Serious Crash Unit last night (early this morning)

[Tank]

Got home from the Wednesday night ride last night after having a few hot chocs and talking shit with Big Dog at Bar Africa.

Threw on the TV and “Serious Crash Unit” was on showing an accident on Bush road, Albany (Right near Bar Africa) of a young 18yo biker.

He was an accomplished driver (He raced Porsche's in the UK), but was new to biking.

He came around the bend doing 70kph and saw a truck turning across the road. He hit the BACK brake ONLY and skidded for 29m.

The investigators worked out that if he had of used BOTH brakes he would have stopped with 15m to spare before the truck.

Just goes to show that people need to be instructed and learn - not just get their basic handling then think they are "all good". Some time at the Wednesday mentor evenings and this young fella would probably still be alive today.

So big ups for those who put on such great evenings – They make a HUGE difference and who knows – you may have saved some lives out there.

[Mikkel]

That's sad indeed! Without the front brake you won't be stopping in a hurry that's for sure. :no:

Just can't understand why, of all people, a porsche driver would be locking up the rear... :crazy:

[Tank]

That's sad indeed! Without the front brake you won't be stopping in a hurry that's for sure. :no:

Just can't understand why, of all people, a porsche driver would be locking up the rear... :crazy:

Because skill in driving a car does not equal skill riding a bike.

[boostin]

How did they decide that he used only his back brake?

[Maha]

Was that on last night?.... i saw that a couple of years ago....must have been a repeat.

[Ixion]

It is amazing the number of riders at the RRRS course who say "I have never used my front brake". Or, have the back wheel locked in the braking exercise but , very reluctantly, apply just the tiniest amount of pressure to the front (and only because they are told to ). And are eventually utterly amzaed at how quickly they can stop when they do use the front.

Usually crusier riders, but not always.

[Ixion]

That's sad indeed! Without the front brake you won't be stopping in a hurry that's for sure. :no:

Just can't understand why, of all people, a porsche driver would be locking up the rear... :crazy:

Simply because in a cage, if things go bad, you stand on the brake pedal. Conditioned reflex, he did just that. Probably didn't even remember that there was a hand operated brake. After all, who, driving a cage, would bother applying the hand brake as well as the foot brake in a n emergency (yes, I know, really old cars the big hand brake was the service brake. Bet no-one here's driven such a car)

[Trudes]

Wonder if it has anything to do with riding push-bikes where you really don't want to use much braking on the front brake and people automatically swap that over to motorcycle riding?? I'm surprised when people tell me they use the back brake for braking, then again, I used to too, until I was told to use the front for all my braking except for really slow riding and emergency braking (using front and a little back).

[Ixion]

Older riders. Come from an era when front brakes were (a) totally useless (six inch SLS drums); (b) if they did do anything the crappy forks of the era would practically twist inside out and throw you into a tank slapper ;(c) crappy tyres of the period would lock up really easy . And remember, back then most roads were gravel. Gravel roads still requires a careful hand on the front brake (you do still use it, but)

I never used to use mine back then (and indeed, quite a lot of bikes didn't *have* a front brake)

[Macktheknife]

I remember the episode well, and it is still incredible to me how many riders I meet who openly admit to not using the front brake. Some of them have been riding many years and reckon they only ever use the rear, which I find ridiculous. One of my instructors told me years ago "brakes are designed to slow whatever is behind them, so if you want your arse end to go slower use the back, if you want the bike to go slower use the front."
I prefer to use both all the time, for all braking needs and practice my balance of braking control for different situations.

[nodrog]

most of them big choppers they build in the states dont have front brakes

[jrandom]

I prefer to use both all the time...

:lol:

:shutup:

[Badjelly]

Wonder if it has anything to do with riding push-bikes where you really don't want to use much braking on the front brake

In my experience, front vs back brake use on a pushbike isn't much different from on a motorbike: if you want to stop fast, you have to use the front brake.

Mind you, when I was 10 years old all the kids in the neighbourhood knew with absolute certainty that if you ever used the front brake on your bike you'd go over the handlebars. As an adult cyclist, it didn't take me too long to realise that was wrong.

[Badjelly]

By the way, when I rode a mountain bike down the Yungas Rd in Bolivia, which I talked about here...

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1421427&highlight=yungas#post1421427

...I was a bit alarmed when we were getting ready at the top and one of the young women in the group turned to me (being obviously a man of some experience) and said "Which brake should I use?" I said something like "Um er, you need to use both. Be a bit careful with the front because you don't want to lock it up, but if you want to stop, quickly the back alone won't do." She looked rather confused but the guide cleared it up: "Just use the back brake."

Luckily, most of the people who were clueless about 2-wheeling went pretty slowly, and I don't think any of them got into trouble (which on this road means going over a 300 m cliff). I went with the fast group (being a man of some experience) and I was (I think) the only person who asked the mechanic to swap the brake levers around so the front brake was on the right, as I'm used to. I'm glad I did this because to me this was a road on which you really need to know which lever is connected to which brake.

[JMemonic]

Heard a story about a bike that kept going back to the shop with the complaint the rear brake is sticky, after a lot of work and effort on the shops part they spotted the guy riding, after following him they work out he was riding the rear brake all the time with his foot on the peddle, next time the bike came in they explained this to him and had a look at the front brakes to confirm the thought he never used his fronts, the proof was in the pad wear or lack there of.

Braking is a skill that needs to be taught and practiced till it is second nature, and a lot of folks don't get any advice, good or bad on best practices or tips to make like easier and safer.

How many of you experienced riders are willing to show the new folks how to brake, or corner for that matter, then have the patience and mannerism's to explain things calmly and in a fashion that does not sound like a criticism of the other persons skill or ability ? That is also a learnt skill, if you are going to give tips it is not you silly %$#*er you are doing it all wrong in the loudest voice try, Hi I noticed ....... and it used to happen to me until I learnt (or was shown) that ....... works better, and be willing to show them and observe them a few times.

[ManDownUnder]

I prefer to use both all the time


:lol:

:shutup:

ummm.. you don't? It's a rare situation when I totally bias the braking onto one or the other...

[90s]

Wonder if it has anything to do with riding push-bikes where you really don't want to use much braking on the front brake and people automatically swap that over to motorcycle riding?? I'm surprised when people tell me they use the back brake for braking, then again, I used to too, until I was told to use the front for all my braking except for really slow riding and emergency braking (using front and a little back).

If this is how you ride a push bike, then you are not riding it properly. Physics just the same - your braking power is heavily biased towards the front. As a cycle commuter in London I had a disc brake on the front and almost never touched the rear in 5 years.
Now in the forest things are different ... but still not that different ...

[90s]

I was (I think) the only person who asked the mechanic to swap the brake levers around so the front brake was on the right, as I'm used to. I'm glad I did this because to me this was a road on which you really need to know which lever is connected to which brake.

Odd, because on 99% of cycles the front brake is on the right.
I am very unusual in setting up my front disc brake on the left - it required a custom order from hope.

The moral - always set up any machine for your own comfort and requirements. Our ex-porker driver wasn't able to - he didn't understand bikes. I think Mikkel was alluding to the rear brake for porkers thinking of the rear-engined machines such as the 911. Lock the brakes on those babies too quickly and you exit rear-end first from the road. Which is what he did, exit stage left.

[Badjelly]

Odd, because on 99% of cycles the front brake is on the right.

In New Zealand, yes, but in the US and, apparently, Bolivia it is usually on the left.

[WasPhantom]

Practice practice practice! You need to practice the emergency stopping until such time as it becomes second nature, exactly the way he would have done in a car.

Once you've done that, practice some more! I'm happy to say it saved my ass the other day when [*shock*] someone pulled out in front of me.

Did I meantion you should practice?

[scumdog]

It is amazing the number of riders at the RRRS course who say "I have never used my front brake". Or, have the back wheel locked in the braking exercise but , very reluctantly, apply just the tiniest amount of pressure to the front (and only because they are told to ). And are eventually utterly amzaed at how quickly they can stop when they do use the front.

Usually crusier riders, but not always.

Rarely use my rear brake except to stabilise the bike going downhill on a loose surface.

Was most surprised to find you CAN lock up the front wheel on a Harley under emergency braking. (OK, I have and FXDX which comes with twin discs)

[koba]

Didn't see the show, but from what a mate said about it they based the conclusion of him not using the front brake on there being no sliding damage to the trye?
Does someone who saw the show properly think that going by the facts available he may have locked the back, been using the front brake and not been going the 70kays the cops said he must have been going?

[NOMIS]

Didn't see the show, but from what a mate said about it they based the conclusion of him not using the front brake on there being no sliding damage to the trye?
Does someone who saw the show properly think that going by the facts available he may have locked the back, been using the front brake and not been going the 70kays the cops said he must have been going?

fark, when i first got my bike i locked up the rear on my way home hardly use the rear any more i do when braking hard but with alot more pressure on the front, even in cars you have alot more braking power going to the front than the rear. but its so eay to lock the rear up on a sports bike as most of the weight is over the front,

[Mikkel]

It's a poor practice to completely neglect your rear brake. Unless you're doing a stoppie there will be some stopping power unused in the rear brake.

Hell, if you're stopping in a straight line it's better to lock it up than stay off the rear brake!


Could brake failure have been involved in the accident?

[pzkpfw]

We studied this film on my CBTA course with Andrew Templeton.

They seemed to have it well sussed.

Bear in mind a lower speed restriction due to the limited visibility (bends) was part of the result - they didn't just say "the guy on the bike was too fast", nor could they really fault the truck that turned in front of him.

(It was a 70k zone, I think.)

[MotoKuzzi]

Then you get a bike like the Moto Guzzi California with rear and 1 side of the front linked. Front brake only is not much use.

[koba]

I learnt to ride on a bike without a front brake.
Sure makes one appreciate how close locking and stopping best on the back really are.

[skidMark]

Didn't see the show, but from what a mate said about it they based the conclusion of him not using the front brake on there being no sliding damage to the trye?
Does someone who saw the show properly think that going by the facts available he may have locked the back, been using the front brake and not been going the 70kays the cops said he must have been going?


Witnesses said he wasnt speeding, cops did brake tests and concluded the speed dropped off meant he could have only used the rear, makes sense racing cars you use your foot to brake, he had been riding i think four days, bandit 250.

The speed limit used to be 70, they figured out for the truck to see the road was clear, take off and pull into the driveway, was less time than it would take any vehicle to come into view and be at that point before the truck had pulled in, this is why bush road is now a 50kph zone, it's the corner with the lunchbar on the inside.

Ive seen the show 2 or 3 times over the years, twice when i wasnt into bikes, and just last year when i watched it eagerly.

It was mainly due to rider inexperiance.

He panicked, i have odne it myself in similar situtions, but now i can concentrate and go right, look for the gap how to save this, front brakes is a good start, such a waste of a young life though.

SM

[skidMark]

It's a poor practice to completely neglect your rear brake. Unless you're doing a stoppie there will be some stopping power unused in the rear brake.

Hell, if you're stopping in a straight line it's better to lock it up than stay off the rear brake!


Could brake failure have been involved in the accident?

Nope they checked the vehicle, in full working mechanical order.

Road condition was also good.

[McDuck]

When i emergency brake i push the rear till the Tyre is beginning to skip, back off a little (but not much) then pull the front brake as hard as i need to do to stop, mean while keeping an eye on the back ensuring it still has traction.



Is this wrong?

[skidMark]

When i emergency brake i push the rear till the Tyre is beginning to skip, back off a little (but not much) then pull the front brake as hard as i need to do to stop, mean while keeping an eye on the back ensuring it still has traction.



Is this wrong?


ummmm

you bring on the rear then the fronts?

if you already have rear on when you bring on the fronts the weight going to come off the rear and it will skip more unexpectedly i would have thought, i always use fronts first around town, i try to avoid rears on the open road and track to be a bit more smooth.

but i do use them if i gotta stop in a hurry.

to turn tighter if i run wide out of a corner etc..... lock the rear so bike turns tight, then power over it with a drift.

Takes practise though, not reccomended for newbs.

[Nagash]

For emergency stops I prefer there much simpler.. both brakes on at the same time. Gotta be a bit more cautious in wet conditions but it hasn't failed me so far.

Also i've found, it's alot easier to actually use the bikes acceleration and handling to get you out of the shit then to try and stop.. potentially more dangerous but I reckon it's saved my skin a few times. Counter-steering, FTW!

[skidMark]

For emergency stops I prefer there much simpler.. both brakes on at the same time. Gotta be a bit more cautious in wet conditions but it hasn't failed me so far.

Also i've found, it's alot easier to actually use the bikes acceleration and handling to get you out of the shit then to try and stop.. potentially more dangerous but I reckon it's saved my skin a few times. Counter-steering, FTW!

Yeah if everytime i was going to hit somebody if i tried to haul the anchors on i wouldve bent alot of front wheels into cars.

I just peel off what i can and swerve, thats is if theres no way in hell i can stop.

in saying this i can stop in a bike length from 50kph.

[McDuck]

ummmm

you bring on the rear then the fronts?



about the same time, bit hard to wright it like that tho.

[90s]

When i emergency brake i push the rear till the Tyre is beginning to skip, back off a little (but not much) then pull the front brake as hard as i need to do to stop, mean while keeping an eye on the back ensuring it still has traction.



Is this wrong?

Totally.
There are a number of reasons why, including transferring weight through the front suspension by braking on the front first. On a sport bike 90%+ of your braking power comes through the front - on the biggest cruisers still over 70%.
Anytime you are not braking on the front you are pushing your braking distance out, and changing the loads on the suspension of the bike that will not get the best of the front when you try. It is always important to come onto the front slightly before the rear if you can.

A study you can find through KB took all the variables out braking stablised bikes under controlled conditions and confirmed all the facts.

But more usufully do it yourself. You can do what they do at RRRS, or you can set it up in a car park yourself.

Set up some cones in a line.
Repeat each step 4 times or so.

1. Hit the start of the cones at 50kph - brake only rear.
2. Repeat, brake only front.
3. Repeat with both brakes.

This is emergency braking, so don't worry about the clutch or stalling (yes, I know there is an advanced debate on this .. I also know the data ... ) - the aim is to save your life.
I have done this on a number of different bikes with equal cone spacing, and the results have been similar:
1. 2 1/2 cones
2. >1 cone
3. >1 cone (fraction less than 2 - about 10cm)

When you do this for your bike then you will know how to brake effectively on your bike.
This is something you must do.
Imagine locking the rear in an emergency on a curve - at this point you are not decelerating - then hammering the front straight without loading it. Wash out. Bye bye.

Good luck.

[90s]

Just some more - as weight comes forward onto front brake during heavy deceleration weight comes off the back - making it more likely to - or guarenteed - to lock, and therefore provide no braking power.

It is WORSE to skid on the rear for braking control than to not be braking on the rear at all. At the point of locking is where most power comes from.

On a super sport the front is so powerful 100% of braking in emergency is on the front as the rear is off the ground.

[koba]

Good advice above!

Instictivley grabbing the front brake and just squshing it as hard as possible while Still leaned over too much has caused two impressive highsides for me tho, so you do have to do more than just brake if you are slightly off upright.

In saying that the second time I highsided although I ended up tipping myself off the bike I also narrowly missed far worse outcomes of running my good mate over or hitting his bike. :sweatdrop

Practice Practice, Always learning....

[Mikkel]

When i emergency brake i push the rear till the Tyre is beginning to skip, back off a little (but not much) then pull the front brake as hard as i need to do to stop, mean while keeping an eye on the back ensuring it still has traction.



Is this wrong?

If you keep an eye on your back wheel you'll be going in circles - it's called target fixation. If you can see your back wheel while sitting on the bike I believe you have other things to worry about though ;)

Other than that - what 90s said! :yes:


For emergency stops I prefer there much simpler.. both brakes on at the same time. Gotta be a bit more cautious in wet conditions but it hasn't failed me so far.

Also i've found, it's alot easier to actually use the bikes acceleration and handling to get you out of the shit then to try and stop.. potentially more dangerous but I reckon it's saved my skin a few times. Counter-steering, FTW!

Ouch mate, that is a very very quick way to set yourself check and mate! If you accelerate in an emergency it's very easy to overlook something else and if you do so you're likely to get hurt worse than you would by braking badly!

[Ixion]

Also i've found, it's alot easier to actually use the bikes acceleration and handling to get you out of the shit then to try and stop.. potentially more dangerous but I reckon it's saved my skin a few times. Counter-steering, FTW!




Ouch mate, that is a very very quick way to set yourself check and mate! If you accelerate in an emergency it's very easy to overlook something else and if you do so you're likely to get hurt worse than you would by braking badly!

The OP is correct. Acceleration is a load better option on a bike than braking.

I've been following that rule for over 40 years and a million or so two wheeled kilometres and it's not got me into trouble yet.

Grabbing the brakes when it goes nasty is the reaction of a cager turned rider. There *ARE* times when emergency braking is the only answer but they are rare. Much much less common than "brake hard to scrub off speed and prepare to dive down the bolthole".

Y' should *always* have a bolthole ready. I don't think I've had a ten tenths braking situation in at least 20 years.Head where the danger isn't . That's what'll keep you upright.

[Mikkel]

The OP is correct. Acceleration is a load better option on a bike than braking.

I've been following that rule for over 40 years and a million or so two wheeled kilometres and it's not got me into trouble yet.

Grabbing the brakes when it goes nasty is the reaction of a cager turned rider. There *ARE* times when emergency braking is the only answer but they are rare. Much much less common than "brake hard to scrub off speed and prepare to dive down the bolthole".

Y' should *always* have a bolthole ready. I don't think I've had a ten tenths braking situation in at least 20 years.Head where the danger isn't . That's what'll keep you upright.

I'm not going to argue against your experience. However, if you are going to hit something then you want to do it as slowly as possible! (Ekin = 0.5*m*v^2 ;) )

A bolthole is all good - just make sure it is indeed free of danger before you hit the throttle!

Turning broken bones and a road rash into a funeral is not a good plan!

[steveb64]

The OP is correct. Acceleration is a load better option on a bike than braking.

I've been following that rule for over 40 years and a million or so two wheeled kilometres and it's not got me into trouble yet.

Grabbing the brakes when it goes nasty is the reaction of a cager turned rider. There *ARE* times when emergency braking is the only answer but they are rare. Much much less common than "brake hard to scrub off speed and prepare to dive down the bolthole".

Y' should *always* have a bolthole ready. I don't think I've had a ten tenths braking situation in at least 20 years.Head where the danger isn't . That's what'll keep you upright.

Yeah! :stupid: - except he really isn't! :niceone: In fact, it's something I've taught the missus over the past years - particularly when driving on gravel (yep - same rule works for cages too) - it's amazing what BRAKE (scanning for escape route) OFF BRAKES, SWERVE, GAS can do for a bad situation (like a logging truck on the wrong side (or all) of the road.

A classic example that I know of was a senior nurse, who'd been in Whangarei doing some work, had finished and was driving back to Auckland. Heading down the south side of the Brynderwyns, she was getting pissed off with some yob dickhead tailgating her, when she came around a corner to be met with a truck coming up the wrong side of the road at her! She swerved hard left into and up the bank, hitting the gas as she did it, and DROVE AROUND the truck. The guy tailgating her braked, hit the truck head on, and died.

Remember - you tend to go where you're looking, so if you see a problem, and keep looking AT IT, then you'll likely hit it. If you start looking for a way out, or around (or even a soft spot to hit :bash:), as soon as you see the problem (or even the first sign of a possible problem), then the odds are immediately better for you.

[skidMark]

Good advice above!

Instictivley grabbing the front brake and just squshing it as hard as possible while Still leaned over too much has caused two impressive highsides for me tho, so you do have to do more than just brake if you are slightly off upright.

In saying that the second time I highsided although I ended up tipping myself off the bike I also narrowly missed far worse outcomes of running my good mate over or hitting his bike. :sweatdrop

Practice Practice, Always learning....

Ive never had a highside, mind you ive never stonked the fronts while banked over.... if i gotta stop while banked over and no room to upright worst somes to worst stonk the rears countersteer it hard and lay her down.

it's only fairings and paint :blink::dodge:

[terbang]

Rider requires a quick stop, hits the rear brake too hard and as the bike rocks forward the rear lightens up and starts to skid. A skidding wheel has less "traction" or grip than a rotating wheel and it wants to come around and overtake the front one that is happily braking with increasing weight (we've all done handbrakeys in a car before, havent we). So the rear is stepping out and startled rider instictively removes the rear brake pressure, the wheel stops skidding and regains grip. This sudden increase in grip, while the bike is going sideways, is the nail in the coffin as the bike now has a tendancy to highside, flicking its rider onto the direction of the slide and then hunting him/her down as it cartwheels out of control in the same direction.
The difference is between our ears..

[McDuck]

Rider requires a quick stop, hits the rear brake too hard and as the bike rocks forward the rear lightens up and starts to skid. A skidding wheel has less "traction" or grip than a rotating wheel and it wants to come around and overtake the front one that is happily braking with increasing weight (we've all done handbrakeys in a car before, havent we). So the rear is stepping out and startled rider instictively removes the rear brake pressure, the wheel stops skidding and regains grip. This sudden increase in grip, while the bike is going sideways, is the nail in the coffin as the bike now has a tendancy to highside, flicking its rider onto the direction of the slide and then hunting him/her down as it cartwheels out of control in the same direction.
The difference is between our ears..

I have locked the rear up when practssing and i have found that it is not hard to unlock it quickly and get on with braking.

[sidecar bob]

ummmm
to turn tighter if i run wide out of a corner etc..... lock the rear so bike turns tight, then power over it with a drift.

Takes practise though, not reccomended for newbs.

Dang!! i bet its not reccomended for newbs!! you must teach me how sometime.
Is it OK if Andy Stroud contacts you for a chat?

[scrivy]

R
The difference is between our ears..

errrr, ummm, you mean wax??!! :lol:

[90s]

Remember - you tend to go where you're looking, so if you see a problem, and keep looking AT IT, then you'll likely hit it. If you start looking for a way out, or around (or even a soft spot to hit :bash:), as soon as you see the problem (or even the first sign of a possible problem), then the odds are immediately better for you.

Yeah, all good points.
Think BIKE not CAGE and see the solutions that aren't there for cages.

But if you brake - do it right and do it hard.
That's why its good to practice braking and emegency countersteering. As they say - you will do in an emergency what you usually do.
If you usually practive hard correct braking and countersteering until its instinctive, look for gaps in you everyday ride, then when disaster looms you will do the right thing, because you are prepared for it.

Takes us back to the subject of the thread doesn't it? Ride a bike unprepared and think like a cager react like a cage and even at 70kph you end up dead.

[steveb64]

Yeah, all good points.
Think BIKE not CAGE and see the solutions that aren't there for cages.

But if you brake - do it right and do it hard.
That's why its good to practice braking and emegency countersteering. As they say - you will do in an emergency what you usually do.
If you usually practive hard correct braking and countersteering until its instinctive, look for gaps in you everyday ride, then when disaster looms you
will do the right thing, because you are prepared for it.

Takes us back to the subject of the thread doesn't it? Ride a bike unprepared and think like a cager react like a cage and even at 70kph you end up dead.

My favourite 'emergency braking practice' places are traffic lights - or sometimes, just a regular intersection, as long as:

1. Tyres are warm.
2. There's no one behind me.
3. There's no one anywhere else either! (People tend to give you odd looks when you come screaming into a red light, then jam on the brakes for no real obvious reason! :rolleyes: ).
4. The road is DRY!

Aim to stop at a point about 5 metres BEFORE where you are supposed to be stopping, and give it heaps! If you get it right, you will end up stopping WELL before your target point. If you get it wrong - you may end up on your face - but better the hard learn without any cars to hit you, and just the road to hit, than having to worry about hitting a car, or being run over by one...

REMEMBER to let go the brakes if anything starts to skid! That extra 5 metres can be useful...

Looking for gaps, and learning lines can even be done while doing the pedestrian thing - I recall Roger Freeth being quoted as saying that he used to practice his cornering lines walking between lectures at Uni., and I used to do similar when I used to do the commuter thing on the train in Wellington - passing all the other commuters, power walking to work from the station!

[Warwick in NZ]

In my experience, front vs back brake use on a pushbike isn't much different from on a motorbike: if you want to stop fast, you have to use the front brake.

Mind you, when I was 10 years old all the kids in the neighbourhood knew with absolute certainty that if you ever used the front brake on your bike you'd go over the handlebars. As an adult cyclist, it didn't take me too long to realise that was wrong.

Hi, I agree, a bicycle and motorcycle are not that different. The difference is in the power plant and the weight. It still works off the Castor Angle.

Have a look at the down hill mountain bikers, yes they lay low for the speed and it goes with the thought of needing to brake behind the front wheel (so they don't go head over heels) and having weight over the back wheel for braking and side control.

It was interesting went i did my Rider Training, that the instuctor was not going to let his 6 year old on a motorcycle until he was preforming the moves on a bicycle around the cones correctly.

The paralells are there, Warwick :yes: :bash: :shutup:

[scumdog]

My favourite 'emergency braking practice' places are traffic lights - or sometimes, just a regular intersection, as long as:

1. Tyres are warm.
2. There's no one behind me.
3. There's no one anywhere else either! (People tend to give you odd looks when you come screaming into a red light, then jam on the brakes for no real obvious reason! :rolleyes: ).
4. The road is DRY!!

Regarding No.4 - I would say it would be at least as important to practice on a wet road surface too.?

After all, an emergency braking situation is just as likely to happen when it's raining.

Not knocking your idea - just adding to it.

[terbang]

errrr, ummm, you mean wax??!! :lol:

Well if that's (as you imply) all you have between your ears, then it wont.

[skidMark]

Regarding No.4 - I would say it would be at least as important to practice on a wet road surface too.?

After all, an emergency braking situation is just as likely to happen when it's raining.

Not knocking your idea - just adding to it.

Nahhhh in the wet you stonk the rear then pin the gas and drift past them full lock sideways knee down ripping the bird.:eek:

[DEATH_INC.]

ummmm

you bring on the rear then the fronts?

This is correct, if you use the rear a fraction before the front it'll squat the rear of the bike a bit which lessens weight transfer, thus allowing harder braking before the rear wheel lifts. I use the rear brake so much I can hardly ride without it....

[steveb64]

Regarding No.4 - I would say it would be at least as important to practice on a wet road surface too.?

After all, an emergency braking situation is just as likely to happen when it's raining.

Not knocking your idea - just adding to it.

This is a good point - but the road around traffic lights is often so contaminated with oil and other similarly slippy shite, that practising your panic stops when it's wet may end up being a little more exciting than originally planned! :pinch:

Even regular 'Give ways' can be bloody slippery... An example springs (?!) to mind - heading up to Manfield one rainy night, taking the back road that goes behind Levin (down past the hospital/home), rain and fogged up visor combined at the intersection to trick me into thinking that the intersection was a 'Tee'. Grabbed a big handful of brakes, and the front went! :shit: OFF the brakes - "FUCK - I'm not gonna stop!". Grab the brakes again - cue ANOTHER huge front skid! :shit::shit::shit: Off the brakes again, then feed them back on again a wee bit more gently. Managed to get everything hauled up - sitting on the middle of the white centre line of the intersection - looking at the road carrying on in front of me... thinking "Well, must remember that one next time... ...at least if I'd totally fucked it up - I had some road to overshoot onto!". Clicked back into gear, and sploshed off towards Manfield... :gob:

Ideally - dirt bikes (on the dirt) are the things to use for practising braking during wet slippy conditions. Don't break so easily, and when you mess it up, and land on yer face - dirt/mud hurts MUCH less! :msn-wink: (Most of the time! :oi-grr:)
IMO - The main practice for wet braking is locking the front - THEN LETTING GO THE BRAKES, and then feeding them back on again! Not that easy on a road bike, and bad if ya get it wrong... hence point 4!

[terbang]

When it comes to the back/front combination we have a large amount of variables that make any braking arguement difficult. Whilst the basic principles remain the same, variables like road surface, bike type & configuration, bike speed, wet/dry, straight line/cornering and even rider experience will deternine the apropriate technique. Emergency braking can be required at any time and we should all practise it to keep that skill current. However like a lot of things in life, forward planning or reading a situation well in advance is the key to success.
In other words, looking ahead to eliminte the surprises and avoid the emergencies.
For example, riding at warp eight along a busy road with lots of blind side intersections risks testing out your emergency brake technique (which may or may not work for you).
On a road riding (not track) course in Aussie a wee while back, they taught us to "setup" when in anticipation of a quick stop. What they meant was that it is better to start your braking with 2 steps. An initial (gentle) touch of both brakes, as you anticipate a developing situation, to take the slack out of the suspension and to get the weight transferring towards the front wheel in preparation for a poosible stop (The bike is still manouvreable at this stage if required). This can then easily be followed by the big straight line onto the anchors, max braking, stop being heavily biased toward the front wheel. The other spin off of the setup is that your brake light will give those behind you a heads upon what may happen next. When I make comments about the difference being between your ears, I say that in the light that riding a motorcycle is very much about management skills going hand in hand with manipulative skills. We need to develop both of them, ask any successful racer. Anyone can twist a throttle, but those that do so with knowledge and skill do it better and safer.

[Bren]

Takes us back to the subject of the thread doesn't it? Ride a bike unprepared and think like a cager react like a cage and even at 70kph you end up dead.

some of us dead many times over...i still say that people should ride a bike for a couple of years before they even learn to drive....will kill off the stupid drivers and leave us with good drivers!

some of the posts here have mirrored my style of braking. I hardly touch front in town, mainly use rear, but at the open road I use both more evenly, and am always looking for "an out", also always ride with my fingers caressing the brake leaver AND the horn!