650 pro twins...

[Tim 39]

To be honest I'm a bit suprised how few riders are in this class this year and how little support there is for it so far.
does anyone know why?

As the dedicated 125GP racer that I am, I like to see the 125 class growing at a great rate, with 19 on the grid at manfeild it says a lot for the class! and it's really great to see.

As happy as I am for my class, what about the pro twins? there was a lot of hype about this class, but at some rounds there has been very poor sized fields etc. I thought the likes of Kawasaki would put an ER6 out there, because so far it's only Suzuki that have supported the class........

will be interesting to see what happens to the class over the next year, it'll be make or break time then

[Skunk]

I'm sure there was a Khawa at Manfeild. It's still new I think. Everybody standing back to see if it's popular before they join in. :crazy:

[Ivan]

Well im looking at leaving the 125s to go to one

[Robert Taylor]

To be honest I'm a bit suprised how few riders are in this class this year and how little support there is for it so far.
does anyone know why?

As the dedicated 125GP racer that I am, I like to see the 125 class growing at a great rate, with 19 on the grid at manfeild it says a lot for the class! and it's really great to see.

As happy as I am for my class, what about the pro twins? there was a lot of hype about this class, but at some rounds there has been very poor sized fields etc. I thought the likes of Kawasaki would put an ER6 out there, because so far it's only Suzuki that have supported the class........

will be interesting to see what happens to the class over the next year, it'll be make or break time then

I think you will see a much greater field in pro-twins next season. Kawasaki are noticably absent from road racing, especially when the other 3 distributors have spent a lot over the years. Much as people often like to stick the boot into Suzuki, road racing in NZ would be a very sad day if they pulled the pin, and Yamaha have also stepped up to the mark. Honda has a presence ( albeit small because they have been burnt in the past ) Paul Stewart ( who works for Blue Wing ) puts a lot of effort in as road race commissioner and is totally apolitical.
It is therefore fitting to support those most who support the sport.

[Sketchy_Racer]

As sad it is as im also a 125GP fan, I can see the beifits in it for me. If i wasnt interested in true race craft and mastering the 125, i would be there in a shot.

I think it's a great step up from 150SS for those physically to large for a 125

[YLWDUC]

There was definitely an Er-6 at Paeroa. Not sure if Wiggles is racing at manfield, but he should be.

silver fairings with red frame. more or less standard engine, with race pipes/power commander and air filter. drivetrain, suspension and brakes have had work too.

[Subike]

I know this might sound a dumb question, but
how many types of 650 are there apart from the older tumpets and a couple of yammys.
They seem to be few and far between on the ground, so could this be why they are not racing?

[Sketchy_Racer]

Suzuki SV650
Kawasaki ER6-N
Cagiva?
Ducati?

The top two will be the most popular. cheaper and more common. Hopfully one of the manufacturs will get behind it and support the class with cheap bikes or the likes

[Hellraiser]

In order to not hijack some one elses thread so i have come over here instead
see this Thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1450500#post1450500)

Now i was planning on racing in Pro Twins this year on an Aprilia SXV5.5 now as far as i am aware and have been told there is nothing stopping me from doing so. This is a quote taken from the other thread;


Motards are only allowed to race with motards. Last year they bought in the rule that motards aren't allowed to race with "normal" bikes in F3, F2 etc.

Now it says in the F3 rules that .....

"Any machine complying with Rule No 34-2-3 and 34-5 is automatically excluded from entering any Formula 3 event.
Any includes all events whether they are MNZ titled events or not, this is for safety reasons.
It must not be amended or altered in anyway by the use of Supplementary Reuglations."

Now it does not say this in the Pro Twin rules any where.

Now it may have been an over sight on the part of the rule makers that they assumed that motards would automaticly be excluded because 99% are thumpers but my Interpretation is that the Aprilia SXV is in the 1% of bikes that can cross enter into the pro twins.

Now if i have missed something then please point me to the right info ..... thanks

[Robert Taylor]

Suzuki SV650
Kawasaki ER6-N
Cagiva?
Ducati?

The top two will be the most popular. cheaper and more common. Hopfully one of the manufacturs will get behind it and support the class with cheap bikes or the likes

The bikes are already cheap....

[sparky10]

I can recall a ER6f at all southern rounds, i think rider was from Welly,
No current models from Honda or Yamaha, 650cc 2 cylinders that i know of.
it would be nice to see this class take off, alot closer racing than F3, maybe some of those SV650s riders will take it up,:2thumbsup maybe not after all they just spent alot on them F3 bikes:argue:

[Ivan]

It looks liek a real cheap way of racing as the rules are pretty tight but it opens the whole tire thing open alot more on what brand to run for us 125 riders theres onyl 2 brands and to find one set of dunlops is rather hard lol

[sAsLEX]

\Kawasaki are noticably absent from road racing

You see more of them than Honda to be honest.

Fitzgerald the only 1000 that I remember seeing, and a couple of 600s maybe?

But no support like the Bernard boys Yamahas and the many Suzukis out there

[Mental Trousers]

Hellraiser, I'd suggest you contact MNZ and get them to clarify the situation.

[Ivan]

You see more of them than Honda to be honest.

Fitzgerald the only 1000 that I remember seeing, and a couple of 600s maybe?

But no support like the Bernard boys Yamahas and the many Suzukis out there


Hayden Fitzgerald on a Castrol honda

[k14]

Now i was planning on racing in Pro Twins this year on an Aprilia SXV5.5 now as far as i am aware and have been told there is nothing stopping me from doing so. This is a quote taken from the other thread;
Yes the bike complies but motards are not allowed in f3, pro twins etc. No matter whether or not they comply with the engine regs. They banned motards from all road racing classes bar the purpose made motard class because they are too dangerous to race with normal race bikes.

If you look hard enough you will find the rule. I can't be bothered looking though, sorry :eek: I think it reads something along the lines of "any bike with a handlebar height greater than XXX is not eligible for f3, f2, f1 etc"

Edit: Just re-read your post (had a mans read) and you prob do have a point but I very much doubt that you would be allowed to race it seeing as pro twins always is raced with F3, off the same start etc. This is at club level and national level. You should clarify your interpretation first.

[Sketchy_Racer]

The bikes are already cheap....

Yes Cheap in the grand scheme or racing you deal with, But still very expensive to someone like myself (18yo apprentice on less than minimum wage)

[Robert Taylor]

You see more of them than Honda to be honest.

Fitzgerald the only 1000 that I remember seeing, and a couple of 600s maybe?

But no support like the Bernard boys Yamahas and the many Suzukis out there

Actually Hayden gets the same level of contracted support we give the contracted Suzuki and Yamaha guys. If he had some horsepower it would get interesting. We help the Kwaka riders as much as we can with the time we have left over, but the support they get from the distributor is abysmal.

[jahrasti]

As Robert Taylor said, I think you will find numbers will go up this year as more are built. I have finishd building one and was planning to be at Mafield to judge myself against the experienced riders. Unfortunately shit happened and I couldn't make it. Also there is at the moment no incentive for the F3 650's to change back.

[Robert Taylor]

Yes Cheap in the grand scheme or racing you deal with, But still very expensive to someone like myself (18yo apprentice on less than minimum wage)

Granted, but margins are already trimmed to the bone. I was an apprentice too once and I am saddened that 30 years later the real cost of living has accelerated enormously due to a myriad of imported and local factors, among them mindless and costly government legislation. The root causes of our decline in living standards have to be addressed, not expecting onsellers to trim their margins ever further. Have you ever wondered why there is a constant ''turnover'' of motorcycle dealers? 2 main causes, 1) poor nett profit once the operating costs, taxes and mindless levies are deducted and 2 ) stress.

[k14]

As Robert Taylor said, I think you will find numbers will go up this year as more are built. I have finishd building one and was planning to be at Mafield to judge myself against the experienced riders. Unfortunately shit happened and I couldn't make it. Also there is at the moment no incentive for the F3 650's to change back.
Yes I think it has the potential to make F3 totally obsolete. There are more and more bikes turning up all the time. If you look at the times Karl Morgan was running at Manfeild they were pretty creditable, iirc 1.5s off the lead. Maybe a distributor, tyre brand should get behind it with some prize money. That would get the punters in.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Granted, but margins are already trimmed to the bone. I was an apprentice too once and I am saddened that 30 years later the real cost of living has accelerated enormously due to a myriad of imported and local factors, among them mindless and costly government legislation. The root causes of our decline in living standards have to be addressed, not expecting onsellers to trim their margins ever further. Have you ever wondered why there is a constant ''turnover'' of motorcycle dealers? 2 main causes, 1) poor nett profit once the operating costs, taxes and mindless levies are deducted and 2 ) stress.

Couldn't agree with you more!

although not the right place here to get into that convo!

[sparky10]

Or maybe "punters" would sooner go n watch V8 (tanks) "saloon cars", racing (crawling, so they "punters" can keep up) around the same tracks, as bikes r too fast for them.:girlfight:

[Clivoris]

Or maybe "punters" would sooner go n watch V8 (tanks) "saloon cars", racing (crawling, so they "punters" can keep up) around the same tracks, as bikes r too fast for them.:girlfight:

I suspect that there is some truth in that. Bikes don't have the same popularity. But like others have pointed out, certain race meetings pull the punters and riders. There might be a bit of a catch 22 occuring. People don't go until there is enough buzz generated, and enough buzz isn't being generated until enough people go. Instead of providing prizemoney at the Nationals MNZ spends the money on promotion and tv coverage. Did anyone see or hear any advertising for the Manfield round? There are other issues at Manfield as well, eg no outside food or beverage providers are permitted. Maybe with time and perseverance the nats will grow again?

[sparky10]

Maybe its lack of big sponsors,TV,big name riders etc etc, but crowds were not as big as i was expecting, comming from the road racing scene in Northern Ireland, With the similar population size.
A localy run (not international like NW200/Ulster GP) would easly get 5000+, crawling over hedges, standing in fields, just seeing bikes for a few hundred meters. Not being able to watch all the race and the whole circuit (except levels) with ease.

[FROSTY]

My point from day one-whats the diff between a pro twins and F3?
(Yes I DO know the tech differences-sod all)
Yep theres more pro twins bikes --but then look at the F3 feilds and ya go HMM aint it stealing from peter to feed paul?

[Sketchy_Racer]

Simple Frosty, the idea is that protwins is easier and cheaper to have a bike capable of winning a class.

How much would a TOP spec F3 650 cost over a TOP spec pro twin? After having a look at Terry Fitzgeralds bike on the weekend, quite a sizeable sum.

F3 is an old class, Look at the average age in that class versus 125s, 600's protwins etc....

[slowpoke]

I think Pro twins is about emphasising and developing riders whereas F3 is more about the combination and development of riders and bikes. Close racing between equally matched bikes is good (Pro Twins) but I'm also very interested in the different machinery and different approaches to the same problem of finding more speed within the F3 class.
The idea of building and developing an F3 project is extremely attractive but the Pro Twins don't capture my imagination in the same way simply because the rules are so restrictive.

[JJ58]

Hey Guys,

Refering to some of your earlier comments I would like to draw attenton to an enormously talented rider who is absolutly riding the bolts out of the under powered Kawa in 650 Pro Twins. Tom Bos has done exceptionally well, considering that he is 7-10hp down on the SV. I hope that his efforts this year don't go un-noticed by distributors..... It would be good to see more Kawa's out there to indicate the talent of Tom......I'd hate to see PT become a one bike race. If so then we're no better off than when proddie 250 was running..... My 2cents :-)

[GSVR]

Hey Guys,

Refering to some of your earlier comments I would like to draw attenton to an enormously talented rider who is absolutly riding the bolts out of the under powered Kawa in 650 Pro Twins. Tom Bos has done exceptionally well, considering that he is 7-10hp down on the SV. I hope that his efforts this year don't go un-noticed by distributors..... It would be good to see more Kawa's out there to indicate the talent of Tom......I'd hate to see PT become a one bike race. If so then we're no better off than when proddie 250 was running..... My 2cents :-)


7-10 HP down on an SV? I'm definately not getting an ER6 now.... :violin:

Maybe Tom should get Ray Clee to look at it!

[Deano]

My point from day one-whats the diff between a pro twins and F3?
(

About a second or two a lap.

There was a BMW motard type of thing in F3 at Paeroa. How did that get through ?

[GSVR]

About a second or two a lap.

There was a BMW motard type of thing in F3 at Paeroa. How did that get through ?

You can run Motards in F3 as long as the handlebars are not over the maximum height.

Oh the difference between F3 and Protwin is thousands of dollars in performance parts and many engine/gearbox rebuilds if I'm not mistaken.

[Keystone19]

I will be shifting to pro-twin for next year. I think the class will grow pretty quickly. Its a cheap way to get into some excellent racing. I'm looking forward to getting my ass whipped in protwin.

F3 is a great class too for the reasons outlined above i.e. rider and bike development. My main reasons for shifting to protwin are financial.

There were at least two Kawasaki's in each round of the Nationals this year. Tom Bos riding exceptionally well on his ER6 and Wiggles on his. Wiggles is F3, Tom is protwin.

[roogazza]

To be honest I'm a bit suprised how few riders are in this class this year and how little support there is for it so far.
does anyone know why?
will be interesting to see what happens to the class over the next year, it'll be make or break time then
+1 on that front ! As Mr Taylor has said , cheap racing !
The fact is , its as cheap as its going to get in the present day ( part from kids on those 150 thingies) I can't see why the class isn't being jumped at ? I stayed in 410 Prod for years , two reasons, it was cheap and real competative ! imagine forty SV's !!!!!!! G.

[johnsv650]

jill will enjoy protwins, the kawasaki in pro twins isn't about 7 hp down, with a new protwin sv in correct protwin rules and a kawasaki within same rules i have seen the sv putting out 71.5hp and the kawasaki puts out 69.5 hp with the kawasaki putting out midrange and the sv putting out better top end.
alot comes down to rider control, set up (roberts advice and knowledge) and tyres, all riders have the same tyres except one........
a few people are in south island are getting protwins for next year and at last club day 3 more arrived.........things grow slowly.
difference between protwin and f3 bike is about 14hp and $10,000.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I have looked at building one also. I take the point that it is cheap racing, but there is no such thing as cheap racing.... if you start with a secondhand SV650 you would be out on track having spent $10k, and if you start with something like this (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Sports/auction-142226024.htm) and assuming you get it for between $3 and $4k (no one knows if it even RUNS, remember) you would be out for about $6 to $8k depending on what you do about the fuel tank.

Now my NC30 is reliable (dont ask.....) I will stick with it till next summer anyway. THAT is cheap racing.

[oyster]

Pro Twin has a great future, it can cater for the newcomer, the club rider and the rising young stars alike. The technical/cost platform is not too hard
and the results will generally reflect the rider's ability. F3 has a lot of old fragile 10 yr old plus bikes that need replacing, and pro twin bikes are showing already to be more economic and perform better than many of these museum pieces.
There are 2 things that need addressing right now.
1) When Pro Twin came in the rules were quietly announced and hidden away in an antique website. So many people knew nothing about it. What was needed was good old promotiuon and support, not too hard, just some good mag articles and maybe a few top riders prepping and displaying some to encourage people. Not too late, and that's what we need to do this year.
"We" mean clubs, don't wait for MNZ to do it.
2) There will be a lot of tech questions in the first year, and someone needs to there to answer these with confidence. That hasn't happened. At Ruapuna, the opening Nat round there were questions and neither the Steward or the RR commissioner could find the rules until they got a laptop going to download them! And this tech question remains unanswered, despite
protest and appeal. Later, at Manfeild, an obviously non compliant bike took points and a placing when both the rider and steward acknowledged the bike wasn't eligible! This is a disaster for people wanting to join in to see this,
as many said before pro twin was vbrought in, it'll only be another Proddy cheating festival. We hoped they were wrong, but lack of action like this is not a good start....

But, to be positive again, let's all encourage and support the growth of it this year, I'm sure it'll grow to the size and affectiveness of the old Proddy 250 class of years ago. Let's hope so, we NEED it.

[GSVR]

Pro Twin has a great future, it can cater for the newcomer, the club rider and the rising young stars alike. The technical/cost platform is not too hard
and the results will generally reflect the rider's ability.

Good post Oyster. Concerned you didn't just say any riding ability.

So in your eyes does this mean that successful Superbike or Supersport riders will be prevented from racing in this class?. I think in the states if you win a championship in their minitwin class you can't race in it again the following year.

I can see when this gets popular some of the countrys better riders will want some of the action. Who wouldn't its cheap fun and shows rider ability up more so than technical/machinery advantage.

[svr]

Tom Bos rode an ER6 at Manfield (he finished 0.1 sec behind me in 3rd in race 3) and has ridden all the rounds this year.
Grids for pro-twins are pretty disapointing and hard to understand given that its a great class for ageing club racers and young talents alike. It's basically the modern equivalent of 250 production racing which produced hordes of great riders from the late 80's & early 90's.
Hopefully MNZ doesn't can it after one season,
Cookie.

[johnsv650]

so honestly is your bike protwin legal ?
standard cams.....

[svr]

You're funny! - My bike was the oldest shittiest most `standard' fuggin road bike out there! I'd gladly swap for a new SV with racing subframes light bodywork braided lines no lights new pirellis changed by Dad before the first race that I hadnt done a race meeting on + ridden 300kays to the track + practised/qualified on etc, etc.
Nearly as funny as Bos's dad calling me a `cheat' for having black backgrounds on my number plates (/saddlebag scuff protectors).
(nb/ We should put them all on a dyno like production racing everywhere else in the world - my bike makes 70hp exactly)

[nudemetalz]

How do the Hyosung GT650's go in the ProTwins?

[Ivan]

Good post Oyster. Concerned you didn't just say any riding ability.

So in your eyes does this mean that successful Superbike or Supersport riders will be prevented from racing in this class?. I think in the states if you win a championship in their minitwin class you can't race in it again the following year.

I can see when this gets popular some of the countrys better riders will want some of the action. Who wouldn't its cheap fun and shows rider ability up more so than technical/machinery advantage.


I dont think superbike riders should be banned from riding in this class so long as there bikes are to the reals then be it. The class was never designed to be another street stock class for entry class racing...

Not saying you said this but just to get my point clear in case any one miss understands your post.

I think any person regardless of class they currently racein should be aloud so long as there bike preforms to the rules then so be it.

And the idea of if you win the title you arnt aloud to race in it the next year like America, I honestly dont think that will work here the difference is in America you get contingency money to race, here you might be lucky to see 5 seconds of yourself on tv before they show "600's" or "superbike"

[Ivan]

How do the Hyosung GT650's go in the ProTwins?

Yes they are eligable.

They are a cheap option but do not know what they would be look under race conditions

[svr]

Exactly - it didn't hurt Slight, Stroud, Crafar, Dave Cole, Hepburn, Rees etc to race against old hands in 250's - If the kid has any talent he will be able to compete against anyone in NZ on a similar low performance bike.

[Ivan]

Yeah it would make the racing crap if all the experienced guys wernt aloud in and had ammatures cause the racing weould be good but as I learnt in my early bucket days Racing against top level riders like Fishy and Bayden and Hamish and Dave you learn alot from them and it makes you ride faster to be able to compete with there wealth of knowledge

[FROSTY]

Sorry to sound like a shitty prick but I predicted this.
The real difference between a well set up pro twins bike and a F3 bike cost/performance wise is?
Being totally honest with ourselves here the difference is about 5 hp and as some have said 10k

They are too much alike plain n simple --FFS they dont look or even SOUND different from a F3 bike
Break it down and the costs of running/building a pro twin is the same as a midfeild/top endish F3 --so whats the point?
I figure EITHER A) go for the doctor and let pro twins be full open slather 650 twins or air cooled 750 twins. -theres enough bikes which are close now to being up there -
but then restrict f3 to 400cc multi's and 500cc liquid cooled and 600cc air cooled twins. -let that class go back to the cheaper class it used to be
Or B) tighten up the regulations HEAPS
1) factory looking bodywork (glass replicas are fine)--so the bike looks like what it is
2) NO engine mods at all including PC's
3) restrict front fork mods to a max $ value so its basicly springs/oil/emulators
4)Rear shocks factory
5) muffler replacement ONLY allowed -so its not performance enhancing just louder and cheaper in a crash
6)bike weight must be within 5% of factory spec.
7)Replacement consumables-levers/bars/gearshifts allowed provided they perform the IDENTICAL function to the factory part
This precludes rearsets and lower bars but does allow for cheaper (crash cheaper) alternatives.
8) gearing to be factory gearing available for that bike.
This is a possible area FOR CONFUSION- sv650 nakeds have different gearing to the faired model but still cuts changes down to 2 possible rear sprockets.
9) crash protective equipment allowed -again to reduce cost

Reeling out my old barrow--theres an easier way--75HP cap --random test of top 5 finishers.-over 75---bye bye series points.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Sorry to sound like a shitty prick but I predicted this.
The real difference between a well set up pro twins bike and a F3 bike cost/performance wise is?
Being totally honest with ourselves here the difference is about 5 hp and as some have said 10k

They are too much alike plain n simple --FFS they dont look or even SOUND different from a F3 bike
Break it down and the costs of running/building a pro twin is the same as a midfeild/top endish F3 --so whats the point?
I figure EITHER A) go for the doctor and let pro twins be full open slather 650 twins or air cooled 750 twins. -theres enough bikes which are close now to being up there -
but then restrict f3 to 400cc multi's and 500cc liquid cooled and 600cc air cooled twins. -let that class go back to the cheaper class it used to be
Or B) tighten up the regulations HEAPS
1) factory looking bodywork (glass replicas are fine)--so the bike looks like what it is
2) NO engine mods at all including PC's
3) restrict front fork mods to a max $ value so its basicly springs/oil/emulators
4)Rear shocks factory
5) muffler replacement ONLY allowed -so its not performance enhancing just louder and cheaper in a crash
6)bike weight must be within 5% of factory spec.
7)Replacement consumables-levers/bars/gearshifts allowed provided they perform the IDENTICAL function to the factory part
This precludes rearsets and lower bars but does allow for cheaper (crash cheaper) alternatives.
8) gearing to be factory gearing available for that bike.
This is a possible area FOR CONFUSION- sv650 nakeds have different gearing to the faired model but still cuts changes down to 2 possible rear sprockets.
9) crash protective equipment allowed -again to reduce cost

Reeling out my old barrow--theres an easier way--75HP cap --random test of top 5 finishers.-over 75---bye bye series points.

I really respect your point of view Frosty from your experience. I too agree that power commanders, full exhaust sysyems and full f/g fairings were the wrong alley to go up and unneccessarily increases the cost of building a p/twin by a couple of grand BUT we have to look forward and not back.

Having built an SV pro-twin on a tighter budget than a nuns date I can now look forward to cheap racing. It was a brand new bike to begin with so now I dont have to worry about any major work being needed to be done anytime soon and the tyre rule of 1 set per round of racing reduces the cost of tyres (the major cost of racing) for racing. The major challenge now is to keep the bike upright long enough to learn from the quick guys racing at club level at the moment!! Hopefully will be running the nats next year when I get my speed up and I can gaurantee full grids at the nats next year. The amount of p/twins being built up at the moment is massive and as they say, good things take time.

:2thumbsup

[FROSTY]

I really respect your point of view Frosty from your experience. I too agree that power commanders, full exhaust sysyems and full f/g fairings were the wrong alley to go up and unneccessarily increases the cost of building a p/twin by a couple of grand BUT we have to look forward and not back.

Having built an SV pro-twin on a tighter budget than a nuns date I can now look forward to cheap racing. It was a brand new bike to begin with so now I dont have to worry about any major work being needed to be done anytime soon and the tyre rule of 1 set per round of racing reduces the cost of tyres (the major cost of racing) for racing. The major challenge now is to keep the bike upright long enough to learn from the quick guys racing at club level at the moment!! Hopefully will be running the nats next year when I get my speed up and I can gaurantee full grids at the nats next year. The amount of p/twins being built up at the moment is massive and as they say, good things take time.

:2thumbsup
I simpathise with ya-BUT RIGHT NOW with only 6 or 7 pro twins actively being ridden it would be easy to change things.
Mate again I feel for ya-but 2k is an understatement surely
rear shock -If you're out to win I think RT charges 2k ish
plastics-no change from 1k painted
performance enhancing exhaust--why not its allowed $1500
Front end--shit skys the limit really
PC--$450
The tyre thing--yea good idea but then honestly ya should get a meeting a set from a pro twin anyhoo
By meeting of course you take the OFFICIAL time on track --2 timed practices and 3 10 lap races -maybee a 15 if ya lucky
Run last meetings tyres

[Ivan]

As said earlier,

When changing the end can you need to adjust the ECU to compensate for the difference you have made on the engine and a power commander is the easiest option.

Rear shock as I have heard is dangerous so changing to a better one should be aloud and makes the racing alot safer

From what Ive seen its a cheap way of racing. And it allows some mods to make it a bit more interesting

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

some guys get carried away with building their bikes and lose the plot really and spend a crap load. Ive taken a bog standard naked SV650K7 ($9,995 suzuki fest price) to a faired racer for $1400. Thats including front and rear suspention, slip on pipe, clip ons and raising the OEM foot pegs and braided lines, OEM "S" fairing. anyone would think Im dutch but I want max bang for buck. now time to race...

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

As said earlier,

When changing the end can you need to adjust the ECU to compensate for the difference you have made on the engine and a power commander is the easiest option.

Rear shock as I have heard is dangerous so changing to a better one should be aloud and makes the racing alot safer

From what Ive seen its a cheap way of racing. And it allows some mods to make it a bit more interesting

actually dude, dont bother about the power commander, doesnt do jack all on SV's, seriously! trust me on this!

[Ivan]

Im going to be building one soon so advice is good

[FROSTY]

As said earlier,

When changing the end can you need to adjust the ECU to compensate for the difference you have made on the engine and a power commander is the easiest option.-Nope not for just end can

Rear shock as I have heard is dangerous so changing to a better one should be aloud and makes the racing alot safer -nope -yea the front is terrible but the back is livewithable--keeping in mind everyone would have the same handycap

From what Ive seen its a cheap way of racing. And it allows some mods to make it a bit more interesting

Im not fast but I did manage 1.10 at pukie with the factory rear shock on a carbied SV (lower power)

[HenryDorsetCase]

I simpathise with ya-BUT RIGHT NOW with only 6 or 7 pro twins actively being ridden it would be easy to change things.
Mate again I feel for ya-but 2k is an understatement surely
rear shock -If you're out to win I think RT charges 2k ish
plastics-no change from 1k painted
performance enhancing exhaust--why not its allowed $1500
Front end--shit skys the limit really
PC--$450
The tyre thing--yea good idea but then honestly ya should get a meeting a set from a pro twin anyhoo
By meeting of course you take the OFFICIAL time on track --2 timed practices and 3 10 lap races -maybee a 15 if ya lucky
Run last meetings tyres

if h\you have a HP cap you MUST have a minimum weight. because otherwise it gets eve more expensive when everyone runs BST wheels and titanium subframes and fairings made of crepe paper (Oh, I crash damaged the last lot...)

but you do talk a lot of sense.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Front end--shit skys the limit really


Yes please, a set of those gas pressurized Ohlins superbike forks. Oh, and I'll need some Marchesini forged wheels, and Brembo monoblocs.

[HenryDorsetCase]

some guys get carried away with building their bikes and lose the plot really and spend a crap load. Ive taken a bog standard naked SV650K7 ($9,995 suzuki fest price) to a faired racer for $1400. Thats including front and rear suspention, slip on pipe, clip ons and raising the OEM foot pegs and braided lines, OEM "S" fairing. anyone would think Im dutch but I want max bang for buck. now time to race...

good effort. I sold my SV after pricing that stuff and thinking I didnt want to spend that much money (on a streetbike).

[FROSTY]

My real issue is that with the rules as they stand cheating is waay to easy to do.AND to be up on the cutting edge you are gonna need the top ho suspension kit
its not really hard to boost compression and still have the bike look factory
Its not hard to have factory cams reground to a different profile
The protest system we have means that if someone has cheated then you have to be specific in naming what about the bike is cheat.

[Robert Taylor]

I simpathise with ya-BUT RIGHT NOW with only 6 or 7 pro twins actively being ridden it would be easy to change things.
Mate again I feel for ya-but 2k is an understatement surely
rear shock -If you're out to win I think RT charges 2k ish
plastics-no change from 1k painted
performance enhancing exhaust--why not its allowed $1500
Front end--shit skys the limit really
PC--$450
The tyre thing--yea good idea but then honestly ya should get a meeting a set from a pro twin anyhoo
By meeting of course you take the OFFICIAL time on track --2 timed practices and 3 10 lap races -maybee a 15 if ya lucky
Run last meetings tyres

Not allowing an aftermarket rear shock would raise the tyre bill significantly, FACT. Its not only that, the rear has to be raised to load the front and afford some ground clearance and steering precision. If we went back to the stone age and didnt allow aftermarket rear shocks I can assure you I personally would be doing some very sneaky mods inside the standard gap fillers that would be very very hard to detect without a suspension dyno. Also consider that heavyweight riders require firmer springing and aftermarket springs are either not available or very difficult to source for shocks on budget entry level bikes such as the SV650 never inteded for racing ( sorry thats exactly what they are ) So its unfair to penalise lightweight and heavyweight riders if they are only allowed to use the factory shock, given also that a reasonable spring rate change needs a complimentary valving change.

Most of the Ohlins shocks that I have sold for these are a lot closer to 1k than 2k, the over 2k ones are special handbuilt TTX36 by request and predominantly for the 2 points leaders in F3. These guys should not be victimised if they want to spend more money! They are not getting any younger and have to compensate in other areas. Bear in mind also that we provide a level of service that other players in the market just cannot hope to match.

Moreover if you oversimplify by having suspension with either very rudimentary or no adjustments the riders and their mechanics are all at sea when they move onto more elite classes where suspension setup skills are very essential. this is not only a class to further hone your riding skills, but also your setup skills.

If you want any experience with heavily regulated classes go to a kart meeting, the creative cheating and protest committes is an epidemic that breeds a lot of ill will......some of these guys are now in the Toyota racing series which have control shocks built by yours truly. I pulled a set apart just the other day to find that the internal valving had been illegally changed.

[FROSTY]

actually dude, dont bother about the power commander, doesnt do jack all on SV's, seriously! trust me on this!
they do if you fit say a M4 race system with the titaneum rear can.$1500 thank you ta -
Sorry to be a SA but full system is worth 3hp set up right
They breath so much better than the factory system that you need to be able to adjust the injection end

[speedpro]

That's the point. Any rules need to be easily verified which means keeping it simple - standard compression with a stated maximim pumping pressure for instance, standard cams, again with stated maximum lift and duration(and the method of measuring that). All standard bits in the motor with no permitted modification to those bits.

There is ways of cheating on one thing by also cheating on the other, for instance - up the compression but increase the cam timing which would drop the cranking pressure back down. Only found out if cam timing measured, not just cam profiles. Random checks would need to be made on say the top five for any meeting.

It'll be fun wording the rules to eliminate "confusion" and ambiguity and also to come up with something that is easily enforceable. Been there, you need to think "devious"!

[FROSTY]

Not allowing an aftermarket rear shock would raise the tyre bill significantly, FACT. Its not only that, the rear has to be raised to load the front and afford some ground clearance and steering precision. If we went back to the stone age and didnt allow aftermarket rear shocks I can assure you I personally would be doing some very sneaky mods inside the standard gap fillers that would be very very hard to detect without a suspension dyno. Also consider that heavyweight riders require firmer springing and aftermarket springs are either not available or very difficult to source for shocks on budget entry level bikes such as the SV650 never inteded for racing ( sorry thats exactly what they are ) So its unfair to penalise lightweight and heavyweight riders if they are only allowed to use the factory shock, given also that a reasonable spring rate change needs a complimentary valving change.

Most of the Ohlins shocks that I have sold for these are a lot closer to 1k than 2k, the over 2k ones are special handbuilt TTX36 by request and predominantly for the 2 points leaders in F3. These guys should not be victimised if they want to spend more money! They are not getting any younger and have to compensate in other areas. Bear in mind also that we provide a level of service that other players in the market just cannot hope to match.

Moreover if you oversimplify by having suspension with either very rudimentary or no adjustments the riders and their mechanics are all at sea when they move onto more elite classes where suspension setup skills are very essential. this is not only a class to further hone your riding skills, but also your setup skills.

If you want any experience with heavily regulated classes go to a kart meeting, the creative cheating and protest committes is an epidemic that breeds a lot of ill will......some of these guys are now in the Toyota racing series which have control shocks built by yours truly. I pulled a set apart just the other day to find that the internal valving had been illegally changed.
Dude no disrespect here but you have an axx to grind as soon as suspension is mentioned.
Im from the 250 proddie days--Ie RGV250 -so yea Im only too well aware of the difference between a "factory" rear shock and a factory rear shock
I think the RGV250 shock is a case in point.
However if everyone has the same "handycap" then the issue is?
The front shocks Im not suggesting NO adjustability Im suggesting restricting to a list of possible modifications within safety parameters.
Im pretty darn sure you could suggest a kit that would allow for reasonable adjustability for well under 1k

[FROSTY]

That's the point. Any rules need to be easily verified which means keeping it simple - standard compression with a stated maximim pumping pressure for instance, standard cams, again with stated maximum lift and duration(and the method of measuring that). All standard bits in the motor with no permitted modification to those bits.

There is ways of cheating on one thing by also cheating on the other, for instance - up the compression but increase the cam timing which would drop the cranking pressure back down. Only found out if cam timing measured, not just cam profiles. Random checks would need to be made on say the top five for any meeting.

It'll be fun wording the rules to eliminate "confusion" and ambiguity and also to come up with something that is easily enforceable. Been there, you need to think "devious"!
I think you have hit nail on head--current rules with cam sprocket slotting allowed to me is just screaming out for deliberate misinterpretation.
back to basics--no touching the injection/engine/exhaust except for end can -no room for interpretation there

[Robert Taylor]

Dude no disrespect here but you have an axx to grind as soon as suspension is mentioned.
Im from the 250 proddie days--Ie RGV250 -so yea Im only too well aware of the difference between a "factory" rear shock and a factory rear shock
I think the RGV250 shock is a case in point.
However if everyone has the same "handycap" then the issue is?
The front shocks Im not suggesting NO adjustability Im suggesting restricting to a list of possible modifications within safety parameters.
Im pretty darn sure you could suggest a kit that would allow for reasonable adjustability for well under 1k

Okay, run stock standard and just wait and see what will happen. You have misunderstood and the RGV example is a poor one. Low horsepower and low torque means less tyre tearing issues. And there was a modicum of adjustability in that shock, not great but a whole heap better than the very budget monotube gap fillers in SV, ER, etc
With the stock shock on ( for example ) the SV very lightweight riders and very heavy riders are much much more handicapped, FACT.
Throw in a Hyosung, the stock shock on that I wouldnt use for a door closing damper, its a real handicap. FACT
With many or all of the oem shocks on these budget level bikes there is little or no flexibility in adjustment to ''load'' the tyres correctly for proper grip and tyre longevity, FACT.
It would be possible to modify the stock shocks to have more flexibility but to keep the kit cost under 1k youd have to sell a lot to offset your development costs and to have made a fair and reasonable commercial return. Renember we only have 4 million people in Helengrad and seemingly half of them on welfare.
The reality is the work is already done for you with some good aftermarket options that are attuned to our track conditions. Sure its a lump of money at the start but a whole load less grief in the long run, and then youve still got something that is sought after that you can resell!
Sure Ive got an axe to grind but for sound technical, performance and safety reasons. What I dont get is that so many try to do things on the cheap ( we are overtaxed and underpaid ) but mostly end up doing it badly. Everyday I hear horror stories and fix other peoples cock ups because they have only enough knowledge to be dangerous.
Its also important that the rules are formulated by experts with in depth knowledge. Sure it aint ging to please everyone but I think the pro twins rules are mostly right. if we restrict it even further then we truly are becoming a third world banana republic run by morons....

[slowpoke]

Ok, looking at the times from the Nationals at Manfield I can't help asking myself exactly what we have achieved with the Pro Twin's class. The bikes are within a gnat's dick of the F3 bikes in outright performance so we have effectively done a Government trick of creating a beauracratic administration and enforcement nightmare to get something that is almost identical to what we've already got. Certainly to the uninformed they are identical.

I can see the point of F3 in that it is our only "free for all" class where thinking outside the box as far as bike prep and selection is concerned is encouraged. That's cool, it gives the bike builders and tech heads something to play with.

We already have cheap classes in Buckets, Historics, pre-89, Clubmans etc so cheap racing is already available to those wanting to dip a toe in and test the racing water. So what is Pro Twins doing for us? When I look at Trade Me and plug in "race" as a search for motorcycles there are a myriad of cheap options, and when I see Ray Clee's extremely high spec' 2003 GSXR1000 http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Other/auction-141945505.htm for sale for less than $10k there simply is not a valid argument that racing is too expensive in NZ. That thing would be the dog's danglers at any club meet and still competitive at all but the very top echelon nationally. Shaun is also selling a race prepped K5-6 GSXR1000 for less than $10k....a bargain in anyone's language.

My concern is that the young racers jumping into Pro Twins are learning how to race on slow, underpowered sports tourers rather than full on sports bikes. To paraphrase Craig Shirrifs, why learn to go slow? Shouldn't we be encouraging racers onto 600's and 1000's rather than something completely different? Note that the fast guys in F3 are the experienced racers who have done the hard yards on proper race bikes.

When I look at the likes of Sam Smith or Jay Lawrence, or Ben Spies (young AMA Superbike champion), Josh Brookes (young Oz supersport and superbike champion racing WSS) or even Casey Stoner, I don't see a Pro Twin adding any benefit whatsoever to their early careers. The trick seems to be to get them onto a proper racebike to learn proper race skills as soon as possible.

Looking at grids in Oz the supersport and superbike fields are bulging, with many club meets having to run multiple classes for different skill levels. Compare that to NZ where we struggle for numbers with only 13-14 entries at a premier national event, 3 of whom are from overseas. I don't see Pro Twins helping to reverse this and instead I think we need to encourage racers onto the international standard classes of 600-1000.

[k14]

When I look at the likes of Sam Smith or Jay Lawrence, or Ben Spies (young AMA Superbike champion), Josh Brookes (young Oz supersport and superbike champion racing WSS) or even Casey Stoner, I don't see a Pro Twin adding any benefit whatsoever to their early careers. The trick seems to be to get them onto a proper racebike to learn proper race skills as soon as possible.
Oo oo I know! 125GP :buggerd:

I don't agree with what you have said re pro twins. It is a really good, controlled and cheap way to get into racing. The problem with F3 is that the bikes are old and the list of modifications required for a "fast" bike is too long for the beginner racer to carry out and fund.

That gixxer thou you use as an example is a waste of time for anyone wanting to be competitive. It may be ok at club level (could possibly win with a very good rider), but at nationals you're wasting your time. Then you've got the tyre bill, one set a weekend pretty much the norm. 600's are the same, yes you can start on a bike that is ok for 12k but even if you're casey stoner you probably aren't going to be able to win on it. You're gonna need a budget of 50k+ to challenge the front of the pack.

I think in the end it all comes down to winning. A beginner with a limited budget hasn't got a shit show at winning in superbikes or supersport. But they could go and spend 10k on a SV650 and take out the local club champs in their first attempt. Not to mention the racecraft and setup skills they will learn from the close racing which can be carried on to superbikes/sport if they can get the funding to go further.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Ok, looking at the times from the Nationals at Manfield I can't help asking myself exactly what we have achieved with the Pro Twin's class. The bikes are within a gnat's dick of the F3 bikes in outright performance so we have effectively done a Government trick of creating a beauracratic administration and enforcement nightmare to get something that is almost identical to what we've already got. Certainly to the uninformed they are identical.

I can see the point of F3 in that it is our only "free for all" class where thinking outside the box as far as bike prep and selection is concerned is encouraged. That's cool, it gives the bike builders and tech heads something to play with.

We already have cheap classes in Buckets, Historics, pre-89, Clubmans etc so cheap racing is already available to those wanting to dip a toe in and test the racing water. So what is Pro Twins doing for us? When I look at Trade Me and plug in "race" as a search for motorcycles there are a myriad of cheap options, and when I see Ray Clee's extremely high spec' 2003 GSXR1000 http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Other/auction-141945505.htm for sale for less than $10k there simply is not a valid argument that racing is too expensive in NZ. That thing would be the dog's danglers at any club meet and still competitive at all but the very top echelon nationally. Shaun is also selling a race prepped K5-6 GSXR1000 for less than $10k....a bargain in anyone's language.

My concern is that the young racers jumping into Pro Twins are learning how to race on slow, underpowered sports tourers rather than full on sports bikes. To paraphrase Craig Shirrifs, why learn to go slow? Shouldn't we be encouraging racers onto 600's and 1000's rather than something completely different? Note that the fast guys in F3 are the experienced racers who have done the hard yards on proper race bikes.

When I look at the likes of Sam Smith or Jay Lawrence, or Ben Spies (young AMA Superbike champion), Josh Brookes (young Oz supersport and superbike champion racing WSS) or even Casey Stoner, I don't see a Pro Twin adding any benefit whatsoever to their early careers. The trick seems to be to get them onto a proper racebike to learn proper race skills as soon as possible.

Looking at grids in Oz the supersport and superbike fields are bulging, with many club meets having to run multiple classes for different skill levels. Compare that to NZ where we struggle for numbers with only 13-14 entries at a premier national event, 3 of whom are from overseas. I don't see Pro Twins helping to reverse this and instead I think we need to encourage racers onto the international standard classes of 600-1000.

answering for myself, I would love nothing more than to race a super bike (this is my goal) but at the moment I dont want to a tyre eater that is a 1000cc or supersport racer. I could afford to, but as RT has alluded to, due to NZ's relative low pay rates and high taxation, I would be sharing space under the bridge with homeless George, wrapt in cardboard, hugging a fresh road kill for a hottie to keep warm if I was to go down the superbike route. Even supersport bikes need plenty of fresh rubber on them to keep them at the pointy end and honestly I would rather spend the $300-500 needed per round for a set of tyres on dirty girls and beer, itll be more fun, lets face it.

Also, I am team manager, head mechanic, bike cleaner and head rider when Im out racing, I cant be arsed swappping tyres or fixing a tempermental bike. I just wanna hit the start button and race. Max fun for minimum outlay, that why we all got into bikes isnt it? My pro-twin is running used tyres and they should last at least a couple of rounds of races

I dont have mum and dad buying me stuff or offering assistance or any direst sponsership. Im just here learning what I need to do in order to become a faster racer without the distractions of the faster bikes.

When Im either a) fast enough to draw the welcome attention of sponsership or b) wealthier enough to fund my entry into the cheque book racing of supersport and superbike racing I will be running in a class where great financial backing is not a neccessity.

Im too big for 125, dont have the inclination to race a bucket, classics or post classic bikes have no appeal what so ever for this 25yr old and cant be stuffed playing with a 400cc f3 racer. Pro-twins is the logical step for myself and many who want cheap and fun racing.

Peace out.

Kyle

[slowpoke]

Oo oo I know! 125GP :buggerd:

I don't agree with what you have said re pro twins. It is a really good, controlled and cheap way to get into racing. The problem with F3 is that the bikes are old and the list of modifications required for a "fast" bike is too long for the beginner racer to carry out and fund.

There are other cheaper forms of bike racing already in place, especially if you are only just getting into it. Who said mods are necessary, a beginner is hardly going to be competitive anyway. As for old maintenance intensive bikes, we won't talk about 125's eh, LOL:girlfight:

That gixxer thou you use as an example is a waste of time for anyone wanting to be competitive. It may be ok at club level (could possibly win with a very good rider), but at nationals you're wasting your time. Then you've got the tyre bill, one set a weekend pretty much the norm. 600's are the same, yes you can start on a bike that is ok for 12k but even if you're casey stoner you probably aren't going to be able to win on it. You're gonna need a budget of 50k+ to challenge the front of the pack.

That Gixxer would easily be the fastest Vic Club bike out there and apart from Stroudie/Shirriffs and the Bernard bikes there wouldn't be much that was quicker nationally. Shirriffs turns up to a Manfield Vic Club round on his 600 and blows the handful of superbikes into the weeds, that's how much genuine talent and skill can overcome... having the latest and greatest is not the magic bullet to success. Same goes for Jay Lawrence last year when he munted his old Kwaka and borrowed a bog stock R6 for the Manfield round of the Nationals and finished top four (from memory) in the last race.

I think in the end it all comes down to winning. A beginner with a limited budget hasn't got a shit show at winning in superbikes or supersport. But they could go and spend 10k on a SV650 and take out the local club champs in their first attempt. Not to mention the racecraft and setup skills they will learn from the close racing which can be carried on to superbikes/sport if they can get the funding to go further.

I dunno, I guess we'll agree to disagree, but I reckon having a competitive machine is one thing but riders have got to be honest with themselves and take a look in the mirror before they start winging about lack of equity. I just look at the lack of numbers coming through to challenge the old stagers in the premier classes and I don't see Pro Twins or F3 addressing this.

[FROSTY]

Oo oo I know! 125GP :buggerd:

I don't agree with what you have said re pro twins. It is a really good, controlled and cheap way to get into racing. The problem with F3 is that the bikes are old and the list of modifications required for a "fast" bike is too long for the beginner racer to carry out and fund.

I think in the end it all comes down to winning. A beginner with a limited budget hasn't got a shit show at winning in superbikes or supersport. But they could go and spend 10k on a SV650 and take out the local club champs in their first attempt. Not to mention the racecraft and setup skills they will learn from the close racing which can be carried on to superbikes/sport if they can get the funding to go further.
Dude sorry but you are way out of date.
The Majority of F3 bikes at the pointy end are twins with the odd highly tuned 4 -reliablinity at the pointy end is not a moot point with most bikes under 5 years old.
Before saying Pro twins is the "cheap alternative" again do a comparison between the cost of building a F3 bike for the pointy end and a pro twins bike -there is no way you are gonna build a winning pro twins bike for under 10k.-unless you buy a wreck for 4k to base the build on.
RT just clearly stated-1k minimum for a rear shock and ohh no front shocks couldnt be done for under 1k
just do an add up of the parts needed and add that to the price of a base bike

Again--my argument-make em look factory,restrict mods to the basic safety requirements -suspension is it really and fit aftermarket bits that LOOK stock for crash damageable components.

OR--kick the twins outs F3 --but I think F3 would then die

[GSVR]

Doesn't matter what shocks an SV has it still won't wear tyres like a superbike.

What shocks did the Harley Sportsters run when the had that series? When Tim Gibbes had the rent a racer series what preparation did Brian Bernard do to prepare/maintain the bikes.

I just put an old carbed SV shock onto my injected SV and becuase its around 5mm longer. The difference to the way the bike steers around corners is so much better. Of course this could have also been achieved by fitting shorter dogbones. Both options almost no cost.

As for wearing out tyres. The slicks I have have done a couple of trackdays (way more use than a clubmeet) and I reacon I'll get at least 2 more.

If everyone in the field spends 2 grand on suspension they might all go a bit faster. If everyone in the field spends nothing maybe a couple of grossly overweight people may be upset but hey they can go on a diet.

A mistake I made with my bike was having too soft suspension. This only became obvious to me after riding two other race prepared SVs.

Jumping off my SV when it had a GSXR frontend to the Standard SV frontend was also interesting. The brakes as you have to squeeze them alot harder and you lose all the delicate feel of the better GSXR brakes.

Reason why a Hyosung would not be a good choice of ProTwin bike IMO is its brakes and theres no fix within the Protwin rules.

What makes ProTwins great is the fact they are different to 600s and 1000s. If you want to jump on a 600 and have a crashing good time go right ahead.

And slowpoke one of the better 600 riders at the moment Kyle Key did alot of his learning on an SV and a Motard bike so how does that fit into your theory?

[FROSTY]

answering for myself, I would love nothing more than to race a super bike (this is my goal) but at the moment I dont want to a tyre eater that is a 1000cc or supersport racer. I could afford to, but as RT has alluded to, due to NZ's relative low pay rates and high taxation, I would be sharing space under the bridge with homeless George, wrapt in cardboard, hugging a fresh road kill for a hottie to keep warm if I was to go down the superbike route. Even supersport bikes need plenty of fresh rubber on them to keep them at the pointy end and honestly I would rather spend the $300-500 needed per round for a set of tyres on dirty girls and beer, itll be more fun, lets face it.

Also, I am team manager, head mechanic, bike cleaner and head rider when Im out racing, I cant be arsed swappping tyres or fixing a tempermental bike. I just wanna hit the start button and race. Max fun for minimum outlay, that why we all got into bikes isnt it? My pro-twin is running used tyres and they should last at least a couple of rounds of races

I dont have mum and dad buying me stuff or offering assistance or any direst sponsership. Im just here learning what I need to do in order to become a faster racer without the distractions of the faster bikes.

When Im either a) fast enough to draw the welcome attention of sponsership or b) wealthier enough to fund my entry into the cheque book racing of supersport and superbike racing I will be running in a class where great financial backing is not a neccessity.

Im too big for 125, dont have the inclination to race a bucket, classics or post classic bikes have no appeal what so ever for this 25yr old and cant be stuffed playing with a 400cc f3 racer. Pro-twins is the logical step for myself and many who want cheap and fun racing.

Peace out.

Kyle
Ill throw a curve ball atya--what if the pro twins rules were as I suggested--and a 75hp limit so motors werent getting over stressed
wouldnt that make for CHEAPER racing at the base level?

[GSVR]

Before saying Pro twins is the "cheap alternative" again do a comparison between the cost of building a F3 bike for the pointy end and a pro twins bike -there is no way you are gonna build a winning pro twins bike for under 10k.-unless you buy a wreck for 4k to base the build on.

Just ask Deano what his cost?

Jarrod Wintle what he paid for Kyle Keys old bike.

David Cookes bike seemed competitive and I bet if you offered him considerably less than 10 grand he'd snap at it.

And building a pointy end F3 bike? I don't even want to go there as it might be a sensitive subject for some.
How much have you and Jill spent on your engine rebuilds? Your lucky as yours haven't gone bang yet!

The truth is you could build a ProTwin very cheaply with second hand fairings and components and put a good rider on it and it will win races. It may not look a million dollars.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Ill throw a curve ball atya--what if the pro twins rules were as I suggested--and a 75hp limit so motors werent getting over stressed
wouldnt that make for CHEAPER racing at the base level?

I agree 100%. would make for very cheap and close racing :>

but as I have stated I have built one up for $1400 and it should be competitive with the right riding. Im sure Carl Morgon could jump on it and still do similar times to his super fast nationals times. But yes, reducing the number of mods as per your suggestion would make this entry level racing less dire to the wallet in the initial build stage.

Of interest though, Carl Morgon didnt run emulators in the forks and used a gsxr1000 spec WP shock that Ray Clee had kicking around, with old fairings, so his build was budget too, just goes to show what can be done with the SV's with awesome riding!

kyle

[Cleve]

Frosty your long and old go at the horsepower restrictions just isn't possible or realistic in my opinion. If road race stewards aren't even sure of the rules at one circuit (see an earlier thread) how on earth can we expect every circuit and bike club around the country to have equal ability and knowledge to monitor this?
Also the argument against aftermarket shocks for the class based on cost just doesn't wash. A 2nd hand ohlins vs price of a rebuild of standard shock would be negligible in the total amount spent over a season. I mean a trailer could cost more than an ohlins shock. Then as RT has so wisely stated (as he often does) the number of reasons to go for an aftermarket shock even if the cost were a bigger factor would still argue in favour of allowing them.
I would prefer PT's to allow front end suspension swops as well (from road based models only to keep costs low - surely a 2nd hand ex GSXR front end would costs about as much as a major rebuild? And have better brakes?!) I also don't see the need to have "factory look" in PT. One of the things I like about F3 is the many varied styles of SV out there. Personality and an individuality of some sort...
In other words my preference for PT is F3 without the major engine mods (on production based twins of 650cc).

The answer for the Pro Twins/F3 place in NZ racing appears to be the same regardless what the question was in the first place.
Do you see Pro Twins as a class for young up and comers to learn their craft (overtaking and beating other riders on similar spec machinery)? Perhaps for a season between 125GP and 600 SP?
Do you see PT as a cheap and cheerful fairly hassle free national class to retire to or have fun in?
Do you see hordes of similar spec machinery in tightly contested battles being interesting for spectators and riders themselves?

Yes to all the above?

One of reasons for keeping F3 going (in tandem with PT) is for the "one off" bike to be built. For the No. 8 wire kiwi ingenuity type to go forth and produce. Mind you lately in F3 there does seem to be a lack of that...
(Where is the, as Gavin HDT boy once suggested to me, R6 sleeved down to 450cc or the Aprilia supermotard motor in a 125 frame etc etc??)

In F3 we have a class that is currently dominated by SV's (in numbers and top finishing results). It is not the fault of the SV and they shouldn't be punished or blamed for it as some tend to do. Imagine if Suzuki had a 2008 GSXR 400 or Yamaha built an R4! AND Suzuki never built the SV. Then the closest competition from a Vtwin 650 in F3 would be a Honda Bros!!

Keep the debate coming...

[Keystone19]

How much have you and Jill spent on your engine rebuilds? Your lucky as yours haven't gone bang yet!



Actually not a hell of a lot more than it would have cost me to just have the engine freshened up.

I now have one of the fastest F3 bikes on the circuit. Its not the bike that's a problem, its the rider!

I hope it will go to someone who can really ride it at the pointy end.

I will be running a protwin that will be both my road bike and my race bike using the same tyres etc. I just can't afford to run two bikes and race another national series or even a club series after this season. Or perhaps I should word that as I choose to spend some of my money on other things.

But I do not intend to give up racing nor do I intend to give up conitinuing to develop myself as a rider and racer. In fact, I think a return to a bog standard bike (plus allowed suspension mods) will do more for my riding than my souped up SV.

I agree with you Gary, it doesn't have to be an expensive class.

[roogazza]

In fact, I think a return to a bog standard bike (plus allowed suspension mods) will do more for my riding than my souped up SV.

Hit the nail on the head with that one Keystone ! I think so many people could benefit from doing just that ! They get so tied up they miss the basics !!! Gaz.

[slowpoke]

And slowpoke one of the better 600 riders at the moment Kyle Key did alot of his learning on an SV and a Motard bike so how does that fit into your theory?

We'll obviously never know, but how good would he be if he'd spent his SV time on a 600? He might now be racing a Superbike.....


Frosty your long and old go at the horsepower restrictions just isn't possible or realistic in my opinion. If road race stewards aren't even sure of the rules at one circuit (see an earlier thread) how on earth can we expect every circuit and bike club around the country to have equal ability and knowledge to monitor this?

Yup, HP limiting is not a practical solution. Dyno's are notoriously fickle instruments and standardised testing is almost impossible. A cold wet day at Invercargill is going to give completely different results to a dry hot day at altitude at Taupo...not to mention someone has to pay for the dyno and/or dyno time. Even air restrictors aren't the answer as people spend all sorts of money to fatten up the torque curve.

The answer for the Pro Twins/F3 place in NZ racing appears to be the same regardless what the question was in the first place.
Do you see Pro Twins as a class for young up and comers to learn their craft (overtaking and beating other riders on similar spec machinery)? Perhaps for a season between 125GP and 600 SP?
Do you see PT as a cheap and cheerful fairly hassle free national class to retire to or have fun in?
Do you see hordes of similar spec machinery in tightly contested battles being interesting for spectators and riders themselves?

Yes to all the above?

More good points. The conundrum seems to be is the series designed to foster the best racers, the best racing, or the best/most interesting machinery? Equal machinery guarantees close racing, but depending on the machinery involved doesn't guarantee the best tuition for a racer. As an analogy: if you wanted to create high quality racing drivers capable of racing a V8 supercar, you'd ideally having them racing in the V8 Development Series not the Mini Challenge series. The different configuration, lack of power etc doesn't foster the appropriate skills despite the relative cost and closeness of the racing and so it follows for Pro Twins.

One of reasons for keeping F3 going (in tandem with PT) is for the "one off" bike to be built. For the No. 8 wire kiwi ingenuity type to go forth and produce. Mind you lately in F3 there does seem to be a lack of that...
(Where is the, as Gavin HDT boy once suggested to me, R6 sleeved down to 450cc or the Aprilia supermotard motor in a 125 frame etc etc??)

Haha, rather than a sleeved down R6, imagine a de-stroked R6, imagine the revs that puppy could pull...only dogs would be able to hear it!

In F3 we have a class that is currently dominated by SV's (in numbers and top finishing results). It is not the fault of the SV and they shouldn't be punished or blamed for it as some tend to do. Imagine if Suzuki had a 2008 GSXR 400 or Yamaha built an R4! AND Suzuki never built the SV. Then the closest competition from a Vtwin 650 in F3 would be a Honda Bros!!

Keep the debate coming...

Ultimately racing is like life: it's not fair. When you are out in the big wide racing world there are always going to be fast bikes and slow bikes. An R6 has the wood on everything else at the moment, the Fireblade has climbed to the top of the pile again, that's just the way development goes. But the non-R6 or 'blade mounted people don't spit the dummy in the dirt or throw the trike into the bushes, they just get on with it and take extra delight in beating a superior bike. To those in the know performing well on an under-funded or uncompetitive bike is just as impressive as winning on a superior machine. Check out Dom Jones as a case in point.

[Robert Taylor]

I agree 100%. would make for very cheap and close racing :>

but as I have stated I have built one up for $1400 and it should be competitive with the right riding. Im sure Carl Morgon could jump on it and still do similar times to his super fast nationals times. But yes, reducing the number of mods as per your suggestion would make this entry level racing less dire to the wallet in the initial build stage.

Of interest though, Carl Morgon didnt run emulators in the forks and used a gsxr1000 spec WP shock that Ray Clee had kicking around, with old fairings, so his build was budget too, just goes to show what can be done with the SV's with awesome riding!

kyle Lucky then he didnt fit emulators as he would have been faster.

[Robert Taylor]

Ill throw a curve ball atya--what if the pro twins rules were as I suggested--and a 75hp limit so motors werent getting over stressed
wouldnt that make for CHEAPER racing at the base level?

Thats got merit, the only issue being trackside dyno verification would be required to police effectively.

[Ivan]

The problem I find with this is that if a person with a good engine built with good tolerances and does everything correctly but in the rules can actually gain more horsepower by keeping a bike in good state of tune,

To as say someone who buildsa bike slaps an exhaust on doesnt seal the exhaust properly doesnt do anything to muck around with refuelling issues and just thrashes it his engine could have less power.

I think so long as these rulesstay as they are itl be sweet

[Robert Taylor]

Doesn't matter what shocks an SV has it still won't wear tyres like a superbike.

What shocks did the Harley Sportsters run when the had that series? When Tim Gibbes had the rent a racer series what preparation did Brian Bernard do to prepare/maintain the bikes.

I just put an old carbed SV shock onto my injected SV and becuase its around 5mm longer. The difference to the way the bike steers around corners is so much better. Of course this could have also been achieved by fitting shorter dogbones. Both options almost no cost.

As for wearing out tyres. The slicks I have have done a couple of trackdays (way more use than a clubmeet) and I reacon I'll get at least 2 more.

If everyone in the field spends 2 grand on suspension they might all go a bit faster. If everyone in the field spends nothing maybe a couple of grossly overweight people may be upset but hey they can go on a diet.

A mistake I made with my bike was having too soft suspension. This only became obvious to me after riding two other race prepared SVs.

Jumping off my SV when it had a GSXR frontend to the Standard SV frontend was also interesting. The brakes as you have to squeeze them alot harder and you lose all the delicate feel of the better GSXR brakes.

Reason why a Hyosung would not be a good choice of ProTwin bike IMO is its brakes and theres no fix within the Protwin rules.

What makes ProTwins great is the fact they are different to 600s and 1000s. If you want to jump on a 600 and have a crashing good time go right ahead.

And slowpoke one of the better 600 riders at the moment Kyle Key did alot of his learning on an SV and a Motard bike so how does that fit into your theory?

Like I eluded to in my previous posts we dont need to keep fostering a third world mentality. If we keep thinking like that...well that is exactly like what we will be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Without even the most basic mods damper rods ( as fitted oem to SV and ER etc ) are in fact potentially dangerous because they afford only very poor pitch control under braking. And an older model SV shock may have worked okay for your own ''unchallenging'' weight. That is your choice, but people who want something better ( within reason ) and are determined to do so should not be penalised or indeed victimised by the kiwi tall poppy syndrome. Thankfully we dont all subscibe to the central government initiated ''dumbing down'' mentality. You personally know how much work we did developing a TTX36 rear spec with Glenn, a lot of hard work, probably more so than the return and ever mindful of the knockers out there who are always present to criticise the success of ones work. At the pointy end of the field we have already found the ''seconds'' improvement to get there and are therfore looking for extra tenths. Inevitably the work and cost goes up paraboloically compared to the return. That is mine and the customers choice. If the rules were further restricted you would still invariably find the same riders at the pointy end, and as I previously said I would personally find the most devious ways of finding advantage because I have the equipment ( and dare I say so ) the tenacity to do so.

Apples for apples the same rider who rides / compares a budget modded bike against a well sorted bike with decent suspenders on it will lap faster and more safely on the latter option.

Heck, shall I fit a set of Ohlins 17,000 gas Superbike forks to an SV and TTX40 rear to really prove the point? Now that would be overkill and arrogant, so again I say the pro-twin suspension rules are largely right.

Frostys and Jills suggestions about restricting what can be done with the motors has got merit. That is where costs can be more sensibly trimmed if need be. If though as I beleive there will be a much larger field of pro twins next season...then people will have mostly embraced the rules.

[Cleve]

Haha, rather than a sleeved down R6, imagine a de-stroked R6, imagine the revs that puppy could pull...only dogs would be able to hear it!

ooops yeah de stroked is what I should have said...?

[Billy]

Cant seem to get into the MNZ website to reread Paul Stewarts original letter RE the introduction of the Pro twins class,But from memory his thinking was to introduce the class this year and then over a period of time(not specified) it would replace F3.As far as a low level feeder class is concerned things got out of hand with the introduction of suspension mods,Power commanders,Full exhaust systems,Full bodykits and so on.As a feeder class it should be,Standard roadbike with replica fibreglass if required,Sticky tyres and a slip on muffler only.Everything else bar fork oil and gearing should have been left standard.I know theres gonna be people out there who disagree citing safety etc.But if everybody is in the same boat then costs are reduced dramatically and its down to the rider to win the races not somebodys cheque book.As far as safety is concerned,A motorcycle is only as dangerous as you make it and it would be a brave person who said nobody ever crashes while using Ohlins/Whitepower/Penske etc.A lot of people I spoke to were keen to enter the Pro twins class until the the final rules were released and they saw how expensive it was gonna be.Sam Love spent in excess of $20,000.00 buiding a bike that could have been built for less than $10,000.00 under the above rules and $10,000.00 buys a shitload of tyres/travel/accomodation etc.I wonder how many would have been on the grid at Ruapuna under the above format.Food for thought

[speedpro]

I wanna race a superbike, but it's too expensive so I want the rules changed to make it cheap enough for me. Only trouble is if they managed to make a set of rules that restricted the cost enough to make it affordable for me it wouldn't be superbike any more. No matter what you do with the rules not everybody is going to be able to afford to go racing and it isn't anybody's job to make affordable for everybody. Some people will never be able to afford a race bike. That's just how it is - life sucks. As for some people spending more than others, good on them for being keen enough and also for having the cash to do it. There will always be sometimes vastly different sums spent even within the same class.

[Billy]

I wanna race a superbike, but it's too expensive so I want the rules changed to make it cheap enough for me. Only trouble is if they managed to make a set of rules that restricted the cost enough to make it affordable for me it wouldn't be superbike any more. No matter what you do with the rules not everybody is going to be able to afford to go racing and it isn't anybody's job to make affordable for everybody. Some people will never be able to afford a race bike. That's just how it is - life sucks. As for some people spending more than others, good on them for being keen enough and also for having the cash to do it. There will always be sometimes vastly different sums spent even within the same class.

A very sensible well thought out point you make and in most respects I agree wholeheartedly with you.However I was alluding to a low cost level entry class with only a few easy to spot modifications with the current 1 pr of tyres per round rule I fail to see how anybody CAN spend more money and stay within the rules.Oh and while we are on the subject,No matter what the pro twins rules are I personally wouldnt be racing one if thats what you were thinking was the reason behind my post

[FROSTY]

The problem I find with this is that if a person with a good engine built with good tolerances and does everything correctly but in the rules can actually gain more horsepower by keeping a bike in good state of tune,

To as say someone who buildsa bike slaps an exhaust on doesnt seal the exhaust properly doesnt do anything to muck around with refuelling issues and just thrashes it his engine could have less power.

I think so long as these rules stay as they are itl be sweet
Thats ALWAYS going to be the case. No matter what the class rules are.
600ss is like that
The point being really that the less modifications that are allowed the less opertunity there is for cheating.

Ive seen what happened to 250 proddy in the end and hate the idea of pro twins goin the same way

That said -going back full circle the other alternative is to make pro twins an open slather class and make F3 400 multis and 500 twins like it used to be.

[FROSTY]

OK ROBERT,Shaun,jd racing,ozzie ----can I ask you a question --not wanting to put you on the spot.
What would be the cost for a SAFE suspension kit for the ER6 and the SV650 --Forget cutting edge here just enough to bring the suspension to a level you concider safe for racing.
--Here's my thought - have a list of CONTROL suspenders available --eg a base level ohlins,a Penske on the rear and um--emulators,springs,oil mods in the front.
The idea being ok no compromise on safety BUT keep the spend within controlled limits

[FROSTY]

I wanna race a superbike, but it's too expensive so I want the rules changed to make it cheap enough for me. Only trouble is if they managed to make a set of rules that restricted the cost enough to make it affordable for me it wouldn't be superbike any more. No matter what you do with the rules not everybody is going to be able to afford to go racing and it isn't anybody's job to make affordable for everybody. Some people will never be able to afford a race bike. That's just how it is - life sucks. As for some people spending more than others, good on them for being keen enough and also for having the cash to do it. There will always be sometimes vastly different sums spent even within the same class.

I think dude you have expressed the nub of the issue
What is the INTENT of PT??
Is it to be1) the entry level class for up and comers from the 150 class to move onto -
OR 2)is the class to replace F3 due to the ageing of the F3 "fleet"?

[Robert Taylor]

OK ROBERT,Shaun,jd racing,ozzie ----can I ask you a question --not wanting to put you on the spot.
What would be the cost for a SAFE suspension kit for the ER6 and the SV650 --Forget cutting edge here just enough to bring the suspension to a level you concider safe for racing.
--Here's my thought - have a list of CONTROL suspenders available --eg a base level ohlins,a Penske on the rear and um--emulators,springs,oil mods in the front.
The idea being ok no compromise on safety BUT keep the spend within controlled limits

Around 2k for front and rear inclusive assuming no dutch auctions. As I have stated before the learning of suspension set up skills is important for when you move on to more elite classes. Btw, WP was another option

[Robert Taylor]

Thats ALWAYS going to be the case. No matter what the class rules are.
600ss is like that
The point being really that the less modifications that are allowed the less opertunity there is for cheating.

Ive seen what happened to 250 proddy in the end and hate the idea of pro twins goin the same way

That said -going back full circle the other alternative is to make pro twins an open slather class and make F3 400 multis and 500 twins like it used to be.

I concur Frosty. Production Superbike had the engine rules ''massaged'' kast year to make it cheaper. The unit time to build a competitive engine has now magnified and the bills are larger. It is importnat that rules are made by people who actually know the technical ins and outs.

[Robert Taylor]

I wanna race a superbike, but it's too expensive so I want the rules changed to make it cheap enough for me. Only trouble is if they managed to make a set of rules that restricted the cost enough to make it affordable for me it wouldn't be superbike any more. No matter what you do with the rules not everybody is going to be able to afford to go racing and it isn't anybody's job to make affordable for everybody. Some people will never be able to afford a race bike. That's just how it is - life sucks. As for some people spending more than others, good on them for being keen enough and also for having the cash to do it. There will always be sometimes vastly different sums spent even within the same class.

Well said, it should remain as a class where the technology is not victimised.

[FROSTY]

It is importnat that rules are made by people who actually know the technical ins and outs.
Yep I agree. (gosh Robert don't tell anyone)

[Robert Taylor]

Cant seem to get into the MNZ website to reread Paul Stewarts original letter RE the introduction of the Pro twins class,But from memory his thinking was to introduce the class this year and then over a period of time(not specified) it would replace F3.As far as a low level feeder class is concerned things got out of hand with the introduction of suspension mods,Power commanders,Full exhaust systems,Full bodykits and so on.As a feeder class it should be,Standard roadbike with replica fibreglass if required,Sticky tyres and a slip on muffler only.Everything else bar fork oil and gearing should have been left standard.I know theres gonna be people out there who disagree citing safety etc.But if everybody is in the same boat then costs are reduced dramatically and its down to the rider to win the races not somebodys cheque book.As far as safety is concerned,A motorcycle is only as dangerous as you make it and it would be a brave person who said nobody ever crashes while using Ohlins/Whitepower/Penske etc.A lot of people I spoke to were keen to enter the Pro twins class until the the final rules were released and they saw how expensive it was gonna be.Sam Love spent in excess of $20,000.00 buiding a bike that could have been built for less than $10,000.00 under the above rules and $10,000.00 buys a shitload of tyres/travel/accomodation etc.I wonder how many would have been on the grid at Ruapuna under the above format.Food for thought

Of course people crash with top level suspension kit fitted, usually at higher speeds. But the abysmal hydraulic control with especially oem damper rod forks mean that such bikes are easier to crash.

I dont hear Sam Love complaining and to say you can build a pro twins bike for under 10k assumes that there is a plentiful supply of second hand units. Excepting grey imports that mentality assumes that there are plenty of people buying these units new and that they are taking the hit on depreciation to feed racers habits. There is no free lunch for everybody.

If you want cheap then buckets beckon or maybe something like racing those ridiculous mopeds in Malaysia and Thailand.

The costs are a given, maybe we should all be looking at the root causes of why our standard of living and the very cost of living has worsened dramatically over the last decade or more.

And as I said before if we start thinking in 3rd world terms that is exactly what we will become. Aspiring to do things well is a whole lot better than mediocrity.

[Billy]

Of course people crash with top level suspension kit fitted, usually at higher speeds. But the abysmal hydraulic control with especially oem damper rod forks mean that such bikes are easier to crash.

I dont hear Sam Love complaining and to say you can build a pro twins bike for under 10k assumes that there is a plentiful supply of second hand units. Excepting grey imports that mentality assumes that there are plenty of people buying these units new and that they are taking the hit on depreciation to feed racers habits. There is no free lunch for everybody.

If you want cheap then buckets beckon or maybe something like racing those ridiculous mopeds in Malaysia and Thailand.

The costs are a given, maybe we should all be looking at the root causes of why our standard of living and the very cost of living has worsened dramatically over the last decade or more.

And as I said before if we start thinking in 3rd world terms that is exactly what we will become. Aspiring to do things well is a whole lot better than mediocrity.

Would be really helpful Robert if you could read the whole post and not just the bits that affect your business.IF you had you would have noticed firstly that nobody was suggesting you could build a Pro twins bike for under 10k under the current format,Rather under a revised format,Secondly,Re Sam Loves bike.The point was not whether He was happy with the package,Rather whether he should have needed to spend so much.After all you need to know the basics before moving on to the technical side and as there is no other class outside of streetstock where better to learn than Pro twins.I would suggest you go back and reread the post so you understand it completely before commenting.Have a nice day

[k14]

and as there is no other class outside of streetstock where better to learn than Pro twins.
If pro twins and streetstock are the only classes to "learn" then what is 125 for?

[johnsv650]

how much better are the ttx shocks over the 3 or 4 year old shocks, glenw and terrys over teh rest of the f3 feild and how much better are the forks you worked on in aussy over the current ones......
john

[Shaun]

Around 2k for front and rear inclusive assuming no dutch auctions. As I have stated before the learning of suspension set up skills is important for when you move on to more elite classes. Btw, WP was another option



Sounds about write Rob RE costs of the equipment- I do fully agree with you on the learning curve involved in setting up suspension, BUT, ( Hope Some one else you know is not reading this) The whole idea ( Or so I believed) when the Pro Twins class idea came up, was as an introductory class for young riders:clap:

Yes, the standard sus on these bikes is not any thing to write home about, but the wheels do keep turning, if you do not crash them. AND WE ALL DRIVE IN THE RAIN ON OUR STANDARD CAR TYRES AND BIKE TYRES AND GET BY. Maybe, we can actually learn more?

SO, it is possible for the young riders (ie, as I thought, THE INTRODUCTORY CLASS) to actually get out there racing modern 4 Stroke bikes, and cutting there teeth for the move up to the 600 class, where the full Suspension options are available.

2K suspension
750 FAIRINGS
300 FAIRING BRACKETS
1000+ FULL RACE PIPE
350 MIN AFT MK FOOT PEGS


And I,ve just built a cheap one, based on todays rules?

[Shaun]

You're funny! - My bike was the oldest shittiest most `standard' fuggin road bike out there! I'd gladly swap for a new SV with racing subframes light bodywork braided lines no lights new pirellis changed by Dad before the first race that I hadnt done a race meeting on + ridden 300kays to the track + practised/qualified on etc, etc.
Nearly as funny as Bos's dad calling me a `cheat' for having black backgrounds on my number plates (/saddlebag scuff protectors).
(nb/ We should put them all on a dyno like production racing everywhere else in the world - my bike makes 70hp exactly)


Aaaaaaaha, so you were the prat on that piece of shite looking thing

[slowpoke]

Would be really helpful Robert if you could read the whole post and not just the bits that affect your business.IF you had you would have noticed firstly that nobody was suggesting you could build a Pro twins bike for under 10k under the current format,Rather under a revised format,Secondly,Re Sam Loves bike.The point was not whether He was happy with the package,Rather whether he should have needed to spend so much.After all you need to know the basics before moving on to the technical side and as there is no other class outside of streetstock where better to learn than Pro twins.I would suggest you go back and reread the post so you understand it completely before commenting.Have a nice day

Ease up big fullah....eeeeeeaaaasse uuuuppp. Robert is just participating in the discussion, and from a quite unique perspective, so berating him is not really fostering the exchange of ideas. "Write in anger, but save in draft" when you get wound up has been a helpful bit of advice I once received.

As for there being no other class outside of streetstock to learn your craft, I disagree. An old F3 bike is as cheap as chips, as is a not quite up to the minute 600 which you could race in Clubman's, 600's and/or Superbikes. GP125's are also very cheap to pick up, which if you are the right body shape is surely the ultimate skills academy.

A three or four year old R6 or the like isn't going to be at the extreme pointy end but if it's well ridden and well set up will still show the way to a lesser rider on a later machine. Not to mention at club rounds you'll be able to cross enter into the Superbike field and score double the races in a weekend.

So what is our ultimate goal here? I mean we need to know where we are going, what we are trying to acheive, before we set a course to get there. If it's just a cheap form of bike racing, bums on seats, then Pro Twins is probably a good way to go. But if we are trying to create riders in our own backyard capable of challenging Stroud, Shirriffs, Clee, Rees etc then I don't think we are on the right track. Instead riders will still face the prospect of having to go overseas like Dennis Charlett, Sam Smith, Dom Jones etc to learn the requisite skills.

I look at guys like Josh Brookes in Oz who won the 2001 Oz Supersport championship as a privateer teenager, and went on to win a round of the WSS and be only the second guy ever to win the Oz Supersport/Superbike double and I don't see a Pro Twin type ride helping him in anyway whatsoever. Josh Waters is well on the same path and they just seem to keep churning out international standard riders, without a Pro Twin type bike in sight. The same goes for the States where young Ben Spies has broken Mat Mladin's stranglehold in the AMA Superbikes, although the money is too good for the best Americans to leave for the world stage. Same in Britain where the R6 Cup is a proving ground for the up and comers, not to mention the Spainish assembly line of hardcore GP racing.

I maintain that if we ever hope to see a home grown Kiwi do well on the world stage again then we need to get youngsters onto proper fully adjustable race bikes with a reasonable power to weight ratio as soon as possible.

[GSVR]

I maintain that if we ever hope to see a home grown Kiwi do well on the world stage again then we need to get youngsters onto proper fully adjustable race bikes with a reasonable power to weight ratio as soon as possible.

Get the youngsters onto dirt bikes. People that did alot of dirtbike riding when they where young all seem to have an edge over ones that didn't.

slowpoke I think I have a handle on your veiws now: There is no place for SV650s or ProTwin racing as New Zealand will never have any good racers if they learn to ride on these types of bikes right?



Like I eluded to in my previous posts we dont need to keep fostering a third world mentality. If we keep thinking like that...well that is exactly like what we will be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Without even the most basic mods damper rods ( as fitted oem to SV and ER etc ) are in fact potentially dangerous because they afford only very poor pitch control under braking. And an older model SV shock may have worked okay for your own ''unchallenging'' weight. That is your choice, but people who want something better ( within reason ) and are determined to do so should not be penalised or indeed victimised by the kiwi tall poppy syndrome..

If I was to fit a 190 section Superbike tyre to my 4 1/5 inch SV rim which according to some tyre manufacturers is too narrow for a 160 section should I be allowed to race as this and potentually put other racers at risk with this unrecommended combination?.

Plenty of standard unmodified SVs do trackdays and surprisingly they crash or run off the track alot less than learners on bigger bikes.

I'm not trying to adopt a third world mentality. If the ProTwin class cost 1/2 what it does today to compete in it would become viable for alot more younger people who may otherwise go no further than Streetstock.

I really don't see it as a class for X New Zealand champions but a great class for riders without rich daddys or plenty of dispossable income to have a fair crack at racing and being competitive.

If anyone considers the class to budget they can always get a Supersport bike like others have done but most of them don't last long as theres too many expense crash repair bills.

Young guy starting out has a huge amount of expenses. Keep Protwin as cheap as possible and if someone wants to spend megabucks they can race in F3 or Supersport if they think they can meet the standard and not take out other riders.

If a rider makes a modest outlay to get an SV on the track and decides racing isn't for them then a complete ready to race package becomes available for someone else.

If there is a safety issue with SVs without emulators and aftermarket shocks is it not irresponsable for MNZ to allow these bikes on the track if they haven't been made potentually safe?

[johnsv650]

a 190 tyre on a 4.5 rim ........lol

[johnsv650]

the pro twin clas is infact two classes, the 20 and under and the 20 and over, i think mnz have even overlooked this.......

[Clivoris]

a 190 tyre on a 4.5 rim ........lol

There has been talk around the pits recently that this might be the latest performance tip for the SV. I wouldn't have a clue, but it will be interesting to see how many people actually try this.

[GSVR]

There has been talk around the pits recently that this might be the latest performance tip for the SV. I wouldn't have a clue, but it will be interesting to see how many people actually try this.

I reacon post it in the "Wheel tyres and brakes" section and see what response the experts on here give!

[Clivoris]

I reacon post it in the "Wheel tyres and brakes" section and see what response the experts on here give!

:laugh:Life's too short mate.

[svr]

Aaaaaaaha, so you were the prat on that piece of shite looking thing
Didn't know looks were that important, Shaun.

[Shaun]

Didn't know looks were that important, Shaun.



WOOPS, Sorry dude I was actually trying to have a joke with ya, I had determined from your posts, that you are not a fassion victim, nor a pretender

So my comment was just meant as a laugh mate

Sorry if it came across offensive

[Robert Taylor]

Would be really helpful Robert if you could read the whole post and not just the bits that affect your business.IF you had you would have noticed firstly that nobody was suggesting you could build a Pro twins bike for under 10k under the current format,Rather under a revised format,Secondly,Re Sam Loves bike.The point was not whether He was happy with the package,Rather whether he should have needed to spend so much.After all you need to know the basics before moving on to the technical side and as there is no other class outside of streetstock where better to learn than Pro twins.I would suggest you go back and reread the post so you understand it completely before commenting.Have a nice day

Going to have to agree to disagree. Learning is also learning about bike setup BASICS and such skills need to be introduced as early as possible in a riders career. We are in 2008, not 1978. I think also it needs to be considered that a hell of a lot of people put a lot into this sport in NZ through sheer goodwill. In real terms it is probably a lot cheaper to race here than in other countries. In the fullness of time we shall see if this class prospers or falters.
Incidentally I was consulted on the rules and recommended standard forks and that emulators and springs were the only allowable rods for machines with damper rod forks. So its an $800 job rather than an up to $3k cartridge job. So costs being kept within a reasonable level were part of the brief.

[Robert Taylor]

If pro twins and streetstock are the only classes to "learn" then what is 125 for?

And its fed into 600s some top level riders such as Sam Smith, Nick Cole etc. Its a great class.

[k14]

And its fed into 600s some top level riders such as Sam Smith, Nick Cole etc. Its a great class.
The exact point I was trying to make. In the last few years I can't think of anyone who has made the jump into 600s from F3 and had any decent. There is a small handful of 125 riders that have. People are too quick to dismiss 125's for being "high maintenance" but none of these people have actually had any experience with them.

[speedpro]

That Charlott chap had a go on a 125 once, and a bucket, and that whippersnapper Shirriff has been seen on a bucket as well. Not that I'm suggesting buckets are a good feeder for the "real" classes.

[Tim 39]

125's are awesome!!! the more I race them the mroe I like them!
my (biased) opinion is that 125GP would teach at least as much race craft as any other class, therefor has to be good for future pursuits right?

[Shaun]

125's are awesome!!! the more I race them the mroe I like them!
my (biased) opinion is that 125GP would teach at least as much race craft as any other class, therefor has to be good for future pursuits right?


Gotta agree with ya Kirk

[Robert Taylor]

how much better are the ttx shocks over the 3 or 4 year old shocks, glenw and terrys over teh rest of the f3 feild and how much better are the forks you worked on in aussy over the current ones......
john

Thats a very good question. If I may be permitted to be cynical I must be careful how I reply because the ''budget police'' will be analysing my every word!!!!
Its a little hard to quantify, Glen Williams has been able to punt his machine around at very high corner speeds with the chassis being very stable and not looking as if its right on the edge. Like Terry Fitz ( who also runs one ) hes not getting any younger and perhaps has an age induced sense of self preservation. Look at young Steve Wood ( have I got his name right? ) Hes prepared to hang it right on the edge with his more standard spec Ohlins rear and can periodically hang with these guys. And may I say what a talent and very polite and likable to boot. A model of attitude in that he aspires to improve and I wish him the very best re same.

It would therefore be interesting to do a subjective test with such a rider, ''standard'' spec against TTX36, ditto for cartridges. Around Manfield? Maybe a second, maybe 1.5 seconds. The sad reality is that the relativity between dollars spent and lap time reduction is a prabolic curve. No argument with that.

This just happened when Glen asked if there was a TTX36 listed for SV650 and the answer is of course no. What we do is to modify a GSXR1000 TTX36 to fit and we spent a good part of the winter series revalving and respringing to Glens satisfaction. I may add that Glen paid the standard retail price and there were no further charges for ongoing trackside development. It is evident that his feedback was excellent and he should really be collecting royalties on the subsequent ones I have built to order.

[Tim 39]

Gotta agree with ya Kirk

most people just call me Tim but thats alright :cool:

[Robert Taylor]

how much better are the ttx shocks over the 3 or 4 year old shocks, glenw and terrys over teh rest of the f3 feild and how much better are the forks you worked on in aussy over the current ones......
john

Oops, second answer. The stuff inside the Supersport 600 bikes is very very new but the teams using them are very happy even though it is in the early stages and a ''work in progress'' Probably available later in 09, I guess.

But the current FGK stuff is working very well and I would attribute 50% of the effort in smashing lap records being that we seem to have arrived at an excellent generic spec with these cartridges. I think Bugden, Stroud, Jones, Shirriffs, Cudlin, Charlett, Smart, Williams, Sadowski x 2, Smith, Cole, Lawrence and a few others will happily testify that they are delighted with the settings and performance. The very same spec we ''exported'' to Australia, check out Sean Giles result in the first round of Aussie Superbike champs over the weekend.

[Robert Taylor]

Gotta agree with ya Kirk

I second that

[Shaun]

most people just call me Tim but thats alright :cool:





NO KIRK-I do not fancy you:Playnice: Sorry there Tim:apint:

[Robert Taylor]

Get the youngsters onto dirt bikes. People that did alot of dirtbike riding when they where young all seem to have an edge over ones that didn't.

slowpoke I think I have a handle on your veiws now: There is no place for SV650s or ProTwin racing as New Zealand will never have any good racers if they learn to ride on these types of bikes right?




If I was to fit a 190 section Superbike tyre to my 4 1/5 inch SV rim which according to some tyre manufacturers is too narrow for a 160 section should I be allowed to race as this and potentually put other racers at risk with this unrecommended combination?.

Plenty of standard unmodified SVs do trackdays and surprisingly they crash or run off the track alot less than learners on bigger bikes.

I'm not trying to adopt a third world mentality. If the ProTwin class cost 1/2 what it does today to compete in it would become viable for alot more younger people who may otherwise go no further than Streetstock.

I really don't see it as a class for X New Zealand champions but a great class for riders without rich daddys or plenty of dispossable income to have a fair crack at racing and being competitive.

If anyone considers the class to budget they can always get a Supersport bike like others have done but most of them don't last long as theres too many expense crash repair bills.

Young guy starting out has a huge amount of expenses. Keep Protwin as cheap as possible and if someone wants to spend megabucks they can race in F3 or Supersport if they think they can meet the standard and not take out other riders.

If a rider makes a modest outlay to get an SV on the track and decides racing isn't for them then a complete ready to race package becomes available for someone else.

If there is a safety issue with SVs without emulators and aftermarket shocks is it not irresponsable for MNZ to allow these bikes on the track if they haven't been made potentually safe?

I agree about the dirtbikes.

But the trackday comparison isnt really apples for apples. In general riders at a trackday are not going to hang it out right to the edge so they wont load the chassis anywhere near as much and therefore expose the deficiencies of the suspension as readily.

You know, the pursuit of cheapness has perversely affected all of our lives. I made a derisory statement in a previous post stating that its 2008 and not 1978. But there were certain advantages in 1978. Back then when you walked into a ( locally owned ) hardware store to purchase a humble plastic bucket you bought something that was suitably thick and durable. Now you buy it at a big chain store that pays its staff mediocre wages, the thing is wafer thin, floppy and made in a country that would be best left to only making rice and firecrackers. Sure its cheap but youve got to handle it with kid gloves even as you are transporting it home, and dont put anything heavy in it!

Maybe thats a poor comparison but if we keep convincing ourselves that everything must be cheap cheap and cheap then everything is going to be mediocre, aspiration will be suppressed and we wont rise above it all. Our failure at the Yachting and Rugby are ( arguably ) in part a reflection of the mediocre path this nation has been treading.

[Movistar]

You'll have to excuse my ignorance on this topic... but is it not feasable that a class is set up where riders lease their rides, all of which are the same type of machine, suspension, brakes, wheels tyres etc? Like the Porsche Cup.

Surely a manufacturer would get behind this along with other distributors to ensure the success of the class along with the ongoing development of the machine and most importantly the racer?

Maybe this has been tried before?

Seems like the fairest way of getting a control class, I know there are always those that 'bend' the rules and manage to find loopholes, that's never going to change, and to some degree nor should it, as that can sometimes be where a lot of the development comes from!

[Robert Taylor]

Sounds about write Rob RE costs of the equipment- I do fully agree with you on the learning curve involved in setting up suspension, BUT, ( Hope Some one else you know is not reading this) The whole idea ( Or so I believed) when the Pro Twins class idea came up, was as an introductory class for young riders:clap:

Yes, the standard sus on these bikes is not any thing to write home about, but the wheels do keep turning, if you do not crash them. AND WE ALL DRIVE IN THE RAIN ON OUR STANDARD CAR TYRES AND BIKE TYRES AND GET BY. Maybe, we can actually learn more?

SO, it is possible for the young riders (ie, as I thought, THE INTRODUCTORY CLASS) to actually get out there racing modern 4 Stroke bikes, and cutting there teeth for the move up to the 600 class, where the full Suspension options are available.

2K suspension
750 FAIRINGS
300 FAIRING BRACKETS
1000+ FULL RACE PIPE
350 MIN AFT MK FOOT PEGS


And I,ve just built a cheap one, based on todays rules?


Yeah, the interesting thing is that when you get to 600 or production superbike level almost all of the work done at the track is about tyres and suspension settings, in order to find lap times. Thats why I think its important to learn suspension set up skills BEFORE you get to that level i.e on bikes with a much less intimidating level of power that will be more forgiving if you get the settings wrong.

Perhaps that is why 125 riders have done so well when they have moved up, because they have had some adjustments to play with, and in their own way 125 setup is critical.

Get the setup wrong on especially a Superbike and it can bite you, so to reinforce my point, suspension set up skills must be commenced in junior classes....

[Robert Taylor]

Get the youngsters onto dirt bikes. People that did alot of dirtbike riding when they where young all seem to have an edge over ones that didn't.

slowpoke I think I have a handle on your veiws now: There is no place for SV650s or ProTwin racing as New Zealand will never have any good racers if they learn to ride on these types of bikes right?




If I was to fit a 190 section Superbike tyre to my 4 1/5 inch SV rim which according to some tyre manufacturers is too narrow for a 160 section should I be allowed to race as this and potentually put other racers at risk with this unrecommended combination?.

Plenty of standard unmodified SVs do trackdays and surprisingly they crash or run off the track alot less than learners on bigger bikes.

I'm not trying to adopt a third world mentality. If the ProTwin class cost 1/2 what it does today to compete in it would become viable for alot more younger people who may otherwise go no further than Streetstock.

I really don't see it as a class for X New Zealand champions but a great class for riders without rich daddys or plenty of dispossable income to have a fair crack at racing and being competitive.

If anyone considers the class to budget they can always get a Supersport bike like others have done but most of them don't last long as theres too many expense crash repair bills.

Young guy starting out has a huge amount of expenses. Keep Protwin as cheap as possible and if someone wants to spend megabucks they can race in F3 or Supersport if they think they can meet the standard and not take out other riders.

If a rider makes a modest outlay to get an SV on the track and decides racing isn't for them then a complete ready to race package becomes available for someone else.

If there is a safety issue with SVs without emulators and aftermarket shocks is it not irresponsable for MNZ to allow these bikes on the track if they haven't been made potentually safe?

An interesting aside......the local V8 saloon car class subscribes to a perverse mentality.

They have to run control carburetors, pretty perverse in 2008

They also have to run cheap and nasty control shocks. The problem being that they went for the cheapest nastiest Koni shocks. There is no damping in bump ( compression ) So to ''hold'' the cars up in their stroke they run otherwise rather overstiff springs meaning they dont kerbstrike so well. But also because there is no bump damping they have little or no g out resistance. Lateral stability is so bad that they are sort of held firm by aggressive anti rollbar settings. Because the spring force is so high at ''full closed'' the rebound damping has to be very stiff / aggressive. Such very stiff damping builds shock heat VERY quickly especially on bumpy tracks such as Pukekohe. Fade happens very quickly and to watch these cars wobble around Pukekohe is woeful. When damping is so restricted hysterisis or delay in damping build up occurs, the shock cavitates inside. It may as well be full of air.

I know of at least one team that has spare sets of shocks that are refigerated and installed just prior to race start so that it gives the car a precious advantage for another lap or so before the dreaded fade sets in.

These shocks are also breaking all the time, irrespective of the stock car nature of this class. Cheap suspension, I think not. Some higher level and stronger shocks with proper bump damping curve, softer springing and some responsive external adjustments would actually save money over the course of a season or two, and the tyres wouldnt be overstressed so readily. Moreover the drivers and crews would be learning proper set up skills rather than fudging it.

[Robert Taylor]

You'll have to excuse my ignorance on this topic... but is it not feasable that a class is set up where riders lease their rides, all of which are the same type of machine, suspension, brakes, wheels tyres etc? Like the Porsche Cup.

Surely a manufacturer would get behind this along with other distributors to ensure the success of the class along with the ongoing development of the machine and most importantly the racer?

Maybe this has been tried before?

Seems like the fairest way of getting a control class, I know there are always those that 'bend' the rules and manage to find loopholes, that's never going to change, and to some degree nor should it, as that can sometimes be where a lot of the development comes from!

Yes it has been tried before but for whatever reasons that I am less than familiar with it wasnt subscibed well enough to continue. To a degree I think it may possibly challenge the argument that its all about cost????

[evol mas]

i think the pro twin class is great!!! just leave it how it is !! i have ridden with the standard suspension and it is crap but also raceable to a certian extent but personaly i think the shock is good bang for ya buck!! if you realy want something you will put everything asside to get it!! i am a 19 year old apprentice electrican therefore dont have the best income. i got a 10 grand loan from the bank to purchase my k7 sv650 and sold almost everything i owned to purchase all the preformance parts needed including my roadbike:crybaby: i dont spend any money on anything but my bike and riding/racing it. the point im trying to make is if i can afford it anyone can!! if you realy want to win you will make sacrafices NO EXCUSES!! unfortunatly i had a get together with the tirewall at ruapuna and broke my ankle otherwize i would have been at the pointy end of the feild. i think this class is a good class for learning this was my first season racing and toward the end of the winter series i was up there with glen williams (im sure he was just playing tho) and have recently gained a ride with the verry generious shaun harris riding his 600.(big thanks to every one whos helped along the way)and well done to Karl M on the tittle

[Ivan]

Yeah, the interesting thing is that when you get to 600 or production superbike level almost all of the work done at the track is about tyres and suspension settings, in order to find lap times. Thats why I think its important to learn suspension set up skills BEFORE you get to that level i.e on bikes with a much less intimidating level of power that will be more forgiving if you get the settings wrong.

Perhaps that is why 125 riders have done so well when they have moved up, because they have had some adjustments to play with, and in their own way 125 setup is critical.

Get the setup wrong on especially a Superbike and it can bite you, so to reinforce my point, suspension set up skills must be commenced in junior classes....


I agree on 125, I learned a few things atmanfield for the 125to play withf rom Shaun which helped alot people think 125s high maintenace bicycles

But they do require crucial settings to get them seconds.
Like putting later model forks in cause they have less travel gave the bike alot better feeling under brakes and on acceleration.
But then I was finding issues of the tire looking like it wasnt wearing properly turns out i had the preload on rear spring to soft.

But I agree with the fact you need to learn these things before getting on a 600 even on a 125 if you dont get these right youl find your going down

[slowpoke]

slowpoke I think I have a handle on your veiws now: There is no place for SV650s or ProTwin racing as New Zealand will never have any good racers if they learn to ride on these types of bikes right?


Not quite right. I love the idea of F3 just being a free for all, with weird and wonderful machinery coming to the fore and lateral thinking being rewarded. It hasn't totally worked out like that but hopefully things will change. Something needs to be in place for the Ken Macintosh's and John Britten's etc to let their imaginations run riot.

Pro Twins on the other hand is in a bit of no-mans land as far as I am concerned. There are already cheap options to get involved in racing and this is just another one to further dilute the quality of the field in the higher classes. Sure racers will learn some good stuff from the class but I just feel that we need to encourage racers to get into the premier classes where they will learn more, sooner.

NZ racers are already penalised by having to jump through a few extra hoops to "make it" on the world stage, and our Supersport and Superbike spec's are very low tech compared to most countries, so we need to give as much exposure to the little technology and the best race bikes we have as soon as possible.

Hey, I could be wrong, in fact according to my Mrs I usually am. My hat is most definitely off to anyone who is out there and racing no matter what they ride.

[GSVR]

i think the pro twin class is great!!! just leave it how it is !! i have ridden with the standard suspension and it is crap but also raceable to a certian extent but personaly i think the shock is good bang for ya buck!! if you realy want something you will put everything asside to get it!! i am a 19 year old apprentice electrican therefore dont have the best income. i got a 10 grand loan from the bank to purchase my k7 sv650 and sold almost everything i owned to purchase all the preformance parts needed including my roadbike:crybaby: i dont spend any money on anything but my bike and riding/racing it. the point im trying to make is if i can afford it anyone can!! if you realy want to win you will make sacrafices NO EXCUSES!! unfortunatly i had a get together with the tirewall at ruapuna and broke my ankle otherwize i would have been at the pointy end of the feild. i think this class is a good class for learning this was my first season racing and toward the end of the winter series i was up there with glen williams (im sure he was just playing tho) and have recently gained a ride with the verry generious shaun harris riding his 600.(big thanks to every one whos helped along the way)and well done to Karl M on the tittle

Bad luck on your ankle Sam. Don't have to say anything about your commitment to racing. But wow look at the sacrifices your've made. (10 grand loan and selling your roadbike). How many others made that effort?
Certainly not enough and now next season your not even going to race in ProTwin?

The cost of getting emulators and a good shock is not great when you look at total running costs. But all these things add up and what we are ending up with is just a lower spec F3 bike.

Doesn't matter how the rules went you'd still have some sort of debate. Like if powercommanders wets and tyre warmers were also not allowed there'd be people saying this is not right. Also if engines had to have a seal placed on them and only routine maintenace allowed to be carried out thered be an outcry from those that wanted to slot the cams and raise the compression then spend a few hundred on Dyno time to dail it all in....

Good luck in Supersport!


Not quite right. I love the idea of F3 just being a free for all, with weird and wonderful machinery coming to the fore and lateral thinking being rewarded. It hasn't totally worked out like that but hopefully things will change. Something needs to be in place for the Ken Macintosh's and John Britten's etc to let their imaginations run riot.

F3 is certainly not a free for all with some very restrictive rules concerning mainly the 4 valve twins. Considerations when building an F3 bike is how far you can take stuff without actually breaking the current interpretation of the rulebook.

The more I learn about F3 rules the less I seem to understand them.

Things like your not allowed to use race motors unless they come out of a dirtbike.
Airbox and filter must be OEM but you can do stuff to increase airflow?.
If you have a 250 twostroke you can't use 250GP parts on it.

And the very first paragraph of rules is one that really has me scratching my head.

And yes I am whinging online but is whats happening really doing the sport any good? Seems to me that what seems to have been an entry level low budget class is now a completely different beast. Lets hope the same thing doesn't happen to the Protwin class with more and more mods allowed until it becomes a very high tech expensive class..

[svr]

i think the pro twin class is great!!! just leave it how it is !! i have ridden with the standard suspension and it is crap but also raceable to a certian extent but personaly i think the shock is good bang for ya buck!! if you realy want something you will put everything asside to get it!! i am a 19 year old apprentice electrican therefore dont have the best income. i got a 10 grand loan from the bank to purchase my k7 sv650 and sold almost everything i owned to purchase all the preformance parts needed including my roadbike:crybaby: i dont spend any money on anything but my bike and riding/racing it. the point im trying to make is if i can afford it anyone can!! if you realy want to win you will make sacrafices NO EXCUSES!! unfortunatly i had a get together with the tirewall at ruapuna and broke my ankle otherwize i would have been at the pointy end of the feild. i think this class is a good class for learning this was my first season racing and toward the end of the winter series i was up there with glen williams (im sure he was just playing tho) and have recently gained a ride with the verry generious shaun harris riding his 600.(big thanks to every one whos helped along the way)and well done to Karl M on the tittle

Horay for Sam! - ProTwins is perfect because its accessible no matter what your station in life - if you want to do it badly enough you can find a way, and if you're any good it will show - can we agree on that? Motorbike racing should be grass-roots accessible i.e. its not `priviliged rich-boy' car racing and thank god for that. Sorry Robert your interests in this discussion diverge sharply from the racers who dont want to have to choose between the latest set of forks or food / rent etc. That is not `third world mentality' that is reality.
Yes 125's are great but most people dont fit / want to ride more normal bikes and No ProTwins wont produce proffesional level skills but it does has the potential to grow the general sport of roadracing which will cast a wider net for young talent who can then move on up e.g. Sam Love.
Lets stop bitching and get out and support the class!

[FROSTY]

Question here folks --why did 250 production have the biggest entry levels of any class back in the 80's?
Yes those at the pointy end were stripping their bikes and "optimising" them
On the whole you could rock into a bike shop friday arvo.
spend saturday doing the legal stuff--sump wiring etc then race it on sunday.

[FROSTY]

Of course someone could PERSONALLY sponsor a class at their own club.
Say ohh I dunno --650 production.

[Shaun]

I think the discussion on this class has been great so far really, and then we get input from SAM LOVE on it, ( ANd other riders) who is committed and has spent his own money Clap Clap Clap Powl:calm:

Fact, if you want to race just for fun? Stay in the club champs! Cheep cheep cheep

But if you want to give yourself the best shot, at turning your game of racing into a profession, like Dom Jones etc, step up to plate sorry crew, just as Sam and others have done!

Example of going racing seriously

I only ever started 21 races in NEW ZEALAND before I left, and went and moved to Japan, and tried to get a team to race for over there.
I had purchased a NEW Suzuki GSXR 750 which I raced in the first round of the WSB at manfeild, and trashed it DOH
I had spent a fortune on mod tuning the motor and suspension etc, as well as buying the bike, when I left to go to Japan, I owed $25-000 this was back in 1989 :bash:

POINT BEING

AS Sam said, IF YOU WANT IT BAD ENOUGH, JUST GO AND GET IT.

SAM, your example is a huge part of why I have committed to support you on 600's mate

Commitment Commitment Proud to be a part of your future dude:clap:

[HenryDorsetCase]

Yeah, the interesting thing is that when you get to 600 or production superbike level almost all of the work done at the track is about tyres and suspension settings, in order to find lap times. Thats why I think its important to learn suspension set up skills BEFORE you get to that level i.e on bikes with a much less intimidating level of power that will be more forgiving if you get the settings wrong.

Perhaps that is why 125 riders have done so well when they have moved up, because they have had some adjustments to play with, and in their own way 125 setup is critical.

Get the setup wrong on especially a Superbike and it can bite you, so to reinforce my point, suspension set up skills must be commenced in junior classes....

How does one learn these suspension setup skills? Presumably a lot of it is from the "suck it and see" approach? Ooooh what happens if I turn this?

Surely there must be some background material available so we can find out whats happening, then what the controls do, then how altering them will affect performance. Then try it out and see how it works.... I think its called the scientific method: develop a hypothesis, test it, evaluate conclusions....

[Shaun]

How does one learn these suspension setup skills? Presumably a lot of it is from the "suck it and see" approach? Ooooh what happens if I turn this?


I fully agree with you on this one!

Surely there must be some background material available so we can find out whats happening, then what the controls do, then how altering them will affect performance. Then try it out and see how it works.... I think its called the scientific method: develop a hypothesis, test it, evaluate conclusions....

There is so much back ground material out there to read, that after most have read it, they are more confused than when they started, the we get WEB SITES with so called experts, who tell ya all what to do, and like sheep, some follow.

I am a true believer, in adjust and ride your self, ( Very IMPORTANT to record start settings, and all other adjustments, so you can go back if need be) and write your self a pile of notes of how the bike fealt different, and keep trying.

[codgyoleracer]

There is so much back ground material out there to read, that after most have read it, they are more confused than when they started, the we get WEB SITES with so called experts, who tell ya all what to do, and like sheep, some follow.

I am a true believer, in adjust and ride your self, ( Very IMPORTANT to record start settings, and all other adjustments, so you can go back if need be) and write your self a pile of notes of how the bike fealt different, and keep trying.

I support Shauns comment, - Write EVERYTHING down suspensionwise. Other things also have an effect, condition of tyres, condition of track, track temp & day temp, Your own mind-set on the day etc etc.
I great deal of club racers do not seem to bother with recording settings (be it with stock suspension or aftermarket stuff) & analyzing that afterwards (or the next time your at the same track). The problem is that there is a plethora of reasons why you might go at XYZ speed around a race track, - but in a class such as pro-twins where modifications are limited & the machine performance is very close - getting the bike "dialled in" as quickly as possible will help eek out that little bit of an advantage that might help you stay ahead of the others.
GlenW

[FROSTY]

What they said--Im gobsmacksed that a lot of folk dont have a log book
information like tyres ,gearing,fuel load,suspension settings just don't seem to be recorded.

[Maarty]

Sorry to wade in late boys, but i agree with Shaun and Glen, Robert too, if you saw the amount of notes and data we record over a weekends racing on our 125 it would astound you! It takes me the rest of the week to sort through it and then Ken and i discuss it prior to the next event. As a general rule we have gone faster at each sucessive event and scored our first win in dominant style at manfeild. It wasn,t because we had the fastest bike or spent the most money, it was because Ken did his homework (as every 16yo should!) The same applies to pro-twins, superbikes even buckets! It takes more than a shock or a pipe to win, but they will help if you have done your homework with them!

[quallman1234]

Sorry to wade in late boys, but i agree with Shaun and Glen, Robert too, if you saw the amount of notes and data we record over a weekends racing on our 125 it would astound you! It takes me the rest of the week to sort through it and then Ken and i discuss it prior to the next event. As a general rule we have gone faster at each sucessive event and scored our first win in dominant style at manfeild. It wasn,t because we had the fastest bike or spent the most money, it was because Ken did his homework (as every 16yo should!) The same applies to pro-twins, superbikes even buckets! It takes more than a shock or a pipe to win, but they will help if you have done your homework with them!

Totally agree with ya there :clap:.

[svr]

Poor kid - Notes... Homework all week.. jeez VB it was a lot more fun in old days!

[Maarty]

T'was cookie, but I see they are still pulling the same old pranks on the way to and around Queenstown as we used to! Right down to the eggs!
Seems somethings are still fun!
Anyway, gotta make the little bugga work for his supper and lately he has been eating well, I even get some of the leftovers too!
Great as well, if I get bored with him I can give him back, not like he is mine!!!!!

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Hey, get the gixxer front end off and keep racing in pro-twins Cookie, its gonna be fun racing with ya!

[Keystone19]

Great as well, if I get bored with him I can give him back, not like he is mine!!!!!

Oh you're soooo mean Marty - I'm gonna tell young Ken just what you've been saying about him on Friday...

And just in case you were wondering, I wouldn't have any idea who might have egged your van, none at all.

[Maarty]

Oh you're soooo mean Marty - I'm gonna tell young Ken just what you've been saying about him on Friday...

And just in case you were wondering, I wouldn't have any idea who might have egged your van, none at all.

Squealer!

I know who did it, I know who snitched and and I also know the boy had to clean it 5 times!

Ask Cookie, we were real men back in the old days, didn't even clean our vans! Tough eh!

Ask Dave Cole about his transit, probably racing folklore by now, or ask Cookie about Matt Calahans van or Brett Richmonds, ah, those very the days (bubbles forming above forehead and pan-flute background music playing)

[Shaun]

Squealer!

I know who did it, I know who snitched and and I also know the boy had to clean it 5 times!

Ask Cookie, we were real men back in the old days, didn't even clean our vans! Tough eh!

Ask Dave Cole about his transit, probably racing folklore by now, or ask Cookie about Matt Calahans van or Brett Richmonds, ah, those very the days (bubbles forming above forehead and pan-flute background music playing)



Luckily things have changed a bit MartY. I do recall a freight chain of 4 vans, all full of bikes and riders etc, and the last time I looked at my speedo, JUST BEFORE GETTING CRASHED INTO FROM BEHIND AGAIN I was doing 90mph:beer:


Stroudy was a bit upset with all the dents I left in his van that night, Haldane retired! Crafer left the country- and I'm still here:whistle:

[Hellraiser]

Well according to Paul Stewart if the pro twins are mixed with the F3 at a race meet then I am unable to enter my SXV.

Can't wait till the class is big enough to have it's own races ......... then i'm in with a grin :laugh:

[Robert Taylor]

Oh you're soooo mean Marty - I'm gonna tell young Ken just what you've been saying about him on Friday...

And just in case you were wondering, I wouldn't have any idea who might have egged your van, none at all.

And no idea who placed the Tainui number plate surround on my trailer by any chance? Btw it survived the trip all the way back from Invergiggles to NP. Removal has now been comprehensively effected but I have had trouble finding a surround that shows what tribe I am from!

[Robert Taylor]

Squealer!

I know who did it, I know who snitched and and I also know the boy had to clean it 5 times!

Ask Cookie, we were real men back in the old days, didn't even clean our vans! Tough eh!

Ask Dave Cole about his transit, probably racing folklore by now, or ask Cookie about Matt Calahans van or Brett Richmonds, ah, those very the days (bubbles forming above forehead and pan-flute background music playing)

In your case Maarty it was probably banjo music.............

[GSVR]

And no idea who placed the Tainui number plate surround on my trailer by any chance? Btw it survived the trip all the way back from Invergiggles to NP. Removal has now been comprehensively effected but I have had trouble finding a surround that shows what tribe I am from!

You are going to be putting Labour party stickers on it soon with the general election looming.

[Robert Taylor]

Horay for Sam! - ProTwins is perfect because its accessible no matter what your station in life - if you want to do it badly enough you can find a way, and if you're any good it will show - can we agree on that? Motorbike racing should be grass-roots accessible i.e. its not `priviliged rich-boy' car racing and thank god for that. Sorry Robert your interests in this discussion diverge sharply from the racers who dont want to have to choose between the latest set of forks or food / rent etc. That is not `third world mentality' that is reality.
Yes 125's are great but most people dont fit / want to ride more normal bikes and No ProTwins wont produce proffesional level skills but it does has the potential to grow the general sport of roadracing which will cast a wider net for young talent who can then move on up e.g. Sam Love.
Lets stop bitching and get out and support the class!

I stand to correct you because having been consulted re suspension when the rules were drawn up I personally recommended that only emulators and springs would be allowed in the forks ( for damper rod type forks, SV650 etc ) and that aftermarket cartridges would be strictly prohibited. This was mindful of keeping the costs at a reasonable level. I therefore stress that there is no divergence of view with the mainstream, and in fact the views expressed against any such mods at all are in fact coming from a vocal minority.

[Robert Taylor]

You are going to be putting Labour party stickers on it soon with the general election looming.

Id walk on broken glass barefoot first before EVER doing such a thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Robert Taylor]

I think the discussion on this class has been great so far really, and then we get input from SAM LOVE on it, ( ANd other riders) who is committed and has spent his own money Clap Clap Clap Powl:calm:

Fact, if you want to race just for fun? Stay in the club champs! Cheep cheep cheep

But if you want to give yourself the best shot, at turning your game of racing into a profession, like Dom Jones etc, step up to plate sorry crew, just as Sam and others have done!

Example of going racing seriously

I only ever started 21 races in NEW ZEALAND before I left, and went and moved to Japan, and tried to get a team to race for over there.
I had purchased a NEW Suzuki GSXR 750 which I raced in the first round of the WSB at manfeild, and trashed it DOH
I had spent a fortune on mod tuning the motor and suspension etc, as well as buying the bike, when I left to go to Japan, I owed $25-000 this was back in 1989 :bash:

POINT BEING

AS Sam said, IF YOU WANT IT BAD ENOUGH, JUST GO AND GET IT.

SAM, your example is a huge part of why I have committed to support you on 600's mate

Commitment Commitment Proud to be a part of your future dude:clap:

Ditto re Sam and your comments about committment

[Robert Taylor]

How does one learn these suspension setup skills? Presumably a lot of it is from the "suck it and see" approach? Ooooh what happens if I turn this?

Surely there must be some background material available so we can find out whats happening, then what the controls do, then how altering them will affect performance. Then try it out and see how it works.... I think its called the scientific method: develop a hypothesis, test it, evaluate conclusions....

I will comment back on this when I have some more time.

[GSVR]

I class my self as one of the vocal few. But I would have liked a one set of rims rule (no wets), a control tyre (perhaps class sponsorship), standard rear subframes only, no tyre warmers, fairings only OEM replica .....

Basically like Streetstock but with a few neccessary mods.

Im still fine with the rules as they are but from the veiwpoint of someone looking at going racing for the first time theres quite a bit more to it than just wire up your sump plug fit a catch bottle and go racing.

The rules as they are are great for National level racing but it appears to me over 90% of all racing in NZ is at Club level and guys with fast club bikes opting not to do the nationals.

[johnsv650]

hi,
rules for protwins are standard rear subframes, no light aluminium ones.....standard means standard......

[GSVR]

hi,
rules for protwins are standard rear subframes, no light aluminium ones.....standard means standard......

Thanks I just read and the rules and theres only mention of the front subframe that makes sense as not everyone buys a bike with a front fairing.

[Ivan]

Were are the rules I have been trying to find them

[svr]

I stand to correct you because having been consulted re suspension when the rules were drawn up I personally recommended that only emulators and springs would be allowed in the forks ( for damper rod type forks, SV650 etc ) and that aftermarket cartridges would be strictly prohibited. This was mindful of keeping the costs at a reasonable level. I therefore stress that there is no divergence of view with the mainstream, and in fact the views expressed against any such mods at all are in fact coming from a vocal minority.

Sorry Robert maybe a misunderstanding - I actually agree with the level of mods for forks (so thanks for advising that way - altough emulators seem to make bugger-all difference) My general slant was that the generall costs of motoracing are elitist, prohibitive and exclude actual and potential talent - Maybe the `Kiwi way' (3rd worldish?) is to have hordes of ex-junior motoxers / bucket / 150 racers etc out there banging handlebars on $6k bikes i.e. having a go on e-bay sv's and finding out if they've got what it takes? We've got to get them out there which to my mind is the primary function of the class.

[FROSTY]

BINGO--A class to get the fire in their belly about racing.

[Robert Taylor]

I class my self as one of the vocal few. But I would have liked a one set of rims rule (no wets), a control tyre (perhaps class sponsorship), standard rear subframes only, no tyre warmers, fairings only OEM replica .....

Basically like Streetstock but with a few neccessary mods.

Im still fine with the rules as they are but from the veiwpoint of someone looking at going racing for the first time theres quite a bit more to it than just wire up your sump plug fit a catch bottle and go racing.

The rules as they are are great for National level racing but it appears to me over 90% of all racing in NZ is at Club level and guys with fast club bikes opting not to do the nationals.

Some of what you said in paragraph 1 makes sense.

Road racing is irrefutably a technical sport and if people want everything to be dead easy then there are other sporting codes, cold hard reality.

With respect to racing the nationals I think there is one factor that is a major pain in the butt that automatically rules out a lot of riders....the cost of getting to and fro over that piece of water.

[Robert Taylor]

Sorry Robert maybe a misunderstanding - I actually agree with the level of mods for forks (so thanks for advising that way - altough emulators seem to make bugger-all difference) My general slant was that the generall costs of motoracing are elitist, prohibitive and exclude actual and potential talent - Maybe the `Kiwi way' (3rd worldish?) is to have hordes of ex-junior motoxers / bucket / 150 racers etc out there banging handlebars on $6k bikes i.e. having a go on e-bay sv's and finding out if they've got what it takes? We've got to get them out there which to my mind is the primary function of the class.

Thanks. With emulators ( and dare I say this ) there are a lot being fitted and not set up very well, done properly they make a significant difference. I can certainly vouch for my customers being happy. There are setting options with the rate of the poppet springs ( 4 rate options available ), the preload turns on the poppet and the bleed hole ( low speed bypass bleed ) in the poppet itself. Main spring rate, preload, oil viscosity and oil level being the other normal tuning factors.
If there is one thing that Race Tech are aguably guilty of its perpetuating the myth that anyone can rework their suspension. Well, in truth theres a hell of a lot of ham fisted suspension component fitters out there. Glad they dont work on aircraft....
I think standby and see where pro-twins heads. Ive got orders in progress for more people entering the class.

[Kickaha]

With respect to racing the nationals I think there is one factor that is a major pain in the butt that automatically rules out a lot of riders....the cost of getting to and fro over that piece of water.

Depends on how you do it, if you are organised and book far enough ahead the crossing isn't that expensive and through MNZ you can sometimes get a useful discount

For the Transit and one person $128 each way with the cheap crossings, unlike us carting the sidecar a van could otherwise hold two bikes and riders and the cost can be split

There is also the option if you book far enough ahead of paying it in installments

[Robert Taylor]

How does one learn these suspension setup skills? Presumably a lot of it is from the "suck it and see" approach? Ooooh what happens if I turn this?

Surely there must be some background material available so we can find out whats happening, then what the controls do, then how altering them will affect performance. Then try it out and see how it works.... I think its called the scientific method: develop a hypothesis, test it, evaluate conclusions....

I think with the suck it and see approach you have to be ever mindful that you are playing with the safety of the rider and others in the vicinity. There is as Shaun intimated a lot of background reading material available in either hard copy, software, net etc.
As for the level that I have got to , well, 10s of thousands of dollars to and from Stockholm and a few trips to the US, and to Italy. Throw in a Race Tech course at $1500 or so. Education costs, costs and costs. ( and I really wonder what the true return on that has been ) This all gives you a grounding but so much of it is empirical knowledge from ongoing and lengthy experience. That stuff there is just no textbooks about.

If you do a Race Tech course ( another one happening in NZ later this year ) it gives you a good insight into the basics and therefore heightens your understanding. But make you an instant technician it does not.

This is very definitely NOT a proffession where you go home at 5pm every day and just shut off, if you are involved at the sharp end it becomes all consuming and a way of life. You probably have to in effect be a little insane.

[Shaun]

This is very definitely NOT a proffession where you go home at 5pm every day and just shut off, if you are involved at the sharp end it becomes all consuming and a way of life. You probably have to in effect be a little insane.


Home, 5PM, shut off EH- Would ya talk engrish dam ya- and turn my cell phone, email address, Pm address off as well please:laugh:

PS, next time I come around to your house after hours to collect work you have done for me- just stop talking so I can go home and shut off would ya:doh:

[Robert Taylor]

Home, 5PM, shut off EH- Would ya talk engrish dam ya- and turn my cell phone, email address, Pm address off as well please:laugh:

PS, next time I come around to your house after hours to collect work you have done for me- just stop talking so I can go home and shut off would ya:doh:

I ''included you'' when I used that insane word!

[codgyoleracer]

With respect to racing the nationals I think there is one factor that is a major pain in the butt that automatically rules out a lot of riders....the cost of getting to and fro over that piece of water.[/QUOTE]

A bit off topic (but definatly related to lower cost budget style (protwin) racing). The trip across the water is more the time away cost than the piece of water crossed. Unless ones family is happy to treat it as a "racing holiday" & this eases the cost a little.
I did talk to MNZ about running a mid week option round - effectivly keeping the three round series in the south spread over two weekends (10 days or so). This years split rounds up north must be a pain for the Mainlanders aye........
(Of course they do charge extra for Blue trailers Robert, - there is still a strong union content on the rail ferries aye.............:-)

[Robert Taylor]

With respect to racing the nationals I think there is one factor that is a major pain in the butt that automatically rules out a lot of riders....the cost of getting to and fro over that piece of water.

A bit off topic (but definatly related to lower cost budget style (protwin) racing). The trip across the water is more the time away cost than the piece of water crossed. Unless ones family is happy to treat it as a "racing holiday" & this eases the cost a little.
I did talk to MNZ about running a mid week option round - effectivly keeping the three round series in the south spread over two weekends (10 days or so). This years split rounds up north must be a pain for the Mainlanders aye........
(Of course they do charge extra for Blue trailers Robert, - there is still a strong union content on the rail ferries aye.............:-)[/QUOTE]

You just concentrate on winning that title this weekend! Everything will be blue again soon, thats wonderful.

[Shaun]

I ''included you'' when I used that insane word!



Thanks Darling

[skypig]

Were are the rules I have been trying to find them
__________________
Ivan Juggins:

http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/download/Appendix_F_650_ProTwin.pdf

Does that help ?

SP:eek:

[FROSTY]

You just concentrate on winning that title this weekend! Everything will be blue again soon, thats wonderful.
Sorry to tell ya robert but more likely itll be green and pink

[Robert Taylor]

Sorry to tell ya robert but more likely itll be green and pink

Im sure you like winding up my tory sentiments Frosty! Mate, if that discarded extra from the rocky horror show gets another term we are knackered....:argh:

[Keystone19]

You just concentrate on winning that title this weekend! Everything will be blue again soon, thats wonderful.

Hahahahahhahahahahahahaha...you are dreaming (again).

[svr]

Were are the rules I have been trying to find them
__________________
Ivan Juggins:

http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/download/Appendix_F_650_ProTwin.pdf

Does that help ?

SP:eek:

So many rules! You have to remove lights, indicators, grab rail, modify chain guard, number-plate holder, passenger pegs etc.... Whats the problem with duct-tape anyway?
Cookie

[speedpro]

Were are the rules I have been trying to find them
__________________
Ivan Juggins:

http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/download/Appendix_F_650_ProTwin.pdf

Does that help ?

SP:eek:

That is the most poorly worded set of rules I have ever read. The english makes no sense let alone the actual rules they are trying to put into words.

[steve74]

I really respect your point of view Frosty from your experience. I too agree that power commanders, full exhaust sysyems and full f/g fairings were the wrong alley to go up and unneccessarily increases the cost of building a p/twin by a couple of grand BUT we have to look forward and not back.

I was at the MNZ AGM last year and attended the Road race Workshop. I too am looking at a pro twin and was pretty gutted when i heard paul stewart announced the rules for pro twins. Full exhaust systems and power comanders and suspension mods just seemed to hike up the cost as far as i was concerned but he justified each of the mods and i am comfortable with the rules.
1.
Full fairings had to be allowed as some manufactures bikes have them as standard and some dont, giving those produced with a fairing an aerodynamic advantage.
2.
Power commanders had to be used as carb models can be tuned and EFI models cant, therefore the older machines without EFI would be at an advantage.
3.
aftermarket rear shocks are allowed as tyre wear on production tyres with standard suspension is dodgie. (something learned from production superbike days)

so i can see both sides of the coin. I cant wait to go protwin racing, just cant find a 2003+ sv650 model for sale her in the south island!!!

[johnsv650]

hi, there was a er6 for $2600 a couple of weeks ago, forks were only slighty bent, good buy that one......watch turners and trademe

[FROSTY]

I was at the MNZ AGM last year and attended the Road race Workshop. I too am looking at a pro twin and was pretty gutted when i heard paul announce the rules for pro twins. Full exhaust systems and power comanders and suspension mods just seemed to hike up the cost as far as i was concerned but he justified each of the mods.
1.
Full fairings had to be allowed as some manufactures bikes have them as standard and some dont, giving those produced with a fairing an aerodynamic advantage.
2.
Power commanders had to be used as carb models can be tuned and EFI models cant, therefore the older machines without EFI would be at an advantage.
3.
aftermarket rear shocks are allowed as tyre wear on production tyres with standard suspension is dodgie. (something learned from production superbike days)

so i can see both sides of the coin. I cant wait to go protwin racing, just cant find a 2003+ model for sale her in the south island!!!
And theres the stupidity of it
1) EVERY pro twins eligable bike has a faired version--er6,sv650,hyusung---barr 1 the raptor--big deal--how many raptors are racing pro twins??
2)they should have checked the HP figues first. Carbed SV's without the majic cam swap or a barrel skim aint putting out the HP the factory injected models do -70hp WITH pipe and cam etc
3)I concede that BUT they could have introduced control shocks Im sure eg a base level ohlins or penske

[steve74]

agreed frosty, a controll shock would put a cap on things. as robert explained earlier, you could spend up to $17,000 on your suspension if you like. i would just rather race on a safe $1600 shock than a dodgie standard one. by the time you try set up a gsxr shock to fit you might as well go ohlins/penske etc, etc.


- Now i was planning on racing in Pro Twins this year on an Aprilia SXV5.5 now as far as i am aware and have been told there is nothing stopping me from doing so

i think you will find there is the max 900mm handle bar height as well as a "no off road derived frame" rule. we had to look at this long and hard for our greymouth street race last year. Nothing to stop you putting it in another chassis i guess.

[GSVR]

Heres an interesting read by someone who knows alot about preparing 600 and 1000 bikes!

http://www.vicclub.co.nz/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=384

[FROSTY]

Yup Red might just have a couple of clues. BUT this is exactly the rules -barr hp cap I proposed for pro twins

[Deano]

Bigger balls ....priceless.

[Cleve]

Yup Red might just have a couple of clues. BUT this is exactly the rules -barr hp cap I proposed for pro twins

Give it a rest Tony! Don't you read what others say? HP cap just CANNOT be monitored fairly and accurately in NZ...

[FROSTY]

Give it a rest Tony! Don't you read what others say? HP cap just CANNOT be monitored fairly and accurately in NZ...
You leave it alone---read what I posted--what I proposed.
Incidently that was almost 2 years ago I started suggesting 650 production

[Cleve]

--read what I posted--what I proposed.


I did Tony... I did... I did Tony... I did...

[FROSTY]

I did Tony... I did... I did Tony... I did...
awright awready--hehehe---

[GSVR]

Cant seem to get into the MNZ website to reread Paul Stewarts original letter RE the introduction of the Pro twins class,But from memory his thinking was to introduce the class this year and then over a period of time(not specified) it would replace F3.As far as a low level feeder class is concerned things got out of hand with the introduction of suspension mods,Power commanders,Full exhaust systems,Full bodykits and so on.As a feeder class it should be,Standard roadbike with replica fibreglass if required,Sticky tyres and a slip on muffler only.Everything else bar fork oil and gearing should have been left standard.I know theres gonna be people out there who disagree citing safety etc.But if everybody is in the same boat then costs are reduced dramatically and its down to the rider to win the races not somebodys cheque book.As far as safety is concerned,A motorcycle is only as dangerous as you make it and it would be a brave person who said nobody ever crashes while using Ohlins/Whitepower/Penske etc.A lot of people I spoke to were keen to enter the Pro twins class until the the final rules were released and they saw how expensive it was gonna be.Sam Love spent in excess of $20,000.00 buiding a bike that could have been built for less than $10,000.00 under the above rules and $10,000.00 buys a shitload of tyres/travel/accomodation etc.I wonder how many would have been on the grid at Ruapuna under the above format.Food for thought

This is a very good post and it seems to have just gone unnoticed while others tried to justify the need for all the mods introduced in the interests of safety, tyre wear. engine tuning. Good thing a brake expert wasn't consulted or everyone would have to fit Brembos so the riders don't crash into one another due to poor brakes.