. When things go wrong your mind is geared to react in a constructive manner. You're less likely to panic.

[BiK3RChiK]

Fear, respect, either or a bit of both! Who cares what you call it. I think the intention of the article is there. We don't want to do the typical KB thing and muddy the real meaning of a well written piece, by picking apart the terminology.

Good read Learner Zealot a timely reminder we all need from time to time.

Well said! Good intent... Keep it cool, guys! +1

M

[Ixion]

Funny that modern technology isn't on that list. That's usually number one on some older peoples list. Glad to see it isn't in this case though.

I however agree with the respect thing. Fear is the mind-killer... :yes:

Urban myth. "older" people (whatever that means ) have no greater fear' of odern technology than anyone else. Maybe less in fact.

And in my case I spend most of my working day hitting the latest techmogogoly around the earhole, and beating it into a quivering lump huddled in the corner. And then stamp on it with hobnailled boots. Nothing to fear there, it can't hurt anyone.

[MSTRS]

Urban myth. "older" people (whatever that means ) have no greater fear' of odern technology than anyone else. Maybe less in fact.

And in my case I spend most of my working day hitting the latest techmogogoly around the earhole, and beating it into a quivering lump huddled in the corner. And then stamp on it with hobnailled boots. Nothing to fear there, it can't hurt anyone.

Esp. if you had triconies fitted eh?

[MsKABC]

You certainly have to learn a whole new set of skills when you start to ride bikes, and I guess there are some bad driving habits that could easily be transferred to riding. I know I have definitely become a better driver since I start riding.

I think one of the key things to safe riding (and driving for that matter) is knowing your limits and not riding beyond them. I guess that makes me a nana!

[Ragingrob]

I think both riding and driving do correlate and assist each other. Either way if you start doing the other than you already know the road rules and how traffic works and have experience being a road user. I myself started riding after driving for a while and haven't had any problems, I have liked the fact that I know my way around the road and can deal with situations before even learning to ride, otherwise I'd be having to learn two things at once! What are these "bad habits" cagers have that could be transferred to riding? Would these not be bad habits that original riders could perhaps have anyway?

[Ixion]

Not reading the road surface
Braking when something goes wrong (instead of dodging or accelerating)
Assuming
Relying on other people doing what they should
Not respecting dodgy surfaces (that one usually gets learned quickly)
Day dreaming
Not lane splitting
Stopping at the back of a line of traffic

Probably others, those spring to mind.

[Badjelly]

Being extremely careless about the placement of their vehicles on the road.

[Ixion]

Yes. And lack of situational awareness generally.

[Badjelly]

Yes. And lack of situational awareness generally.
I don't know which is worse: people who drive their cars the way they drive their supermarket trolleys, or people who drive their supermarket trolleys the way they drive their cars.

[Ragingrob]

Ok well you do have good drivers and bad, just like you have good riders and bad. Some of those things are things that you only need to know as a rider and not when driving a car, and I believe the other things are what many bad drivers would have. Surely a good driver would transfer to riding well and vice versa, and a bad driver would ride badly and vice versa too?

I've just thought of what maybe could be a large problem and that is drivers learning to ride but thinking they can just get up and go and ride the same as they drive. They would end up in the ditch very quickly. The mindset has to be "OK I'll take my experience from driving in terms of traffic and rules etc, but I'll leave my ego at home while I LEARN to ride as a LEARNER". I'd say people who start to ride after driving would have no problem if those were their thoughts.

As a driver I am very aware of my surroundings, never just slam on the brakes, try not to assume, don't rely on others, watch out for road conditions and don't day dream.

Yes I stop and the back of traffic and don't lane split in my car but have learnt these through biking.

It's all about your attitude to learning, both in cars and on bikes!

:2thumbsup

[Jiminy]

Not reading the road surface
Braking when something goes wrong (instead of dodging or accelerating)
Assuming
Relying on other people doing what they should
Not respecting dodgy surfaces (that one usually gets learned quickly)
Day dreaming
Not lane splitting
Stopping at the back of a line of traffic



Being extremely careless about the placement of their vehicles on the road.

It's funny, I've learned most of those things driving a car first, including not braking in a curve. Maybe it's the Kiwi driving standard that is too low?

The ones I haven't learned in a car are:
Not braking when something goes wrong (still working on that one)
Lane splitting (I'm not in a hurry to learn that one)
Stopping at the back of a line of traffic (same, it's even illegal in my country)

And, driving a car first got me used to the clutch (driving automatic cars is boring).

However, I must admit that riding a bike multiplied my awareness of traffic and road conditions by 10. Oh, and I was riding a mountain bike for years, so I guess I'm biased.

And I agree with the respect thing. When I feel fearful on the bike, I ride back home and go on foot.

[Ixion]

Ok well you do have good drivers and bad, just like you have good riders and bad. Some of those things are things that you only need to know as a rider and not when driving a car, and I believe the other things are what many bad drivers would have. Surely a good driver would transfer to riding well and vice versa, and a bad driver would ride badly and vice versa too?



Yes, to be sure, a bad driver will certainly make a bad rider.

But the converse may not be true. After many years of driving a car, a person will have learned ingrained, automatic responses. Some of these are not bad when driving, may even be correct, but are wrong on a bike. Others are 'lazinesses' which you can 'get away' with in a car, but will not on a bike.

Depending on the mental flexibility of the person, unlearning these learned behaviours may be difficult. In some cases impossible.




I've just thought of what maybe could be a large problem and that is drivers learning to ride but thinking they can just get up and go and ride the same as they drive. They would end up in the ditch very quickly. The mindset has to be "OK I'll take my experience from driving in terms of traffic and rules etc, but I'll leave my ego at home while I LEARN to ride as a LEARNER". I'd say people who start to ride after driving would have no problem if those were their thoughts.

As a driver I am very aware of my surroundings, never just slam on the brakes, try not to assume, don't rely on others, watch out for road conditions and don't day dream.

Yes I stop and the back of traffic and don't lane split in my car but have learnt these through biking.

It's all about your attitude to learning, both in cars and on bikes!

:2thumbsup

Precisely so. But as I note above, unlearning learned behaviour is not easy.

Whilst there are many practices or habits that are OK in a car, but bad news on a bike, there are very few things about riding a bike that are unwise when driving (automatically attempting to lane split is probably one!)

And bike riders tend to learn fairly early that the penalty for getting things wrong involves much pain. Car drivers often never learn that. So riders turned drivers are far far more cautious than drivers turned riders.

Overall, it is much better to start on two wheels

I maintain, indeed, that the licence age should be reduced to 14 for < 125cc bikes. For that very reason.

[Ixion]

It's funny, I've learned most of those things driving a car first, including not braking in a curve. Maybe it's the Kiwi driving standard that is too low?



Possibly so, but the point is you can get away it "BadThings" in a car. You won't on a bike.

And what's wrong with braking in a curve ? I do it quite often. Depending on the bike I'm on. Wouldn't do it in a car. So I guess that's one thing that a rider turned driver would have to unlearn.

[Swoop]

I don't know which is worse: people who drive their cars the way they drive their supermarket trolleys, or people who drive their supermarket trolleys the way they drive their cars.
I truly believe that a psycologist could get a good thesis out of this behaviour.
Supermarket trolley "operator skills" appear to be an indicator to the driving skills of the person concerned.

It is truly frightening.

[YellowDog]

I don't know about some of this.

Being a bike rider, I believe I am a far more aware car driver and likely to be safer to myself and other road users, particularly bikers.

As a motorbike rider, I consider my abilities and ambitions to be fairly limited. I know there are far more able riders than myself. I would suggest that this makes me a safe bike rider as I believe that I know my own limitations.

I am therefore a confident bike rider, which I consider this to be a good thing.

[Learner Zealot]

I hear what people are saying regarding respect instead of fear and I certainly agree to a point. I know when doing the course for my learners the first thing I had to work on was relaxing my arms and getting that sense of flow. It's a great feeling too once it comes together.

Riding in general is a great feeling, that's why I'm still doing it, and I still want to hold on to some of that initial fear. Maybe I've expressed it all wrong in exagerating for effect. No one can keep up fear while nothing bad happens - fear naturally goes down by itself. I don't mean panic - no one would continue to ride if fear didn't diminish, nor should they.

There was a doco on the effect of higher safety technology on driving habits (can't remember the title). It basically showed that the more safe we make our vehicles, the crazier we drive them. We drive right up to our percieved level of risk. One of the experts on the doco made a statement that stuck with me. He said something along the lines of "the best safety device for a vehicle would be to have a bayonet sticking out of the steering wheel".

As riders we don't have airbags making us feel safer, but we still ride up to our percieved level of risk, which depends on how good we think our riding skills are. The more skillful you feel, the harder people tend to ride. The thing is that it greatly reduces the reaction time to a point where no matter how good your skills are, when something out of the ordinary happens, you're not going to have time to employ those skills.

The idea that binning is inevitable is dodgy. I agree with it to the level that I think people in shorts and a Tshirt are fools. I wonder about it in terms of being complacent and diminishing the risk of coming off though. It could just be semantics.

[swbarnett]

There was a doco on the effect of higher safety technology on driving habits (can't remember the title).
Don't know the name of the doc but the affect is called Risk Homeostasis for those that want to Google it.


when something out of the ordinary happens, you're not going to have time to employ those skills.
If those skills are ingrained into your subconscious they'll be applied in whatever time you have (they still may not save you though).

Ever noticed how in an accident time seems to slow down? This is because when we are threatened we think much faster. It's an evolutionary programmed survival skill that allowed primitive humans to hunt dangerous prey.

[Paul in NZ]

I used to have 'opinions' on the 'right' way to go about things motorcycling and riding etc. In recent years, I've realised that there is no 'right' way, or at least not one I'm aware of!. I'm still learning myself and also, given the sorts of bikes I like, I have little to offer the modern motorcyclist.

There is one observation I have made over the years you night find interesting.

When my kids started kindy and then school - I'm sorry - be it upbringing, genes or environment you could look at the other little kids in the class (you are not detached enough to do yours) and pretty accurately guess which ones were going to be trouble and which ones would thrive.

Go for a group ride, similar deal - I'll bet you could go around with a sticker and with 80% accuracy mark em up into 5 bunches.

1. Lucky to get home today - definitely will be dead within a year.

2. Serious accident risk or dead in two years.

3. Rides like a demon but un natural skills to match - possibly invulnerable - will live forever.

4. Mostly safe but no spirit or love for it. Will soon give up, have kids and bore people about how dangerous bikes are now.

5. Competent, self sufficient and reliable, with a little luck will come through unscathed. No worries, ride with you anytime.

Critically – I’ve come to think its rider temperament rather than raw ability or even training that seems to be a major factor in surviving. Can rider training change this? Stuffed if I know, never had the chance to find out and frankly I don't want to. Like Ixion I have a very very healthy fear of motorcycles and I like the way they scare the living shit out of me - I certainly don't want to reduce that.

Honestly - a while back I started measuring people like that on rides and it scared me so much I just avoid other riders.

Cheers

[Motu]

I would like to go against the grain and endorse car driving before bike riding.The time when we are most vulnerable as riders is when we are really new - we have no motor skills to control the bike,have no idea about traffic and how it operates.To get those motor skills,and put the ''I've never done this before'' nervousness behind us,I think a little time in the cocoon of a car is of benefit.Perhaps like the '50's version of pedal cars and trikes on a mini street scene,but with real people,real traffic light and trucks that can destroy.But once we can control the bike with confidence,there is nothing better to instill the concept of mortality.

Like those other old buggers Ixion and Paul,I too still fear my motorcycle,I am aware as I put the layers of protection over my vulnerable body what exactly I am going to do.....ride my bike in a hostile environment.I too can tell at a glance the type of rider I see,most give me a little pang of concern....they really aren't made for this activity,it's only a temporary thing....one way or another.But it's a thrill,and some jealousy,when you see that person with natural talent oozing out of them....I've tried so hard all these years to reach average.But I've stuck with it anyway.

I remember the Dandenongs - it was a long way to go out of the city to find roads like we had everywhere in NZ.Excellent riding country.

[Usarka]

Good call Motu, it was hard enough learning the bike let alone worrying about all the road rules, traffic n stuff.....

Someone mentioned bicycles being a good pre-req. me mountain biking skills (as shit as there were) have saved me salty ham a few times so far.......

[HenryDorsetCase]

Yet I'm sure most if not all cage drivers do not feel any fear when they step into their car.

One of the reasons I am fearful when driving is that I am absolutely convinced that every other driver on the road is going to do their level best to kill me. Works in a car, works on a bike, up to a point.:

See that dumb bitch in the riced up piece of crap Japper? She is texting on her mobile phone, not looking for me.

See that truck? that guy's been on the road 8 hours and was loading for 7 hours before that: he's tired and close to home, and that last quad shot is wearing off.

See the reverend in the Ford Escort? He doesnt care whether he lives or dies, so he dont give two shits about me.

See the Previa with a stressed Mummy and eighteen screeching kids in the back? Shes too focused on whats going on in the car to think about me!

See the Falcodore? that sales rep is under quota for the month and he is late for the meeting that could make or break his career. Plus he's just dropped McMuffin innards in his crotch and its HOT, plus he's just got a text from his wife who he suspects of having an affair with his boss... he's WAY too busy to care about me.

See the mid -90's Nissan sunny with the nodding dog in the back, and the sheepskin seat covers? the driver has Alzheimers and THINKS she just missed her turn-off.... and the bowls game she was going to was actually LAST Wednesday...... she doesnt even know I am here, so it will be a surprise to both of us when she kills me.

See the white van? He sure as shit ain't see you.

...........see my point? Fear is useless. Risk assessment and mitigation will save your life.

[Learner Zealot]

...........see my point? Fear is useless. Risk assessment and mitigation will save your life.

I didn't see that that was your point. Risk assessment is tied up with the fear which leads to the mitigation. Without fear there is no sense of risk. Without fear we would all be dead. Just like people with no pain receptors tend to have all manner of physical injuries and have a greatly reduced life span (they also tend to have less fear through no physical pain feedback). I get your emphasis though.

[swbarnett]

I would like to go against the grain and endorse car driving before bike riding.
This is actually a legal requirement in Switzerland. The stated reason is that you can't have a licensed driver on a bike with you to teach you road sense.

[Learner Zealot]

I remember the Dandenongs - it was a long way to go out of the city to find roads like we had everywhere in NZ. Excellent riding country.

Yeah, you guys are certainly lucky that way. I'd love to ride around NZ - cost is bit a prohibitive in getting my bike over there for a holiday though. Taking my bike down to Tassie in April - not the same I know.

[swbarnett]

I didn't see that that was your point. Risk assessment leads is tied up with the fear which leads to the mitigation. Without fear there is no sense of risk. Without fear we would all be dead. Just like people with no pain receptors tend to have all manner of physical injuries and have a greatly reduced life span (they also tend to have less fear through no physical pain feedback). I get your emphasis though.
Very true. At the same time though, if you only had fear you wouldn't do anything. You need to push through the fear to get on with life. This combination of fear and motivation results is what is commonly known as a healthy respect.

[Learner Zealot]

Critically – I’ve come to think its rider temperament rather than raw ability or even training that seems to be a major factor in surviving. Can rider training change this? Stuffed if I know, never had the chance to find out and frankly I don't want to. Like Ixion I have a very very healthy fear of motorcycles and I like the way they scare the living shit out of me - I certainly don't want to reduce that.

Cheers

Yeah, I'd go along with you there regarding temperament. I think the combination of someone who rides primarily for the thrill of the fear and habituates to that fear easily (i.e. it keeps taking more and more to produce that fear) will find trouble eventually.

[mowgli]

Most riders think that binning is <strike>inevetable</strike> <strike>ineverta</strike> bound to happen at some time cuz.

if it's going to happen why be sacared of it?

If that's true then I'm glad to be in the minority. Binning isn't inevitable unless you make it that way.

[Learner Zealot]

Very true. At the same time though, if you only had fear you wouldn't do anything. You need to push through the fear to get on with life. This combination of fear and motivation results is what is commonly known as a healthy respect.

Agreed. The trick for me is using fear as information. Fear of fear creates panic. When fear is just information you can interpret it however you see fit and act in your best interests. Same with all emotions - your job isn't to control them (which leads to problems), its in controlling your actions in response to the information they provide.

[swbarnett]

Agreed. The trick for me is using fear as information. Fear of fear creates panic. When fear is just information you can interpret it however you see fit and act in your best interests. Same with all emotions - your job isn't to control them (which leads to problems), its in controlling your actions in response to the information they provide.
Seems like we're on the same wavelength after all. Just our understanding of the language is a bit different.

[Learner Zealot]

Seems like we're on the same wavelength after all. Just our understanding of the language is a bit different.

Yeah - happens pretty frequently. Semantics. Occupational hazard.

I'm always on the look out for fear (or any emotion) being labelled as bad. It's a societal thing, we don't really get taught how to use emotions very well, I see it all the time and I probably over emphasise it.

[Subike]

What sort of rider am I?
A below average learner.
Do I ride with fear?
No, respect, Respect for myself and my enviroment
Every other vehicle on the road that I am on is a potential accident, so I treat them as such, make judgements, take risks, be cautious, ride slow or fast depending on my evaluation of the given situation relevent to the road I am riding on at the time. Each kilometer of road is different than the one before. I never assume that its the same old same old, even those long straghts. ( bunnys , possums, hawks, all use them too you know)
Could I be a better rider, Hell yes.
Does my bike scare me, sometimes.

As for bad habits that Cage drivers bring to bike riding One huge one
Braking! In a cage, you reaction is to step on the brake when an incident happens, usually with the desired result of saving you ass.
BUT Stomp on the foot brake on a bike, with that same learnt reaction!
No need to tell anyone here the result


Now as for the inevitable event that you will fall off your bike at some stage of your life,
Buddy go believe that ....and it will happen....what you believe will come to pass.
I dont think that it is inevitable that I will fall off my bike, or have a crash, It might be probable, but its not inevitable, so I ride accordingly

[Learner Zealot]

Don't know the name of the doc but the affect is called Risk Homeostasis for those that want to Google it.



Thanks for that by the way, I'd forgotten the term. It's not an uncontroversial theory but it makes some sense on the surface.

[Jiminy]

This is actually a legal requirement in Switzerland. The stated reason is that you can't have a licensed driver on a bike with you to teach you road sense.

I don't recall it being the case when I passed my car license about 15 years ago, but I could be wrong. It certainly is not the case anymore from what I read (on the Internet, the source of all truths...). The law has changed in 2002 or 2003.

[Jiminy]

And what's wrong with braking in a curve ? I do it quite often. Depending on the bike I'm on. Wouldn't do it in a car. So I guess that's one thing that a rider turned driver would have to unlearn.

Ok, I rephrase. I always try to take a curve so that I don't have to brake once I've entered the curve. If I do brake, I do it gently, even more so on a bike than in a car.

The bad habit I was referring to is coming too fast into the curve and piling on the brakes while you're turning. Less risky in a car, btw, but I'm glad I've learned the 'right' way before taking on motorbiking.


If that's true then I'm glad to be in the minority. Binning isn't inevitable unless you make it that way.

You're right, but I like the slightly altered version best: binning IS inevitable unless you do everything you can to prevent it, in which case it might never happen.

[swbarnett]

I don't recall it being the case when I passed my car license about 15 years ago, but I could be wrong. It certainly is not the case anymore from what I read (on the Internet, the source of all truths...). The law has changed in 2002 or 2003.
I left in 1998 so my information is a bit old. Thanks for the update.